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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:01AM

>>>In the end SLHS will in one way or another come to grips with the fact that there is a cause and effect between curriculum, excellence and population - and that is neither a bad thing nor a good thing - it is what it is - and it certainly would be healthy for that institution to evaluate whether more students comports with its chosen identity - it may indeed not - even if there is a primordial instinct to fill a glitzy new structure<<<<

Not really. In the case of South Lakes there will be no such conclusions drawn. They will simply attempt to force students to attend. Problem solved without having to do all that heavy duty thinking, or worse, changing. They BELIEVE in IB. If they can just force enough students to attend South Lakes, they too will become BELIEVERS.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: There you go again... ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:04AM

...Neen, mocking a SL student. I would wager that SL and many other high schools in FCPS might actually offer a better education than TJ for one who wants to study subjects other than math and science. In addition, a very bright student will make of their education what they wish. TJ is not for everyone, even the brightest of students.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:14AM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With all this talk about AP vs IB at South Lakes
> and whether SL will change from IB to AP, the
> problem I am seeing is this: South Lakes is the
> only IB high school in the west county. Which
> high school is the nearest IB high school if SL
> converts back to full AP? This is why this is
> very difficult thinking RD is the easiest solution
> for SL when it really is not the smartest
> solution. What if there are students out in the
> west county who want to participate in the IB
> program if SL converts to AP?

Good point, one that I am sure Stu will use in his arguments against AP at South Lakes. Each consortium MUST offer IB and SL is the only school in that end of the county that has it.

There is NO way that Stu, or staff, will support a change to AP at South Lakes. Why would they? It would be a pain for them to make such a change. Why bother when they can force students to go to South Lakes? Of course they won't be able to force many students to go, but that's not really anything for staff to worry about. It makes their job easier, and what bureaucracy isn't looking for that?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SapphicHokieMom ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:25AM

I have been watching the SB meeting on and off this evening and could use some help understanding the argument from communities like Chantilly Highlands and Fox Mill regarding the implied destruction of childhood friendships. Nothing that I hear indicates that a wall or other barrier will be built in these communities, so how do RD options 2 and 3 prevent kids from riding bikes to Subway, going to the community pool or playing on the same baseball team? These neighborhoods remain physically intact, so what's the big deal? If anything, I would think that these plans create opportunities for new friendships. How is this different from the kids in my neighborhood who attend PVI or TJ? They seem to get along just fine.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:25AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
> ... several continue to insist that IB "only
> benefits a small percent" of students, to
> paraphrase. This is just a bunch of baloney. These
> people blatantly ignore the fact that IB is not
> the diploma. IB is used as a catch-all term for a
> school that offers the set of IB courses that the
> IB program requires, as "AP schools" are those
> that offer the full array of AP courses that FCPS
> requires for its full programming at these
> schools. Most IB "schools" also offer the Middle
> Years IB Program, which is basically a set of
> honors courses like those offered at AP schools
> and begins preparing kids for the way IB
> approaches its subject (analytical thinking and
> writing, mainly). Honors courses at AP schools do
> the same thing for AP courses (Honors English,
> honors Chemistry, etc.) They are more rigorous
> than general ed courses so kids are prepared for
> the rigors of AP. ... most of those speaking tonight
> couldn't tell you the first difference between an
> AP and IB syllabus.

To your last point first: you should try harder to avoid insulting your neighbors. Many of us HAVE studied the differences between AP and IB, and more are learning about it because of this RD mess.

To quote the IBO's own literature,"The International Baccalaureate Organization’s Diploma Programme (DP), created in 1968, is a demanding pre-university course of study ...The programme is a comprehensive two-year international curriculum....The programme has the strengths of a traditional liberal arts curriculum." As has been discussed in painful detail, the focus of the entire IB Programme is to produce IB Diploma Graduates, who make up about 5-7% of all students in FCPS IB schools. It is an excellent programme - for THEM.

But what about the other 95% or so of the students in an IB school?

"Diploma Programme ... Schools shall formally agree to bind themselves to full acceptance of all IBO requirements encompassing the effective conduct of the DIPLOMA Programme .... Schools will appoint a Diploma Programme coordinator AND a CAS coordinator. ... The programmes of the IBO should not be marginal in IB World Schools; it is expected that they will positively influence those sections of a school not following an IB programme" [emphasis added]. Thus EVERY student is to be "influenced" by this IB liberal arts programme, whether or not they choose to be in it.

A suggestion: Offer ALL all ninth and tenth graders in ALL FCPS base high schools the opportunity to take "honors" courses, and offer AP World Civ as the SOL replacement for tenth graders who want to try it.

For upper classmen, offer the AP curriculum in ALL FCPS high schools, and offer the IB "comprehensive two-year international curriculum," either as a magnet or as an academy programme, to those juniors and seniors who are interested in the full IB Diploma.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:25AM

TJ Shales said:
>>>Why should South Lakes switch to an inferior AP program just to appease a few incoming families who have bought into the College Board's mantra? (Ha! Your turn to use facts to convince ME AP is superior!) Go ahead and pupil-place out without giving IB a fair shot - and you haven't. "Targeted family opinions" don't count. Nobody's stopping you.<<<

Why shouldn't parents have the program that they want in their public school? Why can't the minority who want IB pupil place their children? Or go to private school. Surely there must be a good private school that offers IB. Isn't there?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:26AM

There you go again... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...Neen, mocking a SL student. I would wager that
> SL and many other high schools in FCPS might
> actually offer a better education than TJ for one
> who wants to study subjects other than math and
> science. In addition, a very bright student will
> make of their education what they wish. TJ is not
> for everyone, even the brightest of students.


This student wants to be an engineer. South Lakes and the IB program is offering exactly what s/he needs, especially the math.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:37AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Here's the difference. Now pay attention. Nobody
> at South Lakes is castigating AP or Oakton. Nobody
> is purporting to know every detail about AP if
> they haven't experienced it (though most South
> Lakes supporters have an excellent, in-depth
> understanding of AP, partly because they have
> experienced it themselves, or one of their kids
> has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and
> unavoidable, and because South Lakes families have
> very close friends all across the "boundary" lines
> etc.) But we are not denigrating AP and we are not
> trying to sell untruths as truths about it. We are
> not bashing Oakton. We are not making comparisions
> that try to force AP into submission.
>
> Finally, all of the kids I know would absolutely
> THRIVE with AP. They are thriving with IB. Kids
> who do well with one will do well with another.
> Have faith in your children. They are the ones who
> need to know you do.
>
> BTW, did you happen to hear the lengthy pregnant
> silence at last night's CAPS meeting when someone
> asked if South Lakes were AP would they go? Yes?
> And that someone else said the problem was really
> Hughes? Then you know what REALLY underlies this
> opposition. It has nothing to do with IB.

OH? What does it have to do with? Hughes is the problem? Please tell everyone exactly what their problem is. Why is it that all those Asian families who spoke at the hearings don't want to go to South Lakes? Please, tell everyone what the REAL reason is.

Thanks.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:40AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There you go again... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...Neen, mocking a SL student. I would wager
> that
> > SL and many other high schools in FCPS might
> > actually offer a better education than TJ for
> one
> > who wants to study subjects other than math and
> > science. In addition, a very bright student
> will
> > make of their education what they wish. TJ is
> not
> > for everyone, even the brightest of students.
>
>
> This student wants to be an engineer. South Lakes
> and the IB program is offering exactly what s/he
> needs, especially the math.


And she couldn't maintain the necessary 3.0 at TJ? That's ok. Many people aren't willing to do the work necessary to remain at TJ, or they just don't want to, or they don't have the background or ability to do well at TJ. It's not a school where everyone can excel. Some kids can't handle it, or a variety of reasons. Nothing to be ashamed of.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:51AM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You're too funny. Edwatch is a libertarian
> group
> > that advocates for vouchers. It is against
> public
> > schools of all kinds. Think it might have an
> > agenda?
>
>
> Hey, Neen wants vouchers too! Could she be
> libertarian? Now it all makes sense.

Yes, I believe in school choice. Parents should decide where their children go to school, not the government. Let public schools compete. If they provide what people want, the children will go to their schools. Competition improves all things.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:52AM

Perspective Wrote:
> ... Forum Reader, because you have an anti-IB agenda.
> ... Forum Reader, you continue to tell parents that AP
> and IB can't coexist, even though they do at
> schools all over the Country and even at Robinson ...
>
-----------------

As of 30 Sep 07 there were 51,147 students in FCPS high schools. Only 1,805, just three and a half percent, were in one unique program. This special program is NOT FOR EVERYONE but is a great experience for that small number of students in ...

Jefferson.

Does that in any way imply I am against TJ? Of course not. Similarly, I AM NOT AGAINST IB. As I posted again only a few minutes ago, it is an excellent programme - for the 5-7% who earn the full IB Diploma.

Robinson, quite possibly the largest IB school in the world, does NOT have a full AP curriculum. It has only six AP courses. No AP foreign language, no AP science, no AP BC Calculus.

Some other jurisdictions, including George Mason HS in Falls Church and Washington Lee in Arlington, DO have both IB and AP in the same school The difference: compare the FY 2008 cost per pupil:
Arlington County $18,563
Falls Church City $18,474
Fairfax County $13,407

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:20AM

Neen - I actually think that SLHS cannot force students to attend the school - at least if materially greater numbers is the objective. One cannot (as I think is the case) posit that there is an exodus of students from the grade school years to the high school years there - and the reasons why have been discussed here - and somehow believe that this circumstance will change with a forced march - in fact, it will likely increase, unless SLHS high school takes positive, market oriented steps. So in the end the competition to attract students will continue well beyond any redistricting vote. And the IB program, whatever its merits, will be part of that process - and irrespective of whether current supporters want to believe it or not, a vote for IB will mean that it will be a smaller school - again, not a bad thing - unless the agenda really is to overshadow negative test scores through importation of additional students.

As far as dropping out of TJ goes, there are a number of reasons that kids do so, among them that it is too stressful. Not sure that is such a bad thing - it is an individual choice, and some people just don't feel comfortable at that level of intensity. Bear in mind also that there is a 3.0 gpa cut-off now, so some are going to be on a forced march back to their base school - something that likely should have been considered before placing undue emphasis on increasing affirmative action admits (but consistent with the haphazard way the County approaches matters). Also bear in mind that in our increasingly feminized, feel good schools, competition (which especially motivates boys) is often anathema and the transition to a school of hyper-competitive wolves such as is the case with TJ isn't easy for everyone. And we don't generally value mental toughness and self reliance as much as we used to - feeling good and having nice self-esteem are paramount - and this again to the detriment of students placed in challenging situations. So I would proffer that is important to be fair in reference to why people do not complete their studies at TJ - and indeed, the educational experience is better for some at their base schools.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:33AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perspective Wrote:
> > ... Forum Reader, because you have an anti-IB
> agenda.
> > ... Forum Reader, you continue to tell parents
> that AP
> > and IB can't coexist, even though they do at
> > schools all over the Country and even at
> Robinson ...
> >
> -----------------
>
> As of 30 Sep 07 there were 51,147 students in FCPS
> high schools. Only 1,805, just three and a half
> percent, were in one unique program. This special
> program is NOT FOR EVERYONE but is a great
> experience for that small number of students in
> ...
>
> Jefferson.
>
> Does that in any way imply I am against TJ? Of
> course not. Similarly, I AM NOT AGAINST IB. As I
> posted again only a few minutes ago, it is an
> excellent programme - for the 5-7% who earn the
> full IB Diploma.
>
> Robinson, quite possibly the largest IB school in
> the world, does NOT have a full AP curriculum. It
> has only six AP courses. No AP foreign language,
> no AP science, no AP BC Calculus.
>
> Some other jurisdictions, including George Mason
> HS in Falls Church and Washington Lee in
> Arlington, DO have both IB and AP in the same
> school The difference: compare the FY 2008 cost
> per pupil:
> Arlington County $18,563
> Falls Church City $18,474
> Fairfax County $13,407

Since we know that SL gets extra funding as a small school, and additional extra funding for IB, I wonder what the per pupil spending is at South Lakes compared to Oakton, Madison, and the other schools in the redistricting? How much more is IB costing FCPS? I guess it doesn't matter, but it is interesting, particularly when the school board is urging all of us to tell the board of supervisors how desperately they need more money. How much money could FCPS save by having only one or two IB schools?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:43AM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen - I actually think that SLHS cannot force
> students to attend the school - at least if
> materially greater numbers is the objective. One
> cannot (as I think is the case) posit that there
> is an exodus of students from the grade school
> years to the high school years there - and the
> reasons why have been discussed here - and somehow
> believe that this circumstance will change with a
> forced march - in fact, it will likely increase,
> unless SLHS high school takes positive, market
> oriented steps. So in the end the competition to
> attract students will continue well beyond any
> redistricting vote. And the IB program, whatever
> its merits, will be part of that process - and
> irrespective of whether current supporters want to
> believe it or not, a vote for IB will mean that it
> will be a smaller school - again, not a bad thing
> - unless the agenda really is to overshadow
> negative test scores through importation of
> additional students.
>
> As far as dropping out of TJ goes, there are a
> number of reasons that kids do so, among them that
> it is too stressful. Not sure that is such a bad
> thing - it is an individual choice, and some
> people just don't feel comfortable at that level
> of intensity. Bear in mind also that there is a
> 3.0 gpa cut-off now, so some are going to be on a
> forced march back to their base school - something
> that likely should have been considered before
> placing undue emphasis on increasing affirmative
> action admits (but consistent with the haphazard
> way the County approaches matters). Also bear in
> mind that in our increasingly feminized, feel good
> schools, competition (which especially motivates
> boys) is often anathema and the transition to a
> school of hyper-competitive wolves such as is the
> case with TJ isn't easy for everyone. And we
> don't generally value mental toughness and self
> reliance as much as we used to - feeling good and
> having nice self-esteem are paramount - and this
> again to the detriment of students placed in
> challenging situations. So I would proffer that
> is important to be fair in reference to why people
> do not complete their studies at TJ - and indeed,
> the educational experience is better for some at
> their base schools.

