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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 06, 2008 02:55PM

res_sler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > MI Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > "A parent or guardian can request a student
> > > transfer for his or her child to enroll in an
> > > Advanced Placement (AP) or
> > > International Baccalaureate (IB) program at a
> > > school with space available that is closest
> to
> > the
> > > student’s residence or base
> > > school."
> > >
> > > What if there is no space available? As I
> > believe
> > > there will be numerous applicants for AP out
> of
> > > SL.
> >
> >
> > This is why SL should have thought about that
> way
> > before the boundary study even started.
>
> You got to be kidding - You think we went through
> all this, just to allow pupil placements to occur.
> The optimal number of 2000 per school was not just
> thought out of thin air. Chantilly and Westfield
> and Oakton by that standard will be over capacity
> and NO pupil placements will be allowed. You guys
> hate SB and all who support SL, but they are not
> stupid - So get real and face it that this is well
> planned.

How is this well planned? Obviously SL had alot of planning and one of them was to disrupt those neighborhoods targeted for redistricting....what kind of right is that?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 06, 2008 02:56PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:

> ... the way Richard Montgomery gets
> around the IB math issue is that they actually
> offer sufficient IB math to allow the diploma
> candidates to take IB math, but they end the IB
> sequence at SL. They don't offer HL. Instead,
> all IB kids take the SL course to get the required
> IB math credit, then take AB or BC AP Calculus if
> they want additional math...
.
>
Thank you. That makes a lot more sense. An earlier poster [January 05, 2008 06:30PM] had stated that "this IB magnet also substitutes AP Calculus for the IB math courses, then has its IB students take the IB math tests in addition to the AP math tests" but you have more clearly explained that Montgomery students take the IB SL math course AND test and THEN take AP Calculus.

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Re: high school redistricting-Richard Montgomery Math Sequence
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: January 06, 2008 04:07PM

Here's a link to the math sequence at Richard Montgomery HS. The flow chart on the bottom indicates that the kids take Calc BC after something called IB Precalc, and that they take the IB SL Math test without taking an IB Math class. Perhaps the math sequences at this IB magnet is different than the math sequence at the neighborhood high schools in Montgomery County that offer IB.

http://www.portalcontrol.com/Portals/3e4953d2-72cf-4a97-b551-73409bc678a0/IBgroup5.pdf

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 06, 2008 04:17PM

I am still trying to understand how our faithful Hunter Mill School Board Rep, Stooge Gibson came to realize that only "some people get to choose where they want to send their children to school. Am I the only one who feels that some serious back room deals were cut, prior to this boundary study?

http://www.arlingtonconnection.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=14732&paper=73&cat=106


SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS Rita Thompson and Mychele Brickner, both at-large members, without mentioning the words “boundary change,” suggested the School Board should be looking at reapportioning the attendance areas to address the overcrowding of some schools, while others are underenrolled. The pair did not find support among their fellow members.
"We have overcapacity at Westfield and overcapacity at Langley, and we're under capacity at South Lakes. I understand the political ramifications, but we are responsible to all the taxpayers to show we are being responsible with their money, and we aren't trying to address this," Brickner said.

"A lot of people choose where to live based on the high schools where they live. It has been suggested before that all of Reston should go to South Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to go to South Lakes. I love South Lakes. I have a daughter who went there and another that is going to graduate from there, but North Point Village doesn't want to go there," said Stuart Gibson (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the community and float the idea of a boundary change, go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting that measure."

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 06, 2008 04:24PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am still trying to understand how our faithful
> Hunter Mill School Board Rep, Stooge Gibson came
> to realize that only "some people get to choose
> where they want to send their children to school.
> Am I the only one who feels that some serious back
> room deals were cut, prior to this boundary
> study?
>
> http://www.arlingtonconnection.com/article.asp?arc
> hive=true&article=14732&paper=73&cat=106
>
>
> SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS Rita Thompson and Mychele
> Brickner, both at-large members, without
> mentioning the words “boundary change,” suggested
> the School Board should be looking at
> reapportioning the attendance areas to address the
> overcrowding of some schools, while others are
> underenrolled. The pair did not find support among
> their fellow members.
> "We have overcapacity at Westfield and
> overcapacity at Langley, and we're under capacity
> at South Lakes. I understand the political
> ramifications, but we are responsible to all the
> taxpayers to show we are being responsible with
> their money, and we aren't trying to address
> this," Brickner said.
>
> "A lot of people choose where to live based on the
> high schools where they live. It has been
> suggested before that all of Reston should go to
> South Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to
> go to South Lakes. I love South Lakes. I have a
> daughter who went there and another that is going
> to graduate from there, but North Point Village
> doesn't want to go there," said Stuart Gibson
> (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the
> community and float the idea of a boundary change,
> go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting
> that measure."

Stu Gibson actually said that? What the duck? He should support having all of the Reston communities to go to South Lakes, not be selective in this case. We all are fighting for our rights and what is the solution here? Let North Reston do whatever they want?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 06, 2008 06:51PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > "A lot of people choose where to live based on the high schools where they
> > live. It has been suggested before that all of Reston should go to South
> > Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to go to South Lakes. I love South
> > Lakes. I have a daughter who went there and another that is going to graduate > > from there, but North Point Village doesn't want to go there," said Stuart
> > Gibson (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the community and float
> > the idea of a boundary change, go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting
> > that measure."
>
> Stu Gibson actually said that?

Of course he did. It was an election year and, while he knew that a redistricting was coming after the SL renovation was finished, he didn't want to rile up the troops in the Aldrin and Armstrong precincts. They were so pacified that they didn't even bother to show up during the 2006 election. They knew the fix was in.

> What the duck?

That's what I said when I found out about it.

> He should support having all of the Reston communities to go to South Lakes,
> not be selective in this case. We all are fighting for our rights
> and what is the solution here? Let North Reston
> do whatever they want?

Fox Mill and Floris precincts historically vote Republican. Armstrong and Aldrin are reliably Democrat. Stu promises his Democratic constituents what they want 4 years before the boundary study starts and sticks it to the precincts that historically vote against him.

All politics baby. It's got nothing to do with education or efficiency.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 06, 2008 07:58PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > > "A lot of people choose where to live based on
> the high schools where they
> > > live. It has been suggested before that all of
> Reston should go to South
> > > Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to go
> to South Lakes. I love South
> > > Lakes. I have a daughter who went there and
> another that is going to graduate > > from there,
> but North Point Village doesn't want to go there,"
> said Stuart
> > > Gibson (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go
> out in the community and float
> > > the idea of a boundary change, go ahead, but I
> for one will not be supporting
> > > that measure."
> >
> > Stu Gibson actually said that?
>
> Of course he did. It was an election year and,
> while he knew that a redistricting was coming
> after the SL renovation was finished, he didn't
> want to rile up the troops in the Aldrin and
> Armstrong precincts. They were so pacified that
> they didn't even bother to show up during the 2006
> election. They knew the fix was in.
>
> > What the duck?
>
> That's what I said when I found out about it.
>
> > He should support having all of the Reston
> communities to go to South Lakes,
> > not be selective in this case. We all are
> fighting for our rights
> > and what is the solution here? Let North
> Reston
> > do whatever they want?
>
> Fox Mill and Floris precincts historically vote
> Republican. Armstrong and Aldrin are reliably
> Democrat. Stu promises his Democratic
> constituents what they want 4 years before the
> boundary study starts and sticks it to the
> precincts that historically vote against him.
>
> All politics baby. It's got nothing to do with
> education or efficiency.


Yes..it reeks of political games--such shame.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 06, 2008 08:36PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I am sure that your child and many others love
> Westfield just as it is. My kids loved South
> Lakes, too. I was quite happy with the size of
> the school from a social perspective, but the
> reality is that in Fairfax County classes are
> apportioned relative to the number of children
> signing up and it simply won't do for South Lakes
> students to be missing the boat when it comes to
> all of the things I mentioned in my lengthy post
> above.

Can you explain what boats your children are missing? This redistricting is being done for what courses? Or is it just for extra curricular activities?

There needs to be a better reason than extra curricular activities. South Lakes isn't the only small school that might not have every elective that every student would like to have. Yet only the people in the west are being forced to disrupt their lives to fill the wants of South Lakes parents.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 06, 2008 08:42PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I can predict that Mr.Butler will do amazingly
> > well in just one year, 2008-2009. Then no one
> > will need to worry about the kids on the
> bottom,
> > they'll be well hidden by the influx from the
> > redistricting. Oh happy day! Instant
> improvement!
>
> The projected 226 freshman won't have much impact
> in 2008-09.

You are right, particularly when they will be VERY lucky if the get even 100 students. Just another reason why they will send more than just freshman to South Lakes. They will send at least freshman and sophomores, perhaps juniors too, since real IB is only a two year program.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 06, 2008 08:46PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > So a quick online fact check indicates that
> last
> > year four of eight IB high schools offered no
> IB
> > courses, none of them offered any AP science,
> and
> > only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and
> > not BC Calculus.
>
> Why are you looking at last year? We are talking
> about the here and now.

Oh? And things have changed this year in all those schools, except for South Lakes? And you would know this because............????

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 06, 2008 08:56PM

res_sler Wrote:

> You got to be kidding - You think we went through
> all this, just to allow pupil placements to occur.
> The optimal number of 2000 per school was not just
> thought out of thin air. Chantilly and Westfield
> and Oakton by that standard will be over capacity
> and NO pupil placements will be allowed. You guys
> hate SB and all who support SL, but they are not
> stupid - So get real and face it that this is well
> planned.

Only South Lakes will prevent students from pupil placing out of their school? I don't see how that would be legal to prevent only one group of students from having the choice of an AP program when the rest of the county has that option.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 06, 2008 09:05PM

>>>I am still trying to understand how our faithful Hunter Mill School Board Rep, Stooge Gibson came to realize that only "some people get to choose where they want to send their children to school. Am I the only one who feels that some serious back room deals were cut, prior to this boundary study?"<<<

WOW!!!!

Then he goes on to say, ""If someone wants to go
> out in the community and float
> > > the idea of a boundary change, go ahead, but I
> for one will not be supporting
> > > that measure."<<<

So, what changed over the last four years? Nothing. It was all about politics back then and it is now. He's mad because other pols cut back room deals that he didn't like, but he's perfectly happy to cut his own back room deals now.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: West Ox ()
Date: January 06, 2008 10:33PM

Neen, do you ever shut up? I am against redistricting and even I am sick of your fishwife harping. I pity your husband, if you have one.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:07AM

West Ox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen, do you ever shut up? I am against
> redistricting and even I am sick of your fishwife
> harping. I pity your husband, if you have one.


