future Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Fox Mill is closer to South Lakes than Aldrin
> is. But yes, Aldrin should have come first. But
> they didn't and this is the situation we are in.
> 2. There are parts of Reston that are not in the
> special tax district that go to SL and they get
> along just fine as part of the SL community.
> (Shaker Woods, Polo Club, GF Crossing, etc.)
> 3. I said that "IN TIME" this will occur. The
> entire point of the first post was that the RD
> will not be judged on its first year. 20 years ago
> FM was part of the Herndon community. 10 years
> from now it will absolutely consider itself part
> of SL.

I know where Aldrin is and it is just as CLOSE to SL as Fox Mill is and Aldrin should have gone first. Favoritsm played a big part in this process.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> future Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 1. Fox Mill is closer to South Lakes than
> Aldrin
> > is. But yes, Aldrin should have come first...
>
> Fox Mill has residences further from South Lakes
> than Aldrin residences. Once again Aldrin has no
> changes and once again new construction near
> Herndon High is going to Langley schools instead
> of Armstrong or Aldrin. I'm sick of paying for
> this junk.

And what about Floris? We have nothing common with South Lakes, no boundary, no elementary school, no middle school. They took 25% of Floris, why??

What happened to

"Reston schools for Reston kids?"

whyflorisinthismess Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > future Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > 1. Fox Mill is closer to South Lakes than
> > Aldrin
> > > is. But yes, Aldrin should have come first...
>
> >
> > Fox Mill has residences further from South
> Lakes
> > than Aldrin residences. Once again Aldrin has
> no
> > changes and once again new construction near
> > Herndon High is going to Langley schools
> instead
> > of Armstrong or Aldrin. I'm sick of paying for
> > this junk.
>
> And what about Floris? We have nothing common with
> South Lakes, no boundary, no elementary school, no
> middle school. They took 25% of Floris, why??
>
> What happened to
>
> "Reston schools for Reston kids?"


I have more sympathy for Floris than I do for Fox Mill. But you DO share a boundary with Dogwood and with Fox Mill which is now a SL school. Aldrin should have come first, but the slogan "Reston's schools for Reston's kids" was never wide spread and was used more by anti-RD than pro.

I totally understand why Floris and MI families would be particularly upset by the RD. It splits their schools, which it doesn't do to FM (don't take that as an endorsement!). However, I don't think that Aldrin would be very pleased if they were the affected school either, although moving some of Langley to Herndon and moving Aldrin to SL at least would make more sense. Westfield and Chantilly may be big, but Langley is slated for expansion, which makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

I heard that today the 8th graders at Carson are supposed to choose classes for next year. Talk about confusion. Most of those kids don't know where they will be going, and trying to arrange the kids by address won't help because of pupil placement plans. Also, it will show the kids in living color just how split up Carson is now. Sad.

future Wrote:
>
> Not necessarily. Every year more and more of the
> younger families that are currently worried about
> South Lakes/IB will hear back from their neighbors
> who went that it is a great school and they won't
> feel the need to pupil place. The SB knows this
> and won't be basing success on the first year.


How would that work? The neighbours are only going to say that there is no AP. That is a fact and there will be no credits for students attending IB. As for SL being a great school - people dont go on heresay - they pull up scores and course offerings. Both areas which SL, Bruce and SB refuse to address - at some point the great slhs will have to produce results - scores and # of AP courses.

"I have more sympathy for Floris than I do for Fox Mill. But you DO share a boundary with Dogwood and with Fox Mill which is now a SL school. Aldrin should have come first, but the slogan "Reston's schools for Reston's kids" was never wide spread and was used more by anti-RD than pro."

So you don't have sympathy at all for Fox Mill even though this RD has disrupted many families from FM esp with older sibs already in high school? Or for those whose kids were planning for AP studies. From the tone of your post, I take it that is perfectly okay to disrupt hundreds of families not just from F/FM/MI, but also in the Navy area.

Wolftrap is not a split school because the MI kids are going to Sunrise Valley.

It is time for all the good liberals on the Fairfax County Board to recognize just how regressive property taxes are. They hit lower income and lower middle class people (including the elderly on fixed incomes) very hard. And they have even worse regressive optics when the real estate market is in, let's be kind, a recession, and taxpayers obligations are based on what are very likely illusory valuations of their properties.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I have more sympathy for Floris than I do for Fox
> Mill. But you DO share a boundary with Dogwood and
> with Fox Mill which is now a SL school. Aldrin
> should have come first, but the slogan "Reston's
> schools for Reston's kids" was never wide spread
> and was used more by anti-RD than pro."
>
> So you don't have sympathy at all for Fox Mill
> even though this RD has disrupted many families
> from FM esp with older sibs already in high
> school? Or for those whose kids were planning for
> AP studies. From the tone of your post, I take it
> that is perfectly okay to disrupt hundreds of
> families not just from F/FM/MI, but also in the
> Navy area.


Did I say I had no sympathy? No. The entire situation is miserable for anyone effected right now. I am speaking more toward the families with children in Elm school right now. The Navy decision is ridiculous and should not have occured.

Future

Do you know why Navy had to go to Oakton?

You are making a very wrong assumption. I am not from South Lakes and I am mad that Neen helped to vote Stu in. Now we are stuck with listening to her preach on this site against the very person she helped vote in. If I were from SL, I would love her for voting Stu in.

You may think Neen is amazing, and that is your right, but I don't see anything amazing about her behavior. As to hearing good things, I have never heard her say one good thing about South Lakes or Stu Gibson, yet she voted for him. So much for the strength of her convictions. I think she also was very much against opening TJ to minorities (except Asians). She is all about the top tier kids, to hell with the others, despite what she says.

Maybe your are really Neen. Wouldn't surprise me.

nemesis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1) Anyone who thinks they can judge a human being
> on the basis of posts of Fairfax Underground is
> fooling themselves. Neen is an amazing person and
> has advocated on more issues than you know. If
> the little bird was from the SL pyramid, have you
> ever considered the fact that your sources
> evidence the same bias you have?
>
> 2) If you think ad hominem attacks will help the
> SL cause, think again. When you get unhappy with
> the strength of her criticisms, you attack her
> personally thinking she will back down. Haven't
> you realized by now it isn't going to work? The
> strength of your ideas will be borne out in the
> marketplace. If people hear good things and
> you're welcoming, they'll come. If not, they
> won't come. Attacking Neen does zippo to aid your
> cause or convince people you're open minded enough
> to have people with differing viewpoints join the
> SL community. In fact, it does the opposite.
>
>
>
> Truth About Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A little bird told me that Neen campaigned for
> > Stu, so we can thank her for his tenure. Even
> > though she says the process was 'flawed' she is
> > pleased that her precious Madison was left out
> of
> > the process. She has no clue about how to
> teach
> > poor children, since she chose a mostly white
> and
> > middle class to affluent community to live in
> > (Town of Vienna), had children in GT, and
> directed
> > her volunteer efforts toward the top 5% of
> > students, not the bottom 50%.
> >
> > Since she voted for Stu and Clinton (so much
> for
> > her judgement), I guess she is a former
> limousine
> > liberal/ now elite libertarian/conservative.
> She
> > degrades anyone here who makes their own choice
> > (if it's IB) or who chooses the humanities,
> even
> > though she has said herself that she is not the
> > math/science type. She seems like one of those
> > Moms who lived through her children, since she
> > brags here about her son the engineer, and that
> is
> > why she now spends so much time on FU; no life
> of
> > her own. She never says a word about her other
> > son, so I guess since he didn't make it to TJ
> > there is not much to brag about.
> >
> > Judge for yourself.

navy?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Future
>
> Do you know why Navy had to go to Oakton?


Yes. Don't try to put that on South Lakes. There are other schools closer to Oakton that could have been involved just like Langley and Madison could have been involved. I never said the process was anywhere near perfect. The point of my posts is that in time, South Lakes will be just as much your school as Oakton/Westfield/Madison was. In my opinion, it is a bigger hassel to you than needed to pupil place to a completely different school just to spite the SB. (AP is the real issue for some which is fine, for others it is not.) And in time, the future members of your community will realize that.

And by completely different school, I mean not SL and not your previous school (M/O/W).

future Wrote:
>
> I have more sympathy for Floris than I do for Fox
> Mill. But you DO share a boundary with Dogwood and
> with Fox Mill which is now a SL school.


The selected Floris also shares THREE boundaries with Westfield.

future Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> navy?? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Future
> >
> > Do you know why Navy had to go to Oakton?
>
>
> Yes. Don't try to put that on South Lakes. There
> are other schools closer to Oakton that could have
> been involved just like Langley and Madison could
> have been involved. I never said the process was
> anywhere near perfect. The point of my posts is
> that in time, South Lakes will be just as much
> your school as Oakton/Westfield/Madison was. In my
> opinion, it is a bigger hassel to you than needed
> to pupil place to a completely different school
> just to spite the SB. (AP is the real issue for
> some which is fine, for others it is not.) And in
> time, the future members of your community will
> realize that.


Future,

You don't have a clue why Navy was sent to Oakton !!

My son just came back from RCMS. He is telling me that a section of Fox Mill Kids sat all the way back and went through the motions for SL orientation. Most of them said it was waste of time as they are going to Oakton (via pupil placement).

He also said, a few kids who are going to SL are doing it for the IB program as they are very smart. All average and above average kids were pissed as no one wants to go to South Lakes.

future Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> navy?? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Future
> >
> > Do you know why Navy had to go to Oakton?
>
>
> Yes. Don't try to put that on South Lakes. There
> are other schools closer to Oakton that could have
> been involved just like Langley and Madison could
> have been involved. I never said the process was
> anywhere near perfect. The point of my posts is
> that in time, South Lakes will be just as much
> your school as Oakton/Westfield/Madison was. In my
> opinion, it is a bigger hassel to you than needed
> to pupil place to a completely different school
> just to spite the SB. (AP is the real issue for
> some which is fine, for others it is not.) And in
> time, the future members of your community will
> realize that.

I put the Langley- Herndon - South Lakes stuff on the South Lakes PTA boundary committee. They had a website with a lot of information including comments and recommendations for chnages to each of the 4 scenarios. One included a statement about chnaging option 4 to have just Aldrin [I'm not the only bright bulb in this county] but admitted Herndon [AKA Strauss & Langley] wouldn't do it.

Since the members of the SL PTA group ARE and WERE NOT employees , relatives, beneficiaries of Strauss-Langley-Aldrin-Herndon what did they have to lose by posting a plan ? Nothing. Would Gibson have cared? So what? Think he would have cancelled this boundary process? I don't. A lawsuit? The only thing that might have merit is that Langley bussing-construction to avoid more diverse schools closer to residences. That is a big nono especially in a state that was the site of "Remember the Titans." My kids ask me if it was like that where I went to school.

Gang's at it again in FCPS, what a great bunch of schools!

Tires Flattened on 13 School Buses

Police are investigating the vandalism of 13 school buses parked at Falls Church High School, located at 7521 Jaguar Trail. An alarm sounded on Thursday, March 6 around 9:45 p.m., and during a check of the school and its perimeter, 28 tires were found to have been slashed. It is believed that a razor blade was used to flatten the tires.

Police are asking anyone with information about the tamperings to contact Crime Solvers by phone at 1-866-411-TIPS/8477, e-mail at www.fairfaxcrimesolvers.org or text “TIP187” plus your message to CRIMES/274637 or call Fairfax County Police at 703-691-2131.
Attachments:

I guess the Falls Church bus incident is why we need that new $50 million bus transportation center!!

