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Can of worms
Posted by: WHY_IB ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:47PM

I am so fed up with this RD business, I am going to lay down my theory in very raw words.

IB is put in schools which are struggling with minorities and underenrollment problem because,

*** THEY DO NOT WANT THE WHITE POPULATION TO LEAVE. ***

IB draws more money and resources from the school board which the top 15-20% kids enjoy. This also gives this population a incentive to stay in a lagging school.

We all know, the African Americans and Hispanics are not going to survive this rigorous training. They don't have the resources and they don't have the diligence.

That is the reason they will never let go of IB from South Lakes. It serves well for top bracket of population.

Rest of the kids who cares !!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:49PM

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think we'll know anything tomorrow night,
> the work session is cancelled.

That means they've made their decision. That's exactly what I thought last night during their 'public hearing'. It seemed they were sick of the whole thing, knew how they were going to vote and didn't want to hear anything more about it. I wonder when they will post the final scenario on the website? Tomorrow?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:55PM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style survey,
> > where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal number
> of
> > representatives in a committee and conduct the
> > research/survey? Is the results too obvious? Uh,
> I
> > forget, they don't want majority rules.
>
>
> If enough parents within a school raised their
> voices the sound would be heard. If a true
> majority of the school population gets behind AP
> rather than IB then it would likely happen. Not
> overnight but eventually. It would be naive to
> think that a group of vocal outsiders could make
> the change from afar. If the RD happens and
> enough parents want a change the school, then
> change would occur. However, the requested change
> would have to reflect the will of a true majority
> not a vocal minority.

The staff and school board will resist mightily. They will do everything in their power to convince you that you are wrong and IB is the best program. If that fails, they will tell you it's too expensive to change programs now. It's too expensive to train teachers to teach AP, or to hire new AP teachers, blah, blah, blah. They will also tell you that if you really want AP you can pupil place elsewhere. They will take the path of least resistance and that means sticking with what they've got. PLUS, it fits their ideology. South Lakes won't give up IB. But they might be persuaded to add a few more AP courses. Perhaps even a calculus class, eventually.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:07AM

No Cajones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> > Some might suggest that it is a vocal minority,
> > and a sympathetic predisposed SB member, that
> is
> > keeping IB at SL now.
> >
> > I don't share your optimism. It's doubtful
> that
> > we can get Stuy to even ask the question in a
> > fashion that isn't completely fixed in
> advanced.
>
> For all of your vaunted experience and evening
> meetings and what-not, you sure have been
> ineffective in making your wishes known and
> rallying folks to your side. Hmmm...I wonder why?

The fix was in.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:07AM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> moreIntrigue Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The school board meeting for 2/21 is cancelled!!
> Stu and Kathy are up to their
> > dirty tricks again? Wonder what dubious
> conspiracy these 2 are hatching against
> > ffx county kids.
>
> The forecast is for freezing rain starting about 5
> pm continuing past midnight.

Is THAT why the meeting is canceled? I think it's canceled because they've decided on the final boundary plan and don't need the meeting.

Options: ReplyQuote
high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:09AM

WHY_IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am so fed up with this RD business, I am going
> to lay down my theory in very raw words.
>
> IB is put in schools which are struggling with
> minorities and underenrollment problem because,
>
> *** THEY DO NOT WANT THE WHITE POPULATION TO
> LEAVE. ***
>
> IB draws more money and resources from the school
> board which the top 15-20% kids enjoy. This also
> gives this population a incentive to stay in a
> lagging school.
>
> We all know, the African Americans and Hispanics
> are not going to survive this rigorous training.
> They don't have the resources and they don't have
> the diligence.
>

What did you just say?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:11AM

No Cajones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> > Some might suggest that it is a vocal minority,
> > and a sympathetic predisposed SB member, that
> is
> > keeping IB at SL now.
> >
> > I don't share your optimism. It's doubtful
> that
> > we can get Stuy to even ask the question in a
> > fashion that isn't completely fixed in
> advanced.
>
> For all of your vaunted experience and evening
> meetings and what-not, you sure have been
> ineffective in making your wishes known and
> rallying folks to your side. Hmmm...I wonder why?

Because no one in the school system cares what parents want? Just a guess.

Options: ReplyQuote
Can of worms
Posted by: WHY_IB ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:20AM

This is what I said, and I stand by it. I will not sugar coat it.

I am so fed up with this RD business, I am going to lay down my theory in very raw words.

IB is put in schools which are struggling with minorities and underenrollment problem because,

*** THEY DO NOT WANT THE WHITE POPULATION TO LEAVE. ***

IB draws more money and resources from the school board which the top 15-20% kids enjoy. This also gives this population a incentive to stay in a lagging school.

We all know, the African Americans and Hispanics are not going to survive this rigorous training. They don't have the resources and they don't have the diligence.

That is the reason they will never let go of IB from South Lakes. It serves well for top bracket of population.

Rest of the kids who cares !!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:46AM

Yes, IB was put into schools to stop White Flight. The director of instruction said so at the time. That's why it was put in the schools with the highest percentages of minority students. They were trying to convince middle and upper income parents that their children would have their own 'special' program, separate from the general populations of those schools. They also hoped that it would increase the populations at these schools by selling IB in the AP schools so that students would pupil place into these schools that were losing population.

Yes, IB is WAY more expensive than AP.

I think everyone is well aware of the history of IB in FCPS. Or did you have some other point?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 21, 2008 06:14AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, IB was put into schools to stop White Flight.
> The director of instruction said so at the time.
> That's why it was put in the schools with the
> highest percentages of minority students. They
> were trying to convince middle and upper income
> parents that their children would have their own
> 'special' program, separate from the general
> populations of those schools. They also hoped
> that it would increase the populations at these
> schools by selling IB in the AP schools so that
> students would pupil place into these schools that
> were losing population.
>
> Yes, IB is WAY more expensive than AP.
>
> I think everyone is well aware of the history of
> IB in FCPS. Or did you have some other point?

Then, why was Woodson ever part of the IB plan? Many have pointed out that Woodson got rid of the program after a two year trial, if your view above is correct, why would Woodson be part of their plan to stop "white flight?"

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 21, 2008 06:47AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't think we'll know anything tomorrow
> night,
> > the work session is cancelled.
>
> That means they've made their decision. That's
> exactly what I thought last night during their
> 'public hearing'. It seemed they were sick of the
> whole thing, knew how they were going to vote and
> didn't want to hear anything more about it. I
> wonder when they will post the final scenario on
> the website? Tomorrow?


Could be. With the way they have done to us, who knows what they are doing. I am very disappointed and disgusted in how the SB (particularly some of them) has conducted during the process. At the last public hearing, their behavior towards the people who couldn't speak English very well were appalling. As for the weather forecast, they are still forecasting for freezing rain/wintry mix tonight.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Flo ()
Date: February 21, 2008 07:11AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I am totally appalled at what our school
> board
> > is doing, right now, on channel
> > > 21. This is supposed to be a PUBLIC HEARING,
> > yet they are only allowing certain > members of
> > the community to speak and, worse, they are are
> > limiting what they
> > > can address! They cannot speak about their
> > school, what they want for their
> > > children, or how they feel about
> redistricting!
> > They are being cut off,
> > > literally, by the school board and then by
> their
> > microphones! This is
> > > horrible. This school board doesn't give a
> > rat's butt about these minority
> > > people who are trying to tell them how they
> feel
> > and what they want! Brad,
> > > Janie, and the Chair, Dan Storck, have all
> told
> > these ESOL people to stop
> > > talking about South Lakes and redistricting.
> > SHAME on them! This isn't a
> > > public hearing!
> > >
> > > Just when we think our school board can't be
> any
> > more arrogant, they sink to a
> > > lower level. SHAME ON THEM!
> >
> > Is it time to eliminate the elected school
> board?
> >
> >
> > Isn't there a petition process to go back to
> > appointed school boards?
> >
> > Time to start circulating that petition?
>
> I would sign such a petition immediately. I voted
> AGAINST an elected school board. These people are
> NOT public servants, they couldn't care less what
> the public wants in their schools. They don't
> seem to have a clue who is paying the bills, or,
> more likely, they just don't care.
>
> I am so embarrassed that our school board treated
> people as they treated them last night. I wish I
> could tell every one of those people who were
> struggling to speak English that I am very sorry
> that they were treated so poorly by our school
> board. It was so sad to see anyone treated that
> way, but especially for people who are not native
> speakers, for whom public speaking is not
> something they are comfortable doing. SHAME on
> our school board for being such bullies.



Neen, you can come to Floris and stand by these people. They would love to know at this moment that this county is not full of morons and disrespectful elected officials.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Can of worms
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 21, 2008 07:33AM

WHY_IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> We all know, the African Americans and Hispanics
> are not going to survive this rigorous training.
> They don't have the resources and they don't have
> the diligence.
>
So African Americans and Hispanics as a group don't have the resources and DILIGENCE to survive? Are you sure that you want to say this. You've just contradicted every anti-RD person who says it's not about the demographics. You've also contradicted every argument that says that all SL needs to do is improve from within.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2008 07:37AM by SLVerity.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 21, 2008 08:12AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, IB was put into schools to stop White Flight.
> The director of instruction said so at the time.
> That's why it was put in the schools with the
> highest percentages of minority students. They
> were trying to convince middle and upper income
> parents that their children would have their own
> 'special' program, separate from the general
> populations of those schools. They also hoped
> that it would increase the populations at these
> schools by selling IB in the AP schools so that
> students would pupil place into these schools that
> were losing population.
>
> Yes, IB is WAY more expensive than AP.
>
> I think everyone is well aware of the history of
> IB in FCPS. Or did you have some other point?


Neen,

I do not know about others, but at least I did not think about it this way. Interesting ..

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 21, 2008 08:27AM

Manoj Bol, Neen conveniently overlooks the fact that IB is at Robinson and was at Woodson for two years, both schools that don't fit her view of history. It's ok, though, as for her "the end justifies the means."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Can of worms
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: February 21, 2008 08:31AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WHY_IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > We all know, the African Americans and
> Hispanics
> > are not going to survive this rigorous
> training.
> > They don't have the resources and they don't
> have
> > the diligence.
> >
> So African Americans and Hispanics as a group
> don't have the resources and DILIGENCE to survive?
> Are you sure that you want to say this. You've
> just contradicted every anti-RD person who says
> it's not about the demographics. You've also
> contradicted every argument that says that all SL
> needs to do is improve from within.

What WHY_IB Wrote, Does not reflect the views of the overwhelming majority of those of us who oppose the RD. This is clearly posted from someone who is a simple minded racist.

I know that you probably realize this to be true.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SapphicHokieMom ()
Date: February 21, 2008 08:44AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, IB was put into schools to stop White Flight.
> The director of instruction said so at the time.
> That's why it was put in the schools with the
> highest percentages of minority students. They
> were trying to convince middle and upper income
> parents that their children would have their own
> 'special' program, separate from the general
> populations of those schools. They also hoped
> that it would increase the populations at these
> schools by selling IB in the AP schools so that
> students would pupil place into these schools that
> were losing population.

Gee...I never realized that Robinson was having a problem with white flight. While the student population at Robinson appears to be generally representative of the county, white students are clearly in the majority and I believe that parents largely welcomed IB as an advanced program. Neither of my children are pursuing the diploma, but both will graduate with certificates in English, history and Spanish. We would like to see more AP availability, but I don't see a lot of people fleeing to Lake Braddock, Woodson or West Springfield for AP (although we know that this happens).

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Re: Can of worms
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 21, 2008 08:54AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> What WHY_IB Wrote, Does not reflect the views of
> the overwhelming majority of those of us who
> oppose the RD. This is clearly posted from someone
> who is a simple minded racist.
>
> I know that you probably realize this to be true.

I pray that is true, Floris Parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:21AM

SLVerity Wrote:
> Manoj Bol, Neen conveniently overlooks the fact
> that IB is at Robinson and was at Woodson for two
> years, both schools that don't fit her view of
> history. It's ok, though, as for her "the end
> justifies the means."

