Even less reason (for RD),

You wrongly assume that your child won't have peers at SL. You can't take the scores of the lowest performing students (many who are trapped in the terrible welfare mentally perpetrated by a certain party in this country) and try to make it sound as if none of the parents at SL are involved. It just isn't so and everyone, including the CAPS' suit judge, knows that.

Wrong way around, you still don't get it. You ignore the elephant in the room - socioeconomics. You can have limited English kids at Oakton whose parents are doctor immigrants or who are from high-achieving Asian families. They don't compare with the children of day-laborer parents from Mexico. The best way to gauge achievement in our area is to compare the scores of white students, because they tend to predominantly middle class in our area, thus are the best subgroup to compare. Those comparisons clearly show that SL and Oakton or SL and Madison are equal.

The bottom line is that a middle-class child with involved parents can get a fine education at ANY Fairfax County school. No one is being asked to suffer; however, that will not prevent some of the pain and suffering caused to parents who lose the 'social status' that comes from attending an 'Oakton' vs a 'SL.' There is this really weird type A notion in our area that your neighborhood and your school defines who you are. If you know who you are, you need no school sweatshirt to tell the world so. That is the crux of the anti-RD case, in a nutshell.

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> While it may not be acceptable to you, my point
> was your child's SAT won't decrease simply because
> they are now in a different school.
>


So why run our own school system? Lets just send all the kids to DC, their system would love the investment. Or close down TJ/Langley and send all the kids to SL. School environment matters and that's why people make sacrifices to send their kids to schools where the dominant culture is a strong emphasis on educational effort and achievement.


> And folks at SL I assume do have the desire for
> educational achievement, they might just not be at
> the same starting point as your family in terms of
> current income and educational background.

Its clear that many families at SL are ambitious and dedicated to their children's education and I believe that they were the one's championing the RD process which was unleashed on their neighbors.

But overall, I would have accepted your argument in 1960 - but we're now many decades into intensive funding of high quality universal education and widespread access to expensive special programs.

I gather that the SL perspective was that adding more lower-income or ESL kids to South Lakes would increase the socio-economic disparity between SL and surrounding schools even more. I don't think there was any personal animus against the McNair community. In fact, from what I heard at the public hearings, SL parents were also trying to help the McNair students by not pooling too many needy kids in one place - and I think McNair kids are much better served in their current situation.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Let's face it. Anti-RD was all about making
> sure
> > that some kids don't have to attend school with
> > too many kids from a different socio-economic
> > background. Anti-RD was all about keeping our
> > schools segregated by socio-economics. Anti-RD
> > was all about pooling all of the
> under-performing
> > kids in one school and then negatively
> comparing
> > their performance with schools full of middle
> and
> > upper income kids. Sorry, you can't compare
> > apples with canary melons.
>
> Schrodinger,
> Learn a little about Pro-RD SL's relationship to
> McNair ES. Then try posting.

I totally agree that the parents help make the school, but you are again wrong to assume that the predominant culture at SL does not emphasize educational achievement. In fact, I would wager that sometimes those seeking to move up the social and educational ladder are even more ambitious than those already at the top. For example, Natalia may have to work very hard to get a scholarship to college, so much so that she can't afford to think too much about fashion, while Muffy might spend all of her time, when she's not going to the SAT tutor, figuring out whether to get the new Juicy Couture jean or the Lucky Brand jean for the first day of school. Which do you think may be more successful in the long run?

All I am asking is that you open your mind to the possibility that your child could thrive in a place like SL and that your child could fail miserably in a place like Oakton.


and even less reason for RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > While it may not be acceptable to you, my point
> > was your child's SAT won't decrease simply
> because
> > they are now in a different school.
> >
>
>
> So why run our own school system? Lets just send
> all the kids to DC, their system would love the
> investment. Or close down TJ/Langley and send all
> the kids to SL. School environment matters and
> that's why people make sacrifices to send their
> kids to schools where the dominant culture is a
> strong emphasis on educational effort and
> achievement.
>
>
> > And folks at SL I assume do have the desire for
> > educational achievement, they might just not be
> at
> > the same starting point as your family in terms
> of
> > current income and educational background.
>
> Its clear that many families at SL are ambitious
> and dedicated to their children's education and I
> believe that they were the one's championing the
> RD process which was unleashed on their
> neighbors.
>
> But overall, I would have accepted your argument
> in 1960 - but we're now many decades into
> intensive funding of high quality universal
> education and widespread access to expensive
> special programs.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even less reason (for RD),
The best way to gauge achievement in our
> area is to compare the scores of white students,
> because they tend to predominantly middle class in
> our area, thus are the best subgroup to compare.
> Those comparisons clearly show that SL and Oakton
> or SL and Madison are equal.
>

You have to look at whether students are actually taking the exams not just at the scores

SAT take rates ...

amongst white students

madison 94%
SL 83%

amongst Hispanic students

madison 63%
SL 31%

amongst black students

madison 64%
SL 54%

amongst asian students

madison 81%
SL 70%

In response to those that suggest that low income kids from SL should be bused to other schools, let me tell you a little story. Several years ago, just prior to the completion of Carson, the idea of moving Dogwood students from Hughes to Carson was floated. I covered one of the public hearings and guess what? The Carson parents wanted nothing to do with it. Guess what? It didn't happen, even though it would have been a great thing for the Dogwood kids and it certainly would have relieved Hughes of the responsibility of educating so many disadvantaged kids.

I have no doubt that if instead of RD this kind of busing approach had been taken, the court cases would make CAPS look like peanuts.

Still no socio-economics included in your analysis, but putting that aside, you totally make the SBs point for them. All along the SL parents have said that disadvantaged students who comprise a smaller portion of the total student population do much better than those pooled together in one school. Thus, it seems to me that the RD will benefit everyone. Better prospects for at risk kids and shorter Satan's commutes for the RDed kids. Thanks for helping to make their point.

even less reason for RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Even less reason (for RD),
> The best way to gauge achievement in our
> > area is to compare the scores of white
> students,
> > because they tend to predominantly middle class
> in
> > our area, thus are the best subgroup to compare.
>
> > Those comparisons clearly show that SL and
> Oakton
> > or SL and Madison are equal.
> >
>
> You have to look at whether students are actually
> taking the exams not just at the scores
>
> SAT take rates ...
>
> amongst white students
>
> madison 94%
> SL 83%
>
> amongst Hispanic students
>
> madison 63%
> SL 31%
>
> amongst black students
>
> madison 64%
> SL 54%
>
> amongst asian students
>
> madison 81%
> SL 70%

From the web cite of a "higher achieving" school: "Parental cooperation and support are integral components for student progress."

" "X" High School Center is a Fairfax County Public School program that serves adolescents who are "Y". It is specifically designed for adolescents who need a combination of individualized education and supportive counseling in order to succeed in a mid-size mainstream high school. The Center program milieu emphasizes socially acceptable behavior, academic achievement, self-respect, and respect for others. The staff assists students in identifying a plan of action to address their developmental changes both during and after their high school career. Students achieve their goals through a combination of academic accommodations, clinical services, parental involvement and community resources. Multi-disciplinary teams, in which professionals work together, provide comprehensive interventions to facilitate student growth when patterns of development have been disturbed. Individual Education Program goals determine the amount of emphasis placed on developing positive social skills and academic skills. All parents and students are encouraged to meet and participate with the staff. Parental cooperation and support are integral components for student progress. A comprehensive approach to discipline is incorporated into "X" Center’s philosophy with the intent of preparing students for successful transition into society. The school adheres to Fairfax County Public Schools’ Student Responsibilities and Rights, Regulation 2601 and to "X" High School policies."

curious Wrote:
> Yes, if something is broken, you should fix
> it..how do you propose to fix it? In particular
> you discuss families being involved and have
> alluded to the fact that families in SL must not
> be involved otherwise their stats would be
> different...so how does SLs "fix" family
> involvement?

I should have added, :-)

I am a little confused with some of the recent posts. Some posters have commented on how organized and smart and rich and white the SL supporters were during RD. If the goal is to have one's child in a school with lots of parental involvement, did not those very parents demonstrate that there is a very active, albeit small, level of parent involvement at SL? I don't think those against RD can have it both ways - either those SL parents were involved or they weren't.

I believe there is a very strong push to get parents of lower-income students more involved at Hughes and SL. Speaking from experience, those goals are not met overnight, and there will always be a core group of parents who will never be involved (e.g., not savvy enough to realize the importance or working two or three jobs). Is it not also true that parental involvement sometimes drops off at the other end of the social spectrum (e.g. both parents work full-time plus to afford the large home and the big cars)? Aren't there many parents with kids at Madison and Oakton who never set foot in the door?

I read a summer mailing from the Oakton PTSA president begging for parents to join. She quoted a statistic that only 1/3 of the parents at Oakton were members. This was two or three years ago. Could it not be that there are just more middle class parents at Oakton, which makes it seem like a higher proportion of parents are involved?
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the web cite of a "higher achieving" school:
> "Parental cooperation and support are integral
> components for student progress."
>

S. Cat Wrote:

"All I am asking is that you open your mind to the possibility that your child could thrive in a place like SL and that your child could fail miserably in a place like Oakton"

What kind of statement was that? In another post you mentioned that the RD would benefit everyone. Name one, but please keep in mind that the receiving community (SL) got what they wanted. While I advocate a redistricting for strictly efficiency purposes namely at the elementary and middle school level not at the high school level regardless of socioeconomics (I do not support social engineering) and or a new school, this RD was very different. It was done illegally.

Your choice here really isn't between Madison and Anacostia High, although you seem to want to suggest otherwise.

This debate to me seems very much about "tipping points" and whether South Lakes currently is a school where the "dominant culture" is achievement-oriented and, if so, whether it could remain so absent a redistricting.

A. If the dominant culture at South Lakes currently is achievement-oriented and would remain so absent a redistricting, then only a strong capacity or efficiency-based argument would justify a redistricting.

B. If the dominant culture at South Lakes currently is achievement-oriented and could only remain so with a redistricting, then it seems as if a redistricting would result in a net benefit, so long as the cultures of the transferring schools were not severely and negatively affected by the redistricting.

C. If the dominant culture at South Lakes is not achievement-oriented but might become so in the future with a redistricting, then parents with children in schools that currently have an achievement-oriented culture would be taking a huge risk to send their kids to South Lakes.

My impression is that the battleground is being fought over "B." If there was not already a strong achievement-oriented group of parents and students at South Lakes, they would not be fighting hard to preserve it. If those parents and students did not think additional achievement-oriented students were needed to preserve it, they would not be willing to expose themselves to the attacks that come with a redistricting.

Even with "B," however, there is a transfer of risk to parents and students in the transferring districts. Many of the parents in this area - and you have become Case Study #1 - have zero to little tolerance for risk when their children's education is at issue. Rather than acknowledge this, however, some look for ways to exaggerate the risk to make their conduct appear more reasonable. This is one reason this thread is full of posts characterizing South Lakes as a "failing school," despite evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand, South Lakes supporters whose message was limited to "your kid will do fine" (or, even worse, Stu Gibson's hyperbole that "SL is better than TJ") fail to acknowledge other parents' concerns. Responding to those parents that they were racists did not help the SL cause.

One fact that does strike me as relevant that receives little attention is the percentage of SL students in years ahead that the School Board projects will come from FM/FLoris/MI:

2008-09: 14.0
2009-10: 23.2
2010-11: 30.0
2011-12: 35.1
2012-13: 34.3

If these numbers are credible, doesn't this give you some comfort that there would continue to be a large cohort of South Lakes parents and students fully committed to their childrens' education?

Perhaps not. Again, however, you should not assume that others would support continuing to send your kids to Wolftrap/Thoreau/Madison when there are
far closer alternatives. Even though the numbers were small, and might not have justified a redistricting on their own, there was more support for redistricting that area to the South Lakes pyramid than there was for redistricting Fox Mill, Floris or Navy.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Still no socio-economics included in your
> analysis, but putting that aside, you totally make
> the SBs point for them. All along the SL parents
> have said that disadvantaged students who comprise
> a smaller portion of the total student population
> do much better than those pooled together in one
> school. Thus, it seems to me that the RD will
> benefit everyone. Better prospects for at risk
> kids and shorter Satan's commutes for the RDed
> kids. Thanks for helping to make their point.
>

As you are well aware, the big issue with commutes in FFX is the parental commutes, not the kids commutes and they'll get worse for many as BRAC plays out. I've seen no-one complain about the commutes to a successful school (except the lack of a TJ at the northern corner of the county) - that seems to be a fiction of pro-RDers who seem to know where other peoples priorities should be

I certainly don't follow your logic that the solution is to pull kids out of sucessful schools and drop them into 'the pool' at poor performing schools.

