HomeFairfax General ForumArrest/Ticket SearchWiki newPictures/VideosChatArticlesLinksAbout
Fairfax County General :  Fairfax Underground fairfax underground logo
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Pages: PreviousFirst...107108109110111112113114115116117...LastNext
Current Page: 112 of 189
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:36PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, TJ takes a stab at the theory of
> knowledge platform - i.e., by emphasizing the
> importance of inter-connections between
> disciplines - in its IBET program taught to its
> 9th graders. I am not sure that it in any way
> elevates critical thinking, and its promise of
> crystalizing interconnections while stimulating
> critical thinking goes largely unfilled. Don't
> get me wrong - I think IBET is a great program -
> it attracts some great teachers - the most
> important part of any school, bar none - but its
> lustre exists for reasons largely unrelated to
> academics. With kids coming from all over a 5
> county area, IBET helps form social and group
> identiies that ease the social transition to the
> school - and from that perspective - it is helpful
> and a positive. I mention this because all
> arguments over curricula need to be extremely
> factually based.
>
> The IB program appears to offer the same promise -
> and sometimes that promise is fulfilled with
> exceedingly high achieving students (note high
> achieving is the right term - I would think that
> students can (and do) survive an IB Diploma
> program in the absence of a genius or near genius
> IQ, which is not the case at TJ). I see the
> program, and it would have been a good program for
> me - I would have liked it and its breadth - but I
> read really, really fast and I have never spent
> more than 20 hours a week in any academic activity
> - ever - so its make work components and depth of
> study would have been fine for me. But I also
> turned down several engineering programs in my
> youth - despite testing really well in those
> fields - because I couldn't imagine doing that
> work for a minute and really tilted away from that
> kind of focus - the kind that a heavier duty AP
> program presents. Likewise with today's students,
> IB seems like a program for those competent
> students that know themselves well, and believe it
> caters to their strengths. In this vein, the
> program has the hallmarks of a niche, European
> (meaning really for the elite) style education,
> and is a difficult sell to a middle class
> population seeking a technically oriented,
> American style, pluralistic education. Once
> again it might be helpful to remind folks that one
> can easily be supportive of the IB program while
> at the same time making clear is it not something
> that their children would like or benefit from - a
> grasp for mutual exclusivity is reflective of
> emotionalism and a false desire for symmetry that
> doesn't accomplish anything.
>
> IB is what it is - if the program doesn't work for
> significant numbers of people, then SL and others
> need to implement other market based solutions -
> or alternatively, be eminently happy with its
> mission and its lesser population of students.
> Intense marketing of how great the program is just
> won't cut it - it is just not for the masses.
> Put another way, the IB issue will be around
> irrespective of redistricting, so the issue is not
> really one of redistricting but rather one of
> reaching a collective school identity and of that
> the school discerning its mission. In the end SLHS
> will in one way or another come to grips with the
> fact that there is a cause and effect between
> curriculum, excellence and population - and that
> is neither a bad thing nor a good thing - it is
> what it is - and it certainly would be healthy for
> that institution to evaluate whether more students
> comports with its chosen identity - it may indeed
> not - even if there is a primordial instinct to
> fill a glitzy new structure.

You need to clarify what you mean by "IB program." You are presenting it as if it were a single entity, a monolith. That is simply not true. MYIB -- the 9th and 10th-grade courses -- are exactly like honors classes. The SL and HL courses generally offered in 11th and 12th grade are just like honors and AP courses. Mix and match. Take the ones you want and leave the rest. Stand-alone courses.

The only difference is that there is a layer added to IB that AP neglects. It is a philosophy that says learning should be holistic and "hang together." It is ADDITIONAL to, not INSTEAD of, what AP offers, and students benefit from this indirectly. Teachers are supposed to collaborate so that there is some connection made between courses where feasible and where it makes sense. An English and History class might collaborate, just as the HUM classes do at TJ. Furthermore, there is an emphasis on global views -- literature is drawn from the world and not just the US, for example. US-philes hate this. That is clear from their posts and UN-takeover rants.

None of this in any way can be used to mean IB is a "better fit." Nobody using the term "better fit" has been able to explain what that means such that it irrefutably means IB is inferior for their kid. (Unless they use arguments put forth like "IB is humanities based and not science," which is ONLY used by people who have never experienced South Lakes and has been discredited, but these people aren't listening.) And nobody seems to be able to explain why the beasts at South Lakes don't leave once they get there and get to know IB. They leave before they give it a shot. Not once they learn to love it.

It is really, really tiresome to try to discuss IB with people who hate it, sight unseen. Tiresome.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:39PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales,
>
> Thank you for pointing out one of the vertical
> articulation problems for students who take
> Algebra 1 in 7th grade and then attend an IB high
> school. These kids normally take geometry in 8th,
> Algebra 2/Trig in 9th, Precalc in 10th. In an AP
> high school, they'd take Calculus AB or Calculus
> BC in 11th. But in an IB high school in FCPS,
> they would take HL Math in 11th and 12th - where
> they would spend most of their junior year
> relearning precalculus.
>
>
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> AP BC Calc isn't needed. IB HL Math --
> > the two year course that basically is AP
> > pre-calc/calc combined -- contains all the BC
> > calculus (with the calculus unit that most
> > teachers adopt.)

I'm not going to take time to tell you why you're wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You need to figure this out for yourself or call the school and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB SL or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:50PM

Why do we have to figure this out? We didn't choose IB. The key word is choice. There's no point argueing whether AP is better than IB or vice versa.

"I'm not going to take time to tell you why you're wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You need to figure this out for yourself or call the school and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB SL or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)
"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2008 02:51PM by Floris.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: getouttahe ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:55PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do we have to figure this out? We didn't
> choose IB. The key word is choice. There's no
> point argueing whether AP is better than IB or
> vice versa.
>
> "I'm not going to take time to tell you why you're
> wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You need to
> figure this out for yourself or call the school
> and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB SL
> or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)
> "


Why do you need to figure it out? Because you are the ones going out of your way to avoid South Lakes when it is really not necessary.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ChoiceNot ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:59PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do we have to figure this out? We didn't
> choose IB. The key word is choice. There's no
> point argueing whether AP is better than IB or
> vice versa.
>
> "I'm not going to take time to tell you why you're
> wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You need to
> figure this out for yourself or call the school
> and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB SL
> or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)
> "

Choice choice choice choice choice. You are desperately misguided. You chose to live in Fairfax county. Therefore, you did not choose your school. You do not get to "vote" on which school to go to. The only choice you have is between a public, countywide system, and a private or home school. Period. No amount of "our schools our choice" will make a dent in this, and no amount of repetition will convince a single board member. But go ahead and bore them with this anyway. They will be tuned out.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: nah ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:02PM

Well said ChoiceNot

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ib kid ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:06PM

YOO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ib kid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So ... the well-informed young man who took
> > History of the Americas and felt it prepared
> him
> > to vote for the first time last week .... may I
> > ask for whom he cast his vote?
>
>
> who cares. why does it matter.

It matters because everything I have found on IB indicates it teaches kids to be good little socialists.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:09PM

getouttahe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why do we have to figure this out? We didn't
> > choose IB. The key word is choice. There's no
> > point argueing whether AP is better than IB or
> > vice versa.
> >
> > "I'm not going to take time to tell you why
> you're
> > wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You need
> to
> > figure this out for yourself or call the school
> > and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB
> SL
> > or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)
> > "
>
>
> Why do you need to figure it out? Because you are
> the ones going out of your way to avoid South
> Lakes when it is really not necessary.

Another new "screeder" on the block. Floris is right. We have choices. What is it called when a selected group of kids are forced to a school that they didn't have a choice to? Please answer yes or no if this is a moral thing to have: Having choices.

Capice?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ChoiceNot ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:14PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> getouttahe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why do we have to figure this out? We didn't
> > > choose IB. The key word is choice. There's no
> > > point argueing whether AP is better than IB
> or
> > > vice versa.
> > >
> > > "I'm not going to take time to tell you why
> > you're
> > > wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You
> need
> > to
> > > figure this out for yourself or call the
> school
> > > and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB
> > SL
> > > or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)
> > > "
> >
> >
> > Why do you need to figure it out? Because you
> are
> > the ones going out of your way to avoid South
> > Lakes when it is really not necessary.
>
> Another new "screeder" on the block. Floris is
> right. We have choices. What is it called when
> a selected group of kids are forced to a school
> that they didn't have a choice to? Please answer
> yes or no if this is a moral thing to have:
> Having choices.
>
> Capice?

All those kids FORCED to Westfield and Carson when they opened. And such a fury over it! Not. Tsk tsk tsk. Immoral.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: YOO ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:14PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> getouttahe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why do we have to figure this out? We didn't
> > > choose IB. The key word is choice. There's no
> > > point argueing whether AP is better than IB
> or
> > > vice versa.
> > >
> > > "I'm not going to take time to tell you why
> > you're
> > > wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You
> need
> > to
> > > figure this out for yourself or call the
> school
> > > and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB
> > SL
> > > or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)
> > > "
> >
> >
> > Why do you need to figure it out? Because you
> are
> > the ones going out of your way to avoid South
> > Lakes when it is really not necessary.
>
> Another new "screeder" on the block. Floris is
> right. We have choices. What is it called when
> a selected group of kids are forced to a school
> that they didn't have a choice to? Please answer
> yes or no if this is a moral thing to have:
> Having choices.
>
> Capice?


its called P-U-B-L-I-C S-C-H-O-O-L

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Let's look at the data ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:19PM

ChoiceNot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why do we have to figure this out? We didn't
> > choose IB. The key word is choice. There's no
> > point argueing whether AP is better than IB or
> > vice versa.
> >
> > "I'm not going to take time to tell you why
> you're
> > wrong. You won't listen to me anyway. You need
> to
> > figure this out for yourself or call the school
> > and talk to the math chair. (You can begin IB
> SL
> > or HL in 10th grade. Capice?)
> > "
>
> Choice choice choice choice choice. You are
> desperately misguided. You chose to live in
> Fairfax county. Therefore, you did not choose your
> school. You do not get to "vote" on which school
> to go to. The only choice you have is between a
> public, countywide system, and a private or home
> school. Period. No amount of "our schools our
> choice" will make a dent in this, and no amount
> of repetition will convince a single board member.
> But go ahead and bore them with this anyway. They
> will be tuned out.


You are absolutely correct, families don't buy into a school when they buy a home. But, it would be thoughtless and inconsiderate to disregard the fact that MOST people buy a home in a neighborhood where they want their children to go to school. For instance, I would expect that anybody who recently bought in the South Lakes area has made the educated CHOICE for their child to attend an IB school. The same goes for families in Fox Mill, Floris...and, well, everywhere. We all look at our local schools when we buy homes. Is it a surprise (and should you be angry) that those of us who bought a home in the Oakton district, and are all of sudden being yanked to South Lakes, aren't happy?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSbullies ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:25PM

Printing costs for the same CAPS speech over and over again $1,000
Renting the The Potomac Ballroom at the Hilton for planning session $750
Cost of buying matching yellow t-shirts $500
Cost of buying posters for tonight's event $300
Cost of the CAPS website $100

Watching the yellow shirts on Apple 21 tonight.....priceless

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Choice ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:27PM

ChoiceNot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Choice choice choice choice choice. You are
> desperately misguided. You chose to live in
> Fairfax county. Therefore, you did not choose your
> school. You do not get to "vote" on which school
> to go to. The only choice you have is between a
> public, countywide system, and a private or home
> school. Period. No amount of "our schools our
> choice" will make a dent in this, and no amount
> of repetition will convince a single board member.
> But go ahead and bore them with this anyway. They
> will be tuned out.

Maybe you are correct, however, do you really think that most people view it this way?

Do you not think that most of the population would overwhelmingly prefer to have a choice?

Do you not think it would be reasonable to afford people to have their choice in schools as designated by where they choose to live unless there is an overwhelming need to redistrict that cannot be solved by any other solution?
Would most people support this or not support it?

Are not the "clients" of the people who make these rules, the parents, students, and other taxpayers of this community?