------
Once again:
The first FCPS schools to get IB were given a MAGNET to attract and maintain high-testing students. (I am trying to avoid names like "good," "White," "rich," or "advantaged". For whatever reasons, some children get higher scores on the SOLs and SATs. Can we leave it at that?)
FY 94 - Stuart and Mt Vernon
FY 98 - Marshall
FY 99 - Edison. By that time, some parents were noticing only low-testing schools were getting IB. In addition, there was a movement among those who love IB to instill it throughout the County. Robinson, which has more "high testing" and every other kind of student because it is so huge, got IB in FY 99.
FY 2000 - South Lakes and Woodson got IB. FY 2000 started 1 July 1999. That summer the AP classes at Woodson were suddenly deleted whenever there was a similar IB course. The Woodson community rebelled because they had been assured by the OLD principal that they could have both AP and IB. FCPS staff allowed the Woodson community under the NEW principal to form a committee to choose between AP and IB. Woodson was promised it could have both programs for two years. The implication was rather like what we keep hearing from South Lakes now, that once they heard how wonderful IB is everyone would want it. Of course, that is not how it turned out. By the time of course selections in late January 2000, Woodson juniors, the first class of IB Diploma Candidates, knew their programme had been voted out.

The FY 2001 budget already included Annandale and Lee's applications to become IB schools, a two-year process. NO OTHER FCPS school since has asked for IB.

It would be more accurate to say Woodson had IB for ONE SEMESTER, then voted it out. The students in place were grandfathered.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:27AM

The point is that Woodson is not a school with many disadvantaged children, so the idea that it was purposefully placed in only low-scoring schools, which is what Neen said, is false.

Can we agree on that?

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Re: Can of worms
Posted by: Nope ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:29AM

Nope. The fact is Woodson got IB under the assumption that IB and AP are both available. They promptly exit out IB when they have to choose one.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:31AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > Manoj Bol, Neen conveniently overlooks the fact
> > that IB is at Robinson and was at Woodson for
> two
> > years, both schools that don't fit her view of
> > history. It's ok, though, as for her "the end
> > justifies the means."
>
> ------
> Once again:
> The first FCPS schools to get IB were given a
> MAGNET to attract and maintain high-testing
> students. (I am trying to avoid names like "good,"
> "White," "rich," or "advantaged". For whatever
> reasons, some children get higher scores on the
> SOLs and SATs. Can we leave it at that?)
> FY 94 - Stuart and Mt Vernon
> FY 98 - Marshall
> FY 99 - Edison. By that time, some parents were
> noticing only low-testing schools were getting IB.
> In addition, there was a movement among those who
> love IB to instill it throughout the County.
> Robinson, which has more "high testing" and every
> other kind of student because it is so huge, got
> IB in FY 99.
> FY 2000 - South Lakes and Woodson got IB. FY 2000
> started 1 July 1999. That summer the AP classes at
> Woodson were suddenly deleted whenever there was a
> similar IB course. The Woodson community rebelled
> because they had been assured by the OLD principal
> that they could have both AP and IB. FCPS staff
> allowed the Woodson community under the NEW
> principal to form a committee to choose between AP
> and IB. Woodson was promised it could have both
> programs for two years. The implication was rather
> like what we keep hearing from South Lakes now,
> that once they heard how wonderful IB is everyone
> would want it. Of course, that is not how it
> turned out. By the time of course selections in
> late January 2000, Woodson juniors, the first
> class of IB Diploma Candidates, knew their
> programme had been voted out.
>
> The FY 2001 budget already included Annandale and
> Lee's applications to become IB schools, a
> two-year process. NO OTHER FCPS school since has
> asked for IB.
>
> It would be more accurate to say Woodson had IB
> for ONE SEMESTER, then voted it out. The students
> in place were grandfathered.

Thanks for the clarification. That is very informative. Seems like community input is the key for a successful IB implementation.

Now please someone clarify 2 things for me,

1) Was there a consensus in South Lakes as a community for IB implementation?

2) Is there a consensus in all the communities that are being redistricted that they want to have an IB program (MI, Fox Mill, Floris)

There is a perception in this convoluted process that these communities are using the IB/AP card to avoid the redistricting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Can of worms
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:32AM

Nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nope. The fact is Woodson got IB under the
> assumption that IB and AP are both available. They
> promptly exit out IB when they have to choose one.

That is another excellent point.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:36AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point is that Woodson is not a school with
> many disadvantaged children, so the idea that it
> was purposefully placed in only low-scoring
> schools, which is what Neen said, is false.
>
> Can we agree on that?


I remember reading somewhere about 50 pages ago that IB is in 7 of the 10 lowest performing (and/or highest FRM) FCPS schools, something like that. So maybe Woodson was an exception, but I'm sure that somebody with more research motivation can provide some facts about the correlation between IB and "disadvantagedness." To me that doesn't indicate that IB is bad, but it may show that IB may have gone into schools that were at risk, with Woodson being an exception, perhaps choosen to deflect that observation. Forum Reader mentions that some county residents had noticed that IB was going to low-testing schools.

So if what Neen said is false, it might be her use of the word "only" rather than
'predominantly."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: zoom ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:36AM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me, the most compelling fact-based testimony
> last night was the guy from Chantilly at the end
> of the testimony who overlaid Dulles airport on
> one of the proposals. While I could not see it
> clearly on TV, his map really shocked me...it
> seemed to indicate that parts of Westfields are
> really isolated from the rest of the Westfields
> attendance area. I think this is similar to the
> argument made by the Madison folks re: the
> greenbelt and industrial area that separates them
> from SL.
>
> I think the Chantilly dad was saying that the
> Floris people assigned to Westfields are an island
> when you put Dulles on the map, but I am not
> sure...maybe he was making another point....it was
> hard to see and hard to hear. If that guy is on
> this forum, can he explain his point?
>
>
Or maybe he was illustrating how isolated McNair will be from Westfield. The only ties McNair will have to Westfield is their Title 1 protection and a small dribble of homes down Centreville Road.

But really, let's look at the map and see where the county put Westfield. It is completely surrounded by commercial and industrial. EVERYONE who goes to that school is "isolated" from the school. What's between Virginia Run and Westfield? Storage, beltway Bandit, large grassy field, beltway bandit, grassy field, long, hilly narrow road, grassy field, dangerous intersection, big farm with pumpkin patch, woods, more woods, grassy field. At least for Floris and McNair it is a straight 10 minute shot down 28.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: BOJ ()
Date: February 21, 2008 09:39AM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLVerity Wrote:
> > > Manoj Bol, Neen conveniently overlooks the
> fact
> > > that IB is at Robinson and was at Woodson for
> > two
> > > years, both schools that don't fit her view
> of
> > > history. It's ok, though, as for her "the
> end
> > > justifies the means."
> >
> > ------
> > Once again:
> > The first FCPS schools to get IB were given a
> > MAGNET to attract and maintain high-testing
> > students. (I am trying to avoid names like
> "good,"
> > "White," "rich," or "advantaged". For whatever
> > reasons, some children get higher scores on the
> > SOLs and SATs. Can we leave it at that?)
> > FY 94 - Stuart and Mt Vernon
> > FY 98 - Marshall
> > FY 99 - Edison. By that time, some parents were
> > noticing only low-testing schools were getting
> IB.
> > In addition, there was a movement among those
> who
> > love IB to instill it throughout the County.
> > Robinson, which has more "high testing" and
> every
> > other kind of student because it is so huge,
> got
> > IB in FY 99.
> > FY 2000 - South Lakes and Woodson got IB. FY
> 2000
> > started 1 July 1999. That summer the AP classes
> at
> > Woodson were suddenly deleted whenever there was
> a
> > similar IB course. The Woodson community
> rebelled
> > because they had been assured by the OLD
> principal
> > that they could have both AP and IB. FCPS staff
> > allowed the Woodson community under the NEW
> > principal to form a committee to choose between
> AP
> > and IB. Woodson was promised it could have both
> > programs for two years. The implication was
> rather
> > like what we keep hearing from South Lakes now,
> > that once they heard how wonderful IB is
> everyone
> > would want it. Of course, that is not how it
> > turned out. By the time of course selections in
> > late January 2000, Woodson juniors, the first
> > class of IB Diploma Candidates, knew their
> > programme had been voted out.
> >
> > The FY 2001 budget already included Annandale
> and
> > Lee's applications to become IB schools, a
> > two-year process. NO OTHER FCPS school since
> has
> > asked for IB.
> >
> > It would be more accurate to say Woodson had IB
> > for ONE SEMESTER, then voted it out. The
> students
> > in place were grandfathered.
>
> Thanks for the clarification. That is very
> informative. Seems like community input is the
> key for a successful IB implementation.
>
> Now please someone clarify 2 things for me,
>
> 1) Was there a consensus in South Lakes as a
> community for IB implementation?
>
> 2) Is there a consensus in all the communities
> that are being redistricted that they want to have
> an IB program (MI, Fox Mill, Floris)
>
> There is a perception in this convoluted process
> that these communities are using the IB/AP card to
> avoid the redistricting.


There are many cards that are being appropriately used. Many of them are not even out of the hat, yet.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 10:08AM

SLVerity Wrote:
> ... the idea that it
> was purposefully placed in only low-scoring
> schools, which is what Neen said, is false.
>
> Can we agree on that?

---
NO.

Neen wrote, "... IB was put into schools to stop White Flight. The director of instruction said so at the time. That's why it was put in the schools with the highest percentages of minority students. They were trying to convince middle and upper income parents that their children would have their own 'special' program, separate from the general populations of those schools. They also hoped that it would increase the populations at these schools by selling IB in the AP schools so that students would pupil place into these schools that were losing population. Yes, IB is WAY more expensive than AP."

Read again what I posted. What Neen posted was correct - that is how IB was initially established in FCPS. The train was rolling merrily along, Stuart and Mt Vernon, then Marshall, then Edison. Two things happened: 1) People began noticing only low-testing schools were getting IB AND 2) FCPS staff members who love IB wanted to place it in every FCPS high school. The plan appeared to be to add two additional high schools per year; huge Robinson got IB the same time as Edison. Next to be added to the train were South Lakes and Woodson, then Annandale and Lee.

Woodson derailed the entire process and IB never got to the last two "low testing" schools of the time, Falls Church and West Potomac - or to any other FCPS high school.

Neen is also correct that IB is inarguably and considerably more expensive than AP.

None of this is meant in any way to imply IB CAUSES schools to BECOME "low testing." Quite the opposite - the FCPS IB schools already had low test scores when they were given IB, except at huge Robinson. The only FCPS IB school with "high testing" students, Woodson, got rid of IB as soon as that community saw what was happening.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: leave_us_alone ()
Date: February 21, 2008 10:23AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > ... the idea that it
> > was purposefully placed in only low-scoring
> > schools, which is what Neen said, is false.
> >
> > Can we agree on that?
>
> ---
> NO.
>
> Neen wrote, "... IB was put into schools to stop
> White Flight. The director of instruction said so
> at the time. That's why it was put in the schools
> with the highest percentages of minority students.
> They were trying to convince middle and upper
> income parents that their children would have
> their own 'special' program, separate from the
> general populations of those schools. They also
> hoped that it would increase the populations at
> these schools by selling IB in the AP schools so
> that students would pupil place into these schools
> that were losing population. Yes, IB is WAY more
> expensive than AP."
>
> Read again what I posted. What Neen posted was
> correct - that is how IB was initially established
> in FCPS. The train was rolling merrily along,
> Stuart and Mt Vernon, then Marshall, then Edison.
> Two things happened: 1) People began noticing only
> low-testing schools were getting IB AND 2) FCPS
> staff members who love IB wanted to place it in
> every FCPS high school. The plan appeared to be to
> add two additional high schools per year; huge
> Robinson got IB the same time as Edison. Next to
> be added to the train were South Lakes and
> Woodson, then Annandale and Lee.
>
> Woodson derailed the entire process and IB never
> got to the last two "low testing" schools of the
> time, Falls Church and West Potomac - or to any
> other FCPS high school.
>
> Neen is also correct that IB is inarguably and
> considerably more expensive than AP.
>
> None of this is meant in any way to imply IB
> CAUSES schools to BECOME "low testing." Quite the
> opposite - the FCPS IB schools already had low
> test scores when they were given IB, except at
> huge Robinson. The only FCPS IB school with "high
> testing" students, Woodson, got rid of IB as soon
> as that community saw what was happening.


