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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Just curious ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:02PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Quantum: Your posts are usually very
> > thought-provoking. But I have to ask: Why
> should
> > South Lakes continuously be defending itself,
> > especially against the same accusations or
> > queries, over and over and over and over?
> >
> > It isn't because "my kid is being forced there"
> > because what they really mean "every one of my
> > unfounded fears should be addressed."
> >
> > The people asking these things don't want the
> > truth. They get answers and refuse to accept
> them.
> > They just plain don't like South Lakes, for
> > whatever reason, mostly balderdash. It's an
> > impossible situation for a South Lakes
> supporter
> > to be in. Just imagine if people started
> accusing
> > Oakton of being elitist and cold and terrible
> for
> > non-conforming kids, or Chantilly of dumbing
> down
> > AP courses. Think they'd get miffed at what
> they
> > might perceive to be an unfounded accusation?
> But
> > I have heard parents from those very schools
> say
> > those very things about those very schools.
> > Imagine a discussion along those lines and
> where
> > it would lead!
> >
> > This is very tiresome. So I'm suggesting that
> > anyone who really cares about the impending
> > boundary change get off this forum and do some
> > legwork. South Lakes supporters have zero
> > obligation to do the work for them. Zero.
>
>
> Yeah, and imagine if you tried to address what
> people were asking, but they ignore your posts
> because it does not go along with their
> preconcieved ideas. It's very tiring to talk and
> talk and talk and no one listens, but they keep
> asking the same questions over and over, as if you
> never tried to address them.
>
> And like it's our job to "sell" our school. It's
> a county school system folks. If you want to be
> "sold", go to a private school.

I don't think most people "just plain don't like South Lakes." Families involved in the RD don't like their children being yanked around. While I think it would be strange if people started talking unflatteringly about Oakton or South Lakes...it wouldn't be strange if families/students slated for other schools were all of a sudden (and with less than gelled reasoning) being redirected to these schools.

I don't think the "fight" here is personal at all. NO one wants SL to sell itself. South Lakes' kids probably don't want to go to another school...why is it a surprise that students planning to go elsewhere aren't interested in South Lakes?

BTW, families involved in the RD are doing their "legwork."

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:11PM

Times have changed. Just wait and see.

There are many reasons why South Lakes was in a different position than Woodson when the County was bringing in IB. First of all, comparing the FRM populations at each school, SL parents had a much smaller vocal voice, because the middle class made up a much smaller percentage. South Lakes had a weak administrator put in place at the same time as IB. It was the last wish of retiring Area III supervisor Loretta Webb to place IB at SL, and her wishes carried a lot of weight. The new administrator was not about to get in her way. I could go on and on. Woodson also had some very attractive parents speaking out against IB -the types who are good at convincing others to join them. The two most vocal IB detractors at SL were not successful at convincing the SL community that IB was not good because they used bad information and their delivery was awful. I would not have followed them anywhere and others felt the same.

The South Lakes parents today, and incoming redistricted ones, are much more galvanized and organized.

I have been saying all along that the time is ripe for a discussion of what the curriculum at South Lakes should be and I have urged those being redistricted to be part of the conversation. In fact, that is their leverage. I could care a whit whether SL has IB or AP. I want whatever the majority of parents want.

I have not defended IB as superior to AP, but have merely tried to point out that it is not elite and that any kid who can take AP is capable of doing IB work. My own children are my example - non-GT Center kids who pursued the IB Diploma and still managed to play three sports or two sports and participate in band and scouts. IB is not the time eater that some make it out to be. My AP student friends work just as hard.

Berdhuis, I only bring up FRM percentages because they are a perception problem, and many middle class parent will not send their children to a school with a high FRM percentage. Stuart is doing well with its FRM students, but it is not attracting middle class families. If it were, it would be full.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:11PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-
> The teachers have to be certified which will take
> time, a year or more.
>
> The IB kids now at SL have to be given the time to
> finish their IB classes.
>
> A full AP program won't be in place until 3-4
> years after the change was approved.

1) If the teachers are as sharp as they are reported to be, it should not be too hard.

2) Clearly, IB would have to phase out, so kids in the program who want to stay in the program can finish. But I wonder how many that will be. I have a hunch that some percentage would change mid-stream, while others would not. Plus, there will be some families who really really want IB for their up and coming siblings.

3) I think the goal would be to get AP at the lowest grade first (10th grade?). Then, do the next grade the next year, and the last class on the 4th year. So, the 2008-2009 year would be a referendum/transition year. 2009-2010 would intro AP for 10th grade. 2010-2011 would intro AP for 11th grade. 2011-2012 would intro AP for 12th grade. Anyone know a non-political reason why this would not work?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Huh? ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:17PM

bored of patronizing SL guff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > We who support the school know very well that
> most
> > people will be very happy there once they
> arrive.
>
>
> More patronizing guff from SL - keeping your
> spirits up?
>
> So its all about south lakes needs. What about our
> needs and our kids needs?
>
> We don't want to 'arrive' - we're happy as we are,
> with the schools we're part of and we shouldn't be
> annexed to fulfill your fantasies and fix your
> failings


How can anyone even suggest that they know what's best for my children--or anyone else's children? It's these kinds of "fighting words"--absolutely meant to be inflammatory--that make a community rift really ugly. You don't know me, my family, my son...and that's ok. I'm sure the majority of SL parents are good, reasonable people. If "we" end up at South Lakes, I fully expect to meet many SL parents who will be thrilled to have others join in the fight to remove IB from South Lakes.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:19PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> ... Really, how long does AP take to implement? I
> wouldn't think it would be that long. Especially
> if it's starting with the rising ninth grade
> class. They won't even want to take any AP
> classes until tenth grade at the earliest, right?

Two years.

This spring, decide and commit. Grandfather all the current SLHS tenth and eleventh graders with the IB programme for the next two years.

Next year teach AP Art History and AP World Civ, open to tenth graders on up (See the Oakton Curriculum guide for an example.)

In 09-10 offer the last year of IB classes, and only the second year of HL courses. In their place juniors will be able to take AP English Language, AP US History, ect. Again, use Oakton as a model.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Calling out the South Lakes Leadershi ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:23PM

It is time for the South Lakes leadership to be called out onto the carpet.

Through their politics-driven solutions, they are looking to be successful in avoiding any responsibility for the mediocre-at-best school performance.

While the Fox Mill, Floris, and Madison North communities understandably find this to be reprehensible, it is a mystery why the SL community (other than Thomas More) accepts this -- their kids are directly affected, and bringing in selected students fails to address underlying issues.

What is being changed?

What is staying the same?

Which policies/programs are under review? Which policies are off limits?

What is working, and what is not?

Anyone serious about the quality of the education being delivered should care about these questions.

Who from the SL leadership will answer these, and when?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:34PM

SLVerity Wrote:
> There are many reasons why South Lakes was in a
> different position than Woodson when the County
> was bringing in IB. First of all, comparing the
> FRM populations at each school, SL parents had a
> much smaller vocal voice, because the middle class
> made up a much smaller percentage. South Lakes
> had a weak administrator put in place at the same
> time as IB. ...

> I only bring up FRM percentages because
> they are a perception problem, and many middle
> class parent will not send their children to a
> school with a high FRM percentage. Stuart is
> doing well with its FRM students, but it is not
> attracting middle class families. If it were, it
> would be full.

Woodson had a BRAND NEW PRINCIPAL. He started in August 1999 and IB courses started in September. Are you saying this guy right off the boat (umm, plane) had more "power" than the SLHS principal?

You start out saying, "First of all, comparing the FRM populations at each school" and then say you "ONLY" bring up FRM because of some sort of perception problem. Can you restate this so I can follow your logic?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:37PM

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Point of fact: I know of at least three
> neighborhood HOAs that straddle 7100 in the
> boundary study area (Fair Woods, Century Oaks and
> Franklin Farm). So 7100 isn't necessarily an
> automatic division, it depends on other factors.
> If Floris has no HOA, then it's harder for you to
> make the case that it's unified at all. Does
> Floris have an HOA and defined boundaries?

Our North Reston Astronaut friends would beg to differ - being part of a HOA doesn't mean diddly - at least when it comes to sending their kids to the Reston High School...

> Or are
> we simply talking about the elementary school
> boundary, in wihch case the school board draws
> them up anyway and obviously, as we are finding
> out now, can redraw them at will.

HOA's have no standing when it comes to the schools, though they do tend to argue that they ought to. The larger ones get more respect than the smaller ones.

Floris is the name of a small crossroads community of dairy farms that goes back about 150 years. The current Floris ES is about the third one with the name. At this point, it's almost entirely made up of smaller HOAs that were built one-by-one as the individual farms were sold off. (Franklin Farms is so big cause the person who assembled that dairy farm bought the land with his winnings from the Irish Sweepstakes.)

Anyway, the reason Floris is in the middle of this mess isn't that we don't have a large HOA, though it might help a bit.

The real reasons -

1) Westfield was officially declared "overcrowded" for the purposes of this study - it's not, but they needed some excuse to find kids. There's two Westfield ESes that are far from and in the general direction of South Lakes - McNair south of the Toll Road and Floris.


2) Conveniently, Floris is split right down the middle by the Hunter Mill/Sully District boundary so we aren't represented as a whole anywhere with the NE Floris part on Stu's side of the boundary and McNair is entirely on Stu's side.

3) South Lakes can't fit 2 complete additional elementary schools. Fox Mill was the first and most obvious target since it's closer and at the far end of Oakton. Thus,leaving part of either Floris or McNair.

4) South Lakes boundary study people looked at Floris and McNair SES & test scores. They made the obvious (though as Berdhuis has correctly maintained) incorrect assumption that there was a sufficiently large difference between the two that it made any difference - (SL boundary people were misled by the overall SES at McNair - the low overall SES at McNair is primarily due to the portions north of the Toll Road that go to Herndon HS).

5) Thus SL had an irrational preference for Floris vs McNair and based their Option 5 on that.

6) However, the numbers were still too high, so Staff (perhaps with Kathy's encouragement...) carved off the Sully side of Floris and kept it at WHS in the Staff official option.

And that's where we are.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:39PM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> -
> > The teachers have to be certified which will take
> > time, a year or more.
> >
> > The IB kids now at SL have to be given the time to
> > finish their IB classes.
> >
> > A full AP program won't be in place until 3-4
> > years after the change was approved.
>
> 1) If the teachers are as sharp as they are
> reported to be, it should not be too hard.

The certifications are done during the summer. Each subject has its own certification. This can't happen overnight.

> 2) Clearly, IB would have to phase out, so kids in
> the program who want to stay in the program can
> finish. But I wonder how many that will be. I
> have a hunch that some percentage would change
> mid-stream, while others would not. Plus, there
> will be some families who really really want IB
> for their up and coming siblings.

So a transition period is needed.

> 3) I think the goal would be to get AP at the
> lowest grade first (10th grade?). Then, do the
> next grade the next year, and the last class on
> the 4th year. So, the 2008-2009 year would be a
> referendum/transition year. 2009-2010 would intro
> AP for 10th grade. 2010-2011 would intro AP for
> 11th grade. 2011-2012 would intro AP for 12th
> grade. Anyone know a non-political reason why
> this would not work?

That's three -four years, as I said.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:40PM

SLV wrote:

"Stuart is doing well with its FRM students, but it is not attracting middle class families. If it were, it would be full."

This is where I am having a little problem with. Shouldn't all students whether poor or not receive the right kind of education he or she needs?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:49PM

>>>Not of us here are horrible, mean people, well maybe except for Neen<<<<

Oh my! Horrible AND mean? Yikes! I'm worse than I thought! It's a wonder that I still have a family, and friends! I'll have to tell them about me. I wouldn't want them to be friends with someone who is horrible and mean! They are much too nice for that. I need to warn them, asap.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:52PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > There are many reasons why South Lakes was in a
> > different position than Woodson when the County
> > was bringing in IB. First of all, comparing the
> > FRM populations at each school, SL parents had
> a
> > much smaller vocal voice, because the middle
> class
> > made up a much smaller percentage. South Lakes
> > had a weak administrator put in place at the
> same
> > time as IB. ...
>
> > I only bring up FRM percentages because
> > they are a perception problem, and many middle
> > class parent will not send their children to a
> > school with a high FRM percentage. Stuart is
> > doing well with its FRM students, but it is not
> > attracting middle class families. If it were,
> it
> > would be full.
>
> Woodson had a BRAND NEW PRINCIPAL. He started in
> August 1999 and IB courses started in September.
> Are you saying this guy right off the boat (umm,
> plane) had more "power" than the SLHS principal?
>
> You start out saying, "First of all, comparing the
> FRM populations at each school" and then say you
> "ONLY" bring up FRM because of some sort of
> perception problem. Can you restate this so I can
> follow your logic?