Does anyone have any info on this nasty email response from Kathy Smith where she calls the Westfield parent, Pamela Jones "vile and toxic"?

I saw the email from Jones to Jennifer Campbell and I really did not think she was out of bounds for confronting her.

It really disturbs me that a SB member would personally attack a mother who is just trying to advocate for her child.

Some details would be appreciated.

nofuture Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> future Wrote:
> >
> > I have more sympathy for Floris than I do for
> Fox
> > Mill. But you DO share a boundary with Dogwood
> and
> > with Fox Mill which is now a SL school.
>
>
> The selected Floris also shares THREE boundaries
> with Westfield.


Sunrise Valley shares boarders with Flint Hill, Oakton, Wesbriar, WolfTrap and now Colvin Run Elementaries but only 4 of the SL elm schools. Thats 5 to 4. So it should probably go to Madison right? Definately not SL.

Forest Edge boarders Aldrin, Forestville, Colvin Run and (used to be Wolf Trap) but only 2 of the SL elm schools. Thats 3 (used to be 4) to 2 It should probably go to Langley right? Definately not SL.

With the new boundaries the Floris area at SL is boardered by 2 SL schools and 2 non-SL schools.

how_about_this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My son just came back from RCMS. He is telling me
> that a section of Fox Mill Kids sat all the way
> back and went through the motions for SL
> orientation. Most of them said it was waste of
> time as they are going to Oakton (via pupil
> placement).
>
> He also said, a few kids who are going to SL are
> doing it for the IB program as they are very
> smart. All average and above average kids were
> pissed as no one wants to go to South Lakes.


My daughter said similar things, too. She said it was confusing for those kids. For those not aware or not with RCMS, RCMS had an early dismissal today.

Truth about Neen - one of the crucial things about any form of debate is to be intellectually honest and principled. Now, Neen doesn't need me to defend herself - but I highly, highly doubt that she was against opening TJ to minorities other than Asians. In fact, that statement is so astounding silly it calls into question your own ability to discuss things in a rational way. What Neen and others (including myself) object to is admission to TJ or anywhere else, for that matter, on the basis of race, or admission or any criteria therefore being made with racial preferences at issue. Whether or not you like the result, there is a very sound argument to be made that the best way to help end racial discrimination is simply to stop discriminating on the basis of race. Period. And moreover, some of the antics and programs that spring from racial identity politics are often corrupt and do very little good (if not harm) when measured by any objective yardstick. So in the end it is flat out wrong - and frankly very damaging to the point you deign to make, to aver that Neen (or others like her) is "against opening minorities to TJ other than Asians". Why not simply state that you disagree with her on affirmative action?

And I wonder what these personal, ad hominem attacks do in any event. They don't seem to bolster any substantive argument. And in your case, as I relate, they have done your own cause harm.

Take a moment of silence and think about what some of the students in RCMS had to go through today. They were today confronted with the real results of the failed RD - friendships broken, dreams and hopes crashed with the stark reality of having to go to SLHS with no possibility of taking courses that their friends in Oakton and Westfield are signing up for.

Quantum, what is my cause?

moment_of_silence Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Take a moment of silence and think about what some
> of the students in RCMS had to go through today.
> They were today confronted with the real results
> of the failed RD - friendships broken, dreams and
> hopes crashed with the stark reality of having to
> go to SLHS with no possibility of taking courses
> that their friends in Oakton and Westfield are
> signing up for.

What 9th grade courses are not offered at SL that are offered at Oakton and Westfield? Honors and SL IB courses are comparable. If what you say is true, does that not bolster the argument that the SL supporters have been making all along - that they do not have sufficient numbers of kids to offer the range of courses offered at surrounding schools?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 01:39PM by SLVerity.

Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess the Falls Church bus incident is why we
> need that new $50 million bus transportation
> center!!
>
> Does anyone have any info on this nasty email
> response from Kathy Smith where she calls the
> Westfield parent, Pamela Jones "vile and toxic"?
>
> I saw the email from Jones to Jennifer Campbell
> and I really did not think she was out of bounds
> for confronting her.
>
> It really disturbs me that a SB member would
> personally attack a mother who is just trying to
> advocate for her child.
>
> Some details would be appreciated.

Well if you saw the email to Campbell, then maybe you can just send an email to Jones and ask.

SLVerity

Nice to see you back. I thought you had said good bye to this board with an insulting horses not drinking water comment.

That was not me, that was probably IBVeritas, another poster altogether.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was not me, that was probably IBVeritas,
> another poster altogether.


Sorry

My bad.
:)

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how_about_this Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My son just came back from RCMS. He is telling
> me
> > that a section of Fox Mill Kids sat all the way
> > back and went through the motions for SL
> > orientation. Most of them said it was waste of
> > time as they are going to Oakton (via pupil
> > placement).
>
> My daughter said similar things, too. She said it
> was confusing for those kids. For those not aware
> or not with RCMS, RCMS had an early dismissal
> today.

That is the kids that actually went to school today. Some just didn't show up so they wouldn't have to sit through the pointless humiliation.

how_about_this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My son just came back from RCMS. He is telling me
> that a section of Fox Mill Kids sat all the way
> back and went through the motions for SL
> orientation. Most of them said it was waste of
> time as they are going to Oakton (via pupil
> placement).
>
> He also said, a few kids who are going to SL are
> doing it for the IB program as they are very
> smart. All average and above average kids were
> pissed as no one wants to go to South Lakes.


So the few kids that are going to SL are "very smart" and are going for IB? Don't they know it's inferior to AP and they wont get college credit, or at least not as much college credit? Curious.

I check in from time to time but nothing has really changed, has it? Some people try to elevate the discussion, some hurl gratuitous insults, some repost the same old comments ad nauseum, some reach out and try to begin the healing, some respond in kind, and both get rebuffed or ignored or smacked. Fox Mill families who choose to go to South Lakes either have brilliant kids (and we know that because Forum Reader has told us that only top tier kids can do the IB diploma - I guess my kids were smarter than I thought) or they are traitors.

I hope that the majority of parents in our larger community beyond this forum are getting on with their lives, making adjustments, and putting all this in perspective.

As I have said many times, good luck to all, no matter where you end up, and I sincerely hope that the families ending up at South Lakes will be pleasantly surprised and will come to love the school as much as I do.

rcmschaos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > how_about_this Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > My son just came back from RCMS. He is
> telling
> > me
> > > that a section of Fox Mill Kids sat all the
> way
> > > back and went through the motions for SL
> > > orientation. Most of them said it was waste
> of
> > > time as they are going to Oakton (via pupil
> > > placement).
> >
> > My daughter said similar things, too. She said
> it
> > was confusing for those kids. For those not
> aware
> > or not with RCMS, RCMS had an early dismissal
> > today.
>
> That is the kids that actually went to school
> today. Some just didn't show up so they wouldn't
> have to sit through the pointless humiliation.


No, no, no. Please, let's not make this more of a drama than it really is. There was no pointless humiliation. My child is a rising 9th grader at Carson (and yes, we are planning to pupil place out of South Lakes for AP). I spoke to him after he got home and he said the whole thing was tedious and boring. He had some friends with him--and they all chipped in and said it was too long and boring. Boring was the operative word. These are not damaged kids. I am VERY much against the RD and hope the Caps lawsuit is successful...but today was not a trauma.

rcmschaos Wrote:

> That is the kids that actually went to school
> today. Some just didn't show up so they wouldn't
> have to sit through the pointless humiliation.


After the RD war, the winning side is counting it POWs and how the POWs can be forced to work to benefit SLHS.

smart kids for IB? Wrote:
> So the few kids that are going to SL are "very
> smart" and are going for IB? Don't they know it's
> inferior to AP and they wont get college credit,
> or at least not as much college credit? Curious.

Most readers are tired of hearing this by now, but once again: The FULL IB Diploma is a good programme for the 5-7% of students for whom it is most suitable. The FULL IB Diploma is a liberal arts programme that requires six IB courses (three or four of them being two-year, High Level courses) including five years of foreign language (can be HL or SL) plus Theory of Knowledge, a 4,000 word research paper, and 150 hours of CAS.

The other 95% or so of students are in almost all cases better off in an AP school where they can take one or two or eight or ten AP courses of their choice, all of which are more likely to earn college advanced placement and credit than are one-year IB Standard Level courses.

Since FCPS avoids magnets that pull high-testing students out of their base schools, it appears an IB Academy just for IB Diploma Candidates and AP high schools for the other 95% of students is the best we can hope for.

humiliation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rcmschaos Wrote:
>
> > That is the kids that actually went to school
> > today. Some just didn't show up so they
> wouldn't
> > have to sit through the pointless humiliation.
>
>
> After the RD war, the winning side is counting it
> POWs and how the POWs can be forced to work to
> benefit SLHS.

Most of the Pro-RD folks have stayed of this board for the last few days. What is simply amazing that some of those continuing to post are driving themselves into a hysteruical frenzy. And doing so with relatively little if any provocation.

In particular, there were some (arguably justified) complaints about the infamous "horses" analogy, but don't think the rest who are posting analogies to "war and POW's", "hitler" and so on commentary are any more righ than the "horse" person.

To boot, the decision has been made - it's over - nobody is asking you to line, and if I were in your issue, I might not like it either, but if so, devote your energy to deal with it.

So if this is not acceptable, then pupil place, send your kid to private school, move or sue, otherwise send your kid to SL and try to make a positive difference.

Please!

truth about neen - your cause, unless you are willing to take credit for being a more ineffective communicator than you already appear to be, is to impugn the credibility of Neen. Of course you did not need me to relate this, so your question is really just an elliptical attempt at being evasive. Not very convincing.

And to this end, what about responding directly to my post? It seems fairly clearly you grossly misrepresented someone's position. I am always curious about those that are on the receiving end of being intellectually shredded, and how they would respond, if, of course, they have any courage of conviction.

Those kids who want to pupil place should have listened at RCMS today. I am pretty sure they need to register with their "home" school in order to even get the pupil placement forms moving. Paperwork is due back to RCMS on Friday. Please make sure your child picks classes that if their PP isn't approved they will take. Otherwise, they will have even less options than they have now!

SLVerity Wrote:
> What 9th grade courses are not offered at SL that
> are offered at Oakton and Westfield? Honors and
> SL IB courses are comparable. If what you say is
> true, does that not bolster the argument that the
> SL supporters have been making all along - that
> they do not have sufficient numbers of kids to
> offer the range of courses offered at surrounding
> schools?

SLV, I thought you knew more about IB and AP than your question indicates, but I will play it straight. There are BIG differences between AP and IB schools even in ninth grade.

It is simple enough to download the Course Selection booklets from the two schools. Compare Social Studies "honors" level core courses.

In the South Lakes IB Social Studies "honors" course, "The first four to six weeks of this course are devoted to a review of the ancient world through the Middle Ages with the rest of the year devoted to the geography and history of Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America from 1500 to the present."

In contrast, the Oakton "honors" social studies course the whole school year is spent in the earlier periods of history (the first "half" of world history) and "offers ninth grade students an opportunity to develop the skills and background knowledge needed to be successful in Advanced Placement World History taken in grade 10."

In both schools the ninth grade course is a lead in to the tenth grade course. Thus it looks like once you are on one "track" it would be a bit of a challenge to switch trains.