Another great post. Thank you. Your points are well taken and well said. I agree that the forced march won't work. South Lakes will remain a small school, not that there is anything wrong with that. Will anyone in FCPS care that students go elsewhere? I doubt it. They have no incentive to care.

I will be interested in seeing how TJ enforces the 3.0 GPA rule. I would guess that it will enforced rather haphazardly, not applied to minorities and less likely to be applied to girls. Girls will be permitted to stay for 'social reasons', if they want to remain at TJ. Minorities will be permitted to stay for the obvious reasons, unless they are among the 'over represented' minorities. Overall, I suspect that very few students will be asked to leave, and even fewer forced to leave. If that is not the case, then staff needs to re examine their selection process.

As you probably know there are one or two IBETs that scare kids in freshman year and one hears rumblings of exodus from TJ. But they don't leave, and once they make it to sophomore year, most are fine.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:45AM

Neen Wrote:
> ... How much more is IB
> costing FCPS? I guess it doesn't matter, but it
> is interesting, particularly when the school board
> is urging all of us to tell the board of
> supervisors how desperately they need more money.
> How much money could FCPS save by having only one
> or two IB schools?

I don't think I have replied to you before. Maybe I am scared because you are reportedly "mean and horrible," but nobody seems to paying any attention to us tonight except the talented writer "quantum".

So please allow me to emphasize that tidbit from the IBO: "Diploma Programme ... Schools shall formally agree to bind themselves to full acceptance of all IBO requirements encompassing the effective conduct of the DIPLOMA Programme .... Schools will appoint a Diploma Programme coordinator AND a CAS coordinator."

That is TWO full-time administrators in each of EIGHT schools JUST to track the IB DIPLOMA CANDIDATES, or about a million and a half per year. We can save a quick million by reducing this program to just a couple of sites.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:05AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> republic: a political system or form of government in which people elect
> representatives to exercise power for them

"republic" derives from the Latin "res", thing and "publica" pubic: the thing done in public or thing belonging to the public. Thus, a republic is a government conducted in the open and not behind closed doors (in the monarch's private chambers) or a government belong to the the people (as opposed to, e.g., a monarchy), which results in "republic" being a perfect synonym of "democracy".

"Republic" has nothing to do with whether a democracy is a direct democracy (think New England town meeting) or a representative democracy (Congress).

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:18AM

Don't we also pay a great deal more for the tests? And the teacher training?

Have you heard about the, ever more fuzzy math program, that was apparently chose with a textbook committee. I'm assuming that strategic governance, has eliminated textbook committee meetings.

Here's a little summary of this goofy math that our teachers are learning to teach to our elementary kids.

>>>>>The Investigations curriculum embodies a different approach from the traditional textbook-based curriculum. It is designed to invite all students into mathematics--girls and boys, diverse cultural, ethnic, and language groups, and students with different strengths and interests. Problem contexts often call on students to share experiences from their families, culture, or community. The following aspects of the curriculum ensure that all students are included in significant mathematical learning.

Students:

* spend more time exploring problems in depth
* find more than one solution to many problems they work on
* invent their own strategies and approaches, rather than relying on memorized procedures
* choose from a variety of concrete materials and appropriate technology, including calculators as a natural part of their everyday mathematical work
* express their mathematical thinking through drawing, writing, and talking
* work in a variety of groupings such as a whole class, individually, in pairs, and in small groups
* move around in the classroom as they explore the mathematics in their environment and talk with their peers

Investigations in Number, Data and Space looks and feels quite different from a traditional mathematics program. The curriculum at each grade level is organized into units. Each unit offers two to eight weeks of mathematics work on topics in number, data analysis, and geometry and consists of a series of investigations that involve students in the exploration of major mathematical ideas. Because of the many interconnections among mathematical ideas, units may revolve around two or three related areas—for example, addition and subtraction or geometry and fractions.

At each grade level, the curriculum is presented through a series of teacher books, one for each of the units of study. Each curriculum unit provides lesson plans, materials lists, reproducible student sheets for activities and games, a family letter, homework suggestions, opportunities for skill and practice, assessment activities, notes to the teacher about the mathematics students are encountering, and examples of classroom dialogues. Some units include software especially designed for Investigations to extend students' experience with the mathematics being explored. In addition to the curriculum units, Student Activity Books and Investigations at Home Booklets are also available for each unit.

For detailed information about this curriculum, go to the satellite site Investigations in Number, Data, and Space.

http://www.comap.com/elementary/projects/arc/curricul.htm5

I wonder how much this new flakely math books, and the teacher training, cost us this year? And I wonder how much money parents will need to spend in math tutors and math summr camp?

Parents discussion in PWC:
http://www.pwcteachmathright.com/

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:21AM

SapphicHokieMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been watching the SB meeting on and off
> this evening and could use some help understanding
> the argument from communities like Chantilly
> Highlands and Fox Mill regarding the implied
> destruction of childhood friendships. Nothing
> that I hear indicates that a wall or other barrier
> will be built in these communities, so how do RD
> options 2 and 3 prevent kids from riding bikes to
> Subway, going to the community pool or playing on
> the same baseball team? These neighborhoods
> remain physically intact, so what's the big deal?
> If anything, I would think that these plans create
> opportunities for new friendships. How is this
> different from the kids in my neighborhood who
> attend PVI or TJ? They seem to get along just
> fine.

Seriously?

You can't be denying that relationships that are re-enforced by daily contact are generally more enriching and rewarding than friendships that do not have that quality. Not to suggest that this should determine the outcome of this process but could we at least acknowledge that element of human socialization.

The kids in my neighborhood who didn't go to the neighborhood school were not generally as plug into the happenings and experiences of the kids going to the neighborhood school. They were different. Not an insuperable separation but a separation none the less.

As their lives have gone on, those kids drifted away from the neighborhood kids. Hopefully, other friends from their school, boy scouts or sports teams filled.

So this desire to keep neighbors together is a legitimate, though not dispositive, value.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:48AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's as close to an IB course as is possible. They already have a full
> compliment of IB courses. Why would they need another one?
>
> According to SL's folks, the principal let staff decide what THEY wanted to
> teach and they choose Human Geography.

Can some of Bruce's fans please explain him letting the staff decide which course to offer? This looks really weak.

There is a parallel IB course. He said he wouldn't add AP courses that were redundant of an IB class

> A MUCH better choice would have been AP calculus. People have mentioned wanting
> that course.

AP Calculus BC made the most sense. Why wasn't that AP course offered?

> Even US Government would have been preferable. I hear that parents at South
> Lakes are asking for that course but it hasn't been decided if it will be
> offered.

It was offerred. Don't know how many signed up for it. One problem is that most kids at SL took pre-IB Government as sophomores. So very few juniors or seniors are going to take this course. Thus, it's appeal will be limited to sophomores. I can see this resulting in low enrollment, the course being cancelled and the argument being advance, "we offered AP courses but no one signed up"

> Of more concern is the principal giving staff the choice of what they want to
> teach. That should be HIS decision, based on the needs and wants of parents and > students. He should be assigning staff to courses, not staff telling
> HIM what they feel like teaching. But I understand that Butler's MO.

Isn't this the problem with the entire FCPS, the employees tell the SB, taxpayers and parents what to do?



Do we know how many kids have signed up for Human Geography, registration happened last week

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:17AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you know that a Senior I know got a 740 this
> year on the US History SAT II having complete IB
> History of the Americas last year? Not only did he
> cover allthe US history he needed for that exam
> (except for two hours' of nuggets in the SAT II
> review book), he covered it in context with the
> rest of this hemisphere of which we are
> inextricably a part. He can tell you how slavery
> in Latin America affected decisionmaking here in
> the 1850s. He can tell you how the civil wars in
> Brazil and the US were similar and different, and
> about the nature of civil wars themselves. He can
> tell you, say, whether he thinks the war in Iraq
> is or isn't a civil war and he could weigh what
> our leaders are telling us when they ask for
> support for their foreign policies. He voted for
> the first time last week, and he was better
> informed than most adults I know. Go figure.

What can he tell us about US history after 1865, the year that HOA ends?

There's a gap in the IB history cycle. 1865-1900 US history is mostly missing. This is the period of the 1876 eletion fix (kind of like 2000) and the failure of reconstruction which gave us the KKK and the American version of apartheid. This is the period of the Robber Barons (kind of like Bill Gates). This is the period of the anarchists (kind of like the Taliban). This is the period of Wm. Jennings Bryan, the gold standard and the agrarian populists.

Few IB kids I've talked to understand this period, the issues that rose during that time and their parallels that they have to today.

Senior year, IB kids take 20th Century Issues where they learn all about colonialism and little about the civil rights era. All about communism and little about McCarthyism. All about WW II, from a European perspective, and little about the war in the Pacific. The title should really be European 20th Century Issues.

This anecdote is about one exceptional kid is admirable but not persuasive in view of the deficiencies in the IB history cycle described above.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:53AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Solution: Send 700+ more kids to South Lakes and

And SL will be overenrolled by 2-300 kids and will need trailers while other HS are under enrolled. SL only needs 2-300 kids.

> it will have enough students to consider add-on classes that don't conflict with > existing IB classes. AP US Government might be one of them.

AP Government was offered in this years course catalog for the 2008-9 school. For reason already described above, I don't expect many to sign up for AP Government.

> AP English isn't needed; IB and MYIB English classes are outstanding and teach
> kids to read, analyze, and write.

SL English department doesn't believe in grammar or vocabulary instruction. It's really a literature department which is fine if it were a liberal arts college but it's a high school and because it's current students were victims of the "whole language" fiasco, they haven't learned the eight parts of speech and their proper use. I've seen writing samples from IB students and they have many of the grammatical errors common to "whole language" victims.

> AP BC Calc isn't needed. IB HL Math -- the two year course that basically is AP
> pre-calc/calc combined -- contains all the BC calculus (with the calculus unit
> that most teachers adopt.)

That not what other engineers have written on this fourm and its not what a former SL math teacher told be before he left and gave as one of the reasons for leaving SL: IB HL Math was a disservice to the math students.

> And guess what, Scientists and Engineers and Physicists and Mathematicians need > to know how to write!!!

And they don't learn how to write at SL or at most other FCPS because they've been taught "whole language."

> I work with them all, every day. Those that can't write are left behind because > they can't produce today's deliverables (written reports and recommendations) or > contribute to earning their bread via proposal writing.

So you're the company salesperson and the other folks do the real engineering. Congratulations. The fancy report with the colorful cover is nice but those of us who pay the bills skip over the pr and flip to the back where the real work is found.

> Read Albert Einstein's book, "Relativity: The Special and General Theory--A
> Clear Explanation that Anyone Can Understand." His theories did not gain
> support because he was a genius. They gained acclaim because he could explain
> them.

No Einstein's theories gained acceptance because other scientists ran experiments which validated his theories.

Science isn't pr. If the experiments cannot be reproduced by other scientists the results will be rejected.

> The issue of what AP courses to add to an IB curriculum is a discussion that can > only be had when people who are wedded to AP fully understand IB. That isn't
> happening yet. (For example, some folks writing recently think the term "paper" > in IB means -- a traditional written wordy paper. It means "exam.")

Nice try at disqualifying everybody but you and the other IB advocates from the conversation. I've lived with IB for 7 years at SL. In addition to the problems of late test results, college credits mstly limited to 2 yr HL courses,it diverts limited resources disproportionately to a small fraction of the kids at SL.

> I believe many who are opposed to going to South Lakes for any reason are using > the AP/IB argument as the latest rock to throw but aren't genuinely interested
> in understanding IB or weighing curriculum options. Not all, but many. Hard to
> tell the difference.

My family has been stuck with SL for 12 years and IB for 7. Its time to return to AP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 05:05AM

Where Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or another 60 millon addition?