Let's agree that FRM parents don't generally speak up, so their voice is small. Woodson had a larger percentage of parents who 'speak up.' South Lakes' situation was unique because our principal was selected for us. We had no input into her hiring. She was totally ineffective and would never have bucked the higher-ups like Loretta Webb. Just telling it from our side.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Sheryl Cosing ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:53PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Also, Thomas, don't assume the SL boundary study
> group is a monolithic group where > everyone
> thinks the same. We came together to advocate
> for our school, but
> > there are different opinions on different
> issues, just like in any other group.
>
> I reference SLBSG because it's my understanding
> that the PTSA is prohibited from getting involved
> in curriculum debates. That leaves the Boundary
> Study Group as the only group in a position to go
> to Stuy to get his commitment to the referendum.
>
> when I was prohibted from the yahoo group one of
> the reasons given was my opposition to IB, Since
> no one opposed the exclusion, it was reasonable to
> conclude that the other participants agreed.
>
> If that's a inexact assumption, I'm glad of that
> also.


You are welcome to have your own opinions about FCPS, Stu, Bruce, IB, etc. However, your participation in the group was predicated on advocacy for the school. Constant criticism in a public forum is not advocacy. Reread the email I sent when I deleted you from the group. I said that your constant criticism and negativity IN A PUBLIC FORUM of all things South Lakes from the principal to the programs, from PTA members, to specific teachers and coaches showed that you weren't an advocate for the school, the requirement of participation in the group. I never wrote that you must like IB.

I am a member of the group and would not consider myself an IB advocate although I am willing to listen and learn. I've even expressed to all the school board members I've met that I along with other elementary pyramid parents would be interested in entertaining the addition of AP classes or a switch to AP, IF that is what the community wants especially new redistricted families. I've spoken to quite a few friends and neighbors, all future SL parents, none have a preference for either program. We can see the pros and cons of each and believe that each are excellent college prep programs.

As SLPP mentioned, the South Lakes Boundary Study group is not a monolithic group of liberal goslings or whatever we were termed. It's an ad hoc group of parents who are advocating for the high school - plain and simple.

We don't all agree on ANYTHING, yet we are respectful of each others opinions and chose not to air our disagreements in public. When you chose to do so, you were deleted. Your constant tirades against anything SL demonstrated that you were not a SL advocate. Then you posted my email to you here and put my name on the internet - need I say more?

You just don't play very nice TM and it got old.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 17, 2008 11:55PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLV wrote:
>
> "Stuart is doing well with its FRM students, but
> it is not attracting middle class families. If it
> were, it would be full."
>
> This is where I am having a little problem with.
> Shouldn't all students whether poor or not receive
> the right kind of education he or she needs?

Of course they should, and South Lakes' Principal is working very hard to raise the academic success of those very students, who were ignored under the prior administration.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:16AM

Westfield Dad, you are correct. Floris is the lonesome stepchild that does not fit within any circles on Maria Allen's sippy-cup map, as Neen calls it. I am sure that is why your area has been bounced around. I just wish they had moved Floris to South Lakes in 1998, before Westfield was made so large and when South Lakes was an AP school. Had that been the case, you would never have been moved again and you would have had a great AP program. Unfortunately, the SB was too chicken to attempt to move middle class kids into a school with a relatively high percentage of FRM students and a facility in need of repair. Want to know why? Because a few years earlier they tried to move parts of Crossfield to the SL pyramid and there was such an outcry and gnashing of teeth that they never attempted again, until now.

The facility is now great, and the curriculum will change to meet the needs of the families.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:16AM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rest aside, Thomas,
> I do think we should have an open hearing and
> referendum on IB vs. AP at South Lakes. Others at
> SL would welcome this opportunity too.

That is NOT what Stu said, on Thursday evening. Is there some other reason for parents to believe that there will be a discussion of AP vs IB at South Lakes? Is there any reason to think that South Lakes could become an AP school when no IB school in FCPS has ever become an AP school? Since the South Lakes school board member is a firm supporter of IB, why would he permit such a change?

Please don't tell me that Stu will listen to the will of the people. If that were true, he wouldn't be sending people in his district to South Lakes when they have been quite clear that they do not want to change schools.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:17AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis, I only bring up FRM percentages because
> they are a perception problem, and many middle
> class parent will not send their children to a
> school with a high FRM percentage. Stuart is
> doing well with its FRM students, but it is not
> attracting middle class families. If it were, it
> would be full.

SLVerity, I understand some of the ramifications of negative public perception, and observe that you and I share a similar experience in that; ie, we both lose students, endure political marginalization during redistricting studies, etc. But I have to qualify my statement with this observation; the negative perception we in McNair suffer during this redistricting is coming solely from the direction of South Lakes.

While I have steadfastly defended South Lakes' reputation as honestly as my knowledge and experience will permit, the source of some of its negative perception sits squarely atop the SL Redistricting Group's shoulders.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:18AM

Woodson was an IB school that became an AP school. You must have misheard Stu. He said that he was not aware of consensus to change. The parents can make him aware.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:23AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's agree that FRM parents don't generally speak
> up, so their voice is small. Woodson had a larger
> percentage of parents who 'speak up.' South
> Lakes' situation was unique because our principal
> was selected for us. We had no input into her
> hiring. She was totally ineffective and would
> never have bucked the higher-ups like Loretta
> Webb. Just telling it from our side.

And your school board member wouldn't stand up for parents either? What makes you think he might now?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: HeAwareNow ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:23AM

If this RD goes through, he should aware now. Most of the redistricted families prefer AP. So he can't say he was not aware of consensus to change any more. It should on his agenda now.


SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Woodson was an IB school that became an AP school.
> You must have misheard Stu. He said that he was
> not aware of consensus to change. The parents can
> make him aware.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:25AM

Berduis, the SL community was going to have it's reputation shredded no matter what. Even though we did not initiate the study, we have received a lot of misdirected anger that should have been reserved for the School Board and all its past prior bad decisions.

I think it is unfair to chide us for not wanting to take on more Title I kids. We already have the highest FRM population of any school in the West County and we have never asked for anyone else to take our kids. In fact, when Carson was built, it was proposed by the SB that Dogwood students go there for middle school. The families of Dogwood did not want to go and we supported them in that decision. If we were as craven as you suggest, we would have pushed Dogwood out.

Also, don't forget Herndon's public position. They also did not want McNair while losing Armstrong/Aldrin as that would have raised their FRM numbers closer to SL.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:26AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Woodson was an IB school that became an AP school.
> You must have misheard Stu. He said that he was
> not aware of consensus to change. The parents can
> make him aware.


Wasn't Woodson an AP school in the first place before the IB program was implemented and then changed back to AP after much debate over this between the Woodson community?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:27AM

I would imagine that Stu might have a different perspective after this boundary study, but I can't presume to speak for him.

Good night all.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:28AM

South Lakes was also an AP school before becoming an IB school in 1999.

Now, really good night.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: HeAwareNow ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:30AM

Larger Share of Students Succeed on A.P. Tests- nytimes.com

http://www.districtadministration.com/newssummary.aspx?news=yes&postid=49329

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:31AM

Good night, SLVerity.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:33AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Woodson was an IB school that became an AP school.
> You must have misheard Stu. He said that he was
> not aware of consensus to change. The parents can
> make him aware.

I heard exactly what Stu said. Did you? He did not use the word consensus. He said that people at South Lakes have not voiced any interest in changing. Since he speaks with the PTSA leaders almost daily, he knows.

Yes, Woodson almost got stuck with IB but began to fight it as soon as they learned of the plan to change their school to an IB school. It took them two years from that point, but they did it. Since then, no entrenched IB school has changed to AP.

Stu will never agree to South Lakes becoming an AP school. He loves IB and has said so, over and over, and he is never wrong. But maybe if he chooses not to run again in 4 years, such a change could be pursued 2012. By 2016, AP could be up and running at South Lakes. But I wouldn't want anyone to count it. The school board has never been known to care about what the people want. If they did, we would have another TJ, and/or a TJ for humanities. With 2,800 students applying to TJ every year, and paying a substantial fee to do so, there is ample evidence that the people want another such school. No matter. Our school board doesn't like magnets, so the people of county can't have them. Period.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:35AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berduis, the SL community was going to have it's
> reputation shredded no matter what. Even though
> we did not initiate the study, we have received a
> lot of misdirected anger that should have been
> reserved for the School Board and all its past
> prior bad decisions.
>
> I think it is unfair to chide us for not wanting
> to take on more Title I kids. We already have the
> highest FRM population of any school in the West
> County and we have never asked for anyone else to
> take our kids. In fact, when Carson was built, it
> was proposed by the SB that Dogwood students go
> there for middle school. The families of Dogwood
> did not want to go and we supported them in that
> decision. If we were as craven as you suggest, we
> would have pushed Dogwood out.
>
> Also, don't forget Herndon's public position.
> They also did not want McNair while losing
> Armstrong/Aldrin as that would have raised their
> FRM numbers closer to SL.


I feel like throwing another brick in the wall...WHY is it so important to FCPS that they use the FRM measure as one of the criterias for a RD? Does anybody know? FCPS should eliminate that because I am sure students who come from poor backgrounds are very bright, brighter than we may think they are. Look at Benjamin Carson for example..didn't he come from a poor background? He is now a renowed brain surgeon. While it is great that SL has a much better administration, bringing more middle class and high performing kids to help dilute the FRM percentages and other issues...I don't need to repeat, there's 219 pages on this thread..enough for someone to do a high school redistricting book.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:52AM

Sheryl Cosing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You are welcome to have your own opinions about FCPS, Stu, Bruce, IB, etc.

Your generosity is unbounding.

> However, your participation in the group was predicated on advocacy for the
> school.

There is a difference between advocacy and sycophancy. It is the later you demanded.

> Constant criticism in a public forum is not advocacy.

To the contrary, every effective advocate acknowledges the weakness of his position first; it earns that position credibility. Planglossian defensiveness only invites, no demands, the harshest of attacks.

> Reread the email I sent when I deleted you from the group.

You mean the one you sent after you deleted me from the group without warning or consultation.

> I said that your constant criticism and negativity IN A PUBLIC FORUM of all
> things South Lakes from the principal to the programs, from PTA members, to
> specific teachers and coaches showed that you weren't an advocate for the
> school, the requirement of participation in the group.

So the parents from Fox Mill and Floris must never criticize SL in public to be accepted by your group of SL parents. A curious limitation by a group supporting an institution of learning. A place where supposedly the free exchange of ideas and opinions is at the very heart of the endeveour

> I never wrote that you must like IB.

In fact, you specifically listed my criticism of IB in your December 19 e-mail. A copy of it was posted on this forum on that day and anyone can read it.

You wrote that I was not allowed to criticize it in public. What's the difference?

> I am a member of the group and would not consider myself an IB advocate although > I am willing to listen and learn. I've even expressed to all the school board
> members I've met that I along with other elementary pyramid parents would be
> interested in entertaining the addition of AP classes or a switch to AP, IF that > is what the community wants especially new redistricted families. I've spoken
> to quite a few friends and neighbors, all future SL parents, none have a
> preference for either program. We can see the pros and cons of each and believe > that each are excellent college prep programs.

So then you have or will be advocating for the referendum, then?

> As SLPP mentioned, the South Lakes Boundary Study group is not a monolithic
> group of liberal goslings or whatever we were termed. It's an ad hoc group of
> parents who are advocating for the high school - plain and simple.

And aren't allowed to whisper the slightest disgruntled word in public.

> We don't all agree on ANYTHING, yet we are respectful of each others opinions
> and chose not to air our disagreements in public.

Except you all agreed on Option 5 and advocated the continued partition of Reston into two high schools, for that you all will be remembered.

> When you chose to do so, you were deleted. Your constant tirades against
> anything SL demonstrated that you were not a SL advocate.

I dissented from Option 5 and the abuses of the powers and perquisites of several SL PTSA officers in their advocacy of Option 5. That's why you ostracized this SL parent. Is that what the Fox Mill and Floris parents have to look forward to?

> need I say more?