West Ox,

Opponents of RD have the right to something about the redistricting issue. Just as much as RD supporters have the right to say something about it ...it will never be 100 percent consensus with the redistricting because there is no viable solution fair to EVERYONE affected by the redistricting--why? Because politics played a big role in it.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WextOxNOT ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:49AM

West Ox is just one of those global welcoming parents of the South Lakes Community trying to silence the opposition.

If West Ox had any Cojones, he’d use his real “poster name” when making a personal attack.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Padre ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:48AM

WextOxNOT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> West Ox is just one of those global welcoming
> parents of the South Lakes Community trying to
> silence the opposition.
>
> If West Ox had any Cojones, he’d use his real
> “poster name” when making a personal attack.


Rave on, Neen (preferably at night). Your faithful adversary, Padre

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 11:54AM

SLVerity Wrote:
> Dear FR,
>
> Did you not read my post just prior where I asked
> you to accept that we just agree to disagree?
> Fact: South Lakes is the only IB school in Fairfax
> that does not offer any AP classes. Check for
> yourself. ...
------------------

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > So a quick online fact check indicates that
> last
> > year four of eight IB high schools offered no
> IB
> > courses, none of them offered any AP science,
> and
> > only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and
> > not BC Calculus.
>
> Why are you looking at last year? We are talking
> about the here and now.

-----------------------
Good morning SLV,

You stated, "Fact: South Lakes is the only IB school in Fairfax that does not offer any AP classes. Check for yourself."

I did check, as you suggested, and gave you the data that I found posted online, that four out of eight IB FCPS high schools did not offer any AP classes last year. You then wrote, "Why are you looking at last year? We are talking about the here and now."

Very well. This morning I called the Guidance offices at Edison (I spoke to Miss Brooks), Marshall (the contact did not identify herself), and Mt. Vernon (Linda Alvarez). The guidance office personnel at all three of these FCPS IB high schools state they do NOT repeat NOT offer ANY AP courses.

It would be rude of me to say your so-called fact was a lie, so I will simply call it a misstatement.

[However, I cannot prevent Neen from adding this misstatement to her list of your others, like insisting Woodson got IB before South Lakes did,]

Back to the point of the discussion: Marshall is considerably smaller than South Lakes, offers no AP courses, and still attracts quite a few students who pupil place from Langley and McLean.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: truthbetold ()
Date: January 07, 2008 12:24PM

I don't understand why people keep bringing up Marshall, except to demonstrate that it has a very successful IB program? -- older and therefore more mature than one at South Lakes, which is heading the same way. Marshall and SL are only 100 kids different in size, and it has a far lower percentage of disadvantaged kids (ESOL + FRM). The SOL scores are comparable. More kids are in the IB diploma program at Marshall because it's been around longer and the principal there (Jay Pearson) has used various means to get kids involved. The same kinds of things that Bruce Butler is doing now.

They really love the IB program. There is a huge international community there -- probably more diverse than almost any other school in Fairfax. Many military and state department families. It is one of the most vibrant schools I've ever entered.

Marshall parents also would like to see some AP courses there to fill in where IB doesn't offer classes. Size constrains this. I don't know what the capacity is at Marshall, but I do know parents want more kids there and are hoping to relieve Madison and Langley the next boundary go-around.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Get it right ()
Date: January 07, 2008 12:50PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand why people keep bringing up
> Marshall, except to demonstrate that it has a very
> successful IB program? -- older and therefore more
> mature than one at South Lakes, which is heading
> the same way. Marshall and SL are only 100 kids
> different in size, and it has a far lower
> percentage of disadvantaged kids (ESOL + FRM). The
> SOL scores are comparable. More kids are in the IB
> diploma program at Marshall because it's been
> around longer and the principal there (Jay
> Pearson) has used various means to get kids
> involved. The same kinds of things that Bruce
> Butler is doing now.
>
> They really love the IB program. There is a huge
> international community there -- probably more
> diverse than almost any other school in Fairfax.
> Many military and state department families. It is
> one of the most vibrant schools I've ever
> entered.
>
> Marshall parents also would like to see some AP
> courses there to fill in where IB doesn't offer
> classes. Size constrains this. I don't know what
> the capacity is at Marshall, but I do know parents
> want more kids there and are hoping to relieve
> Madison and Langley the next boundary go-around.


Marshall used to have a less than stellar reputation until a redistricting years back put more McLean and Vienna kids into their boundaries. Additionally, the demographics of the entire Tysons area have changed considerably over the years. There are very expensive single family homes, and townhomes in the boundaries although there is still some lower end housing.

With redistricting, a larger student body, a populace more educated about IB, and time for the program to mature as it has a George Mason, Marshall and elsewhere, South Lakes will have an excellent reputation as well.

Interesting note, we get quite a few State Dept. families in Reston as well. These are very educated people who have lived all over the world. Their children attend American and International Schools with other highly educated, well to do students. They don't fit the "stereotype" about Restonians, that we're all liberal global citizens. State Dept. people I've met have been very Conservativee, Republican with a big R. Maybe they know something?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:07PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand why people keep bringing up
> Marshall...but I do know parents
> want more kids there and are hoping to relieve
> Madison and Langley the next boundary go-around.

Pfft. Do some googles and then get out the tissues. My googling unearthed the Gibson North Point quote from years ago as well as other gems. If they don't send people to South Lakes who live down the street from people who go there then why would they bus kids from langley to marshall? Mclean high is a Marshall buffer for langley.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:18PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand why people keep bringing up
> Marshall, except to demonstrate that it has a very
> successful IB program? -- older and therefore more
> mature than one at South Lakes, which is heading
> the same way. Marshall and SL are only 100 kids
> different in size, and it has a far lower
> percentage of disadvantaged kids (ESOL + FRM). ...

Your choice, AP or IB. FCPS won't let you have both. I bring up Marshall again because last night [January 05, 2008 11:56PM] SLVerity posted, "Dear FR, ... Fact: South Lakes is the only IB school in Fairfax that does not offer any AP classes. Check for yourself. ..."

So I did check for myself and found SLV was again in error, that half, four of eight, FCPS IB high schools do not offer any AP courses. Marshall, as you point out, "has a very successful IB program" -- even though it is smaller than South Lakes. Logically South Lakes could succeed WITHOUT ANY ADDITIONAL STUDENTS. If you want B, fine, make it work for you without additional students, using Marshall as a model.

On the other hand, if, like other FCPS high schools in the northwest part of the County, you want a full program of AP courses, then get rid of IB.

As for ESOL and FRM, Stuart, an IB school about the same size as South Lakes, is considerably "more diverse," which disproves the argument that South Lakes needs to dilute its "disadvantaged" population with more "advantaged" students.

Bottom line: There is still no justification for this proposed boundary change.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: bypass ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:23PM

Get it right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truthbetold Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't understand why people keep bringing up
> > Marshall, except to demonstrate that it has a
> very
> > successful IB program? -- older and therefore
> more
> > mature than one at South Lakes, which is
> heading
> > the same way. Marshall and SL are only 100 kids
> > different in size, and it has a far lower
> > percentage of disadvantaged kids (ESOL + FRM).
> The
> > SOL scores are comparable. More kids are in the
> IB
> > diploma program at Marshall because it's been
> > around longer and the principal there (Jay
> > Pearson) has used various means to get kids
> > involved. The same kinds of things that Bruce
> > Butler is doing now.
> >
> > They really love the IB program. There is a
> huge
> > international community there -- probably more
> > diverse than almost any other school in
> Fairfax.
> > Many military and state department families. It
> is
> > one of the most vibrant schools I've ever
> > entered.
> >
> > Marshall parents also would like to see some AP
> > courses there to fill in where IB doesn't offer
> > classes. Size constrains this. I don't know
> what
> > the capacity is at Marshall, but I do know
> parents
> > want more kids there and are hoping to relieve
> > Madison and Langley the next boundary
> go-around.
>
>
> Marshall used to have a less than stellar
> reputation until a redistricting years back put
> more McLean and Vienna kids into their boundaries.
> Additionally, the demographics of the entire
> Tysons area have changed considerably over the
> years. There are very expensive single family
> homes, and townhomes in the boundaries although
> there is still some lower end housing.
>
> With redistricting, a larger student body, a
> populace more educated about IB, and time for the
> program to mature as it has a George Mason,
> Marshall and elsewhere, South Lakes will have an
> excellent reputation as well.
>
> Interesting note, we get quite a few State Dept.
> families in Reston as well. These are very
> educated people who have lived all over the world.
> Their children attend American and International
> Schools with other highly educated, well to do
> students. They don't fit the "stereotype" about
> Restonians, that we're all liberal global
> citizens. State Dept. people I've met have been
> very Conservativee, Republican with a big R.
> Maybe they know something?


The point is, You DON'T need resticting to do this.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: sos ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:26PM

Now that you mention State Dept. families, we had neighbors in Polo Club in the mid-90s who were so unhappy with South Lakes they took an assignment in Pakistan in order to get their daughter out of the school. They didn't realize what they were getting into when they moved to Reston from their previous posting.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:33PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Marshall, . . . They really love the IB program.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I have three nephews at Marshall and most parents at Marshall that I talk to spontaneously volunteer that they loath IB and want AP back.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:34PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It would be rude of me to say your so-called fact
> was a lie, so I will simply call it a
> misstatement.
>
> Back to the point of the discussion: Marshall is
> considerably smaller than South Lakes, offers no
> AP courses, and still attracts quite a few
> students who pupil place from Langley and McLean.

To the last point, Marshall has an older IB program and a much lower percentage of FRM and ESOL students. Also, to refer to what Taxpayer said above, the FCPS has routed students to the Marshall IB program while bypassing South Lakes.

To the prior statement, why do you accuse me of misstating without giving me the benefit of the doubt? Make no mistake - misstatement = to state wrongly or falsely, so don't try to be coy. I did not question your honesty when you presented last year's information, but rather asked you to look at the most current figures. Is it possible that the information I was given was incorrect? Yes. My information came from a very reliable source and I did not have reason to doubt it. In future, if you have evidence to the contrary as you seem to, please present it to correct the record but refrain from questioning my integrity.

Why did you impugn the information provided by Westfield dad regarding Richard Montgomery and its AP math curriculum before checking it out? You had no reason to doubt what he said, except for you so-called IB expertise. You were proven wrong, by not just Westfield Dad but also AP or IB mom, which calls into question all of the information that you have repeated over and over about IB.

I asked you a direct question about your level of intimacy with current knowledge about IB? Note: information from the much-vaunted Woodson effort in 1999-2001 is not current. I asked you directly if you or your children have ever been involved in an IB program - and I don't mean in opposing one. I think it is very relevant to the discussion. As far as I know, you have not answered my questions. I have no doubt that you will correct me if I am wrong. You seem to have a particular interest in going over my posts with a fine-tooth comb.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:36PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truthbetold Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Marshall, . . . They really love the IB
> program.
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble but I have three
> nephews at Marshall and most parents at Marshall
> that I talk to spontaneously volunteer that they
> loath IB and want AP back.