Why are they not doing more to ensure integrity of choice?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ib kid ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:27PM

If anyone wants a real eye-opener regarding IB and why it's so precious to some in the face of overwhelming opposition of so many and evidence of it being such a poor fit for Fairfax County, go to www.edwatch.org and search for "International Baccalaureate." I can't stop reading, it's unreal. The IBO website itself is jaw-dropping, too. Don't take my word for it, go see for yourself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: bullies_SL ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:30PM

CAPSbullies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Printing costs for the same CAPS speech over and
> over again $1,000
> Renting the The Potomac Ballroom at the Hilton for
> planning session $750
> Cost of buying matching yellow t-shirts $500
> Cost of buying posters for tonight's event $300
> Cost of the CAPS website $100
>
> Watching the yellow shirts on Apple 21
> tonight.....priceless

Seems like you have lost decency , so here you go

What do you have at South Lakes High

1) Crappy schools with crappy scores.

2) Dropping enrollment over last 10 years.

3) Everybody (even Reston parents) avoiding you like a plague.

4) Better schools like aldrin given to Herndon by your own Stu Gibson unlawfully.

I can go on and on ...

The only thing that is going in your favor is that SB member Stu Gibson who is taking your side ....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: hahaha ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:30PM

Choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Maybe you are correct, however, do you really
> think that most people view it this way?
>
> Do you not think that most of the population would
> overwhelmingly prefer to have a choice?
>
> Do you not think it would be reasonable to afford
> people to have their choice in schools as
> designated by where they choose to live unless
> there is an overwhelming need to redistrict that
> cannot be solved by any other solution?
> Would most people support this or not support it?
>
> Are not the "clients" of the people who make these
> rules, the parents, students, and other taxpayers
> of this community?
>
> Why are they not doing more to ensure integrity of
> choice?


Unfortunately this is not how the world works and it is not going to start now in order to convinience you.


Watching you STILL get redistricted after all this effort...even more priceless.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSbullies ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:33PM

Thanks for making the point. Not one word in that last post about IB. Interesting.......

Thanks for addressing the real issue instead of complaining about IB ONCE AGAIN!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:56PM

TJShales says

"Teachers are supposed to collaborate so that there is some connection made between courses where feasible and where it makes sense. An English and History class might collaborate, "

This is exactly what happens in the AP world history / Emglish 10 honors program at Oakton. But you probably didn't know this. No worries. Once you get to know AP in depth, I'm sure you'll love it. Until then, who needs to hear from you and your ignorant opinion? (How was that? Trying to capture the tone and style)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: February 19, 2008 03:57PM

Bottom line, IB should be a volunteer program. Let's use Japanese Immersion as an example. Fox Mill has a very successful JI program and at the beginning grade, 50% of the students enrolled in. Floris folks are upset when they lost the JI program. As a volunteer program, it's very popular and desired.

Now, what will happen if you turn Floris or Fox Mill into a JI only school, when the majority of the county and country is offered education in English? BTW, the JI program is completely equal to the rest of the programs, except it's taught in Japanese.

If this RD goes through, FFX will be the first one forcing pupils to take IB courses. Hmm, interesting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:03PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bottom line, IB should be a volunteer program.
> Let's use Japanese Immersion as an example. Fox
> Mill has a very successful JI program and at the
> beginning grade, 50% of the students enrolled in.
> Floris folks are upset when they lost the JI
> program. As a volunteer program, it's very popular
> and desired.
>
> Now, what will happen if you turn Floris or Fox
> Mill into a JI only school, when the majority of
> the county and country is offered education in
> English? BTW, the JI program is completely equal
> to the rest of the programs, except it's taught in
> Japanese.
>
> If this RD goes through, FFX will be the first one
> forcing pupils to take IB courses. Hmm,
> interesting.

Hmm interesting. When Fox Mill comes to South Lakes, JI students will find that South Lakes offers Japanese and is prepared to adjust the program so JI students can continue with their language at their level. Hmmm. Wonder if Oakton does this?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:04PM

Oh and hmmm interesting. GT kids are forced to go back to schools that include general ed. Too bad. Shouldn't they all be allowed to vote to go to TJ?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Another Brick in the Wall ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:05PM

hahaha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Choice Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Maybe you are correct, however, do you really
> > think that most people view it this way?
> >
> > Do you not think that most of the population
> would
> > overwhelmingly prefer to have a choice?
> >
> > Do you not think it would be reasonable to
> afford
> > people to have their choice in schools as
> > designated by where they choose to live unless
> > there is an overwhelming need to redistrict
> that
> > cannot be solved by any other solution?
> > Would most people support this or not support
> it?
> >
> > Are not the "clients" of the people who make
> these
> > rules, the parents, students, and other
> taxpayers
> > of this community?
> >
> > Why are they not doing more to ensure integrity
> of
> > choice?
>
>
> Unfortunately this is not how the world works and
> it is not going to start now in order to
> convinience you.
>
>
> Watching you STILL get redistricted after all this
> effort...even more priceless.


It looks like the petty tyrants are out in force today.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSbullies ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:09PM

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> It looks like the petty tyrants are out in force
> today.

Yep and they are all on their way to protest in front of Luther Jackson Middle School as directed by the CAPS leadership.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:10PM

Baffled Wrote:
> ... What if there are students out in the
> west county who want to participate in the IB
> program if SL converts to AP? ...

-------------
Fair question.

Those of you who love IB: If South Lakes reverts to AP, what would you prefer?
1) Add an Academy IB Diploma Programme (five periods per day, junior and senior year) at South Lakes.
2) No Academy at South Lakes; go along with the shift to AP.
3) Pupil place to Robinson or Marshall.
4) Other?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:14PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJShales says
>
> "Teachers are supposed to collaborate so that
> there is some connection made between courses
> where feasible and where it makes sense. An
> English and History class might collaborate, "
>
> This is exactly what happens in the AP world
> history / Emglish 10 honors program at Oakton.
> But you probably didn't know this. No worries.
> Once you get to know AP in depth, I'm sure you'll
> love it. Until then, who needs to hear from you
> and your ignorant opinion? (How was that? Trying
> to capture the tone and style)

Here's the difference. Now pay attention. Nobody at South Lakes is castigating AP or Oakton. Nobody is purporting to know every detail about AP if they haven't experienced it (though most South Lakes supporters have an excellent, in-depth understanding of AP, partly because they have experienced it themselves, or one of their kids has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and unavoidable, and because South Lakes families have very close friends all across the "boundary" lines etc.) But we are not denigrating AP and we are not trying to sell untruths as truths about it. We are not bashing Oakton. We are not making comparisions that try to force AP into submission.

Finally, all of the kids I know would absolutely THRIVE with AP. They are thriving with IB. Kids who do well with one will do well with another. Have faith in your children. They are the ones who need to know you do.

BTW, did you happen to hear the lengthy pregnant silence at last night's CAPS meeting when someone asked if South Lakes were AP would they go? Yes? And that someone else said the problem was really Hughes? Then you know what REALLY underlies this opposition. It has nothing to do with IB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:17PM

Oh, and CAPS is complaining that pupil-placing kids into AP schools would require that they take AP? Hmmm. Interesting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:19PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> > ... What if there are students out in the
> > west county who want to participate in the IB
> > program if SL converts to AP? ...
>
> -------------
> Fair question.
>
> Those of you who love IB: If South Lakes reverts
> to AP, what would you prefer?
> 1) Add an Academy IB Diploma Programme (five
> periods per day, junior and senior year) at South
> Lakes.
> 2) No Academy at South Lakes; go along with the
> shift to AP.
> 3) Pupil place to Robinson or Marshall.
> 4) Other?

That would be 1,100 kids "pupil-placing" for IB.

FR, what is the College Board paying you to get rid of its rival? Any other tactics under your vest?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:22PM

That shows a need for another magnet school.
And MAJORITY of GT kids go back to AP schools.

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh and hmmm interesting. GT kids are forced to go
> back to schools that include general ed. Too bad.
> Shouldn't they all be allowed to vote to go to TJ?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:26PM

CAPSbullies Wrote:
> > It looks like the petty tyrants are out in
> > force today.
>
> Yep and they are all on their way to protest in
> front of Luther Jackson Middle School as directed
> by the CAPS leadership.

You really don't get it, do you? These parents are not being forced by "bullies." Many parents WANT to do everything they can to keep their children in the school and academic program of their choice.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: gaygayagyagyyayagayg ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:30PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You really don't get it, do you? These parents are
> not being forced by "bullies." Many parents WANT
> to do everything they can to keep their children
> in the school and academic program of their
> choice.


Oh just like you never understood that so many South Lakes students WANTED and were not forced to come to meetings and hearings to defend their school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:31PM

How many people are "messing around" before this RD? Let me return the 'favor', if we are not "cherry-picked", we don't mind/care whether you want IB/AP. Unfortunately, through this RD, I realize different voices/choices are not well accepted in SLHS. All the new students are treated just as numbers. Everything is just about SLHS. That's is it.

"Here's the difference. Now pay attention. Nobody at South Lakes is castigating AP or Oakton. Nobody is purporting to know every detail about AP if they haven't experienced it (though most South Lakes supporters have an excellent, in-depth understanding of AP, partly because they have experienced it themselves, or one of their kids has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and unavoidable, and because South Lakes families have very close friends all across the "boundary" lines etc.) But we are not denigrating AP and we are not trying to sell untruths as truths about it. We are not bashing Oakton. We are not making comparisions that try to force AP into submission. "

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 19, 2008 04:33PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> You really don't get it, do you? These parents are
> not being forced by "bullies." Many parents WANT
> to do everything they can to keep their children
> in the school and academic program of their
> choice.

No FR, you don't get it. THEY are acting like bullies, wearing gang garb and threatening lawsuits. I definitely felt intimidation tactics such as putting large signs in front of SL supporters at the hearings. WTF was that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Bullies Defined ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:35PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPSbullies Wrote:
> > > It looks like the petty tyrants are out in
> > > force today.
> >
> > Yep and they are all on their way to protest in
> > front of Luther Jackson Middle School as
> directed
> > by the CAPS leadership.
>
> You really don't get it, do you? These parents are
> not being forced by "bullies." Many parents WANT
> to do everything they can to keep their children
> in the school and academic program of their
> choice.

Bullies are people who intimidate others into submission or absence. That is what CAPS has done. It has used the most blatant tyranical tactics, beginning with its name -- adopting a benign moniker that purports to be for the good of all when in fact it has a narrowminded agenda. Then it populates its website with the worst of one-sided information. Then it intimidates with threatened lawsuits and demands money from its population to support it, implying that if you aren't with them, you're against them.

The majority of families in Fox Mill and Floris are not speaking up at all about this issue. Many because they have been bullied. Others who are fine with South Lakes know what CAPS is and believe the sound and fury will die down once its reprehensible tactics have played out.

Those who go along with CAPS of their own free will can speak only for themselves. They may not have been brainwashed. But the quantity of verbatim verbiage from the CAPS website presented at hearings tells a different story.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSbullies ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:35PM

Yep I get it. Speak up! Let the school board hear you. Speak on behalf of your children because no one else will.

BUT.....

Bullying tactics are being used whether you want to admit it or not. Don't make the already small group of SL parents and students feel even more on an "island" by booing, hissing, wearing yellow shirts, placing signs in front of people at meetings, protesting in front of the school so no one will want to attend, etc.

Put yourself in a SL supporter's shoes for one moment. Just one moment. Would you go tonight to the meeting? Not a chance.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Let's be honest ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:39PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TJShales says
> >
> > "Teachers are supposed to collaborate so that
> > there is some connection made between courses
> > where feasible and where it makes sense. An
> > English and History class might collaborate, "
> >
> > This is exactly what happens in the AP world
> > history / Emglish 10 honors program at Oakton.
> > But you probably didn't know this. No worries.
>
> > Once you get to know AP in depth, I'm sure
> you'll
> > love it. Until then, who needs to hear from
> you
> > and your ignorant opinion? (How was that?
> Trying
> > to capture the tone and style)
>
> Here's the difference. Now pay attention. Nobody
> at South Lakes is castigating AP or Oakton. Nobody
> is purporting to know every detail about AP if
> they haven't experienced it (though most South
> Lakes supporters have an excellent, in-depth
> understanding of AP, partly because they have
> experienced it themselves, or one of their kids
> has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and
> unavoidable, and because South Lakes families have
> very close friends all across the "boundary" lines
> etc.) But we are not denigrating AP and we are not
> trying to sell untruths as truths about it. We are
> not bashing Oakton. We are not making comparisions
> that try to force AP into submission.
>
> Finally, all of the kids I know would absolutely
> THRIVE with AP. They are thriving with IB. Kids
> who do well with one will do well with another.
> Have faith in your children. They are the ones who
> need to know you do.
>
> BTW, did you happen to hear the lengthy pregnant
> silence at last night's CAPS meeting when someone
> asked if South Lakes were AP would they go? Yes?
> And that someone else said the problem was really
> Hughes? Then you know what REALLY underlies this
> opposition. It has nothing to do with IB.