Yes - will you demand that the referendum of the pyramid parents on AP and IB be undertaken as a condition of this redistricting?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 18, 2008 01:00AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes' situation was unique because our principal was selected for us. We
> had no input into her hiring. She was totally ineffective and would never have
> bucked the higher-ups like Loretta Webb. Just telling it from our side.

But you wrote earlier that Webb's IB decision was made while Bill Harper was principal?!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 18, 2008 01:09AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, don't forget Herndon's public position. They also did not want McNair while > losing Armstrong/Aldrin as that would have raised their FRM numbers closer to SL.

Option 4 (HHS loses Aldrin/Armstrong and gains McNair) would have raised HHS's FRM a grand total of 1% to 19%, a far cry from SL's 33%.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 01:38AM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLV wrote:
> >
> > "Stuart is doing well with its FRM students,
> but
> > it is not attracting middle class families. If
> it
> > were, it would be full."
> >
> > This is where I am having a little problem with.
>
> > Shouldn't all students whether poor or not
> receive
> > the right kind of education he or she needs?
>
> Of course they should, and South Lakes' Principal
> is working very hard to raise the academic success
> of those very students, who were ignored under the
> prior administration.

When will someone care that they are ignored at their elementary schools, thus making them unprepared for high school?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ...... ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:24AM

Bruce Butler...or Sean Duffy...plase stop posting here. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: OMG ()
Date: February 18, 2008 05:08AM

I'm glad I send my children to private school!
Good Luck to you!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AP vs IB ()
Date: February 18, 2008 07:21AM

Just a few comments on 1) Woodson versus other IB schools' implementation, and 2) starting up AP.

Mr. Elliott came on board at Woodson, after the former principal initiated implementation of IB. Parents in the community thought IB would co-exist with AP based on what the former principal said. When Mr. Elliott clarified that IB would eventually exist by itself, parents started to object. For 2 years both programs existed (remember there is an implementation period of at least 2 years while a school goes through authorization to become IB). At the end of the 2 years parents, teachers, admin, and I will venture students at Woodson too, voted on which they wanted to keep. I don't recall how the vote went, whether it was close or what, but AP won.

Having read Supertest, I learned how the program was implemented at Mt. Vernon and Stuart. It was said that at those schools AP courses weren't attracting enough students. I believe at that time AP was not self-select, meaning students needed recommendations to take any AP course, and there were issues within each of those schools causing some families to either pupil place out, or go to private. So, IB was brought in. The little anecdotal references towards parents that Jay provided in Supertest, showed parents in the Mt.Vernon area soon were "proud to say at get togethers that their kids were at Mt. Vernon" when prior to IB they weren't.

My family is in the Stuart community. When IB was introduced my oldest was 6 or 7 years old, and I honestly didn't hear anything about IB until my kids were in MS. I don't know how it was implemented at Stuart (which is briefly mentioned in the book as starting at the same time as Mt. Vernon). I don't know if there was a trial period like at Woodson, I don't know if there was a vote, I don't know if parents were initially mislead, like at Woodson into believing both programs could co-exist.

I do know I can't assume that they had the voice that Woodson eventually had. I don't think if Mr. Elliott hadn't shown up they would have. In other words, the former principal mislead them, and I don't know if he would have had the integrity Mr. Elliott showed by allowing a period of both programs in place for a vote.

Regarding bringing in AP. The College Board doesn't actually require training of AP teachers. Training is offered, but not required. This summer I have seen many, many more offerings to become AP trained through local FCPS than I have ever seen before. Usually a few courses are mentioned, but this year there are seemingly more slots for that training. IB training is required; so transitioning to the IB program does take a little longer (the 2 year authorization slot). I do think getting a full program will take the 4 years mentioned, but certainly a number of AP classes could be offered next year.

In terms of grandfathering IB students, the only caveat I would say to Forum Reader's scenario, is you can't limit the last year of IB to HL. My oldest will be a senior next year, and one of his two SL courses didn't work out this year due to schedule conflicts, so he will take it next year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 08:06AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The rest aside, Thomas,
> > I do think we should have an open hearing and
> > referendum on IB vs. AP at South Lakes. Others
> at
> > SL would welcome this opportunity too.
>
> That is NOT what Stu said, on Thursday evening.
> Is there some other reason for parents to believe
> that there will be a discussion of AP vs IB at
> South Lakes? Is there any reason to think that
> South Lakes could become an AP school when no IB
> school in FCPS has ever become an AP school?
> Since the South Lakes school board member is a
> firm supporter of IB, why would he permit such a
> change?
>
> Please don't tell me that Stu will listen to the
> will of the people. If that were true, he
> wouldn't be sending people in his district to
> South Lakes when they have been quite clear that
> they do not want to change schools.

On your last point, if we take a random poll, almost 90% of people would say that Stu Gibson cares only about South Lakes, Fox Mill, Floris, Mcnair he cares zilch. I wonder whether that has anything to do with the votes he got in last election. This is blatant abuse of power.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: nordperiod ()
Date: February 18, 2008 08:25AM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stu did say he would consider it--that will be
> hard to back out of.
>
> I wish I was that confident.
>
> > I hope and will advocate for the younger parents
> getting involved too.
>
> It should ONLY be the younger parents for reasons
> I'll set out below.
>
> > Really, how long does AP take to implement? I
> wouldn't think it would be that
> > long. Especially if it's starting with the
> rising ninth grade class. They
> > won't even want to take any AP classes until
> tenth grade at the earliest, right?
>
> The teachers have to be certified which will take
> time, a year or more.
>
> The IB kids now at SL have to be given the time to
> finish their IB classes.
>
> A full AP program won't be in place until 3-4
> years after the change was approved.


If that is the case wouldn't a logical scenario be South Lakes parents force IB out themselves before asking for other warm bodies. I am not saying do the whole thing, but at least start the transition. What is this logic that give us warm bodies first, then we can form a consensus and force IB out. Why are you calling outsiders to clean up your house?

Unless you do this, how can we trust you? My personal feeling is till the time Stu Gibson is in power there will be no change. We know how flexible he is.

Just does not make any sense to ask for kids first and then say we will think about change. You try this strategy in selling a product and you will know what the outcome will be.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 08:39AM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> navy area parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Point of fact: I know of at least three
> > neighborhood HOAs that straddle 7100 in the
> > boundary study area (Fair Woods, Century Oaks
> and
> > Franklin Farm). So 7100 isn't necessarily an
> > automatic division, it depends on other factors.
>
> > If Floris has no HOA, then it's harder for you
> to
> > make the case that it's unified at all. Does
> > Floris have an HOA and defined boundaries?
>
> Our North Reston Astronaut friends would beg to
> differ - being part of a HOA doesn't mean diddly -
> at least when it comes to sending their kids to
> the Reston High School...
>
> > Or are
> > we simply talking about the elementary school
> > boundary, in wihch case the school board draws
> > them up anyway and obviously, as we are finding
> > out now, can redraw them at will.
>
> HOA's have no standing when it comes to the
> schools, though they do tend to argue that they
> ought to. The larger ones get more respect than
> the smaller ones.
>
> Floris is the name of a small crossroads community
> of dairy farms that goes back about 150 years.
> The current Floris ES is about the third one with
> the name. At this point, it's almost entirely
> made up of smaller HOAs that were built one-by-one
> as the individual farms were sold off. (Franklin
> Farms is so big cause the person who assembled
> that dairy farm bought the land with his winnings
> from the Irish Sweepstakes.)
>
> Anyway, the reason Floris is in the middle of this
> mess isn't that we don't have a large HOA, though
> it might help a bit.
>
> The real reasons -
>
> 1) Westfield was officially declared
> "overcrowded" for the purposes of this study -
> it's not, but they needed some excuse to find
> kids. There's two Westfield ESes that are far from
> and in the general direction of South Lakes -
> McNair south of the Toll Road and Floris.
>
>
> 2) Conveniently, Floris is split right down the
> middle by the Hunter Mill/Sully District boundary
> so we aren't represented as a whole anywhere with
> the NE Floris part on Stu's side of the boundary
> and McNair is entirely on Stu's side.
>
> 3) South Lakes can't fit 2 complete additional
> elementary schools. Fox Mill was the first and
> most obvious target since it's closer and at the
> far end of Oakton. Thus,leaving part of either
> Floris or McNair.
>
> 4) South Lakes boundary study people looked at
> Floris and McNair SES & test scores. They made
> the obvious (though as Berdhuis has correctly
> maintained) incorrect assumption that there was a
> sufficiently large difference between the two that
> it made any difference - (SL boundary people were
> misled by the overall SES at McNair - the low
> overall SES at McNair is primarily due to the
> portions north of the Toll Road that go to Herndon
> HS).
>
> 5) Thus SL had an irrational preference for
> Floris vs McNair and based their Option 5 on
> that.
>
> 6) However, the numbers were still too high, so
> Staff (perhaps with Kathy's encouragement...)
> carved off the Sully side of Floris and kept it at
> WHS in the Staff official option.
>
> And that's where we are.


And what was the guideline SB was supposed to be following?

No split feeders - Floris now splits into 4 in worst case scenario
South Lakes, Westfields, TJ, Oakton. Leaving TJ out as someone will correctly argue it splits into 3.

A good leader tries (emphasized) to form a consensus among his constituents. Our leader Stu Gibson refuses to step outside the South Lakes boundary. Refuses to go to Fox Mill, refuses to go to Floris and refuses to go to McNair.

Some Leadership ...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 08:51AM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The rest aside, Thomas,
> > > I do think we should have an open hearing and
> > > referendum on IB vs. AP at South Lakes.
> Others
> > at
> > > SL would welcome this opportunity too.
> >
> > That is NOT what Stu said, on Thursday evening.
>
> > Is there some other reason for parents to
> believe
> > that there will be a discussion of AP vs IB at
> > South Lakes? Is there any reason to think that
> > South Lakes could become an AP school when no
> IB
> > school in FCPS has ever become an AP school?
> > Since the South Lakes school board member is a
> > firm supporter of IB, why would he permit such
> a
> > change?
> >
> > Please don't tell me that Stu will listen to
> the
> > will of the people. If that were true, he
> > wouldn't be sending people in his district to
> > South Lakes when they have been quite clear
> that
> > they do not want to change schools.
>
> On your last point, if we take a random poll,
> almost 90% of people would say that Stu Gibson
> cares only about South Lakes, Fox Mill, Floris,
> Mcnair he cares zilch. I wonder whether that has
> anything to do with the votes he got in last
> election. This is blatant abuse of power.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The way I see it, the SB, and that includes Stu, are supposed to look at the big picture and reapportion resources across the schools as needed. We live in a county-wide school system that requires redistricting sometimes, like it or not. I don't see how letting everyone stay where they want is good leadership. It would be detrimental to FCPS AS A WHOLE.

What he said about AP/IB was that there was no clear consensus for AP at SL and it should not be assumed (which is true, because it hasn't been discussed up til now) and we should wait to see who's redistricted before we get talk about a consensus.

But I think there is enough energy in redistricted communities and at SL, where awareness of this issue is now much higher, to push for a referendum.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 08:55AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Not of us here are horrible, mean people, well
> maybe except for Neen<<<<
>
> Oh my! Horrible AND mean? Yikes! I'm worse than
> I thought! It's a wonder that I still have a
> family, and friends! I'll have to tell them about
> me. I wouldn't want them to be friends with
> someone who is horrible and mean! They are much
> too nice for that. I need to warn them, asap.

I've heard that you are much nicer in person. Maybe the internet just brings out your inner troll?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 09:03AM

TM wrote
A full AP program won't be in place until 3-4
> years after the change was approved.

Sounds like it shouldn't take that long. Many of the teachers who are teaching IB probably have taught AP in the past. And new teachers coming in for the new kids can be AP certified already.

We don't need a full program until the rising ninth graders are going into 11th and 12th.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Another Brick in the Wall ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:04AM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:

>
> But I think there is enough energy in redistricted
> communities and at SL, where awareness of this
> issue is now much higher, to push for a
> referendum.

SLPP, you give far too much credit to Stu and his petty band of tyrants. To quote Machiavelli,

"Therefore a wise prince ought to adopt such a course that his citizens will always in every sort and kind of circumstance have need of the state and of him, and then he will always find them faithful. "

If they believe that people will stand up and handle matters on their own, they have less need of him.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: navy area parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:05AM

WESTFIELD DAD, thanks for the explanation. It's really too bad your area has been jerked around like it has. You folks should really consider organizing a cohesive group to get more standing with the SB.