Just how many parents is most parents at Marshall that you talk to. Since you are a numbers guy, please quantify. Was it a valid statistical sampling or are you merely providing anecdotal information. Just trying to apply your usual standards.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:40PM

Forum Reader,

A lot of people on this thread, including one of your strongest advocates, do not consider Marshall to be a successful school. Go back and read for yourself. How do they judge success?: By its relative size to surrounding schools.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: truthbetold ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:57PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truthbetold Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Marshall, . . . They really love the IB
> program.
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble but I have three
> nephews at Marshall and most parents at Marshall
> that I talk to spontaneously volunteer that they
> loath IB and want AP back.

Mr. More: If I can be accused of being so powerfully persuasive that people do not dare argue with me in person about IB, then you can be accused of the same thing about your apparent loathing (??) of it -- I can imagine that your nephews would hate IB given their uncle's proclivities. I have very personal involvement with Marshall, and I can tell you most parents LOVE it. If you hear they don't, you have to ask if it's the same way parents LOATHE AP in the privacy of their own homes when there are faults in teachers or the way it is taught in a particular class. Or you have to ask about the source -- there are parents in this school system who LOATHE public school, teachers, government, you name it. They tend to be vocal, pissedoffattheworld, and posting here.

The rest of us can see the benefits of both AP and IB, and highly value our excellent public school system in this county -- all schools being among the top in the country and in the entire world. We appreciate what we have and simply seek to improve it without casting it to the dogs (as some here would like to do.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:58PM

bypass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get it right Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > truthbetold Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >> > >
> > > Marshall parents also would like to see some
> AP
> > > courses there to fill in where IB doesn't
> offer
> > > classes. Size constrains this. I don't know
> > what
> > > the capacity is at Marshall, but I do know
> > parents
> > > want more kids there and are hoping to
> relieve
> > > Madison and Langley the next boundary
> > go-around.
> >
> >
> > Marshall used to have a less than stellar
> > reputation until a redistricting years back put
> > more McLean and Vienna kids into their
> boundaries.
> > Additionally, the demographics of the entire
> > Tysons area have changed considerably over the
> > years. There are very expensive single family
> > homes, and townhomes in the boundaries although
> > there is still some lower end housing.
> >
> > With redistricting, a larger student body, a
> > populace more educated about IB, and time for
> the
> > program to mature as it has a George Mason,
> > Marshall and elsewhere, South Lakes will have
> an
> > excellent reputation as well.
> >
> > Interesting note, we get quite a few State
> Dept.
> > families in Reston as well. These are very
> > educated people who have lived all over the
> world.
> > Their children attend American and
> International
> > Schools with other highly educated, well to do
> > students. They don't fit the "stereotype" about
> > Restonians, that we're all liberal global
> > citizens. State Dept. people I've met have
> been
> > very Conservativee, Republican with a big R.
> > Maybe they know something?
>
>
> The point is, You DON'T need resticting to do
> this.

Oh, but you do. Some of the comlaints over IB are a result of the strict master schedule. A larger body will allow more flexibility with the schedule. The addition of AP classes will supplement areas that IB doesn't cover.

A newly renovated building has an open 600+ seats while closeby schools are overenrolled or busing children 10 miles away. Regardless of whether or not you like having a 3100 student high school to ensure they can win the state football championship, it is not a reasonable use of taxpayer money to have one school with less than 1200 general ed students while another has 3100. It is not equitable.

Redistricting will happen in this situation and it will happen again in the future at other high schools, Annandale, Mt. Vernon, wherever demographics/enrollment necessitates.

People will complain, it will happen anyway, the kids will move, and over time, everyone will be fine.

In my opinion, I think the school board should ensure that there is lenient grandfathering of siblings, and the addition of AP classes to supplement IB. Both programs equally prepare students for college which is the point of a high school college prep program. And regardless of what Neen says, really the point of going to college is to take college classes. I think all this focus on placing out of college is ridiculous. The AP classes I took were not as rigorous as those I took in college. But hey, maybe Langley sucks at AP.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 02:04PM by Old Timer.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: truthbetold ()
Date: January 07, 2008 01:59PM

FR: Let's talk hypocrisy for a moment. You are posting on another thread that you'd be prepared to break the law to get your kids not to come to South Lakes. You and other people posting on this thread. Go figure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:00PM

SLVerity Wrote:
> Forum Reader,
>
> A lot of people on this thread, including one of
> your strongest advocates, do not consider Marshall
> to be a successful school. Go back and read for
> yourself. How do they judge success?: By its
> relative size to surrounding schools.

Please read my post of January 07, 2008 01:18PM. I am responding to and quoting truthbetold's message of January 07, 2008 12:24PM which begins, "I don't understand why people keep bringing up Marshall, except to demonstrate that it has a very successful IB program?"

If you disagree, please take up your argument with truthbetold.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:03PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR: Let's talk hypocrisy for a moment. You are
> posting on another thread that you'd be prepared
> to break the law to get your kids not to come to
> South Lakes. You and other people posting on this
> thread. Go figure.

Word of honor: This is the ONLY "Fairfax Underground" thread on which I am posting. Is someone impersonating me somewhere? Please provide details.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:25PM

> Marshall used to have a less than stellar
> reputation until a redistricting years back put
> more McLean and Vienna kids into their boundaries.
> Additionally, the demographics of the entire
> Tysons area have changed considerably over the
> years. There are very expensive single family
> homes, and townhomes in the boundaries although
> there is still some lower end housing.
>
> With redistricting, a larger student body, a
> populace more educated about IB, and time for the
> program to mature as it has a George Mason,
> Marshall and elsewhere, South Lakes will have an
> excellent reputation as well.
>
> Interesting note, we get quite a few State Dept.
> families in Reston as well. These are very
> educated people who have lived all over the world.
> Their children attend American and International
> Schools with other highly educated, well to do
> students. They don't fit the "stereotype" about
> Restonians, that we're all liberal global
> citizens. State Dept. people I've met have been
> very Conservativee, Republican with a big R.
> Maybe they know something?

Marshall was redistricted 25 years ago and has never been at capacity. It never worked. Are you suggesting that in another 25 years, after redistricting, South Lakes still won't be at capacity? And compared to the schools around it, its reputation will still be lacking?

When was the last time you saw a real estate ad that said 'Coveted Marshall high school district'? We've all seen those ads for Langley and Madison, never Marshall.

State department is hardly filled with conservatives. How many conservatives do you think major in international studies? But I will agree that IB is probably a better program for students who will be returning to Europe to finish high school and attend college.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:28PM

Old Timer Wrote:
> ... it is not a reasonable use of
> taxpayer money to have one school with less than
> 1200 general ed students while another has 3100.
> It is not equitable.
>
> Redistricting will happen in this situation and it
> will happen again in the future at other high
> schools, Annandale, Mt. Vernon, wherever
> demographics/enrollment necessitates. ...
>
> ... Both programs equally prepare students for college...

So your point is you support this year's concept that the ideal size for FCPS high schools is 2,000? If so, then I will repeat part of my post of January 06, 2008 11:05AM, "With the equivalent of two empty middle schools and two empty high schools in September 2012, FCPS has the space to convert both Chantilly and W[est]field to secondary schools. This conversion will [require] significant boundary changes.... All of which provide reasons not to redistrict South Lakes at this time."

[Please note I am not advocating such action but rather pointing out the "2,000 students" argument means the current West County redistricting proposal should be scrapped and started over.]

Regarding the second paragraph I quoted above, Mt Vernon did NOT receive additional students when adjacent Hayfield became overcrowded. Instead a new South County Secondary School was built and given boundaries that quickly led to severe overcrowding, even though there is plenty of empty space at nearby middle and high schools.

Regarding the third paragraph quoted above, if AP and IB produce equal results, then why not get rid of the programme that costs roughly twice as much as the other?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:30PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > truthbetold Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Marshall, . . . They really love the IB
> > program.
> >
> > Sorry to burst your bubble but I have three
> > nephews at Marshall and most parents at
> Marshall
> > that I talk to spontaneously volunteer that
> they
> > loath IB and want AP back.
>
> Mr. More: If I can be accused of being so
> powerfully persuasive that people do not dare
> argue with me in person about IB, then you can be
> accused of the same thing about your apparent
> loathing (??) of it -- I can imagine that your
> nephews would hate IB given their uncle's
> proclivities. I have very personal involvement
> with Marshall, and I can tell you most parents
> LOVE it. If you hear they don't, you have to ask
> if it's the same way parents LOATHE AP in the
> privacy of their own homes when there are faults
> in teachers or the way it is taught in a
> particular class. Or you have to ask about the
> source -- there are parents in this school system
> who LOATHE public school, teachers, government,
> you name it. They tend to be vocal,
> pissedoffattheworld, and posting here.
>
> The rest of us can see the benefits of both AP and
> IB, and highly value our excellent public school
> system in this county -- all schools being among
> the top in the country and in the entire world. We
> appreciate what we have and simply seek to improve
> it without casting it to the dogs (as some here
> would like to do.)

If IB was that great, it would be at the top schools. It isn't. Parents from Madison would be sending their kids to Marshall in droves. They aren't. The top math students in the Marshall district are desperate to get into to TJ because they know that if they don't they are screwed. Only those wealthy enough to have a parent at home to drive them to Langley or Madison can get the math classes they need.

If our schools are at the top in the nation, that would explain why the US ranks 27th in the world in science and math. Pitiful.

Why can't all parents have a CHOICE in what schools they send their children to? I thought liberals liked CHOICE.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:30PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I bring up Marshall again because last night
> SLVerity posted, "Dear FR, ... Fact: South Lakes
> is the only IB school in Fairfax that does not
> offer any AP classes. Check for yourself. ..."
>
> So I did check for myself and found SLV was again
> in error, that half, four of eight, FCPS IB high
> schools do not offer any AP courses.

Some might say, dear Forum Reader, that you are obsessed with impugning me, but I couldn't possibly comment.

I went back and revisited my data and I did indeed misspeak, but my intent was not to mislead. I should have said that a substantial majority of IB schools in Virginia are offering AP courses, as one can see from the number of AP tests given at IB schools not in Fairfax County (see attached file). I think that ALL IB schools in Fairfax should offer AP courses, and I have been advocating for this at South Lakes all along.