Far better to go the other way and build on success not failure.

Its not okay to pick a community and say "we've decided that your kids (not our kids - your kids) are going to fix our ESOL/drop-out/poor SOL/low SAT problem because we've given up trying to fix it with professionals"

What the hell kind of solution is that?

That's a F* You solution.

But its easy and that's what they did

Madison Is Not an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps not. Again, however, you should not
> assume that others would support continuing to
> send your kids to Wolftrap/Thoreau/Madison when
> there are
> far closer alternatives. Even though the numbers
> were small, and might not have justified a
> redistricting on their own, there was more support
> for redistricting that area to the South Lakes
> pyramid than there was for redistricting Fox Mill,
> Floris or Navy.


support from who?

I haven't spoken to a single family with kids from Madison North who was supportive of being redistricted - not one.

But I did speak to lots of Herndon parents who were supportive of Madison North being RD'd to protect their own kids - and that's why the SB ran the process teh way they did. And make no mistake they'll do the same thing again.

At some point the community affected should have some say over what happens to their kids - not just be screwed over in some back-room deal to make the rest of it look okay and still protect politically connected communities.

even less reason for RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As you are well aware, the big issue with commutes
> in FFX is the parental commutes, not the kids
> commutes and they'll get worse for many as BRAC
> plays out. I've seen no-one complain about the
> commutes to a successful school (except the lack
> of a TJ at the northern corner of the county) -
> that seems to be a fiction of pro-RDers who seem
> to know where other peoples priorities should be
>
By some criteria, Oakton would be considered more successful than Chantilly, but many Navy families pleaded - unsuccessfully - not to be redistricted to Oakton because they were concerned about the longer commute.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> I read a summer mailing from the Oakton PTSA
> president begging for parents to join. She quoted
> a statistic that only 1/3 of the parents at Oakton
> were members. This was two or three years ago.
> Could it not be that there are just more middle
> class parents at Oakton, which makes it seem like
> a higher proportion of parents are involved?

Paying dues to the PTSA is no measure of "involvement."

Do you have any idea of the percentage of parents in the Navy PTA? [That's a trick question. The answer is ZERO because they have a PTO, not a PTA. In my opinion, more schools should take this step. What do the county, state, or national PTA do for you?]

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> I read a summer mailing from the Oakton PTSA
> president begging for parents to join. She quoted
> a statistic that only 1/3 of the parents at Oakton
> were members. This was two or three years ago.
> Could it not be that there are just more middle
> class parents at Oakton, which makes it seem like
> a higher proportion of parents are involved?

Paying dues to the PTSA is no measure of "involvement." Do you have any idea of the percentage of parents in the Navy PTA?

[That's a trick question. The answer is ZERO because they have a PTO, not a PTA. In my opinion, more schools should take this step. What do the county, state, or national PTA do for you?]

Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
> Everyone is correct that Langley should have been
> included

--------
Is the Cat right? Do we all agree on at least this one single point, that Langley should have been included?

Where was support in your own Vienna community to keep you at Madison. I saw none - perhaps that was a hard pill to swallow.

support from who? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I haven't spoken to a single family with kids from
> Madison North who was supportive of being
> redistricted - not one.
>
> But I did speak to lots of Herndon parents who
> were supportive of Madison North being RD'd to
> protect their own kids - and that's why the SB ran
> the process teh way they did. And make no mistake
> they'll do the same thing again.
>
> At some point the community affected should have
> some say over what happens to their kids - not
> just be screwed over in some back-room deal to
> make the rest of it look okay and still protect
> politically connected communities.

You certainly have not been paying attention.
Go back and read the comments available on the FCPS website.
Read the comments on this thread.
Or just read YOUR comments on this thread.

This does not mean "mean things" were not said by advocates on both sides, but don't pretend the SL PTSA has set a good example in this mess.

Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
> All of you, stop bashing the SL PTSA! (snip) they never said anything bad
> about the other schools involved or their students

The problem with your argument is that you always start with the premise that SL is a 'failing' school. It's just not so, no matter how many times the lie is repeated. Even by the standards held up by anti-RD folks, namely the Challenge Index (which I personally believe is an over-hyped POC), South Lakes ranks in the top 2% of schools in the Country. Face it, South Lakes is not East LA or Bed Stuy.

even less reason for RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Still no socio-economics included in your
> > analysis, but putting that aside, you totally
> make
> > the SBs point for them. All along the SL
> parents
> > have said that disadvantaged students who
> comprise
> > a smaller portion of the total student
> population
> > do much better than those pooled together in
> one
> > school. Thus, it seems to me that the RD will
> > benefit everyone. Better prospects for at risk
> > kids and shorter Satan's commutes for the RDed
> > kids. Thanks for helping to make their point.
>
> >
>
> As you are well aware, the big issue with commutes
> in FFX is the parental commutes, not the kids
> commutes and they'll get worse for many as BRAC
> plays out. I've seen no-one complain about the
> commutes to a successful school (except the lack
> of a TJ at the northern corner of the county) -
> that seems to be a fiction of pro-RDers who seem
> to know where other peoples priorities should be
>
> I certainly don't follow your logic that the
> solution is to pull kids out of sucessful schools
> and drop them into 'the pool' at poor performing
> schools.
>
> Far better to go the other way and build on
> success not failure.
>
> Its not okay to pick a community and say "we've
> decided that your kids (not our kids - your kids)
> are going to fix our ESOL/drop-out/poor SOL/low
> SAT problem because we've given up trying to fix
> it with professionals"
>
> What the hell kind of solution is that?
>
> That's a F* You solution.
>
> But its easy and that's what they did

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where was support in your own Vienna community to
> keep you at Madison. I saw none - perhaps that
> was a hard pill to swallow.
>
> support from who? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > I haven't spoken to a single family with kids
> from
> > Madison North who was supportive of being
> > redistricted - not one.
> >
> > But I did speak to lots of Herndon parents who
> > were supportive of Madison North being RD'd to
> > protect their own kids - and that's why the SB
> ran
> > the process teh way they did. And make no
> mistake
> > they'll do the same thing again.
> >
> > At some point the community affected should
> have
> > some say over what happens to their kids - not
> > just be screwed over in some back-room deal to
> > make the rest of it look okay and still protect
> > politically connected communities.

It really isn't as if the rest of the Vienna or Madison communities have ill-will towards the MI area residents.

The reality, however, is that even prior to the RD Vienna high schoolers were attending South Lakes, Langley, Madison, McLean, Marshall and Oakton, and the boundaries here as in other areas have changed over time. If a Vienna zip code automatically meant that one went to Madison, Madison would probably be bigger than Westfield.

One of the big MI arguments was that the community had no ties to Reston and wouldn't mesh with South Lakes. Ironically, the fact that some of their Vienna neighbors previously had found creative ways to get districted to Langley and McLean worked to the disadvantage of the MI folks here.

The MI poster complains a lot about getting "screwed" in a back-room deal. At the end of the day, he/she seems most concerned that this time he/she wasn't the one cutting this one.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> even less reason for RD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> >
> > I certainly don't follow your logic that the
> > solution is to pull kids out of sucessful
> schools
> > and drop them into 'the pool' at poor
> performing
> > schools.
> >
> > Far better to go the other way and build on
> > success not failure.
> >
> > Its not okay to pick a community and say "we've
> > decided that your kids (not our kids - your
> kids)
> > are going to fix our ESOL/drop-out/poor SOL/low
> > SAT problem because we've given up trying to
> fix
> > it with professionals"
> >
> > What the hell kind of solution is that?
> >
> > That's a F* You solution.
> >
> > But its easy and that's what they did

Check out my post on what happened when the SB floated sending Dogwood to Carson, and then tell me what solutions certain elitists have come up with to fix a major problem in this County (not just at SL) - besides throwing more money at the problem?

I have yet to see a credible response - the typical comment is one that Neen throws around a lot, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Icky-poo, don't burden us with those kids, separate them in a 'Richmond' style boot camp and get back to us in 10 years when you've fixed the problem. Until then, we can give lip service that says we care, while all the while advocating buying in places like Vienna (where they are so smart that they've insulated the town from the lower elements) and continuing to volunteer for the gifted kids, ya' know the ones that can 'cut it' at TJ, 'cause after all, deary, they are the only ones that really matter. Wink. Wink."

Madison is not....

I totally agree with what you say. After all, I understand from the public hearings that a very large neighborhood that actually separates MI from Madison is already attending SL, and petitioned unsuccessfully three years ago to be moved to Madison. I have heard talk of switching MI to SL for at least 15 years. This was not a new concept to the Island. In fact, they have worked hard in the backrooms, including using the much-ballyhooed Hunter Mill Historic District debates to try and create the impression that MI has always been part of Vienna. For that matter, Reston has always been part of Vienna, since that was the closest town back in the day and Wiehle was just one rail stop away.

I know for a fact that many MI children have played sports and swum in Reston over the years. One MI neighborhood is part of the Reston Master Plan. Are some folks in MI upset? Of course they are -no one likes change. Will future families care? I very much doubt it.

Madison Is Not an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Where was support in your own Vienna community
> to
> > keep you at Madison. I saw none - perhaps that
> > was a hard pill to swallow.
> >
> > support from who? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > >
> > > I haven't spoken to a single family with kids
> > from
> > > Madison North who was supportive of being
> > > redistricted - not one.
> > >
> > > But I did speak to lots of Herndon parents
> who
> > > were supportive of Madison North being RD'd
> to
> > > protect their own kids - and that's why the
> SB
> > ran
> > > the process teh way they did. And make no
> > mistake
> > > they'll do the same thing again.
> > >
> > > At some point the community affected should
> > have
> > > some say over what happens to their kids -
> not
> > > just be screwed over in some back-room deal
> to
> > > make the rest of it look okay and still
> protect
> > > politically connected communities.
>
> It really isn't as if the rest of the Vienna or
> Madison communities have ill-will towards the MI
> area residents.
>
> The reality, however, is that even prior to the RD
> Vienna high schoolers were attending South Lakes,
> Langley, Madison, McLean, Marshall and Oakton, and
> the boundaries here as in other areas have changed
> over time. If a Vienna zip code automatically
> meant that one went to Madison, Madison would
> probably be bigger than Westfield.
>
> One of the big MI arguments was that the community
> had no ties to Reston and wouldn't mesh with South
> Lakes. Ironically, the fact that some of their
> Vienna neighbors previously had found creative
> ways to get districted to Langley and McLean
> worked to the disadvantage of the MI folks here.
>
> The MI poster complains a lot about getting
> "screwed" in a back-room deal. At the end of the
> day, he/she seems most concerned that this time
> he/she wasn't the one cutting this one.

You know, as an outside observer looking in, I have to wonder if many of the folks who were RDed, many of whom seem to be contemptuous of SL, are just angry because they were outsmarted by the SL folks. After all, the SL parents weren't supposed to be the smart, organized ones. N'est pas?

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> the typical comment is one that Neen throws around a
> lot, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Icky-poo, don't
> burden us with those kids, separate them in a
> 'Richmond' style boot camp ...

You are wrong about this one. I have read several Neen-posts that suggest Marshall (over 17% FRM) be closed and the students sent to surrounding schools (which would include Madison, Langley, and McLean).

By the way, "paraphrase" means to restate to make something simpler and shorter. It does NOT mean to insert a meaning or opinion that was not in the original or to write something completely different from was originally stated. Until you learn how to paraphase properly, you should stick to exact quotes.

The culture of SL is bipolar....a cadre of rich white mommies trying drag in more white kids so their kids are not so alone and so they can have a "traditional" white upper class experience with fancy cotillions and big homecoming festivals, and a cadre of immigrants who dont give a damn about IB or who is homecoming queen...they just want an education.