After reading all this, the talk of let new students come then we will decide AP or IB is just a hogwash if you ask me. I do not think SL has any intention of getting rid of IB program.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 21, 2008 10:30AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > ... the idea that it
> > was purposefully placed in only low-scoring
> > schools, which is what Neen said, is false.
> >
> > Can we agree on that?
>
> ---
> NO.
>
> Neen wrote, "... IB was put into schools to stop
> White Flight. The director of instruction said so
> at the time. That's why it was put in the schools
> with the highest percentages of minority students.
> They were trying to convince middle and upper
> income parents that their children would have
> their own 'special' program, separate from the
> general populations of those schools. They also
> hoped that it would increase the populations at
> these schools by selling IB in the AP schools so
> that students would pupil place into these schools
> that were losing population. Yes, IB is WAY more
> expensive than AP."
>
> Read again what I posted. What Neen posted was
> correct - that is how IB was initially established
> in FCPS. The train was rolling merrily along,
> Stuart and Mt Vernon, then Marshall, then Edison.
> Two things happened: 1) People began noticing only
> low-testing schools were getting IB AND 2) FCPS
> staff members who love IB wanted to place it in
> every FCPS high school. The plan appeared to be to
> add two additional high schools per year; huge
> Robinson got IB the same time as Edison. Next to
> be added to the train were South Lakes and
> Woodson, then Annandale and Lee.
>
> Woodson derailed the entire process and IB never
> got to the last two "low testing" schools of the
> time, Falls Church and West Potomac - or to any
> other FCPS high school.
>
> Neen is also correct that IB is inarguably and
> considerably more expensive than AP.
>
> None of this is meant in any way to imply IB
> CAUSES schools to BECOME "low testing." Quite the
> opposite - the FCPS IB schools already had low
> test scores when they were given IB, except at
> huge Robinson. The only FCPS IB school with "high
> testing" students, Woodson, got rid of IB as soon
> as that community saw what was happening.


I am curious...did Robinson have the AP program before going IB?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer-ACLU suit pro-IB ()
Date: February 21, 2008 10:41AM

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLVerity Wrote:
> > > ... the idea that it
> > > was purposefully placed in only low-scoring
> > > schools, which is what Neen said, is false.
> > >
> > > Can we agree on that?
> >
> > ---
> > NO.
> >
> > Neen wrote, "... IB was put into schools to
> stop
> > White Flight. The director of instruction said
> so
> > at the time. That's why it was put in the
> schools
> > with the highest percentages of minority
> students.
> > They were trying to convince middle and upper
> > income parents that their children would have
> > their own 'special' program, separate from the
> > general populations of those schools. They also
> > hoped that it would increase the populations at
> > these schools by selling IB in the AP schools
> so
> > that students would pupil place into these
> schools
> > that were losing population. Yes, IB is WAY
> more
> > expensive than AP."
> >
> > Read again what I posted. What Neen posted was
> > correct - that is how IB was initially
> established
> > in FCPS. The train was rolling merrily along,
> > Stuart and Mt Vernon, then Marshall, then
> Edison.
> > Two things happened: 1) People began noticing
> only
> > low-testing schools were getting IB AND 2) FCPS
> > staff members who love IB wanted to place it in
> > every FCPS high school. The plan appeared to be
> to
> > add two additional high schools per year; huge
> > Robinson got IB the same time as Edison. Next
> to
> > be added to the train were South Lakes and
> > Woodson, then Annandale and Lee.
> >
> > Woodson derailed the entire process and IB
> never
> > got to the last two "low testing" schools of
> the
> > time, Falls Church and West Potomac - or to any
> > other FCPS high school.
> >
> > Neen is also correct that IB is inarguably and
> > considerably more expensive than AP.
> >
> > None of this is meant in any way to imply IB
> > CAUSES schools to BECOME "low testing." Quite
> the
> > opposite - the FCPS IB schools already had low
> > test scores when they were given IB, except at
> > huge Robinson. The only FCPS IB school with
> "high
> > testing" students, Woodson, got rid of IB as
> soon
> > as that community saw what was happening.
>
>
> After reading all this, the talk of let new
> students come then we will decide AP or IB is just
> a hogwash if you ask me. I do not think SL has
> any intention of getting rid of IB program.

It is all hogwash. When a school district decides to get rid of IB all he11 can break out. Nobody but Woodson cared about getting rid of AP. The thing is in FCPS IB is offered at a lot of schools.

http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/ComplaintIB.pdf

People tried to get rid of it in a small district outside Pittsburgh [Upper St Clair]and IB supporters ran to the ACLU since some bought homes for IB and some local VIP's had talked about IB being non-Judeo-Christian etc.

All that when the district might have had less than 15 diploma candidates per grade [only 11, 12]. Wonder who pays the test fees there? Well it is interesting to read the ACLU complaint since it seems IBO gives a school leeway so what is SL's scheduling problem? If a significant number of new South Lakians are from an area [ie Floris' Asian commun ity] that had AP access with their assigned neighborhood school via FCPS free transportation, then they too could go to the ACLU.

They could also emphasis COSTS to taxpayers and potential loss of college credits.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 10:44AM

Baffled Wrote:
>
>... I am curious...did Robinson have the AP program
> before going IB?

Now that Ann Monday is the Supt at Fairfax is she putting in IB? If not, why not -wasn't she at Robinson for the implementation?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 21, 2008 10:49AM

taxpayer-ACLU suit pro-IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> leave_us_alone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > SLVerity Wrote:
> > > > ... the idea that it
> > > > was purposefully placed in only low-scoring
> > > > schools, which is what Neen said, is false.
>
> > > >
> > > > Can we agree on that?
> > >
> > > ---
> > > NO.
> > >
> > > Neen wrote, "... IB was put into schools to
> > stop
> > > White Flight. The director of instruction
> said
> > so
> > > at the time. That's why it was put in the
> > schools
> > > with the highest percentages of minority
> > students.
> > > They were trying to convince middle and upper
> > > income parents that their children would have
> > > their own 'special' program, separate from
> the
> > > general populations of those schools. They
> also
> > > hoped that it would increase the populations
> at
> > > these schools by selling IB in the AP schools
> > so
> > > that students would pupil place into these
> > schools
> > > that were losing population. Yes, IB is WAY
> > more
> > > expensive than AP."
> > >
> > > Read again what I posted. What Neen posted
> was
> > > correct - that is how IB was initially
> > established
> > > in FCPS. The train was rolling merrily along,
> > > Stuart and Mt Vernon, then Marshall, then
> > Edison.
> > > Two things happened: 1) People began noticing
> > only
> > > low-testing schools were getting IB AND 2)
> FCPS
> > > staff members who love IB wanted to place it
> in
> > > every FCPS high school. The plan appeared to
> be
> > to
> > > add two additional high schools per year;
> huge
> > > Robinson got IB the same time as Edison. Next
> > to
> > > be added to the train were South Lakes and
> > > Woodson, then Annandale and Lee.
> > >
> > > Woodson derailed the entire process and IB
> > never
> > > got to the last two "low testing" schools of
> > the
> > > time, Falls Church and West Potomac - or to
> any
> > > other FCPS high school.
> > >
> > > Neen is also correct that IB is inarguably
> and
> > > considerably more expensive than AP.
> > >
> > > None of this is meant in any way to imply IB
> > > CAUSES schools to BECOME "low testing." Quite
> > the
> > > opposite - the FCPS IB schools already had
> low
> > > test scores when they were given IB, except
> at
> > > huge Robinson. The only FCPS IB school with
> > "high
> > > testing" students, Woodson, got rid of IB as
> > soon
> > > as that community saw what was happening.
> >
> >
> > After reading all this, the talk of let new
> > students come then we will decide AP or IB is
> just
> > a hogwash if you ask me. I do not think SL has
> > any intention of getting rid of IB program.
>
> It is all hogwash. When a school district decides
> to get rid of IB all he11 can break out. Nobody
> but Woodson cared about getting rid of AP. The
> thing is in FCPS IB is offered at a lot of
> schools.
>
> http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/ComplaintIB.pdf
>
> People tried to get rid of it in a small district
> outside Pittsburgh and IB supporters ran to the
> ACLU since some bought homes for IB and some local
> VIP's had talked about IB being
> non-Judeo-Christian etc.
>
> All that when the district might have had less
> than 15 diploma candidates per grade . Wonder who
> pays the test fees there? Well it is interesting
> to read the ACLU complaint since it seems IBO
> gives a school leeway so what is SL's scheduling
> problem? If a significant number of new South
> Lakians are from an area that had AP access with
> their assigned neighborhood school via FCPS free
> transportation, then they too could go to the
> ACLU.
>
> They could also emphasis COSTS to taxpayers and
> potential loss of college credits.

The issue in that district was that the school board made a decision without proper procedures being followed, and against the majority wishes. If you follow reports on it (google USC and ACLU or IB) you will see what the school board did. The ACLU was brought in due to how the school board handled things, not because of IB itself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 21, 2008 10:59AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style
> survey,
> > > where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal
> number
> > of
> > > representatives in a committee and conduct
> the
> > > research/survey? Is the results too obvious?
> Uh,
> > I
> > > forget, they don't want majority rules.
> >
> >
> > If enough parents within a school raised their
> > voices the sound would be heard. If a true
> > majority of the school population gets behind
> AP
> > rather than IB then it would likely happen.
> Not
> > overnight but eventually. It would be naive to
> > think that a group of vocal outsiders could
> make
> > the change from afar. If the RD happens and
> > enough parents want a change the school, then
> > change would occur. However, the requested
> change
> > would have to reflect the will of a true
> majority
> > not a vocal minority.
>
> The staff and school board will resist mightily.
> They will do everything in their power to convince
> you that you are wrong and IB is the best program.
> If that fails, they will tell you it's too
> expensive to change programs now. It's too
> expensive to train teachers to teach AP, or to
> hire new AP teachers, blah, blah, blah. They will
> also tell you that if you really want AP you can
> pupil place elsewhere. They will take the path of
> least resistance and that means sticking with what
> they've got. PLUS, it fits their ideology. South
> Lakes won't give up IB. But they might be
> persuaded to add a few more AP courses. Perhaps
> even a calculus class, eventually.



SLHS will do what it is compelled to do. They like any other school administration would listen to a solid majority. Not ffx underground post, not a vocal minority. when the majority presents itself, they will listen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: leave_us_alone ()
Date: February 21, 2008 11:10AM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Floris Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style
> > survey,
> > > > where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal
> > number
> > > of
> > > > representatives in a committee and conduct
> > the
> > > > research/survey? Is the results too
> obvious?
> > Uh,
> > > I
> > > > forget, they don't want majority rules.
> > >
> > >
> > > If enough parents within a school raised
> their
> > > voices the sound would be heard. If a true
> > > majority of the school population gets behind
> > AP
> > > rather than IB then it would likely happen.
> > Not
> > > overnight but eventually. It would be naive
> to
> > > think that a group of vocal outsiders could
> > make
> > > the change from afar. If the RD happens and
> > > enough parents want a change the school, then
> > > change would occur. However, the requested
> > change
> > > would have to reflect the will of a true
> > majority
> > > not a vocal minority.
> >
> > The staff and school board will resist mightily.
>
> > They will do everything in their power to
> convince
> > you that you are wrong and IB is the best
> program.
> > If that fails, they will tell you it's too
> > expensive to change programs now. It's too
> > expensive to train teachers to teach AP, or to
> > hire new AP teachers, blah, blah, blah. They
> will
> > also tell you that if you really want AP you
> can
> > pupil place elsewhere. They will take the path
> of
> > least resistance and that means sticking with
> what
> > they've got. PLUS, it fits their ideology.
> South
> > Lakes won't give up IB. But they might be
> > persuaded to add a few more AP courses.
> Perhaps
> > even a calculus class, eventually.
>
>
>
> SLHS will do what it is compelled to do. They
> like any other school administration would listen
> to a solid majority. Not ffx underground post,
> not a vocal minority. when the majority presents
> itself, they will listen.


Are you suggesting, the anticipated students from Fox Mill, MI and Floris will tilt the balance in AP favor? In all fairness, is this the right way to wage the battle? I do not think it is practical/democratic to force an IB program on kids that are being redistricted. To this, they will come back say pupil placement is always an option.

To me all this mess would have been avoided, if these maps were drawn in back office and letters went out to these 3 communities,

Next year we will be offering an exciting IB program for high school in Reston, South Lakes. Transportation will be provided to all kids who want to get into this universally accepted program.