TJ Shales, your statement is simply not true. (Your spies are misleading you...and yes, we know "you" were there...) I was at the Caps meeting last night, and there was no pregnant pause when someone asked if "WE" would go to SL if it was an AP school...because the question was NEVER asked. Feel free to express your thought here, but don't make things up.

For many of us, this is all about IB. (I think it's very interesting--if it's true--that in no other location in the entire US has a School Board forced IB on a community. Come on..that tells you something.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:42PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many people are "messing around" before this
> RD? Let me return the 'favor', if we are not
> "cherry-picked", we don't mind/care whether you
> want IB/AP. Unfortunately, through this RD, I
> realize different voices/choices are not well
> accepted in SLHS. All the new students are treated
> just as numbers. Everything is just about SLHS.
> That's is it.

You and your company decided to put your fingers in your ears and scream "moratorium" and MAKE it about South Lakes. If you had spent an iota of time thinking about all the criteria for this study, you would be discussing the issues related to 3100 kids at Westfield, and 30 trailers or modular units between Westfield and Chantilly. You would have put forth all kinds of discussion about why those schools were just fine as they were.

But you and your ilk chose to attack South Lakes. Your "choice."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NAH ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:42PM

Let's be honest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> For many of us, this is all about IB. (I think
> it's very interesting--if it's true--that in no
> other location in the entire US has a School Board
> forced IB on a community. Come on..that tells you
> something.)


Actually it really says nothing. Why don't you find some examples where the options was looked at and then decided against for the sole reason of IB. That would say something. No precidence does not mean a thing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:43PM

TjShales,

How's that high horse? Might want to consider coming down for a minute to chat.

"most South Lakes supporters have an excellent, in-depth understanding of AP, partly because they have experienced it themselves, or one of their kids has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and unavoidable, and because South Lakes families have very close friends all across the "boundary" lines etc"

Imagine that. South Lakes people can learn about programs that they don't offer at their school. I wonder why people at AP schools can't do that about IB, since we have friends whose kids go to South Lakes? Oh, that's right, we can and do. But do you acknowledge this? No, you don't. You never do.

"We are not bashing Oakton."then
"Hmm interesting. When Fox Mill comes to South Lakes, JI students will find that South Lakes offers Japanese and is prepared to adjust the program so JI students can continue with their language at their level. Hmmm. Wonder if Oakton does this?"

Oakton offers Japanese 1-5 and AP. Hming because you don't know, dummy?

"BTW, did you happen to hear the lengthy pregnant silence at last night's CAPS meeting when someone asked if South Lakes were AP would they go? Yes? And that someone else said the problem was really Hughes? Then you know what REALLY underlies this opposition. It has nothing to do with IB."

I wasn't at the CAPS meeting. I was home with my family. Did you happen to hear my wife say that if South Lakes offered AP, she would want our kids to go there in a heartbeat? She did in fact say this last night, this is not a dramatization. We are in the Crossfield district.

You consistently malign people whose opinion differs with yours, whereas I take issue only when facts are incorrectly portrayed. I see you do this on a regular basis. and point these out whenever I get the chance. But it is really, really tiresome.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 19, 2008 04:47PM

Let's be honest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oakton Parent Wrote:
>> TJ Shales, your statement is simply not true.
> (Your spies are misleading you...and yes, we know
> "you" were there...) I was at the Caps meeting
> last night, and there was no pregnant pause when
> someone asked if "WE" would go to SL if it was an
> AP school...because the question was NEVER asked.
> Feel free to express your thought here, but don't
> make things up.
>
> For many of us, this is all about IB. (I think
> it's very interesting--if it's true--that in no
> other location in the entire US has a School Board
> forced IB on a community. Come on..that tells you
> something.)


Maybe you skipped out for a minute, but the AP question was asked...and there was a long pause, then a comment that Hughes was really the problem. Lends support to the idea that AP isn't the real issue at all, at least for the CAPS people, doesn't it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2008 04:50PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:53PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TjShales,
>
> How's that high horse? Might want to consider
> coming down for a minute to chat.
>
> "most South Lakes supporters have an excellent,
> in-depth understanding of AP, partly because they
> have experienced it themselves, or one of their
> kids has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and
> unavoidable, and because South Lakes families have
> very close friends all across the "boundary" lines
> etc"
>
> Imagine that. South Lakes people can learn about
> programs that they don't offer at their school. I
> wonder why people at AP schools can't do that
> about IB, since we have friends whose kids go to
> South Lakes? Oh, that's right, we can and do.
> But do you acknowledge this? No, you don't. You
> never do.
>
> "We are not bashing Oakton."then
> "Hmm interesting. When Fox Mill comes to South
> Lakes, JI students will find that South Lakes
> offers Japanese and is prepared to adjust the
> program so JI students can continue with their
> language at their level. Hmmm. Wonder if Oakton
> does this?"
>
> Oakton offers Japanese 1-5 and AP. Hming because
> you don't know, dummy?
>
> "BTW, did you happen to hear the lengthy pregnant
> silence at last night's CAPS meeting when someone
> asked if South Lakes were AP would they go? Yes?
> And that someone else said the problem was really
> Hughes? Then you know what REALLY underlies this
> opposition. It has nothing to do with IB."
>
> I wasn't at the CAPS meeting. I was home with my
> family. Did you happen to hear my wife say that
> if South Lakes offered AP, she would want our kids
> to go there in a heartbeat? She did in fact say
> this last night, this is not a dramatization. We
> are in the Crossfield district.
>
> You consistently malign people whose opinion
> differs with yours, whereas I take issue only when
> facts are incorrectly portrayed. I see you do
> this on a regular basis. and point these out
> whenever I get the chance. But it is really,
> really tiresome.


Amen, Oakton Parent. I suspect most of us are tired of these "screeders" posts today. What these "screeders" don't understand about "choices" is that SL was given a choice to ask for more kids. Where does that leave for these targeted families? "Screeders", don't say P-U-B-L-I-C S-C-H-O-O-L-S. Public schools are supported by guess what, "screeders"?

T-A-X-P-A-Y-E-R-S

And we taxpayers should have a fair share of choices of schools for our kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: yousuck ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:56PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TjShales,
> >
> > How's that high horse? Might want to consider
> > coming down for a minute to chat.
> >
> > "most South Lakes supporters have an excellent,
> > in-depth understanding of AP, partly because
> they
> > have experienced it themselves, or one of their
> > kids has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and
> > unavoidable, and because South Lakes families
> have
> > very close friends all across the "boundary"
> lines
> > etc"
> >
> > Imagine that. South Lakes people can learn
> about
> > programs that they don't offer at their school.
> I
> > wonder why people at AP schools can't do that
> > about IB, since we have friends whose kids go
> to
> > South Lakes? Oh, that's right, we can and do.
> > But do you acknowledge this? No, you don't.
> You
> > never do.
> >
> > "We are not bashing Oakton."then
> > "Hmm interesting. When Fox Mill comes to South
> > Lakes, JI students will find that South Lakes
> > offers Japanese and is prepared to adjust the
> > program so JI students can continue with their
> > language at their level. Hmmm. Wonder if Oakton
> > does this?"
> >
> > Oakton offers Japanese 1-5 and AP. Hming
> because
> > you don't know, dummy?
> >
> > "BTW, did you happen to hear the lengthy
> pregnant
> > silence at last night's CAPS meeting when
> someone
> > asked if South Lakes were AP would they go?
> Yes?
> > And that someone else said the problem was
> really
> > Hughes? Then you know what REALLY underlies
> this
> > opposition. It has nothing to do with IB."
> >
> > I wasn't at the CAPS meeting. I was home with
> my
> > family. Did you happen to hear my wife say
> that
> > if South Lakes offered AP, she would want our
> kids
> > to go there in a heartbeat? She did in fact
> say
> > this last night, this is not a dramatization.
> We
> > are in the Crossfield district.
> >
> > You consistently malign people whose opinion
> > differs with yours, whereas I take issue only
> when
> > facts are incorrectly portrayed. I see you do
> > this on a regular basis. and point these out
> > whenever I get the chance. But it is really,
> > really tiresome.
>
>
> Amen, Oakton Parent. I suspect most of us are
> tired of these "screeders" posts today. What
> these "screeders" don't understand about "choices"
> is that SL was given a choice to ask for more
> kids. Where does that leave for these targeted
> families? "Screeders", don't say P-U-B-L-I-C
> S-C-H-O-O-L-S. Public schools are supported by
> guess what, "screeders"?
>
> T-A-X-P-A-Y-E-R-S
>
> And we taxpayers should have a fair share of
> choices of schools for our kids.


Us "S-C-R-E-E-D-E-R-S" are "T-A-X-P-A-Y-E-R-S" too and are tired of paying for you kids to have more "C-H-O-I-C-E-S" than our kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 04:57PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TjShales,
>
> How's that high horse? Might want to consider
> coming down for a minute to chat.
>
> "most South Lakes supporters have an excellent,
> in-depth understanding of AP, partly because they
> have experienced it themselves, or one of their
> kids has such as at TJ, it is ubiquitous and
> unavoidable, and because South Lakes families have
> very close friends all across the "boundary" lines
> etc"
>
> Imagine that. South Lakes people can learn about
> programs that they don't offer at their school. I
> wonder why people at AP schools can't do that
> about IB, since we have friends whose kids go to
> South Lakes? Oh, that's right, we can and do.
> But do you acknowledge this? No, you don't. You
> never do.
>

I said many people -- not all people -- do not "get" IB -- that is supported by numerous fallacies they present. The CAPS website is one such place where there are pure lies, repeated ad nauseam.

> "We are not bashing Oakton."then
> "Hmm interesting. When Fox Mill comes to South
> Lakes, JI students will find that South Lakes
> offers Japanese and is prepared to adjust the
> program so JI students can continue with their
> language at their level. Hmmm. Wonder if Oakton
> does this?"
>
> Oakton offers Japanese 1-5 and AP. Hming because
> you don't know, dummy?


Um. "Dummy?" Lovely.

Great that Oakton does this. The point is that the comparison between JI and IB is facetious.

>
> "BTW, did you happen to hear the lengthy pregnant
> silence at last night's CAPS meeting when someone
> asked if South Lakes were AP would they go? Yes?
> And that someone else said the problem was really
> Hughes? Then you know what REALLY underlies this
> opposition. It has nothing to do with IB."
>
> I wasn't at the CAPS meeting. I was home with my
> family. Did you happen to hear my wife say that
> if South Lakes offered AP, she would want our kids
> to go there in a heartbeat? She did in fact say
> this last night, this is not a dramatization. We
> are in the Crossfield district.

Crossfield? Now we know. But that's not what happened. Doesn't matter anyway. Too many people spreading misinformation about IB and South Lakes and achievement numbers who do not care to hear the truth means they have another agenda.

> You consistently malign people whose opinion
> differs with yours, whereas I take issue only when
> facts are incorrectly portrayed. I see you do
> this on a regular basis. and point these out
> whenever I get the chance. But it is really,
> really tiresome.

I'm not maligning people whose "opinion" differs. I'm calling people on the carpet whose "opinions" are presented as "facts" when they are not.

I find it amusing that most of the pertinent arguments about IB and the worth of South Lakes and the fact that RD opponents like to attack the school are rarely disputed. There's a lot of snapping at the edges.