The cat is one of Vandenberg's crones resurfaced to attempt to justify the elitist racist posturing of the SLPTA. The SLPTA is convinced that brown skinned immigrants are bad for SL. The SLPTA cooked up the RD to add some white and yellow pigment to the rainbow. The true racists are those who think you need middle class whites in a school to succeed.

Interestingly, it often liberal democrats who are most racist...their attempts to help are based in a fundamental belief in the inferiority of minorities. The fact the IB is so embraced by Vandenberg and crones is further evidence of ultra-left wing leanings. The SLPTA parents are afraid of the parents and kids from Dogwood etc, and have stopped at nothing to marginalize these folks. If they were "color blind" they would not be cherry picking neighborhoods, but would support letting geography be the only factor considered when drawing boundaries.

The cat and her friends try to mask their ugly racial stereotyping by saying it is the anti-RD crowd that is racist. Vandenberg and crew should not have had private access or influence on the RD. If not illegal, it was certainly unethical.




Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I totally agree that the parents help make the
> school, but you are again wrong to assume that the
> predominant culture at SL does not emphasize
> educational achievement. In fact, I would wager
> that sometimes those seeking to move up the social
> and educational ladder are even more ambitious
> than those already at the top. For example,
> Natalia may have to work very hard to get a
> scholarship to college, so much so that she can't
> afford to think too much about fashion, while
> Muffy might spend all of her time, when she's not
> going to the SAT tutor, figuring out whether to
> get the new Juicy Couture jean or the Lucky Brand
> jean for the first day of school. Which do you
> think may be more successful in the long run?
>
> All I am asking is that you open your mind to the
> possibility that your child could thrive in a
> place like SL and that your child could fail
> miserably in a place like Oakton.
>
>
> and even less reason for RD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > curious Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > While it may not be acceptable to you, my
> point
> > > was your child's SAT won't decrease simply
> > because
> > > they are now in a different school.
> > >
> >
> >
> > So why run our own school system? Lets just
> send
> > all the kids to DC, their system would love the
> > investment. Or close down TJ/Langley and send
> all
> > the kids to SL. School environment matters and
> > that's why people make sacrifices to send their
> > kids to schools where the dominant culture is a
> > strong emphasis on educational effort and
> > achievement.
> >
> >
> > > And folks at SL I assume do have the desire
> for
> > > educational achievement, they might just not
> be
> > at
> > > the same starting point as your family in
> terms
> > of
> > > current income and educational background.
> >
> > Its clear that many families at SL are
> ambitious
> > and dedicated to their children's education and
> I
> > believe that they were the one's championing
> the
> > RD process which was unleashed on their
> > neighbors.
> >
> > But overall, I would have accepted your
> argument
> > in 1960 - but we're now many decades into
> > intensive funding of high quality universal
> > education and widespread access to expensive
> > special programs.

Hey cat dung, quit pussy footing around. Do you dismiss the anti-IB arguments of disaffected draftees? Justify your position


Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, as an outside observer looking in, I
> have to wonder if many of the folks who were RDed,
> many of whom seem to be contemptuous of SL, are
> just angry because they were outsmarted by the SL
> folks. After all, the SL parents weren't supposed
> to be the smart, organized ones. N'est pas?

There may be some truth to this....I visited a few SLPTA meetings....all white moms and dads...and the school is 50% Hispanic/black? They were all talking about graduation parties and IB successes....nothing on the agenda about mentoring struggling students. It seemed like a school within a school, or two schools under one roof. What is up with that?



Meow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The culture of SL is bipolar....a cadre of rich
> white mommies trying drag in more white kids so
> their kids are not so alone and so they can have a
> "traditional" white upper class experience with
> fancy cotillions and big homecoming festivals, and
> a cadre of immigrants who dont give a damn about
> IB or who is homecoming queen...they just want an
> education.
>
> The cat is one of Vandenberg's crones resurfaced
> to attempt to justify the elitist racist posturing
> of the SLPTA. The SLPTA is convinced that brown
> skinned immigrants are bad for SL. The SLPTA
> cooked up the RD to add some white and yellow
> pigment to the rainbow. The true racists are
> those who think you need middle class whites in a
> school to succeed.
>
> Interestingly, it often liberal democrats who are
> most racist...their attempts to help are based in
> a fundamental belief in the inferiority of
> minorities. The fact the IB is so embraced by
> Vandenberg and crones is further evidence of
> ultra-left wing leanings. The SLPTA parents are
> afraid of the parents and kids from Dogwood etc,
> and have stopped at nothing to marginalize these
> folks. If they were "color blind" they would not
> be cherry picking neighborhoods, but would support
> letting geography be the only factor considered
> when drawing boundaries.
>
> The cat and her friends try to mask their ugly
> racial stereotyping by saying it is the anti-RD
> crowd that is racist. Vandenberg and crew should
> not have had private access or influence on the
> RD. If not illegal, it was certainly unethical.
>
>
>
>

Hey pussy, not sure about your point. What facts support your allegorical tale about Carson/Dogwood. Or is it a tall tale.

If it happened, it was because the SB saw through the racist posturing of those trying to jettison unwelcome students from their closest school. Many of the rich white people in south Reston dont get it...Reston is a planned community. It was designed to integrate social groups. You knowingly bought a home in this social experiment. Others bought homes outside the boundary to avoid the social experiment. It is not surprising that some of those outside Reston resent being dragged into someone else's experiment. And it is not surprising that folks expect south reston folks to live with their choices. If south reston folks do not like the experiment, they can join the well documented exodus to private school. People have voted on Hughes and SL with their feet....many run away. The current RD will mask issues for awhile, but without fundamental change, the problem will resurface, and folks will again bail. Then what...another RD to include all of the county, just to find 2000 kids who will not leave?


Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > even less reason for RD Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > >
> > > I certainly don't follow your logic that the
> > > solution is to pull kids out of sucessful
> > schools
> > > and drop them into 'the pool' at poor
> > performing
> > > schools.
> > >
> > > Far better to go the other way and build on
> > > success not failure.
> > >
> > > Its not okay to pick a community and say
> "we've
> > > decided that your kids (not our kids - your
> > kids)
> > > are going to fix our ESOL/drop-out/poor
> SOL/low
> > > SAT problem because we've given up trying to
> > fix
> > > it with professionals"
> > >
> > > What the hell kind of solution is that?
> > >
> > > That's a F* You solution.
> > >
> > > But its easy and that's what they did
>
> Check out my post on what happened when the SB
> floated sending Dogwood to Carson, and then tell
> me what solutions certain elitists have come up
> with to fix a major problem in this County (not
> just at SL) - besides throwing more money at the
> problem?
>
> I have yet to see a credible response - the
> typical comment is one that Neen throws around a
> lot, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Icky-poo, don't
> burden us with those kids, separate them in a
> 'Richmond' style boot camp and get back to us in
> 10 years when you've fixed the problem. Until
> then, we can give lip service that says we care,
> while all the while advocating buying in places
> like Vienna (where they are so smart that they've
> insulated the town from the lower elements) and
> continuing to volunteer for the gifted kids, ya'
> know the ones that can 'cut it' at TJ, 'cause
> after all, deary, they are the only ones that
> really matter. Wink. Wink."

Schrodinger's Cat = SLVerity and other SLVerity alias

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, as an outside observer looking in, I
> have to wonder if many of the folks who were RDed,
> many of whom seem to be contemptuous of SL, are
> just angry because they were outsmarted by the SL
> folks. After all, the SL parents weren't supposed
> to be the smart, organized ones. N'est pas?

Its not about who was smart and organized

Its about who was just quietly getting on working and raising their families and who else strapped on their viking helmets and went rampaging around surrounding neighborhood demanding that other people give in to their demands and hand over their children

Madison North didn't start this fiasco - it was thrown in a political bone in a craven back-room deal

When the head of facilities stands up and says that there's no reason for a facilities-led RD, and the SB carries on - you now you have a scam.

When the overwhelming majority of attendees at the public meetings say no but the SB carries on - you know you have a scam

When the targeted neighborhoods say no but those now in the clear point and shout 'take them' - you know you have a scam

Hundreds of families have been RD'd - and why?

and why? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You know, as an outside observer looking in, I
> > have to wonder if many of the folks who were
> RDed,
> > many of whom seem to be contemptuous of SL, are
> > just angry because they were outsmarted by the
> SL
> > folks. After all, the SL parents weren't
> supposed
> > to be the smart, organized ones. N'est pas?
>
> Its not about who was smart and organized
>
> Its about who was just quietly getting on working
> and raising their families and who else strapped
> on their viking helmets and went rampaging around
> surrounding neighborhood demanding that other
> people give in to their demands and hand over
> their children
>
> Madison North didn't start this fiasco - it was
> thrown in a political bone in a craven back-room
> deal
>
> When the head of facilities stands up and says
> that there's no reason for a facilities-led RD,
> and the SB carries on - you now you have a scam.
>
>
> When the overwhelming majority of attendees at the
> public meetings say no but the SB carries on - you
> know you have a scam
>
> When the targeted neighborhoods say no but those
> now in the clear point and shout 'take them' - you
> know you have a scam
>
> Hundreds of families have been RD'd - and why?


And don't forget this infamous scam of FM resident Castro's 500 signatures largely from Reston residents.

and why? Wrote:
> Hundreds of families have been RD'd - and why?

As the cat / SLVerity told us over and over, to reduce the percentage of poor kids at South Lakes by adding more middle class whites and Asians so that their own kids, the Schrodinger kittens, have more electives to choose from.

No, they have not told us why part of the Navy community must go farther away to a new high school, even though the courses the Navy kids take have absolutely no impact on South Lakes.

And no, they have not told us how adding jewelry making and guitar as electives will help the poor kids at South Lakes pass the SOLs. But don't worry about "those" students. After all, the cat / SLVerity told us that South Lakes does not have a performance problem. Everything is wonderful there, and haven't you noticed how welcoming they are? So just send a check to the SLHS PTSA and be quiet.

Why you guys be so angery about da redisctricting bidness? I am from duh south lakes school and be a senior. Honestly we be not that bad. As you can see I be a standup educated gentlemen. Stop with the hate and useless fighting on dis thread. Why cant we just be given hugs and love, you know. How long we gonna be debating this thang man? Me I be personally tired of seeing this thread ontop everytime i get on the underground. You shud get new lives, and go play dat world of warcraft game with gravis.

THUG LIFE

ONE LOVE

South Lakes Slim

Catty Reply Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> > the typical comment is one that Neen throws
> around a
> > lot, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Icky-poo,
> don't
> > burden us with those kids, separate them in a
> > 'Richmond' style boot camp ...
>
> You are wrong about this one. I have read several
> Neen-posts that suggest Marshall (over 17% FRM) be
> closed and the students sent to surrounding
> schools (which would include Madison, Langley, and
> McLean).
>
> By the way, "paraphrase" means to restate to make
> something simpler and shorter. It does NOT mean to
> insert a meaning or opinion that was not in the
> original or to write something completely
> different from was originally stated. Until you
> learn how to paraphase properly, you should stick
> to exact quotes.

I don't think Neen ever advocated that minority students should attend a "Richmond-style boot camp." I think she did point out that Black students in other jurisdictions with far higher percentages of minority students outperformed Black students at South Lakes, and that this raised questions both as to (1) whether the Fairfax programs were ineffective and (2) whether a redistricting was intended to cover this up, rather than improve minority performance.

The first point seems to me to be a legitimate question to ask. The second point seems unlikely, since the county publishes so much information on the performance of different socio-economic groups on standardized tests. Adding more higher-performing students to South Lakes will not make it harder to find this data in the future.

You are correct that Neen has periodically suggested that Marshall should be closed. Unlike pre-RD South Lakes (or Falls Church), Marshall's enrollment is expanding, although it remains under capacity. I now appreciate that Neen is not a disinterested party here, since the Marshall neighborhoods that would be redistricted to Madison (Neen's area) if Marshall were closed have very few FRR students and would actually shore up Madison - which has some aging areas that are getting rougher. Instead, the FRR students at Marshall would be redistricted in roughly equal numbers to McLean and Falls Church. My guess is that, if this were ever proposed, Jane Strauss would suddenly become a strong supporter of IB and pull out all the stops to keep Marshall open.