As for SLVERITY:

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berduis, the SL community was going to have it's
> reputation shredded no matter what. Even though
> we did not initiate the study, we have received a
> lot of misdirected anger that should have been
> reserved for the School Board and all its past
> prior bad decisions.
>
> I think it is unfair to chide us for not wanting
> to take on more Title I kids. We already have the
> highest FRM population of any school in the West
> County and we have never asked for anyone else to
> take our kids. In fact, when Carson was built, it
> was proposed by the SB that Dogwood students go
> there for middle school. The families of Dogwood
> did not want to go and we supported them in that
> decision. If we were as craven as you suggest, we
> would have pushed Dogwood out.
>


So, Dogwood didn't want to leave, and you supported them. WHY can you not support your neighbors in Fox Mill and Floris who don't want to come? Why are the opinions of Dogwood families more valuable than the opinions of others?

(One more thing for the record, and addressed to everyone, not SLVerity: NEEN speaks the truth, even when the truth hurts. She's not nasty, she's just not blowing sunshine up anyone's ass. That's not mean and horrible, that's admirable. If I knew her in real life, I'd take her out for drinks. The line for joining the Neen fan club forms behind me.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:09AM

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WESTFIELD DAD, thanks for the explanation. It's
> really too bad your area has been jerked around
> like it has. You folks should really consider
> organizing a cohesive group to get more standing
> with the SB.
>
> As for SLVERITY:
>
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Berduis, the SL community was going to have
> it's
> > reputation shredded no matter what. Even
> though
> > we did not initiate the study, we have received
> a
> > lot of misdirected anger that should have been
> > reserved for the School Board and all its past
> > prior bad decisions.
> >
> > I think it is unfair to chide us for not
> wanting
> > to take on more Title I kids. We already have
> the
> > highest FRM population of any school in the
> West
> > County and we have never asked for anyone else
> to
> > take our kids. In fact, when Carson was built,
> it
> > was proposed by the SB that Dogwood students go
> > there for middle school. The families of
> Dogwood
> > did not want to go and we supported them in
> that
> > decision. If we were as craven as you suggest,
> we
> > would have pushed Dogwood out.
> >
>
>
> So, Dogwood didn't want to leave, and you
> supported them. WHY can you not support your
> neighbors in Fox Mill and Floris who don't want to
> come? Why are the opinions of Dogwood families
> more valuable than the opinions of others?
>
> (One more thing for the record, and addressed to
> everyone, not SLVerity: NEEN speaks the truth,
> even when the truth hurts. She's not nasty, she's
> just not blowing sunshine up anyone's ass. That's
> not mean and horrible, that's admirable. If I
> knew her in real life, I'd take her out for
> drinks. The line for joining the Neen fan club
> forms behind me.)

Agreed we need to form a more cohesive unit at Floris. And one more thing, we need to be more vocal with our PTA. We are just too nice and follow rules, like not commenting on redestricting where some school PTAs go out of the way in selecting kids they want brought in.

I must give credit where it is due. The PTA did ask Stu Gibson to come and address us as recently as last week. But we all know how busy Stu is. Just does not have enought time for us.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:18AM

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but certainly a number of AP classes could be offered next year.

Two AP classes are being offered next year at SL: AP Government & AP Human Gepgraphy. It remains to be seen if enough kids have signed up for either course to actually go forward.

Addition of further AP classes at this point would have to wait until next February for the 2009-10 school year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:19AM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TM wrote
> A full AP program won't be in place until 3-4
> > years after the change was approved.
>
> Sounds like it shouldn't take that long. Many of
> the teachers who are teaching IB probably have
> taught AP in the past. And new teachers coming in
> for the new kids can be AP certified already.
>
> We don't need a full program until the rising
> ninth graders are going into 11th and 12th.


If I am going to hear "redistricted kids", "new kids" after reading SLV's post about Dogwood not wanting to go to Carson and that they were supported, I am going to puke. It is not that I don't welcome new changes, I do not welcome dishonest nature of boundary studies and the reasons why new kids on the block are needed to help improve SL's issues. Why differently this time with Fox Mill, Floris and MI???

Options: ReplyQuote
Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: leave_us_alone ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:26AM

Is anyone here from Fox Mill. I heard that the Fox Mill PTA head played a dirty trick on community by sending them a poll through Tuesday package and then misrepresenting the data. Anyone knows the inside scoop?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:35AM

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is anyone here from Fox Mill. I heard that the
> Fox Mill PTA head played a dirty trick on
> community by sending them a poll through Tuesday
> package and then misrepresenting the data. Anyone
> knows the inside scoop?


The Fox Mill PTA president sent out a random survey to the FM residents about if they were okay or not about going to SL, okay or not about going to Oakton and yes or no about being split. The letter the PTA has sent out can be found at www.keepoakton.org I am not sure what was the real motive behind the Fox Mill PTA's letter, but the main issue of the letter was not to be split into two going to SL and Oakton.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:39AM

Furthermore, Fairfax CAPS found out about the Fox Mill PTA poll survey and got the poll results. CAPS said that an overwhelming poll showed that Fox Mill wanted to stay with Oakton and not be split in two.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:49AM

If these are the only AP courses offered at South Lakes next year, then it appears that somebody chose AP HUman Geography over many AP classes that are given almost universal respect by US colleges in their placement and credit policies such as AP US History, AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, AP Biology, AP Chemistry, AP PHysics C, and AP Computer Science AB.

Has anyone checked to see what colleges think about AP Human Geography?


Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two AP classes are being offered next year at SL:
> AP Government & AP Human Gepgraphy. It remains to
> be seen if enough kids have signed up for either
> course to actually go forward.
>
> Addition of further AP classes at this point would
> have to wait until next February for the 2009-10
> school year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: leave_us_alone ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:00AM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If these are the only AP courses offered at South
> Lakes next year, then it appears that somebody
> chose AP HUman Geography over many AP classes that
> are given almost universal respect by US colleges
> in their placement and credit policies such as AP
> US History, AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, AP
> Biology, AP Chemistry, AP PHysics C, and AP
> Computer Science AB.
>
> Has anyone checked to see what colleges think
> about AP Human Geography?
>
>
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Two AP classes are being offered next year at
> SL:
> > AP Government & AP Human Gepgraphy. It remains
> to
> > be seen if enough kids have signed up for
> either
> > course to actually go forward.
> >
> > Addition of further AP classes at this point
> would
> > have to wait until next February for the
> 2009-10
> > school year.


APorIBMom

Why do you think happened? Why such a obscure course selection? No wonder students interested in AP from Reston area ask for pupil placement.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: S ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:05AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The rest aside, Thomas,
> > I do think we should have an open hearing and
> > referendum on IB vs. AP at South Lakes. Others
> at
> > SL would welcome this opportunity too.
>
> That is NOT what Stu said, on Thursday evening.
> Is there some other reason for parents to believe
> that there will be a discussion of AP vs IB at
> South Lakes? Is there any reason to think that
> South Lakes could become an AP school when no IB
> school in FCPS has ever become an AP school?
> Since the South Lakes school board member is a
> firm supporter of IB, why would he permit such a
> change?
>
> Please don't tell me that Stu will listen to the
> will of the people. If that were true, he
> wouldn't be sending people in his district to
> South Lakes when they have been quite clear that
> they do not want to change schools.


No, it is all nice-nice talk to bait and switch. The parents that South Lakes thinks are coming to make a chage, aren't. The bridges have already been burnt and it isn't so much about IB/AP anymore. Sorry, but with the likes of Truthteller and IBVeritas and all the other characters, forget it. We don't want anything to do with you, South Lakes. If you think that Thomas More does not play nice, then you haven't seen anything. And besides no-one at South Lakes showed interest in AP (except T. More) until the new scenarios were rolled out the door.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:06AM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If these are the only AP courses offered at South
> Lakes next year, then it appears that somebody
> chose AP HUman Geography over many AP classes that
> are given almost universal respect by US colleges
> in their placement and credit policies such as AP
> US History, AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, AP
> Biology, AP Chemistry, AP PHysics C, and AP
> Computer Science AB.
>
> Has anyone checked to see what colleges think
> about AP Human Geography?
>
>

I do not see why what colleges think is relevant in the big picture. If it is true that they are getting these classes, I think it is great. They must have figured out a need/interest of their kids. And it is reasonable to assume that at least for cost reasons, they would not have replaced/augmented a core IB subject with a corresponding AP class. I think any AP class is a step in the right direction if you subscribe to the notion that AP should replace IP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: IDon'tKnow ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:12AM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> leave_us_alone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is anyone here from Fox Mill. I heard that the
> > Fox Mill PTA head played a dirty trick on
> > community by sending them a poll through
> Tuesday
> > package and then misrepresenting the data.
> Anyone
> > knows the inside scoop?
>
>
> The Fox Mill PTA president sent out a random
> survey to the FM residents about if they were okay
> or not about going to SL, okay or not about going
> to Oakton and yes or no about being split. The
> letter the PTA has sent out can be found at
> www.keepoakton.org I am not sure what was the
> real motive behind the Fox Mill PTA's letter, but
> the main issue of the letter was not to be split
> into two going to SL and Oakton.


I just read the Fox Mill PTA letter on the keepoakton.org website. It looks like the president is encouraging Fox Mill to write to the school board saying that they do not like Option 2 splitting Fox Mill. But, to me, it will now seem like everyone who says they do not like option 2 is saying they approve of options 1 or 3, Fox Mill going to South Lakes. In my opinion, I think the PTA president would have been better off just telling people to write to the school board that they do not approve of any of the scenarios.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:19AM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> leave_us_alone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is anyone here from Fox Mill. I heard that the
> > Fox Mill PTA head played a dirty trick on
> > community by sending them a poll through
> Tuesday
> > package and then misrepresenting the data.
> Anyone
> > knows the inside scoop?
>
>
> The Fox Mill PTA president sent out a random
> survey to the FM residents about if they were okay
> or not about going to SL, okay or not about going
> to Oakton and yes or no about being split. The
> letter the PTA has sent out can be found at
> www.keepoakton.org I am not sure what was the
> real motive behind the Fox Mill PTA's letter, but
> the main issue of the letter was not to be split
> into two going to SL and Oakton.


It wasn't the PTA, it was the PTA president acting alone. There has been a real backlash. It appears that she and Stu used each other. The Fox Mill PTA pres. is in favor of RD, so her tactics and aims really upset a lot of neighborhood families.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: navy area parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:20AM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I do not see why what colleges think is relevant
> in the big picture.

Are you serious? College placement IS the big picture, here! In today's economy, high school is not an end unto itself!

> If it is true that they are
> getting these classes, I think it is great. They
> must have figured out a need/interest of their
> kids.

More like they are throwing a bone to the AP advocates to shut them up about the glaring curriculum difference between SLHS and the other West county high schools.

> And it is reasonable to assume that at
> least for cost reasons, they would not have
> replaced/augmented a core IB subject with a
> corresponding AP class.

It would be more cost effective to scrap IB altogether and replace it with AP. Cost is obviously not an issue here.

> I think any AP class is a
> step in the right direction if you subscribe to
> the notion that AP should replace IP.

If they'd added AP calculus or AP biology or AP any other core subject, I'm sure you'd find someone to agree with you. That's not what they did. They added AP human geography. Utterly useless.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:26AM

" In my opinion, I think the
> PTA president would have been better off just
> telling people to write to the school board that
> they do not approve of any of the scenarios."

The thing is, the Fox Mill PTA pres. DOES like scenarios that have Fox Mill going to South Lakes. In fact, one thing that probably upset her about Kathy's proposal is that her street would have stayed with Oakton. She and Erica Castro want their kids to go to South Lakes and they want to drag the rest of us along with them. I guess they don't like South Lakes THAT much as it is now, they need all the other Fox Mill kids and as many Floris kids as they can sweep up to make the school acceptable.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:28AM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " In my opinion, I think the
> > PTA president would have been better off just
> > telling people to write to the school board
> that
> > they do not approve of any of the scenarios."
>
> The thing is, the Fox Mill PTA pres. DOES like
> scenarios that have Fox Mill going to South Lakes.
> In fact, one thing that probably upset her about
> Kathy's proposal is that her street would have
> stayed with Oakton. She and Erica Castro want
> their kids to go to South Lakes and they want to
> drag the rest of us along with them. I guess they
> don't like South Lakes THAT much as it is now,
> they need all the other Fox Mill kids and as many
> Floris kids as they can sweep up to make the
> school acceptable.