SOUTH LAKES

PRE-IB WORLD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY (222107)
Grades: 9 Credit: one
This course is a chronologically organized study of world history and geography with an emphasis on the modern era. The first four to six weeks of this course are devoted to a review of the ancient world through the Middle Ages with the rest of the year devoted to the geography and history of Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America from 1500 to the present. Students examine the relationship among social, economic and geopolitical developments across time and place. They use the processes of conceptual and critical thinking to analyze historical and contemporary issues. Students engage in intensive analytical reading, writing and discussion. This is the first of a four-year history and social science sequence for IB history. Pre-IB World History and Geography meets the course requirements of World History and Geography 2 Honors. This course has an end-of course Standards of Learning test for WHG-II. Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test.

WORLD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY 2 (222100)
Grades: 10 Credit: one
This is the second of a two-year, chronologically organized study of world history and geography. In this second year, students study the world from 1500 through the contemporary era. The course weaves together the skills and content of both history and geography so that students may learn how history and geography affect each other and therefore gain a more complete understanding of the world around them, including North and South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa. Students continue to refine and expand critical thinking skills, practice decision making and problem solving, and formulate questions to guide research. World History and Geography 2 is required for graduation. Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test.

OAKTON:

PRE-AP WORLD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY 1 (221938)
Offered only as part of World Civilizations I in combination with Pre-AP English 9 (113039)
Grades: 9 Credit: one
Pre-AP World History and Geography 1 offers ninth grade students an opportunity to develop the skills and background knowledge needed to be successful in Advanced Placement World History taken in grade 10. Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test. Students enrolled in World Civilizations I will remain in the same groupings for their English and Social Studies classes. Teacher from the two disciplines will collaborate on some lessons and assignments.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT WORLD HISTORY (234004) (234005) If taken in combination with Pre-AP English 10 (114039)
Grades: 10, 11, 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
Advanced Placement World History is designed to develop greater understanding of the evolution of global processes and contacts, in interaction with different types of human societies. This understanding is advanced through a combination of selective factual knowledge and appropriate analytical skills. Focused primarily on the past thousand years of the global experience, the course builds on an understanding of cultural, institutional, and technological precedents that, along with geography, set the human stage prior to 1000. All students are required to take the Advanced Placement World History exam. This course may be used to satisfy the World History and Geography II requirement. Note: When taken as the World History and Geography 2 substitute course, the World History and Geography 2 SOL Test is required. ... Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test.

Oh pleeeeeeeease Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> humiliation Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rcmschaos Wrote:
> >
> > > That is the kids that actually went to school
> > > today. Some just didn't show up so they
> > wouldn't
> > > have to sit through the pointless
> humiliation.
> >
> >
> > After the RD war, the winning side is counting
> it
> > POWs and how the POWs can be forced to work to
> > benefit SLHS.
>
> Most of the Pro-RD folks have stayed of this board
> for the last few days. What is simply amazing
> that some of those continuing to post are driving
> themselves into a hysteruical frenzy. And doing
> so with relatively little if any provocation.
>
> In particular, there were some (arguably
> justified) complaints about the infamous "horses"
> analogy, but don't think the rest who are posting
> analogies to "war and POW's", "hitler" and so on
> commentary are any more righ than the "horse"
> person.
>
> To boot, the decision has been made - it's over -
> nobody is asking you to line, and if I were in
> your issue, I might not like it either, but if so,
> devote your energy to deal with it.
>
> So if this is not acceptable, then pupil place,
> send your kid to private school, move or sue,
> otherwise send your kid to SL and try to make a
> positive difference.
>
> Please!

Have you looked at the economy? Has the school board? If you are in Macy's and see a jacket for $100 are you going to walk through the mall and buy the same jacket for $400? That is what FCPS is doing with IB. AP classes can have writing-the principals have to get off their a$$es and be instructional leaders. You people want IB? Then pay for it yourselves including the annual school fee and the extra teachers. Get some common sense.

Moving is expensive - so is private school. Make a difference in what? The same 700 kids will cost more to educate at South Lakes than if they had stayed in their other schools because of IB.

future Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, South Lakes has always been a community school and now you are part of that
> community. Just like Oakton is a "community" school even though Fox Mill is no
> where near Oakton. It has nothing to do with towns/addresses.

Didn't you listen to Bradsher on the 28th, there are no community schools, they all belong to the School Board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 03:23PM by Thomas More.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth about Neen - one of the crucial things about
> any form of debate is to be intellectually honest
> and principled. Now, Neen doesn't need me to
> defend herself - but I highly, highly doubt that
> she was against opening TJ to minorities other
> than Asians. In fact, that statement is so
> astounding silly it calls into question your own
> ability to discuss things in a rational way. What
> Neen and others (including myself) object to is
> admission to TJ or anywhere else, for that matter,
> on the basis of race, or admission or any criteria
> therefore being made with racial preferences at
> issue. Whether or not you like the result, there
> is a very sound argument to be made that the best
> way to help end racial discrimination is simply to
> stop discriminating on the basis of race. Period.
> And moreover, some of the antics and programs that
> spring from racial identity politics are often
> corrupt and do very little good (if not harm) when
> measured by any objective yardstick. So in the
> end it is flat out wrong - and frankly very
> damaging to the point you deign to make, to aver
> that Neen (or others like her) is "against opening
> minorities to TJ other than Asians". Why not
> simply state that you disagree with her on
> affirmative action?
>
> And I wonder what these personal, ad hominem
> attacks do in any event. They don't seem to
> bolster any substantive argument. And in your
> case, as I relate, they have done your own cause
> harm.

Can't be ad hominem without a homi to nem. Sorry. Unless people post under their own names and identify themselves, ain't no such thang as ad hominem possible on this here board. Not even personal attacks are possible, since everyone hides behind their fake identities. Anybody who takes anything personally here really does need psychiatric care.

Forum Reader,

You do not go from Pre-IB World History to World History II.

Pre-IB World History goes through WH I and WH II in one year, and is considered the honors/accelerated version of WH II (the 10th grade gen ed/SOL class), taken as a 9th grader. If you take Pre-IB WH in 9th grade, then you take Pre-IB US Govt in 10th.

You just compared honors/gen ed to honors/AP. That is not a valid comparison.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh pleeeeeeeease Wrote:

> > Most of the Pro-RD folks have stayed of this
> board
> > for the last few days. What is simply amazing
> > that some of those continuing to post are
> driving
> > themselves into a hysteruical frenzy. And
> doing
> > so with relatively little if any provocation.
> >
> > In particular, there were some (arguably
> > justified) complaints about the infamous
> "horses"
> > analogy, but don't think the rest who are
> posting
> > analogies to "war and POW's", "hitler" and so
> on
> > commentary are any more righ than the "horse"
> > person.
> >
> > To boot, the decision has been made - it's over
> -
> > nobody is asking you to line, and if I were in
> > your issue, I might not like it either, but if
> so,
> > devote your energy to deal with it.
> >
> > So if this is not acceptable, then pupil place,
> > send your kid to private school, move or sue,
> > otherwise send your kid to SL and try to make a
> > positive difference.
> >
> > Please!
>
> Have you looked at the economy? Has the school
> board? If you are in Macy's and see a jacket for
> $100 are you going to walk through the mall and
> buy the same jacket for $400? That is what FCPS
> is doing with IB. AP classes can have writing-the
> principals have to get off their a$$es and be
> instructional leaders. You people want IB? Then
> pay for it yourselves including the annual school
> fee and the extra teachers. Get some common
> sense.
>
> Moving is expensive - so is private school. Make a
> difference in what? The same 700 kids will cost
> more to educate at South Lakes than if they had
> stayed in their other schools because of IB.

Dude/dudette:

I am not arguing that this is a valid discussion that should probably take place. All I am saying is that no matter the amount of hysteria, frenzy or talk on this board is going to change that.

So if those other choices I listed are not acceptable, then try to make "a positive difference" by driving the community, SB, SL, SLHS PTSA and whoever needs to be involved in the direction to change the IB (if that is how you feel) either from the outside or from the inside if your child ends up going to SL.

All I am saying is the majority of the postings that are continuing are essentially the same that have been here if you go back 50, 100 or 150 pages, and continuing to beat a dead "whatever (don't want to use the horse analogy)" is not going to make ANY difference. The only thing that maybe it accomplishes, is that those continuing to do so, maybe they feel better, and if that is what they hope to accomplish, ok, then fine.

Forum Reader, you totally missed the point of what I was saying. I understand that you view everything through the AP prism, so I will just leave it at that. I do have to laugh though when you say that AP is for the other 95%. In which schools are 95% of the students taking AP classes (and please don't count TJ).

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> future Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, South Lakes has always been a community
> school and now you are part of that
> > community. Just like Oakton is a "community"
> school even though Fox Mill is no
> > where near Oakton. It has nothing to do with
> towns/addresses.
>
> Didn't you listen to Bradsher on the 28th, there
> are no community schools, they all belong to the
> School Board.


And ironically those SBMs who have kids, they have made residential choices with whichever school pyramids they have ended up with. Another part in this process besides favoritsm..hyprocrism.

Can't Ad Hominem Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Truth about Neen - one of the crucial things
> about
> > any form of debate is to be intellectually
> honest
> > and principled. Now, Neen doesn't need me to
> > defend herself - but I highly, highly doubt
> that
> > she was against opening TJ to minorities other
> > than Asians. In fact, that statement is so
> > astounding silly it calls into question your
> own
> > ability to discuss things in a rational way.
> What
> > Neen and others (including myself) object to is
> > admission to TJ or anywhere else, for that
> matter,
> > on the basis of race, or admission or any
> criteria
> > therefore being made with racial preferences at
> > issue. Whether or not you like the result,
> there
> > is a very sound argument to be made that the
> best
> > way to help end racial discrimination is simply
> to
> > stop discriminating on the basis of race.
> Period.
> > And moreover, some of the antics and programs
> that
> > spring from racial identity politics are often
> > corrupt and do very little good (if not harm)
> when
> > measured by any objective yardstick. So in the
> > end it is flat out wrong - and frankly very
> > damaging to the point you deign to make, to
> aver
> > that Neen (or others like her) is "against
> opening
> > minorities to TJ other than Asians". Why not
> > simply state that you disagree with her on
> > affirmative action?
> >
> > And I wonder what these personal, ad hominem
> > attacks do in any event. They don't seem to
> > bolster any substantive argument. And in your
> > case, as I relate, they have done your own
> cause
> > harm.
>
> Can't be ad hominem without a homi to nem. Sorry.
> Unless people post under their own names and
> identify themselves, ain't no such thang as ad
> hominem possible on this here board. Not even
> personal attacks are possible, since everyone
> hides behind their fake identities. Anybody who
> takes anything personally here really does need
> psychiatric care.


I love it when you talk Southern Latin.

Apparently there were so many kids missing from the RCMS high school visits today, they said they would be doing a second one with SL for those kids who missed.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader, you totally missed the point of what
> I was saying. I understand that you view
> everything through the AP prism, so I will just
> leave it at that. I do have to laugh though when
> you say that AP is for the other 95%. In which
> schools are 95% of the students taking AP classes
> (and please don't count TJ).


I think she/he meant that of the students taking "advanced" classes (kids that are making the AP vs. IB decisions) that most are better suited for AP instead of IB.

Oh pleeeeeeeease Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dude/dudette:
>
> So if those other choices I listed are not acceptable, then try to make "a
> positive difference" by driving the community, SB, SL, SLHS PTSA and whoever needs > to be involved in the direction to change the IB (if that is how you feel) either > from the outside or from the inside if your child ends up going to SL.