It wasn't an addition. Space was actually reduced by 50 kids. It was a renovation. How many times has that been written on this forum. Sheesh.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 05:16AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > A MUCH better choice would have
> > > been AP calculus. People have mentioned
> > wanting
> > > that course.
> >
> > Of course we'd want it, but as long as SL is an
> IB
> > school, the problem with offering AP Calc is
> that
> > they MUST offer SL and HL Math. (SL for the
> > Diploma candidates who can't hack HL, and HL
> for
> > those who can.)
>
>
> The above is a clear example of the type of
> willful ignorance that I have mentioned. Using IB
> Diploma populations as stand-ins for the whole IB
> enchilada is willful ignorance if not worse. The
> Diploma is pursued by a small percentage,
> equivalent to the FCPS AP Diploma that has strict
> requirements. Second, this person is suggesting
> that SL and HL are only for diploma candidates.
> This is totally false, but it is idiotic of me to
> say so, since this person is anti-South Lakes and
> nothing, not the truth nor the facts nor data,
> will move him. By repeating falsehoods, he spreads
> lies to everyone else. It is a shibboleth. It is
> ignoble and unworthy of a vaunted Westfield
> education.

That not what was written. Because the IB diploma program requires certain courses must be offerred at an IB school SL must offer IB Math SL and HL. Of course non diploma candidates can take these classes. Anyone following this forum for even a few pages knows that.

The problem is preemption. If IB Math SL or HL is duplicative of AP Calculus BC (which I do not believe it is but you seem to disagree), then AP Calculus BC cannot be offered at SL while it is an FCPS IB school.

That's the problem.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 05:30AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And nobody seems to be able to
> explain why the beasts at South Lakes don't leave
> once they get there and get to know IB. They leave
> before they give it a shot. Not once they learn to
> love it.

"Resistance is futile, you will be absorbed" Not really, these kids just drop the IB classes and then take the regular courses.

Real IB SL and HL courses don't happen until junior year. By then the social implications of changing high schools overwhelm the curriculum issues. Look at the angst of the kids from Fox Mill and Floris already at Oakton and Westfield. It is this phenomenon that will prompt the SB to grandfather those kids.

But kids who drop IB diploma or the IB history cycle, have to take freshman World History senior year. There were so many at Robinson this year, they have two full classes of seniors taking that freshman class.

Intersting to see how many SL seniors are taking freshman World History.

> It is really, really tiresome to try to discuss IB with people who hate it,
> sight unseen. Tiresome.

Not nearly as tiresome as scrolling through your posts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2008 06:25AM by Thomas More.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 06:24AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am totally appalled at what our school board is doing, right now, on channel
> 21. This is supposed to be a PUBLIC HEARING, yet they are only allowing certain > members of the community to speak and, worse, they are are limiting what they
> can address! They cannot speak about their school, what they want for their
> children, or how they feel about redistricting! They are being cut off,
> literally, by the school board and then by their microphones! This is
> horrible. This school board doesn't give a rat's butt about these minority
> people who are trying to tell them how they feel and what they want! Brad,
> Janie, and the Chair, Dan Storck, have all told these ESOL people to stop
> talking about South Lakes and redistricting. SHAME on them! This isn't a
> public hearing!
>
> Just when we think our school board can't be any more arrogant, they sink to a
> lower level. SHAME ON THEM!

Is it time to eliminate the elected school board?

Isn't there a petition process to go back to appointed school boards?

Time to start circulating that petition?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 20, 2008 06:40AM

Washington International School in DC has IB. Perhaps others. And Fairfax County residents have paid tuition to send their children to the well-regarded George Mason HS IB program in the City of Falls Church.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Surely there must be a
> good private school that offers IB. Isn't there?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 20, 2008 06:40AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> > ... How much more is IB
> > costing FCPS? I guess it doesn't matter, but
> it
> > is interesting, particularly when the school
> board
> > is urging all of us to tell the board of
> > supervisors how desperately they need more
> money.
> > How much money could FCPS save by having only
> one
> > or two IB schools?
>
> I don't think I have replied to you before. Maybe
> I am scared because you are reportedly "mean and
> horrible," but nobody seems to paying any
> attention to us tonight except the talented writer
> "quantum".
>
> So please allow me to emphasize that tidbit from
> the IBO: "Diploma Programme ... Schools shall
> formally agree to bind themselves to full
> acceptance of all IBO requirements encompassing
> the effective conduct of the DIPLOMA Programme
> .... Schools will appoint a Diploma Programme
> coordinator AND a CAS coordinator."
>
> That is TWO full-time administrators in each of
> EIGHT schools JUST to track the IB DIPLOMA
> CANDIDATES, or about a million and a half per
> year. We can save a quick million by reducing this
> program to just a couple of sites.


Just FYI, the CAS coordinator also teaches, at least at Stuart.

Also, FR, wanted to address the choices you gave earlier in terms of how to offer IB. One of the options was the Academy where you said the student would take 5 IB classes at SL. That won't work. The academy courses are one subject, and many essentially take 2-3 blocks/periods. Students lose one per day due to transportation. So for example if their academy course was Culinary arts, they would have first block at their base school, take the bus to the academy school, have a block there, and return back to base school. Depending on what "shift" their academy class is they might arrive back to their base school during lunch, or they might arrive a little late to their next class at their base school.

If they were taking 5 classes at SL, their base school would effectively become the academy school. And again, usually they lose a block.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 20, 2008 07:29AM

This is the first year under the new TJ regulation that allows TJ to send students back to their base schools if they have less than a 3.0 GPA. TJ parents have been told that about 1% of the TJ students fall into this category.

I would not assume that TJ girls are more likely than boys to have low grades. TJ girls are less likely than TJ boys to be found in the toughest math and science classes, but with rare exceptions they do the homework for whatever classes they take. And in my experience, TJ girls generally are less willing than TJ boys to risk taking a course where they aren't sure they can get an A.

Guidance meets with those students every quarter, to help them figure out why their grades are low and to suggest ways they can improve their grades. If the student's grades stay low for 4 quarters, the Cluster 3 director (Cecy Krill) will participate in meeting where FCPS decides whether the student must leave TJ. It remains to be seen whether Cecy Krill's support for racial diversity at TJ will influence decisions about which students are told to leave TJ.

Neen wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > As far as dropping out of TJ goes, there are a
> > number of reasons that kids do so, among them
> > that it is too stressful.
> > Bear in mind also that there is a 3.0 gpa
> > cut-off now, so some are going to be on a
> > forced march back to their base school -
> > something that likely should have been
> > considered before placing undue emphasis on
> > increasing affirmative action admits
> >
> I will be interested in seeing how TJ enforces the
> 3.0 GPA rule. I would guess that it will enforced
> rather haphazardly, not applied to minorities and
> less likely to be applied to girls. Girls will be
> permitted to stay for 'social reasons', if they
> want to remain at TJ. Minorities will be
> permitted to stay for the obvious reasons, unless
> they are among the 'over represented' minorities.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: February 20, 2008 07:45AM

After watching the channel 21 broadcast last night, it appears the the master plan of Stu and Kathy is moving on along as planned. It should have been clear to all that new options 2 and 3 were "never" going to fly. It seems like both Stu and Kathy created plans that pretty much compromised most of the major objectives in the study, including keeping neighborhoods together, reduced split feeders, elimination of islands, reduced commutes etc etc.

By limiting who could speak to the proposal's on the table, and what could be said regarding the RD at the hearing last night, it was clear that the families in Chantilly Highlands and Fox Mill would be out in full force, to denounce the 2 new plans. (I wonder where Stu was? Perhaps he was at home, working on a new alternative)

Suddendly, the SB can now say that Option #1 really was the best plan all along, based on "public input".

I am amazed at the way that this entire RD study has been conducted, and it is so clear that decisions were made many months ago regarding the RD and who was going to be sent to SL.

The sheer amount of time, money, energy that this process has sapped from the community is just mind boggling! The stress that has been created over the last few months as a result of this RD is sure to result in many future divorces, illnesses, and depression related health issues.

The damage and distrust that has been created amongst those neighborhoods that have been selected for this boundary study, is huge, and I believe that many friendships have been permanently damaged. It is a process that the SB planned from the very beginning, to create alternatives that they knew would pit community against community. Break Fox Mill into 2? Split Floris into 2? Split Chantilly Highlands into 2? Put McNair in Herndon after the feedback from the prior meetings and feedback? Send Navy to Oakton? These are some of the best ideas that our SB and staff could come up with?

If these SB members are responsible for the education that our children are to get, we are all in very big trouble! The incompetence that has been demonstrated by this board is unbelievable.The under the table political dealings are just as bad. The SB members have been "elected", to represent all of us, not just South Lakes.

It has been posted by some on this Forum that a majority opinion does not constitute the "right" opinion as it relates to this RD. I disagree. Were our SB members not elected into their positions by a "majority of votes" by the public?

I hope that there is someone would has been documenting everything that has been said during this process, as it would make a great documentary on how "not" to conduct a boundary study.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: iagree ()
Date: February 20, 2008 07:51AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After watching the channel 21 broadcast last
> night, it appears the the master plan of Stu and
> Kathy is moving on along as planned. It should
> have been clear to all that new options 2 and 3
> were "never" going to fly. It seems like both Stu
> and Kathy created plans that pretty much
> compromised most of the major objectives in the
> study, including keeping neighborhoods together,
> reduced split feeders, elimination of islands,
> reduced commutes etc etc.
>
> By limiting who could speak to the proposal's on
> the table, and what could be said regarding the RD
> at the hearing last night, it was clear that the
> families in Chantilly Highlands and Fox Mill would
> be out in full force, to denounce the 2 new plans.
> (I wonder where Stu was? Perhaps he was at home,
> working on a new alternative)
>
> Suddendly, the SB can now say that Option #1
> really was the best plan all along, based on
> "public input".
>
> I am amazed at the way that this entire RD study
> has been conducted, and it is so clear that
> decisions were made many months ago regarding the
> RD and who was going to be sent to SL.
>
> The sheer amount of time, money, energy that this
> process has sapped from the community is just mind
> boggling! The stress that has been created over
> the last few months as a result of this RD is sure
> to result in many future divorces, illnesses, and
> depression related health issues.
>
> The damage and distrust that has been created
> amongst those neighborhoods that have been
> selected for this boundary study, is huge, and I
> believe that many friendships have been
> permanently damaged. It is a process that the SB
> planned from the very beginning, to create
> alternatives that they knew would pit community
> against community. Break Fox Mill into 2? Split
> Floris into 2? Split Chantilly Highlands into 2?
> Put McNair in Herndon after the feedback from the
> prior meetings and feedback? Send Navy to Oakton?
> These are some of the best ideas that our SB and
> staff could come up with?
>
> If these SB members are responsible for the
> education that our children are to get, we are all
> in very big trouble! The incompetence that has
> been demonstrated by this board is
> unbelievable.The under the table political
> dealings are just as bad. The SB members have been
> "elected", to represent all of us, not just South
> Lakes.
>
> It has been posted by some on this Forum that a
> majority opinion does not constitute the "right"
> opinion as it relates to this RD. I disagree. Were
> our SB members not elected into their positions by
> a "majority of votes" by the public?
>
> I hope that there is someone would has been
> documenting everything that has been said during
> this process, as it would make a great documentary
> on how "not" to conduct a boundary study.


when we were watching this is exactly what i said to my husband---so sad...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Huh? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 08:37AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After watching the channel 21 broadcast last
> night, it appears the the master plan of Stu and
> Kathy is moving on along as planned. It should
> have been clear to all that new options 2 and 3
> were "never" going to fly. It seems like both Stu
> and Kathy created plans that pretty much
> compromised most of the major objectives in the
> study, including keeping neighborhoods together,
> reduced split feeders, elimination of islands,
> reduced commutes etc etc.
>
> By limiting who could speak to the proposal's on
> the table, and what could be said regarding the RD
> at the hearing last night, it was clear that the
> families in Chantilly Highlands and Fox Mill would
> be out in full force, to denounce the 2 new plans.
> (I wonder where Stu was? Perhaps he was at home,
> working on a new alternative)
>
> Suddendly, the SB can now say that Option #1
> really was the best plan all along, based on
> "public input".
>
> I am amazed at the way that this entire RD study
> has been conducted, and it is so clear that
> decisions were made many months ago regarding the
> RD and who was going to be sent to SL.
>
> The sheer amount of time, money, energy that this
> process has sapped from the community is just mind
> boggling! The stress that has been created over
> the last few months as a result of this RD is sure
> to result in many future divorces, illnesses, and
> depression related health issues.
>
> The damage and distrust that has been created
> amongst those neighborhoods that have been
> selected for this boundary study, is huge, and I
> believe that many friendships have been
> permanently damaged. It is a process that the SB
> planned from the very beginning, to create
> alternatives that they knew would pit community
> against community. Break Fox Mill into 2? Split
> Floris into 2? Split Chantilly Highlands into 2?
> Put McNair in Herndon after the feedback from the
> prior meetings and feedback? Send Navy to Oakton?
> These are some of the best ideas that our SB and
> staff could come up with?
>
> If these SB members are responsible for the
> education that our children are to get, we are all
> in very big trouble! The incompetence that has
> been demonstrated by this board is
> unbelievable.The under the table political
> dealings are just as bad. The SB members have been
> "elected", to represent all of us, not just South
> Lakes.
>
> It has been posted by some on this Forum that a
> majority opinion does not constitute the "right"
> opinion as it relates to this RD. I disagree. Were
> our SB members not elected into their positions by
> a "majority of votes" by the public?
>
> I hope that there is someone would has been
> documenting everything that has been said during
> this process, as it would make a great documentary
> on how "not" to conduct a boundary study.