At least I would have done it this way.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 21, 2008 11:11AM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Floris Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style
> > survey,
> > > > where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal
> > number
> > > of
> > > > representatives in a committee and conduct
> > the
> > > > research/survey? Is the results too
> obvious?
> > Uh,
> > > I
> > > > forget, they don't want majority rules.
> > >
> > >
> > > If enough parents within a school raised
> their
> > > voices the sound would be heard. If a true
> > > majority of the school population gets behind
> > AP
> > > rather than IB then it would likely happen.
> > Not
> > > overnight but eventually. It would be naive
> to
> > > think that a group of vocal outsiders could
> > make
> > > the change from afar. If the RD happens and
> > > enough parents want a change the school, then
> > > change would occur. However, the requested
> > change
> > > would have to reflect the will of a true
> > majority
> > > not a vocal minority.
> >
> > The staff and school board will resist mightily.
>
> > They will do everything in their power to
> convince
> > you that you are wrong and IB is the best
> program.
> > If that fails, they will tell you it's too
> > expensive to change programs now. It's too
> > expensive to train teachers to teach AP, or to
> > hire new AP teachers, blah, blah, blah. They
> will
> > also tell you that if you really want AP you
> can
> > pupil place elsewhere. They will take the path
> of
> > least resistance and that means sticking with
> what
> > they've got. PLUS, it fits their ideology.
> South
> > Lakes won't give up IB. But they might be
> > persuaded to add a few more AP courses.
> Perhaps
> > even a calculus class, eventually.
>
>
>
> SLHS will do what it is compelled to do. They
> like any other school administration would listen
> to a solid majority. Not ffx underground post,
> not a vocal minority. when the majority presents
> itself, they will listen.


It would be nice if that were to happen, but I wouldn't count on it. For one thing SL is the only IB high school in the west county. For those who want to participate in the IB program, if SL converts back to AP, then these new IB west county students would have to go to Marshall or Robinson. That is rather far away. Which is why a lot of people have been arguing about having SL develop a special magnet program for the IB students.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Can of worms
Date: February 21, 2008 11:15AM

WHY_IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is what I said, and I stand by it. I will not
> sugar coat it.
>
> I am so fed up with this RD business, I am going
> to lay down my theory in very raw words.
>
> IB is put in schools which are struggling with
> minorities and underenrollment problem because,
>
> *** THEY DO NOT WANT THE WHITE POPULATION TO
> LEAVE. ***
>
> IB draws more money and resources from the school
> board which the top 15-20% kids enjoy. This also
> gives this population a incentive to stay in a
> lagging school.
>
> We all know, the African Americans and Hispanics
> are not going to survive this rigorous training.
> They don't have the resources and they don't have
> the diligence.
>
> That is the reason they will never let go of IB
> from South Lakes. It serves well for top bracket
> of population.
>
> Rest of the kids who cares !!


Just so I understand, IB is for the top 10-15 percent? I assume from your post that that group is all white. Correct? So why do the other roughly 85% of whites stick around a school like SLHS?

Additionally, your statement suggests that funding is different for IB schools. From a meeting I had with FCPS admiistrators, I understood that $$$s given to schools are based on student populations. It's left to the principala to allocate the $$$s. I understood that IB has specific positions which must be staffed however additional $$s are not provided because the school is or is not IB. Additionally, the formula for $$s allocation is adjusted based on ESOL% and FRL%. What's your source?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 21, 2008 11:18AM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1) Was there a consensus in South Lakes as a community for IB implementation?

This has been described multiple times on this forum. You can use the search function on the comment box to review prior postings on any topic.

There was little notice to the SL community of the change from AP to IB in the 1999-2000 time frame. There was no consultation, discussion or solcitatiion of input. IB was imposed on SL by the Area Superintendent (with Stuy's consent or encouragement?).

Simultaneously, SL was changing principals from Bill Harper to Railly.

So no there was no consensus. None was sought.

> 2) Is there a consensus in all the communities that are being redistricted that
> they want to have an IB program (MI, Fox Mill, Floris)

Unless one hired a public opinion polling company, how could anyone claim to know?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 21, 2008 11:33AM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLHS will do what it is compelled to do.

The building is an inanimate object. Who will compel whom?

If you're referring to Bruce, he's a company man and will do what Betsy and Stuy tell him to do.

> They like any other school administration would listen to a solid majority.

Nothing that has happened at SL over the last 12 years would support that assertion.

How would anyone know what the majority at SL want? There have been no polls, no referendum.

> Not ffx underground post,

No surprise

> not a vocal minority

Actually, most bureacracies do respond to vocal minorities: IB diploma parents, SLPTSA and South Lakes Boundary Study Group, being three examples.

> when the majority presents itself, they will listen.

Short of hiring a public opinion polling company or holding a referendum, how will
anyone know what the majority wants.

I'm all in favor of a majoritarian resolution of the IB/AP issue after an opportunity to inform the affected elementary and middle school parents with a balanced presentation of both alternatives and not an IB sales job.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 21, 2008 11:37AM

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Are you suggesting, the anticipated students from
> Fox Mill, MI and Floris will tilt the balance in
> AP favor? In all fairness, is this the right way
> to wage the battle? I do not think it is
> practical/democratic to force an IB program on
> kids that are being redistricted. To this, they
> will come back say pupil placement is always an
> option.
>
> To me all this mess would have been avoided, if
> these maps were drawn in back office and letters
> went out to these 3 communities,
>
> Next year we will be offering an exciting IB
> program for high school in Reston, South Lakes.
> Transportation will be provided to all kids who
> want to get into this universally accepted
> program.
>
> At least I would have done it this way.


Not making that suggestion at all. Stating that if an active and organized majority exist, change could occur. Just like there are probably parents at Westfield, Oakton, and Chantilly that would like to see IB there are certainly parents in SLHS that would welcome AP. The questions become does the majority of the new SLHS population (assuming RD occurs) want to move away from IB. Since FCPS does not have a policy to offer the same (not similiar) course of study at each school, they are not compelled to be moved by the argument that, "i don't want to go because it's different". The only rule for FCPS is that each HS offers the same set of courses from the FCPS core course list. That can be accomplished in both AP and IB schools.

As far as the SB changing the rule (by providing transportation) to encourage PP out of SLHS. That is certainly unlikely (and should not happen) to happen because the SB takes the position that either program of study is viable, challenging, and world class. If the SB takes the position that either is inferior they should shut down the program immediately and pull out of all FCPS schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: leave_us_alone ()
Date: February 21, 2008 11:45AM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> leave_us_alone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Are you suggesting, the anticipated students
> from
> > Fox Mill, MI and Floris will tilt the balance
> in
> > AP favor? In all fairness, is this the right
> way
> > to wage the battle? I do not think it is
> > practical/democratic to force an IB program on
> > kids that are being redistricted. To this, they
> > will come back say pupil placement is always an
> > option.
> >
> > To me all this mess would have been avoided, if
> > these maps were drawn in back office and
> letters
> > went out to these 3 communities,
> >
> > Next year we will be offering an exciting IB
> > program for high school in Reston, South Lakes.
> > Transportation will be provided to all kids who
> > want to get into this universally accepted
> > program.
> >
> > At least I would have done it this way.

> As far as the SB changing the rule (by providing
> transportation) to encourage PP out of SLHS. That
> is certainly unlikely (and should not happen) to
> happen because the SB takes the position that
> either program of study is viable, challenging,
> and world class. If the SB takes the position
> that either is inferior they should shut down the
> program immediately and pull out of all FCPS
> schools.


Please read what I am saying. I am not asking for transportation for students PP ing out of SSL. How did that get in your head?

I am saying as a way to give incentive to students to try the IB program at south lakes provide them with transportation.

I may be wrong, but you SLHS guys think RD is done deal and like someone said Master Stu has delivered. Although odds are against all of us who oppose RD, hope is a birth right of everyone. Call me optimistic.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: wild ()
Date: February 21, 2008 11:59AM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:

> As far as the SB changing the rule (by providing
> transportation) to encourage PP out of SLHS. That
> is certainly unlikely (and should not happen) to
> happen because the SB takes the position that
> either program of study is viable, challenging,
> and world class. If the SB takes the position
> that either is inferior they should shut down the
> program immediately and pull out of all FCPS
> schools.


Just shows how crazy it is that the structure of your children's education is arbitrarily dependent upon which side of a road you live - and that the SB can, and will, by fiat, throw them from one bucket to another

wild - you've got to love it

Many families have real problems with bus-less pupil placement as both parents work - which also makes the SB proposal for afternoon depot busing of TJ students so crazy.

Saying "its ok, you can always PP out of IB" is just not enough - its like saying "you can either pay your mortgage or get the education you thought you were paying taxes for"

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: racialProfiling ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:29PM

The real reason for getting east floris in SLHS is that that area is majority non white. SLHS has a large non white population and the completely white School board wants to keep the non whites contained at some schools. Bunch of racists.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: racialProfiling ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:35PM

racialProfiling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real reason for getting east floris in SLHS is
> that that area is majority non white. SLHS has a
> large non white population and the completely
> white School board wants to keep the non whites
> contained at some schools. Bunch of racists.


If you watch ch 21, whenever asians spoke Stu Gibson turned his head away. Late in the night when a 6th grader student of color spoke Stu hung his head and started to do something else

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: racialProfile doesn't fly ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:41PM

racialProfiling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> racialProfiling Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The real reason for getting east floris in SLHS
> is
> > that that area is majority non white. SLHS has
> a
> > large non white population and the completely
> > white School board wants to keep the non whites
> > contained at some schools. Bunch of racists.
>
>
> If you watch ch 21, whenever asians spoke Stu
> Gibson turned his head away. Late in the night
> when a 6th grader student of color spoke Stu hung
> his head and started to do something else


sorry - he does that to anyone who doesn't agree with him - you'll have to try harder

I call troll....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:56PM

If there's no work session today, how will we know what they plan to vote on?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 12:58PM

racialProfile doesn't fly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> racialProfiling Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > racialProfiling Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The real reason for getting east floris in
> SLHS
> > is
> > > that that area is majority non white. SLHS
> has
> > a
> > > large non white population and the completely
> > > white School board wants to keep the non
> whites
> > > contained at some schools. Bunch of racists.
> >
> >
> > If you watch ch 21, whenever asians spoke Stu
> > Gibson turned his head away. Late in the night
> > when a 6th grader student of color spoke Stu
> hung
> > his head and started to do something else
>
>
> sorry - he does that to anyone who doesn't agree
> with him - you'll have to try harder
>
> I call troll....

Who knows? Some in the Asian community have set some priorities like - math-science-tech. If anybody's assessment was that IB was better than GTC and AP and TJ, people would have pupil placed in droves to the point that FCPS would have needed a lottery. That did not happen.

Maybe they think all the ex-Carson GTC kids will morph into IB diploma candidtaes while parenst are hoping for TJ. Carson sends almost no one to South Lakes IB.

Private schools have waitlists just like colleges. Do FCPS IB schools? No. Whose finger was on the on-off switch for speakers? Where's the IB at Storck's South County? He should be familiar with the attempted escape from Lee - where are the dozens of West Potomac pupil placements into Mount Vernon for IB? IB provides a rational for people to NOT go to Falls Church.

This is different than state dept or the function IB performs internationally [people who move or are stationed in non-home countries ]. DOD schools are most likely not as good as the privates with IB. One little girl from Oak Hill GTC was an impressive speaker.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Pupil Place ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:01PM

If this goes through buses will come to our neighborhood to pick up a handful of kids from HS that are grandfathered. However new 9th graders who pupil place back to their original school will be forced to get their own transportation. In a normal pupil placement providing transportation makes sense, there are no buses coming in to neighborhoods from other school attendance areas. In this case the same buses will come in, most of the same kids will be attending their original schools but only half will get the bus? Now as a tax payer that ruffles me.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Job Ranks ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:13PM

Everyone on this board does realize that every single solitary Fairfax County high school ranks in the top three percent of all 27,000 public high school nationwide, right?

And exactly how many really truly decided to live HERE because of schools and not because of jobs and congestion? The VAST majority of homeowner locations are determined not by school districts, but by jobs and commuting distances. THEN people try for best schools, usually concerned with the top third in the area. That is a fact. Check it out at Fortune magazine. You lose your job, think your next move will be related to the best school in Pittsburgh when your job offer is from Detroit? Not likely.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Nope ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:16PM

It's ok if you based on your house hunt purely on your job location. But please don't make that generalization to other people, especially if the community being targeted is Asian.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Don'tThinkSo ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:19PM

I can say for all my friends from Asian, we live here mainly because of the school. Most of us moved more than once to get to the school we want. Some of us work in MD, like my husband. But we still live here because our kids love our school.

