Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement-
>
> While I appreciate your many insightful comments,
> I think you are being a bit dishonest during this
> process. You refuse to acknowledge that there
> have been any missteps or inappropriate acts by
> the parties involved. As far as how "lucky" we
> are that FCPS has included the public in the
> process-that is still debatable. Let me offer a
> comparison from Montgomery County Public Schools-
> which is probably the best comparison to our
> school district given the similar demographics.
>
> From their Bounday Study Process manual:
>
> "The purpose of community involvement in school
> boundary studies is to solicit community input for
> the superintendent to review prior to making a
> boundary change recommendation to The Board of
> Education. Cluster coordinators work with their
> PTA representatives to serve on a boundary
> advisory committee. In addition high school
> student representatives may serve on high school
> boundary studies. School PTAs may also attach
> position papers to the committee report."
>
> I might be mistaken here, but other than South
> Lakes PTA-did any other schools have a say in the
> matter? It seems like Dale's cronies came up with
> the plan and then asked for community input. The
> complete opposite of the thinking in Montgomery
> County. I honestly don't understand the way FCPS
> manages their affairs-it is positively
> dictatorial.

Re Montgomery County -- I love that suggestion, if it works! One change to advocate for from here on out is to create advisory groups like this, and make them count. But not at the expense of a reasonable solution for South Lakes in the here and now. That would be travesty -- when this process was not considered "flawed" when earlier Western County "redistrictings" involved whiter, richer schools.

Re the whole SLHS PTA issue. There was never, ever, ever any collusion or "say" in the options outside the workshop and hearing process. There was a group called the SLHS Boundary Study Group that worked for maybe hundreds of hours collectively looking at all the numbers, data, etc. and came to the conclusion that a "modified" Option 3, which for ease of reference they dubbed "Option 5," was a good solution. They determined that during the boundary meetings, they would propose this when asked what they liked or disliked about each option. So they said, basically, "we support Option 3 with the following changes..." That was the extent of "having a say." That group -- along with groups from McNair and Herndon I might add -- used its FCPS-given perogative to suggest changes DURING the workshops.

That group did its homework, period.

Every other group had exactly the same opportunity and either chose not to make alternative susggestions (in favor of a chorus of "moratoriums"), or overlooked the opportunity.

The discussions that lead the SLHS Boundary Study Group to its conclusions probably mirrored those that FCPS staff were undergoing, which is why the recommended option appears to be the same (it isn't -- details differ) as the one the SLHS group came up with. (Good ideas have intrinsic merits that are obvious to those who care to look.) We could rehash those number here, but it would be too tiring to go through it again.

(BTW, related to "majority rule." If this was what everyone wanted, then Madison Island would have been moved to South Lakes right after the last workshop -- the vast majority of everyone who attended agreed that it was a "positive." Go figure.)

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had advanced the argument about [xxx]
>
> Until, that is, another person posted a chart here
> that showed that, County-wide, the increase [yyy]
>
> Since [zzz] cannot be a rational basis for the
> RD.
>
> ... I'm really at
> a loss to explain why this RD must be done this
> month.
>
> Is the SB overenrolling SL so as to turn Westfield
> into a secondary school next year?

I replaced your precise words with "x y z's" to point out that HERE is a member of our happy little Forum who is open to a change of position because of logic and numbers. Thank you.

I also am "at a loss to explain why this RD must be done this month."

As to "Is the SB overenrolling SL so as to turn Westfield into a secondary school?" I would REALLY like the School Board to answer that precise question. Do they REALLY support the ideal of 2,000 high schools? Implications include (1) removing the modular at Chantilly, (2) turning Westfield and Mt Vernon into secondary schools, (3) leaving South County SECONDARY School as a "1,700 seat high school plus 800 seat middle school" and not letting it become a 2,500 seat high school, and (4) expediting an "Oak Hill" high school to house all the students who would no longer fit at Westfield or Chantilly.

If all this is pending, then the South Lakes RD should be stopped until all the resultant boundary changes can be considered.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every other group had exactly the same opportunity
> and either chose not to make alternative
> susggestions (in favor of a chorus of
> "moratoriums"), or overlooked the opportunity.
>

Actually, I noticed that many people during the town hall meetings did not feel comfortable throwing other neighborhoods/schools under the bus so instead just said that the scenarios had no advantages. South Lakes and Herndon were very vocal about which schools should go and which should stay when they did not really know or care about those neigbhorhoods or schools at all.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, "majority" rule is NOT the definition of
> democracy.

On the contrary, the dictionary actually defines "democracy" as:

"control of an organization or group by the majority of its members"

It comes from the Greek, "demos" meaning the "people" and "cracy" meaning government or ruling.

Thus, the contraction "majority rules."

does anyone know, do SB members get time off from their real jobs courtesy of FC gov't to partake in SB activities? Just a "what if" a member works for another government agency and didn't take chargeable time off to attend a SB function could that member be in some kind of trouble?

lets protest tomorrow at the primary locations against the potential criminal actions of the FAIRFAX COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS.

anotherparent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Every other group had exactly the same
> opportunity
> > and either chose not to make alternative
> > susggestions (in favor of a chorus of
> > "moratoriums"), or overlooked the opportunity.
> >
>
> Actually, I noticed that many people during the
> town hall meetings did not feel comfortable
> throwing other neighborhoods/schools under the bus
> so instead just said that the scenarios had no
> advantages. South Lakes and Herndon were very
> vocal about which schools should go and which
> should stay when they did not really know or care
> about those neigbhorhoods or schools at all.

If you had been at any of those SLHS meetings or at the Herndon meetings, you would never say such a thing. Those parents -- to a person -- care deeply and passionately about all these communities. In fact, many members of those very groups actually belong to those communities. That is why they spent so many, many hours reviewing all the data and information, having discussions and meeting with people.

Those parents worried about a move may want to believe SLHS or Herndon families are uncaring, perhaps because they are unhappy, at least for now, that they have to modify their expectations about which high school their younger children would go to. It may help them feel better thinking that SLHS or Herndon are full of meanies, to justify their opposition. But that is exactly opposite of the truth. In fact, many SLHS community members and supporters are feeling very sad right now at the prospect that so many folks who might be joining them have been made to feel so negative about that school.

Furthermore, this often quoted "throwing neighbors under the bus" is really quite inflammatory. It suggests that "South Lakes" or "Herndon" is that awful, terrible, no good, very bad bus. Doesn't that feed into fear-mongering?

Floris, Fox Mill, and Madison families will be surprised and pleased at the great school they'll be part of, and at the extra time they'll have to enjoy the friends in their neighborhoods who will be sharing the experience.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Again, "majority" rule is NOT the definition of
> > democracy.
>
> On the contrary, the dictionary actually defines
> "democracy" as:
>
> "control of an organization or group by the
> majority of its members"
>
> It comes from the Greek, "demos" meaning the
> "people" and "cracy" meaning government or ruling.
>
>
> Thus, the contraction "majority rules."

I disagree, and so does the US Department of State:

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/whatsdem/whatdm2.htm

If you disagree with the above ideas, then go to the polls tomorrow. Ron Paul is waiting for your vote. ;-)

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you had been at any of those SLHS meetings or
> at the Herndon meetings, you would never say such
> a thing. Those parents -- to a person -- care
> deeply and passionately about all these
> communities.

I was at those meetings and the South Lake and Herndon parents just cared about themselves. Who are they to say that what's best for Madison, Floris, Fox Mill or Navy.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I disagree, and so does the US Department of
> State:
>
> If you disagree with the above ideas, then go to
> the polls tomorrow. Ron Paul is waiting for your
> vote. ;-)

The propagandists at the State Department do not define our language but rather corrupt it for their own nefarious purposes.

Most judges, lawyers and political scientists agree with the dictionary as does Senator Obama (President, Harvard Law Review) for whom I will be voting tomorrow.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anotherparent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Achievement Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Every other group had exactly the same
> > opportunity
> > > and either chose not to make alternative
> > > susggestions (in favor of a chorus of
> > > "moratoriums"), or overlooked the
> opportunity.
> > >
> >
> > Actually, I noticed that many people during the
> > town hall meetings did not feel comfortable
> > throwing other neighborhoods/schools under the
> bus
> > so instead just said that the scenarios had no
> > advantages. South Lakes and Herndon were very
> > vocal about which schools should go and which
> > should stay when they did not really know or
> care
> > about those neigbhorhoods or schools at all.
>
> If you had been at any of those SLHS meetings or
> at the Herndon meetings, you would never say such
> a thing. Those parents -- to a person -- care
> deeply and passionately about all these
> communities. In fact, many members of those very
> groups actually belong to those communities. That
> is why they spent so many, many hours reviewing
> all the data and information, having discussions
> and meeting with people.
>
> Those parents worried about a move may want to
> believe SLHS or Herndon families are uncaring,
> perhaps because they are unhappy, at least for
> now, that they have to modify their expectations
> about which high school their younger children
> would go to. It may help them feel better thinking
> that SLHS or Herndon are full of meanies, to
> justify their opposition. But that is exactly
> opposite of the truth. In fact, many SLHS
> community members and supporters are feeling very
> sad right now at the prospect that so many folks
> who might be joining them have been made to feel
> so negative about that school.
>
> Furthermore, this often quoted "throwing neighbors
> under the bus" is really quite inflammatory. It
> suggests that "South Lakes" or "Herndon" is that
> awful, terrible, no good, very bad bus. Doesn't
> that feed into fear-mongering?
>
> Floris, Fox Mill, and Madison families will be
> surprised and pleased at the great school they'll
> be part of, and at the extra time they'll have to
> enjoy the friends in their neighborhoods who will
> be sharing the experience.