Does anyone feel--as I do--that there is a lack of integrity among SBM when they begin the reboundary discussions immediately AFTER the November elections? We had and have the right to know how they will vote on important issues that affect our communities. Stand-up people will say what they think and then let others decided to support them of not. To do otherwise is just sneaky and low.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 20, 2008 08:44AM

What does a FCPS school board meeting have in common with Cuba?
In both places dissent is not allowed.

We watched the meeting on television and it was surreal how the sound would go off if the speaker (such as a Floris parent) would stray into forbidden topics such as IB. What kind of control freak idea is that?
Also, maybe the woman who announces the speakers should learn how to pronounce ethnic names. We finally quit watching at about 11:30. Anything good happen after that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Huh? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 08:46AM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am totally appalled at what our school board
> is doing, right now, on channel
> > 21. This is supposed to be a PUBLIC HEARING,
> yet they are only allowing certain > members of
> the community to speak and, worse, they are are
> limiting what they
> > can address! They cannot speak about their
> school, what they want for their
> > children, or how they feel about redistricting!
> They are being cut off,
> > literally, by the school board and then by their
> microphones! This is
> > horrible. This school board doesn't give a
> rat's butt about these minority
> > people who are trying to tell them how they feel
> and what they want! Brad,
> > Janie, and the Chair, Dan Storck, have all told
> these ESOL people to stop
> > talking about South Lakes and redistricting.
> SHAME on them! This isn't a
> > public hearing!
> >
> > Just when we think our school board can't be any
> more arrogant, they sink to a
> > lower level. SHAME ON THEM!
>
> Is it time to eliminate the elected school board?
>
>
> Isn't there a petition process to go back to
> appointed school boards?
>
> Time to start circulating that petition?


It seems like they held this public hearing as part of their "due diligence" and not because they were open to new thoughts. At the SB working meeting a week ago Monday, it was clear when Dan Storck brought up the idea of a new hearing that most were very cool to the idea. While it's pretty clear they have already made up their minds, even they couldn't know if some citizen, perhaps talking about an issue that has been brought up before, might present that one kernel of information that sways someone's thoughts and brings new light and understanding somehow. Putting handcuffs on the hearing can't be right.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: February 20, 2008 09:13AM

Good afternoon School Board members,



I have been actively participating in the West County Boundary study, and am a resident in the NE Floris community that is currently in the Radar for a RD to South Lakes. I have sent prior emails to most of you, and have received replies from a couple of you. As we are nearing the February 28th deadline, a thought has occurred to me. After hearing from many hundreds of parents and students who are either for against this Boundary Study, I have come to the conclusion that you are never going to be able to satisfy everyone.

The very nature of the Boundary Study has been conducted in such a way, that we literally have neighbors and friends who are now fighting about who stays and who goes. The current process has created a situation where people are voicing opinions that are not necessarily based on right or wrong, but based on whether they will be impacted by a change in their own school choice. We all know that any facts or figures, statistics and rumors can be spun in such a way as to prove or disprove ones position.



After hearing about a couple of new proposals that were suggested by Kathy Smith and Stu Gibson, it seems clear to me that you are attempting to make adjustment to alternate number 5, in order to respond to some of the concerns and flaws in the plan submitted by the Staff.

It is commendable that you are trying to think outside the box, and achieve a plan that makes more sense. Having said this, I am pretty sure that at this stage, no matter what you propose, it is going to create additional negative reactions amongst those that are going to be moved into or out of their current school. I do have much more empathy for the task that you are dealing with, and admire the fact that you are willing to take all of the verbal abuse that has been heaped onto you. I am sure that whatever you are getting paid to Represent your district areas, is not enough to justify the time demands and stress that you role comes with.



As I see it, here are the issues:



Staff says that South Lakes is under enrolled.

Staff says that Westfield and Chantilly are overenrolled.



Of these two issues, and believe that the under enrollment of South Lakes is the real issue, but using over capacity at the other 2 schools is a means to justify the RD to populate South Lakes.



I believe that most logical people can see that there are probably very good reasons to balance out enrollments at the 2 large schools and South Lakes.



I believe that it was a big mistake to bring up Socio-economics, Attendance Islands, reduction of Split feeders, and shorter commutes into the discussion, to justify the because you will never be able to accomplish all of these objectives with the current scope of Schools in the Boundary Study.



Those who are opposed to the RD state that they purchased homes in their communities, in part because of the schools in which they feed to. They claim to have no knowledge of a possible Boundary Study and RD.



Those who oppose the Rd are stating that they are concerned about the IB VS AP curriculum.



Those who oppose the RD are stating that in some cases, they will have high schooler’s in 2 different high schools at the same time.



Those who oppose the RD are stating that this RD, including the newest proposals, will split neighborhoods, and create split feeders in the Elementary schools.



It is difficult to argue with the points, as most are true to some extent.



I would like to propose a possible solution to the heated debate.



I will ask the that School Board agree to pause the final decision on the RD until this Fall, and make any changes in Boundaries become effective in the Fall of 2009.



Here is the rational-



#1 You can conduct and determine the boundaries for Coppermine ES, in conjunction with the High School boundaries. This would be the reason given for pausing any final decisions until the fall of 08, with implementation to begin if fall 09..



#2 By delaying implementation until Fall 2009, you will provide those families who feel compelled to move out of their homes, and into another neighborhood the opportunity to do so.



#3 I would suggest the that SB do some sort of a survey for the currently enrolled students in South Lakes, to determine whether they want to remain an IB curriculum school, or change to an AP school. I believe that if South Lakes becomes an AP based curriculum, this eliminates the objections that have been raised by so many who are opposed to IB.



#4 By pausing the final decision until this fall, with implementation to be effective in Fall of 2009, it will give more time for students and parents to become more familiar with South Lakes, and also will allow South Lakes to continue to tout all of the benefits of the new school building, administration changes, and (if IB remains) start to better educate and promote this curriculum to the public.



#5 Lastly, I am sure that by now, everyone who has children in schools in the Western part of the county is aware of the fact that Boundaries are going to change (including Langley, Madison and all of the current schools in the study). No one will be able to say in the fall, that they were not aware of the changes, and the expectations should be that all should be prepared to go. This will give the staff ample time to see what is the best moves, and perhaps open up the scopes to include Herndon and Langley and perhaps a larger portion of Madison. (A larger portion of Madison may make the “Island” feel better, since they feel that the current proposals make their children isolated.



As I see the new plans that have proposed, they have as many, or more flaws as the Alternate number 5 plan.



Splitting McNair is unusual. Splitting Fox Mill is unusual, splitting Oak Hill is unusual. Splitting Floris in one proposal is unusal.



I believe that if you can look at the big picture, you will call for a halt of this RD Study, and use the next 6 months to come up with a plan that is better suited to address the concerns of South Lakes as well as the surrounding communities. The current plans that are being considered are not going to address the issue of enrolling South lakes with more students.

I cannot imagine how the damage wrought by this devisive study will mend itself by this fall if you move forward with the RD as planned. I cannot imagine what it would be like for the few 8th graders who will be the 1st to enetr SL after all of the Venom that has been released by this RD.

If I were a parent with children currently enrolled in South Lakes, I would probably "not" want any of the Fox Mill or Floris students or parents in the school this fall, and as a parent in the Westfield or Oakton HS pyramid, and I would never send my child to South Lakes this fall.

Who would possibly want to have their child be a part of the initial group of kids who would be entering SL after all of the controversy and anger that has been wrought over the past few months?

Perhaps in a year or two, if the work of Bruce Butler is able to improve the overall environment at South Lakes, and we see that people who are already in the SL pyramid stop placing out, it may be more likely that others would consider sending their kids to SL.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Future Seahawk ()
Date: February 20, 2008 09:25AM

Are you me? I sent a an almost identical note to the school board members yesterday in preparation for last night's hearing. Now whether they will read it is another story...

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good afternoon School Board members,
>
>
>
> I have been actively participating in the West
> County Boundary study, and am a resident in the NE
> Floris community that is currently in the Radar
> for a RD to South Lakes. I have sent prior emails
> to most of you, and have received replies from a
> couple of you. As we are nearing the February 28th
> deadline, a thought has occurred to me. After
> hearing from many hundreds of parents and students
> who are either for against this Boundary Study, I
> have come to the conclusion that you are never
> going to be able to satisfy everyone.
>
> The very nature of the Boundary Study has been
> conducted in such a way, that we literally have
> neighbors and friends who are now fighting about
> who stays and who goes. The current process has
> created a situation where people are voicing
> opinions that are not necessarily based on right
> or wrong, but based on whether they will be
> impacted by a change in their own school choice.
> We all know that any facts or figures, statistics
> and rumors can be spun in such a way as to prove
> or disprove ones position.
>
>
>
> ...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: RD is just not the answer ()
Date: February 20, 2008 09:40AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good afternoon School Board members,

so, to paraphrase,

make a tactical retreat, attack again in a few months, drag in even more people and everything will be ok ..

I don't buy it - it assumes that RD is the right answer to the problem and the community really doesn't believe it

Can you imagine how it would go:

"you dragged us through this earlier in the year and now your doing it again - see you in court..."

"you tore up a quarter of the county and failed - now you're dragging us in as well - see you in court ..."

The real answer is to
- abandon the RD completely
- fix the performance issues at SL and Hughes
- make them into schools that people want to end their kids to, probably by making SL into an aspirational IB magnet

But that would take courage on the behalf of the SB - and that seems to be in short supply

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:10AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good afternoon School Board members,
>
>
>
> I have been actively participating in the West
> County Boundary study, and am a resident in the NE
> Floris community that is currently in the Radar
> for a RD to South Lakes. I have sent prior emails
> to most of you, and have received replies from a
> couple of you. As we are nearing the February 28th
> deadline, a thought has occurred to me. After
> hearing from many hundreds of parents and students
> who are either for against this Boundary Study, I
> have come to the conclusion that you are never
> going to be able to satisfy everyone.
>
> The very nature of the Boundary Study has been
> conducted in such a way, that we literally have
> neighbors and friends who are now fighting about
> who stays and who goes. The current process has
> created a situation where people are voicing
> opinions that are not necessarily based on right
> or wrong, but based on whether they will be
> impacted by a change in their own school choice.
> We all know that any facts or figures, statistics
> and rumors can be spun in such a way as to prove
> or disprove ones position.
>
>
>
> After hearing about a couple of new proposals that
> were suggested by Kathy Smith and Stu Gibson, it
> seems clear to me that you are attempting to make
> adjustment to alternate number 5, in order to
> respond to some of the concerns and flaws in the
> plan submitted by the Staff.
>
> It is commendable that you are trying to think
> outside the box, and achieve a plan that makes
> more sense. Having said this, I am pretty sure
> that at this stage, no matter what you propose, it
> is going to create additional negative reactions
> amongst those that are going to be moved into or
> out of their current school. I do have much more
> empathy for the task that you are dealing with,
> and admire the fact that you are willing to take
> all of the verbal abuse that has been heaped onto
> you. I am sure that whatever you are getting paid
> to Represent your district areas, is not enough to
> justify the time demands and stress that you role
> comes with.
>
>
>
> As I see it, here are the issues:
>
>
>
> Staff says that South Lakes is under enrolled.
>
> Staff says that Westfield and Chantilly are
> overenrolled.
>
>
>
> Of these two issues, and believe that the under
> enrollment of South Lakes is the real issue, but
> using over capacity at the other 2 schools is a
> means to justify the RD to populate South Lakes.
>
>
>
> I believe that most logical people can see that
> there are probably very good reasons to balance
> out enrollments at the 2 large schools and South
> Lakes.
>
>
>
> I believe that it was a big mistake to bring up
> Socio-economics, Attendance Islands, reduction of
> Split feeders, and shorter commutes into the
> discussion, to justify the because you will never
> be able to accomplish all of these objectives with
> the current scope of Schools in the Boundary
> Study.
>
>
>
> Those who are opposed to the RD state that they
> purchased homes in their communities, in part
> because of the schools in which they feed to. They
> claim to have no knowledge of a possible Boundary
> Study and RD.
>
>
>
> Those who oppose the Rd are stating that they are
> concerned about the IB VS AP curriculum.
>
>
>
> Those who oppose the RD are stating that in some
> cases, they will have high schooler

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:07AM

The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1 GPA. GFY.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:18AM

AP vs IB Wrote:
> ... Also, FR, wanted to address the choices you gave
> earlier in terms of how to offer IB. One of the
> options was the Academy where you said the student
> would take 5 IB classes at SL. That won't work.
> The academy courses are one subject, and many
> essentially take 2-3 blocks/periods. Students
> lose one per day due to transportation. So for
> example if their academy course was Culinary arts,
> they would have first block at their base school,
> take the bus to the academy school, have a block
> there, and return back to base school. Depending
> on what "shift" their academy class is they might
> arrive back to their base school during lunch, or
> they might arrive a little late to their next
> class at their base school.
>
> If they were taking 5 classes at SL, their base
> school would effectively become the academy
> school. And again, usually they lose a block.