And it is becoming hard to empathize with parents here who have so incredibly little faith in the ability of their kids to survive and thrive in one of the best schools in the United States. South Lakes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:04PM

ib kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If anyone wants a real eye-opener regarding IB and
> why it's so precious to some in the face of
> overwhelming opposition of so many and evidence of
> it being such a poor fit for Fairfax County, go to
> www.edwatch.org and search for "International
> Baccalaureate." I can't stop reading, it's
> unreal. The IBO website itself is jaw-dropping,
> too. Don't take my word for it, go see for
> yourself.

You're too funny. Edwatch is a libertarian group that advocates for vouchers. It is against public schools of all kinds. Think it might have an agenda?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:07PM

TjShales,

My agenda has been clear from the start. I stay involved since the vote has not taken place yet and anything could change. BTW our kids went to South Lakes for six years in the Spanish Immersion program, so we know more than a few South Lakes parents. I have never maligned South Lakes here or other places, though I feel AP is a better program than IB for most students, for factual reasons. I do take issue with those who attack others in the name of "defending" their school. You don't even see your own hypocrasy when you say you don't criticize other schools, then start counting trailers as if those are demerits.

Fact vs. opinion can be tricky, granted. Let's make it easy. Show three demonstrable, factual, material lies (rather than typos or immaterial quibbles) about IB on the CAPS website. Should be easy for a pro like you, since you repeatedly claim they exist. I bet you can't do it. And no, I didn't have anything to do with that web site.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ib kid ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:08PM

Are you going to challenge the assertions made by Edwatch, or are you going to discount their claims (which are backed up with facts and links to IB's own publications) based solely on their ideology?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 19, 2008 05:11PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're too funny. Edwatch is a libertarian group
> that advocates for vouchers. It is against public
> schools of all kinds. Think it might have an
> agenda?


Hey, Neen wants vouchers too! Could she be libertarian? Now it all makes sense.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2008 05:14PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SoTired ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:17PM

I am a so called future RD SL parent and I am so tired of this process. I can't wait for it to end next week no matter what the final result is.

Like most of the parents, I put my kids' education the high priority. So if we end up get RD to SL. I still can't send my kids there simply because I can't afford to let my kids to try IB to see if it works out for them. What if it's not? Too risking.

Glad to hear that we can puiple place to an AP school, just don't think our kids get equal rights because there is no transportation provided. So we might have to move to attend the school we choose. But not westfield for sure. If all floris get kicked out of westfield, I don't think it will maintain its high level performance anymore. Since this time I finally have a choice, it's a good time to look for new school that fit my kids' need.

My point is whatever we said here really doesn't matter. So it's really not necessary to fight with each other. Anger is punishing yourself with other people's mistake. Just take it easy, hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Future Seahawk ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:18PM

This has gotten beyond absurd.

Folks didn't feel their messages were being heard while other groups were. So what did they do - they banded together. Thus CAPS - all these groups existed prior to CAPS, but didn't have the lobbying power of the other groups because they were smaller. Now, once together and with a single voice folks cry foul. That's just hypocritical.

Is it about IB vs. AP - maybe. Is it about Hughes - maybe. Is it about in incomplete study area - maybe. Is it about repeatedly targeting the same areas - maybe. Is it about an area with changing elementary boundaries next year - maybe.

The fact of the matter is that CAPS and many others see a study that was flawed from the outset that is being railroaded through and contrary to what some may believe agree that something may need to be done, but it should be done properly.

I'm leaving work to head to the meeting where I'll state my points for the 5th time in person plus numerous letters and emails. It's been a long 6 months of preparation and work. Who knows, maybe the board will realize that:

1. SLHS has rising enrollment (as shown throughout the year)
2. WHS is decreasing and is almost BELOW capacity RIGHT NOW
3. If they wait a year and do this right, the options/scenarios may be more universally approved.

Then again this is FCPS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Huh? ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:18PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Baffled Wrote:
> > > ... What if there are students out in the
> > > west county who want to participate in the IB
> > > program if SL converts to AP? ...
> >
> > -------------
> > Fair question.
> >
> > Those of you who love IB: If South Lakes
> reverts
> > to AP, what would you prefer?
> > 1) Add an Academy IB Diploma Programme (five
> > periods per day, junior and senior year) at
> South
> > Lakes.
> > 2) No Academy at South Lakes; go along with the
> > shift to AP.
> > 3) Pupil place to Robinson or Marshall.
> > 4) Other?
>
> That would be 1,100 kids "pupil-placing" for IB.
>
> FR, what is the College Board paying you to get
> rid of its rival? Any other tactics under your
> vest?


What a grand statement. Obviously you are suggesting that 1,100 kids are taking at least 1 IB class, BUT that doesn't sound like a commitment to IB to me. I imagine it's primarily the students who are pursuing the Diploma Program that would be willing to PP elsewhere if SL went AP. (Maybe that's 200 or 300 students in the whole school...and I'm being VERY generous.) Have you/has anybody asked all these students about their commitment to IB...these one or two class kids? I'm betting you haven't. I bet you wouldn't want to hear the answers. (Well, if the RD goes through you can bet a lot of your new arrivals will be asking and asking a lot.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: alksjdfhasldkj ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:22PM

SoTired Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a so called future RD SL parent and I am so
> tired of this process. I can't wait for it to end
> next week no matter what the final result is.
>
> Like most of the parents, I put my kids' education
> the high priority. So if we end up get RD to SL. I
> still can't send my kids there simply because I
> can't afford to let my kids to try IB to see if it
> works out for them. What if it's not? Too
> risking.
>
> Glad to hear that we can puiple place to an AP
> school, just don't think our kids get equal rights
> because there is no transportation provided. So we
> might have to move to attend the school we choose.
> But not westfield for sure. If all floris get
> kicked out of westfield, I don't think it will
> maintain its high level performance anymore. Since
> this time I finally have a choice, it's a good
> time to look for new school that fit my kids'
> need.
>
> My point is whatever we said here really doesn't
> matter. So it's really not necessary to fight with
> each other. Anger is punishing yourself with other
> people's mistake. Just take it easy, hope for the
> best and prepare for the worst.


What makes you think that your kids are any different from the kids that already go to South Lakes. They are doing just fine in IB, they get into the same colleges at the same or maybe even better rates. What would make your kids the exception?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:28PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales,
>
> Thank you for pointing out one of the vertical
> articulation problems for students who take
> Algebra 1 in 7th grade and then attend an IB high
> school. These kids normally take geometry in 8th,
> Algebra 2/Trig in 9th, Precalc in 10th. In an AP
> high school, they'd take Calculus AB or Calculus
> BC in 11th. But in an IB high school in FCPS,
> they would take HL Math in 11th and 12th - where
> they would spend most of their junior year
> relearning precalculus.
>
>
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> AP BC Calc isn't needed. IB HL Math --
> > the two year course that basically is AP
> > pre-calc/calc combined -- contains all the BC
> > calculus (with the calculus unit that most
> > teachers adopt.)

I have heard from math professors that the HL math course is actually better than the AP calc classes. But, I want to understand your point better. First off, they wouldn't be re-learning pre-calculus for 2 years, somewhere I have the information/syllabus on what is covered and when I track it down I will link it.

Regarding the scenario you provided, does the student who takes Algebra 1 in 7th grade, who then goes to an AP school, take Multi-variable calculus in 12th? If that is the case the last half (2nd year) of HL IB math covers that material. I will try to find the information that shows what I am talking about, so folks don't just think I am making stuff up:-)

p.s. I had mentioned it earlier, but since the issue for many is math/science differences between the two programs, keep in mind that AP science courses often don't get credit for their labs, whereas IB does. So, if a student gets credit for AP Bio, but doesn't for the lab, I would imagine they would face scheduling challenges in college. Folks who have researched the science courses have stressed that IB labs are much better. (and no, I am not talking about the Fordham report which had some issues, but rather the NRC report, as well as college sites that discuss credits for labs)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Duh! ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:32PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Maybe you skipped out for a minute, but the AP
> question was asked...and there was a long pause,
> then a comment that Hughes was really the problem.
> Lends support to the idea that AP isn't the real
> issue at all, at least for the CAPS people,
> doesn't it?

DUH!!!!

More than one community is affected by the RD

For many in Madison North, the performance gap at Hughes is a real concern - probably the most pressing concern for many

Its not a concern to those communities who only have High School to worry about - top of their list are SL performance and IB

Its not suprising that different families in the affected communities place their many concerns in different orders. While SL seems to have only one demand - warm middle class bodies.

The one thing that the communities have been united on is that the list of serious concerns (however you order them) is so substantial that they object to being forcibly RD'd with no supportable rationale

Of the communities Madison North gets a rawer deal that any other - its too small to make a difference to the objectives of the study (if you can work them out) and are being RD'd at elementary-middle-high, simply because its an easy political target

The targeted communities are doubly PO'd because the whole process feels like a stitch up and the SB clearly has no interest in listening to their concerns or needs - despite the fact they're the tax-payers and customers of FCPS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:33PM

ib kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you going to challenge the assertions made by
> Edwatch, or are you going to discount their claims
> (which are backed up with facts and links to IB's
> own publications) based solely on their ideology?


Sorry, their claims are't backed up by facts. My son is in the HOA class, which Edwatch states is a socialist course. If anything my kid is leaning towards Libertarian, and is not being at all indoctrinated into any kind of socialistic/unpatriotic person. Edwatch is great at fear tactics, and comes up short on facts.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Court Jester ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:35PM

You lowly peons. bow down before Dean Tistadt and kiss his ring if you want your kids to go to the better schools. Avert your eyes and only speak when spoken to. Just who do you people think you are? All hail the mighty Tistadt!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:39PM

alksjdfhasldkj Wrote:
> What makes you think that your kids are any
> different from the kids that already go to South
> Lakes. They are doing just fine in IB, they get
> into the same colleges at the same or maybe even
> better rates. What would make your kids the
> exception?


What makes you think that your kids are any different from the kids that already go to an AP school. They are doing just fine in AP, they get into the same colleges at the same rate or maybe even better rates. What would make your kids the exception?

Each side has a preference based upon a belief with or without some facts/factoids,depending on who is talking.

Sooooooo....do you have a problem with letting the majority rule?

Also, do you have a kid who is currently in 8th grade or below? If so, do you think you will you pupil place that kid into an IB school if SL is changed? If not, why do you care?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:50PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TjShales,
>
> My agenda has been clear from the start. I stay
> involved since the vote has not taken place yet
> and anything could change. BTW our kids went to
> South Lakes for six years in the Spanish Immersion
> program, so we know more than a few South Lakes
> parents. I have never maligned South Lakes here or
> other places, though I feel AP is a better program
> than IB for most students, for factual reasons. I
> do take issue with those who attack others in the
> name of "defending" their school. You don't even
> see your own hypocrasy when you say you don't
> criticize other schools, then start counting
> trailers as if those are demerits.
>
> Fact vs. opinion can be tricky, granted. Let's
> make it easy. Show three demonstrable, factual,
> material lies (rather than typos or immaterial
> quibbles) about IB on the CAPS website. Should be
> easy for a pro like you, since you repeatedly
> claim they exist. I bet you can't do it. And no,
> I didn't have anything to do with that web site.

1. I have nothing against you and I have no idea who you are so have nothing to say about your own personal experience with South Lakes or IB. But too many people to count have done their level best to slam South Lakes.

2. Counting trailers isn't criticizing. It is one of the reasons the boundary change was done to begin with. I was saying that if Westfield and Chantilly communities had focused on FCPS staff fallacies regarding crowding at their schools instead of harping on moratoriums and why South Lakes doesn't need kids and has horrible problems to be solved without them, then this wouldn't be "all about South Lakes."

3. As for the CAPS website, I've run out of patience, so you won't have the satisfaction of having me take any time to carefully go through it and knock out all its falsehoods. That, too, is a sneaky tactic used by opponents. "Demonstrate to me exactly when you stopped beating your wife." "Do all the legwork for me, AGAIN, since I haven't bothered to pay attention for 223 pages nor to what FCPS staff have put forth."

4. And answer me this: What faith have these people in their kids and in their parenting if they think their children would suffer at top-100-school-in-the-US South Lakes? The kids who come to South Lakes are going to be fantastic and are going to add immeasurably to the wonderful academic successes already there. They will make great friends and be as spirited about their new school as the current big-hearted community of kids is now. They will seize on the best academic programs if they so wish, and mix and match and choose their electives and science and humanities pursuits, and do as well there as they would anywhere. If their parents let them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:55PM

"Hmm interesting. When Fox Mill comes to South Lakes, JI students will find that South Lakes offers Japanese and is prepared to adjust the program so JI students can continue with their language at their level. Hmmm. Wonder if Oakton does this?"