Doubt my data and argue with my viewpoint all you want, but don't ever doubt my integrity.
Attachments:
IBwAP.pdf

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:35PM

Neen, despite your very biased opinion, until very recently, Madison was not touted as a 'coveted' location. I think you are engaging in some rewrites of history. Perceptions change all the time - we don't live in a static area and most people's view aren't static either.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:35PM

>>>if AP and IB produce equal results, then why not get rid of the programme that costs roughly twice as much as the other?<<<<

Excellent point! Isn't FCPS in dire straights financially? A $100 million shortfall? Is there any talk of getting rid of the much more expensive IB? Have they asked parents if they'd rather have increased class sizes in all schools, or the phasing out of IB?

Were parents ever consulted before their schools got IB? As I recall, parents at the schools were not allowed to CHOOSE which program their school got. I wonder why not? Why not let each school CHOOSE their core program? If FCPS MUST have an IB program, why not limit it to one or two schools and allow liberal pupil placement at those schools for those international students who want it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:38PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen, despite your very biased opinion, until very
> recently, Madison was not touted as a 'coveted'
> location. I think you are engaging in some
> rewrites of history. Perceptions change all the
> time - we don't live in a static area and most
> people's view aren't static either.


Oh really? When was that? I've bought real estate in this county since 1976, and Madison was always one of the top 5 schools in FCPS. If you know otherwise, please post the proof.

Marshall was the Vienna school that no one wanted to attend. People in Vienna who were redistricted to Marshall in 1984 fought it vigorously. Many people in that end of Vienna still send their children to private schools rather than Marshall.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:40PM

>>>Doubt my data and argue with my viewpoint all you want, but don't ever doubt my integrity.<<<<

Oops. That ship sailed about 100 pages back. You make up stuff constantly. We all know it, and Forum Reader has posted the proof, repeatedly.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:40PM

IO told you that you have a biased opinion. Don't be so defensive.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:41PM

Deleted, double post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 02:43PM by Neen.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:43PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IO told you that you have a biased opinion. Don't
> be so defensive.

You also said that Madison was not a desired school until recently. Please post the proof of that.

If you continue to make up stuff, out of whole cloth, I will continue to call you on it.

Would you like me to list the consistently top 5 schools? Or would rather just continue to lie about whatever you choose?

I am not defensive, I just don't like liars. And YOU have been proven to be one, over and over. Attacking me doesn't change that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:51PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> I bring up Marshall again because last night
> > SLVerity posted, "Dear FR, ... Fact: South
> Lakes
> > is the only IB school in Fairfax that does not
> > offer any AP classes. Check for yourself. ..."
> >
> > So I did check for myself and found SLV was
> again
> > in error, that half, four of eight, FCPS IB
> high
> > schools do not offer any AP courses.
>
> Some might say, dear Forum Reader, that you are
> obsessed with impugning me, but I couldn't
> possibly comment.
>
> I went back and revisited my data and I did indeed
> misspeak, but my intent was not to mislead. I
> should have said that a substantial majority of IB
> schools in Virginia are offering AP courses, as
> one can see from the number of AP tests given at
> IB schools not in Fairfax County (see attached
> file). I think that ALL IB schools in Fairfax
> should offer AP courses, and I have been
> advocating for this at South Lakes all along.
>
> Doubt my data and argue with my viewpoint all you
> want, but don't ever doubt my integrity.

What does your little chart prove? That more students at South Lakes enrolled in an AP class at some other school than did students at Marshall, Lee, and Mount VErnon? So what?

Since your claim is that you never intend to lie, perhaps you should be more careful in what you post. Perhaps a bit of research first will minimize your continued 'misstatements', or whatever euphemism of the day you are using.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:53PM

Neen, why are two people not allowed to have differing opinions? Does everyone have to agree with you? Is there anything you don't know? Also, why are you stepping in a discussion that I am having with Forum Reader? It is not your business. But you do have that Gladys Cravitz personality, don't you?

You have made many incorrect assertions on this site, and you have been called out on them. You even admitted to at least one. So has Forum Reader, as recently as this weekend. She also showed grace when she realized her error. I notice you did not direct your strange anger at her when she misspoke. Apparently in the world of Neen there is room for mistakes, unless of course you don't agree with her.

BTW, nice job posting on another forum that is encouraging parents to lie and break the law.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 02:55PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:

>
> What does your little chart prove? That more
> students at South Lakes enrolled in an AP class at
> some other school than did students at Marshall,
> Lee, and Mount VErnon? So what?
>

Again, the file was for Forum Reader, not you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:00PM

To be neutrual, I wouldn't call SLV a liar, but I do find many of things that she stated as a fact is more of a perception than fact.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:12PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be neutrual, I wouldn't call SLV a liar, but I
> do find many of things that she stated as a fact
> is more of a perception than fact.

OH, I get it now, those things she states are simply her OPINION, not fact.

Ok, thanks.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:14PM

I think the people complaining about folks chatting about violating the law are missing a key point. OK, I absolutely concede, no one should be lying to the school system or trying to mislead them to pupil place. It is simply wrong.

But the fact of the matter is that people with some chutzhpah and resources will be able to pupil place, and they won't need to resort to chicanery to do it. I have seen in it happen in two instances - both concerning students placed away from South Lakes. The first case involved a bullying problem (a male student) and when it dragged on with no relief from FCPS, (no racial issue, typical teen bullying) the mother got a part time job in the school system - voila - Oakton here they came. The second involved a female student who was harassed by a couple of poorly behaved young men - and given that there was a racial element to it - the parents retained a lawyer - and received instantaneous pupil placement to Oakton (again). The school system did not want to touch the latter case with a 10 foot pole - enough said - we all know exactly why. And it got her brother pupil placed too.

And this only scratches the surface - when it comes to parents and schools - I have learned never to underestimate parents and the lengths they will go to serve their kids - even when it may not appear rational to some. This is why I don't understand why the School Board engaged in such a flawed process - and why, at least from appearances sake, those affiliated with South Lakes are exulting in it. The bottom line is about results, and if South Lakes attracts only an additional 100 students from this mess, no one benefits - and South Lakes is no better off but having managed to alienate so many their options will really be limited. Please, I am not forecasting or hoping doom on anyone, but the most helpful definition of being welcoming is aligning the school to have the best possible resources at hand to be competitive and vibrant - meaning as if the school had no district boundaries and had to compete for students on their own. One might ask whether the relevant parents and supporters believe they have truly met this test. There are limits to administrative fiats - they may work with disinterested populations or those lacking political recourse, but they don't succeed with motivated middle to upper middle class people.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:15PM

Question:
Out of the highest ranking countries (top ten, let's say) in terms of educational quality, how many of them are mostly or exclusively IB program based?

I'll try to find out, too. Might be interesting to discover the truth on that.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:15PM

SLVerity,

Do NOT EVER call my home phone again. I do not want other people in my home, including my child, involved with such pettiness. If you continue to place calls to my phone, I will be forced to block your number and report you.

Thank you. I am sure that you understand why I do NOT want this spilling over onto my family and why I must protect them from that. I am sure that you would feel the same about your family. But then I would never call your home.

Have you South Lakes people NO boundaries?!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 03:16PM by Neen.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: FES MOM ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:15PM

Question:

How FCPS handle that $100M shortfall? Are they going to raise our property tax?

Anybody wants to pay more property tax and happy for that? Sorry, I am not happy!

Any comments? suggestion? How we can stop them raise our tax???

Thanks!


Neen Wrote:

>Excellent point! Isn't FCPS in dire straights financially? A $100 million shortfall? Is there any talk of getting rid of the much more expensive IB? Have they asked parents if they'd rather have increased class sizes in all schools, or the phasing out of IB?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:20PM

FES MOM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question:
>
> How FCPS handle that $100M shortfall? Are they
> going to raise our property tax?
>
> Anybody wants to pay more property tax and happy
> for that? Sorry, I am not happy!
>
> Any comments? suggestion? How we can stop them
> raise our tax???
>
> Thanks!
>
>

Yes, the board of supervisors is hoping to raise taxes this year since they were unable to last year because of their elections. It's rather too late to prevent it since we just elected 10 democrats to the board. But it wouldn't hurt to let the board of supervisors know how you feel about the misuse of school funds, redistricting, AND any tax rate increase. Tell your own supervisors and Gerry Connelly. Speak at their public meetings and hearings.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:27PM

Old Timer,
The county's suddenly found magic number of students for each high school is buried for some 20 years, when population is much less. How do you explain no one raise the 'recommendation' when Westfield is built at 2500 capacity, and expand at 3100 capacity?

If 600 or so empty seats in SLH is a waste of tax payer's money, how about 500-600 empty seats in Westfield? If you add double busing cost and uproots of communities, don't you think leaving things as is is probably better?

It sounds to me many of the SLH issues is related to IB and its relatively high FRM/ESOL students. The fact it has higher FRM/ESOL numbers may be other family can affort to go elsewhere. Thus, if the issue within the school is not addressed, redistricting relatively wealthy neighbourhood will not really improve the school. To simly put, they can flee again in the years or go to private schools. According to the supporters of this redistricting, to really help the 'disadvantage' children, their numbers need to be low. To that extent, shouldn't we consider of redistricting them to better performing schools?

I do see an urgency of RD this year, for the sake of justifying the Langley expansion. I am yet to see how they can hide the WFH and SLH expansion under the table. It's a shame when politicians put eyes on innocent families for their agenda.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:28PM

Thank you Floris. I have always tried to correct any data given that was later questioned, as I did today, and have no reason to be ashamed of anything I have said. I would wager that an overwhelming majority of posts here are based on perception, even those backed up with data. For every piece of data presented, there will be another one to refute it. Such is life. In the long run, how much of this will matter, I would wager not a lot. My children are enrolled at the same university that Neen's son attended, so in the long run, coming from two different schools with two different approaches and two different curricula, they achieved a similar outcome. Now, success is up to them.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:43PM

SLVerity Wrote:
> ... Why did you impugn the information provided by
> Westfield dad regarding Richard Montgomery and its
> AP math curriculum ...

SLV,
Do please try to get your facts straight and then verify them before posting. It would make this whole discussion so much easier.

It was APorIBMom, not Westfield Dad, who at January 05, 2008 06:30PM posted an entry that read in part, “According to the school's web site, this IB magnet also substitutes AP Calculus for the IB math courses, then has its IB students take the IB math tests in addition to the AP math tests.”

At January 05, 2008 11:06PM WestfieldDad asked, “If Richard Montgomery gets away with it, how do they do it?”

Then Dad figured it out and clarified the issue for all of us when wrote at January 06, 2008 01:53PM, “On the math topic, the way Richard Montgomery gets around the IB math issue is that they actually offer sufficient IB math to allow the diploma candidates to take IB math, but they end the IB sequence at SL. They don't offer HL. Instead, all IB kids take the SL course to get the required IB math credit, then take AB or BC AP Calculus if they want additional math.”