In a prior post, I discussed how current Marshall students could be reallocated to Madison, McLean and Falls Church, and how this likely would require a further reassignment of Madison students living west of Hunter Mill Road to South Lakes. Having looked again at the latest capacity figures, I no longer believe this could take place, given the current, post-RD projections for South Lakes - the school simply would not have the capacity available to absorb additional Madison or Marshall students plus the new students from Fox Mill/Floris/MI. However, if the current RD were overturned, and the School Board were to "go back to the drawing board," it might be considered as a cost-efficient alternative.

In response to the MI poster's constant whining, I will also point out that MI was the only area in the county assigned to attend Wolftrap, Thoreau and Madison. No one else at Wolftrap feeds into Thoreau; all the others go to Kilmer. Both Kilmer and Thoreau split between Madison and Marshall. As a result, all other Wolftrap families have some experience with schools (either Kilmer or Marshall) that are a good bit more diverse than the schools MI residents attend, and realize that socio-economic diversity and high performance are not mutually exclusive. If you don't accept this, look at the CAPS studies on the performance of middle and high school students on SOLs - both Kilmer and Marshall are among the county's top-rated schools.

During the redistricting debate, however, no one from MI, to my knowledge, ever raised the possibility that their area be reassigned to Kilmer and/or Marshall (which would have kept the Wolftrap students together with their classmates at least through middle school). Instead, they just complained about their dashed expectations, how terrible Hughes and South Lakes were, and how they were being thrown under the bus.

Had the MI families been more pro-active in identifying alternatives, they might have had a shot. Instead, they simply defended a status quo that seemed like an aberration to begin with, and ended up sorely disappointed. They had no Plan B other than a moratorium on RD and the current lawsuit.

Boy have you folks got your kitty litter in a wad! I had no idea I would stir up such excitement.

BTW, the Viking hats were worn by those on Viking Drive in Fox Mill Estates - snicker, snicker.

I don't have school-aged children, but I do have an interest in what happens to my tax dollars, and I am miffed that they are being spent defending a baseless and self-serving lawsuit that is ultimately going to fail. I am miffed that there are those in this County who want to ignore the fact that we have lots of underprivileged kids in our midst and that they have to be educated by our PUBLIC school system in our PUBLIC schools.

During the public hearings, I never heard the SL community try to punt the poor children in Reston. How ironic to accuse them of racism. From what I can see, they have stepped up to the plate. They live with people of all income levels, unlike many posting here. I do wonder why some think it is the sole responsibility of middle class parents in Reston to educate a great many of the poor of Western Fairfax County. This county pools too much affordable housing in specific locations and it is detrimental to the folks in those communities who bear all the burden. When Fair Oaks was being developed in the vicinity of the Gov't center, the County tried to place 50 affordable housing units in a cheap condo development. The folks in the development pitched such a vocal fit that the housing wasn't added. What neighborhood was supposed to take those units? Were they then added to Reston or Herndon? I know for damn sure they weren't placed in McLean or Vienna or Oakton.

Many minority families can't attend PTSA meetings - NEWS ALERT - they are busting hump to put food on the table and pay the rent.

Face it, folks, there are flaws in the arguments of anti-RD folks, and when challenged all they do is pull out the 'shoot the messenger' attacks.

As to the SB proposing sending Dogwood kids to Carson, you can probably find some info in the County public records. I covered at least one meeting. It was not hatched up at SL, but was proposed by the SB because Hughes was overcrowded at the time and the County was looking at ways to best utilize Carson. The Carson folks did not want Dogwood, though many in the Dogwood community wanted Carson. Ultimately, the GT center at Hughes was split and more than half went to Carson. That alleviated overcrowding at Hughes.

I wouldn't accuse others of lying when you have no grasp of the facts.

Neen gives a lot of lip service to educating the poor of this County, and I am in total agreement that this County needs to do better for its minority students. If I were a minority parent I would be screaming it from the rooftop. Neen lost me when she told the Reston folks that they made their socialist bed and they now had to lie in it. She bragged that she chose Vienna, where the Town Council allows no low-income housing. So any time she advocates for the poor, it comes across as false to me. She's ruined her credibility, which is too bad, bc I agree with her that this County needs to do better. However, it shouldn't be on the backs of only certain communities.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a little confused with some of the recent
> posts. Some posters have commented on how
> organized and smart and rich and white the SL
> supporters were during RD. If the goal is to have
> one's child in a school with lots of parental
> involvement, did not those very parents
> demonstrate that there is a very active, albeit
> small, level of parent involvement at SL? I don't
> think those against RD can have it both ways -
> either those SL parents were involved or they
> weren't.
>
> I believe there is a very strong push to get
> parents of lower-income students more involved at
> Hughes and SL. Speaking from experience, those
> goals are not met overnight, and there will always
> be a core group of parents who will never be
> involved (e.g., not savvy enough to realize the
> importance or working two or three jobs). Is it
> not also true that parental involvement sometimes
> drops off at the other end of the social spectrum
> (e.g. both parents work full-time plus to afford
> the large home and the big cars)? Aren't there
> many parents with kids at Madison and Oakton who
> never set foot in the door?
>
> I read a summer mailing from the Oakton PTSA
> president begging for parents to join. She quoted
> a statistic that only 1/3 of the parents at Oakton
> were members. This was two or three years ago.
> Could it not be that there are just more middle
> class parents at Oakton, which makes it seem like
> a higher proportion of parents are involved?

Surely you don't think involved means joining the PTSA? How many Asian parents have you seen President of the PTA? Or Black parents? Since the PTA does nothing for academics, why would parents who care the most about academics waste their time in the PTA?

For the record, Reston is a suburb, just like any other suburb in Northern Virginia. Many kids from outside of Reston's master plan attend SL. A good chunk of Dogwood is not in the Reston Association or the Reston Master Plan, for example. A good chunk of SVES is not in the Reston Association. A good chunk of Forest Edge is not in the Reston Association. A sizable chunk of Hunters Woods is not in the Reston Association.

Anti-RD folks love to speak of the Restonites making their choices, but they ignore the fact that SL includes many kids from outside Reston's borders. It doesn't fit the whole 'they are stupid socialists' meme.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem with your argument is that you always
> start with the premise that SL is a 'failing'
> school. It's just not so, no matter how many
> times the lie is repeated. Even by the standards
> held up by anti-RD folks, namely the Challenge
> Index (which I personally believe is an over-hyped
> POC), South Lakes ranks in the top 2% of schools
> in the Country.

Wow. That is just pathetic. Public schools have gone to hell in the US. No wonder we're ranked 28th in math in the world.

Thanks for that reminder of how low public schools have sunk. No wonder there are so many private schools now and so many parents home schooling.

You are ill-informed. Hughes has had at least one Black PTSA president in recent years and minority representation on its board. SL PTSA has at least one black and one asian member on its upcoming board.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am a little confused with some of the recent
> > posts. Some posters have commented on how
> > organized and smart and rich and white the SL
> > supporters were during RD. If the goal is to
> have
> > one's child in a school with lots of parental
> > involvement, did not those very parents
> > demonstrate that there is a very active, albeit
> > small, level of parent involvement at SL? I
> don't
> > think those against RD can have it both ways -
> > either those SL parents were involved or they
> > weren't.
> >
> > I believe there is a very strong push to get
> > parents of lower-income students more involved
> at
> > Hughes and SL. Speaking from experience, those
> > goals are not met overnight, and there will
> always
> > be a core group of parents who will never be
> > involved (e.g., not savvy enough to realize the
> > importance or working two or three jobs). Is
> it
> > not also true that parental involvement
> sometimes
> > drops off at the other end of the social
> spectrum
> > (e.g. both parents work full-time plus to
> afford
> > the large home and the big cars)? Aren't there
> > many parents with kids at Madison and Oakton
> who
> > never set foot in the door?
> >
> > I read a summer mailing from the Oakton PTSA
> > president begging for parents to join. She
> quoted
> > a statistic that only 1/3 of the parents at
> Oakton
> > were members. This was two or three years ago.
>
> > Could it not be that there are just more middle
> > class parents at Oakton, which makes it seem
> like
> > a higher proportion of parents are involved?
>
> Surely you don't think involved means joining the
> PTSA? How many Asian parents have you seen
> President of the PTA? Or Black parents? Since
> the PTA does nothing for academics, why would
> parents who care the most about academics waste
> their time in the PTA?

So I guess that means Madison has gone to hell in a handbasket as well, since they are ranked near SL? Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The problem with your argument is that you
> always
> > start with the premise that SL is a 'failing'
> > school. It's just not so, no matter how many
> > times the lie is repeated. Even by the
> standards
> > held up by anti-RD folks, namely the Challenge
> > Index (which I personally believe is an
> over-hyped
> > POC), South Lakes ranks in the top 2% of
> schools
> > in the Country.
>
> Wow. That is just pathetic. Public schools have
> gone to hell in the US. No wonder we're ranked
> 28th in math in the world.
>
> Thanks for that reminder of how low public schools
> have sunk. No wonder there are so many private
> schools now and so many parents home schooling.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen gives a lot of lip service to educating the
> poor of this County, and I am in total agreement
> that this County needs to do better for its
> minority students. If I were a minority parent I
> would be screaming it from the rooftop. Neen lost
> me when she told the Reston folks that they made
> their socialist bed and they now had to lie in it.
> She bragged that she chose Vienna, where the Town
> Council allows no low-income housing. So any time
> she advocates for the poor, it comes across as
> false to me. She's ruined her credibility, which
> is too bad, bc I agree with her that this County
> needs to do better. However, it shouldn't be on
> the backs of only certain communities.

I feel so special when I am brought into a discussion that I was not participating in. Thank you! You all flatter me too much!

Yes, I think people should buy any home that they can afford to buy in any neighborhood that they choose. Is that simple enough for you?

If your neighbors want to pay for housing for other people, who can't afford to buy in your neighborhood, feel free to do so. I have no problem with Reston choosing to buy housing for people who can't afford to live in Reston as long as they are not asking me to participate with my money. People in Vienna choose not to buy houses for other people who can't afford to buy their own house in Vienna, and don't want to buy elsewhere where they can afford to live. If you want to subsidize people so that they can live in Reston, rather than farther out, please do so. Support anyone in anyway that you choose, but you can't expect others to value your particular charity of housing support in Reston.

I believe in markets. Let the market decide who lives where by letting people buy a house that they can afford. I won't ask you to pay for me to live in a house in Great Falls that I can't afford, and I don't expect you to ask me to pay for others to buy a house, or rent an apartment, that they can't afford.

Simple, huh?

Of course this has nothing to do with the inability of FCPS to educate any child who comes from less than a middle class family. A PUBLIC school system should be able to handle that. They should be able to educate all children, and they can, but choose not to. That CAN change, just as most of the state has, but the will of the school board and staff isn't there to change it.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So I guess that means Madison has gone to hell in
> a handbasket as well, since they are ranked near
> SL?

Sadly, yes. In this county all the schools, save TJ, are mediocre with some slightly less mediocre than others. The democrats are destroying public education and we're all fiddling while it collapses.

Oh well. In a few years everyone will have school choice or the vast majority will have abandoned public schools for private schools and home schooling. Only the poorest students will be stuck in public schools, much like DC. Within 10 years, Unless politicians are smart enough to force school choice on the public schools. Without competition, they will continue to go downhill. They have no incentive to do anything else. They have total free reign to do whatever they choose and we're all seeing results.

No Madison Is an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> During the redistricting debate, however, no one
> from MI, to my knowledge, ever raised the
> possibility that their area be reassigned to
> Kilmer and/or Marshall (which would have kept the
> Wolftrap students together with their classmates
> at least through middle school). Instead, they
> just complained about their dashed expectations,
> how terrible Hughes and South Lakes were, and how
> they were being thrown under the bus.
>
> Had the MI families been more pro-active in
> identifying alternatives, they might have had a
> shot. Instead, they simply defended a status quo
> that seemed like an aberration to begin with, and
> ended up sorely disappointed. They had no Plan B
> other than a moratorium on RD and the current
> lawsuit.


Why should the community invent yet more boondongles just because boondongles are in fashion?

Madison North was not never a problem to anyone - its too small to be a problem to anyone and just small enough to be pushed around

The community's point was well made - "we're not a problem, you've chosen us to protect better protected communities and the whole RD process is unnecessary and being conducted unfairly".

No-one has ever successfully refuted any of these points. Even the head of facilities pointed out that the process was unnecessary.