I am sorry but I think I am going to puke...you mentioned that the SLHS boundary study group spent many hours doing their homework and working with the Herndon community...did they ever confer with these Floris/Fox Mill/MI communities before, during and present boundary study for the west county how they feel besides Stu coming out to test the waters with Floris and Fox Mill communities?

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anotherparent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Achievement Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Every other group had exactly the same
> > opportunity
> > > and either chose not to make alternative
> > > susggestions (in favor of a chorus of
> > > "moratoriums"), or overlooked the
> opportunity.
> > >
> >
> > Actually, I noticed that many people during the
> > town hall meetings did not feel comfortable
> > throwing other neighborhoods/schools under the
> bus
> > so instead just said that the scenarios had no
> > advantages. South Lakes and Herndon were very
> > vocal about which schools should go and which
> > should stay when they did not really know or
> care
> > about those neigbhorhoods or schools at all.
>
> If you had been at any of those SLHS meetings or
> at the Herndon meetings, you would never say such
> a thing. Those parents -- to a person -- care
> deeply and passionately about all these
> communities. In fact, many members of those very
> groups actually belong to those communities. That
> is why they spent so many, many hours reviewing
> all the data and information, having discussions
> and meeting with people.
>
> Those parents worried about a move may want to
> believe SLHS or Herndon families are uncaring,
> perhaps because they are unhappy, at least for
> now, that they have to modify their expectations
> about which high school their younger children
> would go to. It may help them feel better thinking
> that SLHS or Herndon are full of meanies, to
> justify their opposition. But that is exactly
> opposite of the truth. In fact, many SLHS
> community members and supporters are feeling very
> sad right now at the prospect that so many folks
> who might be joining them have been made to feel
> so negative about that school.
>
> Furthermore, this often quoted "throwing neighbors
> under the bus" is really quite inflammatory. It
> suggests that "South Lakes" or "Herndon" is that
> awful, terrible, no good, very bad bus. Doesn't
> that feed into fear-mongering?
>
> Floris, Fox Mill, and Madison families will be
> surprised and pleased at the great school they'll
> be part of, and at the extra time they'll have to
> enjoy the friends in their neighborhoods who will
> be sharing the experience.


If this goes through, Floris families and students will be spending MORE time on the road then they currently do. My daughter is at school in 12-15 minutes,dependably, because she goes AGAINST traffic! After the Rt 28, Willard Rd interchange is finished, there will be only ONE major light (Centreville Rd. and McClearan) between here and Westfield. As anyone who lives in this area SHOULD know, it's not the mileage, it's the traffic flow.

Today at the work session a school board member asked what it does for the other schools like Madison, Chantilly, Westfield

the longest period of silence you ave ever heard

Baffled (I do understand why you call yourself that): Yes, members of the SLHS community did go to Floris and Fox Mill, and individuals communicated with Madison Island folks. Bruce Butler visited those communities several times, along with students and parents. Those communities were invited to the school, over and over again. Most chose not to go. Most chose not to listen. That cannot be helped. But it cannot be said that South Lakes outreach wasn't there. Selective amnesia may be at work. (I don't know the extent of Herndon's outreach, though I do know McNair/Aldrin/Armstrong were quite included in its discussions.)

Again, the SLHS boundary study group and the Herndon groups have members who live and love McNair, Floris, and Fox Mill and support the boundary change.

wtf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Today at the work session a school board member
> asked what it does for the other schools like
> Madison, Chantilly, Westfield
>
> the longest period of silence you ave ever heard


Please explain that a little bit further. Did you mean other high schools should have been in the study?

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wtf Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Today at the work session a school board member
> > asked what it does for the other schools like
> > Madison, Chantilly, Westfield
> >
> > the longest period of silence you ave ever
> heard
>
>
> Please explain that a little bit further. Did you
> mean other high schools should have been in the
> study?


A school board member (bradsher I believe) asked what it is like from the perspective of the schools that will be losing these kids to South Lakes. In other words what is in it for them to lose these kids and their communities.

What is in it for them by doing this...

after a long pause they asked again

Achievement Wrote:

> Again, "majority" rule is NOT the definition of
> democracy.

Tiny clarification:
"majority rule" is NOT the definition of *representative* democracy
(which is what we strive for in this country). No "bread and circuses" is the goal.

I'm not disagreeing with your basic point -- it's perfectly valid -- but the folks who want a recall also have a point: if the democracy becomes too unrepresentative, there are checks & balances that should allow correction.

So the big question (well, one of them!) then becomes whether we have too unrepresentative a democracy. And in this case, it's complicated by the question of whether that means Stu vs. his district, Stu vs. all affected districts, or the entire county vs. the entire BofEd. I suspect it can be coherently argued any of those ways (and probably several more, to boot).

However, the bottom line is that the BofEd needs to preserve some semblance of connection with the masses to justify their mandate. The level of dissent and unrest caused by how this study has been perpetrated suggests to this reader that the study needs to be rethought on that basis alone.

Another Lurker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
>
> > Again, "majority" rule is NOT the definition of
> > democracy.
>
> Tiny clarification:
> "majority rule" is NOT the definition of
> *representative* democracy
> (which is what we strive for in this country). No
> "bread and circuses" is the goal.
>
> I'm not disagreeing with your basic point -- it's
> perfectly valid -- but the folks who want a recall
> also have a point: if the democracy becomes too
> unrepresentative, there are checks & balances that
> should allow correction.
>
> So the big question (well, one of them!) then
> becomes whether we have too unrepresentative a
> democracy. And in this case, it's complicated by
> the question of whether that means Stu vs. his
> district, Stu vs. all affected districts, or the
> entire county vs. the entire BofEd. I suspect it
> can be coherently argued any of those ways (and
> probably several more, to boot).
>
> However, the bottom line is that the BofEd needs
> to preserve some semblance of connection with the
> masses to justify their mandate. The level of
> dissent and unrest caused by how this study has
> been perpetrated suggests to this reader that the
> study needs to be rethought on that basis alone.

No one has ever answered the following question:

Why is it that this boundary process is all of a sudden "flawed" with THIS boundary change, when there was no objection at all to the very same official process when it involved moving kids from Franklin Middle and Chantilly High to Carson Middle and Westfield High? Why now, when it is South Lakes involved?

And why did parents agree so quickly to be moved from Hayfield to South County, when it opened, under the very same rules?

And why didn't Aldrin and Armstrong parents voice overwhelming discontent with the process when they were districted to Herndon instead of South Lakes (the original plan for Aldrin)?

Curiouser and curiouser....

Will GT center move offer her so MANY shirts to her sons? Plus, GT center does impact families.

East Floris is developed, done since 2001. Not exactly "new development" as you said.

"Re the lady with the T-shirts: The only explanation for all those shirts is that she has GT kids. I wouldn't consider that a hardship. I also have to wonder if she objected to moving into brand-new schools. The fact is that this part of the county was growing, as several noted above, and anybody moving here would have to know that."

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled (I do understand why you call yourself
> that): Yes, members of the SLHS community did go
> to Floris and Fox Mill, and individuals
> communicated with Madison Island folks. Bruce
> Butler visited those communities several times,
> along with students and parents. Those communities
> were invited to the school, over and over again.
> Most chose not to go. Most chose not to listen.
> That cannot be helped. But it cannot be said that
> South Lakes outreach wasn't there.

On what dates did this happen? Driving through the neighborhoods doesn't count.

And even if they did attend some meetings, does that count as achieving community buy-in?

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Baffled (I do understand why you call yourself
> > that): Yes, members of the SLHS community did
> go
> > to Floris and Fox Mill, and individuals
> > communicated with Madison Island folks. Bruce
> > Butler visited those communities several times,
> > along with students and parents. Those
> communities
> > were invited to the school, over and over
> again.
> > Most chose not to go. Most chose not to listen.
> > That cannot be helped. But it cannot be said
> that
> > South Lakes outreach wasn't there.
>
> On what dates did this happen? Driving through
> the neighborhoods doesn't count.
>
> And even if they did attend some meetings, does
> that count as achieving community buy-in?

"Buy-in" would have been nice, but impossible. People had their minds made up months ago, as was quite clear from the meetings -- yes, meetings -- that were held or attended. All that could be hoped for with most people there was to present another set of facts and welcome open minds and visits.