To which I responded at January 06, 2008 02:56PM, "Thank you. That makes a lot more sense. An earlier poster [January 05, 2008 06:30PM] had stated that 'this IB magnet also substitutes AP Calculus for the IB math courses, then has its IB students take the IB math tests in addition to the AP math tests' but you have more clearly explained that Montgomery students take the IB SL math course AND test and THEN take AP Calculus.”

How could you possibly take this chain of posts to mean I “impugned” information from Westfield dad?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:45PM

Just remember to state it's your opionion not the fact...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: assessingSL ()
Date: January 07, 2008 03:45PM

Your back and forth "conversations" regarding IB vs AP has been fascinating to the point that I have asked a colleague from Montgomery county to assess on them. His response is that IB is complemented with AP classes at both Montgomery and Chevy Chase, but he was steering away from IB and registered his child in an AP-based school. Another colleague from the NIH whose child attended an IB school responded that if he had to do it all over again, he would have never allow his child to take IB....his reasoning? The exhorbitant amount of homework his child had to do, with no life outside school and no extra-curricular actvities. Although kid did very well in school (very high IQ), he would have preferred AP because of the variety of courses offered, and the fact that IB did not apply to his science-oriented kid. In his words, it was a waste of his time. Again, these are the experiences of two people from Montgomery county and I was repeatedly told to choose AP if my own child's forte is in the sciences.

The moral: Is in the eye of the beholder....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 04:26PM

SLVerity Wrote:
> ... why do you accuse me of
> misstating without giving me the benefit of the
> doubt? Make no mistake - misstatement = to state
> wrongly or falsely, so don't try to be coy. I did
> not question your honesty when you presented last
> year's information, but rather asked you to look
> at the most current figures. Is it possible that
> the information I was given was incorrect? Yes.
> My information came from a very reliable source
> and I did not have reason to doubt it. In future,
> if you have evidence to the contrary as you seem
> to, please present it to correct the record but
> refrain from questioning my integrity.
> ... You seem to have a particular interest in
> going over my posts with a fine-tooth comb.

A particular interest in going over your posts? You were the one who posted an alleged, later proven erroneous, "fact," and then challenged me to check it.

On January 05, 2008 at 11:56PM you posted, "Dear FR, ... Fact: South Lakes is the only IB school in Fairfax that does not offer any AP classes. Check for yourself ..."

That appeared to be a challenge [pick another noun if you prefer: order? request? suggestion?] for to me to verify the lack of AP courses in some other FCPS IB schools.

I responded to you just over an hour later at January 06, 2008 01:05AM, writing:
"I am not able at midnight on a Saturday night to call each school and ask what they are teaching this year, but I am sure you are eager to share your results with us. In the meantime I went to [www.fcps.edu] then clicked on "list of AP classes." That gave me a chart of "Fairfax County Public Schools AP COURSES OFFERED 2006-­07." [Please advise if you found a similar chart for this school year.]
FCPS IB high schools and the AP courses listed for each:
Annandale - English Lit, Government, Statistics
Edison - NONE LISTED
Lee - Statistics
Marshall - NONE LISTED
Mt Vernon - NONE LISTED
Robinson - AB Calc, Comp Sci A, Eng Lit, Gov't, Stat, US History
South Lakes - NONE LISTED
Stuart - Government
So a quick online fact check indicates that last year four of eight IB high schools offered no IB courses, none of them offered any AP science, and only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and not BC Calculus."

----
In your response, instead of citing your source so that we could logically attempt to resolve our differences in data, at January 06, 2008 09:32AM you "asked" [challenged? impugned?], "Why are you looking at last year? We are talking about the here and now."

Thus this morning I made the effort to call several schools to obtain current information. From what they told me, you had posted an erroneous statement. [misspoke? made a mistake? Notice I avoid the word "lie," which would imply an intentional effort to deceive.]

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 04:28PM

Forum Reader, give it a rest. You are creating distractions of your own because you left out a significant part of the sequence (posted for your edification below) in which you quoted from the IBO the following statement:

> The IBO does not permit students to take an IBO
> test without completing the related IBO course.

Were you not impugning (i.e., casting doubt upon) the information given by quoting the IBO? And did I not credit you with accepting the information provided by AP or IB Mom and clarified by Westfield Dad later, as I did earlier today? Are you not making the discussion more difficult be leaving out a key portion of the dialog?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > APorIBMom Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Dear SL Verity,
> > >
> > Richard
> > Montgomery HS in Rockville substitutes AP
> > Calculus
> > > for the IB math courses, then has its IB
> > students
> > > take the IB math tests in addition to the AP
> > math
> > > tests.
> > >
> >
> > I've finally heard a really good suggestion on
> > sorting out the IB/AP mess, and it only took
> > Marylanders (who are far from conservative...)
> to
> > figure it out. Substitution of AP Calc
> recognizes
> > the fact that the IB math curriculum is simply
> so
> > far from alignment with US colleges to make it
> > senseless for US math/science types. And, any
> kid
> > who can hack BC Calc (and Linear/Multivariate
> if
> > they follow the current Westfield path for 7th
> > grade algebra kids) can do just fine on the IB
> > math tests.
>
> The IBO does not permit students to take an IBO
> test without completing the related IBO course.
> "ASSESSMENT. The final assessment on the
> performance in two final examinations and a
> portfolio of five pieces of work selected from
> that completed during the course.
> Paper 1 (30%) 2 hours: Twenty compulsory
> short-response questions based on the core part of
> the syllabus.
> Paper 2 (50%) 3 hours: Five compulsory
> extended-response questions based on the core part
> of the syllabus and one extended response question
> on the sets, relations and groups option.
> The portfolio (20%):This is a collection of three
> pieces of worked completed by the student during
> the course which must include at least one of the
> following, a mathematical investigation, extended
> closed problem solving, mathematical modelling and
> mathematical research."
>
> Calculus is only a small part of HL math.
>
> Core (required topics)
> 1. Number and Algebra
> 2. Functions and Equations
> 3. Circular Functions and Trigonometry
> 4. Vector Geometry
> 5. Matrices and Transformations
> 6. Statistics
> 7. Probability
> 8. Calculus
>
> Option
> 9. Statistics
> 10. Sets, Relations and Groups
> 11. Discrete Mathematics
> 12. Analysis and Approximation
> 13. Euclidian Geometry and Conic Sections

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting-Richard Montgomery's IB Math
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: January 07, 2008 04:38PM

Dear Forum Reader,

On January 6 at 4:07 I posted a link to the math sequence at Richard Montgomery, which was different than the math sequence shown in what I assume was the general link for Montgomery County IB that Westfield Dad posted. Here it is again:

http://www.portalcontrol.com/Portals/3e4953d2-72cf-4a97-b551-73409bc678a0/IBgroup5.pdf

According to this document, which I found on the Richard Montgomery HS web site section for IB, the IB magnet in Montgomery County does not teach either SL Math or HL Math. Instead, it lets kids take the SL Math test after either Calc AB or Calc BC, and it lets kids take the HL Math test after the post-AP math class. The most mathematically advanced students can then take an independent math study course the year after that, if they took AP Calc BC in 10th grade.


Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > ... Why did you impugn the information provided
> by
> > Westfield dad regarding Richard Montgomery and
> its
> > AP math curriculum ...
>
> SLV,
> Do please try to get your facts straight and then
> verify them before posting. It would make this
> whole discussion so much easier.
>
> It was APorIBMom, not Westfield Dad, who at
> January 05, 2008 06:30PM posted an entry that read
> in part, “According to the school's web site, this
> IB magnet also substitutes AP Calculus for the IB
> math courses, then has its IB students take the IB
> math tests in addition to the AP math tests.”
>
> At January 05, 2008 11:06PM WestfieldDad asked,
> “If Richard Montgomery gets away with it, how do
> they do it?”
>
> Then Dad figured it out and clarified the issue
> for all of us when wrote at January 06, 2008
> 01:53PM, “On the math topic, the way Richard
> Montgomery gets around the IB math issue is that
> they actually offer sufficient IB math to allow
> the diploma candidates to take IB math, but they
> end the IB sequence at SL. They don't offer HL.
> Instead, all IB kids take the SL course to get the
> required IB math credit, then take AB or BC AP
> Calculus if they want additional math.”
>
> To which I responded at January 06, 2008 02:56PM,
> "Thank you. That makes a lot more sense. An
> earlier poster had stated that 'this IB magnet
> also substitutes AP Calculus for the IB math
> courses, then has its IB students take the IB math
> tests in addition to the AP math tests' but you
> have more clearly explained that Montgomery
> students take the IB SL math course AND test and
> THEN take AP Calculus.”

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 04:39PM

Forum Reader:

Haven't we already gone over this and didn't I correct the record earlier today and then post the file that I intended to reference? Please try to show some grace. There is no need to beat a dead horse. Play with semantics all you like, but I don't think you would like it if someone accused you of misstating.

mis·state /mɪsˈsteɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mis-steyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -stat·ed, -stat·ing.
to state wrongly or misleadingly

As I said before, in future, if you have conflicting data, please present it without accusing the poster of misstating or misleading or any other clever word you want to use. I have already indicated that I misspoke, and corrected the record. What else do you want? Shall I be placed in the stocks, or subject myself to more lashings from you? Would you like my firstborn? What do you want?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: truthbetold ()
Date: January 07, 2008 04:55PM

Berdhuis: Try Wikipedia for a good explanation of IB and its standing in the world. The information is cited, so you can go to the source. Note that Cambridge and Oxford, perhaps the gold standards of non-US education, fully accept IB credit. If you go to the IBO site, you'll see that US is taking the lead in implementing IB programs. The Wikipedia cite notes the reason IB seems to be implemented at disadvantaged schools -- which is being misused by people who want to believe IB is inferior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Baccalaureate

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 04:55PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just remember to state it's your opionion not the
> fact...

Hey, SLV, can we agree to this? If you have a fact, cite your source. Otherwise label thoughts as opinions, suggestions, ideas, whatever?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:03PM

SLVerity Wrote:
> I asked you a direct question about your level of
> intimacy with current knowledge about IB ... I asked you directly
> if you or your children have ever been involved in
> an IB program. ...

-------
Neen Wrote:
> SLVerity,
> Do NOT EVER call my home phone again. I do not
> want other people in my home, including my child,
> involved with such pettiness. If you continue to
> place calls to my phone, I will be forced to block
> your number and report you.

--------
SLV,
I do not know if you, or anyone else, has been calling Neen's home phone, but since I do not wish to be the target of any potential similar invasion of privacy, I must decline to provide any additional personal information on this forum. To her credit, another South Lakes parent, Maria Allen, did step up to the plate and fully identify herself. You are welcome to do so if you wish; I do not.

I will continue to site my sources and the reader can decide how current they are.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: truthbetold ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:10PM

"Do NOT EVER call my home phone again.....Have you South Lakes people NO boundaries?!"