Job Ranks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone on this board does realize that every
> single solitary Fairfax County high school ranks
> in the top three percent of all 27,000 public high
> school nationwide, right?
>
> And exactly how many really truly decided to live
> HERE because of schools and not because of jobs
> and congestion? The VAST majority of homeowner
> locations are determined not by school districts,
> but by jobs and commuting distances. THEN people
> try for best schools, usually concerned with the
> top third in the area. That is a fact. Check it
> out at Fortune magazine. You lose your job, think
> your next move will be related to the best school
> in Pittsburgh when your job offer is from Detroit?
> Not likely.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:19PM

Thomas More Wrote:
> I'm all in favor of a majoritarian resolution of
> the IB/AP issue after an opportunity to inform the
> affected elementary and middle school parents with
> a balanced presentation of both alternatives and
> not an IB sales job.

ma·jor·i·tar·i·an
adj. resulting from or based on rule by the majority in any given group
n. somebody who believes that a group should be ruled in the way chosen by the majority of its members

Thank you. A new word for me.

But you make a far more important point. The IB/AP issue should be voted upon only after an opportunity to COMPLETELY inform the affected elementary and middle school parents [I would add current ninth grade parents] with a BALANCED presentation of both alternatives - not just another IB sales pitch. It would take at least one session just to compare what is taught in AP and IB English and social studies and how students are evaluated. A second session would be needed to compare math and science courses, a third session to discuss college recognition, and a fourth session to discuss remaining questions like "what about accommodations for students in Special Ed? What about make up exams? [hint - last time I checked there ARE no makeup exams in the IB world.]

Have any of you actually read the 16-page IBO sales brochure FCPS included in its Feb 08 "Advanced Placement And International Baccalaureate Fact Book"? It would take a full session just to explore the issues this one brochure brings to mind. Full-paragraph examples - no "cherry picking":

Page 5 of the brochure: "Assessment of performance in TOK. Each student is required to submit one essay between 1,200 and 1,600 words, from a list of 10 titles prescribed by the IBO for each examination session. In addition, the student makes a 10-minute presentation to the class and writes a self-evaluation report that includes a concise description of the presentation and answers to questions provided by the IBO." After a hundred-hour class a student must write a 1200 word paper and give a ten minute presentation. This is a "challenging" programme?

Page 10: "Group 4:experimental sciences The subjects available in group 4 are the following: biology, chemistry, physics, environmental systems (at SL only), design technology. Experimental science subjects promote an understanding of the concepts, principles and applications of the respective disciplines, together with an appreciation of the methodology of the experimental sciences in general. Students develop practical laboratory skills as well as the ability to work collaboratively through participating in an interdisciplinary group project. A common curriculum model applies to all subjects in group 4.This model offers a parallel structure at both higher and standard levels whereby all candidates study a core of material which is supplemented by various options. Examination of local and international examples helps students develop an awareness of moral and ethical issues and promotes social responsibility." Sorry, not quite what I am looking for in a science class for my child.

Page 11: "Mathematical studies SL is designed to provide a realistic option for students with varied backgrounds and abilities who are not likely to require mathematics beyond the Diploma Programme. Students develop the skills needed to cope with the mathematical demands of a technological society; they also apply mathematics to real-life situations. A substantial piece of personal research, in the form of a project, is a requirement of the course." This is a course in a college prep curriculum? What American college student is not required to master more math than this?

Page 15: "Candidates for the diploma normally take all examinations in a single session at the end of the two-year period of preparation, but some choose to take one or two examinations at the end of their first year. Candidates who take their examinations over two sessions are classified as anticipated candidates for the first session.They may take examinations in not more than two subjects, on condition that these subjects are offered at standard level (SL) only and that the recommended number of teaching hours has been completed. Examinations in group 2 ab initio beginner level languages are available only in the candidate’s final year of the programme." If I read this correctly, only two SL exams may be taken by juniors, so seniors MUST take at least 3 HL and an SL exam, right? What happened to all those students who reportedly completed HL math as juniors?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Pupil Place ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:23PM

I have got to agree with NOPE here. I have commuted to Maryland and not moved because of my kids, I have commuted to DC and not moved because of my kids.

Many people build the better part of their lives around their children. This is not uncommon. We are parents afterall. It is not so common to move children around because your job changes. Many of us would gladly sacrifice a job that required us to uproot our kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 21, 2008 01:32PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > ... the idea that it
> > was purposefully placed in only low-scoring
> > schools, which is what Neen said, is false.
> >
> > Can we agree on that?
>
> ---
> NO.
>
> Neen wrote, "... IB was put into schools to stop
> White Flight. The director of instruction said so
> at the time. That's why it was put in the schools
> with the highest percentages of minority students.
> They were trying to convince middle and upper
> income parents that their children would have
> their own 'special' program, separate from the
> general populations of those schools. They also
> hoped that it would increase the populations at
> these schools by selling IB in the AP schools so
> that students would pupil place into these schools
> that were losing population. Yes, IB is WAY more
> expensive than AP."
>
> Read again what I posted. What Neen posted was
> correct - that is how IB was initially established
> in FCPS. The train was rolling merrily along,
> Stuart and Mt Vernon, then Marshall, then Edison.
> Two things happened: 1) People began noticing only
> low-testing schools were getting IB AND 2) FCPS
> staff members who love IB wanted to place it in
> every FCPS high school. The plan appeared to be to
> add two additional high schools per year; huge
> Robinson got IB the same time as Edison. Next to
> be added to the train were South Lakes and
> Woodson, then Annandale and Lee.
>
> Woodson derailed the entire process and IB never
> got to the last two "low testing" schools of the
> time, Falls Church and West Potomac - or to any
> other FCPS high school.
>
> Neen is also correct that IB is inarguably and
> considerably more expensive than AP.
>
> None of this is meant in any way to imply IB
> CAUSES schools to BECOME "low testing." Quite the
> opposite - the FCPS IB schools already had low
> test scores when they were given IB, except at
> huge Robinson. The only FCPS IB school with "high
> testing" students, Woodson, got rid of IB as soon
> as that community saw what was happening.


I recall that South Lakes had top SAT scores in 2000? It was not a "low testing school" when IB was brought in.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:36PM

Job Ranks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone on this board does realize that every
> single solitary Fairfax County high school ranks
> in the top three percent of all 27,000 public high
> school nationwide, right?
>
Do you use as your standard the ranking given by Jay Mathews of the Post in his Challenge Index? The only criteria he uses is how many AP and/or IB exams are taken divided by the number of students who graduate that year.

Since the divisor is the number of grads, school with a huge drop out rate and few graduates looks good.

Mathews does not care how well the students perform on the test, or if they learned anything; he only cares that they showed up on the day of the exam.

FCPS requires and PAYS FOR the exams. Lots of FCPS kids DO show up for the exam, and thus all FCPS high schools look good in the Mathews ranking.

Except for one: Mathews refuses to allow Jefferson onto his list using as his reason students have to take a test to get in. Are you arguing Jefferson is NOT in the top three percent of all American high schools?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: anAsian ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:39PM

I moved here only for good school district . If RD happens I will move again. Will NEVER NEVER send my kid to South Lakes.

Don'tThinkSo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can say for all my friends from Asian, we live
> here mainly because of the school. Most of us
> moved more than once to get to the school we want.
> Some of us work in MD, like my husband. But we
> still live here because our kids love our school.
>
> Job Ranks Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Everyone on this board does realize that every
> > single solitary Fairfax County high school
> ranks
> > in the top three percent of all 27,000 public
> high
> > school nationwide, right?
> >
> > And exactly how many really truly decided to
> live
> > HERE because of schools and not because of jobs
> > and congestion? The VAST majority of homeowner
> > locations are determined not by school
> districts,
> > but by jobs and commuting distances. THEN
> people
> > try for best schools, usually concerned with
> the
> > top third in the area. That is a fact. Check it
> > out at Fortune magazine. You lose your job,
> think
> > your next move will be related to the best
> school
> > in Pittsburgh when your job offer is from
> Detroit?
> > Not likely.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: schools matter ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:47PM

Job Ranks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone on this board does realize that every
> single solitary Fairfax County high school ranks
> in the top three percent of all 27,000 public high
> school nationwide, right?
>

That says more about the other 97% than it does about FFX

And it shows up in the budget deficit, America's decline with respect to the tiger countries and the loss of our technological leadership


> And exactly how many really truly decided to live
> HERE because of schools and not because of jobs
> and congestion? The VAST majority of homeowner
> locations are determined not by school districts,
> but by jobs and commuting distances. \

Not in FFX - its a mobile, highly educated workforce - many of us go where we think our kids will get the best education

its a 'flight of the creative classes' thing

I highly value science and technology and don't think I'm asian (unless its like being Irish on St Pats day)

We had a choice of houses and chose with schools being THE major priority. I don't think we're alone - that's why screwing with it has brought thousands of families out

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Good Fortune ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:52PM

Job Ranks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone on this board does realize that every
> single solitary Fairfax County high school ranks
> in the top three percent of all 27,000 public high
> school nationwide, right?
>
> And exactly how many really truly decided to live
> HERE because of schools and not because of jobs
> and congestion? The VAST majority of homeowner
> locations are determined not by school districts,
> but by jobs and commuting distances. THEN people
> try for best schools, usually concerned with the
> top third in the area. That is a fact. Check it
> out at Fortune magazine. You lose your job, think
> your next move will be related to the best school
> in Pittsburgh when your job offer is from Detroit?
> Not likely.

You take your quote from Fortune rather than Parenting Magazine. I bet they would present a different poll. The polls supporting this RD just keep coming!
The fact is our area is not typical. We are not auto workers facing plant closures in Ohio or Detroit. The job market in the DC area is insulated by the Federal Government which gives most of us the ability to stick it out and make our families a priority. Sorry to hear that your situation may be different.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:56PM

schools matter Wrote:...
> I highly value science and technology and don't
> think I'm asian (unless its like being Irish on St
> Pats day)
>
> We had a choice of houses and chose with schools
> being THE major priority. I don't think we're
> alone - that's why screwing with it has brought
> thousands of families out

People are also faced with a difficult real estate market and budgets [personal]. In 2012, the same 700 kids will cost more to educate under IB than AP. Overhead to IB plus overhead to FCPS. What do all those administrators do if we have to pay IB to run-supervise schools and curriculum? Are we Philadelphia? What's next? Edison schools [low average student] and IBO [high average plus student]jointly running a school?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:58PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> I recall that South Lakes had top SAT scores in
> 2000? It was not a "low testing school" when IB
> was brought in.

I have been trying to avoid addressing this issue because it will doubtless be taken wrong, but I do not see that South Lakes was ever a "top testing" school within FCPS. Using YOUR specifec criteria of 2000 SAT scores, SLHS made the middle third, just barely above average.

High School 2000 Comb

Jefferson 1453
Langley 1177
Madison 1148
McLean 1137
Woodson 1120
L Braddock 1117
Oakton 1111
W Springfield 1109

Rob'son 1105
S Lakes 1103
FCPS AVERAGE 1098
Chantilly 1076
Centreville 1068
Herndon 1063
Fairfax 1062
W Pot 1049

Marshall 1040
Hayfield 1029
Lee 1029
Stuart 1012
Falls Ch 1001
Mt. Vernon 983
Annandale 977
Edison 963

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ferfux ()
Date: February 21, 2008 01:59PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:02PM

anAsian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I moved here only for good school district . If RD
> happens I will move again. Will NEVER NEVER send
> my kid to South Lakes.
>
>anAsian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I moved here only for good school district . If RD
> happens I will move again. Will NEVER NEVER send
> my kid to South Lakes.
>

Can you tell me specifically why you would "NEVER NEVER send my kid to South Lakes?"

I'd really like to know.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 21, 2008 02:10PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > I recall that South Lakes had top SAT scores in
> > 2000? It was not a "low testing school" when
> IB
> > was brought in.
>
> I have been trying to avoid addressing this issue
> because it will doubtless be taken wrong, but I do
> not see that South Lakes was ever a "top testing"
> school within FCPS. Using YOUR specifec criteria
> of 2000 SAT scores, SLHS made the middle third,
> just barely above average.
>
> High School 2000 Comb
>
> Jefferson 1453
> Langley 1177
> Madison 1148
> McLean 1137
> Woodson 1120
> L Braddock 1117
> Oakton 1111
> W Springfield 1109
>
> Rob'son 1105
> S Lakes 1103
> FCPS AVERAGE 1098
> Chantilly 1076
> Centreville 1068
> Herndon 1063
> Fairfax 1062
> W Pot 1049
>
> Marshall 1040
> Hayfield 1029
> Lee 1029
> Stuart 1012
> Falls Ch 1001
> Mt. Vernon 983
> Annandale 977
> Edison 963


I should have said top scoring relative to the other schools in the study. Oakton is 1111. Do you think SL score of 1103 is significantly different? No way. And notice it is above the rest of the schools in this study.