Further, quite frankly, it was not up to Herndon or South Lakes communities to "achieve community buy-in." As you can imagine, those two schools have fought against false and pre-conceived notions about their schools for decades. They keep plugging away with truths and appeals, but ultimately it is up to the rest of the world to listen with fair and open minds and hearts and do the "buying in." Sometimes this requires a bit of help, as laws resulting from the Civil Rights movement provided.

The bottom line is this: Many families in Floris, Fox Mill, and Madison have lived with the idea of a future school, and now that idea may have to change. Just as when one faces changes when kids mature in surprising ways and job opportunities arise: often requiring contemplating disruption to the routines we try to hold onto in a complex, swirling world. What is going on here, IMHO, is folks are resisting change in expectations and disruptions (albeit short-term) in routines. Perhaps nothing more nefarious than that.

So is everyone aware of the new Stu and Kathy proposals eliminating Navy and half of Fox Mill as well as increasing the Floris numbers?

By the way, who said that Bruce Butler has visited with communities involved in this study? Are you deep into your happy hour? That would not be appropriate and it did not occur in the areas mentioned above. Check yourself.

okay the new S&K proposals force another pubic hearing on 2/19 and a work session on 2/21.

There will be 4-5 domino reactions. Some McNair to Herndon, some Floris to Oakton and some Floris to South Lakes, half of Fox Mills previous area to South Lakes and no Navy. Either way it appears that Floris is really getting hammered. The SLs are not happy they dont want so much Floris they really want Fox Mill. Madison stays the same Stu wants those 14 eighth graders.

It looked like S&K dropped a bomb on most it seemed to shock most. Jane, Tessie, Dan seemed to know, what does that say??

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So is everyone aware of the new Stu and Kathy
> proposals eliminating Navy and half of Fox Mill as
> well as increasing the Floris numbers?
>
Where is this information available?

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> okay the new S&K proposals force another pubic
> hearing on 2/19 and a work session on 2/21.
>
> There will be 4-5 domino reactions. Some McNair
> to Herndon, some Floris to Oakton and some Floris
> to South Lakes, half of Fox Mills previous area to
> South Lakes and no Navy. Either way it appears
> that Floris is really getting hammered. The SLs
> are not happy they dont want so much Floris they
> really want Fox Mill. Madison stays the same Stu
> wants those 14 eighth graders.
>
> It looked like S&K dropped a bomb on most it
> seemed to shock most. Jane, Tessie, Dan seemed to
> know, what does that say??

Not surprising. Stu, Kathy, Tessie and janie swore an allegiance to the empire under Strategic Governance and their reward is the inside information and access.

Dan is the chair and it is courtesy to notify the chair

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled (I do understand why you call yourself
> that): Yes, members of the SLHS community did go
> to Floris and Fox Mill, and individuals
> communicated with Madison Island folks. Bruce
> Butler visited those communities several times,
> along with students and parents. Those communities
> were invited to the school, over and over again.
> Most chose not to go. Most chose not to listen.
> That cannot be helped. But it cannot be said that
> South Lakes outreach wasn't there. Selective
> amnesia may be at work. (I don't know the extent
> of Herndon's outreach, though I do know
> McNair/Aldrin/Armstrong were quite included in its
> discussions.)
>
> Again, the SLHS boundary study group and the
> Herndon groups have members who live and love
> McNair, Floris, and Fox Mill and support the
> boundary change.

You should be shame on yourself by posting all those BS. If SLHS is so great, why they need to force people into it? Why a lot Reston parents choose to send their kids to private school instead of SLHS. If SLHS is that great, why does the pricipal need to act as a car salesman to promote SLHS. Have you heard of Oakton HS's pricipal going around the county to promote Oakton HS?

The beauty of representative democracy is the natural tension between majority rule and protection of minority rights. Tyranny of either the majority or the minority is anti-democratic. This is the same tension we see between the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The government has been vested with authority to manage affairs of state but it has NOT been granted authority OVER the people--any doubt of that was addressed by the Bill of Rights, the document which is the true life blood of American democracy since it is the instrument through which we amend the oversights and anacronysms of our brilliant but long dead forefathers. Today, we are debating the power of the school board and whether elections alone are the best instrument to guarantee that the people of our area have their power and their rights protected. I would argue that it is our own inability to bring people together for a true conversation that impedes both majority rule and minority rights, both of which are guaranteed under our system of government. The school board does not have authority over the people--unless we abdicate our authority. Those who hold a minority opinion or less economic power are not entitled to greater power by virtue of their comprised position and neither are they subject to majority whim. Majority rule and minority rights can and should co-exist if we truly want to embrace democracy not just on election day, but every day. I side with the father of the University of Virginia who said, "I have sworn eternal hostility toward every tyranny over the mind of man." To "Achievement" and others who are sounding rational arguments for redistricting and to the many throughout West County who have eloquently argued for retaining today's pyramids: you may both be right. The only way to find out would be to stop pretending this process has been representative or fair to anyone, to put aside our demands and timelines and to sit down and hammer out a solution together, with or without our elected and appointed officials.

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> okay the new S&K proposals force another pubic
> hearing on 2/19 and a work session on 2/21.
>
> There will be 4-5 domino reactions. Some McNair
> to Herndon, some Floris to Oakton and some Floris
> to South Lakes, half of Fox Mills previous area to
> South Lakes and no Navy. Either way it appears
> that Floris is really getting hammered. The SLs
> are not happy they dont want so much Floris they
> really want Fox Mill. Madison stays the same Stu
> wants those 14 eighth graders.
>
> It looked like S&K dropped a bomb on most it
> seemed to shock most. Jane, Tessie, Dan seemed to
> know, what does that say??

Holy crap....

TyrannusMinimus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The beauty of representative democracy is the
> natural tension between majority rule and
> protection of minority rights. Tyranny of either
> the majority or the minority is anti-democratic.
> This is the same tension we see between the
> Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The
> government has been vested with authority to
> manage affairs of state but it has NOT been
> granted authority OVER the people--any doubt of
> that was addressed by the Bill of Rights, the
> document which is the true life blood of American
> democracy since it is the instrument through which
> we amend the oversights and anacronysms of our
> brilliant but long dead forefathers. Today, we
> are debating the power of the school board and
> whether elections alone are the best instrument to
> guarantee that the people of our area have their
> power and their rights protected. I would argue
> that it is our own inability to bring people
> together for a true conversation that impedes both
> majority rule and minority rights, both of which
> are guaranteed under our system of government. The
> school board does not have authority over the
> people--unless we abdicate our authority. Those
> who hold a minority opinion or less economic power
> are not entitled to greater power by virtue of
> their comprised position and neither are they
> subject to majority whim. Majority rule and
> minority rights can and should co-exist if we
> truly want to embrace democracy not just on
> election day, but every day. I side with the
> father of the University of Virginia who said, "I
> have sworn eternal hostility toward every tyranny
> over the mind of man." To "Achievement" and
> others who are sounding rational arguments for
> redistricting and to the many throughout West
> County who have eloquently argued for retaining
> today's pyramids: you may both be right. The only
> way to find out would be to stop pretending this
> process has been representative or fair to anyone,
> to put aside our demands and timelines and to sit
> down and hammer out a solution together, with or
> without our elected and appointed officials.


Well said. Now, can we talk about ways to improve SL that do not involve coercion?

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one has ever answered the following question:

I'll take a stab at a couple.

> Why is it that this boundary process is all of a
> sudden "flawed" with THIS boundary change, when
> there was no objection at all to the very same
> official process when it involved moving kids from
> Franklin Middle and Chantilly High to Carson
> Middle and Westfield High?

1. Carson MS and Westfield HS started with a clean slate, where folks could easily imagine having control over their destinies.

2. There probably was no argument over an IB vs. AP curriculum choice.

> Why now, when it is South Lakes involved?

1. The word on the street nowadays, albeit mistakenly, is that South Lakes HS is a rough place. It's not; and I will be happy to vouch for the school.

2. The IB program is a valid problem for many people. Personally, I don't see it being a problem, but I will not invalidate another's concern, either.


>
> And why did parents agree so quickly to be moved
> from Hayfield to South County, when it opened,
> under the very same rules?

Haven't studied that one, so cannot answer.

> And why didn't Aldrin and Armstrong parents voice
> overwhelming discontent with the process when they
> were districted to Herndon instead of South Lakes
> (the original plan for Aldrin)?

Haven't studied that one, so cannot answer that one either.
>
> Curiouser and curiouser....

Well, I tackled fifty percent of them. Someone else please indulge the fair Mr. Achievement with the last two.

Thank you.

Sorry stepped away.

The info will not be posted until tomorrow. There are two scenarios, both reduce Fox Mill to half and increase Floris all put some of McNair in Herndon.