Have you looked at Lamar Academy in McAllen TX? Another poster mentioned it so I looked it up. They have a small IB Academy (about 25 Diploma grads per year, with 100% of the Diploma Candidates earning the IB Diploma). The students come from three high schools and are still considered to be students at their base schools.

Such a model might resolve a lot of the issues with IB within FCPS, and even open the IB Diploma programme to students in AP schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:21AM

Thomas More Wrote:
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > republic: a political system or form of
> > government in which people elect
> > representatives to exercise power for them
>
> "republic" derives from the Latin "res", thing and
> "publica" pubic: the thing done in public or thing
> belonging to the public. Thus, a republic is a
> government conducted in the open and not behind
> closed doors (in the monarch's private chambers)
> or a government belong to the the people (as
> opposed to, e.g., a monarchy), which results in
> "republic" being a perfect synonym of "democracy".
>
> "Republic" has nothing to do with whether a
> democracy is a direct democracy (think New England
> town meeting) or a representative democracy
> (Congress).

----
"re·pub·lic n
1. a political system or form of government in which people elect representatives to exercise power for them
2. a state or other political unit with a form of government in which the supreme power is in the hands of representatives elected by the people
3. re·pub·lic or Re·pub·lic a country whose government or political system is that of a republic
4. re·pub·lic or Re·pub·lic a constituent political and territorial unit of a national federation or union
5. a group of people who are considered to be equals and who have a collective interest, objective, or vocation (formal)

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Goody Two Shoes ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:36AM

FR, were you the kid in class who always had her arm in the air, cleaned the erasers, and corrected all of the other students. Take a break from your pedantic stance sometime. You might find that people will actually like you if you do.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Goooze Frabba ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:51AM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1 GPA.
> GFY.

'nuff said

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Letterman ()
Date: February 20, 2008 12:42PM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does a FCPS school board meeting have in
> common with Cuba?
> In both places dissent is not allowed.
>
> We watched the meeting on television and it was
> surreal how the sound would go off if the speaker
> (such as a Floris parent) would stray into
> forbidden topics such as IB. What kind of control
> freak idea is that?
> Also, maybe the woman who announces the speakers
> should learn how to pronounce ethnic names. We
> finally quit watching at about 11:30. Anything
> good happen after that?



It ended.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:05PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > ... Also, FR, wanted to address the choices you
> gave
> > earlier in terms of how to offer IB. One of
> the
> > options was the Academy where you said the
> student
> > would take 5 IB classes at SL. That won't work.
>
> > The academy courses are one subject, and many
> > essentially take 2-3 blocks/periods. Students
> > lose one per day due to transportation. So for
> > example if their academy course was Culinary
> arts,
> > they would have first block at their base
> school,
> > take the bus to the academy school, have a
> block
> > there, and return back to base school.
> Depending
> > on what "shift" their academy class is they
> might
> > arrive back to their base school during lunch,
> or
> > they might arrive a little late to their next
> > class at their base school.
> >
> > If they were taking 5 classes at SL, their base
> > school would effectively become the academy
> > school. And again, usually they lose a block.
>
> Have you looked at Lamar Academy in McAllen TX?
> Another poster mentioned it so I looked it up.
> They have a small IB Academy (about 25 Diploma
> grads per year, with 100% of the Diploma
> Candidates earning the IB Diploma). The students
> come from three high schools and are still
> considered to be students at their base schools.
>
> Such a model might resolve a lot of the issues
> with IB within FCPS, and even open the IB Diploma
> programme to students in AP schools.

I did look it up, and saw the IBO article about them. I saw their schedule on their link: http://mcallenisd.lamar.schoolfusion.us/modules/cms/pages.phtml?pageid=16621&sessionid=204efb0698f19ed5c697bb3bdb992e1f

and wonder how they do anything at their base school?

Also, where did you find the stats that 100% earned the diploma? That is truly incredible, and if true I would have expected to see it in the IBO article, but I didn't.

Though it has the word academy as a part of it, it is more along the lines of how FCPS would view a magnet.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:12PM

dude, this is page 225, give it a rest!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Huh? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:16PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Did you know that a Senior I know got a 740
> this
> > year on the US History SAT II having complete
> IB
> > History of the Americas last year? Not only did
> he
> > cover allthe US history he needed for that exam
> > (except for two hours' of nuggets in the SAT II
> > review book), he covered it in context with the
> > rest of this hemisphere of which we are
> > inextricably a part. He can tell you how
> slavery
> > in Latin America affected decisionmaking here
> in
> > the 1850s. He can tell you how the civil wars
> in
> > Brazil and the US were similar and different,
> and
> > about the nature of civil wars themselves. He
> can
> > tell you, say, whether he thinks the war in
> Iraq
> > is or isn't a civil war and he could weigh what
> > our leaders are telling us when they ask for
> > support for their foreign policies. He voted
> for
> > the first time last week, and he was better
> > informed than most adults I know. Go figure.
>
> What can he tell us about US history after 1865,
> the year that HOA ends?
>
> There's a gap in the IB history cycle. 1865-1900
> US history is mostly missing. This is the period
> of the 1876 eletion fix (kind of like 2000) and
> the failure of reconstruction which gave us the
> KKK and the American version of apartheid. This
> is the period of the Robber Barons (kind of like
> Bill Gates). This is the period of the anarchists
> (kind of like the Taliban). This is the period of
> Wm. Jennings Bryan, the gold standard and the
> agrarian populists.
>
> Few IB kids I've talked to understand this period,
> the issues that rose during that time and their
> parallels that they have to today.
>
> Senior year, IB kids take 20th Century Issues
> where they learn all about colonialism and little
> about the civil rights era. All about communism
> and little about McCarthyism. All about WW II,
> from a European perspective, and little about the
> war in the Pacific. The title should really be
> European 20th Century Issues.
>
> This anecdote is about one exceptional kid is
> admirable but not persuasive in view of the
> deficiencies in the IB history cycle described
> above.


I've come to beleive that IB can provide a fine "Humanities Magnet" education.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: what is this? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:22PM

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/reston-va/THNIKMKIDOAC4EQUH

some posts about fights and teacher misconduct at SL...anyone know anything about this? Are the allegations about the teachers true?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ParentOf4 ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:25PM

RD is just not the answer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Good afternoon School Board members,
>
> so, to paraphrase,
>
> make a tactical retreat, attack again in a few
> months, drag in even more people and everything
> will be ok ..
>
> I don't buy it - it assumes that RD is the right
> answer to the problem and the community really
> doesn't believe it
>
> Can you imagine how it would go:
>
> "you dragged us through this earlier in the year
> and now your doing it again - see you in
> court..."
>
> "you tore up a quarter of the county and failed -
> now you're dragging us in as well - see you in
> court ..."
>
> The real answer is to
> - abandon the RD completely
> - fix the performance issues at SL and Hughes
> - make them into schools that people want to end
> their kids to, probably by making SL into an
> aspirational IB magnet
>
> But that would take courage on the behalf of the
> SB - and that seems to be in short supply


I Agree - tabling the discussion just puts it off and saves the 69 that are slated for this fall. What about the current 7th graders? The issues lay in South Lakes ball park. If the school does not change, the situation will be the same next fall. Address the performance at SL and Hughes. Truly implement AP because the majority does want AP - or if you don't believe that, conduct an honest survey of the potentially affected communities. Just waiting a year does not address the performance level issues at SL, it only gives the SB time to reflect on their flawed process, not that all on the SB will. It is not a guarantee that the SB will broaden their scope and open their minds in the Fall of '08. We chose our house and our community based mainly on the schools. How on earth could anyone expect us to settle for being rearranged like furniture into a situation that is less than optimal, where there is not a plan to handle the deficiencies that exist? Fix the issues at SL and you will create a new opinion of the school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:32PM

Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style survey, where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal number of representatives in a committee and conduct the research/survey? Is the results too obvious? Uh, I forget, they don't want majority rules.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Fed Up Parent ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:39PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style survey,
> where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal number of
> representatives in a committee and conduct the
> research/survey? Is the results too obvious? Uh, I
> forget, they don't want majority rules.

Yes, and maybe we can conduct a survey of what should be served at lunch on Thursdays. Then, a survey to determine if flip flops should be allowed on school grounds. Maybe we should have waited until each school had a majority vote of parents to integrate. We would still be waiting today. As a parent, I have followed this thread for months. We live in a representative democracy. The school board is an elected body. If you and enough people disagree with them, they can be voted out of office. The only thing you are doing now is telling the children that are about to go to this school is that they don't belong there and they are getting a subpar education. I am sure that is how you would've like to have gone through your adolescence.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: goaway ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:41PM

what is this? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.topix.com/forum/city/reston-va/THNIKMKI
> DOAC4EQUH
>
> some posts about fights and teacher misconduct at
> SL...anyone know anything about this? Are the
> allegations about the teachers true?


This is the same "fight" that has been posted over and over on this thread and was completely blown out of proportion. The posts are not "about fights" they are about how there was no huge fight and that they are such a rare occurence. As for the teacher allegations, that can happen anywhere...chantilly anyone?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Scoop ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:42PM

what is this? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.topix.com/forum/city/reston-va/THNIKMKI
> DOAC4EQUH
>
> some posts about fights and teacher misconduct at
> SL...anyone know anything about this? Are the
> allegations about the teachers true?

That's old news, dude.

But what about this one? Is this true? What about those McLean kids who banged on the middle schooler's orthodontia? True? Or the Chantilly teacher arrested last month? True?

"The kid, he notes, has been in frequent trouble at school, and is now accused by his ex-girlfriend of threatening to beat up another student. The situation has grown more alarming because suspicion is building that the troubled boy may be associated with a gang and that his threatened foil -- who says he was beaten up by another Oakton student just three days earlier -- has ignored a drug debt; the story is that he either was given or stole marijuana that belonged to other boys, and hasn't paid them back. Baranyk would like to bust someone for the assault, but he doesn't have a witness, besides the victim, whose credibility has never been rock solid."

[www.washingtonpost.com]

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Huh? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:44PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1 GPA.
> GFY.


The young lady who spoke on the RD at the second public hearing--and attended several of the town meetings--noted that she switched from TJ to SL because of the commute.

She is obviously happy at SL now...she talked enthusiastically about writing a 15 page paper in math...which may make her exceptional in more ways than one. She was very impressive, mature and well-spoken...definitely the kind of poster child that SL needs.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 20, 2008 01:53PM

For me, the most compelling fact-based testimony last night was the guy from Chantilly at the end of the testimony who overlaid Dulles airport on one of the proposals. While I could not see it clearly on TV, his map really shocked me...it seemed to indicate that parts of Westfields are really isolated from the rest of the Westfields attendance area. I think this is similar to the argument made by the Madison folks re: the greenbelt and industrial area that separates them from SL.

I think the Chantilly dad was saying that the Floris people assigned to Westfields are an island when you put Dulles on the map, but I am not sure...maybe he was making another point....it was hard to see and hard to hear. If that guy is on this forum, can he explain his point?

Anyway, I think it would be powerful if people, pro or con RD, could produce more of these kind of overlays. It would be interesting to see if there are de facto islands in the current or proposed boundaries. Of course, even if such an exercise reveals such islands, that does not necessarily prove one option is better than another. But those kind of maps would be a bit more intellectually honest.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: February 20, 2008 02:55PM

Fed Up Parent - Imputing a sense of "what others are doing" is the worst form of debate and discussion - as in the only thing you are doing is telling children that they shouldn't go to this school and that they will receive a sub-part education. It is detrimental to whatever arguments you are trying to make. First, it reflects the way so many adolescents react (and parents of adolescents can confirm) when confronted with a fact based position to which they don't like - "look at what you are doing" is one of the first exclamations. Hardly the way to advance a position - righteousness indignation is not a substitute for reasoned, if difficult, discourse. Second, it presumes quite a bit of speculation - because what in fact most are doing here is explaining why their preferences should sustain in public debate - that is a far cry from dictating that young people should feel bad about their high school experiences. Imputing the worst in people in a speculative way is a way to foreclose debate, but it is a furtive one, especially given that there are way too many smart people following this issue (something Stu Gibson ought to keep in mind - witness the MIT Grad's complete and total factual evisceration of opponents on the AP vs. IB math issue - the silence from opponents has been deafening). Third, to the extent there are any negative perceptions of the place, one has to filter out the fair versus unfair criticisms for that to have any probative or persuasive impact - and even granting that some of the criticisms are unfair - there are a number of very fair criticisms - and some of the data points about South Lakes are relatively unattractive when placed in the context of surrounding schools - no amount of emotionalism will change that fact. Fourth, it presumes (falsely I believe) that motivated teens at South Lakes (and frankly, they are only ones who care this issue) will somehow have their feelings hurt and not perform, as if they don't already carry a very healthy slug of skepticism towards the activities of adults, and frankly have much tougher skins than anyone gives them credit for. And in any event, this factor is hardly one upon which policy should be premised under any circumstance, as much it entices progressive sensibilities. And finally, once again such an approach lacks any reference to empiricism, which means that it will fail to persuade when it is South Lakes, like it or not, that has the burden of persuasion. But having said all this, I have been referred to as a stupid blowhard, so what the heck, I could be all wet.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:01PM

"Yes, and maybe we can conduct a survey of what should be served at lunch on Thursdays. Then, a survey to determine if flip flops should be allowed on school grounds. Maybe we should have waited until each school had a majority vote of parents to integrate. We would still be waiting today. As a parent, I have followed this thread for months. We live in a representative democracy. The school board is an elected body. If you and enough people disagree with them, they can be voted out of office. The only thing you are doing now is telling the children that are about to go to this school is that they don't belong there and they are getting a subpar education. I am sure that is how you would've like to have gone through your adolescence."