Unless Phil's motion is revised at this week's SB meeting, that will be a wasted effort as his motion locks IB in at SL for 5 years.

dell Wrote:
> Forum Reader,
>
> You do not go from Pre-IB World History to World
> History II.
>
> Pre-IB World History goes through WH I and WH II
> in one year, and is considered the
> honors/accelerated version of WH II (the 10th
> grade gen ed/SOL class), taken as a 9th grader. If
> you take Pre-IB WH in 9th grade, then you take
> Pre-IB US Govt in 10th.
>
> You just compared honors/gen ed to honors/AP. That
> is not a valid comparison.

You are correct. I made an error - unlike most posters I admit my mistakes and learn from them. The structure of the SLHS curriculum guide is confusing. "Pre-IB Comparative Government" is listed AFTER the 11th and 12th grade IB Social studies courses so I missed it. Here is the corrected version:

--------------------

There are BIG differences between AP and IB schools even in ninth grade.

It is simple enough to download the Course Selection booklets from FCPS high schools. Compare Social Studies "honors" level core courses at South Lakes and Oakton.

In the South Lakes IB Social Studies "honors" course, "The first four to six weeks of this course are devoted to a review of the ancient world through the Middle Ages with the rest of the year devoted to the geography and history of Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America from 1500 to the present."

In contrast, the Oakton "honors" social studies course the whole school year is spent in the earlier periods of history (the first "half" of world history) and "offers ninth grade students an opportunity to develop the skills and background knowledge needed to be successful in Advanced Placement World History taken in grade 10."

In both schools the ninth grade course is the beginning of the social studies courses needed for a high school diploma. It appears that once you are on one "track" it would be a bit of a challenge to switch trains.

SOUTH LAKES

"PRE-IB WORLD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY (222107)
Grades: 9 Credit: one
This course is a chronologically organized study of world history and geography with an emphasis on the modern era. The first four to six weeks of this course are devoted to a review of the ancient world through the Middle Ages with the rest of the year devoted to the geography and history of Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America from 1500 to the present. Students examine the relationship among social, economic and geopolitical developments across time and place. They use the processes of conceptual and critical thinking to analyze historical and contemporary issues. Students engage in intensive analytical reading, writing and discussion. This is the first of a four-year history and social science sequence for IB history. Pre-IB World History and Geography meets the course requirements of World History and Geography 2 Honors. This course has an end-of course Standards of Learning test for WHG-II. Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test."

"PRE-IB COMPARATIVE GOVERNMENT (244507)
Grades: 10 Credit: one
In this course, students study political philosophy, the structures and functions of local, state, and national governments. They also investigate the governments of the countries that they will study in their IB history courses. Important elements of the class include Congressional and judicial simulations as well as small and large group discussion and research on current political and economic issues. One additional feature of this course is that the students will have direct instruction in time management and study skills to help prepare them for the rigors of the IB program including IB History I and IB History II."

[Interestingly, the following course has been added to SLHS without any indication as to whether it would be suitable for Pre-IB tenth graders in place of the pre-IB government.]

"ADVANCED PLACEMENT GOVERNMENT (244504)
Grades: 10- 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
The purpose of this course is to prepare students to take the Advanced Placement
examination for which college credit and/or placement may be given if a qualifying score is made. In the study of American government, students interpret national, state, and local government and politics through a study of both general concepts used to interpret U.S. politics and the analysis of specific examples. Completion of this course fulfills the graduation requirement for one credit in Virginia and United States Government. All students are required to take the Advanced Placement Government exam."

[At Oakton AP Government is the advanced social studies course offered to seniors. In my opinion this course is best suited to the older students, about-to-graduate 17 and 18 year olds who are beginning to accept adult responsibilities including registering for selective service, voting, and paying taxes.]
--------------------
OAKTON:

"PRE-AP WORLD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY 1 (221938)
Offered only as part of World Civilizations I in combination with Pre-AP English 9 (113039)
Grades: 9 Credit: one
Pre-AP World History and Geography 1 offers ninth grade students an opportunity to develop the skills and background knowledge needed to be successful in Advanced Placement World History taken in grade 10. Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test. Students enrolled in World Civilizations I will remain in the same groupings for their English and Social Studies classes. Teacher from the two disciplines will collaborate on some lessons and assignments."

"ADVANCED PLACEMENT WORLD HISTORY (234004) (234005) If taken in combination with Pre-AP English 10 (114039)
Grades: 10, 11, 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
Advanced Placement World History is designed to develop greater understanding of the evolution of global processes and contacts, in interaction with different types of human societies. This understanding is advanced through a combination of selective factual knowledge and appropriate analytical skills. Focused primarily on the past thousand years of the global experience, the course builds on an understanding of cultural, institutional, and technological precedents that, along with geography, set the human stage prior to 1000. All students are required to take the Advanced Placement World History exam. This course may be used to satisfy the World History and Geography II requirement. Note: When taken as the World History and Geography 2 substitute course, the World History and Geography 2 SOL Test is required. ... Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test."

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh pleeeeeeeease Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dude/dudette:
> >
> > So if those other choices I listed are not
> acceptable, then try to make "a
> > positive difference" by driving the community,
> SB, SL, SLHS PTSA and whoever needs > to be
> involved in the direction to change the IB (if
> that is how you feel) either > from the outside or
> from the inside if your child ends up going to
> SL.
>
> Unless Phil's motion is revised at this week's SB
> meeting, that will be a wasted effort as his
> motion locks IB in at SL for 5 years.


But like with everything else, if eventually the decision is to switch to IB, they can always pass another motion to rescind the first motion.

No. No. No. Do not allow your student to register for any class at any school other than the one you are attempting to pupil place in. You only have to turn in the pupil placement form at the new base school (SL) and be interviewed by the principal. Please do not confuse the kids any more than necessary by signing up for classes at 2 different schools.

Finally, don't forget to check out the CAPS web page for current information regarding pupil placement.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader, you totally missed the point of what
> I was saying.

--
Then can you please restate you point? SLVerity Wrote:
> "What 9th grade courses are not offered at SL that
> are offered at Oakton and Westfield? Honors and
> SL IB courses are comparable. ..."

I responded by pointing out "Honors" (now called "Pre-AP") ninth grade social studies is significantly different from Pre-IB ninth grade social studies. Isn't that an appropriate response to your question?

In pre-IB classes only "The first four to six weeks of this course are devoted to a review of the ancient world through the Middle Ages with the rest of the year devoted to the geography and history of Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America from 1500 to the present." In contrast, in AP high schools the honors/pre-AP classes spend the whole year on the "first half" of world history. In AP schools "honors" students normally take AP World History in tenth grade and can earn college placement and credit for it.

Do all students take AP courses? No, but a significantly higher percentage of students in AP schools take at least one AP exam than do students in IB schools take at least one IB exam.

# Students in school, grades 9-12 36,149 AP / 14,942 IB
# Students who took at least one exam (2007) 13,856 AP / 2,146 IB
% of students who take at least one exam 38.3% AP / 14.4% IB

These are ALL grades of students. The number of just juniors and seniors is about half that, so ABOUT 76.6% of juniors and seniors in AP schools take an AP exam while only ABOUT 28.8% of juniors and seniors in IB schools take an IB exam.

Forum Reader,

Im sorry but I fail to see where you got that Pre-IB and Pre-AP WH are so vastly different when the Pre-AP description says nothing about the actual curriculum. Could you please explain more on how the material taight in class differs?

Vote for the worst FCPS teacher -

http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/worst_nominate.cfm

Thanks to outmoded, union-defended employment laws and policies, it can be impossible to fire a bad union-protected teacher. That’s why the Center for Union Facts is going to pay the ten worst union-protected teachers in America $10,000 apiece to get out of the classroom - for good. Dedicated, professional teachers have nothing to fear from this contest (in fact, it’s teachers unions who oppose paying better teachers more money); we’re here to showcase the worst of the worst. Tell us your story below!

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In AP
> schools "honors" students normally take AP World
> History in tenth grade and can earn college
> placement and credit for it.
>
>

And, as you noted in your post just previous to this, South Lakes "honors" students can now take AP Government in 10th grade, and earn college placement and credit for it. This is what Stuart does, and it works well for students there. Regarding your belief that it should be offered to students when they are closer to voting age, I can somewhat understand your view, but truly doubt anyone who is civic minded enough to vote when they are of age will forget what they learned as sophomores.

dell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
>
> Im sorry but I fail to see where you got that
> Pre-IB and Pre-AP WH are so vastly different when
> the Pre-AP description says nothing about the
> actual curriculum. Could you please explain more
> on how the material taight in class differs?

Fair question.

Virginia requires, inter alia, four years of social studies in high school. "Courses completed to satisfy this requirement shall include U.S. and Virginia History, U.S. and Virginia Government, and two courses in either world history or geography or both."

The AP path matches this perfectly:
9th: Pre-AP World History (the "first half" of world history and geography: ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, Greece, Rome; the beginnings and growth of the major religions of the world, up through medieval times to about 1500)
10th: AP World History (the "second half" of world history and geography: "Focused primarily on the past thousand years of the global experience, the course builds on an understanding of cultural, institutional, and technological precedents that, along with geography, set the human stage prior to 1000.")
11th: AP US History
12th: AP Government

The IB "honors" social studies path is different because the courses mandated by the International Baccalaureate Organization have, as Neen points out, more of a world view and far less emphasis on US History and government.
9th: Pre-IB World History and Geography
10th: Pre-IB Government
11th: IB I "History of the Americas"
12th: IB II "TOPICS IN 20TH CENTURY WORLD HISTORY"

Excerpts from the IB descriptions:

PRE-IB WORLD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY This course is a chronologically organized study of world history and geography with an emphasis on the modern era. The first four to six weeks of this course are devoted to a review of the ancient world through the Middle Ages with the rest of the year devoted to the geography and history of Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America from 1500 to the present. Students examine the relationship among social, economic and geopolitical developments across time and place. ... This is the first of a four-year history and social science sequence for IB history. ....

PRE-IB COMPARATIVE GOVERNMENT (244507)
Grades: 10 Credit: one
In this course, students study political philosophy, the structures and functions of local, state, and national governments. They also investigate the governments of the countries that they will study in their IB history courses. Important elements of the class include Congressional and judicial simulations as well as small and large group discussion and research on current political and economic issues. ...

IB HISTORY I: HISTORY OF THE AMERICAS (236009)
Grades: 11 Credit: one/weighted +.5
Prerequisite: Pre-IB World History and Geography and Pre-IB Comparative
Government or World History and Geography I and World History and Geography II
Students study political, social, economic and cultural history of the nations of the Western Hemisphere with an emphasis placed on the history of the United States and are introduced to history as a discipline, the nature and variety of historical sources, and the historian’s methods. The historical narrative begins with the fifteenth century encounter by Europeans with American cultures and concludes with the entrance of the United States upon the world stage in the early years of the twentieth century. Topics for study include encounter and exchange, colonial institutions, collapse of imperial regimes, evolution of nineteenth century institutions, and the Americas in the industrial age. ...

IB HISTORY II: TOPICS IN 20TH CENTURY WORLD SL/HL HISTORY (236109)
Grades: 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5 Prerequisite: IB History I: History of the Americas
This course offers students an opportunity to study selected twentieth century topics in World History in an international dimension. Case studies of the major events and issues of the twentieth century are studied. Topics are chosen from the following list: causes, practices and effects of war; nationalist and independence movements, decolonization and challenges facing new states; the rise and rule of single-party states; the establishment and work of international organizations; the Cold War; the state and its relationship with religion and the minorities. ...