A lot of angry faces in the room. Again a lot of surprised board members. It would appear that Stu and Kathy may really be pushing the envelope on this one. I called this and the positive effect for Fox Mill although I didnt anticipate a split for Fox Mill. I think that was to appease the SLPTSA that really doesnt want Floris so much or at least it appeared that way.

So tomorrow you all will see the new maps. They dont mean that the old maps are no longer an option, like the name a poster has here, Its just another Brick in the Wall.

Achievement Wrote:
>
> Floris, Fox Mill, and Madison families will be
> surprised and pleased at the great school they'll
> be part of, and at the extra time they'll have to
> enjoy the friends in their neighborhoods who will
> be sharing the experience.


no, no, no, you are a fool to think these families will show up.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No one has ever answered the following
> question:
>
> I'll take a stab at a couple.
>
> > Why is it that this boundary process is all of
> a
> > sudden "flawed" with THIS boundary change, when
> > there was no objection at all to the very same
> > official process when it involved moving kids
> from
> > Franklin Middle and Chantilly High to Carson
> > Middle and Westfield High?
>
> 1. Carson MS and Westfield HS started with a clean
> slate, where folks could easily imagine having
> control over their destinies.
>
> 2. There probably was no argument over an IB vs.
> AP curriculum choice.
>
> > Why now, when it is South Lakes involved?
>
> 1. The word on the street nowadays, albeit
> mistakenly, is that South Lakes HS is a rough
> place. It's not; and I will be happy to vouch for
> the school.
>
> 2. The IB program is a valid problem for many
> people. Personally, I don't see it being a
> problem, but I will not invalidate another's
> concern, either.
>
>
> >
> > And why did parents agree so quickly to be
> moved
> > from Hayfield to South County, when it opened,
> > under the very same rules?
>
> Haven't studied that one, so cannot answer.
>
> > And why didn't Aldrin and Armstrong parents
> voice
> > overwhelming discontent with the process when
> they
> > were districted to Herndon instead of South
> Lakes
> > (the original plan for Aldrin)?
>
> Haven't studied that one, so cannot answer that
> one either.
> >
> > Curiouser and curiouser....
>
> Well, I tackled fifty percent of them. Someone
> else please indulge the fair Mr. Achievement with
> the last two.
>
> Thank you.

Mr A-
People moved from Hayfield to South County because they thought the process was valid and the projections were accurate and there wouldn't be overcrowding at South County in spite of the community having accurate numbers.

Nobody except Forum Reader believes FCPS projections anymore

Have no idea about putting the astronauts in the lake

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So is everyone aware of the new Stu and Kathy
> proposals eliminating Navy and half of Fox Mill as
> well as increasing the Floris numbers?

Sparing Navy would eliminate one contradiction to the SB criteria (decreasing travel time), but splitting Fox Mill will create a new contradiction for a different criterium (eliminating split feeders).

The current scope of this project is forcing the SB into contradictions that just cannot be rationalized, even if they were to somehow justify prioritizing their criteria. Which criterium is most important? Which can withstand contradiction? Does even one contradiction bring down the house? Unfortunately, where one contradiction is eliminated, another is born.

Achievement Wrote:
> ... They have the very same schedule
> flexibility and course offering problems South
> Lakes does. The school board knows this. The
> situation here is that there is a well-defined and
> geographically described boundary change that
> could address the issues with the schools involved
> now, with very little disruption (especially
> compared with what has happened in other RDs in
> other pyramids.)
>
> ... The focus has been on this pyramid in this
> boundary study. One cannot conjure up comparisons
> with other schools -- and their unique
> demographics and pyramid "flavors" -- and try to
> compare those apples with this orange. ...

1. Other redistrictings have had a clearly defined purpose, generally to open a new school. The "reason" for this one keeps changing.

2. If the reason is course selection, if SLHS wants the same curriculum as is found in AP schools, then get rid of IB.

3. If we are all one community, why aren't RD supporters pushing to RD the entire County to achieve that 1,700 minimum? Why do supporters of this redistricting proposal ignore the situations at other schools, yet expect the rest of us to disrupt our lives to add some possible, not clearly defined benefit to theirs?

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So is everyone aware of the new Stu and Kathy
> > proposals eliminating Navy and half of Fox Mill
> as
> > well as increasing the Floris numbers?
>
> Sparing Navy would eliminate one contradiction to
> the SB criteria (decreasing travel time), but
> splitting Fox Mill will create a new contradiction
> for a different criterium (eliminating split
> feeders).
>
> The current scope of this project is forcing the
> SB into contradictions that just cannot be
> rationalized, even if they were to somehow justify
> prioritizing their criteria. Which criterium is
> most important? Which can withstand contradiction?
> Does even one contradiction bring down the house?
> Unfortunately, where one contradiction is
> eliminated, another is born.


That is why I said "Holy crap".

The only way to rationally backfill Oakton HS if Fox Mill were to go to South Lakes, is to increase the scope and move West Flint Hill ES island from Madison to Oakton. That would comply with the current criteria. Can anyone say "1984"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2008 09:16PM by Berdhuis.

Why are they splitting Floris AND Fox Mill???? If we go (from Fox Mill), we want ALL of Fox Mill to go! My young kids -- all they want is to stay with elementary friends. We are really a defined home association that goes to the same pool and everything.

I didn't worry about going to South Lakes, but now it seems unfair to split us.

Why can't South Lakes take ALL of Floris, too, if it comes to that? What's wrong with a couple of trailers at South Lakes, if trailers are ok at Westfield?

I think the lights are on for many of the SBMs. Today Kathy and Stu jumped the shark.

What a crazy day. Goodman stated all pupil placement requests for AP would be honored even back to their home schools, Hone said what if every single student pupil places, Goodman says well then we are where we are now.

Well doesnt that beg the question? What is the point of this?

Someone already spoke about the 2 minutes of silence on the question bradsher asked on what benefit do the students placing in to SLHS get? Goodman says the facility and diversity are really great benefits after the 2 minute pause where you could have heard a pin drop.

Someone maybe Hone asked for cost benefit info and at very least thought this should be a budget item. Tessie Wilson (the Accountant SBM) said that there was no time for that and it was unnecessary information.

Surreal. Anytime anyone said anything that made sense some one countered it with jibberish. It was really bizarre to watch.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only way to rationally backfill Oakton HS if
> Fox Mill were to go to South Lakes, is to increase
> the scope and move West Flint Hill ES island from
> Madison to Oakton. That would comply with the
> current criteria. Can anyone say "1984"?


Therefore in this case Madison would be back in the scope of the study, but what about Langley?

And if indeed Navy is spared, then what happens to the argument and criterium that Chantilly HS is overcrowded and must be reduced? It falls completely apart, of course.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > So is everyone aware of the new Stu and Kathy
> > > proposals eliminating Navy and half of Fox
> Mill
> > as
> > > well as increasing the Floris numbers?
> >
> > Sparing Navy would eliminate one contradiction
> to
> > the SB criteria (decreasing travel time), but
> > splitting Fox Mill will create a new
> contradiction
> > for a different criterium (eliminating split
> > feeders).
> >
> > The current scope of this project is forcing
> the
> > SB into contradictions that just cannot be
> > rationalized, even if they were to somehow
> justify
> > prioritizing their criteria. Which criterium is
> > most important? Which can withstand
> contradiction?
> > Does even one contradiction bring down the
> house?
> > Unfortunately, where one contradiction is
> > eliminated, another is born.
>
>
> That is why I said "Holy crap".



Its hard to keep up with Britney Spears, but I have to say our bi-polar school baord does a fine job of surpassing her. it is probably time to call in the helicopters and police escorts.

FoxMillUnited Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are they splitting Floris AND Fox Mill???? If
> we go (from Fox Mill), we want ALL of Fox Mill to
> go! My young kids -- all they want is to stay with
> elementary friends. We are really a defined home
> association that goes to the same pool and
> everything.
>
> I didn't worry about going to South Lakes, but now
> it seems unfair to split us.
>
> Why can't South Lakes take ALL of Floris, too, if
> it comes to that? What's wrong with a couple of
> trailers at South Lakes, if trailers are ok at
> Westfield?


Not so fast..there are a number of Fox Mill parents who are really livid about this RD. Not all of the Fox Mill community is up for being UNITED to go to South Lakes.

"Floris, Fox Mill, and Madison families will be surprised and pleased at the great school they'll be part of, and at the extra time they'll have to enjoy the friends in their neighborhoods who will be sharing the experience."

Many of us are ALREADY pleased with the great schools we are part of. We have no wish to leave them.

Acheivement, is your name Caroline, Elizabeth or Maria?

Your pro RD stance sounds very familiar.

As far as your questions on...No one has ever answered the following question:

"Why is it that this boundary process is all of a sudden "flawed" with THIS boundary change, when there was no objection at all to the very same official process when it involved moving kids from Franklin Middle and Chantilly High to Carson Middle and Westfield High? Why now, when it is South Lakes involved?"

And why did parents agree so quickly to be moved from Hayfield to South County, when it opened, under the very same rules?