Interesting. She likes South Lakes and she used her PTA position to influence the process. Seems like it is time to kick her out of PTA.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:29AM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " In my opinion, I think the
> > PTA president would have been better off just
> > telling people to write to the school board
> that
> > they do not approve of any of the scenarios."
>
> The thing is, the Fox Mill PTA pres. DOES like
> scenarios that have Fox Mill going to South Lakes.
> In fact, one thing that probably upset her about
> Kathy's proposal is that her street would have
> stayed with Oakton. She and Erica Castro want
> their kids to go to South Lakes and they want to
> drag the rest of us along with them. I guess they
> don't like South Lakes THAT much as it is now,
> they need all the other Fox Mill kids and as many
> Floris kids as they can sweep up to make the
> school acceptable.


I think it is terrible what the FM PTA president and Ms. Castro has done to FM..they have no idea that there are MANY upset parents out there. Stupid what they have done.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:30AM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > " In my opinion, I think the
> > > PTA president would have been better off just
> > > telling people to write to the school board
> > that
> > > they do not approve of any of the scenarios."
> >
> > The thing is, the Fox Mill PTA pres. DOES like
> > scenarios that have Fox Mill going to South
> Lakes.
> > In fact, one thing that probably upset her
> about
> > Kathy's proposal is that her street would have
> > stayed with Oakton. She and Erica Castro want
> > their kids to go to South Lakes and they want
> to
> > drag the rest of us along with them. I guess
> they
> > don't like South Lakes THAT much as it is now,
> > they need all the other Fox Mill kids and as
> many
> > Floris kids as they can sweep up to make the
> > school acceptable.
>
>
> Interesting. She likes South Lakes and she used
> her PTA position to influence the process. Seems
> like it is time to kick her out of PTA.


YES!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:31AM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > " In my opinion, I think the
> > > PTA president would have been better off just
> > > telling people to write to the school board
> > that
> > > they do not approve of any of the scenarios."
> >
> > The thing is, the Fox Mill PTA pres. DOES like
> > scenarios that have Fox Mill going to South
> Lakes.
> > In fact, one thing that probably upset her
> about
> > Kathy's proposal is that her street would have
> > stayed with Oakton. She and Erica Castro want
> > their kids to go to South Lakes and they want
> to
> > drag the rest of us along with them. I guess
> they
> > don't like South Lakes THAT much as it is now,
> > they need all the other Fox Mill kids and as
> many
> > Floris kids as they can sweep up to make the
> > school acceptable.
>
>
> Interesting. She likes South Lakes and she used
> her PTA position to influence the process. Seems
> like it is time to kick her out of PTA.


Fine by me. While we're at it, can the SL PTA folks be kicked out also?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious ... ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:32AM

Why do they want their kids at SLHS? Proximity? IB? Have they given a reason?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:46AM

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...I heard that the
> Fox Mill PTA head played a dirty trick on
> community by sending them a poll through Tuesday
> package ...

The web site states the poll was e-mailed, not sent in the "Tuesday package."

The difference is that there is a state law prohibiting using pupils as political passenger pigeons - a law that was introduced because a western Fairfax elementary school was doing just that.

The school must be careful what it allows in the packets. It is not supposed to allow youth group fliers unless the youth groups are sponsored by the PTA. The school must not appear biased, but the line is a fine one. A flier may say a bond referendum is pending and what is in it, but may not say "Vote YES on bonds!"

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:48AM

curious ... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do they want their kids at SLHS? Proximity?
> IB? Have they given a reason?


Ignorance of Oakton? Neither has high school kids yet. I won't try to read their minds too much, but Oakton has a reputation for being a fairly competitive school. I know that there are kids there with all kinds of talents and interests,and it isn't necessary to be an academic superstar to fit in there and have a good experience, but some parents might think their kids will be overshadowed there. The PTA pres. has said in the past (in conversations, not publicly) that if they lived in any other place in the country, her kids would definitely be GT material, but since Fx. Cty is so competitive, her kids are seen as just regular.

I wouldn't expect that they will stand up at a meeting and give that as a reason. Proximity is the easy reason. Maybe they actually like IB, however...

The dirty little secret is that the FM families who want their kids to go to SL, and there aren't many but they do exist, don't want to just pupil place because then their kids will be at SL w/o all the other "desirable" (as some have described them) kids. But they won't say that, they'll say that pupil placing doesn't provide transportation. Well, we'll see how many families manage to arrange transportation back to Oakton and Westfield next year if this RD goes through.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 11:13AM by fm/c/o parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:50AM

> > ...I heard that the
> > Fox Mill PTA head played a dirty trick on
> > community by sending them a poll through
> Tuesday
> > package ...
>
> The web site states the poll was e-mailed, not
> sent in the "Tuesday package."
>

The original poll was sent to 100 people by e-mail, and I guess that there was enough of a irate response that then a letter explaining the poll was sent home in the Tuesday packets.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:51AM

curious ... Wrote:
> Why do they want their kids at SLHS? Proximity?
> IB? Have they given a reason?
--------------
I am trying to catch up by reading the posts newest to oldest.

Please fill me in: Why does WHO want their kids at SLHS?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Trying to be objective ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:53AM

I have not checked out the colleges, but it has been reported that AP Human Geography is not accepted by VA colleges.

Do you think that the reason the AP Human Geography course was added was because there is no South Lakes faculty who is prepared to teach a higher level AP course?
It was the faculty's decision.

Or is this just another slap in the face to those students who are being forced to attend SL? "We will give you AP, but guess what....... Readers can fill in the blank.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IDon'tKnow ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:55AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious ... Wrote:
> > Why do they want their kids at SLHS? Proximity?
>
> > IB? Have they given a reason?
> --------------
> I am trying to catch up by reading the posts
> newest to oldest.
>
> Please fill me in: Why does WHO want their kids at
> SLHS?

The Fox Mill PTA president apparently wants her children to go to South Lakes some day.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:58AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious ... Wrote:
> > Why do they want their kids at SLHS? Proximity?
>
> > IB? Have they given a reason?
> --------------
> I am trying to catch up by reading the posts
> newest to oldest.
>
> Please fill me in: Why does WHO want their kids at
> SLHS?

The Fox Mill Elementary PTA president, who spoke at the latest SB meeting supporting RD (and did that poll, but if you want to know more about that read the posts). and Erica Castro, a FM parent who has been quoted in the news as favoring RD. They make it sound like there is a significant number of of FM families in favor of RD, and Erica had a petition with 500 signatures. However, some people on this board have researched the petition and said that few signers live in the affected areas of Fox Mill Estates or Floris.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 11:02AM by fm/c/o parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:07AM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> The original poll was sent to 100 people by
> e-mail, and I guess that there was enough of a
> irate response that then a letter explaining the
> poll was sent home in the Tuesday packets.
---
OK, I follow so far.

Can anyone post exactly what the letter said that DID go out in the packets? Is the letter posted? Did it say something to the effect that "Fox Mill wants to stay together" and then purposely neglect to say the poll ALSO indicated they want to stay at Oakton? And then send this in the packets? If so, it would appears she is pushing a boundary bias and IS using "Pupils as Political Passenger Pigeons" for which parents might push for her immediate removal from the PTA Board.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:17AM

IDon'tKnow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > curious ... Wrote:
> > > Why do they want their kids at SLHS?
> Proximity?
> >
> > > IB? Have they given a reason?
> > --------------
> > I am trying to catch up by reading the posts
> > newest to oldest.
> >
> > Please fill me in: Why does WHO want their kids
> at
> > SLHS?
>
> The Fox Mill PTA president apparently wants her
> children to go to South Lakes some day.

After I read the letter the FM PTA sent out, it seems maybe she used the school directory to randomly send out emails to parents about whether they wanted to stay at SL, Oakton or be split into two. She did not give out the results of the survey favoring SL or Oakton. I think what she did was illegal. Does anybody agree? What I don't understand also is that Castro and the PTA pres chose to live in FM knowing they were in the Oakton district. If they had liked SL then why didn't they find places in the SL district in the first place?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:22AM

To clarify, I found out about the letter through the keepoakton.org website. It appears the nature of the letter was sent out to parents through the Tuesday packets which I think is illegal.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 11:24AM

These were the polling questions:

Would you be okay with your children going to Oakton High School? (Yes or No)

Would you be okay with your children going to South Lakes High School (Yes or No)

Would you be okay with half of the Fox Mill ES students going to South Lakes and half of the Fox Mill ES students going to Oakton? (Yes or No)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IDon'tKnow ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:28AM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These were the polling questions:
>
> Would you be okay with your children going to
> Oakton High School? (Yes or No)
>
> Would you be okay with your children going to
> South Lakes High School (Yes or No)
>
> Would you be okay with half of the Fox Mill ES
> students going to South Lakes and half of the Fox
> Mill ES students going to Oakton? (Yes or No)


We all know the questions asked, it's the results that she misled. The PTA president neglected to state whether most Fox Mill residents wished to remain at Oakton or be redistricted to South Lakes based on her survey. That's a pretty big mistake.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:29AM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These were the polling questions:
>
> Would you be okay with your children going to
> Oakton High School? (Yes or No)
>
> Would you be okay with your children going to
> South Lakes High School (Yes or No)
>
> Would you be okay with half of the Fox Mill ES
> students going to South Lakes and half of the Fox
> Mill ES students going to Oakton? (Yes or No)


What I fail to understand is, I thought the PTAs are supposed to be out of this discussion about whether they want to get redestricted, where they want to go, which kids they want the school to have etc.

Didn't we already have a storm when SL PTSA worked on the boundary maps? Seems like Stu has done it again with Fox Mill PTA.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:33AM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > These were the polling questions:
> >
> > Would you be okay with your children going to
> > Oakton High School? (Yes or No)
> >
> > Would you be okay with your children going to
> > South Lakes High School (Yes or No)
> >
> > Would you be okay with half of the Fox Mill ES
> > students going to South Lakes and half of the
> Fox
> > Mill ES students going to Oakton? (Yes or No)
>
>
> What I fail to understand is, I thought the PTAs
> are supposed to be out of this discussion about
> whether they want to get redestricted, where they
> want to go, which kids they want the school to
> have etc.
>
> Didn't we already have a storm when SL PTSA worked
> on the boundary maps? Seems like Stu has done it
> again with Fox Mill PTA.


If this was carried out in this nature, then an investigation is worth pausing the RD on hold. Too much illegal merrygoaround going on now. Too much.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:34AM

In this letter she states when she received information on the K Smith proposal. Was this before the great unveiling to the general public? Yes- if the board had the unveiling on Monday.

Why aren't the at-large members developing 3 plans with not being partial to any of them? Why do we even have them if they don't do anything?

Ackerman makes it sound like she went to Stu after Sunday when I thought Stu announced he had worked on his plan on Saturday? Possibly on an MP3 at a recent school board meeting. It seems back in 2003 it was decided who went where generally [tried to put Navy at Oakton years ago], Westfiled addition was only a construction trailer,
http://keepoakton.org/
http://keepoakton.org/Fox%20Mill%20ES%20PTA%20President%20Position%20Paper.htm
Attachments:
fm.jpg

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:43AM

Trying to be objective Wrote:
> I have not checked out the colleges, but it has
> been reported that AP Human Geography is not
> accepted by VA colleges.
>
> Do you think that the reason the AP Human
> Geography course was added was because there is no
> South Lakes faculty who is prepared to teach a
> higher level AP course? ...

I always try to be objective. IB does offer an excellent SL-level course on Social Anthropology. If AP Human Geography is kind of like that, what not drop AP Human Geog. and offer IB SL Soc. Anth. instead?

AP World Civ - good choice. Encourage tenth graders to take it as their core social studies course. Without having to take the SOL exam, students can earn both SOL and college credit, and get an idea about the AP program at the same time. Form the Oakton Curriculum Guide:
"ADVANCED PLACEMENT WORLD HISTORY (234004)
(234005) If taken in combination with Pre-AP English 10 (114039)
Grades: 10, 11, 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
Advanced Placement World History is designed to develop greater understanding of the evolution of global processes and contacts, in interaction with different types of human societies. This understanding is advanced through a combination of selective factual knowledge and appropriate analytical skills. Focused primarily on the past thousand years of the global experience, the course builds on an understanding of cultural, institutional, and technological precedents that, along with geography, set the human stage prior to 1000. All students are required to take the Advanced Placement World History exam. This course may be used to satisfy the World History and Geography II requirement. Note: When taken as the World History and Geography 2 substitute course, the World History and Geography 2 SOL Test is required. The SOL Test is not given when AP World is taken as an elective. Students are required to take the Standards of Learning End of Course Test."