First, what does that mean, adjust the program?
Second, how do you know so much about JI? Did you ever have a child in it?
Third, have you ever had a child at Oakton?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 19, 2008 05:59PM

This is a little older (2001) than I recall what I had, but it might assist regarding the HL syllabus: http://www.angelfire.com/mech/tesmaths/maths_hl.pdf

And here is another link, if you click the topic you get more info: http://www.cis.edu.hk/sec/math/ib/IBH.htm

I am still looking for a document I had located that listed what was taught in the AP calculus classes, and multi-variable along with IB..kind of a table comparison.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 06:05PM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> alksjdfhasldkj Wrote:
> > What makes you think that your kids are any
> > different from the kids that already go to
> South
> > Lakes. They are doing just fine in IB, they get
> > into the same colleges at the same or maybe
> even
> > better rates. What would make your kids the
> > exception?
>
>
> What makes you think that your kids are any
> different from the kids that already go to an AP
> school. They are doing just fine in AP, they get
> into the same colleges at the same rate or maybe
> even better rates. What would make your kids the
> exception?
>
> Each side has a preference based upon a belief
> with or without some facts/factoids,depending on
> who is talking.
>
> Sooooooo....do you have a problem with letting the
> majority rule?
>
> Also, do you have a kid who is currently in 8th
> grade or below? If so, do you think you will you
> pupil place that kid into an IB school if SL is
> changed? If not, why do you care?

If your kid is already going to an AP school -- your kid can stay at the AP school. You did know, that, I hope. The only kids affected here are kids who have never yet been to high school. They will come aboard with all the trepidation and excitement of any 9th grader anywhere. It falls squarely on the shoulders of their parents to be cheerleaders and help them make that transition without added unnecessary fears.

And yes, I have a major problem with majority rule for everything. If that happened, we wouldn't even have a public school system, which was met with vast skepticism when it was first proposed, then passed. And who of us would like to vote on every last detail of our public process? Do you really want to spend every night at public hearings? We vote for supervisors and board members so they can use their wisdom to make decisions to benefit the greatest good. Imagine if everyone could "vote" on which schools to go to. The cost, the imbalances. It would be a nightmare. Just try to run on that platform!

And you state the exact problem. People here are running with their beliefs. Not with knowledge and understanding. That is why we don't have a direct democracy, but a representational one. Our founding fathers knew the demons that lurk under majority-rule direct representation and the inherent self-preservation that often runs through human beings at the expense of the whole. Thus, the bicameral system. Thus our county system.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPS Watch ()
Date: February 19, 2008 06:15PM

I just found out that CAPS won't be donning yellow tonight. Ten ways to tell a CAPS member at the hearing:

1. They will put the school board members to sleep each time a new speaker repeats the same tired mantra.
2. They will quietly hiss (inside voices) when any supporters of RD speak.
3. They will quietly clear their throats (inside manners) when supporters go over their time.
4. They will consistently exceed their own time on the clock, as they were instructed to do at the last meeting.
4. They will pose black helicopter theories about Option 5, the SL PTSA, Rona Ackerman, etc., etc., etc.
5. They will growl and snarl at StuPID (inside growls and snarls).
6. They will stand at attention and swoon when Sean Murphy does his fast-talking, angry, sputtering routine again.
7. They will say they want an AP school.
8. They will then complain that their children will be forced to take two whole AP classes if they pupil place for AP, or else risk being returned to the dreaded SL.
9. They will say, "where's the beach, we're not an island."
10. They will say everything and anything, except what they really think.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: more pro-RD vitriol ()
Date: February 19, 2008 06:33PM

CAPS Watch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just found out that CAPS won't be donning yellow
> tonight. Ten ways to tell a CAPS member at the
> hearing:


getting tired and emotional are we?

feeling the tide turn?

getting annoyed that families are objecting to becoming unwilling 'warm bodies' in a forced RD with no real rationale?

the further into this we get, the more vitriolic the pro-RD-ers seem to be getting

its almost as if they don't want anyone looking at the core performance data...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 06:36PM

"They will say everything and anything, except what they really think."

Please, tell us what they really think. It's so cool that you can know that, you must be magical! I wish I was.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 19, 2008 07:14PM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "They will say everything and anything, except
> what they really think."
>
> Please, tell us what they really think. It's so
> cool that you can know that, you must be magical!
> I wish I was.

I am watching the boundary testimony. A teenager has spoke well on IB v AP , Westfield not being crowded , and there was no sound. It stopped on another one also. A teen stood up with a poster and blacked out the commercial area between Oak Hill area and Westfield. No residences, She said most people at Westfield live to the south and west of the school. HMMM. Why not move around more of Poplar Tree and stuff between Chantilly and Westfield?

Storck is talking about people abiding by criteria so I guess the AP v IB was bleeped out on purpose. This stinks.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 07:15PM

TJShales,

Thanks for turning down the volume.

I do think there has been a lot of attention given to capacity issues, particularly at Westfield which is sort of the poster child for such things. These parents did not choose to go there, they did not choose to have the trailers put in place, but it is not then fair to suggest they must move because the school board should not have put so many kids there. My wife graduated from a school in California with 4000 students; I graduated from a school in Michigan with 800 students, and we both do fine. Claims that there must be 2000 students or a 1700 student master schedule are just that, claims, not based on any immutable law of mathematics or pedagogical theory.

The reason people focus on South Lakes is because South Lakes alleged underenrollment drives the RD project itself. Parents are not unhappy with South Lakes as much as they are not happy with the result of the RD that they change school and get nothing they see as an advantage. Even an SL supporter much acknowledge that the people moving get no advantage as they see it. And yes, its a relative game...if the effect had been to send North Reston neighborhoods to Langley, you'd see them bolting from Herndon in a heartbeat, at least a lot of them. (As it is, they wear red shirt. Does that make them a gang?) It South Lakes people were being ordered to Falls Church, you'd wotk together to identify reasons that didn't make sense for you.

Last but not least, I didn't ask you to find all the errors on the CAPS site; I said just show me three that make its claims meaningfully misleading. I'll stand by my claim that it can't be done, and your anger with its content is generated not so much because it is wrong, but more because it is in fact correct. I'm certainly open to being persuaded that the errors do exist, but I haven't seen them, except a quibble on the degree of coexistence between the IB diploma program and (say) travel sports, where that assessment is inherently subjective and will vary with the student involved.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 07:49PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJShales,
>
> Thanks for turning down the volume.
>
> I do think there has been a lot of attention given
> to capacity issues, particularly at Westfield
> which is sort of the poster child for such things.
> These parents did not choose to go there, they
> did not choose to have the trailers put in place,
> but it is not then fair to suggest they must move
> because the school board should not have put so
> many kids there. My wife graduated from a school
> in California with 4000 students; I graduated from
> a school in Michigan with 800 students, and we
> both do fine. Claims that there must be 2000
> students or a 1700 student master schedule are
> just that, claims, not based on any immutable law
> of mathematics or pedagogical theory.
>
> The reason people focus on South Lakes is because
> South Lakes alleged underenrollment drives the RD
> project itself. Parents are not unhappy with
> South Lakes as much as they are not happy with the
> result of the RD that they change school and get
> nothing they see as an advantage. Even an SL
> supporter much acknowledge that the people moving
> get no advantage as they see it. And yes, its a
> relative game...if the effect had been to send
> North Reston neighborhoods to Langley, you'd see
> them bolting from Herndon in a heartbeat, at least
> a lot of them. (As it is, they wear red shirt.
> Does that make them a gang?) It South Lakes people
> were being ordered to Falls Church, you'd wotk
> together to identify reasons that didn't make
> sense for you.
>
> Last but not least, I didn't ask you to find all
> the errors on the CAPS site; I said just show me
> three that make its claims meaningfully
> misleading. I'll stand by my claim that it can't
> be done, and your anger with its content is
> generated not so much because it is wrong, but
> more because it is in fact correct. I'm certainly
> open to being persuaded that the errors do exist,
> but I haven't seen them, except a quibble on the
> degree of coexistence between the IB diploma
> program and (say) travel sports, where that
> assessment is inherently subjective and will vary
> with the student involved.

Your're not worth debating, which is why I won't engage. Through all your posts, you are clearly not open to any other information. Your mind is made up. Sorry.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: voice of the people ()
Date: February 19, 2008 08:02PM

"Your're not worth debating, which is why I won't engage. Through all your posts, you are clearly not open to any other information. Your mind is made up. Sorry."


So true, while you on the other hand are so open-minded, so fair. Honestly, the more people criticize you, the more justified you seem to feel that you are the One True Source of Truth. Anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint is clearly narrow-minded. Why do we even bother? Seriously, you bring out the worst in people, did you know that? Is this true in your real life?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Garb ()
Date: February 19, 2008 08:10PM

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hahaha Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Choice Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > Maybe you are correct, however, do you really
> > > think that most people view it this way?
> > >
> > > Do you not think that most of the population
> > would
> > > overwhelmingly prefer to have a choice?
> > >
> > > Do you not think it would be reasonable to
> > afford
> > > people to have their choice in schools as
> > > designated by where they choose to live
> unless
> > > there is an overwhelming need to redistrict
> > that
> > > cannot be solved by any other solution?
> > > Would most people support this or not support
> > it?
> > >
> > > Are not the "clients" of the people who make
> > these
> > > rules, the parents, students, and other
> > taxpayers
> > > of this community?
> > >
> > > Why are they not doing more to ensure
> integrity
> > of
> > > choice?
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately this is not how the world works
> and
> > it is not going to start now in order to
> > convinience you.
> >
> >
> > Watching you STILL get redistricted after all
> this
> > effort...even more priceless.
>
>
> It looks like the petty tyrants are out in force
> today.


They have nothing better to do, since they aren't allowed to speak in their green garb.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 19, 2008 08:25PM

Dear AP vs. IB,

Historically, most students who took Algebra 1 in 7th grade took AP Calculus BC in 11th and multivariable calculus and linear algebra in 12th. Prior posters from the pro-IB, anti-IB, and neutral camps have noted that the first year of HL Math is largely precalculus, which is also consistent with what I've been told by various math lovers who looked at the IB HL Math curriculum. And while HL Math optional topics introduce various post-AP Calculus topics, I do not think the HL Math coverage normally would enable a student to place out of multivariable calculus, linear algebra, or differential equations at college.

TJ Shales claims that FCPS students can take the first year of HL Math in 10th grade. Do you know any students who do this at Stuart? Or anywhere else in FCPS? If they do, what math classes do they take in 11th and 12th grades?