And why didn't Aldrin and Armstrong parents voice overwhelming discontent with the process when they were districted to Herndon instead of South Lakes (the original plan for Aldrin)?

Curiouser and curiouser....

We do not live in the South County area, so we cannot speak to why the parents in that area chose to go to South County.

I cannot speak for the Chantilly families that were sent to Westfield, since Floris was attending Oakton HS.

I believe that the move to Rachel Carson was perceived as OK, because it was closer to Floris, and was a brand new school. It was also clear that with Franklin being the only MS in the area serving Oakton, Chantilly and the future Westfield HS, it was not large enough to accomodate all of the students in the area. The Floris community was not in the Chantilly HS district, but in the Oakton HS district. There was much bebate on the Floris area being pulled out of Oakton, and sent to Westfield, and many families chose to relocate to other communities in order to stay at Oakton.

As far as Aldrin and Armstrong, I was not aware that they were ever in the South Pyramid.

ParentOf4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree, the School Board has WAY too much
> freedom, but apparently we all voted in 1995 to
> make the School Board an "elected entity with sole
> legal jurisdiction over
> issues pertaining to public schools, including
> boundaries" - as quoted from Mr. Connelly. I
> already wrote to him to complain about the School
> Board. The key is to either vote these guys out
> next time, or petition to have the rules changed
> regarding the School Board's freedoms. There are
> no checks and balances right now.

I voted against an elected school board. I knew it would be a terrible idea.

In 4 years, all of this will have been forgotten, and the 70% of the county that will be democrats will re-elect all these same democrats, again.

The check on them is that they have to run for re-election, but, unfortunately, 90% of people know nothing about the school board, and care nothing about it. They simply vote for whoever is endorsed by the democrat party. Very similar to how people vote on soil and water conservation. It's a shame since the school board controls SO MUCH, our education, and the BOS raises taxes based on the demands of the school system. How can so few people care about their children's schools and their taxes? School board effects MUCH more in our daily lives than our Senator or Congressman, or even President, yet voters know much more about those offices and pay no attention to who they are electing to run the schools.

splitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its hard to keep up with Britney Spears, but I
> have to say our bi-polar school baord does a fine
> job of surpassing her. it is probably time to
> call in the helicopters and police escorts.

We should keep helping the SB by brainstorming constructive ideas. I prefer long-range plans that aren't put together in a panic - like the Dulles HS idea. If such a plan goes through, then it would involve pulling Oak Hill, Floris, McNair, Coppermine and Fox Mill ES districts together. That would go a long way towards the School Board's goal of achieving high schools with 2000 +/- students.

Granted, South Lakes is feeling pain right now, but if we look at what is best for all of Fairfax County - not just one school, then planning for this additional high school would make a lot of sense. All would be prepared for an imminent redistricting, and would obviate the need for this current, incompletely scoped and temporary plan.

I wish I could provide a greater level of detail on the new scenarios, which are not written in stone, they are proposals presented by Stu and Kathy.

they were very confusing with all of the manipulations. New public testimony night on 2/19 and new SB work session on 2/21 will shed more light in addition the maps will be posted tomorrow.

The Floris folks called this earlier when they said Kathy had started a campaign to get them out.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Acheivement, is your name Caroline, Elizabeth or
> Maria?
>

They're SL, right? I'm Herndon.

Does anyone know what happened with "moving McNair to Herndon" today? Anything happen on that?

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FoxMillUnited Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why are they splitting Floris AND Fox Mill????
> If
> > we go (from Fox Mill), we want ALL of Fox Mill
> to
> > go! My young kids -- all they want is to stay
> with
> > elementary friends. We are really a defined
> home
> > association that goes to the same pool and
> > everything.
> >
> > I didn't worry about going to South Lakes, but
> now
> > it seems unfair to split us.
> >
> > Why can't South Lakes take ALL of Floris, too,
> if
> > it comes to that? What's wrong with a couple of
> > trailers at South Lakes, if trailers are ok at
> > Westfield?
>
>
> Not so fast..there are a number of Fox Mill
> parents who are really livid about this RD. Not
> all of the Fox Mill community is up for being
> UNITED to go to South Lakes.

Yes, that is absolutely right. A few Fox Mill parents might want South Lakes, but the overwhelming majority DO NOT.

Don't forget the fact that those kids from impacted communities would be forced to move from top tier high school in the nation to a bottom tier high school. Those south lakes parents keep boasting how good SLHS is, but can’t show the public the fact. Those parents said the score is not important are apparently fooling themselves.

So far there is no compelling reason to the public that SLHS is academically on par with other high schools in the region. That is a fact. They may have some good facilities, but wake up, folks, we need an education system which can make the kids well prepared for the college, and help them finish the college degree in the future, not just help them well prepared to find a job in the local convenient store after high school. It is a fact. If we don’t do that, many more people will cry out later that all jobs go to China or India. Education is the highest priority to most of parents in those impacted communities. That is a fact too. That is the reason why parents aren’t willing to send their kids to SLHS, even including Reston parents. Look at the facts, don’t be fooled by the fool.

It was quite a surprise that many people have seen the ugly part of this process and this county. Sadly the RD is creating animosity among the communities, which will take years and years to overcome. It is a loss to everyone in Fairfax. The communities lost their trust to each other, everyone lost trust to SB.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know what happened with "moving McNair
> to Herndon" today? Anything happen on that?

Achievement,

Herndon HS already accepts 111 high school students from the McNair ES zone, which is 24% of its enrollment. These are the ones who live north of the Toll Road. But I have no idea of the SB moving anymore students from McNair to Herndon HS.

McNair moves to Herndon in both Stu and Kathy's scenarios if I remember correctly. There were two Herndon PTAs there, Jane looked over for their approval and received it.

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wish I could provide a greater level of detail
> on the new scenarios, which are not written in
> stone, they are proposals presented by Stu and
> Kathy.
>
> they were very confusing with all of the
> manipulations. New public testimony night on 2/19
> and new SB work session on 2/21 will shed more
> light in addition the maps will be posted
> tomorrow.
>
> The Floris folks called this earlier when they
> said Kathy had started a campaign to get them out.


Quoting a previous poster's post, sounds like Kathy and Stu were scratching each other's backs and discussing these scenarios in private before surprising the rest of the SB?

I have young children and I never heard bad things about South Lakes. I'm ok with going there. My friends too. Maybe others are not. Ok. But why are they thinking to split Fox Mill? Why not keep us together? Wouldn't that be better? Where are they splitting us? Do they know that our roads cross over fairfax county pkwy so we are still one place?

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wish I could provide a greater level of detail
> on the new scenarios, which are not written in
> stone, they are proposals presented by Stu and
> Kathy.
>
> they were very confusing with all of the
> manipulations. New public testimony night on 2/19
> and new SB work session on 2/21 will shed more
> light in addition the maps will be posted
> tomorrow.
>
> The Floris folks called this earlier when they
> said Kathy had started a campaign to get them out.
This is what I recall

11b (smith)
McNair to Herndon
madison Island to South Lakes
Don't move Navy to Oakton
Move Floris to South Lakes with exception of small community with access to Centreville road
Part of Oak Hill to South Lakes (?)
Fox Mill (?)

12 (Gibson)
McNair to herndon
Madison Island to South Lakes
Don't move navy to Oakton
1/2 of Floris to Oakton, 1/2 to South Lakes
Oak Hill(?)
Fox Mill(?)

Hey wait, I got first post on page 200 - I win! SLVerity, eat your heart out
;^D

Yes baffled it was obvious that they had done a lot of work on their new proposals. they had staff do the maps and have had them all weekend. Someone asked them if they had gotten them before Saturday.

Jane seemed well aware of the new proposals, as she stated that she had made Herndon people awared for a while that they would probably take on more McNair kids. Sorry to put it that way it makes them sound unwanted which apparently...?

Anyhow to the others it really seemed shocking. A couple left the room it was really academy award winning drama. It seemed they were going for shock value. It really did and they got it. No one was happy with it. Afterall no one wants more public hearings.

>>>I'd caution folks to realize that much of America has absolutely no input into these matters. Boundary changes happen everywhere, including Loudoun County, 100% at the discretion of school staffs and school boards. Perhaps the problem here is that FCPS takes public input. Perhaps it shouldn't.<<<<

Hahahahaha........don't you get it? The people of this county know that their 'public input' is a sham. They wasted their time going to the meetings only to be told that what they wanted could not, and would not, be done. They were used. It didn't work. The public wasn't stupid enough to believe that they ever had any input into the results of the boundary change. They are furious that the school system thought they were stupid. It's insulting. Wasting their time, being used by FCPS, angers people even more than simply doing it as Loudoun county does, and the end result is the same.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Acheivement, is your name Caroline, Elizabeth
> or
> > Maria?
> >
>
> They're SL, right? I'm Herndon.
>
> Does anyone know what happened with "moving McNair
> to Herndon" today? Anything happen on that?


Yes, Herndon gets them all.