--------------------------
For the second AP course for SLHS next year, again review the Oakton curriculum guide:
"ADVANCED PLACEMENT ART: ART HISTORY (915104)
Grades: 10, 11, 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
Students develop an understanding of works of art within their historical context by examining issues such as politics, religion, patronage, gender, function, and ethnicity. The course also addresses visual analysis, aesthetics, and criticism. Students should demonstrate a high degree of commitment to academic work and possess academic skills needed to pursue a program designed to meet college standards. The course is designed to prepare students for the Advanced Placement Art History examination, for which college credit and/or placement may be awarded if a qualifying score is achieved. Objectives for Advanced Placement courses reflect the format and requirements in the Advanced Placement Course Description for Art published by the College Board. No prior experience in art studio or art history is assumed. ..."

- AP Art History is an elective open to tenth through twelfth graders.
- NO prerequisites.
- A "4" in AP Art History earns EIGHT credits at UVA.
- And if SLHS does revert to AP status, next year's tenth graders will already be on the AP "track."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:50AM

taxpayer Wrote:
-> In this letter she states when she received
> information on the K Smith proposal. Was this
> before the great unveiling to the general public?
> Yes- if the board had the unveiling on Monday. ...
>
> Ackerman makes it sound like she went to Stu after
> Sunday when I thought Stu announced he had worked
> on his plan on Saturday?
---------
The same Rona Ackerman from the League of Woman Voters? Who should therefore know better than most NOT to confuse information and advocacy?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:10PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> -> In this letter she states when she received
> > information on the K Smith proposal. Was this
> > before the great unveiling to the general
> public?
> > Yes- if the board had the unveiling on Monday.
> ...
> >
> > Ackerman makes it sound like she went to Stu
> after
> > Sunday when I thought Stu announced he had
> worked
> > on his plan on Saturday?
> ---------
> The same Rona Ackerman from the League of Woman
> Voters? Who should therefore know better than most
> NOT to confuse information and advocacy?


The more we know the murkier it gets. This process has been corrupt since the beginning when they excluded langley. It does not get any better now. We have no confidence in this any more.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Achievement ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:39PM

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If these are the only AP courses offered at
> South
> > Lakes next year, then it appears that somebody
> > chose AP HUman Geography over many AP classes
> that
> > are given almost universal respect by US
> colleges
> > in their placement and credit policies such as
> AP
> > US History, AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, AP
> > Biology, AP Chemistry, AP PHysics C, and AP
> > Computer Science AB.
> >
> > Has anyone checked to see what colleges think
> > about AP Human Geography?
> >
> >
> > Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Two AP classes are being offered next year at
> > SL:
> > > AP Government & AP Human Gepgraphy. It
> remains
> > to
> > > be seen if enough kids have signed up for
> > either
> > > course to actually go forward.
> > >
> > > Addition of further AP classes at this point
> > would
> > > have to wait until next February for the
> > 2009-10
> > > school year.
>
>
> APorIBMom
>
> Why do you think happened? Why such a obscure
> course selection? No wonder students interested
> in AP from Reston area ask for pupil placement.

Please pay attention this time. Non-core AP and IB courses are offered based on whether a teacher is available and certified and willing to teach them. To offer any "extra" AP or IB courses involves a mix of student interest, filling a defined void in the curriculum, and teacher availability, with emphasis on the latter.

There is a teacher at South Lakes willing, able, and certified to teach Human Geography (basically an anthropology course). There appears to be quite a bit of student interest. Ergo, it can be offered.

Furthermore, there are stand-alone non-core IB courses (as there are AP courses) such as IB Psychology (offered at Marshall) that would be the first to be considered at an IB school. They are wonderful courses, providing college credit/course exemption opportunities for passing test scores (just like AP). Where there is no IB equivalent, AP can be and is considered, provided there are available teachers and enough student interest.

If you are familiar with AP, you should have no trouble understanding IB once you really get to know it. Until then, please keep an open mind.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IDon'tKnow ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:41PM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > taxpayer Wrote:
> > ->> > The same Rona Ackerman from the League of Woman
> > Voters? Who should therefore know better than
> most
> > NOT to confuse information and advocacy?
>
>
> The more we know the murkier it gets. This
> process has been corrupt since the beginning when
> they excluded langley. It does not get any better
> now. We have no confidence in this any more.


The same Rona Ackerman on the fcps transportation task force?
http://www.fcps.edu/fts/taskforce07/minutes/tweak/minutesoct222007.pdf

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:42PM

IDon'tKnow Wrote:
> ... I think the
> PTA president would have been better off just
> telling people to write to the school board that
> they do not approve of any of the scenarios.

--
http://www.foxmillpta.com/pdfs/06-07/Minutes_S_Lakes_High_School.pdf
"Minutes from the Meeting on South Lakes High School, Tuesday March 20
(taken by Rona Ackerman)

These notes are long. Much time was spent with the sort of "We love our school" comments I would expect every such visiting group to present. [Has Oakton HS also visited Fox Mill to tell you about its opportunities?] I select ("cherry pick") a few comments from Ms Ackerman's minutes for your consideration:

"... The number of students taking the full IB diploma has been rising steadily—52 seniors, 53 juniors, and 75 sophomores are expected to receive the diploma. The passing rates for all students taking AP or IB exams from 2004-2006 is 81%. ... The math and science classes also include writing components and make you think. ... Bruce Butler said that comparing the AP to the IB was like comparing a Lamborghini to Ferrari. They are equally challenging. ... Most east coast schools accept it; some less progressive states may not be familiar with it. ... South Lakes is very excited about the increase in population because it will allow them to expand the elective opportunities, engineering and language programs, and they will be getting a culinary arts program. The school offers 5 languages, and this year replaced American Sign Language because it was not accepted as a language for IB. ..."

Ms Ackerman only took the minutes and is not responsible for what was said. HOWEVER:

"The number of students taking the full IB diploma has been rising steadily—52 seniors, 53 juniors, and 75 sophomores are expected to receive the diploma" is false logic. IB advocates use the greater number of younger students in the program to imply interest is rising. They should also show the dropout rate: Of those 52 seniors, only 45 earned the IB Diploma. How many of last year's sophomores and juniors are still IB Diploma Candidates?

"The passing rates for all students taking AP or IB exams from 2004-2006 is 81%" does not break out HL, SL, and AP. We know that in 05-06 only 21 SLHS students earned the IB Diploma and only three took any AP exams.

"The math and science classes also include writing components and make you think" is one of the major differences between AP and IB. When SLHS holds its discussions of AP and IB it needs at least one meeting to look in depth at the differences in what is actually taught in AP and IB English and social studies classrooms. A second meeting will be needed to examine the IB and AP methodologies of teaching math and science.

"Bruce Butler said that comparing the AP to the IB was like comparing a Lamborghini to Ferrari. They are equally challenging." We are back to a recurring issue: IB costs considerably more than AP. If they are "the same only different" then FCPS should dump the more expensive programme.

"Most east coast schools accept it; some less progressive states may not be familiar with it." Wait a minute on this one. Who used the word "progressive" - Butler or Ackerman? Is "less progressive" a political term meaning less democrat? Or did the writer or speaker imply the natives on the other side of the Appalachians are backward and uneducated?

"South Lakes is very excited about the increase in population because it will allow them to expand the elective opportunities, engineering and language programs, and they will be getting a culinary arts program. The school offers 5 languages, and this year replaced American Sign Language because it was not accepted as a language for IB." Are we finally at the "real" reason for this whole RD? How many FCPS high schools offer MORE than five languages? SLHS admits it had to dump a program (sign language) because it is not recognized by the IBO - that point will be of interest to many.

SLHS can offer their engineering and culinary arts program as Academy offerings without any RD. So why are we going through all this?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:55PM

Achievement Wrote:
> Please pay attention this time. Non-core AP and IB
> courses are offered based on whether a teacher is
> available and certified and willing to teach them.
> To offer any "extra" AP or IB courses involves a
> mix of student interest, filling a defined void in
> the curriculum, and teacher availability, with
> emphasis on the latter.
>
> There is a teacher at South Lakes willing, able,
> and certified to teach Human Geography (basically
> an anthropology course). There appears to be quite
> a bit of student interest. Ergo, it can be
> offered.
>
> Furthermore, there are stand-alone non-core IB
> courses (as there are AP courses) such as IB
> Psychology (offered at Marshall) that would be the
> first to be considered at an IB school. ...
> Where there is no IB equivalent,
> AP can be and is considered, provided there are
> available teachers and enough student interest.
>
> If you are familiar with AP, you should have no
> trouble understanding IB once you really get to
> know it. Until then, please keep an open mind.

---
We are paying very close attention, and some of us understand IB VERY well. We even know there is an IB SL anthropology course. From the Robinson course guide:
"IB SOCIAL ANTHROPOLOGY SL (237408)
Grades: 11, 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5
In this course, students engage in the comparative study of culture and human
societies. They explore both the universal principles of social and cultural life and characteristics of specific societies and cultures. This includes approaches to social change, problems of injustice, social inequality and human rights. Course activities include observation, field study, reading, writing, and discussion. Students are required to take the standard level exam."

You write, "Where there is no IB equivalent, AP can be and is considered." Please explain why South Lakes does not offer this anthropology course as IB instead of AP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:56PM

>
> After I read the letter the FM PTA sent out, it
> seems maybe she used the school directory to
> randomly send out emails to parents about whether
> they wanted to stay at SL, Oakton or be split
> into two. She did not give out the results of the
> survey favoring SL or Oakton. I think what she
> did was illegal. Does anybody agree? What I
> don't understand also is that Castro and the PTA
> pres chose to live in FM knowing they were in the
> Oakton district. If they had liked SL then why
> didn't they find places in the SL district in the
> first place?

I am in Fox Mill and know both of these people. They are good people, with views different than my own. I know nothing about the petition, so cannot comment other than to say that, if Erika erred, I chalk it up to just being human. No one on this blog, or in this debate, has been flawless. I know a decent amount about the survey, and do think it should have been done differently. But, again I do not harbor any grudges. The Fox Mill PTA president is a nice person who, at worst, did not think through her approach. But, she had little time to react to a request from Stu.

I do not think that the surveys or petitions have had or will have any real effect on the vote on the 28th. Smith, Gibson and Strauss would have voted in favor regardless of any survey or petition. Hone, Raney and a few others will vote against it regardless of any survey or petition. None of them is surprised that there are some in favor of RD, and probably many who do not care either way.

I was at the meeting where Stu and Cathy presented options 11 and 12 and the SB decided to have another hearing. They all said that they did not need another hearing in order to vote their conscience. They implied they were doing the hearings just to give a nod to due process. They acknowledged that the final plan will likely look different than any of the current plans, and there will be no public comment session.

I am against RD b/c of IB and b/c of the process undertaken. On an intellectual level, if not for IB, I would be neutral about RD. From what I have seen, IB is not the best match for math/science kids, and may hurt a kid who moves into or out of the area.

A plus on RD for me is that SL is closer, and we know a handful of families from various Reston sports. I know no one from the communities east of Fox Mill. I do identify more with Reston than Vienna. (I also identify with the Madison folks who say they identify with Vienna but not Reston.) But the vast majority of our friends in Fox Mill and Floris are opposed for additional reasons. Most have siblings currently or previously in Oakton. I went to a different HS than my younger brother, and I strongly believe that we both suffered as a result. I would have liked to have been in the same school as my brother so we could have seen each other, rooted for the same team, etc. Logistically, it was a royal pain for my parents. I cannot fault my friends for their opinions, as they are valid. Those who dismiss the views of pro-Oakton families are callous.

On an emotional level, the advocacy by SL PTA/BSG is distateful. It feels like an ambush as it seems like they have been plotting this with Gibson for so long, leaving the other communities unprepared to reply. May not be true, but it seems that way. I also do not think SL PTA/BSG have any right to pick neighborhoods as it just seems racist. SL BSG/PTA should stay on message: "We want X more kids for the following reasons ____." That is it.

Also, the PTA/BSG has missed a PR opportunity by not announcing plans for an AP/IB analysis/referendum. I hear they have a 'welcoming committee' in the works. I hope the committee has a spot on the agenda for "IB/AP transition - next steps."