AP vs IB Wrote:
> I have heard from math professors that the HL math
> course is actually better than the AP calc
> classes. But, I want to understand your point
> better. First off, they wouldn't be re-learning
> pre-calculus for 2 years, somewhere I have the
> information/syllabus on what is covered and when I
> track it down I will link it.
>
> Regarding the scenario you provided, does the
> student who takes Algebra 1 in 7th grade, who then
> goes to an AP school, take Multi-variable calculus
> in 12th? If that is the case the last half (2nd
> year) of HL IB math covers that material. I will
> try to find the information that shows what I am
> talking about, so folks don't just think I am
> making stuff up:-)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 08:43PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear AP vs. IB,
>
> Historically, most students who took Algebra 1 in
> 7th grade took AP Calculus BC in 11th and
> multivariable calculus and linear algebra in 12th.
> Prior posters from the pro-IB, anti-IB, and
> neutral camps have noted that the first year of HL
> Math is largely precalculus, which is also
> consistent with what I've been told by various
> math lovers who looked at the IB HL Math
> curriculum. And while HL Math optional topics
> introduce various post-AP Calculus topics, I do
> not think the HL Math coverage normally would
> enable a student to place out of multivariable
> calculus, linear algebra, or differential
> equations at college.
>
> TJ Shales claims that FCPS students can take the
> first year of HL Math in 10th grade. Do you know
> any students who do this at Stuart? Or anywhere
> else in FCPS? If they do, what math classes do
> they take in 11th and 12th grades?
>
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > I have heard from math professors that the HL
> math
> > course is actually better than the AP calc
> > classes. But, I want to understand your point
> > better. First off, they wouldn't be
> re-learning
> > pre-calculus for 2 years, somewhere I have the
> > information/syllabus on what is covered and when
> I
> > track it down I will link it.
> >
> > Regarding the scenario you provided, does the
> > student who takes Algebra 1 in 7th grade, who
> then
> > goes to an AP school, take Multi-variable
> calculus
> > in 12th? If that is the case the last half
> (2nd
> > year) of HL IB math covers that material. I
> will
> > try to find the information that shows what I
> am
> > talking about, so folks don't just think I am
> > making stuff up:-)

Yes. At Marshall. He's taking an online NoVa math course now during school since he finished the IB courses in Junior year. Note that the numbers of kids who complete calculus in 11th grade are tiny. No school or school district should wrap its entire program around those few kids. Some schools with large populations or with more than a few kids offer the highest level math ("post-BC calc" if you will.) That's why FCPS supports distance learning for its students where needed -- at all schools, AP, IB, and alternative.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SoTired ()
Date: February 19, 2008 08:46PM

alksjdfhasldkj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SoTired Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am a so called future RD SL parent and I am
> so
> > tired of this process. I can't wait for it to
> end
> > next week no matter what the final result is.
> >
> > Like most of the parents, I put my kids'
> education
> > the high priority. So if we end up get RD to SL.
> I
> > still can't send my kids there simply because I
> > can't afford to let my kids to try IB to see if
> it
> > works out for them. What if it's not? Too
> > risking.
> >
> > Glad to hear that we can puiple place to an AP
> > school, just don't think our kids get equal
> rights
> > because there is no transportation provided. So
> we
> > might have to move to attend the school we
> choose.
> > But not westfield for sure. If all floris get
> > kicked out of westfield, I don't think it will
> > maintain its high level performance anymore.
> Since
> > this time I finally have a choice, it's a good
> > time to look for new school that fit my kids'
> > need.
> >
> > My point is whatever we said here really
> doesn't
> > matter. So it's really not necessary to fight
> with
> > each other. Anger is punishing yourself with
> other
> > people's mistake. Just take it easy, hope for
> the
> > best and prepare for the worst.
>
>
> What makes you think that your kids are any
> different from the kids that already go to South
> Lakes. They are doing just fine in IB, they get
> into the same colleges at the same or maybe even
> better rates. What would make your kids the
> exception?


Very simple, the different is they are my kids, I can choose which school they go. Just like South Lakes kids, their parents choose South Lakes for them, I will choose another school for my kids. Nothing would make my kids the exception.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 19, 2008 08:56PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-
> TJ Shales claims that FCPS students can take the
> first year of HL Math in 10th grade. Do you know
> any students who do this at Stuart? Or anywhere
> else in FCPS? If they do, what math classes do
> they take in 11th and 12th grades?
>

I know a former student, who is now a sophomore at Mary Washington, who did indeed start that sequence her sophomore year at Stuart. Her 11th grade year was the second part of HL. I don't know what she did her senior year, but I recall hearing about on-line and NOVA options.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:12PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
> ... Note that the numbers of
> kids who complete calculus in 11th grade are tiny.
> No school or school district should wrap its
> entire program around those few kids. Some schools
> with large populations or with more than a few
> kids offer the highest level math ("post-BC calc"
> if you will.) ...

-------
The number of students in FCPS taking algebra in 7th grade has climbed dramatically in recent years.

These kids are on track to take geometry in eighth grade, algebra II in 9th, Trig/Pre-Calc in 10th, and AP Calculus as juniors.

Since this pipeline is now sending more students through it, expect more seniors than just a "tiny number" to be looking for post-AP Calculus.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: coffin ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:14PM

Tonight's hearing is riveting television!

Just a couple questions,

Where the hell is the SB, there's only like 5 members there.

Why so many Asians that can't talk? I thought all their kids go to TJ.
Wow, you mean there are dumb asian kids? Who knew?


PS: I like how the sound goes out occasionally, that's a nice touch. It lets one catch one's breath!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:18PM

TJShales inner self comes out:

"Your're not worth debating, which is why I won't engage. Through all your posts, you are clearly not open to any other information. Your mind is made up. Sorry."

Nice bluff..but the board is full of other people, at least some of whom must be "open" by your definition. Why not try to convince them? By not offering any basis for your claims, you leave them in the realm of pure opinion.

I'll stand by my posts on this forum, which used publicly available facts to highlight things that weren't necessarily known previously, such as:

- South Lakes' higher teacher to student ration than other schools, subsequently determined to be due to extra staff for small schools and IB schools

- lists of the courses actually offered at South Lakes vs. larger schools such as Oakton, showing relatively few differences

- increasing enrollment trend at South Lakes, vs. steeply declining enrollment at Westfield, month to month and year to year.

I don't believe I've made any disparaging comments about South Lakes staff or students, but focused instead on

- how the redistricting looks to someone who is not already at South Lakes...hint, it's not a real win for them

- whether AP or IB is more appropriate for the majority of students.

I don't know what else I could do to "be open to other information", other than to start seeing things exclusively from a perspective I don't share, and don't think is the only valid one.

To show that I'm paying attention, here's the SLHS perspective:

- South Lakes would like to offer a schedule more like that offered at adjoining schools. To do this, we need an enrollment of circa 2000 students like most of those schools have.

- Several of the schools nearby have enrollments much larger than South Lakes, and potentially could send students to South Lakes without being underenrolled. In some cases, these students will have a shorter travel distance.

- The quality of SLHS classes, adminisrators and teachers is already top notch, and anyone transferring in will receive an excellent education. Any discrepancies in school-based test results are not indicative of the education an individual will receive.

- Since South Lakes' FRL/ESOL percentages are higher than most neighboring schools, we would prefer to only bring in schools that will reduce those numbers.

Sounds pretty close, I hope.

to win full brownie points, I'd like to see an SLHS person do likewise with the perspective of someone coming from Oakton or Westfield. Here are some hints to get you going:

- moving to South Lakes won't nevessarily improve the quality of education that a student receives; in fact, they may not like it as much, or do as well there, strictly for personal reasons. Increasing South Lakes enrollment is not a benefit to students coming in.

- AP offers a number of distinct advantages over IB for many students in terms of college recognition of one year courses, ability to continue in the program even if someone moves, and similar logistics topics. It would be nice to see these recognized by some of the more zealous backers, rather than being dismissed as errornous conclusions of an ignorant mind.

- the criteria for selecting which students are to be transferred appears to be arbitrary, and ignores alternatives that would make at least as much sense, if not more sense, involving other schools. The school board and staff appear to pay lip service to process, and prefer to make their own choices for their own reasons. I.e. Floris can move, Navy can't. Why? No reason, other than personal choice of the board.

So let's see who has the more open perspective now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Achievement ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:32PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> > ... Note that the numbers of
> > kids who complete calculus in 11th grade are
> tiny.
> > No school or school district should wrap its
> > entire program around those few kids. Some
> schools
> > with large populations or with more than a few
> > kids offer the highest level math ("post-BC
> calc"
> > if you will.) ...
>
> -------
> The number of students in FCPS taking algebra in
> 7th grade has climbed dramatically in recent
> years.
>
> These kids are on track to take geometry in eighth
> grade, algebra II in 9th, Trig/Pre-Calc in 10th,
> and AP Calculus as juniors.
>
> Since this pipeline is now sending more students
> through it, expect more seniors than just a "tiny
> number" to be looking for post-AP Calculus.


Let me take a stab at this. Hope TJShales doesn't mind. Two points.

1) One of the single most difficult tasks faced by FCPS and most school systems in this country is finding, hiring, and keeping good high school math (and physics) teachers. This is a nationwide problem. Something to keep in mind no matter what school a student attends. This challenge cannot be overemphasized in its magnitude.

2) The school system and all its principals are not only aware of the acceleration in math, as I'm sure you're aware, they are actively promoting it. All schools are working on figuring out how to meet the needs of these students once they complete the AB/BC/SL/HL math courses. There is a lot of thinking and planning going into this. They are trying to find and train the teachers for the higher-higher level courses. Meantime, distance learning remains an option. If you think you can help with this challenge, I'm sure FCPS staff would welcome ideas.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:35PM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------



> If the county thinks that AP is the best
> curriculum for a science/math kid at TJ, it must
> be the best curriculum for a math/science kid
> outside of TJ. Otherwise, why is there no
> discussion of converting TJ to IB, to make them
> more well rounded?
>
> There is no two-ways around this. I accept that
> IB is a "good" (maybe even "excellent") program
> for most disciplines and for many kids. But the
> empirical evidence supports the conclusion that AP
> is the "better" program for math/science kids.
> Otherwise, the county and TJ would be remiss for
> not providing IB to the kids at TJ.

IB will not be imposed on TJ for the same reasons it will not be imposed on Langley, Madison, McLean,or Oakton. Parents would have fits if FCPS tried to force IB onto their schools. It wouldn't be worth it for staff and SB to fight it in those schools. FCPS put IB into schools where there would be little resistance.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:38PM

TJ Shales Wrote:

> ...too many people to count have done their level
> best to slam South Lakes. ...
>
> ... I've run out of
> patience, so you won't have the satisfaction of
> having me take any time to carefully go through it. ...
>
> ...The kids
> who come to South Lakes are going to be fantastic
> and are going to add immeasurably to the wonderful
> academic successes already there. They will make
> great friends and be as spirited about their new
> school as the current big-hearted community of
> kids is now. ...

A few, very few, posters, have stated their opinions have changed so I, at least, am willing to continue researching and documenting my research. You want to quit, so be it.

I have written over and over that the full IB Diploma Programme is excellent for the 5% or so who can complete it. However, several of us have done plenty of research on IB and have determined is NOT the best programme for OUR children. That is not a slam against South Lakes.

We LIKE and PREFER our current high schools and will NOT send our children our children to South Lakes. That also is not a slam against South Lakes.

An amorphous "The kids who come to South Lakes are going to be fantastic and are going to add immeasurably to the wonderful academic successes already there" does not justify change. That again is not a slam against South Lakes.

That "they will make great friends and be as spirited about their new school as the current big-hearted community of kids is now" is beside the point. This entire RD mess has no solid reasons FOR it. Why do it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:41PM

HooTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> I am a future SL parent who is open to switching
> to AP. What are the most popular AP classes in
> our county? In other words, if we were to ask the
> county to add 6 AP courses to SL (in additon to
> IB), what should they be? It seems like AP US
> History and US Government would be included. The
> other four could be the math/science courses with
> the highest level of interest. This would go a
> long way to address some of the immediate concerns
> for new families. This would also provide us time
> to have a full review of the IB vs. AP program at
> SL.

I agree. Don't you think that our staff, both central office, and at South Lakes, are aware of this, aware of what parents want? Do you think that they care enough to offer those courses, because they are desired by the community? It would appear not. Offering those course 'might' imply that people prefer AP over IB. Staff thinks those who feel that way are wrong. With that in mind, why would they cater to those people?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:44PM

Achievement Wrote:
> All schools are working on figuring out how to
> meet the needs of these students once they
> complete the AB/BC/SL/HL math courses. There is a
> lot of thinking and planning going into this. They
> are trying to find and train the teachers for the
> higher-higher level courses. Meantime, distance
> learning remains an option. If you think you can
> help with this challenge, I'm sure FCPS staff
> would welcome ideas.

Any businessman would tell you if you are having a difficult time filling a certain position, you pay more to those that fill that position. In other words, offer additional pay for qualified teachers of advance math (or teachers of Special Ed or whatever else is hard to fill).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Achievement ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:48PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
> > All schools are working on figuring out how to
> > meet the needs of these students once they
> > complete the AB/BC/SL/HL math courses. There is
> a
> > lot of thinking and planning going into this.
> They
> > are trying to find and train the teachers for
> the
> > higher-higher level courses. Meantime, distance
> > learning remains an option. If you think you
> can
> > help with this challenge, I'm sure FCPS staff
> > would welcome ideas.
>
> Any businessman would tell you if you are having a
> difficult time filling a certain position, you pay
> more to those that fill that position. In other
> words, offer additional pay for qualified teachers
> of advance math (or teachers of Special Ed or
> whatever else is hard to fill).