My friend (a SL supporter) whose name and email was published here, received more than 30 emails and the same number of phone calls in a period of two or three days because of people posting it here and telling posters basically to harass her. Whose boundaries are you talking about?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:26PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you Floris. I have always tried to correct
> any data given that was later questioned, as I did
> today, and have no reason to be ashamed of
> anything I have said. I would wager that an
> overwhelming majority of posts here are based on
> perception, even those backed up with data. For
> every piece of data presented, there will be
> another one to refute it. Such is life. In the
> long run, how much of this will matter, I would
> wager not a lot. My children are enrolled at the
> same university that Neen's son attended, so in
> the long run, coming from two different schools
> with two different approaches and two different
> curricula, they achieved a similar outcome. Now,
> success is up to them.

One slight difference might be that my son was able to get THREE engineering majors in three years, because of his excellent AP math and science background that gave him 39 AP credits when he began The University. Oh yeh, he also a full merit scholarship. That might be another slight difference. For some families, than amount of money makes a difference.

You might want to ask Forum Reader how many AP credits her daughter got at her AP high school and how many credits the average IB student has when they begin college. Or perhaps you could share that information with us.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:27PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Do NOT EVER call my home phone again.....Have you
> South Lakes people NO boundaries?!"
>
> My friend (a SL supporter) whose name and email
> was published here, received more than 30 emails
> and the same number of phone calls in a period of
> two or three days because of people posting it
> here and telling posters basically to harass her.
> Whose boundaries are you talking about?

Your friend published her email address here? Why would she do that?

Funny, she never mentioned the harassment here. Makes you wanna go ummmmmm......

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:29PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truthbetold Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Do NOT EVER call my home phone again.....Have
> you
> > South Lakes people NO boundaries?!"
> >
> > My friend (a SL supporter) whose name and email
> > was published here, received more than 30
> emails
> > and the same number of phone calls in a period
> of
> > two or three days because of people posting it
> > here and telling posters basically to harass
> her.
> > Whose boundaries are you talking about?

Can you tell us when that happened? The only personal information that I have seen here has been mine and Thomas More's. Obviously those were posted by South Lakes posters, hoping to squelch free speech.

I assume caller ID told her exactly who called her and they have been reported to the police.

Funny, she never mentioned any of that harassment here, or at the South Lakes private forum. I would have thought that would be worth mentioning.

Makes you wanna go, Ummmmm................



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 05:35PM by Neen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Padre ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:31PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > truthbetold Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > "Do NOT EVER call my home phone
> again.....Have
> > you
> > > South Lakes people NO boundaries?!"
> > >
> > > My friend (a SL supporter) whose name and
> email
> > > was published here, received more than 30
> > emails
> > > and the same number of phone calls in a
> period
> > of
> > > two or three days because of people posting
> it
> > > here and telling posters basically to harass
> > her.
> > > Whose boundaries are you talking about?
> >
> > Your friend published her email address here?
> Why
> > would she do that? I assume caller ID told her
> exactly who called her and they have been reported
> to the police.
> >
> > Funny, she never mentioned any of that here, or
> on the private South Lakes forum.
>
> > Makes you wanna go ummmmmm......


Makes you realize that she has some class....enough whining goes on this thread. In fact, that's the principal currency.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Padre ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:33PM

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > truthbetold Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > "Do NOT EVER call my home phone
> > again.....Have
> > > you
> > > > South Lakes people NO boundaries?!"
> > > >
> > > > My friend (a SL supporter) whose name and
> > email
> > > > was published here, received more than 30
> > > emails
> > > > and the same number of phone calls in a
> > period
> > > of
> > > > two or three days because of people posting
> > it
> > > > here and telling posters basically to
> harass
> > > her.
> > > > Whose boundaries are you talking about?
> > >
> > > Your friend published her email address here?
>
> > Why
> > > would she do that? I assume caller ID told
> her
> > exactly who called her and they have been
> reported
> > to the police.
> > >
> > > Funny, she never mentioned any of that here,
> or
> > on the private South Lakes forum.
> >
> > > Makes you wanna go ummmmmm......
>
>
> Makes you realize that she has some
> class....enough whining goes on this thread. In
> fact, that's the principal currency.



And -- to underscore what you already know -- she didn't publish her email....some wise guy did.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:33PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis: Try Wikipedia for a good explanation of
> IB and its standing in the world.

truthbetold,
Thanks for the link. I actually went straight to the horse's mouth and discovered that in terms of raw numbers, the US, Canada and Australia have the most schools using the IB program.

I looked at UNESCO data on world ranking for educational quality, and discovered Finland, Korea, Singapore, Canada, Australia, Belgium, Netherlands, Japan, Hong Kong in the top 9. Finland was ranked #1, and according to the IBO website, had 15 schools using IBO.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: January 07, 2008 05:38PM

A binary paradigm makes no sense here when it comes to AP and IB. Both programs can be exceedingly rigorous and helpful, although since AP is by design digestible in smaller bits the rigor can vary extensively. The issue is whether the IB program is as good fit as the AP for the projected 600 students (advantaged) that SLHS desires. My guess is that it is as not, since the quintessential, if there is such a thing, prospective studet is the Virginia Tech/JMU matriculant that would often find the AP program a far better fit, especially given the volume of reading required for a full blown IB diploma and the cost/benefit tradeoffs that such quintessential students typically make. This does not mean the IB program is "bad", or that in some respects, it may even provide a better perspective for those that complete it, but rather that it doesn't fit the bulk of the prospective students' needs and desires as well. And there is (I surmise) a reason that it has been offered at the "lower" performing high schools in the County - the IB program is to some degree an attractant for promising students because like it or not, the IB program is clearly rigorous, and the full diploma has gold standard credentials as being a significant and non-trivial achievement, something that apprehensive students at lower performing schools find comforting inasmuch as they won't be subsumed in the same classes as those engaged in marginal or less than college prep courses. Again, this doesn't make IB "bad" or "good" - but it does explain the realities appurtenant to the program. To this end, the best arguments for IB ought to centered on how it is a great fit for the prospective students as opposed to an abstract it is great perspective. Any takers for this line of inquiry?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 07, 2008 06:09PM

A few parents say they wish their kids had done AP. A few others say they wish their kids had done IB because AP waters things down. Let's get them together in Athens to gladiate it out. Grass is always greener in Greece during the rainy season.

I have a suspicion all of this "success" or "loathing" depends entirely on the kid him or herself and/or whether they have pushy/neurotic parents. Friends in NY have kids who are taking a boatload of AP classes and who have absolutely no life and despise school. TJ kids have two to five hours of homework a night -- all depending on whether they want a 4.5 GPA or a 3.7 GPA or a 3.2 GPA or do sports, etc. The AP courses there are supposed to be regular old AP courses like any other (unless, of course, you want to argue that TJ AP courses meet some kind of higher standard? What does that say about AP standards?)

If your kid struggles in college or becomes indecisive or any number of other parent-deems-not-successful-stages, then you are likely to search for culprits, and why not pick on AP or IB or the fact that your kid did/didn't get into GT or had too many friends who smoked pot or who were suicidally overachieving? Certainly not the way you parented!! Or the nature of your individual, unique child!!

My IB son had an average of two to three hours of homework a night -- except when he procrastinated, and then it was allnighters, along with his PVI and Herndon and Oakton buddies, and they IMed each other in sympathy. He struggled with the writing in 9th grade and then was writing easily, liquidly, and quickly in 12th. He is majoring in Physics (theoretical, or quantum if you will), having taken IB, and was ahead of his BC Calculus classmates. Minoring in philosophy. The latter, in my jaded view, being the most useful of all academic courses in the long run.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 07, 2008 06:10PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I
> should have said that a substantial majority of IB
> schools in Virginia are offering AP courses, as
> one can see from the number of AP tests given at
> IB schools not in Fairfax County (see attached
> file).

Verity - It's my understanding that anyone can take an AP test. There's no requirement that the test takers must have taken the AP course. So, IB kids could have taken those AP tests.

An aside - I took the AP English test when I was a kid without taking an AP English class. My HS English department didn't want to be limited by the AP Curriculum so "only" offered Honors. The department felt that AP wasn't rigorous enough for their kids...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 06:21PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A binary paradigm makes no sense here when it
> comes to AP and IB. Both programs can be
> exceedingly rigorous and helpful, although since
> AP is by design digestible in smaller bits the
> rigor can vary extensively. The issue is whether
> the IB program is as good fit as the AP for the
> projected 600 students (advantaged) that SLHS
> desires. My guess is that it is as not, since the
> quintessential, if there is such a thing,
> prospective studet is the Virginia Tech/JMU
> matriculant that would often find the AP program a
> far better fit, especially given the volume of
> reading required for a full blown IB diploma and
> the cost/benefit tradeoffs that such
> quintessential students typically make. This does
> not mean the IB program is "bad", or that in some
> respects, it may even provide a better perspective
> for those that complete it, but rather that it
> doesn't fit the bulk of the prospective students'
> needs and desires as well. And there is (I
> surmise) a reason that it has been offered at the
> "lower" performing high schools in the County -
> the IB program is to some degree an attractant for
> promising students because like it or not, the IB
> program is clearly rigorous, and the full diploma
> has gold standard credentials as being a
> significant and non-trivial achievement, something
> that apprehensive students at lower performing
> schools find comforting inasmuch as they won't be
> subsumed in the same classes as those engaged in
> marginal or less than college prep courses.
> Again, this doesn't make IB "bad" or "good" - but
> it does explain the realities appurtenant to the
> program. To this end, the best arguments for IB
> ought to centered on how it is a great fit for the
> prospective students as opposed to an abstract it
> is great perspective. Any takers for this line of
> inquiry?

-----------
A fair and reasonable question - how nice!

In my opinion IB is ideal for above average students who will be full IB Diploma Candidates; who are strong in the humanities and especially in foreign language; and who plan to further their education in a school overseas or study international something or other.

In FCPS about seven percent of students in IB schools earn the full IB Diploma.

In my opinion the other 93% of students would be better served in other than an IB school. The International Baccalaureate Organization states, “it must be made very clear that the programme does have a major role to play in the school and that the intrinsic values espoused by the IB DP are relevant to the whole school, are firmly embraced by the published school mission statement (or equivalent) and will have an influential role in any sections of the school that do not have an IB programme. Another condition that is very closely allied to this is that all schools must be unequivocally committed to teaching the full DP and must recognize that certificate courses have secondary importance (in the past this was not always the case, especially in North America). … [parenthetical statement is included in the text] Without a doubt, the all-important reason for teaching the IB is the DP and the benefits that are to be derived from it by diploma students. … It must be unquestionably shown that any certificate courses they may be intending to offer are subordinate to their DP, and will be specifically for students who are not intellectually or academically able to undertake the full diploma. [Goodban, John. “Quality assurance and maintenance of the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme.” (Chapter 2 of “Implementing the IB Diploma Programme: A practical manual for principals, IB coordinators, heads of department and teachers.” Cambridge: University Press. 2004. p. 17.]