By Neen's logic, Chantilly and other lower testing schools should have gotten IB before South Lakes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2008 02:12PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: mr e ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:13PM

1. So pretty much there is almost no real reason for redistricting. None of the goals will be met from this redistricting.

2. The school board needs to look at why there are low test scores at certain high schools. They need to look at the elementary schools and middle schools, and fix somethings there which may not be working. Also they need to make sure to much low income housing is not built together. It shows that if you have all low income people together, who are not exposed to many asoects of life, will create failure. So the zoning of schools also needs to be looked at so there is a better mix, so students from low income areas have more exposure to what is possible in life if they work hard and study hard. Without that exposure they don't always see themselves as college bound, or able to pull themselves out of their situations.

3. The Langley and Madison areas both need to be looked at for a real boundary study to happen. They are both at capacity as well. By not doing this, especially with Langley shows the school board is up to something, or at least trying to seperate people by race and incomes to some level. The school board should not have it out for students. They are there to help all of the students get the best education possible, not to care about politics. If a lawsuite happens the school board will have to explain in great detail why they didn't have Langley and Madison in the study.
4. The AP vs IB is another issue, people prefer what they know and are used to. IB works in Fairfax county because of all the international students, and students moving in and out of the country when their parents have a say 3 year contract over seas. However IB needs to be looked carefully, due to the fact only small numbers complete the diploma, this can't go unoticed. Due to this on fact IB should be in an academy like program at atleast two high schools. Students and parents should also be fully informed of the choices available to them.


5. Split feeders need to end period. You don't see them in Loudoun County. True nobody is stopping people from being friends with those in other schools, but still breaking up of friends just because of the street one happens to live on with out the openning of a new school, or something of that sort is not a good thing. Parents who pull their child out of the neighborhood school for private school, or a magnet program are making a choice to take their kids away from their friends, not having it forced on them. Therefore those kids are happy in general, however if you were to ask them 2 or 3 years down the road, most likely unless they were heavily involved in the same activities as their neighborhood friends they probably arent as close with them as they once were ( this is not always the case though, it would depend on if all the childs friends all go to the same one ot two schools, how involved in activities the child is in the new and former schools, and each child ask the students from smaller town run school systems in say MA, RI and CT, who leave those towns to attend private school in somewhat distant locations, they will tell you its hard to keep up with old friends, they don't dislike them, just not as close anymore, going to college is different because everyone is leaving and doing the same thing at their school of choice so those previous friendships lef behind don't break up as bad.


6. The school board needs better boundary maps on its websites, and better explanation to newcomers of the split feeder situation. The way the pyramids are arranged it looks like all the students from those elementary schools feed into that middle school and all feed into the same high school, clearly we know this is often not the case. Parents need to know how these things actually work when buying a house in fairfax county, especially in the western part. They also need to know that they might be redistricted, and know the history of redistricting, so they can make the right decision.


7. As far as the race card goes, it does have some merit, but I also think its more about economics. history shows children of low income homes where the parents may not have the resources or time are not exposed to as much of the knowledge that middle and upper class students are exposed to such as outings to museums and things such as expensive activites like dance lessons, music lessons, where they can learn more from. If the parent is less educated they often, not always dont have as much knowledge to give a child, or time to read to them, so these children can start out behind, it starts early on, people dont just show up at high schools and then do poorly on tests.

8. As far as parents of Fox Mills and Floris being worried their children will attend SouthLakes, look at the facts, it is still in the 5 percent of high schools nationally, most parents evne from high performing suburbs in other areas of the country would love to have their children enrolled there. South Lakes students still get into the top colleges those parents from Fox Mill want their kids to attend. The Fox Mill parents are involved with their childrens education, so achievement shouldnt be a problem, since we all know a student can accomplsi anything at any school if the parents are involved. So if the Fox Mill parents did their job then everything at South Lakes will be find. They just need to go and make sure AP is also offerend as a concession due to the fact they have no real choice in the matter.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Taormina ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:20PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Page 11: "Mathematical studies SL is designed to
> provide a realistic option for students with
> varied backgrounds and abilities who are not
> likely to require mathematics beyond the Diploma
> Programme. Students develop the skills needed to
> cope with the mathematical demands of a
> technological society; they also apply mathematics
> to real-life situations. A substantial piece of
> personal research, in the form of a project, is a
> requirement of the course." This is a course in a
> college prep curriculum? What American college
> student is not required to master more math than
> this?

Actually, quite a few. Unless you are majoring in engineering, nursing, physical/natural science, economics or math I think that it highly unlikely that you are going to take much math in college beyond statistics and some majors do not require any math at all, even as part of a core curriculum.

While I don't disagree that math competency is an important life skill, what purpose does Calculus serve for an English, history, theater or romance language major? Math Studies was an appropriate capstone course for non-math students like my daughter who is majoring in Outdoor Adventure Leadership at Ithaca.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Can of worms
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:22PM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
> ... your statement suggests that funding
> is different for IB schools. From a meeting I had
> with FCPS admiistrators, I understood that $$$s
> given to schools are based on student populations.
> It's left to the principala to allocate the $$$s.
> I understood that IB has specific positions which
> must be staffed however additional $$s are not
> provided because the school is or is not IB.
> Additionally, the formula for $$s allocation is
> adjusted based on ESOL% and FRL%. What's your
> source?

You misunderstand. Schools are not given money for staff; they are given staff positions. This makes sense if you think about it. If they had the cash, many schools might choose to hire two new teachers in place of their one experienced and more well-paid teacher.

There are quite a few positions that are "one per high school" whether it is a large or small school. A small school therefore has more more staff per student. Among these "one each" positions are:
Principal
Director of Student Activities
Safety and Security Specialist
Librarian
Assistant Librarian
Assessment Coach
Certified Athletic Trainer
School-Based Technology Specialist (SBTS)
Technology Support Specialist (TSSpec)
Guidance Director
Career Center Specalist
Band Director
Reading Teacher

And yes, IB schools DO get an additional staff position to coordinate IB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: math/science matters ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:27PM

Taormina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Actually, quite a few. Unless you are majoring in
> engineering, nursing, physical/natural science,
> economics or math I think that it highly unlikely
> that you are going to take much math in college
> beyond statistics and some majors do not require
> any math at all, even as part of a core
> curriculum.
>
> While I don't disagree that math competency is an
> important life skill, what purpose does Calculus
> serve for an English, history, theater or romance
> language major? Math Studies was an appropriate
> capstone course for non-math students like my
> daughter who is majoring in Outdoor Adventure
> Leadership at Ithaca.


Pop quiz... is national competitiveness based on

a)engineering, nursing, physical/natural science, economics and math

or

b)English, history, theater and romance language


I love history and theatre - but they don't pay the national rent

National priorities have to be science, math, engineering, IT, bio and nano

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: I Give Up ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:29PM

OK. I give up.

IB equals the IB Diploma. Only 5% of students benefit.

Ergo

AP equals the FCPS AP Honors Diploma. Only 5% of students benefit (actually, fewer).

Ergo

Get rid of them BOTH! Too much money is spent on programs that benefit too few kids.

And what about all those kids who never take a single AP or IB or honors class?

Get rid of honors courses, too! They don't benefit the whole population

Let's go back to General Education for All. Talk about saving money!!!! We'll call it GEA.

Gee.

Kurt Vonnegut would laugh in his grave, the prescient fool!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Good Fortune ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:41PM

Old Timer-

Polarize- to serparate into opposed or antagonistic groups, viewpoints, etc.

This word defines what has occurred as a result of this flawed divisive process.

Many of us feel as 'never,never' does. Not due to SLHS but due to the callous few who have discredited us as the 'job ranks' poster has and as Stu Gibson has, as the SLPTSA group has referring to us as racists or elitists or by stating that we have entitlement complexes any time anyone says they wish to stay where they are. You are apparently the only community allowed to identify yourself with your school- Proud Seahawk etc.

Just once it would be inspirational to see SL RD supporters put themselves in our shoes. Rather than name calling or dismissing our concerns. Put yourself in our position. Many of us have read all the IB info, met with SBMs, gone to South Lakes and more to try to understand this situation and the perspectives of those of you that want this change. Perhaps some of you could truly imagine how your 13-14 year old would feel if they were uprooted due to a political process with no warning. You all give the same South Lakes speech -one people loving community- blah blah blah- over and over, frankly to have what you claim to have would take the ability to empathize and that is not on display here.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Taormina ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:41PM

math/science matters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pop quiz... is national competitiveness based on
>
> a)engineering, nursing, physical/natural science,
> economics and math
>
> or
>
> b)English, history, theater and romance language
>
>
> I love history and theatre - but they don't pay
> the national rent
>
> National priorities have to be science, math,
> engineering, IT, bio and nano


But does that mean that EVERYONE needs to study these topics? Everyone is not a "math person" or "science person", so why not offer math and science courses which provide what they need, rather than forcing a square peg into a round hole? My daughter has the math skills that she requires and maintains a 3.8 GPA with an awesome ecotourism internship this summer in Costa Rica. She also has a second major in environmental biology and a minor in Spanish. While she may not support your "national priorities", I think that she is pursuing a career that interests her and has value.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Nope ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:50PM

Taormina,
It'll be very hard to advertise a HS if it doesn't offer challenge courses in Math, Science, etc. It's fine that your daughter's career doesn't require these math skills, but it certainly makes a school less attactive if it can't offer comparable high level math/science courses.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Nope ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:51PM

I mean attractive.
Nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taormina,
> It'll be very hard to advertise a HS if it doesn't
> offer challenge courses in Math, Science, etc.
> It's fine that your daughter's career doesn't
> require these math skills, but it certainly makes
> a school less attactive if it can't offer
> comparable high level math/science courses.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:52PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > I recall that South Lakes had top SAT scores in
> > 2000? It was not a "low testing school" when
> IB
> > was brought in.
>
> I have been trying to avoid addressing this issue
> because it will doubtless be taken wrong, but I do
> not see that South Lakes was ever a "top testing"
> school within FCPS. Using YOUR specifec criteria
> of 2000 SAT scores, SLHS made the middle third,
> just barely above average.
>
> High School 2000 Comb
>
> Jefferson 1453
> Langley 1177
> Madison 1148
> McLean 1137
> Woodson 1120
> L Braddock 1117
> Oakton 1111
> W Springfield 1109
>
> Rob'son 1105
> S Lakes 1103
> FCPS AVERAGE 1098
> Chantilly 1076
> Centreville 1068
> Herndon 1063
> Fairfax 1062
> W Pot 1049
>
> Marshall 1040
> Hayfield 1029
> Lee 1029
> Stuart 1012
> Falls Ch 1001
> Mt. Vernon 983
> Annandale 977
> Edison 963

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > I recall that South Lakes had top SAT scores in
> > 2000? It was not a "low testing school" when
> IB
> > was brought in.
>
> I have been trying to avoid addressing this issue
> because it will doubtless be taken wrong, but I do
> not see that South Lakes was ever a "top testing"
> school within FCPS. Using YOUR specifec criteria
> of 2000 SAT scores, SLHS made the middle third,
> just barely above average.
>
> High School 2000 Comb
>
> Jefferson 1453
> Langley 1177
> Madison 1148
> McLean 1137
> Woodson 1120
> L Braddock 1117
> Oakton 1111
> W Springfield 1109
>
> Rob'son 1105
> S Lakes 1103
> FCPS AVERAGE 1098
> Chantilly 1076
> Centreville 1068
> Herndon 1063
> Fairfax 1062
> W Pot 1049
>
> Marshall 1040
> Hayfield 1029
> Lee 1029
> Stuart 1012
> Falls Ch 1001
> Mt. Vernon 983
> Annandale 977
> Edison 963



The average doesn't tell you enough as it is skewed by TJ's scores. Pull that out and recalculate the average or attribute those kids back to their base school. Since SAT scores are directly correlated to demographics, we would expect that Langley would be #1. Since TJ kids are typically white and wealthy, same goes.

Either way, SL scores were in the top half of the county, respectable. They were only a few points (8) below Oakton and ABOVE Chantilly AND Herndon. Of all the schools in the West County, how many others have the same percentage of subsized housing stock?