That makes perfect sense, but with teacher unions and budget and other constraints, outside-the-box approaches are difficult. One idea has been to allow classes to be taught right after school so that working adults could teach a math or physics class at the end of their work days. Many would do it for little or no pay. Another idea is to reduce the certification requirements for these teachers and allow them to teach with an assessment of teaching skills and maybe one or two courses on teaching skills. Another is to provide incentives such as tax credits to businesses to allow their employees to teach a course or two a week. All of these ideas need a certain amount of momentum and community support behind them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:51PM

>>>No offence to you, but did you not see the budget session last week. Tina Hone suggested putting 500,000 $$ from legal fund into AP courses for SL. Was shot down by Stu saying SL first needs to reach a consensus on AP.<<<<

How would that ever happen? The communities did not get to decide on AP or IB. Why would anyone think that they would be allowed to make such decision now? The first excuse would be that it's too expensive to change to AP and the county is facing a budget crunch that is likely to continue for several years.

Stu will never allow AP at South Lakes. I suspect that everyone knows that. That's why he wouldn't support Tina Hone's proposal. He'd rather pay big legal bills than give parents what they want. He doesn't want AP at South Lakes. He, and the other democrats on the board, want IB. It fits their ideology.

I hate to think that ANY parent would believe that they will have a voice at South Lakes. Why would they? Once Stu gets more bodies into South Lakes, why would he care what the community wants? He got what he wanted, more kids forced into his school AND forced into IB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:51PM

TJ Shales,

Until about 6 years ago, only 300 or so seventh grade students in FCPS would take Algebra 1. Plenty of parents complained that this was inappropriate. Consequently, FCPS began letting more students take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. The number this year is over 1000. TJ will only admit 300 to 400 FCPS students, and given the current admissions process some of them will be students who did not take Algebra 1 until 8th grade. This means that most base high schools will start seeing plenty of students who will take precalculus in 10th grade, and will be ready for calculus in 11th. That's already happened in many AP base high schools, which is why FCPS has started to offer live multivariable calculus and linear algebra classes in more base high schools.


TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yes. At Marshall. He's taking an online NoVa math
> course now during school since he finished the IB
> courses in Junior year. Note that the numbers of
> kids who complete calculus in 11th grade are tiny.
> No school or school district should wrap its
> entire program around those few kids. Some schools
> with large populations or with more than a few
> kids offer the highest level math ("post-BC calc"
> if you will.) That's why FCPS supports distance
> learning for its students where needed -- at all
> schools, AP, IB, and alternative.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:54PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
> ... I'll stand by my posts on this forum, which used
> publicly available facts to highlight things that
> weren't necessarily known previously, such as:
>
> - South Lakes' higher teacher to student ration
> than other schools, subsequently determined to be
> due to extra staff for small schools and IB
> schools
>
> - lists of the courses actually offered at South
> Lakes vs. larger schools such as Oakton, showing
> relatively few differences
>
> - increasing enrollment trend at South Lakes, vs.
> steeply declining enrollment at Westfield, month
> to month and year to year. ...
>
> - how the redistricting looks to someone who is
> not already at South Lakes...hint, it's not a real
> win for them
>
> - whether AP or IB is more appropriate for the
> majority of students.
>
> ... here's the SLHS perspective:
>
> - South Lakes would like to offer a schedule more
> like that offered at adjoining schools. To do
> this, we need an enrollment of circa 2000 students
> like most of those schools have.
>
> - Several of the schools nearby have enrollments
> much larger than South Lakes, and potentially
> could send students to South Lakes without being
> underenrolled. In some cases, these students will
> have a shorter travel distance.
>
> - The quality of SLHS classes, adminisrators and
> teachers is already top notch, and anyone
> transferring in will receive an excellent
> education. Any discrepancies in school-based test
> results are not indicative of the education an
> individual will receive.
>
> - Since South Lakes' FRL/ESOL percentages are
> higher than most neighboring schools, we would
> prefer to only bring in schools that will reduce
> those numbers.
>
> ...do likewise with the perspective of
> someone coming from Oakton or Westfield. ...
>
> - moving to South Lakes won't nevessarily improve
> the quality of education that a student receives;
> in fact, they may not like it as much, or do as
> well there, strictly for personal reasons.
> Increasing South Lakes enrollment is not a benefit
> to students coming in.
>
> - AP offers a number of distinct advantages over
> IB for many students in terms of college
> recognition of one year courses, ability to
> continue in the program even if someone moves, and
> similar logistics topics. It would be nice to see
> these recognized by some of the more zealous
> backers, rather than being dismissed as errornous
> conclusions of an ignorant mind.
>
> - the criteria for selecting which students are to
> be transferred appears to be arbitrary, and
> ignores alternatives that would make at least as
> much sense, if not more sense, involving other
> schools. The school board and staff appear to pay
> lip service to process, and prefer to make their
> own choices for their own reasons. I.e. Floris
> can move, Navy can't. Why? No reason, other than
> personal choice of the board. ...
>
Excellent summary. The School Board could have saved all of us a lot of work and aggravation if they had started with the above as a starting position.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:57PM

TJ Shales Wrote:

>>>..The kids
> who come to South Lakes are going to be fantastic
> and are going to add immeasurably to the wonderful
> academic successes already there. They will make
> great friends and be as spirited about their new
> school as the current big-hearted community of
> kids is now. ... <<<<

AAAHHHHH.........that is SO sweet, so dear, so kind. It's right out of a high school musical. I know that my dark heart has been warmed.

But I have to ask, What the hell does that mean? And what the hell does it have to do with education?

BTW, where do you teach? South Lakes?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:02PM

>>>And yes, I have a major problem with majority rule for everything. If that happened, we wouldn't even have a public school system,<<<

Wow! Are you saying that the majority of people in the US don't want a public school system? They want a choice in where they send their kids to school? They don't want all kids to have to attend a government school?

Who knew?!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:06PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
> ... we don't have a direct
> democracy, but a representational one. Our
> founding fathers knew the demons that lurk under
> majority-rule direct representation and the
> inherent self-preservation that often runs through
> human beings at the expense of the whole. Thus,
> the bicameral system.

"Thus, the bicameral system"? Did you mean, "Thus, a republic, and not a democracy"?

bicameral: having two separate and distinct lawmaking assemblies

republic: a political system or form of government in which people elect representatives to exercise power for them

Or were you trying to make a different point entirely?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:07PM

I am totally appalled at what our school board is doing, right now, on channel 21. This is supposed to be a PUBLIC HEARING, yet they are only allowing certain members of the community to speak and, worse, they are are limiting what they can address! They cannot speak about their school, what they want for their children, or how they feel about redistricting! They are being cut off, literally, by the school board and then by their microphones! This is horrible. This school board doesn't give a rat's butt about these minority people who are trying to tell them how they feel and what they want! Brad, Janie, and the Chair, Dan Storck, have all told these ESOL people to stop talking about South Lakes and redistricting. SHAME on them! This isn't a public hearing!

Just when we think our school board can't be any more arrogant, they sink to a lower level. SHAME ON THEM!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:14PM

Achievement said:
>>>1) One of the single most difficult tasks faced by FCPS and most school systems in this country is finding, hiring, and keeping good high school math (and physics) teachers. This is a nationwide problem. Something to keep in mind no matter what school a student attends. This challenge cannot be overemphasized in its magnitude.<<<

Of course the answer is obvious, pay them more. That's how economics works, scarce resources are more valuable than those resources that are plentiful. Duh. It's not rocket science.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:16PM

>>And you state the exact problem. People here are running with their beliefs. Not with knowledge and understanding. That is why we don't have a direct democracy, but a representational one. Our founding fathers knew the demons that lurk under majority-rule direct representation and the inherent self-preservation that often runs through human beings at the expense of the whole. Thus, the bicameral system. Thus our county system.<<<

Excellent argument for why we should all have school choice and not forced into government schools. Let parents decide where their children should be educated, not the government.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: navy area parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:17PM

I am also appalled at what I'm seeing. Is this really America?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Go Floris ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:19PM

After watching a couple of hours of hearings......FCPS Channel 21.

South Lakes....You in big, big trouble!!!

And School Board...You in big trouble too!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:25PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am totally appalled at what our school board is
> doing, right now, on channel 21. This is supposed
> to be a PUBLIC HEARING, yet they are only allowing
> certain members of the community to speak and,
> worse, they are are limiting what they can
> address! They cannot speak about their school,
> what they want for their children, or how they
> feel about redistricting! They are being cut off,
> literally, by the school board and then by their
> microphones! This is horrible. This school
> board doesn't give a rat's butt about these
> minority people who are trying to tell them how
> they feel and what they want! Brad, Janie, and the
> Chair, Dan Storck, have all told these ESOL people
> to stop talking about South Lakes and
> redistricting. SHAME on them! This isn't a
> public hearing!
>
> Just when we think our school board can't be any
> more arrogant, they sink to a lower level. SHAME
> ON THEM!

YES..WTF...I was just watching it and thinking what kind of school board members are they? There's no confidence anymore with this RD mess.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:32PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HooTribe Wrote:
> > I am a future SL parent who is open to
> switching
> > to AP. What are the most popular AP classes in
> > our county? In other words, if we were to ask
> the
> > county to add 6 AP courses to SL (in additon to
> > IB), what should they be? It seems like AP US
> > History and US Government would be included.
> The
> > other four could be the math/science courses
> with
> > the highest level of interest. This would go a
> > long way to address some of the immediate
> concerns
> > for new families. This would also provide us
> time
> > to have a full review of the IB vs. AP program
> at
> > SL.
> ------
> For the umpteenth time, because of budget
> constraints and large class sizes, no FCPS high
> school can have both IB and full AP programs.
>
> Even huge Robinson, which is quite possibly the
> largest IB school in the world, can barely support
> six AP courses, and NONE of them are BC Calculus
> or in any science. There just are not enough very
> bright math and science students to fill sections
> in both programs, and in IB schools, IB courses
> MUST predominate.
>
> But to answer your question, it you were to start
> AP courses at SLHS next year, I would personally
> look at the courses Oakton offers to tenth graders
> (AP World Civ and Art History). Then if IB is
> voted out, the following year SLHS could add the
> AP courses most popular among juniors, including
> AP English Language and US History.

And Calculus AB/BC. Needed for juniors for the kids who take Geometry in 8th grade. Otherwise they have nothing to take.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:36PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am totally appalled at what our school board is
> doing, right now, on channel 21. This is supposed
> to be a PUBLIC HEARING, yet they are only allowing
> certain members of the community to speak and,
> worse, they are are limiting what they can
> address! They cannot speak about their school,
> what they want for their children, or how they
> feel about redistricting! They are being cut off,
> literally, by the school board and then by their
> microphones! This is horrible. This school
> board doesn't give a rat's butt about these
> minority people who are trying to tell them how
> they feel and what they want! Brad, Janie, and the
> Chair, Dan Storck, have all told these ESOL people
> to stop talking about South Lakes and
> redistricting. SHAME on them! This isn't a
> public hearing!
>
> Just when we think our school board can't be any
> more arrogant, they sink to a lower level. SHAME
> ON THEM!

It is a charade. At the Feb 10 meeting, all Board members said they expected to hear nothing new, but felt obligated to hold a hearing. How noble. Then Storck, who is so process oriented that he misses the point, came up with the criteria for tonight's meeting.

But it is worse....at the Feb 10 meeting it was clear that Cathy Smith did not support her own option....she preferred Stu's! So it is dishonest to ask people to discuss her option.

But it is worse....no one seconded Stu or Cathy's proposal. So it is not even sure that their ideas will be considered by the board. Thus, tonight is a farce...why ask for comments on a proposal that has not been seconded. They could have save us all a lot of grief by voting for the Board's favorite, rather than have us discuss options that may not even be viable. Plus they will not let the public talk about the final version...they mean well but they are dumb.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:37PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > ... Those of you who love IB: If South Lakes reverts
> > to AP, what would you prefer?
> > 1) Add an Academy IB Diploma Programme (five
> > periods per day, junior and senior year) at South
> > Lakes.
> > 2) No Academy at South Lakes; go along with the
> > shift to AP.
> > 3) Pupil place to Robinson or Marshall.
> > 4) Other?
>
> That would be 1,100 kids "pupil-placing" for IB.
>
> FR, what is the College Board paying you to get
> rid of its rival? ...