Right, don't change anything ever, even if most people want the change. We've already heard about the tyranny of the majority. I didn't realize that the majority was ALWAYS wrong. That makes sense. I especially liked the reference to integration. Nice touch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2008 03:13PM by fm/c/o parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: repost? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:29PM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't know if anyone posted this yet
>
> http://68.142.200.12/us.f337.mail.yahoo.com/ya/sec
> uredownload?mid=1_39971_AMvJjkQAAXrmR7yAxgfixTvR9a
> M&fid=Inbox&pid=2&tnef=&clean=0&redirectURL=http%3
> A%2F%2Fus.mg1.mail.yahoo.com%2Fdc%2Fvirusresults.h
> tml%3Ffrom%3Ddownload_response%26ui%3Diframe%26YY%
> 3D1203537327234%26&cred=LP.bW_k4MN1_yOf9jfTFIt1CYl
> hcUuu.xgntWROenVpCkSRaHOOXGjQgwkeXBgAAj0RFXkjffOPX
> 1OPbo.wzDJzmXlslEntbqvFZUJcO9g--&ts=1203537678&par
> tner=ymail&sig=siJYaR8zgmyraNIXVCiZxA--

could you repost this in a way which is easier for people to access?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:37PM

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> >
> > Have you looked at Lamar Academy in McAllen TX?
> > Another poster mentioned it so I looked it up.
> > They have a small IB Academy (about 25 Diploma
> > grads per year, with 100% of the Diploma
> > Candidates earning the IB Diploma). The students
> > come from three high schools and are still
> > considered to be students at their base schools.
> >
> > Such a model might resolve a lot of the issues
> > with IB within FCPS, and even open the IB Diploma
> > programme to students in AP schools.
>
> I did look it up, and saw the IBO article about
> them. I saw their schedule on their link:
> http://mcallenisd.lamar.schoolfusion.us/modules/cm
> s/pages.phtml?pageid=16621&sessionid=204efb0698f19
> ed5c697bb3bdb992e1f
>
> and wonder how they do anything at their base school?
>
> Also, where did you find the stats that 100%
> earned the diploma? That is truly incredible, and
> if true I would have expected to see it in the IBO
> article, but I didn't.
>
> Though it has the word academy as a part of it, it
> is more along the lines of how FCPS would view a
> magnet.

---
http://www.ibo.org/ibworld/jan07/access.cfm
"... Lamar Academy graduated the fifth class of IB students in May 2006. Our school and district are proud that all of our 99 IB students have earned diplomas over the past four years ... the school district decided to put the programme at Lamar Academy rather than at one of the three comprehensive high schools. The programme was set up so that the students who attempted the IB Diploma Programme were still considered students at their home campus, where they participated in electives, fine arts, and athletics, while they took all of their academic (IB) classes at Lamar Academy."

I don't know how they do it either.

From the "IB Student Application -Diploma Program (11th grade)" at the site that you posted, it appears they have a policy of "exiting" weak students from the programme.

Their "SAMPLE IB FOUR-YEAR PLAN" includes two AP courses in the senior year, and NO IB SL courses the senior year:
11th Grade Year
IB English 3 HL
IB Spanish/ French 3 or 4
IB History 3 HL
IB Physics/ Chemistry/ Biology SL
IB Math Studies SL
Technology Applications
IB Elective
Elective

12th Grade Year
IB English 4 HL
IB Elective HL
IB History 4 HL
Speech
AP Calculus AB
Elective
AP Govt/ Economics

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:37PM

How's this?
Attachments:
Fairfax Times.mht

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: repost? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:44PM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How's this?


http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/letter/1175/

Redistricting not the answer to South Lakes' problems
Submitted By: Joni L. Forsythe
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 19 2008

Editors Note: The letter writer intended this as an open letter to the Fairfax County School Board.
As each of you prepares for the Feb. 28 vote on the west county boundary study, I implore you to consider the following.
The options on the table are numbers-driven proposals designed to do just one thing, boost enrollment at South Lakes High School, whatever the cost. Each of these options fails to address the fundamental programmatic issue that is critical to the success of any option. South Lakes High School is an IB school. That cannot be ignored.
There are fundamental differences between IB and AP programs. The IB diploma program provides an excellent opportunity for students who are interested in the internationally focused course of studies, and committed to the pursuit of an IB diploma. However, it is not for everyone. Like other focus school programs, it can only be successful if undertaken on a voluntary basis. It must be a choice. A student’s choice to pursue an AP curriculum is equally compelling, and must be equally respected.
Each of the current proposals tries to correct under-enrollment at South Lakes High by forcing students out of mainstream AP curriculum high schools, simply to fill seats at South Lakes. That is a reaction, not a solution. It does not serve the needs of the students, and will not serve the interests of the South Lakes community.
This approach would affect thousands of students over the next few years alone. Parents are looking ahead. The school system will likely be overwhelmed with the volume of AP pupil-placement requests as the vast majority of high school students (and college admissions boards) prefer AP curriculum. If those requests are not honored, there will be a tidal wave of opposition from parents determined to bring an end to the IB program to the extent it does not serve the needs of their children. Parents have already begun to organize. Moreover, they know that this is a battle that was fought and won at Woodson High School in the not-so-distant past. In short, efforts to force an AP population into an IB focus school will not yield the desired result.
We need a better solution. The public has asked the school board to consider voluntary alternatives for increasing enrollment at South Lakes, including marketing the IB program to attract more IB-track students, as well as the possibility of adding a GT or magnet program. This type of approach would enjoy a strong base of support and would offer the possibility for realistic, cost-effective, long-term solutions that yield positive results for all students, without causing discord and upheaval within the affected communities.
Please take this opportunity to explore those options. A hasty vote, based on numbers alone, is sure to cause more problems than it could ever fix.
Joni L. Forsythe
Herndon

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:47PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft
> Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for
> Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc."

Well that tells you what a lot about the quality of the encarta dictionary. If you relied on it, I can understand your mistake.

My source is Websters and a good grounding in Latin. Democracy is the Greek word and Republic is the Latin word for the same thing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ayun ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:48PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: No Cajones ()
Date: February 20, 2008 03:59PM

Thomas,

Why didn't you put your money where your mouth is and speak at the public hearings? You should have used your vast persuasive skills and knowledge to convince the Board of the supremacy of your positions. I wonder why you didn't, considering the time you have spent arguing your points here. Too bad.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:00PM

ayun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oak hill was once considered a reston school?
>
> http://dspace.wrlc.org/view/ImgViewer?img=1&url=ht
> tp://dspace.wrlc.org/doc/manifest/2041/2413


Huh?? Oak Hill school is located well way over on Kincross Circle in the Chantilly area. How was Oak Hill ES ever considered to be a Reston school at that time? Did any of the land surveyors have a problem with their equipment back then? This is interesting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ayun ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:09PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ayun Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > oak hill was once considered a reston school?
> >
> >
> http://dspace.wrlc.org/view/ImgViewer?img=1&url=ht
>
> > tp://dspace.wrlc.org/doc/manifest/2041/2413
>
>
> Huh?? Oak Hill school is located well way over on
> Kincross Circle in the Chantilly area. How was
> Oak Hill ES ever considered to be a Reston school
> at that time? Did any of the land surveyors have
> a problem with their equipment back then? This is
> interesting.


does that description describe the oak hill building? i sounds kind of like sunrise valley, minus the 2 story thing...interesting...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:17PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > ---
> http://www.ibo.org/ibworld/jan07/access.cfm
> "... Lamar Academy graduated the fifth class of IB
> students in May 2006. Our school and district are
> proud that all of our 99 IB students have earned
> diplomas over the past four years ... the school
> district decided to put the programme at Lamar
> Academy rather than at one of the three
> comprehensive high schools. The programme was set
> up so that the students who attempted the IB
> Diploma Programme were still considered students
> at their home campus, where they participated in
> electives, fine arts, and athletics, while they
> took all of their academic (IB) classes at Lamar
> Academy."
>
> I don't know how they do it either.
>
> From the "IB Student Application -Diploma Program
> (11th grade)" at the site that you posted, it
> appears they have a policy of "exiting" weak
> students from the programme.
>
> Their "SAMPLE IB FOUR-YEAR PLAN" includes two AP
> courses in the senior year, and NO IB SL courses
> the senior year:
> 11th Grade Year
> IB English 3 HL
> IB Spanish/ French 3 or 4
> IB History 3 HL
> IB Physics/ Chemistry/ Biology SL
> IB Math Studies SL
> Technology Applications
> IB Elective
> Elective
>
> 12th Grade Year
> IB English 4 HL
> IB Elective HL
> IB History 4 HL
> Speech
> AP Calculus AB
> Elective
> AP Govt/ Economics

I hate to be cynical, but when they say "all 99 earned diplomas" I wonder if they simply mean HS diplomas:-). Seriously, I would think IBO would do a study on how this academy runs, what attributes the students and teachers have, and how they make it work. It sounds like even their first graduating class earned diplomas. The IBO itself uses the 80% figure when discussing how many candidates earn the IB diploma.

Did you find anything about the TOK class or the Extended Essay? For some reason I can't open the application link.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:24PM

ayun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ayun Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > oak hill was once considered a reston school?
>
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://dspace.wrlc.org/view/ImgViewer?img=1&url=ht
>
> >
> > > tp://dspace.wrlc.org/doc/manifest/2041/2413
> >
> >
> > Huh?? Oak Hill school is located well way over
> on
> > Kincross Circle in the Chantilly area. How was
> > Oak Hill ES ever considered to be a Reston
> school
> > at that time? Did any of the land surveyors
> have
> > a problem with their equipment back then? This
> is
> > interesting.
>
>
> does that description describe the oak hill
> building? i sounds kind of like sunrise valley,
> minus the 2 story thing...interesting...


Yes pretty interesting. It could be that the school was actually one of the Reston schools probably the present day Sunrise Valley ES. I don't know. But it is interesting how the name Oak Hill for a Reston school appeared and dated back in 1983?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:45PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999
> Microsoft
> > Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for
> > Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc."
>
> Well that tells you what a lot about the quality
> of the encarta dictionary. If you relied on it, I
> can understand your mistake.
>
> My source is Websters and a good grounding in
> Latin. Democracy is the Greek word and Republic
> is the Latin word for the same thing.

-------
Webster?
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
1 : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president; also : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government
2 : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law; also : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government

Checking several other sources, I still see nothing that resembles your definition. Below are a few that I found. Go ahead and post whatever else you want to say on this sub-sub-sub topic, and then I'll be happy to get back to discussing redistricting with you.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1), based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
2. any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.
3. a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.
4. (initial capital letter) any of the five periods of republican government in France. Compare First Republic, Second Republic, Third Republic, Fourth Republic, Fifth Republic.
5. (initial capital letter, italics) a philosophical dialogue (4th century b.c.) by Plato dealing with the composition and structure of the ideal state.

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
1. a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them [syn: democracy]
2. a form of government whose head of state is not a monarch; "the head of state in a republic is usually a president"

American Heritage Dictionary
1. a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
b. A nation that has such a political order.
c. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
d. A nation that has such a political order.
2. a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
b. A nation that has such a political order.
3. often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
A form of government in which power is explicitly vested in the people, who in turn exercise their power through elected representatives. Today, the terms republic and democracy are virtually interchangeable, but historically the two differed. Democracy implied direct rule by the people, all of whom were equal, whereas republic implied a system of government in which the will of the people was mediated by representatives, who might be wiser and better educated than the average person. In the early American republic, for example, the requirement that voters own property and the establishment of institutions such as the Electoral College were intended to cushion the government from the direct expression of the popular will.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: 2millionminutes ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:47PM

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4313028&page=1

2million minutes....a perfect reason to further expand the governor school

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Another Fed Up Parent ()
Date: February 20, 2008 04:50PM

We did not elect these people kings and queens. To say this is a representative democracy, as if that allows politicians the right to make decisions with no basis is just inaccurate. They have a responsibility to consider their constituents input. If they did not they would not be holding public hearings nor would they be spending hour upon hour meeting with various groups of concerned parents.

You go on to say:

The only thing you are doing now is telling the children that are about to go to this school is that they don't belong there and they are getting a subpar education.

Well for most of us this is inaccurate. We are not planning on sending our child to 'this school' so we certainly are not telling our 8th graders that they may receive a subpar education.