Regarding minority students, as others have noted, it is hard to get current data, but of 2,307 Black students attending FCPS IB high schools in 02-03, only TWO Black students in the entire County passed IB High Level math and only SEVEN Black students passed an IB High Level science exam. (In the same year, of 2,685 Black students in AP schools, 64 AP math or science exams were passed by Black students.) Of 2,968 Hispanic students attending FCPS IB high schools in 03-04, only ONE Hispanic student in the entire County passed the IB High Level math exam and only FIVE Hispanic students passed a High Level science exam. (In the same year, of 3,322 Hispanic students in AP schools, 100 AP math or science exams were passed by Hispanic students.) These figures are all the more startling because Bernadette Glaze, “Coordinator for Advanced Academic Programmes, Fairfax County (Virginia) Public Schools” and a strong advocate of the IB “programme” is quoted by name in IBO documentation as proclaiming, “Student enrollment and achievement in IB courses at our most diverse schools show that high expectations lead to high performance. The IB programme teaches our students that being smart is not a matter of heredity, but of motivation and hard work” [“Overview of IB in the United States.” International Baccalaureate Organization. 2004. p. 6].

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 07, 2008 06:21PM

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Old Timer,
> The county's suddenly found magic number of
> students for each high school is buried for some
> 20 years, when population is much less. How do you
> explain no one raise the 'recommendation' when
> Westfield is built at 2500 capacity, and expand at
> 3100 capacity?
>

And, when they rediscovered the magic number, the Westfield addition wasn't even completed.

>
> If 600 or so empty seats in SLH is a waste of tax
> payer's money, how about 500-600 empty seats in
> Westfield? If you add double busing cost and
> uproots of communities, don't you think leaving
> things as is is probably better?
>

At Westfield they are simply moving around empty seats. At Chantilly they can at least claim they plan to close the modular.

>
> According to the supporters of this
> redistricting, to really help the 'disadvantage'
> children, their numbers need to be low. To that
> extent, shouldn't we consider of redistricting
> them to better performing schools?

To do this, they'd have to create an island in the middle of South Lakes. The highest FRL is concentrated along the Toll Road on the south side from Fairfax County Parkway to about Wheile, far from any other HS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 07, 2008 06:38PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
> It's my understanding that anyone can
> take an AP test. There's no requirement that the
> test takers must have taken the AP course. So, IB
> kids could have taken those AP tests.
>
True, but few IB courses truly prepare students for AP exams.

Here is an eight-year old memo from Nancy Sprague, then FCPS Asst Sup for Instruction (or some such title) to the then-Woodson principal and the then-Cluster 3 Director. It was written to aid the Woodson committee reviewing the IB-AP issue. More current information would be helpful if anyone can post it in total with source cited:
“November 19, 1999

TO: Robert Elliott
Michael Glascoe

FROM: Nancy Sprague

SUBJECT: COMBINING IB AND AP COURSES

Instructional Services has consulted with other IB schools which offer AP courses and analyzed the content of the relevant exams. In addition to the possibility of offering nitch AP courses, the following summarizes where AP and IB curricula could be combined so a student could take the IB and/or AP exam. It is important to point out that whenever a course is both an AP/IB course, the teacher has to be trained in both curricula and know both exams. If the school is an IB diploma school, then priority must be given to teaching the IB course of study.

English: Students taking HL English can take the AP exam at the end of their senior year. The teacher would need to help interested students with the difference in test format, but students would have excellent preparation for AP English.

Modern Languages: Students could sit for the IB and AP language exams at the end of their senior year. As with English, students would need practice with the format of the two tests since the format is significantly different. However, students in an IB HL modern language would not be prepared for the AP foreign language literature exam.

Sciences: HL Biology can prepare students for the AP Biology exam if the teacher is familiar with both programs and uses the AP labs in the IB program. HL Physics can prepare students for the AP Physics B exam, but it, too, requires a familiarity with both programs. Chemistry is not a match.

Math: Students could take a Math Methods 2/Calculus AB course which would prepare them for both exams if students have practice with the different test formats. If BC Calculus is emphasized as part of HL Math 2, students could take both the HL Math and the BC Calculus exams.

Computer Science: Students who take IB Computer Science HL are prepared to take the AP Computer Science exam if the teachers include knowledge of the appropriate case study. There will be a case study used in IB different from the one used in AP. Up to now, there has been no case study in IB. Students who take the IB Computer Science SL are prepared to take the A level AP Computer Science exam, but again only of they have knowledge of the appropriate case study. Most of our IB students are taking the SL Computer Science course, not the HL.

Social Studies: Students could take the AP US History exam at the end of their senior year along with the IB HL History exam. AP Government could be offered as the pre-IB Government course to sophomores; however, it would be very important to teach comparative government as part of the course so students would be better prepared for the IB HL History program.”

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: pointless ()
Date: January 07, 2008 07:20PM

Dont be fooled for a minute that the Stu Gibson or the school board is doing this for the good of students by analyzing IP, IB or other course offering. There is only one aim for Stu - how to best benefit politically - and what ever is the best redistricting plan that alligns with his political ambitions, is what fairfax county will get. Nothing to do with academics or students...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 07, 2008 07:39PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, this doesn't make IB "bad" or "good" - but
> it does explain the realities appurtenant to the
> program. To this end, the best arguments for IB
> ought to centered on how it is a great fit for the
> prospective students as opposed to an abstract it
> is great perspective. Any takers for this line of
> inquiry?

It could be that there is a popular sentiment that we as a society need to produce more "digital" widget makers, and so focus on science and math. I will generalize two groups of students here: widget makers and thinkers. I've observed in this forum that most are more comfortable giving their children an education that will allow them to more readily become widget makers, thus an explanation for a preference for AP. Few here have posted a preference for IB - I am one of those (not to be confused with a preference for redistricting) - not that IB is superior, but offers a focused strength towards other useful skills: critical thinking, writing, foreign languages, international perspective. We do need thoughtful politicians, diplomats, writers, artists, and clergy, among others.

So what kind of student does Fairfax County want to generate? Maybe it wants to develop both kinds of students. I suspect that it sees great potential for IB, and not unwarranted. When I went to the IB/AP meeting at SL last month, many pointed questions concerning IB from the attendees pertained to the fear of losing an advantage of matriculating into a handful of universities, or specific departments. Those mentioned were science and engineering oriented: Cornell University Department of Engineering, Naval Academy, Virginia Tech, etc.

No one who I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, expressed a fear of losing an advantage for their child to become a writer, diplomat, educator, artist, actor, etc. I suspect that there is roughly an equal number of students who would thrive in a humanities oriented curriculum, and so propose that IB would be an excellent fit, quantum, for prospective students in Fairfax County. I believe, however, that they are in many cases thwarted by their parents.

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Re: high school redistricting-Richard Montgomery's IB Math
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 07, 2008 07:46PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Forum Reader,
>
> On January 6 at 4:07 I posted a link to the math
> sequence at Richard Montgomery, which was
> different than the math sequence shown in what I
> assume was the general link for Montgomery County
> IB that Westfield Dad posted. Here it is again:
>
> http://www.portalcontrol.com/Portals/3e4953d2-72cf
> -4a97-b551-73409bc678a0/IBgroup5.pdf
>
> According to this document, which I found on the
> Richard Montgomery HS web site section for IB, the
> IB magnet in Montgomery County does not teach
> either SL Math or HL Math. Instead, it lets kids
> take the SL Math test after either Calc AB or Calc
> BC, and it lets kids take the HL Math test after
> the post-AP math class. The most mathematically
> advanced students can then take an independent
> math study course the year after that, if they
> took AP Calc BC in 10th grade.
>
APorIBMom -

I found my docs on Richard Montgomery's math site. They teach something called "IB PreCalc" and take the SL test after that.

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/departments/math/CoursesIBMath.pdf
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/departments/math/CoursesMath.pdf

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 07, 2008 07:56PM

I think we need to focus on IB courses themselves and not on the IB diploma. AP used to have a diploma and withdrew it for kids attending US universities. So there is no comparison. The real comparison is between IB courses and AP courses individually, (though IB has the advantage of having teachers work together among different courses so they are not siloed).

The Sprague memo, in my view, offers good evidence that the IB program is not only compatible, but has added value. You can take AP exams in most IB areas with little extra effort, but you can't take IB exams without having taken the course -- the way courses are taught emphasize comparative analysis, synthesis, and dialectics. The PROCESS of reasoning and thinking and the scientific method is key and that is what is tested.

There are key differences in math and science -- yes -- because these are two-year courses. However, AP is the same way. You can't take an AP Chem class without taking regular Chem first -- nor an AP Calc class without precalc -- though some schools let you (at least in other states) and I would really question the rigor of the AP program when that happens. If kids do "jump" like this, then I would further argue that these are exceptional students and outliers in the argument at hand. IB has the same. My own boy might be considered one of them, in fact (I brought him up because it proves the point that you can take IB and still get great grades on College Board exams. He took Algebra in 7th, Geometry in 8th, and pre-IB Math in 9th grade.)

I also support everything Berdhuis has said about IB.

So if any discussion about AP vs IB is done, diplomas should be left out of it. It's an aspirational goal that should be encouraged and that sets it apart from AP, but it isn't a fair comparison.

None of this is to say that we should create a "magnet IB school" out of South Lakes. That would be very unfair to the school and relegate it to "separate but equal" status -- and we all know how that turned out. The IB program should be allowed to mature there and become its very best. Kids do not suffer for it -- and I'd argue they truly benefit. SLHS should have the same courses available as other schools, and kids should not be shut out of available courses at higher rates than they are at other schools -- which can only happen when it has a population of kids that can support it.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:00PM

And by SL "having the same courses" I mean equivalent courses. Please don't jump on the "then get rid of it and install AP" hayride. AP is not the be-all and end-all of high school education. (Like an earlier poster on the College Board, I sometimes wonder if these parents have stock in the College Board publishing houses?)

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:11PM

Forum Reader Wrote:

>
> Regarding minority students, as others have noted,...

The problem with your statistics is that, as we all know, the SB only put the IB curriculum in the highest needs HSes. So, you can't tell whether difference in the Black/Hispanic results are from socioeconomics or curricula.

Strictly considering curricula, I do believe there are two factors -

1) As people have discussed, the limits on number of HL classes does cut down the potential number of exams per student.
2) Because of alignment problems between the regular and IB curricula at IB schools, it's harder for students to take a upper level courses in their best subjects.