The community was targeted to go into SL and Hughes from day 1, the driving motivation was not to move it out of Thoreau and Madison. Janie made it quite clear by refusing to meet with the community or support them that they were being thrown to the wolves,

Someone from North of South Lakes had to be in the mix or the map would have looked even crazier - it couldn't be Langley so it had to be Madison North.

The irony is that the reason the area looked so big is that most of if is unbuilt because the crazed land-owner is hanging on so that he can try year after year for permission to build tower blocks in the green buffer - which he'll never get.

So what the SB got was a small pissed-off community and a big empty space - some victory for democracy that was.

obvious typo..

Madison North was not never a problem to anyone => was never

Neen asked, "How many Asian parents have you seen President of the PTA? Or Black parents?"

The proper reply to "how many?" should be a number, not the cat's Illogical and rude response, "You are ill-informed" and then says ONE Asian and ONE Black will be on the Board next year. Two, in a school with what percentage of non-Whites?

-------------

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> You are ill-informed. Hughes has had at least one
> Black PTSA president in recent years and minority
> representation on its board. SL PTSA has at least
> one black and one asian member on its upcoming
> board.
>
> Neen Wrote:
> > How many Asian parents have you seen
> > President of the PTA? Or Black parents?

and why? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why should the community invent yet more
> boondongles just because boondongles are in
> fashion?
>
> Madison North was not never a problem to anyone -
> its too small to be a problem to anyone and just
> small enough to be pushed around
>
> The community's point was well made - "we're not a
> problem, you've chosen us to protect better
> protected communities and the whole RD process is
> unnecessary and being conducted unfairly".
>
> No-one has ever successfully refuted any of these
> points. Even the head of facilities pointed out
> that the process was unnecessary.
>
>
> The community was targeted to go into SL and
> Hughes from day 1, the driving motivation was not
> to move it out of Thoreau and Madison. Janie made
> it quite clear by refusing to meet with the
> community or support them that they were being
> thrown to the wolves,
>
> Someone from North of South Lakes had to be in the
> mix or the map would have looked even crazier - it
> couldn't be Langley so it had to be Madison
> North.
>
> The irony is that the reason the area looked so
> big is that most of if is unbuilt because the
> crazed land-owner is hanging on so that he can try
> year after year for permission to build tower
> blocks in the green buffer - which he'll never
> get.
>
> So what the SB got was a small pissed-off
> community and a big empty space - some victory for
> democracy that was.

You really should channel your energies into looking for positive ways to improve the schools your children do end up attending or, if that is something you are unwilling or unable to do, lining up a replacement for Jane Strauss you can back in 2011. The non-stop self-pity gets you nowhere.

Another South Lakes supporter telling the rest of us how we should spend our time.

No Madison Is an Island Wrote:
> You really should channel your energies into
> [whatever] ...

Gee, who rocked on Schrodinger's cat's tail?

How do you know what the judge knows?

You must have seen the Chair of the School Board one night who said the same thing.....that any child in Fairfax County can get a fine education. That just is not true.

In your quest to be negative, you missed the point....the curriculum at SL is absolutely different than the curriculum at Madison, Oakton, Chantilly, and Westfield. Why is that so hard for some people to embrace and to accept as the reason that parents don't want to see their children forced to attend SL. Or even Hughes which has a middle school IB focused curriculum.






Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even less reason (for RD),
>
> You wrongly assume that your child won't have
> peers at SL. You can't take the scores of the
> lowest performing students (many who are trapped
> in the terrible welfare mentally perpetrated by a
> certain party in this country) and try to make it
> sound as if none of the parents at SL are
> involved. It just isn't so and everyone,
> including the CAPS' suit judge, knows that.
>
> Wrong way around, you still don't get it. You
> ignore the elephant in the room - socioeconomics.
> You can have limited English kids at Oakton whose
> parents are doctor immigrants or who are from
> high-achieving Asian families. They don't compare
> with the children of day-laborer parents from
> Mexico. The best way to gauge achievement in our
> area is to compare the scores of white students,
> because they tend to predominantly middle class in
> our area, thus are the best subgroup to compare.
> Those comparisons clearly show that SL and Oakton
> or SL and Madison are equal.
>
> The bottom line is that a middle-class child with
> involved parents can get a fine education at ANY
> Fairfax County school. No one is being asked to
> suffer; however, that will not prevent some of the
> pain and suffering caused to parents who lose the
> 'social status' that comes from attending an
> 'Oakton' vs a 'SL.' There is this really weird
> type A notion in our area that your neighborhood
> and your school defines who you are. If you know
> who you are, you need no school sweatshirt to tell
> the world so. That is the crux of the anti-RD
> case, in a nutshell.

For those in the Madison North area evaluating their options:


http://www.fcps.edu/SouthLakesHS/assets/slhsnewfront1.JPG

http://www.fcps.edu/HughesMS/images/HughesMS_sm08.jpg

http://www.fcps.edu/SunriseValleyES/Images/spring1i.jpg

propose to fix it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the web cite of a "higher achieving" school:
> "Parental cooperation and support are integral
> components for student progress."
>
> " "X" High School Center is a Fairfax County
> Public School program that serves adolescents who
> are "Y". It is specifically designed for
> adolescents who need a combination of
> individualized education and supportive counseling
> in order to succeed in a mid-size mainstream high
> school. The Center program milieu emphasizes
> socially acceptable behavior, academic
> achievement, self-respect, and respect for others.
> The staff assists students in identifying a plan
> of action to address their developmental changes
> both during and after their high school career.
> Students achieve their goals through a combination
> of academic accommodations, clinical services,
> parental involvement and community resources.
> Multi-disciplinary teams, in which professionals
> work together, provide comprehensive interventions
> to facilitate student growth when patterns of
> development have been disturbed. Individual
> Education Program goals determine the amount of
> emphasis placed on developing positive social
> skills and academic skills. All parents and
> students are encouraged to meet and participate
> with the staff. Parental cooperation and support
> are integral components for student progress. A
> comprehensive approach to discipline is
> incorporated into "X" Center’s philosophy with the
> intent of preparing students for successful
> transition into society. The school adheres to
> Fairfax County Public Schools’ Student
> Responsibilities and Rights, Regulation 2601 and
> to "X" High School policies."
>
> curious Wrote:
> > Yes, if something is broken, you should fix
> > it..how do you propose to fix it? In
> particular
> > you discuss families being involved and have
> > alluded to the fact that families in SL must
> not
> > be involved otherwise their stats would be
> > different...so how does SLs "fix" family
> > involvement?


LOL You are quoting from a school I formerly worked in. It was a great program for the kids who were, as you put it "y" It doesn't address what I asked about though. The ratio is essentially 5 to 1 and in many classes there were 2 adults for 6-8 students. There are 2 psychologists and 2 social workers who are there full time. It is great for "y" it is not a program for low socio-economic nor does it increase family involvement. While it is encouraged, and there meetings once a year, some families phoned in for that meeting.

even less reason for RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> But overall, I would have accepted your argument
> in 1960 - but we're now many decades into
> intensive funding of high quality universal
> education and widespread access to expensive
> special programs.

Yes, if those families were here since 1960 you would be making a valid point; most of the families I was addressing are relatively knew..1 -5 years. If the parents are exposed to those programs you mention, then it would be passed down to the next generation. That is not the case here because we are still in the first generation for most of these families you are concerned about.

S. Cat wrote:

> "The bottom line is that a middle-class child with
> involved parents can get a fine education at ANY
> Fairfax County school."

Just curious, why did you use the word "middle-class", why not say any child whether poor or rich or in the between can get a fine education at any Fairfax County school? You know what no matter what the socioeconomic background is, parents should stay involved with their children's education, being there for them, guiding them, encouraging them and find ways to succeed, no matter whether they are poor or not. This has gotten out of hand with the "class" type of children being redistricted and the socioeconomic reasons for the redistricting.

I stand by what I said. Just because it is true that a middle class child can get a good education, does not necessarily mean that a poor child can't. However, I think it will remain to be seen whether all poor students can get a good education in FCPS. So far, FCPS could be doing better for them and yes, in an ideal world, all parents would be involved. I am just cynical enough to believe that that ain't never gonna happen.

I should have added, Baffled, that I still believe those poorer children are better served when they are disbursed among students whose parents are involved. Who knows, perhaps some good parenting habits will rub off. I am not all doom and gloom about our education system like some posters appear to be. That is their choice and opinion and I have mine.

Got to go sniff some nepata.

Peasants-

The members of the Reston Aristocracy are your betters.

You exist to serve their needs.


Catty reply Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another South Lakes supporter telling the rest of
> us how we should spend our time.
>
> No Madison Is an Island Wrote:
> > You really should channel your energies into
> > ...

Here, according to "curious" who is familiar with it, is a "great program" for "adolescents who need a combination of individualized education and supportive counseling in order to succeed in a mid-size mainstream high school."

Next question: might this program be expanded to other "at risk" students? If not, why not? Key elements seem to be:
- emphasizes socially acceptable behavior, academic achievement, self-respect, and respect for others.
- staff assists students plan to address their developmental changes both during and after their high school career.
- students achieve their goals through a combination of academic accommodations, clinical services, parental involvement and community resources.
- multi-disciplinary teams, in which professionals work together, provide comprehensive interventions
- individual goals determine the amount of emphasis placed on developing positive social skills and academic skills.
- comprehensive approach to discipline

--------------

curious Wrote:
> LOL You are quoting from a school I formerly
> worked in. It was a great program for the kids
> who were, as you put it "y" It doesn't address
> what I asked about though. The ratio is
> essentially 5 to 1 and in many classes there were
> 2 adults for 6-8 students. There are 2
> psychologists and 2 social workers who are there
> full time. It is great for "y" it is not a program
> for low socio-economic nor does it increase family
> involvement. While it is encouraged, and there
> meetings once a year, some families phoned in for
> that meeting.

Quit complaining Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Peasants-
>
> The members of the Reston Aristocracy are your
> betters.
>
> You exist to serve their needs.
>
>
Don't flatter yourselves. You peasants are worthless and cannot serve any of our needs. It's only your children who are valuable.

>
> As a parent who is not directly affected by this
> RD, but have been watching it unfold, I would not
> be to proud of the way SLHS PTA conducted
> themselves.
>
> You did a lousy job selling your school to these
> parents.
> You were dishonest about the areas where your
> school was struggling.
> You refused to acknowledge parent's VALID concerns
> about sending their kids to SLHS.
>
> In a nutshell, you basically had to drag these
> parents kicking and screaming.
>
> You exempted Langley from the mix.
>
> Not a moment to be proud of, my dear.
>
> You won the battle, but you surely lost the war.
> And it came at a tremendous cost to the reputation
> of your school. A reputation that will take years
> to recover.



WOW! SL (or the SLPTSA) exempted Langley from the mix? I did not know they had the power to do that, surely you mean the School Board choose, for whatever reason, to only include the 5 high schools they did and to exclude two high schools with boundaries abutting SL. I think you have given the SL crowd way too much "power" credit.

Schrodinger, you are the classic example of an overinvolved parent. Do you have a life. You are extremely condescending and arrogant. What right do you have telling others to volunteer at the school? If you want to do that fine!!! Go right ahead. You are the very reason I ditched SL. Parents like you ran the school. No one is paying me to run SL. You need to get a life of your own or move to Oakton and quit whining. Why should Oakton have to go to SL just for you. Unfortunately, We had to leave SL because of parents like you. Only IB parents really care about redistricting. The administration (yes, good old Bruce Butler too) are the most corrupt people I have ever met. Bullies! Sorry. Call me uninvolved but I am not spending half my life at a high school to make sure I get what I want. What are you going to do? Follow your kid to college. Go CAPS!!!

Thank you for clarifying Mrs. Vandenberg



Aristocrat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quit complaining Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Peasants-
> >
> > The members of the Reston Aristocracy are your
> > betters.
> >
> > You exist to serve their needs.
> >
> >
> Don't flatter yourselves. You peasants are
> worthless and cannot serve any of our needs. It's
> only your children who are valuable.

S's Cat.....mull this one around. There are a lot resources allocated to help kids who are not achieving regardless if this underachieving is the results of language, culture, working 24/7 parents. etc.

We also know that a lot resources are allocated for the high achieving student...we see this at TJ, IB and AP curriculum schools, and at one time GT centers.