I do not believe SLHS offers a subpar education. I believe it offers an on par education. However IB is not a program that suits the majority of children if it were it would be in the majority of schools. This may come down simply to a lack of understanding. On the surface it just comes across as less straight forward. It is not the meat and potatos we are used to. I think Bruce Butler is an amazing man and he has my respect as does his school. For most of us the issue is programatic. That is all.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 20, 2008 05:03PM

AP vs IB Wrote:
> I hate to be cynical, but when they say "all 99
> earned diplomas" I wonder if they simply mean HS
> diplomas:-). Seriously, I would think IBO would
> do a study on how this academy runs, what
> attributes the students and teachers have, and how
> they make it work. It sounds like even their
> first graduating class earned diplomas. The IBO
> itself uses the 80% figure when discussing how
> many candidates earn the IB diploma.
>
> Did you find anything about the TOK class or the
> Extended Essay? For some reason I can't open the
> application link.

Do you mean the TOK class and Extended Essay just at Lamar, or the entire IBO?

As for the high success rate at Lamar, they only seem to count those who make it all the way through to the final exams, not those who are "exited from the programme."
"9th – 11th 2nd Semester
• Any student who has a semester average below 75 will be exited from the program.
Senior Year: 1st Semester
• Any student who has a semester average below 70 in any IB subject will be exited from that class. This student will be ineligible to earn the IB diploma, will not receive the IB pin, stole, or honor cords and will not participate in the pinning ceremony.
• The student may choose to exit to the home campus or become a certificate student. If the student elects to become a certificate student, they will be allowed to complete the IB classes in which they have a passing semester average and to test in those subjects only."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 20, 2008 06:26PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > I hate to be cynical, but when they say "all 99
> > earned diplomas" I wonder if they simply mean
> HS
> > diplomas:-). Seriously, I would think IBO
> would
> > do a study on how this academy runs, what
> > attributes the students and teachers have, and
> how
> > they make it work. It sounds like even their
> > first graduating class earned diplomas. The
> IBO
> > itself uses the 80% figure when discussing how
> > many candidates earn the IB diploma.
> >
> > Did you find anything about the TOK class or
> the
> > Extended Essay? For some reason I can't open
> the
> > application link.
>
> Do you mean the TOK class and Extended Essay just
> at Lamar, or the entire IBO?
>
> As for the high success rate at Lamar, they only
> seem to count those who make it all the way
> through to the final exams, not those who are
> "exited from the programme."
> "9th – 11th 2nd Semester
> • Any student who has a semester average below 75
> will be exited from the program.
> Senior Year: 1st Semester
> • Any student who has a semester average below 70
> in any IB subject will be exited from that class.
> This student will be ineligible to earn the IB
> diploma, will not receive the IB pin, stole, or
> honor cords and will not participate in the
> pinning ceremony.
> • The student may choose to exit to the home
> campus or become a certificate student. If the
> student elects to become a certificate student,
> they will be allowed to complete the IB classes in
> which they have a passing semester average and to
> test in those subjects only."

I meant TOK and EE at Lamar; asking because it wasn't noted as part of the typical course load you posted, and for whatever reason I have been unable to open the link.

So, they exit kids, and don't count the certificate kids when they say, all their students earned the diploma?

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 06:51PM

No Cajones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
>
> Why didn't you put your money where your mouth is
> and speak at the public hearings? You should have
> used your vast persuasive skills and knowledge to
> convince the Board of the supremacy of your
> positions. I wonder why you didn't, considering
> the time you have spent arguing your points here.
> Too bad.

Between the evening meetings demanded by my practice and my children's evening activities, I had multiple conflicts on the dates of the hearings.

There is also the recognition that Stuy wasn't going to listen.

" God grant me the . . . patience to accept the things I cannot change."

Since its clear there was no changing Stuy's mind, my time is better spent changing the identity of the Hunter Mill school board member.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2008 06:52PM by Thomas More.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Who are you? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 07:25PM

Fed Up Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style survey,
> > where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal number
> of
> > representatives in a committee and conduct the
> > research/survey? Is the results too obvious? Uh,
> I
> > forget, they don't want majority rules.
>
> Yes, and maybe we can conduct a survey of what
> should be served at lunch on Thursdays. Then, a
> survey to determine if flip flops should be
> allowed on school grounds. Maybe we should have
> waited until each school had a majority vote of
> parents to integrate. We would still be waiting
> today. As a parent, I have followed this thread
> for months. We live in a representative
> democracy. The school board is an elected body.
> If you and enough people disagree with them, they
> can be voted out of office. The only thing you
> are doing now is telling the children that are
> about to go to this school is that they don't
> belong there and they are getting a subpar
> education. I am sure that is how you would've
> like to have gone through your adolescence.


Come on Fed UP Parent, we know you're not a parent. You sound just like a whining teenager. Fess UP!

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ? ()
Date: February 20, 2008 08:45PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ayun Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Baffled Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ayun Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > oak hill was once considered a reston
> school?
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://dspace.wrlc.org/view/ImgViewer?img=1&url=ht
>
> >
> > >
> > > > tp://dspace.wrlc.org/doc/manifest/2041/2413
> > >
> > >
> > > Huh?? Oak Hill school is located well way
> over
> > on
> > > Kincross Circle in the Chantilly area. How
> was
> > > Oak Hill ES ever considered to be a Reston
> > school
> > > at that time? Did any of the land surveyors
> > have
> > > a problem with their equipment back then?
> This
> > is
> > > interesting.
> >
> >
> > does that description describe the oak hill
> > building? i sounds kind of like sunrise valley,
> > minus the 2 story thing...interesting...
>
>
> Yes pretty interesting. It could be that the
> school was actually one of the Reston schools
> probably the present day Sunrise Valley ES. I
> don't know. But it is interesting how the name
> Oak Hill for a Reston school appeared and dated
> back in 1983?



who cares?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 09:41PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am totally appalled at what our school board
> is doing, right now, on channel
> > 21. This is supposed to be a PUBLIC HEARING,
> yet they are only allowing certain > members of
> the community to speak and, worse, they are are
> limiting what they
> > can address! They cannot speak about their
> school, what they want for their
> > children, or how they feel about redistricting!
> They are being cut off,
> > literally, by the school board and then by their
> microphones! This is
> > horrible. This school board doesn't give a
> rat's butt about these minority
> > people who are trying to tell them how they feel
> and what they want! Brad,
> > Janie, and the Chair, Dan Storck, have all told
> these ESOL people to stop
> > talking about South Lakes and redistricting.
> SHAME on them! This isn't a
> > public hearing!
> >
> > Just when we think our school board can't be any
> more arrogant, they sink to a
> > lower level. SHAME ON THEM!
>
> Is it time to eliminate the elected school board?
>
>
> Isn't there a petition process to go back to
> appointed school boards?
>
> Time to start circulating that petition?

I would sign such a petition immediately. I voted AGAINST an elected school board. These people are NOT public servants, they couldn't care less what the public wants in their schools. They don't seem to have a clue who is paying the bills, or, more likely, they just don't care.

I am so embarrassed that our school board treated people as they treated them last night. I wish I could tell every one of those people who were struggling to speak English that I am very sorry that they were treated so poorly by our school board. It was so sad to see anyone treated that way, but especially for people who are not native speakers, for whom public speaking is not something they are comfortable doing. SHAME on our school board for being such bullies.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 09:53PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After watching the channel 21 broadcast last
> night, it appears the the master plan of Stu and
> Kathy is moving on along as planned. It should
> have been clear to all that new options 2 and 3
> were "never" going to fly. It seems like both Stu
> and Kathy created plans that pretty much
> compromised most of the major objectives in the
> study, including keeping neighborhoods together,
> reduced split feeders, elimination of islands,
> reduced commutes etc etc.
>
> By limiting who could speak to the proposal's on
> the table, and what could be said regarding the RD
> at the hearing last night, it was clear that the
> families in Chantilly Highlands and Fox Mill would
> be out in full force, to denounce the 2 new plans.
> (I wonder where Stu was? Perhaps he was at home,
> working on a new alternative)
>
> Suddendly, the SB can now say that Option #1
> really was the best plan all along, based on
> "public input".
>
> I am amazed at the way that this entire RD study
> has been conducted, and it is so clear that
> decisions were made many months ago regarding the
> RD and who was going to be sent to SL.
>
> The sheer amount of time, money, energy that this
> process has sapped from the community is just mind
> boggling! The stress that has been created over
> the last few months as a result of this RD is sure
> to result in many future divorces, illnesses, and
> depression related health issues.
>
> The damage and distrust that has been created
> amongst those neighborhoods that have been
> selected for this boundary study, is huge, and I
> believe that many friendships have been
> permanently damaged. It is a process that the SB
> planned from the very beginning, to create
> alternatives that they knew would pit community
> against community. Break Fox Mill into 2? Split
> Floris into 2? Split Chantilly Highlands into 2?
> Put McNair in Herndon after the feedback from the
> prior meetings and feedback? Send Navy to Oakton?
> These are some of the best ideas that our SB and
> staff could come up with?
>
> If these SB members are responsible for the
> education that our children are to get, we are all
> in very big trouble! The incompetence that has
> been demonstrated by this board is
> unbelievable.The under the table political
> dealings are just as bad. The SB members have been
> "elected", to represent all of us, not just South
> Lakes.
>
> It has been posted by some on this Forum that a
> majority opinion does not constitute the "right"
> opinion as it relates to this RD. I disagree. Were
> our SB members not elected into their positions by
> a "majority of votes" by the public?
>
> I hope that there is someone would has been
> documenting everything that has been said during
> this process, as it would make a great documentary
> on how "not" to conduct a boundary study.

Great post.

I agree, they will go with proposal 1, the staff proposal, minus Navy. That will leave Oakton with enough empty seats for everyone who wants to pupil place back into Oakton. A win-win. Sort of.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:02PM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does a FCPS school board meeting have in
> common with Cuba?
> In both places dissent is not allowed.
>
> We watched the meeting on television and it was
> surreal how the sound would go off if the speaker
> (such as a Floris parent) would stray into
> forbidden topics such as IB. What kind of control
> freak idea is that?
> Also, maybe the woman who announces the speakers
> should learn how to pronounce ethnic names. We
> finally quit watching at about 11:30. Anything
> good happen after that?

NO. It only got worse, with worse tactics and worse manners from our elected officials. Their behavior toward those struggling speakers was deplorable. I have never seen elected officials treat the public with more disdain. It was so clear that they have made their decision about South Lakes and did want to hear what the public had to say about it.

I wish I could apologize to every one of those speakers for the deplorable way they were treated by our school board. It hurt my heart to see human beings, minorities, struggling to speak out for their children, treated in that manner. Our school board should be ashamed of themselves.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:11PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1 GPA.
> GFY.

OH, I am sorry. Now she won't be able to take Calculus, much less Quantum Physics, linear algebra, or multi var. Nor will she have the opportunity to take engineering classes or to be placed in a internship where she can work with real engineers. So many lost opportunities. That's so sad.

Why would her parents let her make such a decision, limiting her options high school and in college? If she really wants to be an engineer, she's not going to be competitive. What a shame.

Her emotional/social problems must have been compelling. I am sorry to hear this. I hope that she will be all right.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: not a win:win ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:14PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I agree, they will go with proposal 1, the staff
> proposal, minus Navy. That will leave Oakton with
> enough empty seats for everyone who wants to pupil
> place back into Oakton. A win-win. Sort of.

except that Madison North gets royally scr**wed and forced into a failing middle school and a failing high school against the community's clear unanimous opposition

aka victory to stu who gets warm bodies and jane who protects her pets - all at the price of Madison North

Thank you SLHS-warm-body-squad, Thank you Herndon-throw-your-neighbors-under-the bus-brigade, Thank you SB

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:14PM

Who are you? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fed Up Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style
> survey,
> > > where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal
> number
> > of
> > > representatives in a committee and conduct
> the
> > > research/survey? Is the results too obvious?
> Uh,
> > I
> > > forget, they don't want majority rules.
> >
> > Yes, and maybe we can conduct a survey of what
> > should be served at lunch on Thursdays. Then,
> a
> > survey to determine if flip flops should be
> > allowed on school grounds. Maybe we should
> have
> > waited until each school had a majority vote of
> > parents to integrate. We would still be
> waiting
> > today. As a parent, I have followed this
> thread
> > for months. We live in a representative
> > democracy. The school board is an elected body.
>
> > If you and enough people disagree with them,
> they
> > can be voted out of office. The only thing you
> > are doing now is telling the children that are
> > about to go to this school is that they don't
> > belong there and they are getting a subpar
> > education. I am sure that is how you would've
> > like to have gone through your adolescence.
>
>
> Come on Fed UP Parent, we know you're not a
> parent. You sound just like a whining teenager.
> Fess UP!