But the worst thing on the emotional side for me is that I think the SB process has been dishonest in this entire process. They have been dishonest by articulating arbitrary rationale, and then arbitrarily replacing the arbitrary rationale with different arbitrary rationale. It does not go down well, and pushes rationale people to dig their heels in. So, as usual, it is the politicians who are to blame for enflaming things through cronyism and ineptitude.

So, I hope the SB will just defer. There is no urgency to do anything. Can any advocate for RD on this forum tell my why it has to happen now? That is, why can't this at least wait until they are ready to address Coppermine?

Sorry for the rambling...still trying to get my head around this issue while remaining rational and civil. Would love SLPP, Truth or Verity to answer the questions in the previous paragraph.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 12:58PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IDon'tKnow Wrote:
> > ... I think the
> > PTA president would have been better off just
> > telling people to write to the school board
> that
> > they do not approve of any of the scenarios.
>
> --
> http://www.foxmillpta.com/pdfs/06-07/Minutes_S_Lak
> es_High_School.pdf
> "Minutes from the Meeting on South Lakes High
> School, Tuesday March 20
> (taken by Rona Ackerman)
>
> These notes are long. Much time was spent with the
> sort of "We love our school" comments I would
> expect every such visiting group to present. I
> select ("cherry pick") a few comments from Ms
> Ackerman's minutes for your consideration:
>
> "... The number of students taking the full IB
> diploma has been rising steadily—52 seniors, 53
> juniors, and 75 sophomores are expected to receive
> the diploma. The passing rates for all students
> taking AP or IB exams from 2004-2006 is 81%. ...
> The math and science classes also include writing
> components and make you think. ... Bruce Butler
> said that comparing the AP to the IB was like
> comparing a Lamborghini to Ferrari. They are
> equally challenging. ... Most east coast schools
> accept it; some less progressive states may not be
> familiar with it. ... South Lakes is very excited
> about the increase in population because it will
> allow them to expand the elective opportunities,
> engineering and language programs, and they will
> be getting a culinary arts program. The school
> offers 5 languages, and this year replaced
> American Sign Language because it was not accepted
> as a language for IB. ..."
>
> Ms Ackerman only took the minutes and is not
> responsible for what was said. HOWEVER:
>
> "The number of students taking the full IB diploma
> has been rising steadily—52 seniors, 53 juniors,
> and 75 sophomores are expected to receive the
> diploma" is false logic. IB advocates use the
> greater number of younger students in the program
> to imply interest is rising. They should also show
> the dropout rate: Of those 52 seniors, only 45
> earned the IB Diploma. How many of last year's
> sophomores and juniors are still IB Diploma
> Candidates?
>
> "The passing rates for all students taking AP or
> IB exams from 2004-2006 is 81%" does not break out
> HL, SL, and AP. We know that in 05-06 only 21 SLHS
> students earned the IB Diploma and only three took
> any AP exams.
>
> "The math and science classes also include writing
> components and make you think" is one of the major
> differences between AP and IB. When SLHS holds its
> discussions of AP and IB it needs at least one
> meeting to look in depth at the differences in
> what is actually taught in AP and IB English and
> social studies classrooms. A second meeting will
> be needed to examine the IB and AP methodologies
> of teaching math and science.
>
> "Bruce Butler said that comparing the AP to the IB
> was like comparing a Lamborghini to Ferrari. They
> are equally challenging." We are back to a
> recurring issue: IB costs considerably more than
> AP. If they are "the same only different" then
> FCPS should dump the more expensive programme.
>
> "Most east coast schools accept it; some less
> progressive states may not be familiar with it."
> Wait a minute on this one. Who used the word
> "progressive" - Butler or Ackerman? Is "less
> progressive" a political term meaning less
> democrat? Or did the writer or speaker imply the
> natives on the other side of the Appalachians are
> backward and uneducated?
>
> "South Lakes is very excited about the increase in
> population because it will allow them to expand
> the elective opportunities, engineering and
> language programs, and they will be getting a
> culinary arts program. The school offers 5
> languages, and this year replaced American Sign
> Language because it was not accepted as a language
> for IB." Are we finally at the "real" reason for
> this whole RD? How many FCPS high schools offer
> MORE than five languages? SLHS admits it had to
> dump a program (sign language) because it is not
> recognized by the IBO - that point will be of
> interest to many.
>
> SLHS can offer their engineering and culinary arts
> program as Academy offerings without any RD. So
> why are we going through all this?


Holy crap. Dropping ASL? (American Sign Language). That is bound to peeve off hearing impaired constituents if they found out about that. Or anyone who would like to take ASL. Sounds like discrimination maybe? What language was replaced for ASL? If SL is doing all this then like you mentioned and like you asked, WHY THE NEED FOR A RD WHEN IN THIS MANNER COULD BE AS A MAGNET PROGRAM? MB is right, it is getting murkier alright.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 01:30PM

curious redux Wrote:
So, I hope the SB will just defer. There is no urgency to do anything. Can any advocate for RD on this forum tell my why it has to happen now? That is, why can't this at least wait until they are ready to address Coppermine?

First, let's start from the premise that we all care about our kids and want what's best for them. None of us are bad people. Including the people in the School Board. If you can't assume this, then don't read on.

From my perspective, in the context of this study, the school board is trying to do what they are tasked to do, which is to ensure the all FCPS kids get a fair shake? Do you agree with this?

Let's just assume that is true, for the sake of argument. People say that Stu only cares about South Lakes and not Floris and Fox Mill. Well, the past 8 years at SL proves this wrong at the get go. Also, past redistrictings have put SL where it is today, so I don't think it is true that Stu only cares about SL. I also don't think it's true that not getting what you want means the SB isn't listening. By this reasoning, SL should get more students without a magnet, but no school should have to go. See the conundrum? There is no possible way everyone gets what they want. As a leader, what then do you do? The best you can.

And some are bound to be unhappy. Don't you ever run into this situation at work or with your kids?

They are listening, and that is why the new options. I think the new options demonstrate the difficulty of the process and why no option is perfect in every way.

Why does the redistricting have to happen now? Because SL has been suffering from underenrollment for a long time. They probably waited until the renovation was done for obvious reasons, and that delayed the redistricting too.

There is never going to be a perfect time to do the redistricting, there will always be another reason to hold off, and SL will continue to suffer. Let's see all the reasons people have brought up so far:
Langley not involved
Westfield and CHnatilly not overcrowded
IB
Coppermine
Performance issues

Well, then, these are just vague enough and difficult enough that we shouldn't see any relief until about 10 years from now, if ever, when all these issues can be cleared up. And all your kids are out of school How convenient.

A county-wide study is not a magic bullet and will lead to the same issues of people not wanting to leave their school, except with many more people getting riled up. A magnet is not a magic bullet and will only exacerbate the problem at SL.

That's how I see it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2008 01:48PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: misleading presentations ()
Date: February 18, 2008 01:40PM

curious redux Wrote: >
>
> I am in Fox Mill and know both of these people.
> They are good people, with views different than my
> own. I know nothing about the petition, so cannot
> comment other than to say that, if Erika erred, I
> chalk it up to just being human. No one on this
> blog, or in this debate, has been flawless. I
> know a decent amount about the survey, and do
> think it should have been done differently. But,
> again I do not harbor any grudges. The Fox Mill
> PTA president is a nice person who, at worst, did
> not think through her approach. But, she had
> little time to react to a request from Stu.
>

On Fox Mill, the key worry is not how the survey was done, but why the results were presented in such a loaded way.

My sense of the temperature of the water is that, unless the 100 people were carefully chosen, then by far the majority would have voted for staying at Oakton.

If that were or were not the case, why not report it? I can't believe that it was an oversight.

It positioned the opinion of the polled group as being for Version X of RD rather Version Y or RD - where I'd be very suprised if the majority was not for NO RD.

Would anyone like to share the full results?

On Erika, I'm afraid that I can't be so generous. Her survey was presented to give the impression of widespread support in Fox Mill and other affected communities when she must have known full well that it was entirely dominated by SL community - clear at even the most cursory inspection.

The two individuals are entitled to their own views and preferences but both have been at best disingenuous in their methods and presentation to the detriment of the communities they claim to represent

All's fair in love and information war I guess.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 18, 2008 01:53PM

ay.
>
> Why does the redistricting have to happen now?
> Because SL has been suffering from underenrollment
> for a long time. They probably waited until the
> renovation was done for obvious reasons, and that
> delayed the redistricting too.
>
> There is never going to be a perfect time to do
> the redistricting, there will always be another
> reason to hold off, and SL will continue to
> suffer. That's how I see it.

But they are going to do it again next year! Coppermine is not just a plan. The poor people at Floris are really getting screwed in this. One more year will not hurt. The influx of kids only helps 9th grade. Is it not true that the impact of the new kids on course selection will not be felt until the 11th grade? So, only rising 9th graders in the current SL boundary are affected, and only in the 20012-2013 school year. Between now and then, the SB and staff can be true to their promise of selling IB to the surrounding middle schools (i.e., host IB nights at Rachel Carson etc to attract more pupil placements into SL). I think waiting till Coppermine is too obvious to ignore. Just an opinion, but one I hope the SB arrives at as well.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NavyGetsOut ()
Date: February 18, 2008 01:55PM

SLPP wrote:
From my perspective, in the context of this study, the school board is trying to do what they are tasked to do, which is to ensure the all FCPS kids get a fair shake? Do you agree with this?

I bet that we would disagree on what it means to give 'all FCPS kids' a fair shake. You are obviously focused on just SLHS we are obviously focused on our children.

This is the issue spewed out over 200 pages on this post. It comes down to what do the SBMs think is fair for 'all FCPS kids'. They are bound to disagree with eachother as well. Lets hope the numbers reflect the numbers here.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 01:57PM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ay.
> >
> > Why does the redistricting have to happen now?
> > Because SL has been suffering from
> underenrollment
> > for a long time. They probably waited until
> the
> > renovation was done for obvious reasons, and
> that
> > delayed the redistricting too.
> >
> > There is never going to be a perfect time to do
> > the redistricting, there will always be another
> > reason to hold off, and SL will continue to
> > suffer. That's how I see it.
>
> But they are going to do it again next year!
> Coppermine is not just a plan. The poor people at
> Floris are really getting screwed in this. One
> more year will not hurt. The influx of kids only
> helps 9th grade. Is it not true that the impact
> of the new kids on course selection will not be
> felt until the 11th grade? So, only rising 9th
> graders in the current SL boundary are affected,
> and only in the 20012-2013 school year. Between
> now and then, the SB and staff can be true to
> their promise of selling IB to the surrounding
> middle schools (i.e., host IB nights at Rachel
> Carson etc to attract more pupil placements into
> SL). I think waiting till Coppermine is too
> obvious to ignore. Just an opinion, but one I
> hope the SB arrives at as well.


This is what at-large-member Raney was saying too. Do this redestricting with coppermine. You will get a year to study what the problem at South Lakes is and whether AP/IB can we worked out during that year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 02:04PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> ... They probably waited until the
> renovation was done for obvious reasons, and that
> delayed the redistricting too. ...
>
------------
I keep reading this concept in different ways from different posters. Some phase it as RD is justified because the renovation was so expensive.

I don't understand; please tell us again what renovation has to to with redistricting.

Hayfield was just renovated and then had students moved OUT to SCSS.

The last high school RD I see that was totally unrelated to the opening of a new school was students who were moved out of Fairfax HS who live west of 123 and who attended Oak View Elementary (directly across Sideburn Road from Robinson). However, these students were NOT moved into Robinson, which has room. They instead are transported past Robinson to go to over-crowded Frost and Woodson. This change was made just BEFORE the Woodson renovation.

When has FCPS EVER redistricted BECAUSE of a renovation that did not increase capacity?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 02:14PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > ... They probably waited until the
> > renovation was done for obvious reasons, and
> that
> > delayed the redistricting too. ...
> >
> ------------
> I keep reading this concept in different ways from
> different posters. Some phase it as RD is
> justified because the renovation was so
> expensive.
>
> I don't understand; please tell us again what
> renovation has to to with redistricting.
>
> Hayfield was just renovated and then had students
> moved OUT to SCSS.
>
> The last high school RD I see that was totally
> unrelated to the opening of a new school was
> students who were moved out of Fairfax HS who live
> west of 123 and who attended Oak View Elementary
> (directly across Sideburn Road from Robinson).
> However, these students were NOT moved into
> Robinson, which has room. They instead are
> transported past Robinson to go to over-crowded
> Frost and Woodson. This change was made just
> BEFORE the Woodson renovation.
>
> When has FCPS EVER redistricted BECAUSE of a
> renovation that did not increase capacity?