------------

Interestingly, at Robinson the tenth grade "Pre-IB Government" course IS the AP course - which makes a lot of sense to me.
PRE-IB AP GOVERNMENT (244506)
Grades: 10 Credit: one/weighted +.5
In this course students study political philosophy, the structures and functions of local state, and national governments. They also investigate the governments of the countries they will study in their IB history courses. Important elements of the class include the simulations about Congress and the courts as well as small and large group discussion and research on current political and economic issues. ... Completion of this course fulfills the graduation requirement for one credit in Virginia and United States Government. Students are required to take the Advanced Placement Government exam. Required summer assignment

AP vs IB Wrote:
> And, as you noted in your post just previous to
> this, South Lakes "honors" students can now take
> AP Government in 10th grade, and earn college
> placement and credit for it. This is what Stuart
> does, and it works well for students there.
> Regarding your belief that it should be offered to
> students when they are closer to voting age, I can
> somewhat understand your view, but truly doubt
> anyone who is civic minded enough to vote when
> they are of age will forget what they learned as
> sophomores.

It is NOT clear from the South Lakes guide that pre-IB students may take AP Government. It makes sense (see the above description for Robinson) but they are still listed as separate courses at SLHS. (Does anyone know why?)

Students used to study driver's ed in ninth grade. When the permit age went up, the class was moved back to tenth. If you "truly doubt anyone who is civic minded enough to vote when they are of age will forget what they learned as sophomores," then do you also believe that we should have just kept teaching driver's ed to ninth graders?

The Government/Civics course means more to those who have received their first paycheck and seen how much is taken out by the government. The draft and the possibility of military service is more meaningful to those who are signing up with Selective Service. There is a huge difference between discussing politics and actually voting. In general seniors are more mature and have more life experience - experience with money, possibly with death or divorce in the family or with the medical system or with the courts. There is a big difference between 15 and 18.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > And, as you noted in your post just previous to
> > this, South Lakes "honors" students can now
> take
> > AP Government in 10th grade, and earn college
> > placement and credit for it. This is what
> Stuart
> > does, and it works well for students there.
> > Regarding your belief that it should be offered
> to
> > students when they are closer to voting age, I
> can
> > somewhat understand your view, but truly doubt
> > anyone who is civic minded enough to vote when
> > they are of age will forget what they learned
> as
> > sophomores.
>
> It is NOT clear from the South Lakes guide that
> pre-IB students may take AP Government. It makes
> sense (see the above description for Robinson) but
> they are still listed as separate courses at SLHS.
> (Does anyone know why?)
>
> Students used to study driver's ed in ninth grade.
> When the permit age went up, the class was moved
> back to tenth. If you "truly doubt anyone who is
> civic minded enough to vote when they are of age
> will forget what they learned as sophomores," then
> do you also believe that we should have just kept
> teaching driver's ed to ninth graders?
>
> The Government/Civics course means more to those
> who have received their first paycheck and seen
> how much is taken out by the government. The draft
> and the possibility of military service is more
> meaningful to those who are signing up with
> Selective Service. There is a huge difference
> between discussing politics and actually voting.
> In general seniors are more mature and have more
> life experience - experience with money, possibly
> with death or divorce in the family or with the
> medical system or with the courts. There is a big
> difference between 15 and 18.

Well, I thought you said that it was added to South Lake's course guide. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Nonetheless, you seem pleased to note that Robinson and Stuart offer AP Government to sophomores.

And of course I don't see the benefit of drivers ed in 9th grade. I was simply stating that I think it is okay that AP Gov't. is offered to sophomores, and clearly since you noted Robinson does it that way you too are comfortable with it.

I assume South Lakes will follow Robinson's and Stuart's lead with the AP Government course.

How is it listed by the way? Why do you think Pre-IB students at South Lakes wouldn't be taking AP government,if it is indeed offered?

AP vs IB Wrote:
> Well, I thought you said that it was added to
> South Lake's course guide. Perhaps I
> misunderstood you. Nonetheless, you seem pleased
> to note that Robinson and Stuart offer AP
> Government to sophomores.
>
> And of course I don't see the benefit of drivers
> ed in 9th grade. I was simply stating that I
> think it is okay that AP Gov't. is offered to
> sophomores, and clearly since you noted Robinson
> does it that way you too are comfortable with it.
>
> I assume South Lakes will follow Robinson's and
> Stuart's lead with the AP Government course.
>
> How is it listed by the way? Why do you think
> Pre-IB students at South Lakes wouldn't be taking
> AP government,if it is indeed offered?

I am NOT "comfortable" with Government as a sophomore course - I think it should be the "capstone" social studies course for all seniors.

But IF some advanced students take government in 10th grade because they are going for the FULL IB Diploma, then make the best of it and offer them the AP Government Course.

Here is how the two courses are listed in the current course guide for South Lakes: Separate, different, and unequal. The pre-IB students "also investigate the governments of the countries that they will study in their IB history courses ... One additional feature of this course is that the students will have direct instruction in time management and study skills to help prepare them for the rigors of the IB program including IB History I and IB History II."

"PRE-IB COMPARATIVE GOVERNMENT (244507)
Grades: 10 Credit: one
In this course, students study political philosophy, the structures and functions of local, state, and national governments. They also investigate the governments of the countries that they will study in their IB history courses. Important elements of the class include Congressional and judicial simulations as well as small and large group discussion and research on current political and economic issues. One additional feature of this course is that the students will have direct instruction in time management and study skills to help prepare them for the rigors of the IB program including IB History I and IB History II.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT GOVERNMENT (244504)
Grades: 10- 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
The purpose of this course is to prepare students to take the Advanced Placement examination for which college credit and/or placement may be given if a qualifying score is made. In the study of American government, students interpret national, state, and local government and politics through a study of both general concepts used to interpret U.S. politics and the analysis of specific examples. Completion of this course fulfills the graduation requirement for one credit in Virginia and United States Government. All students are required to take the Advanced Placement Government exam."

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Here is how the two courses are listed in the
> current course guide for South Lakes: Separate,
> different, and unequal. The pre-IB students "also
> investigate the governments of the countries that
> they will study in their IB history courses ...
> One additional feature of this course is that the
> students will have direct instruction in time
> management and study skills to help prepare them
> for the rigors of the IB program including IB
> History I and IB History II."
>
> "PRE-IB COMPARATIVE GOVERNMENT (244507)
> Grades: 10 Credit: one
> In this course, students study political
> philosophy, the structures and functions of local,
> state, and national governments. They also
> investigate the governments of the countries that
> they will study in their IB history courses.
> Important elements of the class include
> Congressional and judicial simulations as well as
> small and large group discussion and research on
> current political and economic issues. One
> additional feature of this course is that the
> students will have direct instruction in time
> management and study skills to help prepare them
> for the rigors of the IB program including IB
> History I and IB History II.
>
> ADVANCED PLACEMENT GOVERNMENT (244504)
> Grades: 10- 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
> The purpose of this course is to prepare students
> to take the Advanced Placement examination for
> which college credit and/or placement may be given
> if a qualifying score is made. In the study of
> American government, students interpret national,
> state, and local government and politics through a
> study of both general concepts used to interpret
> U.S. politics and the analysis of specific
> examples. Completion of this course fulfills the
> graduation requirement for one credit in Virginia
> and United States Government. All students are
> required to take the Advanced Placement Government
> exam."



Oh, I didn't realize there were essentially two offerings for sophomores. Since neither course is part of the diploma program itself (that is for juniors and seniors) I would highly recommend that students who think they are going for the diploma program, to take the AP Government as sophomores. The study skills aspect addressed in the Pre-IB Government course seems rather pointless, plus the AP course offers a weighted grade and the potential of college credit etc. Students not doing the diploma might want to consider taking AP Government as either a junior or senior in lieu of the US VA Government course.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> Oh, I didn't realize there were essentially two
> offerings for sophomores. Since neither course is
> part of the diploma program itself (that is for
> juniors and seniors) I would highly recommend that
> students who think they are going for the diploma
> program, to take the AP Government as sophomores.
> The study skills aspect addressed in the Pre-IB
> Government course seems rather pointless, plus the
> AP course offers a weighted grade and the
> potential of college credit etc. Students not
> doing the diploma might want to consider taking AP
> Government as either a junior or senior in lieu of
> the US VA Government course.

There are two accelerated 10th grade government courses, so you can understand my confusion. Arguably the main purpose of this redistricting is to improve course offerings at SLHS. I think we agree that one combined Pre-IB Government/AP Government course should be offered, as at Stuart and Robinson.

This is my favorite part:
>
> ADVANCED PLACEMENT GOVERNMENT (244504)
> Grades: 10- 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
> The purpose of this course is to prepare students
> to take the Advanced Placement examination

Wow. Exactly the purpose of high school! To pass a test at the end. Love it.

> There are two accelerated 10th grade government
> courses, so you can understand my confusion.
> Arguably the main purpose of this redistricting is
> to improve course offerings at SLHS. I think we
> agree that one combined Pre-IB Government/AP
> Government course should be offered, as at Stuart
> and Robinson.

"Arguably" is exactly right. You got it wrong, unless you meant "adding" when you said "improving." It's about having enough students to offer ENOUGH of each course so they can take the ones they want and need, to ADD to the existing courses, and so they have flexibility in scheduling.

And gosh, preparing kids for the rigors of advanced courses just isn't necessary, is it. We just know all OUR fab high school kids are terrific at managing their course work when they load up on APs and the like. Plus those sports camps and leagues so they can get athletic scholarships, plus the multitude of clubs they need to be vice presidents of. All OUR kids get by with 7 hours of sleep and absolutely outstanding study skills they learned all through elementary and middle school. It would be an incredible waste of time for them to get some understanding of how to approach those advanced requirements, duh. FCPS is excellent at helping kids with that, isn't it.

Hickory Stick - Southern Latin aside - and spelling errors aside - why not address the substance of what I write? I assume you are fully capable, with a superb education at our better institutions in this country?

To the poster who said that the usurped neighborhoods were now a part of the SL community: No, we are not. We never were and we never will be. When this whole debacle began, it would have been acceptable that our neighborhoods were redistricted IF the process was fair, balanced, made sense, was transparent, if we were actually represented by our SB member, if all schools were affected that should have been. The SB does not have an obligation to include its constituents in its redistricting decisions and they made a grave mistake in doing so for this reason: they exposed their true intentions and those intentions are disgraceful and now we all know it.

Had they followed a fair and transparent process there would not be so much animosity towards SL. Yes, AP is the number one issue and many would have pupil placed out for it; however, many more will now pp out simply because such callous arrogance, such blatant charges of "elitism" and "racism", such "ownership" of our children, such rampant disregard of families split between schools, such selfish me-first, you-never, we want you and were going to have you at all costs attitudes have affected the decisions of parents to absolutely not give in to such despicable tactics. It's AP first, and secondly, it's principle. We are filled with disgust at our spineless SB and the attitude of "we own you" that many at SL are displaying.

The odd part is, you don't even recognize the damage you are still doing. Keep it up and you will be lucky to get 50 kids.