You mean just like TJ Shales aka Stephanie? Bless their hearts, they are trying! Like so many teens, they love their school, and like most teens, they can be very passionate!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:18PM

not a win:win Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I agree, they will go with proposal 1, the
> staff
> > proposal, minus Navy. That will leave Oakton
> with
> > enough empty seats for everyone who wants to
> pupil
> > place back into Oakton. A win-win. Sort of.
>
> except that Madison North gets royally scr**wed
> and forced into a failing middle school and a
> failing high school against the community's clear
> unanimous opposition
>
> aka victory to stu who gets warm bodies and jane
> who protects her pets - all at the price of
> Madison North
>
> Thank you SLHS-warm-body-squad, Thank you
> Herndon-throw-your-neighbors-under-the
> bus-brigade, Thank you SB

ALL completely true. Madison North gets royally screwed. Since it's not Stu's district, he doesn't care. Since Madison/Thoreau are not Janie's schools, she doesn't care either. PLUS, Stu and Janie both win because it screws so many republicans. That's definitely a plus for them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 20, 2008 10:20PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What does a FCPS school board meeting have in
> > common with Cuba?
> > In both places dissent is not allowed.
> >
> > We watched the meeting on television and it was
> > surreal how the sound would go off if the
> speaker
> > (such as a Floris parent) would stray into
> > forbidden topics such as IB. What kind of
> control
> > freak idea is that?
> > Also, maybe the woman who announces the
> speakers
> > should learn how to pronounce ethnic names. We
> > finally quit watching at about 11:30. Anything
> > good happen after that?
>
> NO. It only got worse, with worse tactics and
> worse manners from our elected officials. Their
> behavior toward those struggling speakers was
> deplorable. I have never seen elected officials
> treat the public with more disdain. It was so
> clear that they have made their decision about
> South Lakes and did want to hear what the public
> had to say about it.
>
> I wish I could apologize to every one of those
> speakers for the deplorable way they were treated
> by our school board. It hurt my heart to see
> human beings, minorities, struggling to speak out
> for their children, treated in that manner. Our
> school board should be ashamed of themselves.

Neen, you are too funny. This from someone who is often horrible and mean. I know you care sooo much about these people---NOT.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AFMD ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:22PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree, they will go with proposal 1, the staff
> proposal, minus Navy. That will leave Oakton with
> enough empty seats for everyone who wants to pupil
> place back into Oakton. A win-win. Sort of.


They can't go with Opt. 1 w/o Navy. I suppose they could do that but all hell would really break loose if they did because it would violate a MAJOR objective of the RD, reducing enrollment at "overcrowded" CHS and Westfields while simultaneously filling the underenrolled SL. This was cited by Tisdadt as the reason they didn't include Langley, etc. If you don't pull navy from CHS who do you pull?

The real question to me is whether the inconvenience to Navy being RD to Oakton is enough to kill it. I wouldn't have thought so a couple of weeks ago but you never know.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 20, 2008 10:23PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1
> GPA.
> > GFY.
>
> OH, I am sorry. Now she won't be able to take
> Calculus, much less Quantum Physics, linear
> algebra, or multi var. Nor will she have the
> opportunity to take engineering classes or to be
> placed in a internship where she can work with
> real engineers. So many lost opportunities.
> That's so sad.
>
> Why would her parents let her make such a
> decision, limiting her options high school and in
> college? If she really wants to be an engineer,
> she's not going to be competitive. What a shame.
>
>
> Her emotional/social problems must have been
> compelling. I am sorry to hear this. I hope that
> she will be all right.


Neen, what kind of projection is this? Is this what happened to you as a teenager? That explains a lot. You poor poor thing. Did you have to become a waitress instead of an engineer because you didn't go to TJ? Tsk Tsk.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:29PM

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1
> GPA.
> > GFY.
>
>
> The young lady who spoke on the RD at the second
> public hearing--and attended several of the town
> meetings--noted that she switched from TJ to SL
> because of the commute.
>
> She is obviously happy at SL now...she talked
> enthusiastically about writing a 15 page paper in
> math...which may make her exceptional in more ways
> than one. She was very impressive, mature and
> well-spoken...definitely the kind of poster child
> that SL needs.

There is no real math student who would be excited about writing a 15 page paper for a MATH class. That's ridiculous. That's not learning math. She'd be better off taking calculus at Oakton, assuming it's true that she wants to be a real engineer.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:32PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TJ Shales Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1
> > GPA.
> > > GFY.
> >
> > OH, I am sorry. Now she won't be able to take
> > Calculus, much less Quantum Physics, linear
> > algebra, or multi var. Nor will she have the
> > opportunity to take engineering classes or to
> be
> > placed in a internship where she can work with
> > real engineers. So many lost opportunities.
> > That's so sad.
> >
> > Why would her parents let her make such a
> > decision, limiting her options high school and
> in
> > college? If she really wants to be an
> engineer,
> > she's not going to be competitive. What a
> shame.
> >
> >
> > Her emotional/social problems must have been
> > compelling. I am sorry to hear this. I hope
> that
> > she will be all right.
>
>
> Neen, what kind of projection is this? Is this
> what happened to you as a teenager? That explains
> a lot. You poor poor thing. Did you have to
> become a waitress instead of an engineer because
> you didn't go to TJ? Tsk Tsk.

Hahaha.......nope. I was never a math kid and never a waitress. Nor did I ever aspire to be either.

Sorry, but "TJ Shales" story never made a lick of sense. Either her imaginary friend couldn't cut it at TJ academically, socially, or emotionally. You are free to speculate on which, just as I did.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 10:38PM

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I agree, they will go with proposal 1, the
> staff
> > proposal, minus Navy. That will leave Oakton
> with
> > enough empty seats for everyone who wants to
> pupil
> > place back into Oakton. A win-win. Sort of.
>
>
> They can't go with Opt. 1 w/o Navy. I suppose
> they could do that but all hell would really break
> loose if they did because it would violate a MAJOR
> objective of the RD, reducing enrollment at
> "overcrowded" CHS and Westfields while
> simultaneously filling the underenrolled SL. This
> was cited by Tisdadt as the reason they didn't
> include Langley, etc. If you don't pull navy from
> CHS who do you pull?
>
> The real question to me is whether the
> inconvenience to Navy being RD to Oakton is enough
> to kill it. I wouldn't have thought so a couple
> of weeks ago but you never know.

Sorry, I don't know what to call the proposal. It was called number 5, but that was before scenarios 2 and 3, or 11b and 12. I think that the SB will choose the South Lakes option, minus any of Navy going to Oakton. They will decide that CHS isn't THAT crowded, or will eventually be redistricted to some other school, or some other such excuse. Staff has said that Oakton will be ok without being 'backfilled'. It seems clear to me that Kathy has decided that it's more important to not move Navy than to reduce overcrowding at Chantilly. Stu doesn't care about Oakton or Chantilly since they aren't his schools, so he'll agree to leaving Navy out of the mix. That's just my guess. Your guesses may vary. We'll all know tomorrow night.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2008 10:39PM by Neen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 20, 2008 10:38PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > TJ Shales Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > The TJ student who returned to SL had a 4.1
> > > GPA.
> > > > GFY.
> > >
> > > OH, I am sorry. Now she won't be able to
> take
> > > Calculus, much less Quantum Physics, linear
> > > algebra, or multi var. Nor will she have the
> > > opportunity to take engineering classes or to
> > be
> > > placed in a internship where she can work
> with
> > > real engineers. So many lost opportunities.
> > > That's so sad.
> > >
> > > Why would her parents let her make such a
> > > decision, limiting her options high school
> and
> > in
> > > college? If she really wants to be an
> > engineer,
> > > she's not going to be competitive. What a
> > shame.
> > >
> > >
> > > Her emotional/social problems must have been
> > > compelling. I am sorry to hear this. I hope
> > that
> > > she will be all right.
> >
> >
> > Neen, what kind of projection is this? Is this
> > what happened to you as a teenager? That
> explains
> > a lot. You poor poor thing. Did you have to
> > become a waitress instead of an engineer
> because
> > you didn't go to TJ? Tsk Tsk.
>
> Hahaha.......nope. I was never a math kid and
> never a waitress. Nor did I ever aspire to be
> either.
>
> Sorry, but "TJ Shales" story never made a lick of
> sense. Either her imaginary friend couldn't cut
> it at TJ academically, socially, or emotionally.
> You are free to speculate on which, just as I did.


I know it may be hard to comprehend that her friend would make a different choice than you would. These kinds of things are difficult for someone for whom empathy is a challenge, who can't put themselves in someone else's shoes. That doesn't mean that that friend is imaginary.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: moreIntrigue ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:02PM

The school board meeting for 2/21 is cancelled!! Stu and Kathy are up to their dirty tricks again? Wonder what dubious conspiracy these 2 are hatching against ffx county kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AFMD ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:04PM

I don't think we'll know anything tomorrow night, the work session is cancelled.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 20, 2008 11:06PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why SLHS cannot conduct a Woodson style survey,
> where pro-IB and pro-AP folks have equal number of
> representatives in a committee and conduct the
> research/survey? Is the results too obvious? Uh, I
> forget, they don't want majority rules.


If enough parents within a school raised their voices the sound would be heard. If a true majority of the school population gets behind AP rather than IB then it would likely happen. Not overnight but eventually. It would be naive to think that a group of vocal outsiders could make the change from afar. If the RD happens and enough parents want a change the school, then change would occur. However, the requested change would have to reflect the will of a true majority not a vocal minority.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:08PM

>>>I know it may be hard to comprehend that her friend would make a different choice than you would. These kinds of things are difficult for someone for whom empathy is a challenge, who can't put themselves in someone else's shoes. That doesn't mean that that friend is imaginary.<<<

Yes, I feel very bad for the young woman, as I said. It must have been very difficult for her to make a decision to change high schools. Students rarely do that, without pretty extreme distress. That's why I feel bad for her and hope that she will be all right. That's exactly what I said, several times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2008 11:57PM by Neen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:13PM

moreIntrigue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The school board meeting for 2/21 is cancelled!! Stu and Kathy are up to their
> dirty tricks again? Wonder what dubious conspiracy these 2 are hatching against
> ffx county kids.

The forecast is for freezing rain starting about 5 pm continuing past midnight.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 20, 2008 11:21PM

Another Fed Up Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We did not elect these people kings and queens.
> To say this is a representative democracy, as if
> that allows politicians the right to make
> decisions with no basis is just inaccurate. They
> have a responsibility to consider their
> constituents input. If they did not they would
> not be holding public hearings nor would they be
> spending hour upon hour meeting with various
> groups of concerned parents.
>
> You go on to say:
>
> The only thing you are doing now is telling the
> children that are about to go to this school is
> that they don't belong there and they are getting
> a subpar education.
>
> Well for most of us this is inaccurate. We are
> not planning on sending our child to 'this school'
> so we certainly are not telling our 8th graders
> that they may receive a subpar education.
>
> I do not believe SLHS offers a subpar education. I
> believe it offers an on par education. However IB
> is not a program that suits the majority of
> children if it were it would be in the majority of
> schools. This may come down simply to a lack of
> understanding. On the surface it just comes
> across as less straight forward. It is not the
> meat and potatos we are used to. I think Bruce
> Butler is an amazing man and he has my respect as
> does his school. For most of us the issue is
> programatic. That is all.

IB should not be considered an issue, just a characteristic of SLHS. It is a program of study that FCPS elected to incorporate into its system. Based on the decision to offer either IB or AP in each FCPS high school, the SB provides it seal of approval on the relative value of both programs. Therefore they should not place much emphasis on whether a move sends kids from IB to AP or vice versa. If the SB feels either program is inferior they should take the necessary steps to remove the program from FCPS. More importantly if parents in the county feel the program is inadequate they should rally to remove from all schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: jumped the shark ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:22PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>I know it may be hard to comprehend that her
> friend would make a different choice than you
> would. These kinds of things are difficult for
> someone for whom empathy is a challenge, who can't
> put themselves in someone else's shoes. That
> doesn't mean that that friend is imaginary.<<<
>
> Yes, I feel very bad for the young woman, as I
> said. It must have been very difficult for her to
> make a decision to change high schools. Students
> rarely do that, without pretty extreme distress.
> That's why I feel bad for her and how that she
> will be all right. That's exactly what I said,
> several times.

Neen, your transparent smarm is showing. Give it a rest. Your schtick is old and tired.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:22PM

ItsTheMasterSchedule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If enough parents within a school raised their voices the sound would be heard.
> If a true majority of the school population gets behind AP rather than IB then
> it would likely happen. Not overnight but eventually. It would be naive to
> think that a group of vocal outsiders could make the change from afar. If the > RD happens and enough parents want a change the school, then change would
> occur. However, the requested change would have to reflect the will of a true > majority not a vocal minority.

Some might suggest that it is a vocal minority, and a sympathetic predisposed SB member, that is keeping IB at SL now.

I don't share your optimism. It's doubtful that we can get Stuy to even ask the question in a fashion that isn't completely fixed in advanced.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: jumped the shark ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:23PM

moreIntrigue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The school board meeting for 2/21 is cancelled!!
> Stu and Kathy are up to their dirty tricks again?
> Wonder what dubious conspiracy these 2 are
> hatching against ffx county kids.

Black helicopter time.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: No Cajones ()
Date: February 20, 2008 11:26PM

Thomas More Wrote:
>
> Some might suggest that it is a vocal minority,
> and a sympathetic predisposed SB member, that is
> keeping IB at SL now.
>
> I don't share your optimism. It's doubtful that
> we can get Stuy to even ask the question in a
> fashion that isn't completely fixed in advanced.

For all of your vaunted experience and evening meetings and what-not, you sure have been ineffective in making your wishes known and rallying folks to your side. Hmmm...I wonder why?

Options: ReplyQuote
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