South Lakes had empty seats with or without the renovation. But they probably delayed redistricting because they didn't want new kids on top of the construction going on, so they waited until renovation is going to be complete. This redistricting has been discussed ever since I moved here four years ago, and it was planned to be done when the renovation was complete.

So, they didn't redistrict sooner because they wanted to wait until renovation was complete.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSAnnouncement ()
Date: February 18, 2008 02:16PM

Don’t Miss These Important Meetings
on High School Redistricting!

Redistricting Action Meeting
Hilton Washington Dulles Airport Hotel
The Potomac Ballroom
13869 Park Center Road, Herndon
Monday, February 18, 7:00PM

FCPS Final Redistricting Hearing
Jackson Middle School
Front Entrance
3020 Gallows Road, Falls Church
Tuesday, February 19, 6:00PM


Last week, Fairfax County School Board members Stu Gibson and Kathy Smith proposed two new West County redistricting options which could move more people and split additional neighborhoods, including the community of Fox Mill.

The school board will hold its final boundary review public hearing on Tuesday, February 19 and will focus on these new options.

FairfaxCAPs urges people in the affected communities to come out in full force to express their views on these two new divisive proposals.

To help prepare, FairfaxCAPS will hold a Redistricting Action Meeting on Monday, February 18 to address these new proposals in detail, discuss their implications and prepare a community response.

Then on February 19, FairfaxCAPS will be organizing a public demonstration in front of Jackson Middle School and coordinating and encouraging speakers on behalf of the community at the hearing.

Please plan on attending both meetings. Bring your family, friends and neighbors. This is the moment when your involvement will make a critical difference. If you want to keep your community together and attend your current schools, be present and be counted.

To learn more or to become more involved, visit www.FairfaxCAPS.org.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: February 18, 2008 02:44PM

South Lakes Pyramid Parent - you ask why South Lakes should be continually defending itself. I find it hard to believe that you are really asking this question - although in total fairness, it is likely due to the fact you are emotionally involved in the matter. The facts and situation at hand are simple to explain. South Lakes and its supporters want more students. The reasons for declining enrollment are likely many, but at some level the leadership at FCPS is responsible for the decline. So in the end, like it or not, South Lakes and its supporters have the burden of persuasion - period. Fair or not, "tormented" or not, that is the way it is, and some hurdles and steps come with that territory. SLHS wants to change the status quo, and unfortunately, many of those in the status quo situation are doing just fine - ask most parents at Fox Mill how highly they think of Oakton (although in my own view it has its challenges, too). The repetitive mistake, if I can call it as such, that appears to be being made among even the most thoughtful of South Lakes supporters (and there are a quite a few) is that they often act and believe that they don't have the burden of persuasion and that a recitation of mere statistical imbalances, along with shop worn notions relating one form of "ism" or another - elitism or racism are the two favorites - should automatically persuade and carry the day. Note that even if RD comes through, South Lakes and its supporters will arguably even have a greater burden of persuasion than they do now - mere administrative fiat will likely not bring significant numbers of students to the fore - there are simply too many other higher functioning schools surrounding it - and that challenge must be met in years to come. This is why an ad hominem attack on Neen and others who share her views are not only probative of nothing but actually harmful. What would persuade observers is taking Neen's views as to the inelasticity of the FCPS bureaucracy and management - and turn them on their head - and begin to convey a sense of elasticity in terms of progressing towards excellence. And since any sense of elasticity will likely not come from the school system - they like to refurbish buildings rather than tackle the difficult stuff -- it is imperative that parents and bright people such as yourself begin to inculcate that sense (although in fairness, you finally appear to have a good principal to work with).

Your post above starts in that direction - showing emerging numbers in the IB program is a small step - but frankly,it will take a significant and vigilant sea change to persuade people in any great number. And I am not sure that any sea change can take place with the current members of the School Board at the helm - they are not the visionaries, for example, that gathered to effect real progress in Massachusetts (the best academic success story in America as of late), where progressives in that state for once became really progressive and focused on hard core academic solutions - including real math, phonics above all else, and discipline without fear of being accused of an enemy of diversity. or multi-culturalism.

As I said, Neen is often correct when she pokes at the soft underbelly of the educational regime - some of which applies to the current state of South Lakes -and note her source of authority comes not from any moral posture, but rather from a very emerging body of evidence that the progressive and warmed over porridge that the educational establishment has been serving simply doesn't work in terms of producing academic progress. My own view is that she at times overstates the case, but since so many respond by name calling rather than with intelligent counterclaims (part of responding as such would be to accede to those certain areas where she is spot on),she can continue to relentlessly and easily pounce on themes that resound with a reluctant population. Kudos to her frankly, and my own views are that it would be prudent to cease to keep taking the bait and attractant she sets and begin the work of persuading. It is work that will be required long after redistricting.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:02PM

curious redux Wrote:
> ... Between
> now and then, the SB and staff can be true to
> their promise of selling IB to the surrounding
> middle schools (i.e., host IB nights at Rachel
> Carson etc to attract more pupil placements into
> SL).
-------------
PLEASE spare us more sales pitches. The Instructional Services' "Advanced Placement And International Baccalaureate Fact Book" dated February 2008 included a 16-page full-color IBO sales packet titled "Schools' Guide to The Diploma Programme" yet did not include a single page from The College Board about AP. It is difficult not to perceive a bias. [By the way, that IBO guide is six years old (dated March 2002). Why didn't FCPS use more current data?]

"The programmes of the IBO should not be marginal in IB World Schools; it is expected that they will positively influence those sections of a school not following an IB programme." ["Diploma Programme School guide to the authorization visit" November 2006. p. 3] This states all students in an IB school will be "influenced" by the IB Programme whether they are in it or not.

As I wrote above, when SLHS holds its discussions of AP and IB it needs at least one meeting to look in depth at the differences in what is actually taught in AP and IB English and social studies classrooms. A second meeting will be needed to examine the IB and AP methodologies of teaching math and science. A third meeting will be needed to discuss the electives. At each of these meetings, have SLHS IB teachers bring their textbooks and other required reading and course syllabus and samples of students' work. In addition, and this is essential, have Oakton or Chantilly or Westfield AP teachers do the same so parents can see the real differences in what is taught in AP and IB.

Once the community understands the differences in instruction, THEN have a fourth night when the SL IB coordinator presents the IB Programme as a whole. Have an AP coordinator do the same. Maybe have some recent FCPS grads from both AP and IB schools talk about their experiences at UVA, VA Tech, etc.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: navy area parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:08PM

I want to know if it was Ackerman or Butler who used the words "less progressive" to describe states that don't generally accept IB. What a loaded statement.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:14PM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If these are the only AP courses offered at
> South
> > Lakes next year, then it appears that somebody
> > chose AP HUman Geography over many AP classes
> that
> > are given almost universal respect by US
> colleges
> > in their placement and credit policies such as
> AP
> > US History, AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, AP
> > Biology, AP Chemistry, AP PHysics C, and AP
> > Computer Science AB.
> >
> > Has anyone checked to see what colleges think
> > about AP Human Geography?
> >
> >
>
> I do not see why what colleges think is relevant
> in the big picture. If it is true that they are
> getting these classes, I think it is great. They
> must have figured out a need/interest of their
> kids. And it is reasonable to assume that at
> least for cost reasons, they would not have
> replaced/augmented a core IB subject with a
> corresponding AP class. I think any AP class is a
> step in the right direction if you subscribe to
> the notion that AP should replace IP.

Colleges don't think much of Human Geography. Most colleges, including VA public colleges, do not give credit for Human Geography. It was a very silly first offering of AP at South Lakes. AP government is a much better option, but I have not seen that confirmed.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:18PM

S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

No, it is all nice-nice talk to bait and switch.
> The parents that South Lakes thinks are coming to
> make a chage, aren't. The bridges have already
> been burnt and it isn't so much about IB/AP
> anymore. Sorry, but with the likes of Truthteller
> and IBVeritas and all the other characters, forget
> it. We don't want anything to do with you, South
> Lakes. If you think that Thomas More does not
> play nice, then you haven't seen anything. And
> besides no-one at South Lakes showed interest in
> AP (except T. More) until the new scenarios were
> rolled out the door.

Sadly, I think you are correct. The process has been so horrible, pitting everyone against their neighbors, that it is now too late to mend fences. Most parents will not send their children to South Lakes, regardless of the school board vote on the 28th.

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Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 03:19PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid Parent - you ask why South
> Lakes should be continually defending itself. I
> find it hard to believe that you are really asking
> this question - although in total fairness, it is
> likely due to the fact you are emotionally
> involved in the matter. The facts and situation
> at hand are simple to explain. South Lakes and
> its supporters want more students. The reasons for
> declining enrollment are likely many, but at some
> level the leadership at FCPS is responsible for
> the decline. So in the end, like it or not, South
> Lakes and its supporters have the burden of
> persuasion - period. Fair or not, "tormented" or
> not, that is the way it is, and some hurdles and
> steps come with that territory. SLHS wants to
> change the status quo, and unfortunately, many of
> those in the status quo situation are doing just
> fine - ask most parents at Fox Mill how highly
> they think of Oakton (although in my own view it
> has its challenges, too). The repetitive mistake,
> if I can call it as such, that appears to be being
> made among even the most thoughtful of South Lakes
> supporters (and there are a quite a few) is that
> they often act and believe that they don't have
> the burden of persuasion and that a recitation of
> mere statistical imbalances, along with shop worn
> notions relating one form of "ism" or another -
> elitism or racism are the two favorites - should
> automatically persuade and carry the day. Note
> that even if RD comes through, South Lakes and its
> supporters will arguably even have a greater
> burden of persuasion than they do now - mere
> administrative fiat will likely not bring
> significant numbers of students to the fore -
> there are simply too many other higher functioning
> schools surrounding it - and that challenge must
> be met in years to come. This is why an ad
> hominem attack on Neen and others who share her
> views are not only probative of nothing but
> actually harmful. What would persuade observers
> is taking Neen's views as to the inelasticity of
> the FCPS bureaucracy and management - and turn
> them on their head - and begin to convey a sense
> of elasticity in terms of progressing towards
> excellence. And since any sense of elasticity
> will likely not come from the school system - they
> like to refurbish buildings rather than tackle the
> difficult stuff -- it is imperative that parents
> and bright people such as yourself begin to
> inculcate that sense (although in fairness, you
> finally appear to have a good principal to work
> with).
>
> Your post above starts in that direction - showing
> emerging numbers in the IB program is a small step
> - but frankly,it will take a significant and
> vigilant sea change to persuade people in any
> great number. And I am not sure that any sea
> change can take place with the current members of
> the School Board at the helm - they are not the
> visionaries, for example, that gathered to effect
> real progress in Massachusetts (the best academic
> success story in America as of late), where
> progressives in that state for once became really
> progressive and focused on hard core academic
> solutions - including real math, phonics above all
> else, and discipline without fear of being accused
> of an enemy of diversity. or multi-culturalism.
>
>
> As I said, Neen is often correct when she pokes at
> the soft underbelly of the educational regime -
> some of which applies to the current state of
> South Lakes -and note her source of authority
> comes not from any moral posture, but rather from
> a very emerging body of evidence that the
> progressive and warmed over porridge that the
> educational establishment has been serving simply
> doesn't work in terms of producing academic
> progress. My own view is that she at times
> overstates the case, but since so many respond by
> name calling rather than with intelligent
> counterclaims (part of responding as such would be
> to accede to those certain areas where she is spot
> on),she can continue to relentlessly and easily
> pounce on themes that resound with a reluctant
> population. Kudos to her frankly, and my own
> views are that it would be prudent to cease to
> keep taking the bait and attractant she sets and
> begin the work of persuading. It is work that
> will be required long after redistricting.



Quantum,
I don't attack Neen's views, just her style.

Also, we are parents, not salespeople,try as we might. If you think we have the burden, think again. We are fed up with having to defend our school, so be it. I'm sure there will be some pupil placement, but many will come to South Lakes if redistricted. I think you have to place this forum in the broader context and realize that many people have not been that involved with this process, and naturally, those are the ones that will come.

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