It is my kid who is in the middle that is not recieving the needed resources. These kids bump along, don't create any trouble, and might even excell in one subject.

Hughes Middle school is supposed to have a good GT program. But what if my kid is not in this program. Huges is a school that has not passed the yearly review in maybe 3 or 4 years. This was not the case for Thoreau.

Will my kid get a "good" education at Hughes? What if my kid can not make the cut for the IB diploma program at SL? My kid is great in language, but not so hot in other courses. He planned on taking several AP language courses. Now at SL, he can take the courses, but unless he takes the full IB diploma program he is out of luck as far as college credit is concern.

Parents believe that Oakton, Westfield, Chantilly, and Madison had better academic programs to offer to the kid who was not IB material. Their resistance to the RD had nothing to do with socioeconomics of the student body or how many kids were in the F & RL program.


Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I stand by what I said. Just because it is true
> that a middle class child can get a good
> education, does not necessarily mean that a poor
> child can't. However, I think it will remain to
> be seen whether all poor students can get a good
> education in FCPS. So far, FCPS could be doing
> better for them and yes, in an ideal world, all
> parents would be involved. I am just cynical
> enough to believe that that ain't never gonna
> happen.

Sorry Wow...hate to burst your bubble. SLPTA had power and they knew how to use it.

SLPTA proposed the final option at the Dec 3 town hall meeting. Students from SL had their talking points. Guess what, the school board staff did not post their option which was identical to SL until many days later. Either SL had an inside track to staff through Gibson or someone or the staff swallowed SLPTA proposal and spit it back out as Option 5.

SLPTA were pretty talkative about what neighborhoods they wanted and why. Lets take that one.....not too many students who will be competing for the advance slots at SL or our alloted college slots. Lets not take Langley, don't want to make Janie our enemy. No, lets not take that neighborhood, too many kids who will be on F & RL or have English as a Second Language. Remember, we want the percentages to go down.

Don't fool yourself....SLPTA had an inside track to what was going on with the staff and the Board's thinking. Gibson had his team and SLPTA had Gibson along with Strauss. The other board members, except for Hone and Raney, were too timid to speak up. Or was it due to...." you scratch my back and will scratch your...."



WOW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > As a parent who is not directly affected by
> this
> > RD, but have been watching it unfold, I would
> not
> > be to proud of the way SLHS PTA conducted
> > themselves.
> >
> > You did a lousy job selling your school to
> these
> > parents.
> > You were dishonest about the areas where your
> > school was struggling.
> > You refused to acknowledge parent's VALID
> concerns
> > about sending their kids to SLHS.
> >
> > In a nutshell, you basically had to drag these
> > parents kicking and screaming.
> >
> > You exempted Langley from the mix.
> >
> > Not a moment to be proud of, my dear.
> >
> > You won the battle, but you surely lost the
> war.
> > And it came at a tremendous cost to the
> reputation
> > of your school. A reputation that will take
> years
> > to recover.
>
>
>
> WOW! SL (or the SLPTSA) exempted Langley from the
> mix? I did not know they had the power to do
> that, surely you mean the School Board choose, for
> whatever reason, to only include the 5 high
> schools they did and to exclude two high schools
> with boundaries abutting SL. I think you have
> given the SL crowd way too much "power" credit.

I hesitate to jump into this cesspool, but....

I'm a FCPS school bus driver, and I do a TJ run every day. Those kids really, really are different...I also do a "normal" high shool run and the difference between those kids is like night and day. You wouldn't believe the discussions I overhear on the TJ bus!

Anyway, towards the end of last school year, I got a shock! One of my TJ students asked me (an ignorant bus driver!) how many feet there is in a mile.

I ran away from my last foster home at 14 and my education ended at 9th grade. BUT, I still remembered that there are 5280 feet in a (statute) mile.

Never mind the IB/AP controversy....when a TJ kid doesn't know a basic fact like that, it's pretty hopeless, is it not?

Now if all the posters here had got off their asses and voted in the last school board election, then we would not have Stu Gibson on the board doing all this harm to the school system.

I am amazed that, after a year, this thread hasn't produced a viable candidate for the School Board!

I can only assume that folks here would give the average voter the oogies.

So, my advice....take a bath, go to the dentist, and get a professional haircut. Then get some stylish sunglasses to hide your wild eyes and head for the nearest Metro station to campaign.

NEEN IN '11!!!

Coffin, I hate it when people are so on the target.

We can't find good candidates to run.....so we just keep voting the same ol same ol one in......Most people don't evem know who their school board member is....

Go NEEN!



coffin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am amazed that, after a year, this thread hasn't
> produced a viable candidate for the School Board!
>
> I can only assume that folks here would give the
> average voter the oogies.
>
> So, my advice....take a bath, go to the dentist,
> and get a professional haircut. Then get some
> stylish sunglasses to hide your wild eyes and head
> for the nearest Metro station to campaign.
>
> NEEN IN '11!!!

propose to fix it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here, according to "curious" who is familiar with
> it, is a "great program" for "adolescents who need
> a combination of individualized education and
> supportive counseling in order to succeed in a
> mid-size mainstream high school."
>
> Next question: might this program be expanded to
> other "at risk" students? If not, why not? Key
> elements seem to be:
> - emphasizes socially acceptable behavior,
> academic achievement, self-respect, and respect
> for others.
> - staff assists students plan to address their
> developmental changes both during and after their
> high school career.
> - students achieve their goals through a
> combination of academic accommodations, clinical
> services, parental involvement and community
> resources.
> - multi-disciplinary teams, in which professionals
> work together, provide comprehensive interventions
>
> - individual goals determine the amount of
> emphasis placed on developing positive social
> skills and academic skills.
> - comprehensive approach to discipline
>
> --------------
>
> curious Wrote:
> > LOL You are quoting from a school I formerly
> > worked in. It was a great program for the kids
> > who were, as you put it "y" It doesn't address
> > what I asked about though. The ratio is
> > essentially 5 to 1 and in many classes there
> were
> > 2 adults for 6-8 students. There are 2
> > psychologists and 2 social workers who are
> there
> > full time. It is great for "y" it is not a
> program
> > for low socio-economic nor does it increase
> family
> > involvement. While it is encouraged, and there
> > meetings once a year, some families phoned in
> for
> > that meeting.

Many "at-risk" students receive such services via the alternative schools. Lets name our "center" it is Woodson Center. It is geared for students with emotional disabilities, many of whom were involved in the court system too.

You are seemingly equating students coming from lower socio-economic families and/or families new to the country with students that have emotional disabilities or are at-risk. Perhaps many are at-risk of dropping out, and they could indeed benefit from lots of quality adult interaction to guide them through, but that is occuring (supposedly) from programs like AVID, CPP and Pathways to Bacculaureate. Again, these programs are in their first generation, and hopefully they will prove worthwhile and beneficial for the targeted students.

Mary Ellen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> S's Cat.....mull this one around. There are a lot
> resources allocated to help kids who are not
> achieving regardless if this underachieving is the
> results of language, culture, working 24/7
> parents. etc.
>
> We also know that a lot resources are allocated
> for the high achieving student...we see this at
> TJ, IB and AP curriculum schools, and at one time
> GT centers.
>
> It is my kid who is in the middle that is not
> recieving the needed resources. These kids bump
> along, don't create any trouble, and might even
> excell in one subject.
>
> Hughes Middle school is supposed to have a good GT
> program. But what if my kid is not in this
> program. Huges is a school that has not passed
> the yearly review in maybe 3 or 4 years. This was
> not the case for Thoreau.
>
> Will my kid get a "good" education at Hughes?
> What if my kid can not make the cut for the IB
> diploma program at SL? My kid is great in
> language, but not so hot in other courses. He
> planned on taking several AP language courses.
> Now at SL, he can take the courses, but unless he
> takes the full IB diploma program he is out of
> luck as far as college credit is concern.
>
> Parents believe that Oakton, Westfield, Chantilly,
> and Madison had better academic programs to offer
> to the kid who was not IB material. Their
> resistance to the RD had nothing to do with
> socioeconomics of the student body or how many
> kids were in the F & RL program.
>

Middle School is horrible for all kids:-). Perhaps Rachel Carson is the exception, but in general middle school isn't what it could be..a true prep for high school, it is instead (in my opinion) a long extended 6th grade. In rare exceptions you have teachers qualified to teach high school level courses too, but often you have teachers with an odd middle school certificate. Things are changing, but as I pointed out about the programs for at-risk students (AVID etc.) the requirements for middle school teachers are also in their "first generation" and it will take time to see how it impacts middle school instruction.

I am curious to know when did college credit via high school courses become the "point" of high school?? How many years ago did that become important?

You write AVID, CPP and Pathways to Baccalaureate "are in their first generation." They have been around for years. If they cannot be proven to help have not helped a good percentage of students (other than the rare anecdotal case), why not get rid of these "pilot programs" and try something else?

You write that Woodson has a "great program ... for students with emotional disabilities, many of whom were involved in the court system too." Whatever Woodson is doing for these very "at risk" students - might it also help low socio-economic students, those who Schrodinger's Cat and SLV and some others are focused on, saying South Lakes has too high a percentage of "them"?

----------------------
curious Wrote:
> Many "at-risk" students receive such services via
> the alternative schools. Lets name our "center"
> it is Woodson Center. It is geared for students
> with emotional disabilities, many of whom were
> involved in the court system too.
>
> You are seemingly equating students coming from
> lower socio-economic families and/or families new
> to the country with students that have emotional
> disabilities or are at-risk. Perhaps many are
> at-risk of dropping out, and they could indeed
> benefit from lots of quality adult interaction to
> guide them through, but that is occuring
> (supposedly) from programs like AVID, CPP and
> Pathways to Bacculaureate. Again, these programs
> are in their first generation, and hopefully they
> will prove worthwhile and beneficial for the
> targeted students.

propose to fix it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You write AVID, CPP and Pathways to Baccalaureate
> "are in their first generation." They have been
> around for years. If they cannot be proven to help
> have not helped a good percentage of students
> (other than the rare anecdotal case), why not get
> rid of these "pilot programs" and try something
> else?
>
> You write that Woodson has a "great program ...
> for students with emotional disabilities, many of
> whom were involved in the court system too."
> Whatever Woodson is doing for these very "at risk"
> students - might it also help low socio-economic
> students, those who Schrodinger's Cat and SLV and
> some others are focused on, saying South Lakes has
> too high a percentage of "them"?
>
> ----------------------
> curious Wrote:
> > Many "at-risk" students receive such services
> via
> > the alternative schools. Lets name our
> "center"
> > it is Woodson Center. It is geared for
> students
> > with emotional disabilities, many of whom were
> > involved in the court system too.
> >
> > You are seemingly equating students coming from
> > lower socio-economic families and/or families
> new
> > to the country with students that have
> emotional
> > disabilities or are at-risk. Perhaps many are
> > at-risk of dropping out, and they could indeed
> > benefit from lots of quality adult interaction
> to
> > guide them through, but that is occuring
> > (supposedly) from programs like AVID, CPP and
> > Pathways to Bacculaureate. Again, these
> programs
> > are in their first generation, and hopefully
> they
> > will prove worthwhile and beneficial for the
> > targeted students.

How many years have they been around? I truly don't know as I have only heard of them recently and have assumed that meant that we have had maybe 4 years of graduates who have benefitted from AVID and Pathways. I do know of students benefitting from Pathways: going to NOVA and then onto GMU whose parents didn't attend college, and in some cases didn't complete high school.

Yes, what is done at Woodson Center could benefit truly anyone, including the kids you address here...but folks are already complaining about teacher/student ratio and monies being spent, this would be much more costly to implement within a "general population of high school students" Who wouldn't benefit from such a small ratio and access to other staff on a daily basis?

I think though that you can't replicate that at South Lakes or streching further to urban high schools with much worse stats, in our current economic situation. AVID does have a solid reputation in urban high schools, and I would assume it would within Fairfax as well. It does offer mentoring, college app advice, and significant study skills help. Perhaps someone has stats on it. I don't think CPP is doing what it could do, it seems rather wasteful. Personally I would like to see AVID starting in middle school, continue into high school, and then those kids utilizing the Pathways program. That way the kids would be assisted throughout those years, and true stats could be collected.

Someone said he liked the junior high/ senior high concept (7-9 and 10-12), but does anyone think sixth graders belong in middle school, like they are at Glasgow, Poe, and Holmes?