I believe this is about the time when Reston's aging in place started to have an impact. Reston was mostly built out. The only new SFH for young families to be built are the Toll Brothers, Gulick Homes, Winchester, and NV homes properties all in the Forest Edge elementary district and on the outskirts of Reston. Add a level or increase in the subsized housing stock and the addition of IB, a non-standard program, and the inevitable occurred.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: When Is It Fair? ()
Date: February 21, 2008 02:53PM

Every single parent can empathize with those who have created ties to a school community, and who have kids who were looking forward to going to one school and now may have to go to another. There is plenty of empathy among South Lakes pyramid parents and the community at large, as much as you'd like to believe they are all heartless Machiavellians. Thousands of families over the years in growing and changing communities have faced this in northern Virginia. Loudoun families go through this regularly, since they chose to live in a growing county. They will continue to face this for as long as Fairfax has, since it is growing westward by the month.

Are you suggesting that when children don't want to leave what they think they are familiar with that parents should accede to these desires no matter what?

Under what circustances would you allow a boundary change that sends your child to a different high school than the one you expected him or her to go to?

I really want to know. Please give us a list that describes when it is "fair" to have a boundary change. And then it would be nice to tie this list to the realities of Fairfax County.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:00PM

oops, messed up



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2008 03:12PM by fm/c/o parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:01PM

When Is It Fair? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every single parent can empathize with those who
> have created ties to a school community, and who
> have kids who were looking forward to going to one
> school and now may have to go to another. There is
> plenty of empathy among South Lakes pyramid
> parents and the community at large, as much as
> you'd like to believe they are all heartless
> Machiavellians. Thousands of families over the
> years in growing and changing communities have
> faced this in northern Virginia. Loudoun families
> go through this regularly, since they chose to
> live in a growing county. They will continue to
> face this for as long as Fairfax has, since it is
> growing westward by the month.
>
> Are you suggesting that when children don't want
> to leave what they think they are familiar with
> that parents should accede to these desires no
> matter what?
>
> Under what circustances would you allow a boundary
> change that sends your child to a different high
> school than the one you expected him or her to go
> to?
>
> I really want to know. Please give us a list that
> describes when it is "fair" to have a boundary
> change. And then it would be nice to tie this list
> to the realities of Fairfax County.


At least, I personally have never said boundary study is not necessary. What we have been saying is the process has not been fair.

Not fair not to include northern communities in Reston.

Not fair for SL PTA to cherry pick kids they want and don't want.

Not fair to keep on changing parameters in the middle of process.

Not fair to move kids from AP school to IB school without any compromise deal.

I can go on and on ....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:01PM

Job Ranks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone on this board does realize that every
> single solitary Fairfax County high school ranks
> in the top three percent of all 27,000 public high
> school nationwide, right?
>
> And exactly how many really truly decided to live
> HERE because of schools and not because of jobs
> and congestion? The VAST majority of homeowner
> locations are determined not by school districts,
> but by jobs and commuting distances. THEN people
> try for best schools, usually concerned with the
> top third in the area. That is a fact. Check it
> out at Fortune magazine. You lose your job, think
> your next move will be related to the best school
> in Pittsburgh when your job offer is from Detroit?
> Not likely.


No, but you can bet that most of us would try to get the best house we could in the Detroit area, duh. Is this the kind of impressive critical thinking we can expect our kids to be taught in IB?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: math/science matter ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:07PM

Taormina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> But does that mean that EVERYONE needs to study
> these topics? Everyone is not a "math person" or
> "science person", so why not offer math and
> science courses which provide what they need,
> rather than forcing a square peg into a round
> hole? My daughter has the math skills that she
> requires and maintains a 3.8 GPA with an awesome
> ecotourism internship this summer in Costa Rica.
> She also has a second major in environmental
> biology and a minor in Spanish. While she may not
> support your "national priorities", I think that
> she is pursuing a career that interests her and
> has value.

All I'm suggesting is that gold standard challenging science and math courses to support the national priorities (on which FFX's economic success is clearly based) have to be the essential bottom line for high schools

Average opinion on this thread seems to be that AP provides this, and IB, as implemented, does not. You can argue whether that's true or not, but that's what the public believe.

I'm very supportive of a varied liberal education (especially as the US becomes a post-literate nation) but we are also becoming uncompetitive.

Unless SLHS can convince the coerced that its a good option for their kids in math/science, they'll continue to object to that coercion and vote with their feet

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: When Is It Fair? ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:14PM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When Is It Fair? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Every single parent can empathize with those
> who
> > have created ties to a school community, and
> who
> > have kids who were looking forward to going to
> one
> > school and now may have to go to another. There
> is
> > plenty of empathy among South Lakes pyramid
> > parents and the community at large, as much as
> > you'd like to believe they are all heartless
> > Machiavellians. Thousands of families over the
> > years in growing and changing communities have
> > faced this in northern Virginia. Loudoun
> families
> > go through this regularly, since they chose to
> > live in a growing county. They will continue to
> > face this for as long as Fairfax has, since it
> is
> > growing westward by the month.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that when children don't
> want
> > to leave what they think they are familiar with
> > that parents should accede to these desires no
> > matter what?
> >
> > Under what circustances would you allow a
> boundary
> > change that sends your child to a different
> high
> > school than the one you expected him or her to
> go
> > to?
> >
> > I really want to know. Please give us a list
> that
> > describes when it is "fair" to have a boundary
> > change. And then it would be nice to tie this
> list
> > to the realities of Fairfax County.
>
>
> At least, I personally have never said boundary
> study is not necessary. What we have been saying
> is the process has not been fair.
>
> Not fair not to include northern communities in
> Reston.
>
> Not fair for SL PTA to cherry pick kids they want
> and don't want.
>
> Not fair to keep on changing parameters in the
> middle of process.
>
> Not fair to move kids from AP school to IB school
> without any compromise deal.
>
> I can go on and on ....

I asked: When IS it fair? I'm calling the question because I have a suspicion about the answer I might get.

(You see, arguments being used, such as about fragile and inflexible children, won't wash if there ever is a time for a "fair" boundary change. I'd just like to hear people admit this. But they won't.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Fair? ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:18PM

When Is It Fair? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Please give us a list that
> describes when it is "fair" to have a boundary
> change. And then it would be nice to tie this list
> to the realities of Fairfax County.


How about when its a benefit to the families and kids affected - not to their detriment in order to hide performance issues in someone else's school

Make SLHS a success and people will place in - its not clearly not fair to land-grab and annex families solely to solve your problems - but you're getting away with it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Good Fortune ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:24PM

When Is It Fair? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every single parent can empathize with those who
> have created ties to a school community, and who
> have kids who were looking forward to going to one
> school and now may have to go to another. There is
> plenty of empathy among South Lakes pyramid
> parents and the community at large, as much as
> you'd like to believe they are all heartless
> Machiavellians. Thousands of families over the
> years in growing and changing communities have
> faced this in northern Virginia. Loudoun families
> go through this regularly, since they chose to
> live in a growing county. They will continue to
> face this for as long as Fairfax has, since it is
> growing westward by the month.
>
> Are you suggesting that when children don't want
> to leave what they think they are familiar with
> that parents should accede to these desires no
> matter what?
>
> Under what circustances would you allow a boundary
> change that sends your child to a different high
> school than the one you expected him or her to go
> to?
>
> I really want to know. Please give us a list that
> describes when it is "fair" to have a boundary
> change. And then it would be nice to tie this list
> to the realities of Fairfax County.

This is precisely what I meant when I said callous and lack of empathy. Here is how it works I will go first and maybe you will better understand.

I have been to South Lakes High School. I have met Mr. Butler. He is a decent person who is doing an amazing job. He speaks about SLHS in a way that makes me want to send my children there. I am not sold on IB so I wont be sending them. However it is a beautiful school and every child I have met who is a student there BAR NONE has been a delight.

I understand that Mr. Butler believes he needs more students. I understand that people supporting RD are doing so because they feel SLHS needs more students. I do not believe anyone involved in this is EVIL. (okay maybe Stu) he really isnt very nice. However I believe that you believe you need more Students and so does Stu. I think that if a man like Mr.Butler told me that the school would be better if only it had more children and I had a child there I would support his desire for more students.

Here is what I know, two people can look at the same facts and interpret them differently even if they are facts. So again I can agree that pro SL RD people believe they need more students. I can agree that they have the evidence which they believe supports it. Alternatively those of us opposed have presented evidence that refutes it.

I do believe that either way SLHS children will go on with virtually no disruption in their lives. They may feel as though this has tainted their schools reputation but I rather doubt whether worry about their schools reputation will impact their physche or education. Alternatively if this goes through our children will face a major adjustment.

Okay you ask under what circumstances we would allow a boundary change to happen, well we dont have the power to allow or disallow. However speaking only for myself, I would be comfortable with a boundary change if the programs were the same, if the process was more transparent and if the numbers were consistent. Also I would prefer more time to prepare. Unlike members of the SLPTA who have stated repeatedly that this has been in consideration for 4 years, we have known for 4 months. If every group was made aware four years ago we wouldnt be in this dispute. I would also prefer to see a larger area studied. I feel that to single out small groups and pit them against eachother so that you can later state the community supports it is wrong.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:26PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> By Neen's logic, Chantilly and other lower testing
> schools should have gotten IB before South Lakes.

Read Neen's and my comments yet again. AT FIRST IB was introduced to "low testing" schools as a magnet. THEN it appeared that IB was ONLY for "low testing" schools AND some FCPS staff members wanted IB placed in ALL FCPS high schools. Then two "medium" and one "high" testing school were scheduled for IB along with three more "low" testers (at a rate of two schools per year). The "high" testing school (Woodson) rebelled and the whole "IB installation" programme derailed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:28PM

math/science matter Wrote:...
-------------------------------------------------------
> > ...I'm very supportive of a varied liberal education
> (especially as the US becomes a post-literate
> nation) but we are also becoming uncompetitive.
>
> Unless SLHS can convince the coerced that its a
> good option for their kids in math/science,
> they'll continue to object to that coercion and
> vote with their feet

tax dollars are paying for salaries/offices/PR materials in Geneva and Vancouver plus the FCPS non-school based. Does IBO get people to read and grade exams JUST LIKE VA for SOLS? Did Stu go to Geneva or Vancouver? If so, how many went? How often?

Essentially, FCPS -IB relationship is like "outsourcing" curriculum development, operational management, final exams? Could AP and IB test fees also be thought of as paying people to grade BIG finals? If so, AP has a quicker turn around time on the product.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:33PM

Good Fortune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Old Timer-
>
> Polarize- to serparate into opposed or
> antagonistic groups, viewpoints, etc.
>
> This word defines what has occurred as a result of
> this flawed divisive process.
>
> Many of us feel as 'never,never' does. Not due to
> SLHS but due to the callous few who have
> discredited us as the 'job ranks' poster has and
> as Stu Gibson has, as the SLPTSA group has
> referring to us as racists or elitists or by
> stating that we have entitlement complexes any
> time anyone says they wish to stay where they are.
> You are apparently the only community allowed to
> identify yourself with your school- Proud Seahawk
> etc.
>
> Just once it would be inspirational to see SL RD
> supporters put themselves in our shoes. Rather
> than name calling or dismissing our concerns. Put
> yourself in our position. Many of us have read
> all the IB info, met with SBMs, gone to South
> Lakes and more to try to understand this situation
> and the perspectives of those of you that want
> this change. Perhaps some of you could truly
> imagine how your 13-14 year old would feel if they
> were uprooted due to a political process with no
> warning. You all give the same South Lakes speech
> -one people loving community- blah blah blah- over
> and over, frankly to have what you claim to have
> would take the ability to empathize and that is
> not on display here.


Interesting take - polarizing. Go back and read my posts. Never have I name called nor been divisive. In fact, all I've said from the beginning that whomever was redistricted they would be accepted with open arms. My kids are still in elementary school, so I'm just hoping for equally involved parents as myself. And regardless of what you have heard here about SL parents, I've met tons through this process and have been glad of it. There are a couple of IB fanatics but everyone else has been as normal as the rest of the overjealous NOVA helicopter parents - ha ha.

I think it is disingeneous to blame the SLPTSA and other SL supporters. A few here have called anti-RD people racist because many racists posts have been made. Go back and look at this blog from the beginning. Ok, forget that, it would take too long. But trust me, many a person has said disgusting things about SL students, parents, and staff. SL parents get defensive, no wonder.