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair moves to Herndon in both Stu and Kathy's
> scenarios if I remember correctly. There were two
> Herndon PTAs there, Jane looked over for their
> approval and received it.


Gosh, I kept waiting for Stu to look over at the Floris crowd's way for approval, but he never did. rats

Part of Oak Hill to SL? Weird. Why not that part of Crossfield on the east side of West Ox Road instead. Closer and already a split feeder. And what do either of these mean for Oakton? It will be interesting to see what the scenarios do to the demographic mix. I don't think the rest of McNair to Herndon will change the percentages that much, but I hope Herndon HS gets the extra support it will need to help the kids who might need it. And I wonder if this means the "rest" of McNair might be slated for the new Coppermine.

Not Jack Dale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I wish I could provide a greater level of
> detail
> > on the new scenarios, which are not written in
> > stone, they are proposals presented by Stu and
> > Kathy.
> >
> > they were very confusing with all of the
> > manipulations. New public testimony night on
> 2/19
> > and new SB work session on 2/21 will shed more
> > light in addition the maps will be posted
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > The Floris folks called this earlier when they
> > said Kathy had started a campaign to get them
> out.
> This is what I recall
>
> 11b (smith)
> McNair to Herndon
> madison Island to South Lakes
> Don't move Navy to Oakton
> Move Floris to South Lakes with exception of small
> community with access to Centreville road
> Part of Oak Hill to South Lakes (?)
> Fox Mill (?)
>
> 12 (Gibson)
> McNair to herndon
> Madison Island to South Lakes
> Don't move navy to Oakton
> 1/2 of Floris to Oakton, 1/2 to South Lakes
> Oak Hill(?)
> Fox Mill(?)

FoxMillUnited Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have young children and I never heard bad things
> about South Lakes. I'm ok with going there. My
> friends too. Maybe others are not. Ok. But why are
> they thinking to split Fox Mill? Why not keep us
> together? Wouldn't that be better? Where are they
> splitting us? Do they know that our roads cross
> over fairfax county pkwy so we are still one
> place?

Hey, welcome to our world. or was it previously ok for you, that Floris had been imploded into a thousand pieces?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hahahahaha........don't you get it? The people of
> this county know that their 'public input' is a
> sham. They wasted their time going to the
> meetings only to be told that what they wanted
> could not, and would not, be done.

Neen,
I must say that you are being too cynical here. I'm sure many participated, knowing that the School Board is not bound hand and foot to follow our wishes. And they are indeed not. Nevertheless, we feel that our input has some merit with the School Board, but perhaps not in an expected way. We don't know everything that goes on in their minds, and cannot possibly predict everything they will come up with.

Part of being a team player is accepting change, and I see some of us achieving it. It is unwise to foul this effort with incessant scorn.

I dont remember seeing Oakhill in any of the scenarios, but I just cant stand to hear Stu Gibson's voice so I probably tuned out. It is finger nails on the black board.

All will be public tomorrow.

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dont remember seeing Oakhill in any of the
> scenarios, but I just cant stand to hear Stu
> Gibson's voice so I probably tuned out. It is
> finger nails on the black board.
>
> All will be public tomorrow.


Through the FCPS website right?

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> xNnAchievement Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Page 33 and 35:
> >
> >
> http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/
>
> > content_storage_01/0000019b/80/1b/cf/f6.pdf
> >
> > McNair: Do you really want Title I kids to go to
> a
> > school that already has 33% poor kids rather
> than
> > Westfield that has 12%? Ask: Who, exactly, is
> hurt
> > when there are more poor kids at a school?
>
> Why does everyone keep saying that McNair is full
> of poor kids? Have you actually been in the
> McNairs farms community? It is full of beautiful
> town homes and condo's that are generally 10 years
> old or newer.
>
> Also, I believe that the latest and greatest data
> on the FRM students is no longer 33%. On the South
> Lakes PTSA Web Site, it is now down to only 28%.
>
> http://www.southlakesptsa.org/boundaries/SLHSGlanc
> e.pdf
>
> This number is going to drop even lower, as more
> of the families in Reston decide to place their
> children into South Lakes, now that they have
> heard so many great things about the school and
> the new administration etc.
>
> As you can see, there are already 47 students who
> have placed into SL already this year. (39 are
> Special Ed though) and so far only 206 have placed
> out, including 53 who attend TJ.
>
> See attachment for 2006-2007, and 2007-2008 in out
> figues for all schools in this Bounday study.
>
> I am not sure what Administrative placement means,
> but South Lakes does seem to have more of
> these,especially considering the smaller
> enrollment numbers. Does anyone know what may be a
> reason for an Administrative placement out of a
> school?

I assume those are students who have been expelled and sent to another school.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I wish I could provide a greater level of
> detail
> > on the new scenarios, which are not written in
> > stone, they are proposals presented by Stu and
> > Kathy.
> >
> > they were very confusing with all of the
> > manipulations. New public testimony night on
> 2/19
> > and new SB work session on 2/21 will shed more
> > light in addition the maps will be posted
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > The Floris folks called this earlier when they
> > said Kathy had started a campaign to get them
> out.
>
>
> Quoting a previous poster's post, sounds like
> Kathy and Stu were scratching each other's backs
> and discussing these scenarios in private before
> surprising the rest of the SB?

Wouldn't we assume that since it is only their schools, in their districts, that are involved?

FlorisLook Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FoxMillUnited Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have young children and I never heard bad
> things
> > about South Lakes. I'm ok with going there. My
> > friends too. Maybe others are not. Ok. But why
> are
> > they thinking to split Fox Mill? Why not keep
> us
> > together? Wouldn't that be better? Where are
> they
> > splitting us? Do they know that our roads cross
> > over fairfax county pkwy so we are still one
> > place?
>
> Hey, welcome to our world. or was it previously
> ok for you, that Floris had been imploded into a
> thousand pieces?

With Floris people, I could not tell what was because of other redistrictings and what was because they didn't like South Lakes. My friend in Floris (also with little children) told me that he did not go through any other changes so I didn't understand how this would be another one. I'm sorry not to seem sensitive to Floris. Maybe all of Floris could go to South Lakes?

Achievement - you are entitled to your opinions but to declare that democracy in this country does not reflect a rule of majority is wholly inaccurate and in any event non-probative of the argument you are attempting to make. The political process in this country - including those elected to the schools - is dominated by the principle of majority rule. Indeed, that is how people get elected, and once elected, legislative bodies operate almost entirely on majoritarian lines.

What I think you are attempting to say - although it is difficult to discern through your rather liberal, outcome determinative thought process - is that the courts and certain other institutions (i.e., the EEOC and the like) should serve, through the auspices of judicial review and through the exercise of their inherent focus on individual rights, the rights of minorities. There is, subject to how one draws the lines with any one issue, some veracity to that notion. But there is little to the notion that in a democracy that the majority should not rule.

I think the argument you are trying to make is that it is in our interest to look out for minority interests because if we do not we will bear the negative externalities from our failure to do so. Fine, a decent moral and policy argument - albeit one that has decayed with billions of dollars of Title 1 and Head Start type programs and precious little to show for them. But that is a moral and policy argument, and not one that should invite false notions of political science.

Another falsity is your pointing to Orfield's study as the "truth". Would it be that we could merely rely on upon socio-economic levels to ensure diversity - we clearly cannot - at least if we wish to define diversity as the racial identity apparatchiks would like us to (and they exist on all ends of the political spectrum). When it comes to academic achievement, race unfortunately matters. Black students from homes of 80,000 dollars income or more perform like white students from homes with incomes of less than 20,000 dollars - in the words of Abigail Thernstrom - who has presided over the best story in education - that in Massachusetts (more on that later) - it is a statistic that could make anyone cry. And Hispanics - depending how defined - don't do much better. And if you are disinclined to believe the Thernstroms - explain to me how the Seattle and Louisville school systems appealed their cases all the way to the Supreme Court - publicly claiming that socio-economic diversity if implemented would not result in diversity. Ditto for the University of Michigan - socio-economic diversity won't - as they loudly proclaimed in trying to defeat MCRI - produce racial diversity - other than perhaps throw considerably more first generation Asians - you know - the kind with a cultural appreciation for education - and the kind that are being treated like a cheap commodity in the McNair district - something to which they are, however, used when it comes to their struggles with paternalistic white liberals. I would prefer that racial identity not play any part in policy making - but since it is used so often to establish entitlements or sympathy or policy - it almost has to be. And it is not helpful to solving the achievement gap to pretend that it does not exist. There is a cultural problem in these communities - and it needs to be talked about.