College credit via high school courses become A point (not "THE" point) of high school when high schools dumbed down their regular classes and when college became so expensive.

-------------------------

curious Wrote:
> Middle School is horrible for all kids:-).
> Perhaps Rachel Carson is the exception, but in
> general middle school isn't what it could be..a
> true prep for high school, it is instead (in my
> opinion) a long extended 6th grade. In rare
> exceptions you have teachers qualified to teach
> high school level courses too, but often you have
> teachers with an odd middle school certificate.
> Things are changing, but as I pointed out about
> the programs for at-risk students (AVID etc.) the
> requirements for middle school teachers are also
> in their "first generation" and it will take time
> to see how it impacts middle school instruction.
>
> I am curious to know when did college credit via
> high school courses become the "point" of high
> school?? How many years ago did that become
> important?

Middle schools Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone said he liked the junior high/ senior high
> concept (7-9 and 10-12), but does anyone think
> sixth graders belong in middle school, like they
> are at Glasgow, Poe, and Holmes?
>
> College credit via high school courses become A
> point (not "THE" point) of high school when high
> schools dumbed down their regular classes and when
> college became so expensive.
>
> -------------------------
>
> curious Wrote:
> > Middle School is horrible for all kids:-).
> > Perhaps Rachel Carson is the exception, but in
> > general middle school isn't what it could be..a
> > true prep for high school, it is instead (in my
> > opinion) a long extended 6th grade. In rare
> > exceptions you have teachers qualified to teach
> > high school level courses too, but often you
> have
> > teachers with an odd middle school certificate.
>
> > Things are changing, but as I pointed out about
> > the programs for at-risk students (AVID etc.)
> the
> > requirements for middle school teachers are
> also
> > in their "first generation" and it will take
> time
> > to see how it impacts middle school
> instruction.
> >
> > I am curious to know when did college credit
> via
> > high school courses become the "point" of high
> > school?? How many years ago did that become
> > important?
For the most part the 6th graders in those 3 schools are doing fine. Arlington, Fauquier and I believe Prince William to name just a few VA districts nearby have all of their middle schools 6-8th.

Do you think the issue of having no (or in some schools just a few) honors level courses for juniors and seniors is what has dumbed down our high schools? It seems it is either "regular" which some would say currently means "remedial" or AP and IB with nothing in between. In addition the concept that "everyone" must attend college or at a minimum "challenge themselves" via AP or IB that all courses (including AP or IB) get dumbed down. I think our career acadmies are wonderful, but wish all high schools had the vocationl options (yes, track) that kids used to benefit from. In many ways I would have said I am against tracking, but in reality you have to. How can the county say they want differentiated education meeting each student's needs, and say all kids should be taking college level, college prep courses? Obviously if you say all kids should take these courses, and you do away with honors level for juniors and seniors, you will end up with "dumbed down" regular and dumbed down college level courses.

coffin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am amazed that, after a year, this thread hasn't
> produced a viable candidate for the School Board!
>
> I can only assume that folks here would give the
> average voter the oogies.
>
> So, my advice....take a bath, go to the dentist,
> and get a professional haircut. Then get some
> stylish sunglasses to hide your wild eyes and head
> for the nearest Metro station to campaign.
>
> NEEN IN '11!!!

Look at the supervisor districts.

Reality - Stu Gibson has Hunter Mill seat as long as he wants it - bulk of votes come from Reston/Vienna. Most people pay no attention to SB. Those that do in Reston/SL area like him - why wouldn't they? Vienna area is turning more Democratic and Stu hasn't really done anything that impacts Madison - MI area RD'd to South Lakes is not big and most of it was in Strauss's district anyway. Anti-Stu sentiment in FM/Floris areas won't carry the day.

Liz Bradsher would be more vulnerable if her cheerleading for new SoCo middle school delays renovations to West Springfield. Those parents are starting to get seriously angry and there are a lot more of them than the Silverbrook folks benefitting from new SoCo facilities. Also, Phil N-E isn't doing much for his schools; he would be vulnerable if anyone cared enough in Providence to run against him.

If you want to draft Neen, you are talking at-large seat. Rainey is weird and could easily be replaced but Tina Hone is eloquent. Having both Neen and Hone on the SB at the same time would be better than "The View."

FC Wonkette Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> coffin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am amazed that, after a year, this thread
> hasn't
> > produced a viable candidate for the School
> Board!
> >
> > I can only assume that folks here would give
> the
> > average voter the oogies.
> >
> > So, my advice....take a bath, go to the
> dentist,
> > and get a professional haircut. Then get some
> > stylish sunglasses to hide your wild eyes and
> head
> > for the nearest Metro station to campaign.
> >
> > NEEN IN '11!!!
>
> Look at the supervisor districts.
>
> Reality - Stu Gibson has Hunter Mill seat as long
> as he wants it - bulk of votes come from
> Reston/Vienna. Most people pay no attention to
> SB. Those that do in Reston/SL area like him -
> why wouldn't they? Vienna area is turning more
> Democratic and Stu hasn't really done anything
> that impacts Madison - MI area RD'd to South Lakes
> is not big and most of it was in Strauss's
> district anyway. Anti-Stu sentiment in FM/Floris
> areas won't carry the day.
>
> Liz Bradsher would be more vulnerable if her
> cheerleading for new SoCo middle school delays
> renovations to West Springfield. Those parents
> are starting to get seriously angry and there are
> a lot more of them than the Silverbrook folks
> benefitting from new SoCo facilities. Also, Phil
> N-E isn't doing much for his schools; he would be
> vulnerable if anyone cared enough in Providence to
> run against him.
>
> If you want to draft Neen, you are talking
> at-large seat. Rainey is weird and could easily
> be replaced but Tina Hone is eloquent. Having
> both Neen and Hone on the SB at the same time
> would be better than "The View."

yeah, it would be more like watching The Comedy Channel.

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> even less reason for RD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > But overall, I would have accepted your
> argument
> > in 1960 - but we're now many decades into
> > intensive funding of high quality universal
> > education and widespread access to expensive
> > special programs.
>
> Yes, if those families were here since 1960 you
> would be making a valid point; most of the
> families I was addressing are relatively knew..1
> -5 years. If the parents are exposed to those
> programs you mention, then it would be passed down
> to the next generation. That is not the case here
> because we are still in the first generation for
> most of these families you are concerned about.

That's an interesting observation

I'm not sure that it holds true for the performance challenge faced in our african american community which does not appear to have a high rate of recent migration.

It could well hold true in our hispanic community where the substantial proportion of recent migration appears to have been undocumented - the accepted figures seem to be 30-50% of total hispanic community nationwide (federal and pew figures). Dave Albo's suggestion was that the additional cost to VA education budgets of undocumented migration is about $1B per year - although I've seen other estimates closer to $500M per year (which would probably only equate to $50M-$100M per year in FFX).

It would be interesting to ask to what extent the ESL rates and demographic shifts at some schools are driven by undocumented migration - the effects are likely to be fairly concentrated in key areas of the county and affected by the strategies of neighboring counties. I guess the corollary is to ask to what extent RD is a valid response to the impact of undocumented migration on the school system and the socio-economic issues it raises.

Should the SB and the BoS be appealing for federal or state funds to help, especially during the current budget crunch - or have an explicit program to identify undocumented families and and ensure that specific programs or facilities are developed in partnership with the appropriate federal agencies? Didn't the BoS institute a study to identify the impact and mitigation strategies a few months back?

FC Wonkette Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you want to draft Neen, you are talking
> at-large seat. Rainey is weird and could easily
> be replaced but Tina Hone is eloquent. Having
> both Neen and Hone on the SB at the same time
> would be better than "The View."

Having Neen on the SB would result in a very speedy lawsuit based on her likely racist statements at public meetings.

Years ago when classes were so watered down that some kids...not only the bright bright, but the willing to work hard ones who were B average students, decided they needed more challenges. I was a good parent, was involved in my son's school activities, but did not suggest his taking AP classes. He did it on his own. When students became aware that these AP classes could count for college credit or to challenge some college classes, AP classes became very attractive.

There are well rounded, adjusted, willing to work, participate in sports, etc kids who go off to college with enough college credit because of AP classes, they have at least a semester of college courses under their belts. We can be a bit politically incorrect.......there is also a financial benefit. With college tuition going up yearly, every little bit helps for us who have two or three kids in college.

People got very tired of hearing Gibson talk about his daughter who was in the IB program at SL. Or Tessie Wilson talking about her kid in the IB program and what great success happened. Did Gibson's kid get the IB Diploma? Or did she just take a few Standard Level or High Level IB courses? Or does it really matter to anyone except Gibson? Unfortunately, AP classes will not be an option for those students being forced to attend SL. That is why there is such anger and resistance.











curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mary Ellen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > S's Cat.....mull this one around. There are a
> lot
> > resources allocated to help kids who are not
> > achieving regardless if this underachieving is
> the
> > results of language, culture, working 24/7
> > parents. etc.
> >
> > We also know that a lot resources are allocated
> > for the high achieving student...we see this at
> > TJ, IB and AP curriculum schools, and at one
> time
> > GT centers.
> >
> > It is my kid who is in the middle that is not
> > recieving the needed resources. These kids
> bump
> > along, don't create any trouble, and might even
> > excell in one subject.
> >
> > Hughes Middle school is supposed to have a good
> GT
> > program. But what if my kid is not in this
> > program. Huges is a school that has not passed
> > the yearly review in maybe 3 or 4 years. This
> was
> > not the case for Thoreau.
> >
> > Will my kid get a "good" education at Hughes?
> > What if my kid can not make the cut for the IB
> > diploma program at SL? My kid is great in
> > language, but not so hot in other courses. He
> > planned on taking several AP language courses.
> > Now at SL, he can take the courses, but unless
> he
> > takes the full IB diploma program he is out of
> > luck as far as college credit is concern.
> >
> > Parents believe that Oakton, Westfield,
> Chantilly,
> > and Madison had better academic programs to
> offer
> > to the kid who was not IB material. Their
> > resistance to the RD had nothing to do with
> > socioeconomics of the student body or how many
> > kids were in the F & RL program.
> >
>
> Middle School is horrible for all kids:-).
> Perhaps Rachel Carson is the exception, but in
> general middle school isn't what it could be..a
> true prep for high school, it is instead (in my
> opinion) a long extended 6th grade. In rare
> exceptions you have teachers qualified to teach
> high school level courses too, but often you have
> teachers with an odd middle school certificate.
> Things are changing, but as I pointed out about
> the programs for at-risk students (AVID etc.) the
> requirements for middle school teachers are also
> in their "first generation" and it will take time
> to see how it impacts middle school instruction.
>
> I am curious to know when did college credit via
> high school courses become the "point" of high
> school?? How many years ago did that become
> important?

> I am curious to know when did college credit via
> high school courses become the "point" of high
> school?? How many years ago did that become
> important?

When available college seats in Virginia became fewer than the pool who wished to occupy those seats. When Mark Warner was governor he spoke publicly of an initiative to get high school students through one year of college prior to HS graduation so that they would overall occupy fewer seats over the course of their tenure in college and more people would be able to attend. I believe he said that by 2013 60,000 VA students would like to attend college and the state did not have enough spots for that many.

Christina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger, you are the classic example of an
> overinvolved parent. Do you have a life. You are
> extremely condescending and arrogant. What right
> do you have telling others to volunteer at the
> school? If you want to do that fine!!! Go right
> ahead. You are the very reason I ditched SL.
> Parents like you ran the school. No one is paying
> me to run SL. You need to get a life of your own
> or move to Oakton and quit whining. Why should
> Oakton have to go to SL just for you.
> Unfortunately, We had to leave SL because of
> parents like you. Only IB parents really care
> about redistricting. The administration (yes,
> good old Bruce Butler too) are the most corrupt
> people I have ever met. Bullies! Sorry. Call me
> uninvolved but I am not spending half my life at a
> high school to make sure I get what I want. What
> are you going to do? Follow your kid to college.
> Go CAPS!!!