When everyone realized that criticizing the students who posted here or calling SL a ghetto school wasn't working to their advantage, they started a new tack. They began to blame SL PTSA and the boundary group and "assumed" they colluded with the SB. Are you joking? If the SB gave two shits what SL parents thought, we woundn't have IB and be underenrolled now, would we?

Then they said, it was an "exodus" of students - fix the programmatic problems at SL first and then we'll come. Ooops, we won't come but someone will. No one bought that when the numbers didn't pan out. The last thing to criticize is IB. Fine do so. Pupil place. I have no skin in this game, yet. I have no control over parental decisions and have stopped trying to convince anyone.

SL parents have had to do the job that should have been done for them - prove that the redistricting should occur. They didn't have the benefits of anything more than anecdotal evidence and they had the added distraction of a facilities staff that put together the most god awful justification - jewelry making, overcrowded football stands, etc.

If Langley and Madison had been involved it wouldn't have helped this process. Other reasons would arise for people to be in opposition. People were opposed to RD before they came up with their justification. Langley, moratorium, SL parents are meanies, IB, became the justification for being opposed.

No one wants change - plain and simple.

I'm asking specifically why an "asian" would never never go to SL. I've wondered why they were so anti-IB as well when many Indian parents like SL and like that it is small. They've figured out that their IB diploma students do get a rigorous programme that is prestigious. I would think that many Asians would like that as well. Not all Asians want to be engineers nor do all potential engineers have to take multi-variable calculus in high school. I didn't. That's what college is for.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Taormina ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:34PM

Nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taormina,
> It'll be very hard to advertise a HS if it doesn't
> offer challenge courses in Math, Science, etc.
> It's fine that your daughter's career doesn't
> require these math skills, but it certainly makes
> a school less attactive if it can't offer
> comparable high level math/science courses.


Maybe I am missing something, but why don't you feel that the IB Math SL/HL courses are challenging and comparable to what is offered at an AP school? Math Studies isn't the ONLY math course offered to IB students and the SL/HL courses seem to have plenty of content and rigor.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:43PM

I Give Up Wrote:
> .. AP equals the FCPS AP Honors Diploma. Only 5% of
> students benefit (actually, fewer).
>
---------
Go back to the beginning. AP does NOT equal the "FCPS AP Honors Diploma."

As I posted quite a while ago, look at Woodson, which was about the same size as South Lakes when it got IB. Go to:
http://www.fcps.edu/woodsonhs/guidance/academics/ai_awards_ap.htm
Last year:
SEVEN Woodson students were "National AP Scholars" (an average grade of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 4 or higher on eight or more of these exams).
67 Woodson students are named as "AP Scholars with Distinction" (an average grade of at least 3.5 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on five or more of these exams).
60 were named as "AP Scholars with Honor" (average grade of at least 3.25 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on four or more of these exams).
130 were "AP Scholars" (grades of 3 or higher on three or more AP Exams).

With 414 Seniors at Woodson last June, it looks like well over fifty percent of the students benefit from AP and are eligible for advanced placement and credit at many American colleges and universities.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:49PM

I'm asking specifically why an "asian" would never never go to SL. I've wondered why they were so anti-IB as well when many Indian parents like SL and like that it is small. They've figured out that their IB diploma students do get a rigorous programme that is prestigious. I would think that many Asians would like that as well. Not all Asians want to be engineers nor do all potential engineers have to take multi-variable calculus in high school. I didn't. That's what college is for.

I will try to answer your question since I am an Asian.

Check this line from you,
Not all Asians want to be engineers nor do all potential engineers have to take multi-variable calculus in high school.

Do you see the word (want) ? That means choice. I have had this discussion with my teenage son. I was convincing him to go for IB. He did not want to. I am an engineer and I never liked arts, languages and I guess he has gone on me. The point is give us a choice, do not force us!! That is what we have been saying all along.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: coercion ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:50PM

Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good Fortune Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Old Timer-
> >

but you've still omitted to mention any reason why our communities should be annexed or why its in the interest of our families or our kids

the whole process has been a disgrace - when SLHS teachers stand up an accuse neighboring communities as racist - when SLHS has been working on this for 4 years and your neighbors get zero notice - when the SB clearly had already made up their mind and ignored the people they're supposed to be representing - then you know somethings rotten in Denmark

Its not in our interests and no-one has given a rational reason why we should be forced to change.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: HooTribe ()
Date: February 21, 2008 03:59PM

Fair? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> How about when its a benefit to the families and
> kids affected - not to their detriment in order to
> hide performance issues in someone else's school
>
> Make SLHS a success and people will place in - its
> not clearly not fair to land-grab and annex
> families solely to solve your problems - but
> you're getting away with it.

So using this logic, Langley, McLean, and Madison families would never have to move because there would be no "benefit" to them - they are the highest rated schools. In fact, this would mean boundary changes could only go in one direction - students would only be moved when they would go to a school that is perceived as being better. Reality is you can't run a large school system like this.

I agree that this process has been poorly managed, but as others have pointed out, it now has become a "throw everything against the wall and hope something sticks approach" to stopping RD. Old Timer does a good job of walking through this in a post above.

For myself, I was open to a magnet school, wanted Langley/Madison included in the study, and want AP expanded, but was 0 for 3 in what I wanted. I look forward to working with any new families to continue improving SL and to get AP put back on the table.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:05PM

Taormina Wrote:
> Maybe I am missing something, but why don't you
> feel that the IB Math SL/HL courses are
> challenging and comparable to what is offered at
> an AP school? Math Studies isn't the ONLY math
> course offered to IB students and the SL/HL
> courses seem to have plenty of content and rigor.

------------
It appears IB HL math is not "working" for FCPS students.

> Posted by: Let's look at the data (IP Logged)
> Date: February 19, 2008 12:25PM
> The FCPS results for Calculus BC for 2007 are as follows:
> Grade Numbers of students
> 5 553
> 4 188
> Total 741
> Percentage of students receiving a 4 or 5 -- 68.8%
> In comparison, 1 student got a 7 on the IB HL math exam, and 7 students got a 6
> on that exam. (Or 8 percent of the 100 kids who took the exam got a 6 or 7.)
> At MIT, the school gives credit for a 6 or 7 on the IB HL math exam, and they
> give credit for a 4 or 5 on the AP Cal BC exam.

And as I have written before, last year in ALL of FCPS ZERO students earned a "7" in ANY IB HL science course.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Nope ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:07PM

Old Timer,
Why 1/3 of schools bordering SLH within 2.5 miles is not mentioned in any of the boundary study? Why SLHS cried hysterically when part of McNair is on the table -- the portion Herndon HS will happily take? Stop pointing fingers. If one doesn't want to improve from within, relying others will not help.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:15PM

When Is It Fair? Wrote:
> ... Under what circustances would you allow a boundary
> change that sends your child to a different high
> school than the one you expected him or her to go to?
>
> I really want to know. Please give us a list that
> describes when it is "fair" to have a boundary
> change. And then it would be nice to tie this list
> to the realities of Fairfax County.
--------------
When to change borders:
1) When a new school is opened (or of course when an old one closes).
2) When a significantly over-crowded school borders along a significantly under-enrolled school.
There is no number 3.

And unless the new school offers BETTER academics, I would pupil place my children back to the old school.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:19PM

Old Timer Wrote:
> ... TJ kids are
> typically white and wealthy...

---------------
OT, are you aware Jefferson is barely 50% White (935 students out of 1805)?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:24PM

Thomas More Wrote:
> There was little notice to the SL community of the
> change from AP to IB in the 1999-2000 time frame.
> There was no consultation, discussion or
> solcitatiion of input. IB was imposed on SL by the
> Area Superintendent (with Stuy's consent or
> encouragement?).
>
> Simultaneously, SL was changing principals from
> Bill Harper to Railly.
>
> So no there was no consensus. None was sought. ...

Woodson had little notice as well, and also had a new principal. IB was also imposed on Woodson but Woodson rebelled.

SLHS didn't; SLHS accepted IB. If now the SLHS community wants to revert to IB, why not do so NOW, BEFORE forcing in more students?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: HooTribe ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:24PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> When to change borders:
> 1) When a new school is opened (or of course when
> an old one closes).
> 2) When a significantly over-crowded school
> borders along a significantly under-enrolled
> school.
> There is no number 3.
>
> And unless the new school offers BETTER academics,
> I would pupil place my children back to the old
> school.

FR,

Curious to get your take: since SL and Westfield share a border, do you consider that it would apply under #2? Most people would agree that SL is under-enrolled, but it is up to debate as to whether Westfield is over-enrolled. I would say yes, but wanted to get a anti RD viewpoint.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Nope ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:28PM

SLHS does not need to anything. All they want is grab someone outside and think magic will work things out. They need to change? You must be some 'ist'.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:30PM

Baffled Wrote:
> I am curious...did Robinson have the AP program
> before going IB?

ALL FCPS high schools had some AP classes before going IB (except maybe Marshall and Stuart - my records do not go back that far).

Outside of FCPS, there is no "AP Diploma Program." The closest would be the "AP International Diploma (APID)." The requirements are simple: at least a "3" or above on five AP exams:
- Two AP Exams from two different languages selected from English and/OR world languages (so English Lit AND English Language covers it - no foreign language required)
- One AP Exam designated as offering a global perspective: World History, Human Geography, or Government and Politics: Comparative.
- One exam from the sciences OR mathematics content areas
- One (or two) additional exam(s) from among any content areas except English and world languages. They include history and social sciences and arts.
- "To earn an APID, a student attending school within the United States must indicate on at least one AP Exam answer sheet that the results should be sent to a university outside the United States."

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:34PM

HooTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > --------------
> > When to change borders:
> > 1) When a new school is opened (or of course
> when
> > an old one closes).
> > 2) When a significantly over-crowded school
> > borders along a significantly under-enrolled
> > school.
> > There is no number 3.
> >
> > And unless the new school offers BETTER
> academics,
> > I would pupil place my children back to the old
> > school.
>
> FR,
>
> Curious to get your take: since SL and Westfield
> share a border, do you consider that it would
> apply under #2? Most people would agree that SL
> is under-enrolled, but it is up to debate as to
> whether Westfield is over-enrolled. I would say
> yes, but wanted to get a anti RD viewpoint.

Following that logic, the part that joins the 2 boundaries is McNair Farms. Now wouldn't that be the logical part to take if you want to balance enrollment?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: RD is not the answer ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:35PM

HooTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So using this logic, Langley, McLean, and Madison
> families would never have to move because there
> would be no "benefit" to them - they are the
> highest rated schools. In fact, this would mean
> boundary changes could only go in one direction -
> students would only be moved when they would go to
> a school that is perceived as being better.
> Reality is you can't run a large school system
> like this.
>

of course you can - its exactly the way you should manage a large school system

all that using RD to back fill poor performing schools does is to hide problems, remove incentives to improvement and delay your ability to measure the improvements by resetting the baseline

you should never redistrict to lower performing schools - ever

instead, provide additional resources to help poor performing schools - as has happened at SLHS with the 40% higher staff:student ratio - that's why we pay taxes over and above that which we as individuals consume - to provide additional resources where society needs them

but kids are not resources to be moved around for political gain

sucking kids from higher performing schools into lower performing schools in order to make average scores look better is just attempting to hide issues - its dishonest and it doesn't help

its not fair on the kids being sucked and its not fair on the kids who are suffering from the existing problems.

the reason it looks like a 'throw everything against the wall' is that there are SO many problems with the RD that its scandalous

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: HooTribe ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:45PM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HooTribe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > --------------
> > > When to change borders:
> > > 1) When a new school is opened (or of course
> > when
> > > an old one closes).
> > > 2) When a significantly over-crowded school
> > > borders along a significantly under-enrolled
> > > school.
> > > There is no number 3.
> > >
> > > And unless the new school offers BETTER
> > academics,
> > > I would pupil place my children back to the
> old
> > > school.
> >
> > FR,
> >
> > Curious to get your take: since SL and
> Westfield
> > share a border, do you consider that it would
> > apply under #2? Most people would agree that
> SL
> > is under-enrolled, but it is up to debate as to
> > whether Westfield is over-enrolled. I would
> say
> > yes, but wanted to get a anti RD viewpoint.
>
> Following that logic, the part that joins the 2
> boundaries is McNair Farms. Now wouldn't that be
> the logical part to take if you want to balance
> enrollment?


Fine with me - I have no problem with any part of McNair. In addition, part of Floris is on the border too.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Nope ()
Date: February 21, 2008 04:46PM

What was the last time when students were RD'd to a low performing school without opening of a new HS in FCPS?

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