[Hey, Princeton, they are on to me. Have my usual contact meet me at Union Station at midnight with my severance pay so I can bug out...]

Back to reality, I am still waitng for your responses. Those of you who love IB: If South Lakes reverts to AP, what would you prefer?
1) Add an Academy IB Diploma Programme (five periods per day, junior and senior year) at South Lakes.
2) No Academy at South Lakes; go along with the shift to AP.
3) Pupil place to Robinson or Marshall.
4) Other?

The only response that I have noticed is "TJ Shales" who thinks 1,100 kids would pupil place for IB. I do not understand. In the entire county in 05-06 there were 259 IB Diploma Graduates. Estimate 260 juniors and 260 seniors in the entire county. Bump it up to 600. Seems like they could all fit into South lakes as either a magnet (full time) or academy (part time) programme. Which would you prefer?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:49PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > A MUCH better choice would have
> > > been AP calculus. People have mentioned
> > wanting
> > > that course.
> >
> > Of course we'd want it, but as long as SL is an
> IB
> > school, the problem with offering AP Calc is
> that
> > they MUST offer SL and HL Math. (SL for the
> > Diploma candidates who can't hack HL, and HL
> for
> > those who can.)
>
>
> The above is a clear example of the type of
> willful ignorance that I have mentioned. Using IB
> Diploma populations as stand-ins for the whole IB
> enchilada is willful ignorance if not worse. The
> Diploma is pursued by a small percentage,
> equivalent to the FCPS AP Diploma that has strict
> requirements. Second, this person is suggesting
> that SL and HL are only for diploma candidates.
> This is totally false, but it is idiotic of me to
> say so, since this person is anti-South Lakes and
> nothing, not the truth nor the facts nor data,
> will move him. By repeating falsehoods, he spreads
> lies to everyone else. It is a shibboleth. It is
> ignoble and unworthy of a vaunted Westfield
> education.

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that SL/HL Math is only for diploma candidates, and if you actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I didn't. What I did mean, and did write, is that South Lakes MUST offer BOTH SL & HL Math. SL for those who don't have math ambitions, and HL for those who do. Otherwise, it's not possible for the math challenged to complete the Diploma and ending the math curriculum with SL isn't appropriate for those who aren't. That's a simple fact. And, with that fact, adding AP Calculus AB and BC isn't going to happen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 11:25PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > WestfieldDad Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Neen Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > > > A MUCH better choice would have
> > > > been AP calculus. People have mentioned
> > > wanting
> > > > that course.
> > >
> > > Of course we'd want it, but as long as SL is
> an
> > IB
> > > school, the problem with offering AP Calc is
> > that
> > > they MUST offer SL and HL Math. (SL for the
> > > Diploma candidates who can't hack HL, and HL
> > for
> > > those who can.)
> >
> >
> > The above is a clear example of the type of
> > willful ignorance that I have mentioned. Using
> IB
> > Diploma populations as stand-ins for the whole
> IB
> > enchilada is willful ignorance if not worse.
> The
> > Diploma is pursued by a small percentage,
> > equivalent to the FCPS AP Diploma that has
> strict
> > requirements. Second, this person is suggesting
> > that SL and HL are only for diploma candidates.
> > This is totally false, but it is idiotic of me
> to
> > say so, since this person is anti-South Lakes
> and
> > nothing, not the truth nor the facts nor data,
> > will move him. By repeating falsehoods, he
> spreads
> > lies to everyone else. It is a shibboleth. It
> is
> > ignoble and unworthy of a vaunted Westfield
> > education.
>
> Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that SL/HL Math is
> only for diploma candidates, and if you actually
> read what I wrote, you'd see that I didn't. What
> I did mean, and did write, is that South Lakes
> MUST offer BOTH SL & HL Math. SL for those who
> don't have math ambitions, and HL for those who
> do. Otherwise, it's not possible for the math
> challenged to complete the Diploma and ending the
> math curriculum with SL isn't appropriate for
> those who aren't. That's a simple fact. And,
> with that fact, adding AP Calculus AB and BC isn't
> going to happen.

Misinterpretation on my part then. But AP Calc AB and BC are offered at all AP schools -- they are required as part of the mission of FCPS to offer full AP and IB programming at all schools. So I don't get your concern.

If you read some of the latest posts, you'll note that several continue to insist that IB "only benefits a small percent" of students, to paraphrase. This is just a bunch of baloney. These people blatantly ignore the fact that IB is not the diploma. IB is used as a catch-all term for a school that offers the set of IB courses that the IB program requires, as "AP schools" are those that offer the full array of AP courses that FCPS requires for its full programming at these schools. Most IB "schools" also offer the Middle Years IB Program, which is basically a set of honors courses like those offered at AP schools and begins preparing kids for the way IB approaches its subject (analytical thinking and writing, mainly). Honors courses at AP schools do the same thing for AP courses (Honors English, honors Chemistry, etc.) They are more rigorous than general ed courses so kids are prepared for the rigors of AP.

The Anti-IB stuff I'm hearing -- and now I'm hearing it at the school board hearings -- is being used by people who clearly have no clue what they're talking about. I will bet $1,100 that most of those speaking tonight couldn't tell you the first difference between an AP and IB syllabus. It's crazy and the "divisions" these people talk about were created by themselves and fanned by fearmongers in their own communities. Talk about a shame!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Perspective ()
Date: February 19, 2008 11:37PM

An open comment to Neen and Forum Reader,

You make some good points about educational issues, but you undermine your own comments because you are both driven by your personal agendas that cloud any comments you make. Neen, because you seem to have a personal vendetta against Reston and South Lakes in particular. Forum Reader, because you have an anti-IB agenda.

I gather from your comments that neither of you are directly impacted by this redistricting, as neither of you are in the study area. Please correct on this point if I am wrong.

I have to wonder about two women (assumption on my part) spending so much time on an issue that concerns them only peripherally. I have to wonder what has made your lives so empty as to bring you to post the same information and comments over and over again, day after day on this forum. I wonder that you don't spend your time more productively, especially when your energies could be expended more directly with a subject that you both clearly love. Instead, you attempt to influence parents in a process concerning communities that you have no direct knowledge about.

Neen, you say you are all for choice, but you gladly try to turn families against South Lakes and SL parents. What is really amazing about your arguments is that you say that people buy their homes for the programs in the schools. Well, I have news for you. Many young families in Reston chose their homes when SL was an AP school. It only swithched to IB in 1999, less than 10 years ago.

Forum Reader, you continue to tell parents that AP and IB can't coexist, even though they do at schools all over the Country and even at Robinson, because that has been the rule in the past in Fairfax County.

Don't bother to respond or try to argue with me, because this is the only post I will make on this board. I urge you to think about your actions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: MIT grad ()
Date: February 19, 2008 11:48PM

TJ Shales Wrote:

> The Anti-IB stuff I'm hearing -- and now I'm
> hearing it at the school board hearings -- is
> being used by people who clearly have no clue what
> they're talking about. I will bet $1,100 that most
> of those speaking tonight couldn't tell you the
> first difference between an AP and IB syllabus.
> It's crazy and the "divisions" these people talk
> about were created by themselves and fanned by
> fearmongers in their own communities. Talk about a
> shame!

Hey Shales, I think you are wrong. But in case people are uniformed, here is some data to help them. I start with MIT data (which is arguably a gold standard for math and engineering teaching), and then turn to AP & IB curricula.

Calculus I and II at MIT uses Calculus with Analytic Geometry, 2nd edit, Simmons, 0070576424. Please look at this text book.

From the MIT Calculus I website

Week 1 (2/5-2/8): Limits, derivatives, differentiation rules.
Read Notes G and C, 2.1-2.5, 3.1-3.3.
Week 2 (2/11-2/15): Implicit differentiation, higher order derivatives, exp/log/trigonometric functions.
Read 3.4-3.6, 8.1-8.2, 8.3 (skip Examples 2 and 3), 8.4 (through Example 1), Notes X, 9.1, 9.2, 9.4 (through Example 2), 3.4.
Week 3 (2/18-2/22): Linear approximation, curve sketching, max-min problems.
Read Notes A, 5.2, 4.1-4.4.
Week 4 (2/25-2/28): Mean value theorem, L'Hospital's rule.
Read Notes MVT, 2.6, 12.1-12.3.
Friday 2/29: Midterm 1
Week 5 (3/3-3/7): Definite integrals, numerical integration.
Read 5.3, 6.1-6.4.
Week 6 (3/10-3/14): Fundamental theorem of calculus, properties of integrals.
Read 6.5-6.7, Notes FT, PI.
Week 7 (3/17-3/21): Differential equations, separation of variables, area between curves, surfaces of revolution, length of curves.
Read 5.4, 8.5, 7.1-7.6.
Week 7.5 (3/24-3/28): Spring break
Week 8 (3/31-4/4): Trigonometric integrals and substitution, hyperbolic functions, completing the square, intro to partial fractions.
Read 9.5, 9.7, 10.1-10.6.
Week 9 (4/7-4/11): Partial fractions, integration by parts.
Read 10.7-10.8, Notes F.
Friday 4/11: Midterm 2
Week 10 (4/14-4/18): Parametric equations, arc-length, surface area, polar coordinates.
Read 7.5-7.6, 17.1, 16.1-16.3.
Week 11 (4/21-4/25): Area and arc-length in polar coordinates, average value of a function. Read 16.4-16.5, Notes AV.
Week 12 (4/28-5/2): Improper integrals, infinite series.
Read 12.4, 13.1-13.4.
Week 13 (5/5-5/9): Comparison tests, integral test, absolute and conditional convergence.
Read 13.5-13.6, 13.8.
Week 14 (5/12-5/16): Introduction to power series and Taylor series.
Read 13.7, 14.1-14.4.
From the the MIT Calculus II website

See also http://www.core.org.cn/OcwWeb/Mathematics/index.htm which lists the homework assignments and other material. Calculus I and II are course #s 18.01 and 18.02. The above approach is embraced in every university I know of. I know of not a single university who teaches math in a different fashion. So why would we want our kids to learn math in high school in a different manner. Is there something about their pubescent brains that requires an approach that is different from what they will see in college. And this is just calculus. For a math/science major, it does not get easier. The math gets much much more specialized. Here is a link to sophomore Calculus for Engineers http://www.core.org.cn/OcwWeb/Mathematics/18-075Fall-2004/LectureNotes/index.htm . Anyone who wants to be a EE will take this one http://www.core.org.cn/OcwWeb/Mathematics/18-103Spring2004/LectureNotes/index.htm . And then there are the engineering classes. And this is not unique to MIT…any engineering undergrad will have the same material.

With that as background, look at a comparison of IB and AP math shown at http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10380 . The appendices on this site for AP look like what I have cut-and-pasted from MIT. The IB appendix does not.

So, what to make of this fact that the AP curriculum is organized in a manner similar to the MIT curriculum (and the fact that TJ uses AP and not IB). I think it means that educators in math believe a linear approach to math (e.g., like the AP approach) is the best approach.

But don't believe me....do your own analysis of the AP, IB and MIT data at the links included in this post.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 19, 2008 11:53PM

>>>Did you know that South Lakes has a kid who LEFT TJ this year because s/he wanted a BETTER education than TJ was offering? Go figure.<<<<

Is THAT what she told everyone? LOL

Did people actually believe her?! That's too funny!

Options: ReplyQuote
Pages: PreviousFirst...107108109110111112113114115116117...LastNext
Current Page: 112 of 189


Your Name: 
Your Email (Optional): 
Subject: 
Attach a file
  • No file can be larger than 75 MB
  • All files together cannot be larger than 300 MB
  • 30 more file(s) can be attached to this message
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********  ********   *******   ********  **      ** 
    **     **    **  **     **  **        **  **  ** 
    **         **    **     **  **        **  **  ** 
    **        **      ********  ******    **  **  ** 
    **       **             **  **        **  **  ** 
    **       **      **     **  **        **  **  ** 
    **       **       *******   ********   ***  ***  
This forum powered by Phorum.