Incomprehensible anti-RD babble. Better hope the CAPS brief is better than this if they want any chance at all.

how about when Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > When Mark Warner was governor he spoke publicly of an initiative to get high school students through one year of college prior to HS graduation so that they would overall occupy fewer seats over the course of their tenure in college and more people would be able to attend. I believe he said that by 2013 60,000 VA students would like to attend college and the state did not have enough spots for that many.< <

Va already has more high school students qualified to do college work than seats at Va public schools. Yet 38% of Va public univeristy seats are going to out of staters, a higher percentage than almost every other state university system.

There's talk of building a new state university in Abingdon which is only 6-7 hours away from Fairfax. Of course most of the students will come from NoVa and most of the tax money to build it will come from NoVa but in order to prop-up the dying economy of the far sw of VA, our kids, our taxes and our tuition money will be sent 6 hours away. Instead of say Culpeper or Warrenton.

Yet another example of RoVa ripping off NoVa.

Schrodinger's Cat - you make some good points, but you at the same time send a number of conflicting messages.

You rightly point out the deadly effects of the welfare/entitlement culture, which creates its own culture of poverty worse than poverty itself and has caused significant behavioral dysfunction.

Yet at the same time you decry those who don't want Section 8 housing in their midst. As I have related in an earlier post about a recent Atlantic Monthly article (link finally available here: /www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/memphis-crime), Section 8 housing vouchers bring with them crime and dysfunction and lower the quality of life for other residents. You can call those residents elitist or racist but many of them are merely intuiting what the researchers from Memphis in the Atlantic have amply demonstrated. I am certain that Restonites value their diversity but at the same time it does take a certain mindset to look past the crime and dysfunction that one sees in pockets in Reston. Not everyone shares your mindset - and I am not certain that in any event it is basis for policy.

You rightly point out the problem of the underprivileged, but at the same time, fail to recognize that Fairfax has any number of programs - and double that statement for Reston - to assist people in this status. People rightly have compassion fatigue about now.

And you rightly point out that middle class kids (as you define them) can do well at almost any FCPS high school. But that isn't in and of itself a reason to redistrict. The pro RD people need to continue to be persuasive - the exodus problem won't go away without real progress, and a statement of lukewarm equivalency is not going to persuade anyone to the cause.

So in the end, what would improve the quality of SLHS? Not that it is, as you say, a failing school - but it has and will continue to have an exodus problem. In other words, it is not about perceptions of passing or failing (although NCLB can make it that way); rather, it is about being perceived as competitive.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I should have added, Baffled, that I still believe
> those poorer children are better served when they
> are disbursed among students whose parents are
> involved. Who knows, perhaps some good parenting
> habits will rub off. I am not all doom and gloom
> about our education system like some posters
> appear to be. That is their choice and opinion
> and I have mine.
>
> Got to go sniff some nepata.

How are those poor children better served by adding higher performing children to their school? They won't be in the same classes in any high school in this county. So how will those with academic skills and abilities rub off on those who don't have those abilities or come from families who don't care academics?

Why do Black students in Richmond, Norfolk, Newport News, and Roanoke, do better than Black students in FCPS? Because our schools spread out Black students and in those other districts the Blacks are more concentrated? HHHmmmmmm...........that would seem contradictory to your argument.

What you 'believe' or 'feel to be true' is really not relevant to the facts. Nor should those things be relevant to staff, but, unfortunately, those things, feelings and beliefs, continue to drive our staff, with disastrous results for our students on the bottom.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how about when Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > When Mark Warner was governor he spoke
> publicly of an initiative to get high school
> students through one year of college prior to HS
> graduation so that they would overall occupy fewer
> seats over the course of their tenure in college
> and more people would be able to attend. I
> believe he said that by 2013 60,000 VA students
> would like to attend college and the state did not
> have enough spots for that many.< <
>
> Va already has more high school students qualified
> to do college work than seats at Va public
> schools. Yet 38% of Va public univeristy seats are
> going to out of staters, a higher percentage than
> almost every other state university system.
>
> There's talk of building a new state university in
> Abingdon which is only 6-7 hours away from
> Fairfax. Of course most of the students will come
> from NoVa and most of the tax money to build it
> will come from NoVa but in order to prop-up the
> dying economy of the far sw of VA, our kids, our
> taxes and our tuition money will be sent 6 hours
> away. Instead of say Culpeper or Warrenton.
>
> Yet another example of RoVa ripping off NoVa.

Why can't students in that part of Virginia attend UVA Wise?

Are you saying that the rich parts of the state shouldn't contribute to the poor parts of the state? I thought you were a democrat. Surely you don't mind sending your money to support those less fortunate in the southern part of our state.

Christina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger, you are the classic example of an
> overinvolved parent. Do you have a life. You are
> extremely condescending and arrogant. What right
> do you have telling others to volunteer at the
> school? If you want to do that fine!!! Go right
> ahead. You are the very reason I ditched SL.
> Parents like you ran the school. No one is paying
> me to run SL. You need to get a life of your own
> or move to Oakton and quit whining. Why should
> Oakton have to go to SL just for you.
> Unfortunately, We had to leave SL because of
> parents like you. Only IB parents really care
> about redistricting. The administration (yes,
> good old Bruce Butler too) are the most corrupt
> people I have ever met. Bullies! Sorry. Call me
> uninvolved but I am not spending half my life at a
> high school to make sure I get what I want. What
> are you going to do? Follow your kid to college.
> Go CAPS!!!

The Cat is not an over involved parent but an over involved member of FCPS staff or PTA. His support is not for students, or even his own children, but for schools, just like all staff members and PTA leaders. He has imbibed the Kool Aid, as has all of the staff and PTA officers. They believe their own PR.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2008 10:44PM by Neen.

coffin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am amazed that, after a year, this thread hasn't
> produced a viable candidate for the School Board!
>
> I can only assume that folks here would give the
> average voter the oogies.
>
> So, my advice....take a bath, go to the dentist,
> and get a professional haircut. Then get some
> stylish sunglasses to hide your wild eyes and head
> for the nearest Metro station to campaign.
>
> NEEN IN '11!!!

Hahaha........thanks very much, but only an idiot would want that job!

IB English, you need a drink. I did not ask you to edit my opinion. If you don't like what I wrote, go ahead and say it. Or are you just a pompous fool? Is correct grammar a prerequisite for posting an opinion. It is a waste of my time to edit my comment for grammar. So SORRY if your writing is superior to mine. Your attack is childish. Stick to the issues. Or if it really gives you a thrill, attack my writing. Maybe I'll get to learn some grammar from you. GO CAPS!!!!!

Mary Ellen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------We We can be a bit
> politically incorrect.......there is also a
> financial benefit. With college tuition going up
> yearly, every little bit helps for us who have two
> or three kids in college.

Why is it not PC to admit that college is expensive and AP classes can help parents to spend a bit less?
>
> People got very tired of hearing Gibson talk about
> his daughter who was in the IB program at SL. Or
> Tessie Wilson talking about her kid in the IB
> program and what great success happened. Did
> Gibson's kid get the IB Diploma? Or did she just
> take a few Standard Level or High Level IB
> courses? Or does it really matter to anyone
> except Gibson? Unfortunately, AP classes will not
> be an option for those students being forced to
> attend SL. That is why there is such anger and
> resistance.

Not that it matters, but Stu Gibson's daughters did not receive the IB diploma. But Stu often talks of the great English teacher that his daughter had for IB English at SL. I would expect that the teacher would also have been a great AP English teacher. I doubt that the IB program made her a great teacher.

Yes, most parents, and students, prefer the AP program but most on the school board do not care what parents and students want. They care about what staff wants and what fits their ideology. Those things are more important than students or their parents.

why are you people still here. meeps wants you to be leaving. so get out. We have tried to be nice but you stuck up rich people just don't get it. We dont care about your little snot nose kids. Be happy your kids get an education. baffled and the forum reading nimrod and miss quantum realitivity shit... go away.

hate this thread Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why are you people still here. meeps wants you to
> be leaving. so get out. We have tried to be nice
> but you stuck up rich people just don't get it. We
> dont care about your little snot nose kids. Be
> happy your kids get an education. baffled and the
> forum reading nimrod and miss quantum realitivity
> shit... go away.


Oh come on, did meeps ever even imagine that this forum would ever be THIS active? really what other threads have attracted such attention? "help find Jeddah"? Don't think so. Pretty sure meep's is finer than frog's here with this baffling quantum of forum reader and More.

Sorry to inform you Christina that I have no kids in school. Too bad if that makes the rest of your post kitty litter.

Christina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger, you are the classic example of an
> overinvolved parent. Do you have a life. You are
> extremely condescending and arrogant. What right
> do you have telling others to volunteer at the
> school? If you want to do that fine!!! Go right
> ahead. You are the very reason I ditched SL.
> Parents like you ran the school. No one is paying
> me to run SL. You need to get a life of your own
> or move to Oakton and quit whining. Why should
> Oakton have to go to SL just for you.
> Unfortunately, We had to leave SL because of
> parents like you. Only IB parents really care
> about redistricting. The administration (yes,
> good old Bruce Butler too) are the most corrupt
> people I have ever met. Bullies! Sorry. Call me
> uninvolved but I am not spending half my life at a
> high school to make sure I get what I want. What
> are you going to do? Follow your kid to college.
> Go CAPS!!!

Mary Ellen, I agree with your concerns about the middle. I am happy to tell you that your child can receive college credit for individual IB courses. Your child doesn't have to be a diploma candidate to be eligible for credit. Your child can take individual IB exams. If I were in your position, I would request a meeting at the school and get clarification on some of your questions and concerns.

FC Wonkette Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to draft Neen, you are talking
> at-large seat. Rainey is weird and could easily
> be replaced but Tina Hone is eloquent. Having
> both Neen and Hone on the SB at the same time
> would be better than "The View."

More like "Jerry Springer"

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The Cat is not an over involved parent but an over
> involved member of FCPS staff or PTA. His support
> is not for students, or even his own children, but
> for schools, just like all staff members and PTA
> leaders. He has imbibed the Kool Aid, as has all
> of the staff and PTA officers. They believe their
> own PR.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. But it wouldn't be the first time!

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry to inform you Christina that I have no kids
> in school.


Then why so concerned to ensure that those of us who do are all RD'd into failing schools against our will?

Quantum,

I was not intentionally sending conflicting messages. I completely understand the free-market desire to choose one's home and neighbors.

Please indulge me by taking a moment to look the whole of Fairfax County as our 'home' for the sake of the following argument. Since I moved here in 1982, this County has trended in the liberal direction, and has increasingly elected liberal democrats to decision-making positions such as Board of Supervisors and School Board. The BOS, and particulary its chairman, have been pushing the issue of 'the need for affordable housing' for years. They have tended to place affordable housing in areas of least resistance (e.g., outside of "town" limits or in areas where the residents don't have a strong voice (limited economic means). They don't choose areas where the citizenry has the buying power available to fight such intrusions in the legal system (e.g., Oakton or McLean). Ironically, despite all of the socialist name-calling directed at Reston, the citizenry of Reston finally has had enough and last year did successfully prevent Gerry Connelly from converting a park and ride lot in Reston to affordable housing units.

I note that the very areas generally opposed to affordable housing and redistricting in their neighborhoods are the ones trending liberal (e.g. Vienna and Oak Hill) and voting in the liberal decision-makers. Thus, I detect a certain 'limousine liberal' mentality that says 'we want to help the poor and provide them housing, just not in our neighborhood or school.'

That is why I don't think it is fair to place unnecessary burden on certain communities (like South Lakes) while exempting others. That is why I support not pooling affordable housing in specific areas.

Then stop with the 'failing' schools meme and we'll talk.

why so concerned? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry to inform you Christina that I have no
> kids
> > in school.
>
>
> Then why so concerned to ensure that those of us
> who do are all RD'd into failing schools against
> our will?

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then stop with the 'failing' schools meme and
> we'll talk.
>
>

That's hard when Hughes failed AYP in 2005, 2006, 2007, has DOE accreditation rates in the 70s/80s and a 57% failure rate at grade 7 maths SOL - even including the 20% GT center and a 40% in school GT membership.

Am I misinterpreting the numbers - should it be 'schools who cunningly hide their success so that they don't get swamped with applicants'?

Madison North was the only part of the study RD'd at the middle school level - from a successful school, of which it has been an active part for a very long time, to one with substantial 'hidden success'. All to protect Langley.

Ahhhhh - buts it's all about facilities, not performance.


So anyway - why are you so concerned that this happens?