And lastly, to all you mothers of young children in FME that lobbied for the RD and now have your way - why did you not buy property in Reston to begin with? The majority of us chose FME and Floris for our schools. Let me guess. You did not purchase your own homes, your husbands did. You do not know the value of a dollar. You did not know you could get a much nicer house in Reston for the same price because SL is not comparable to Oakton. Now guess what you have done to the rest of us who understood that we would have a smaller home but the school of our choice? We not only lost the school, we lost more equity in our homes than this market has already caused. I know, I'm a real estate agent and have been for years - schools absolutely matter and for those of you who don't know that you are very ill-informed or hiding your heads in the sand.

Plain and simple this RD was mismanged, corrupt, unfair and hideous to behold. Will a lawsuit change anything? I wish, yet there sits "Lady Justice" with her scales in her hand, but look! She's blindfolded! What does this mean? The FCSB obviously got to her first.

Its all about the test Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And gosh, preparing kids for the rigors of
> advanced courses just isn't necessary, is it. We
> just know all OUR fab high school kids are
> terrific at managing their course work when they
> load up on APs and the like. Plus those sports
> camps and leagues so they can get athletic
> scholarships, plus the multitude of clubs they
> need to be vice presidents of. All OUR kids get by
> with 7 hours of sleep and absolutely outstanding
> study skills they learned all through elementary
> and middle school. It would be an incredible waste
> of time for them to get some understanding of how
> to approach those advanced requirements, duh. FCPS
> is excellent at helping kids with that, isn't it.

Perhaps this is in reference to my comment that that aspect seemed pointless in the one course. I think all teachers should incorporate study skills for their course, and to assist students with future courses. I would assume the AP government course would offer those skills too. I just feel it is pointless to say a portion of the course would be devoted to study skills, as if that takes away from the content of the course or is a separate entity.

NoJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the poster who said that the usurped
> neighborhoods were now a part of the SL community:
> No, we are not. We never were and we never will
> be. When this whole debacle began, it would have
> been acceptable that our neighborhoods were
> redistricted IF the process was fair, balanced,
> made sense, was transparent, if we were actually
> represented by our SB member, if all schools were
> affected that should have been. The SB does not
> have an obligation to include its constituents in
> its redistricting decisions and they made a grave
> mistake in doing so for this reason: they exposed
> their true intentions and those intentions are
> disgraceful and now we all know it.
>
> Had they followed a fair and transparent process
> there would not be so much animosity towards SL.
> Yes, AP is the number one issue and many would
> have pupil placed out for it; however, many more
> will now pp out simply because such callous
> arrogance, such blatant charges of "elitism" and
> "racism", such "ownership" of our children, such
> rampant disregard of families split between
> schools, such selfish me-first, you-never, we want
> you and were going to have you at all costs
> attitudes have affected the decisions of parents
> to absolutely not give in to such despicable
> tactics. It's AP first, and secondly, it's
> principle. We are filled with disgust at our
> spineless SB and the attitude of "we own you" that
> many at SL are displaying.
>
> The odd part is, you don't even recognize the
> damage you are still doing. Keep it up and you
> will be lucky to get 50 kids.
>
> And lastly, to all you mothers of young children
> in FME that lobbied for the RD and now have your
> way - why did you not buy property in Reston to
> begin with? The majority of us chose FME and
> Floris for our schools. Let me guess. You did not
> purchase your own homes, your husbands did. You
> do not know the value of a dollar. You did not
> know you could get a much nicer house in Reston
> for the same price because SL is not comparable to
> Oakton. Now guess what you have done to the rest
> of us who understood that we would have a smaller
> home but the school of our choice? We not only
> lost the school, we lost more equity in our homes
> than this market has already caused. I know, I'm
> a real estate agent and have been for years -
> schools absolutely matter and for those of you who
> don't know that you are very ill-informed or
> hiding your heads in the sand.
>
> Plain and simple this RD was mismanged, corrupt,
> unfair and hideous to behold. Will a lawsuit
> change anything? I wish, yet there sits "Lady
> Justice" with her scales in her hand, but look!
> She's blindfolded! What does this mean? The FCSB
> obviously got to her first.

No Justice, I was reading your post. I was thinking how well-worded your commentary was. I was with you all the way. Then, you got to the part about mothers of young children not being purchasers of their homes--that their husbands purchased their homes so they don't know the value of a buck. Boy, you just blew it!! Do you think this is the 1950s? Don't you realize that most husbands need the little lady to help with the down payment and other home-related expenses. I thought you were smart and now I think you're an idiot.

NoJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the poster who said that the usurped
> neighborhoods were now a part of the SL community:
> No, we are not. We never were and we never will
> be. When this whole debacle began, it would have
> been acceptable that our neighborhoods were
> redistricted IF the process was fair, balanced,
> made sense, was transparent, if we were actually
> represented by our SB member, if all schools were
> affected that should have been. The SB does not
> have an obligation to include its constituents in
> its redistricting decisions and they made a grave
> mistake in doing so for this reason: they exposed
> their true intentions and those intentions are
> disgraceful and now we all know it.
>
> Had they followed a fair and transparent process
> there would not be so much animosity towards SL.
> Yes, AP is the number one issue and many would
> have pupil placed out for it; however, many more
> will now pp out simply because such callous
> arrogance, such blatant charges of "elitism" and
> "racism", such "ownership" of our children, such
> rampant disregard of families split between
> schools, such selfish me-first, you-never, we want
> you and were going to have you at all costs
> attitudes have affected the decisions of parents
> to absolutely not give in to such despicable
> tactics. It's AP first, and secondly, it's
> principle. We are filled with disgust at our
> spineless SB and the attitude of "we own you" that
> many at SL are displaying.
>
> The odd part is, you don't even recognize the
> damage you are still doing. Keep it up and you
> will be lucky to get 50 kids.
>
> And lastly, to all you mothers of young children
> in FME that lobbied for the RD and now have your
> way - why did you not buy property in Reston to
> begin with? The majority of us chose FME and
> Floris for our schools. Let me guess. You did not
> purchase your own homes, your husbands did. You
> do not know the value of a dollar. You did not
> know you could get a much nicer house in Reston
> for the same price because SL is not comparable to
> Oakton. Now guess what you have done to the rest
> of us who understood that we would have a smaller
> home but the school of our choice? We not only
> lost the school, we lost more equity in our homes
> than this market has already caused. I know, I'm
> a real estate agent and have been for years -
> schools absolutely matter and for those of you who
> don't know that you are very ill-informed or
> hiding your heads in the sand.
>
> Plain and simple this RD was mismanged, corrupt,
> unfair and hideous to behold. Will a lawsuit
> change anything? I wish, yet there sits "Lady
> Justice" with her scales in her hand, but look!
> She's blindfolded! What does this mean? The FCSB
> obviously got to her first.



you are ridiculous . What you do not understand is the people who you call pro rd are not pro southlakes , we knew it was coming because it is best for the community at large so we looked at the positive . HOw was the RD mismanaged? you have give no proof of was policy was not followed.If you had been at the first meeting on redistricing about South Lakes AP and IB was not brought up .What was brought up was gangs, safety records, violence . You are damaging your children by how you have told them how bad south lakes is and I am sure they see how much you value women,it is even sadder if you are one. ( I am talking aboutyour quote about how our husbands bought our houses because women do not know the value of a doller I feel sorry for you ,Now that that we are going to SouthLakes your kids are proably afraid go to that school due to you own ignorance.

Oh pleeeeeeeease Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > Oh pleeeeeeeease Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > > Dude/dudette:
> > >
> > > So if those other choices I listed are not acceptable, then try to make "a
> > > positive difference" by driving the community, SB, SL, SLHS PTSA and whoever > > > needs to be involved in the direction to change the IB (if that is how you
> > > feel) either from the outside or from the inside if your child ends up
> > > going to SL.
> >
> > Unless Phil's motion is revised at this week's SB meeting, that will be a
> > wasted effort as his motion locks IB in at SL for 5 years.
>
> But like with everything else, if eventually the decision is to switch to IB,
> they can always pass another motion to rescind the first motion.

Just like the SB had the ability to modify the the Boudary Study Area to include Langley and all of Madison but refused to. These SB members are not going to let the expanded SL community (i.e., folks other than the SL PTSA) change the IB to AP.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes "honors" students can now take AP Government in 10th grade, and earn
> college placement and credit for it.

Not yet they don't. AP Government was offered for the first time in at least 5 years in this Spring's course catalog. It remains to be seen if enough rising sophomores actually sign up for this class for it to in fact to be taught.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 08:49PM by Thomas More.

Just as you are working here from information that you know, so am I. It was a provacation to say that those mothers don't know the value of a dollar, but I will tell you this: that is all I have heard, over and over and over - cossetted moms who all want their little girls to go to school at SL together who do not realize that they just gave away the farm. There are hundreds of families out here that made real monetary investments and I do acknowledge that it is not fair to say that mothers did not contribute, of course they did.

Still, the majority of families that bought in FME did so for Oakton HS, that is indisputable. I stand by the fact that property values will go further down in FME because of the RD, and that these parents simply don't care about this and the rest of us are stuck with it.

Arguably Wrong Wrote:
> "... You got it wrong,
> unless you meant "adding" when you said
> "improving." It's about having enough students to
> offer ENOUGH of each course so they can take the
> ones they want and need, to ADD to the existing
> courses, and so they have flexibility in
> scheduling.

Are you saying South Lakes needs more than one advanced/accelerated/honors government course, that it needs both a pre-IB Government and a separate AP Government course? Why not combine them as Robinson has? [Hence my use of the word "improving"].

"PRE-IB AP GOVERNMENT (244506)
Grades: 10 Credit: one/weighted +.5
In this course students study political philosophy, the structures and functions of local state, and national governments. They also investigate the governments of
the countries they will study in their IB history courses. Important elements of the class include the simulations about Congress and the courts as well as small and large group discussion and research on current political and economic issues.
One additional feature of this course is that the students will have direct instruction in time management and study skills to help prepare them for the rigors of the IB program including IB History I and IB History II. Completion of this course fulfills the graduation requirement for one credit in Virginia and United States Government. Students are required to take the Advanced Placement Government exam. Required summer assignment."

NoJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as you are working here from information that
> you know, so am I. It was a provacation to say
> that those mothers don't know the value of a
> dollar, but I will tell you this: that is all I
> have heard, over and over and over - cossetted
> moms who all want their little girls to go to
> school at SL together who do not realize that they
> just gave away the farm. There are hundreds of
> families out here that made real monetary
> investments and I do acknowledge that it is not
> fair to say that mothers did not contribute, of
> course they did.
>
> Still, the majority of families that bought in FME
> did so for Oakton HS, that is indisputable. I
> stand by the fact that property values will go
> further down in FME because of the RD, and that
> these parents simply don't care about this and the
> rest of us are stuck with it.


My, my, my - you are so full of positive energy aren't you?
For as smart as you claim to be, you made a very expensive investment without doing your due diligence, and understanding the risks.
Sorry, but you haver to accept part of the responsibility in this.

NoJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the poster who said that the usurped
> neighborhoods were now a part of the SL community:
> No, we are not. We never were and we never will
> be. When this whole debacle began, it would have
> been acceptable that our neighborhoods were
> redistricted IF the process was fair, balanced,
> made sense, was transparent, if we were actually
> represented by our SB member, if all schools were
> affected that should have been. The SB does not
> have an obligation to include its constituents in
> its redistricting decisions and they made a grave
> mistake in doing so for this reason: they exposed
> their true intentions and those intentions are
> disgraceful and now we all know it.
>
> Had they followed a fair and transparent process
> there would not be so much animosity towards SL.
> Yes, AP is the number one issue and many would
> have pupil placed out for it; however, many more
> will now pp out simply because such callous
> arrogance, such blatant charges of "elitism" and
> "racism", such "ownership" of our children, such
> rampant disregard of families split between
> schools, such selfish me-first, you-never, we want
> you and were going to have you at all costs
> attitudes have affected the decisions of parents
> to absolutely not give in to such despicable
> tactics. It's AP first, and secondly, it's
> principle. We are filled with disgust at our
> spineless SB and the attitude of "we own you" that
> many at SL are displaying.
>
> The odd part is, you don't even recognize the
> damage you are still doing. Keep it up and you
> will be lucky to get 50 kids.
>
> And lastly, to all you mothers of young children
> in FME that lobbied for the RD and now have your
> way - why did you not buy property in Reston to
> begin with? The majority of us chose FME and
> Floris for our schools. Let me guess. You did not
> purchase your own homes, your husbands did. You
> do not know the value of a dollar. You did not
> know you could get a much nicer house in Reston
> for the same price because SL is not comparable to
> Oakton. Now guess what you have done to the rest
> of us who understood that we would have a smaller
> home but the school of our choice? We not only
> lost the school, we lost more equity in our homes
> than this market has already caused. I know, I'm
> a real estate agent and have been for years -
> schools absolutely matter and for those of you who
> don't know that you are very ill-informed or
> hiding your heads in the sand.
>
> Plain and simple this RD was mismanged, corrupt,
> unfair and hideous to behold. Will a lawsuit
> change anything? I wish, yet there sits "Lady
> Justice" with her scales in her hand, but look!
> She's blindfolded! What does this mean? The FCSB
> obviously got to her first.


If anybody, you as a real estate agent should have known the schools are FAIRFAX county. You are probably guilty of continuing htis debate and continuing to cause this damage that you are so against - continuing with this misinformation.

And you are accusing all others of elitism - what exactly is this "we lost more equity in our homes than this market has already caused".

It seems that this became one of the major ralying battle cries that it was about economics, that's where some of the commentary about FME elitism came form - must hae been people like you. Luckily I think the majority of your neighbors are not like you, and it's only a few like you who are making it difficult for all, Pro-rd, and for your neighnbors as well, but continuing the duialogue with nons-sense points.

dud = idiot

Not a single AP or Honors course in SLHS. Oakton has a full suite. Comparable and as good as AP do not cut it. His classmates going to Oakton will graduate with college credits and a suite of AP on their applications to college. The unfortunate few from SL will be at a disadvantage four years from now.

As for your argument that SL does not have sufficient number of kids etc... that is all an excuse. Even if you had 2500 students, SL will still try to hide under the IB excuse. IB has been in SL for 7 years, how many times have the SLPTSA raised their voice to try to replace IB with AP?


SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> moment_of_silence Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Take a moment of silence and think about what
> some
> > of the students in RCMS had to go through
> today.
> > They were today confronted with the real
> results
> > of the failed RD - friendships broken, dreams
> and
> > hopes crashed with the stark reality of having
> to
> > go to SLHS with no possibility of taking
> courses
> > that their friends in Oakton and Westfield are
> > signing up for.
>
> What 9th grade courses are not offered at SL that
> are offered at Oakton and Westfield? Honors and
> SL IB courses are comparable. If what you say is
> true, does that not bolster the argument that the
> SL supporters have been making all along - that
> they do not have sufficient numbers of kids to
> offer the range of courses offered at surrounding
> schools?

Real estate dud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoJustice Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To the poster who said that the usurped
> > neighborhoods were now a part of the SL
> community:
> > No, we are not. We never were and we never will
> > be. When this whole debacle began, it would
> have
> > been acceptable that our neighborhoods were
> > redistricted IF the process was fair, balanced,
> > made sense, was transparent, if we were
> actually
> > represented by our SB member, if all schools
> were
> > affected that should have been. The SB does
> not
> > have an obligation to include its constituents
> in
> > its redistricting decisions and they made a
> grave
> > mistake in doing so for this reason: they
> exposed
> > their true intentions and those intentions are
> > disgraceful and now we all know it.
> >
> > Had they followed a fair and transparent
> process
> > there would not be so much animosity towards
> SL.
> > Yes, AP is the number one issue and many would
> > have pupil placed out for it; however, many
> more
> > will now pp out simply because such callous
> > arrogance, such blatant charges of "elitism"
> and
> > "racism", such "ownership" of our children,
> such
> > rampant disregard of families split between
> > schools, such selfish me-first, you-never, we
> want
> > you and were going to have you at all costs
> > attitudes have affected the decisions of
> parents
> > to absolutely not give in to such despicable
> > tactics. It's AP first, and secondly, it's
> > principle. We are filled with disgust at our
> > spineless SB and the attitude of "we own you"
> that
> > many at SL are displaying.
> >
> > The odd part is, you don't even recognize the
> > damage you are still doing. Keep it up and you
> > will be lucky to get 50 kids.
> >
> > And lastly, to all you mothers of young
> children
> > in FME that lobbied for the RD and now have
> your
> > way - why did you not buy property in Reston to
> > begin with? The majority of us chose FME and
> > Floris for our schools. Let me guess. You did
> not
> > purchase your own homes, your husbands did.
> You
> > do not know the value of a dollar. You did not
> > know you could get a much nicer house in Reston
> > for the same price because SL is not comparable
> to
> > Oakton. Now guess what you have done to the
> rest
> > of us who understood that we would have a
> smaller
> > home but the school of our choice? We not only
> > lost the school, we lost more equity in our
> homes
> > than this market has already caused. I know,
> I'm
> > a real estate agent and have been for years -
> > schools absolutely matter and for those of you
> who
> > don't know that you are very ill-informed or
> > hiding your heads in the sand.
> >
> > Plain and simple this RD was mismanged,
> corrupt,
> > unfair and hideous to behold. Will a lawsuit
> > change anything? I wish, yet there sits "Lady
> > Justice" with her scales in her hand, but look!
> > She's blindfolded! What does this mean? The
> FCSB
> > obviously got to her first.
>
>
> If anybody, you as a real estate agent should have
> known the schools are FAIRFAX county. You are
> probably guilty of continuing htis debate and
> continuing to cause this damage that you are so
> against - continuing with this misinformation.
>
> And you are accusing all others of elitism - what
> exactly is this "we lost more equity in our homes
> than this market has already caused".
>
> It seems that this became one of the major ralying
> battle cries that it was about economics, that's
> where some of the commentary about FME elitism
> came form - must hae been people like you.
> Luckily I think the majority of your neighbors are
> not like you, and it's only a few like you who are
> making it difficult for all, Pro-rd, and for your
> neighnbors as well, but continuing the duialogue
> with nons-sense points.


Please invest in a dictionary before posting on a public forum.

You are absolutely right. As a real estate agent I did know that I lived within the FC school boundaries. That's why I researched all possible scenarios of a redistricting and came up with the conculsion that there way no way FME would be switched to SL since Langley was (at the time) reaching critical mass, as was Madison, and that the HS I chose for my kids was more than able to handle any influx; therefore, I thought we were more than safe. And we should have been. However, the SB had their own agenda, which was not based on fairness or sense.

Because I reached the same conculsion that any reasonable person would, I purchased a home in FME. There never was a reason for us to be moved. Proximity and capacity were not a worry as other schools were closer to SL and over capacity. I didn't count on duplicity. My mistake.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dud = idiot


I guess you did not like the commentary.

> Please invest in a dictionary before posting on a
> public forum.


Must be from wrong side of tracks, probably from Reston and can't afford a dictionary or spell checker.

moment_of_silence Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not a single AP or Honors course in SLHS. Oakton
> has a full suite. Comparable and as good as AP do
> not cut it. His classmates going to Oakton will
> graduate with college credits and a suite of AP on
> their applications to college. The unfortunate few
> from SL will be at a disadvantage four years from
> now.
>
> As for your argument that SL does not have
> sufficient number of kids etc... that is all an
> excuse. Even if you had 2500 students, SL will
> still try to hide under the IB excuse. IB has been
> in SL for 7 years, how many times have the SLPTSA
> raised their voice to try to replace IB with AP?
>
>
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > moment_of_silence Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Take a moment of silence and think about what
> > some
> > > of the students in RCMS had to go through
> > today.
> > > They were today confronted with the real
> > results
> > > of the failed RD - friendships broken, dreams
> > and
> > > hopes crashed with the stark reality of
> having
> > to
> > > go to SLHS with no possibility of taking
> > courses
> > > that their friends in Oakton and Westfield
> are
> > > signing up for.
> >
> > What 9th grade courses are not offered at SL
> that
> > are offered at Oakton and Westfield? Honors
> and
> > SL IB courses are comparable. If what you say
> is
> > true, does that not bolster the argument that
> the
> > SL supporters have been making all along - that
> > they do not have sufficient numbers of kids to
> > offer the range of courses offered at
> surrounding
> > schools?

Clearly you are operating under the assumption that IB will not help your child get INTO college, when in fact most universities love the IB program. It is a crying shame that they do not yet offer equal credit for what are at least as rigorous courses. I have advocated with FCPS for years to use their clout with Universities for equal credit, but the staff person I was most closely working with developed cancer and had to retire. If FCPS cannot lobby for equal credit, I have advocated for supplementing IB with AP courses or chucking IB altogether. If the County won't stand behind it, it should be eliminated. Go back and read my posts if you don't believe me.

Having said that, high school is not for racking up credits, it is for learning how to learn and succeed. Some of you may do everything in your power to help your kids succeed, and they may not do squat. Other parents may be absolute shits, and their kids may turn out to be wonderkinds. Go figure.

wrong side of tracks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Please invest in a dictionary before posting on
> a
> > public forum.
>
>
> Must be from wrong side of tracks, probably from
> Reston and can't afford a dictionary or spell
> checker.

Typical anti-SL gratuitous insult, but why would I expect anything else. And Tina Hone said their was no prejudice against South Lakes. Go figure.

Sorry, I have nothing against SL and would send my child there if there was AP there. I cannot put him there knowing his interests would be better in an AP school. So if pupil place does not work out, I would move.

> Having said that, high school is not for racking
> up credits, it is for learning how to learn and
> succeed.

If he goes to Oakton, he would still learn AND get college credits AND maybe have a better chance to get into top college. You are going to say IB is as good, but I dont want to gamble with my child's future.

If SLHS is serious to attract mainstream families and students who can really raise the scores there, SLHS will have to revert to AP. Without AP I doubt you will attract the the very type of students and families that can help raise the school's score and shake off its old reputation.




SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> moment_of_silence Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not a single AP or Honors course in SLHS.
> Oakton
> > has a full suite. Comparable and as good as AP
> do
> > not cut it. His classmates going to Oakton will
> > graduate with college credits and a suite of AP
> on
> > their applications to college. The unfortunate
> few
> > from SL will be at a disadvantage four years
> from
> > now.
> >
> > As for your argument that SL does not have
> > sufficient number of kids etc... that is all an
> > excuse. Even if you had 2500 students, SL will
> > still try to hide under the IB excuse. IB has
> been
> > in SL for 7 years, how many times have the
> SLPTSA
> > raised their voice to try to replace IB with AP?
>
> >
> >
> > SLVerity Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > moment_of_silence Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Take a moment of silence and think about
> what
> > > some
> > > > of the students in RCMS had to go through
> > > today.
> > > > They were today confronted with the real
> > > results
> > > > of the failed RD - friendships broken,
> dreams
> > > and
> > > > hopes crashed with the stark reality of
> > having
> > > to
> > > > go to SLHS with no possibility of taking
> > > courses
> > > > that their friends in Oakton and Westfield
> > are
> > > > signing up for.
> > >
> > > What 9th grade courses are not offered at SL
> > that
> > > are offered at Oakton and Westfield? Honors
> > and
> > > SL IB courses are comparable. If what you say
> > is
> > > true, does that not bolster the argument that
> > the
> > > SL supporters have been making all along -
> that
> > > they do not have sufficient numbers of kids
> to
> > > offer the range of courses offered at
> > surrounding
> > > schools?
>
> Clearly you are operating under the assumption
> that IB will not help your child get INTO college,
> when in fact most universities love the IB
> program. It is a crying shame that they do not yet
> offer equal credit for what are at least as
> rigorous courses. I have advocated with FCPS for
> years to use their clout with Universities for
> equal credit, but the staff person I was most
> closely working with developed cancer and had to
> retire. If FCPS cannot lobby for equal credit, I
> have advocated for supplementing IB with AP
> courses or chucking IB altogether. If the County
> won't stand behind it, it should be eliminated.
> Go back and read my posts if you don't believe me.
>
>
> Having said that, high school is not for racking
> up credits, it is for learning how to learn and
> succeed. Some of you may do everything in your
> power to help your kids succeed, and they may not
> do squat. Other parents may be absolute shits,
> and their kids may turn out to be wonderkinds. Go
> figure.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have advocated with FCPS for years to use their clout with Universities for
> equal credit, but the staff person I was most closely working with developed
> cancer and had to retire.

I know this may come as a shock but FCPS has absolutely no clout with any colleges or universities, especially outside of the Dominion of Memories, and its doubtful it swings much weight in Va either.

> Having said that, high school is not for racking up credits, it is for learning > how to learn and succeed.

Why can't it be both.

SLVerity Wrote:
> Clearly you are operating under the assumption
> that IB will not help your child get INTO college,
> when in fact most universities love the IB
> program. ... I have advocated with FCPS for
> years to use their clout with Universities for
> equal credit ... If FCPS cannot lobby for equal credit, I
> have advocated for supplementing IB with AP
> courses or chucking IB altogether. If the County
> won't stand behind it, it should be eliminated. ...

-------------
Close but not quite accurate. Competitive colleges look for students doing well in the most rigorous courses available to them. Such universities therefore do appreciate students who are on track for the FULL IB Diploma - but the majority of students in IB high schools take themselves off that track by NOT being IB Diploma Candidates.

Do you really think FCPS has much "clout" with ANY college or university? Why? They don't need our graduates - they have plenty of other applicants.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truth about neen - your cause, unless you are
> willing to take credit for being a more
> ineffective communicator than you already appear
> to be, is to impugn the credibility of Neen. Of
> course you did not need me to relate this, so your
> question is really just an elliptical attempt at
> being evasive. Not very convincing.
>
> And to this end, what about responding directly to
> my post? It seems fairly clearly you grossly
> misrepresented someone's position. I am always
> curious about those that are on the receiving end
> of being intellectually shredded, and how they
> would respond, if, of course, they have any
> courage of conviction.

Quantum, you are so good. I love your posts. And I can't wait to see his response.

Yes, I am opposed to racial discrimination of all kinds, including affirmative action. I wish we had a truly color blind society. I wish racial identification was removed from every application, every form, every piece of paper in the country. Just imagine, treating everyone equally, without any regard to their race. Quite a concept. Who knows, some day it might just be a reality in the US. I live in hope.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone have any idea as to how many pupil
> placement forms SL might be sitting on? By the
> way, in contrast to redistricting, arbitrary or
> capricious conduct in denying placements to
> schools may very well leave the schools open to
> litigation risk, and one would think that the
> School Board's lawyers have advised the same. In
> any event, it would be interesting to hear a best
> guess at to the numbers at issue.

True. They cannot have different rules for students at SL than for students at other schools. SL students have the same rights in FCPS as do children at other schools, or lawsuits against unequal treatment will become a reality. FCPS knows that.

hmm? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > School Board member Kaye Kory asked this as a
> > budget question (Question #4, FY 2009, dated
> > January 23, 2008).
> > Using FCPS data for 2007:
> > Cost: AP $2.1M / IB $2.0M
> > Number of exams taken: AP 28,598 / IB 5,488
> > Students who took at least one AP exam 13,856 /
> at
> > least one IB exam 2,146
> >
> > That makes IB five to six and a half times MORE
> > expensive than AP, depending on whether you
> > measure cost per exam or cost per student.
>
> Holy Crap!!
>
> What kind of numbers are this? Let me see, what
> conclusion can we draw out of this?
>
> How about for starters, AP is more mainstream
> program.

Here we are in tough budget times, the board of supervisors refusing to give the schools any additional funds, yet NO ONE on the staff or school board says anything about this waste of money on the IB program, a non US, non mainstream, program, that the majority of parents and students don't want. What a silly waste of funds.

>>>There are NO economies of scale in IB. IBO is a non-profit business and FX is a cash cow. FX intends to advertise a increase in tax rate of maybe $.03. Might not do it but have to advertise it.

Middle years IB is almost 1 million dollars and does not exist at Robinson and Marshall nor the middle school feeders for them. Robinson has 2 IB coordinators for DIPLOMA candidates. Think about it - would you expect an Instructional Coach for every 40 students at TJ? IB is buying mercedes SUV when a dodge durango works just fine.<<<

Here's how it works. The BOS advertises the possibility of a tax increase (minus Gerry Connelly since he's running for office, so he's uncharacteristically silent on this issue). The schools have proposed cutting very popular programs, which will elicit howls from the parents and students. FCPS and the PTA are telling people to speak to the Board or they will have to cut buses to GT centers (get out those noisy GT parents), autism programs will be cut back (another group who will speak out), cuts in all the programs for Blacks (guaranteed to get the NAACP involved) and an increase in ALL class sizes (guaranteed to upset every parent and student). ALL of these groups will be lined up to testify before the BOS. They will BEG the board of supervisors to raise the tax rate so that their programs can be funded by FCPS.

Then the BOS says they have listened to the public and realize how desperately the people of the county want a tax increase so that their favorite FCPS programs can continue.

Of course if FCPS proposed cutting the administration in half, or getting rid of IB, closing half empty schools, or any of a hundred other cost cutting methods, no one would turn out to scream at the BOS for a tax increase and more money to schools. So, they don't propose those kinds of cuts.

Expect a tax rate increase of .03 cents and expect them to tell you that you aren't 'really' getting a tax increase, even if you know you are. For those of us who assessments that remained the same, or went up, we will most definitely be facing a tax increase. Also expect them to tell you that the HAD to raise taxes, the people demanded it. Watch Connelly vote against it, with an impassioned speech, knowing full well that it will pass, 9 to 3.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > Clearly you are operating under the assumption
> > that IB will not help your child get INTO
> college,
> > when in fact most universities love the IB
> > program. ... I have advocated with FCPS for
> > years to use their clout with Universities for
> > equal credit ... If FCPS cannot lobby for equal
> credit, I
> > have advocated for supplementing IB with AP
> > courses or chucking IB altogether. If the
> County
> > won't stand behind it, it should be eliminated.
> ...
>
> -------------
> Close but not quite accurate. Competitive colleges
> look for students doing well in the most rigorous
> courses available to them. Such universities
> therefore do appreciate students who are on track
> for the FULL IB Diploma - but the majority of
> students in IB high schools take themselves off
> that track by NOT being IB Diploma Candidates.
>
> Do you really think FCPS has much "clout" with ANY
> college or university? Why? They don't need our
> graduates - they have plenty of other applicants.

It's too funny! Why would any college care what FCPS staff thinks about IB?! As if our one county can effect how every college admission offices thinks. Hundreds of FCPS PR people convincing every college to see things their way. So taxpayers not only have to pay 5 times as much for this silly program, they have to pay for more PR people to try to sell it to colleges across the country and force them to see it their way. It couldn't possibly be that FCPS is wrong to force so many students into this very expensive program they don't want, and loony libs who love this European program couldn't possibly be wrong, it's just that FCPS needs to force all the American colleges to see it their way, and force them to give credit for the silly program, by sending out hundreds of the FCPS PR team to convince them.

Yeah, that will work. Waste even more money on this program that so few want. Yeah, that's the ticket. Hahahaha........AS IF.......lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 02:43AM by Neen.

Tell the SB and BOS to delay the unneeded SCMS implementation past 2012 and to use the empty seats at Lake Braddock. That would save quite a few pennies for the FCPS budget.

SLVerity

Two things
> Having said that, high school is not for racking
> up credits, it is for learning how to learn and
> succeed.

This is an idealistic view from 20000 miles above. Can we come to ground level and think a bit rationally please. Why can't they have both, knowledge as well as a few credits under their belt.

>Some of you may do everything in your power to help your kids succeed, and they may not do squat. Other parents may be absolute shits, and their kids may turn out to be wonderkinds.

As far as my children go, I will do my duty and do everything in my power for them to succeed. The rest all is in God's hand. But to think that they have their own destiny so I am not going to do anything for them is not a way to raise kids, is it?

"
> Had they followed a fair and transparent process
> there would not be so much animosity towards SL.
> Yes, AP is the number one issue and many would
> have pupil placed out for it; however, many more
> will now pp out simply because such callous
> arrogance, such blatant charges of "elitism" and
> "racism", such "ownership" of our children, such
> rampant disregard of families split between
> schools, such selfish me-first, you-never, we want
> you and were going to have you at all costs
> attitudes have affected the decisions of parents
> to absolutely not give in to such despicable
> tactics. It's AP first, and secondly, it's
> principle. We are filled with disgust at our
> spineless SB and the attitude of "we own you" that
> many at SL are displaying.
"

Well said!

FYI, pupil-placement seems to be going smoothly for those Navy's looking to place from Oakton back to Chantilly. Both principals signed off on my kid's form and it is at the cluster office. Hope it doesn't get cluster-you-know-what'ed.

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FYI, pupil-placement seems to be going smoothly
> for those Navy's looking to place from Oakton back
> to Chantilly. Both principals signed off on my
> kid's form and it is at the cluster office. Hope
> it doesn't get cluster-you-know-what'ed.



What were your circumstances / reasons used?

Another Navy Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> navy parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FYI, pupil-placement seems to be going smoothly
> > for those Navy's looking to place from Oakton
> back
> > to Chantilly. Both principals signed off on my
> > kid's form and it is at the cluster office.
> Hope
> > it doesn't get cluster-you-know-what'ed.
>
>
>
> What were your circumstances / reasons used?

The entire Navy community should write to the school board and the board of supervisors about the budget and the CIP. Want to have a tax rate increase this year and following years to fund the NEW South County Middle School when you are going /assigned to Oakton instead of Chantilly?

In fall 2006 they cancelled any change to Lake Braddock which is closer to Bradsher's Silverbrookers than you are to Oakton. Her amendment and speech was bullshit.

Not a single school board member proposed a plan or amendment that moved areas roughly between Chantilly and Westfield to move.

Those schools include areas at Poplar Tree/Brookfield/Lees Corner that access streets other than Stringfellow.

If I remember right, last year 40 + students pupil placed into SL for IB and 40 + pupil placed out of SL for AP. So it was a wash.

The preliminary indications are 100 + last years 40 (assuming there is no change in Reston numbers) will pupil place out for AP from SL this year.

How does that look on paper? Will that create a bad impression in parent's mind?

Just curious.