All of this makes for an interesting point. SLHS has almost zero empathy points. Some of the arrogance of the posters here may account for it - and maybe the racism or whatever other ism may exist in those that don't like the place may account for some of it too. But let's face it - many don't like it because its declining enrollment and obvious student exodus reflect the failures of public education. Too many years with a questionable principal installed for racial identity purposes, too much soft, self esteem focused education - in the place of solid phonetically based reading and fundamentally sound, memory based mathematics - too much coddling of ill disciplined students, and too much focus on social programs to the exclusion of education, as if schools could solve all of the communities problems, and too much mindless celebration of diversity in place of real learning and inculcation of critical thinking - where real diversity lay. Witness as I reflect above the so-called Massachusetts miracle - chaired in part by Abigail Thernstrom and a non-partisan group of education leaders willing to junk the "progressive" warmed over education pedagogy that dominates so many educational institutions. Real phonics, real math, real discipline, and swift and firm treatment of those who don't want to learn. Massachusetts scores have zoomed. Now, there have been better signals emanating from South Lakes, but really, how much confidence can anyone have in this School Board? - the decline of the school has been precipitous - especially when compared to 20 years ago.

So in the end - although castigated as abrasive and insensitive - Neen is right. The policies that the education establishment has peddled - by and large just don't work. And the fact that they don't doesn't seem to bother most of the liberal education establishment - a luxury they enjoy because - No Child Left Behind or Not - they are geniuses when it comes to avoiding competition - rent seeking as only bureaucrats can do - and instilling monopolies where they can. And no matter what "good" can be said about South Lakes - and by the way - there is considerable good - doesn't really matter because people really are skeptical over a forced march to something that looks and feels at best like yet another social experiment and at worst a salve to cover up what appears to be a foolish and indulgent 60 million dollar renovation. Some food for thought, eh?

FoxMillUnited Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> With Floris people, I could not tell what was
> because of other redistrictings and what was
> because they didn't like South Lakes. My friend in
> Floris (also with little children) told me that he
> did not go through any other changes so I didn't
> understand how this would be another one. I'm
> sorry not to seem sensitive to Floris. Maybe all
> of Floris could go to South Lakes?

If you looked at the Gibson questions for this meeting you could see that he was trying to paint a picture that the numerous Floris redistrictings were severely overstated in terms of their true impact on that community. This is something Floris should look at closely.

However, I couldn't have predicted this. These new plans are totally bizarre.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Showing up for a couple of meetings, voting, and
> going home is not what democracy is about. In this
> country, it was put in place NOT to force majority
> rule, but to protect the rights of the minority.
> Democracy does not mean "voting on everything,"
> either. The heart of democracy is being engaged in
> one's community throughout its life and in all the
> systems that matter.
>
> It is about sharing responsibility for all our
> public institutions, every day. That, in fact, is
> exactly why Russia and China and North Korea and
> so many other countries are not democracies, yet
> they ALL have "input" and "voting" systems. It is
> about continuous engagement.
>
> Again, "majority" rule is NOT the definition of
> democracy.

Elizabeth, why be anonymous? As President of SLPTA, surely you want everyone to know who you are. Aren't you the one who said it was 'creepy' to post anonymously? Or was that Maria?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2008 10:27PM by Neen.

Looking at all the events unfolded, this redistricting turned out to be better than an animal show. The school board members are bunch of drunks who obviously have no clue what they are trying to achieve. They are wasting our tax payers money. Gibson must be in drug by proposing an option to further splitting up Fox Mill. No wonder there are so many school killings. The school board is trying hard to teach community members how to destroy each other. My prediction is, after this redistrict, there will not be any community in peace any more. People should be concerned about sending their children to schools now, as the kids have learned so much about how to destroy each other's life. There could be more headlines in national news on shooting incidents in Fairfax schools. Scary enough to even think about it.

>>>Option 5 is dead...

They are on Option 11b and 12.<<<

Can someone tell us what the current proposal looks like?

What a shame they wasted so much money on those silly public boundary meetings, and wasted so much of our time.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled (I do understand why you call yourself
> that): Yes, members of the SLHS community did go
> to Floris and Fox Mill, and individuals
> communicated with Madison Island folks. Bruce
> Butler visited those communities several times,
> along with students and parents. Those communities
> were invited to the school, over and over again.
> Most chose not to go. Most chose not to listen.
> That cannot be helped. But it cannot be said that
> South Lakes outreach wasn't there. Selective
> amnesia may be at work. (I don't know the extent
> of Herndon's outreach, though I do know
> McNair/Aldrin/Armstrong were quite included in its
> discussions.)
>
> Again, the SLHS boundary study group and the
> Herndon groups have members who live and love
> McNair, Floris, and Fox Mill and support the
> boundary change.

I went to a couple of Bruce's propaganda visits, complete with the 20 charming IB Diploma Candidates. Apparently all of the kids from SL go to the Ivys or UVA.

I went to see some of the charming AP candidates. Apparently all the kids from Wesfield go to the Ivy's or MIT. Pffft......

schoolboardaredrunk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looking at all the events unfolded, this
> redistricting turned out to be better than an
> animal show. The school board members are bunch of
> drunks who obviously have no clue what they are
> trying to achieve. They are wasting our tax payers
> money. Gibson must be in drug by proposing an
> option to further splitting up Fox Mill. No wonder
> there are so many school killings. The school
> board is trying hard to teach community members
> how to destroy each other. My prediction is, after
> this redistrict, there will not be any community
> in peace any more. People should be concerned
> about sending their children to schools now, as
> the kids have learned so much about how to destroy
> each other's life. There could be more headlines
> in national news on shooting incidents in Fairfax
> schools. Scary enough to even think about it.

When you elect a bunch of clowns, you shouldn't be surprised when a circus breaks out.

Not Jack Dale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I wish I could provide a greater level of
> detail
> > on the new scenarios, which are not written in
> > stone, they are proposals presented by Stu and
> > Kathy.
> >
> > they were very confusing with all of the
> > manipulations. New public testimony night on
> 2/19
> > and new SB work session on 2/21 will shed more
> > light in addition the maps will be posted
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > The Floris folks called this earlier when they
> > said Kathy had started a campaign to get them
> out.
> This is what I recall
>
> 11b (smith)
> McNair to Herndon
> madison Island to South Lakes
> Don't move Navy to Oakton
> Move Floris to South Lakes with exception of small
> community with access to Centreville road
> Part of Oak Hill to South Lakes (?)
> Fox Mill (?)
>
> 12 (Gibson)
> McNair to herndon
> Madison Island to South Lakes
> Don't move navy to Oakton
> 1/2 of Floris to Oakton, 1/2 to South Lakes
> Oak Hill(?)
> Fox Mill(?)

The only place you could realistically move Oak Hill is to Westfield and you'd have to plenty of kids out to make room if you want to reduce the headcount at WFHS and CHS. Hence, the McNair, Floris and FM moves to Herndon, Oakton and SL.

Maybe they'll go for the split feeder trifecta and split Oak Hill along with FM and Floris.

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair moves to Herndon in both Stu and Kathy's
> scenarios if I remember correctly. There were two
> Herndon PTAs there, Jane looked over for their
> approval and received it.

Why did they bother to have the community meetings? Why did they bother to have people testify about option #5, if there is to be a new option now, with no time for public comment? This is bizarre, to say the least.

Quantum: A lot to digest. I'll think about it.

I'm familiar with the Orfield study. It should be noted that the research shows that socioeconomic balance, while not ipso facto resulting in racial balance (plenty of evidence for that), does result in higher achievement for those at the lower end of the scale. I don't think South Lakes or Herndon are concerned much with the racial issues. Neither are the other schools. Those seem to have been laid to rest. Few if any are arguing that the color of skin or national origin is the key concern. However, poverty or near-poverty remains the single most influential factor in a student's success overall, and in the resources needed at schools that must address it. (And yes, there are cultural issues, too. We could go into that.)

There are many ways to go about addressing the educational/cultural issues related to poverty. But getting the ratios in schools to a manageable level is critical. Then all those other programs and efforts have a higher chance of success. Given that South Lakes is at least 10% over the county average, and given that this boundary change provides an opportunity for an immediate impact for these kids without harming the educational quality for everyone else, this change makes sense.

Now, I am interested in hearing what other Herndon supporters have to say about the McNair move. I need to review the numbers.

All of McNair going to Herndon is a curious idea. With Floris possibly going to South Lakes, let's see, Rachel Carson MS would then feed Herndon, South Lakes, Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield and TJ. Wow! If that isn't a good reason for a Rachel Carson HS.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All of McNair going to Herndon is a curious idea.
> With Floris possibly going to South Lakes, let's
> see, Rachel Carson MS would then feed Herndon,
> South Lakes, Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield and TJ.
> Wow! If that isn't a good reason for a Rachel
> Carson HS.


Make that to Oak Hill HS instead?

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Make that to Oak Hill HS instead?

I can roll with that, too. Or maybe Sully HS? Oak Hill seems a bit close to Oakton, though.

Achievement -
I will just say from personal experience that you have significantly underestimated the affects on individual Floris families and also overestimated just how thrilled all of us were with some of the changes.

You are also claiming more knowledge of what Coppermine might do than you can have at this point. My personal guess is there is a pretty strong likelihood that the result is some domino of some portion of "NE Floris" to McNair and west McNair to Coppermine will be amongst Staff's favorite options. Anyway, the reality is no one knows. That's the problem.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Floris is in the unfortunate position of being at
> the vector of three school districts, but it is
> closest to South Lakes. In addition, when one
> looks at the actual "redistrictings" that
> community has undergone, the only group of kids
> who will be affected by a second redistricting are
> the rising middle schoolers whose families were
> redistricted into brand-new Westfield seven years
> ago when those kids were in primary school or
> younger. None of the rest of Floris can
> legitimately say they were "redistricted" more
> than once before, and certainly not eight times.
> Going to brand-new Carson ten years ago from
> Franklin MS doesn't count (very few complained, if
> any). Having the GT center split and moved from
> Hughes to Carson doesn't count (and was frankly
> openly supported). Having the Japanese immersion
> program moved to Fox Mill doesn't count. Having
> the GT center opened at Oak Hill doesn't count
> (and was frankly openly supported). And the kids
> who went to McNair ES are not being touched by
> this study.
>
> The other "two" of the eight are this boundary
> change (affecting only those middle schoolers who
> never went to any other school, but whose siblings
> are now at Westfield and will not be affected) and
> the upcoming Coppermine school. Coppermine is
> being filled mainly by new and recent housing that
> is right now being built and is and has been
> populated by people who knew very well -- or
> should have known since it was public knowledge --
> that Coppermine was coming and Floris ES would be
> a temporary home. In fact, many of those
> neighborhoods have expressed excitement about
> going to a new neighborhood elementary school.
>

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Elizabeth, why be anonymous? As President of
> SLPTA, surely you want everyone to know who you
> are. Aren't you the one who said it was 'creepy'
> to post anonymously? Or was that Maria?


Elizabeth has NEVER posted here and Maria has posted with her true name. Achievement is not either of them.

Anonymous Wrote:
> ... People moved from Hayfield to South County because
> they thought the process was valid and the
> projections were accurate and there wouldn't be
> overcrowding at South County in spite of the
> community having accurate numbers.
>
> Nobody except Forum Reader believes FCPS
> projections anymore
>
------------
Process and projections had little to do with it; they knew SCSS would be crowded if the lines were drawn the way they are but everyone wanted to go to the new school. People who fought hard to have SCSS built did not want to stay in Hayfield. The School Board did not have the courage to say "no" to more of them. Look at the Lorton area, the locations of SCSS and Hayfield, and the roads, AND look at Fort Belvoir and the limited access through it and you might sympathize with these families.

FCPS projections are not perfect, but no one has presented any better. If you have some, with web site and source, I'd be happy to look at them.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All of McNair going to Herndon is a curious
> idea.
> > With Floris possibly going to South Lakes,
> let's
> > see, Rachel Carson MS would then feed Herndon,
> > South Lakes, Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield and
> TJ.
> > Wow! If that isn't a good reason for a Rachel
> > Carson HS.
>
>
> Make that to Oak Hill HS instead?

If Staff had actually been able to count and the Board followed the 2K policy on Westfield, Oak Hill HS would already exist. But, Staff couldn't and the Board didn't.

There were also discussions about expanding RCMS or turning it into a small HS before they decided to expand Westfield.

There's still a planned/unfunded Oak Hill HS in the CIP in the out years.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Make that to Oak Hill HS instead?
>
> I can roll with that, too. Or maybe Sully HS? Oak
> Hill seems a bit close to Oakton, though.


That is true that Oak Hill does sound a bit close to Oakton. Sully High probably sounds better if there ever will be a new high school for the west county.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are also claiming more knowledge of what
> Coppermine might do than you can have at this
> point. My personal guess is there is a pretty
> strong likelihood that the result is some domino
> of some portion of "NE Floris" to McNair and west
> McNair to Coppermine will be amongst Staff's
> favorite options. Anyway, the reality is no one
> knows. That's the problem.

Which brings us back to the question, should the School Board be considering Floris and McNair for high school redistricting right now when one or both of their boundaries are going to be significanly changed with the new Coppermine ES? Relating to this western county study, it would make more sense to square away this elementary school redistricting first.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Baffled Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Make that to Oak Hill HS instead?
> >
> > I can roll with that, too. Or maybe Sully HS?
> Oak
> > Hill seems a bit close to Oakton, though.
>
>
> That is true that Oak Hill does sound a bit close
> to Oakton. Sully High probably sounds better if
> there ever will be a new high school for the west
> county.

How about "1L/19R High"?

Just when does the FAT LADY sing on this???

Quantum has proven to be smarter and far more learned on educational policy than I, and has articulated what I have been trying to say far better than I could.

While there are undoubtedly cultural factors in educational performance when viewed across large groups (witness the outperformance of Jewish and Asian groups relative to others), culture is inculcated from many factors, most importantly but not exclusively from family.

The institutions we are schooled in have an indirect impact, as the attitudes of peers about academic achievement can tend to tug a student in one direction or the other. But HS students tend to seek out like-minded peers. So for example, throwing a Floris population that is 40% Asian into SL will likely have little impact on the lower performers.

More importantly, education is not delivered in concept or in bulk but by individuals, to individuals. So the attitudes of the specific leadership have much more impact than any socio-economic mixing policy. Holding individuals accountable, starting at the top all the way down, is a concept that works in industry and in education.

Whatever happened in the past at SL is in the past, but as long as we hear excuses about the performance there, it doesn't sound like a culture of accountability has taken hold there -- and thus is not an enticing prospect for any Floris or Fox Mill parents. I have no doubt that were such a culture instituted at SL, there would result a dramatic turnaround and these very families that are strenuously opposing the plan would WANT to be part of that.

cominin4landing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about "1L/19R High"?

(sigh) You know, I have on several occasions, when referring to Sully HS, almost typed alternate names relating to the airport. Okay, you went first, so I'll follow on (it's late).

How about - "Concourse D", "Signature Flight", "Propylene Glycol"?

Are we a little concerned about McNair at Herndon, Mr/Ms Achievement?

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now, I am interested in hearing what other Herndon
> supporters have to say about the McNair move. I
> need to review the numbers.

If all of Mcnair goes to Herndon, its FRL goes from 18 to 19%.

Based on the chart referenced earlier, this will have no impact on FRL achievement since HHS will remain above the 15% threshold that seems to be the limit of any salutary impact of mixing FRL with non-FRL kids (unless the FRL is at Stuart. What are they doing at Stuart?)

cominin4landing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> How about "1L/19R High"?


Westfield is right under the flight path.

Oak Hill HS wouldn't be. The runways don't point that way (assuming it'd be somewhere near RCMS).

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Whatever happened in the past at SL is in the
> past, but as long as we hear excuses about the
> performance there, it doesn't sound like a culture
> of accountability has taken hold there -- and thus
> is not an enticing prospect for any Floris or Fox
> Mill parents. I have no doubt that were such a
> culture instituted at SL, there would result a
> dramatic turnaround and these very families that
> are strenuously opposing the plan would WANT to be
> part of that.

Point of fact: There have been no "excuses" about "performance" at South Lakes. There is no need for them. In fact, if you read through all these posts and look at the actual scores, you will note that there has been rising achievement among lower performers. More important, when you factor out the performance of lower socioeconomic strata (whose achievement can be expected to rise at a faster rate when they are only 24% of the population, as happened at Herndon) - here and at other schools - it is clear that the college-bound kids at all the schools are doing nearly identically well. This has all been addressed before. It is important to point it out now, though, to once again dispel the notion that South Lakes is an underachieving school. That is a very old and baseless saw.

McNair to Herndon, hmmmm. Well, the stretch of Sunrise Valley Rd next to the Clock Tower shopping center IS sponsored by the Herndon HS Navy JROTC, afterall.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield is right under the flight path.
>
> Oak Hill HS wouldn't be. The runways don't point
> that way (assuming it'd be somewhere near RCMS).

Ahh, but on windy days, the planes approach from the east onto the east-west runway, right over Sully HS.

Achievement, go to SchoolMatters.org and compare Westfield, South Lakes and Stuart.

Please note the comparative performance of the "disadvantaged" students.

The numbers clearly indicate there is still underperformance at SL. Not and old saw, a current one apparently. There has been plenty of denial that we have heard, and it sounds a lot like excuses.

For the culturally advantaged students, SL still underperforms, particularly in math and science.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cominin4landing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How about "1L/19R High"?
>
> (sigh) You know, I have on several occasions, when
> referring to Sully HS, almost typed alternate
> names relating to the airport. Okay, you went
> first, so I'll follow on (it's late).
>
> How about - "Concourse D", "Signature Flight",
> "Propylene Glycol"?

ooo, ooo, ooo, maybe there will be moving sidewalks with cavemen on them to help move the 2000 students along. all the kids would have to be on FRL so they can afford to eat the airport snacks. On a "oh-well" note, the clear "security-approved" backpacks will be a throwback to the eighties. But on the brighter side, everybody can wear their fancy hospital like slippers around to class. lol!