A pure hypothetical - is the importance IBO places on the complete Diploma leading the math/science types - especially the ESLers - to decide not take the IB math/science courses since they are expected to also do well in humanities?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen's Conscience ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:35PM

Please feel free to read the following post and judge for yourselves who has crossed boundaries with regards to posters and their children:


Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen (IP Logged)
Date: December 24, 2007 12:51AM

>>>and why would you think I am a woman but for your behind the scenes gossiping with your online pal.<<<

Huh? I have NO clue what you are talking about. Everyone knows you are a woman, don't they? Why would it matter?

BTW, no one had to tell me who you are. In FACT, I figured it out long before anyone else did. You left quite a trail of bread crumbs.

Oh, you might want to ask your friend Clarifer why she's claiming that her son is an engineering student in math classes with other engineering students, making her an expert on AP BC calculus when her son is NOT enrolled in the engineer school and never took BC calculus. He took the easier calculus, the one non math and non engineering students take at TJ, only because they have to take calculus to graduate with a TJ diploma. Clarifer should not use her son as an example of math kid, or an engineering student, as he is neither. She shouldn't claim to know what happens in math classes in the engineering school since her son is not in the engineering school. (I am sure you know how to verify that for yourself.) She is yet another example of the fine example set by South Lakes parents, claiming to be what she is not, and lying about her knowledge of math courses for engineers in an attempt to 'prove' that IB is better than AP. Sheeze.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2007 12:57AM by Neen.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen's Conscience ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:38PM

Now read Neen's defense of the above post and judge for yourselves:

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think it's rather creepy to lie about one's
> children to prove a non existent point. That's
> what she did. She wanted to say that IB math is
> better than AP math and she lied about her son to
> do it. If that isn't creepy, I don't know what is
> creepy.
>
> People who will lie about their own child, just to
> 'prove' their point, are not to be trusted. They
> have no boundaries and no scruples. If they will
> use their own child in their lies, they'll do
> anything. And for what? To prove that pupil
> placing her child in an inferior school was really
> a good idea? And the only way to prove that is to
> lie about her other child?
>
> Converts are always the worst. They REALLY hate
> to be wrong. I suppose that justifies the lie, in
> her mind.
>
> Whatever. You asked why I put down the PTSA
> groupies? Now you know. Just one example, among
> many.
>
> If you all really want parents to send their kids
> to South Lakes, as you claim, you (the collective
> you) might want to review your tactics. Although
> you personally are far from the worst of them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: truthbetold ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:41PM

Yeah, that was spooky. Clarifier told me about this post from "Neen" and was wondering whether "Neen" was using her clout as a GT board member and UVA parent to get to her son's records. The same "Neen" who was ready to skewer Gibson for talking about another person's son. She was told who "Neen" was and was getting ready to call the authorities. Except that "Neen" got some key things wrong, so she was talking out of her arsemagargle.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:44PM

Are we bored yet with this catfight? I am. zzzzzzzzzz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 09:00PM by Berdhuis.
Attachments:
catfight.jpg

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 07, 2008 08:58PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we need to focus on IB courses themselves
> and not on the IB diploma. AP used to have a
> diploma and withdrew it for kids attending US
> universities. So there is no comparison.

That's not quite what happened -

http://www.fcps.edu/woodsonhs/guidance/academics/ai_ap.htm

The College Board, sponsor of the Advanced Placement Examinations, developed a recognition named the "Advanced Placement Diploma." This diploma was piloted in a limited number of school districts, including Fairfax, in the United States for the classes of 2000, through 2005. Students who earned qualifying scores in the requisite number of Advanced Placement examinations received this diploma. When the College Board decided not to go forward with the AP Diploma program many of the schools involved with the pilot project worked with College Board to develop an AP Diploma to be offered by their school districts. Fairfax County, with the approval of the College Board, developed criteria similar to that used in the pilot program and began offering the Fairfax County AP Diploma to the class of 2006. This diploma is not a replacement for, nor an alternative to, the standard Commonwealth of Virginia Diploma.


>
> The Sprague memo, in my view, offers good evidence
> that the IB program is not only compatible, but
> has added value. You can take AP exams in most IB
> areas with little extra effort, but you can't take
> IB exams without having taken the course -- the
> way courses are taught emphasize comparative
> analysis, synthesis, and dialectics. The PROCESS
> of reasoning and thinking and the scientific
> method is key and that is what is tested.
>

I'd question that a decent AP science class doesn't teach the scientific process.

>
> There are key differences in math and science --
> yes -- because these are two-year courses.
> However, AP is the same way. You can't take an AP
> Chem class without taking regular Chem first --
> nor an AP Calc class without precalc -- though
> some schools let you (at least in other states)
> and I would really question the rigor of the AP
> program when that happens. If kids do "jump" like
> this, then I would further argue that these are
> exceptional students and outliers in the argument
> at hand. IB has the same. My own boy might be
> considered one of them, in fact (I brought him up
> because it proves the point that you can take IB
> and still get great grades on College Board exams.
> He took Algebra in 7th, Geometry in 8th, and
> pre-IB Math in 9th grade.)
>

But as the Sprague memo said, unless the HL math class explicitly overweights calculus, it doesn't cover calculus at a similar level of depth as BC. Also, HL Physics is at the Physics B (non-calculus) level, not the Physics C (calculus-based) level and Chemistry is completely different.


>
> So if any discussion about AP vs IB is done,
> diplomas should be left out of it. It's an
> aspirational goal that should be encouraged and
> that sets it apart from AP, but it isn't a fair
> comparison.

I do wonder whether the IBO's pretty hard stress on that goal leads some kids at the school to not take any IB classes since it's beyond their aspirations.

On the magnet issue, IB should always & only ever have been a magnet program in the US. I do think the program has real value, it probably would have been perfect for me. However, requiring that kids take a non-standard curriculum, no matter how good, by the happenstance of their residence is simply wrong. It's simply not the standard program of studies in the US. The misalignment with the regular HS program makes it difficult for kids can play up/down where it makes sense for them, and the misalignment with the US standard college level curriculum for math/science/engineering types makes for problems when they go on.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:05PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen, why are two people not allowed to have
> differing opinions? Does everyone have to agree
> with you? Is there anything you don't know? Also,
> why are you stepping in a discussion that I am
> having with Forum Reader? It is not your
> business. But you do have that Gladys Cravitz
> personality, don't you?
>
> You have made many incorrect assertions on this
> site, and you have been called out on them. You
> even admitted to at least one. So has Forum
> Reader, as recently as this weekend. She also
> showed grace when she realized her error. I
> notice you did not direct your strange anger at
> her when she misspoke. Apparently in the world of
> Neen there is room for mistakes, unless of course
> you don't agree with her.
>
> BTW, nice job posting on another forum that is
> encouraging parents to lie and break the law.


You are welcome to your opinion. You are not welcome to your facts.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:09PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the magnet issue, IB should always & only ever
> have been a magnet program in the US. I do think
> the program has real value, it probably would have
> been perfect for me. However, requiring that kids
> take a non-standard curriculum, no matter how
> good, by the happenstance of their residence is
> simply wrong. It's simply not the standard
> program of studies in the US. The misalignment
> with the regular HS program makes it difficult for
> kids can play up/down where it makes sense for
> them, and the misalignment with the US standard
> college level curriculum for
> math/science/engineering types makes for problems
> when they go on.

If we wanted to have just one standard curriculum, I would agree with you. But can two standards exist, complementing each other? I say it can be so, and think that it is necessary for our society to have that breadth of education.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:22PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Verity - It's my understanding that anyone can
> take an AP test. There's no requirement that the
> test takers must have taken the AP course. So, IB
> kids could have taken those AP tests.
>

Well, I did not personally call each and every school, and will leave that to more wonkish types here if they want to spend the time, but I did check with my alma mater today (Richmond area) and they do indeed offer AP courses in every test that was given. They indicated that was the case in the other IB schools in their jurisdiction, and also it was their understanding that all of the Richmond area schools offering IB also offered AP. So, I deduce, in my humble opinion - not fact, that is probably the case for the schools where many, many tests are being given. You'll notice that in Fairfax, Robinson is the only school reporting a significant number of AP tests, and they also have AP classes.

Per your last post, I maintain that incoming parents to South Lakes, including those with younger children already in the pyramid, have a lot of clout to make the changes that they want at the school. They also will have a very receptive principal. I think that this debate here has perfectly highlighted the need to continue the discussion, and that it is an important one. I also agree with Berduis that these two programs can coexist in our County.

Thank you for your comments, and particularly your input regarding Montgomery County.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:22PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the people complaining about folks
> chatting about violating the law are missing a key
> point. OK, I absolutely concede, no one should be
> lying to the school system or trying to mislead
> them to pupil place. It is simply wrong.
>
> But the fact of the matter is that people with
> some chutzhpah and resources will be able to pupil
> place, and they won't need to resort to chicanery
> to do it. I have seen in it happen in two
> instances - both concerning students placed away
> from South Lakes. The first case involved a
> bullying problem (a male student) and when it
> dragged on with no relief from FCPS, (no racial
> issue, typical teen bullying) the mother got a
> part time job in the school system - voila -
> Oakton here they came. The second involved a
> female student who was harassed by a couple of
> poorly behaved young men - and given that there
> was a racial element to it - the parents retained
> a lawyer - and received instantaneous pupil
> placement to Oakton (again). The school system
> did not want to touch the latter case with a 10
> foot pole - enough said - we all know exactly why.
> And it got her brother pupil placed too.
>
> And this only scratches the surface - when it
> comes to parents and schools - I have learned
> never to underestimate parents and the lengths
> they will go to serve their kids - even when it
> may not appear rational to some. This is why I
> don't understand why the School Board engaged in
> such a flawed process - and why, at least from
> appearances sake, those affiliated with South
> Lakes are exulting in it. The bottom line is
> about results, and if South Lakes attracts only an
> additional 100 students from this mess, no one
> benefits - and South Lakes is no better off but
> having managed to alienate so many their options
> will really be limited. Please, I am not
> forecasting or hoping doom on anyone, but the most
> helpful definition of being welcoming is aligning
> the school to have the best possible resources at
> hand to be competitive and vibrant - meaning as if
> the school had no district boundaries and had to
> compete for students on their own. One might ask
> whether the relevant parents and supporters
> believe they have truly met this test. There are
> limits to administrative fiats - they may work
> with disinterested populations or those lacking
> political recourse, but they don't succeed with
> motivated middle to upper middle class people.

Well said, as you always are.

Yes, people will use their smarts to get what they want even when the government does its best to restrict their choices. Americans are an enterprising people, where there's a will, there's a way.

So who gets left behind? Those without money and resources. Those who are the most in need of a good education have the fewest opportunities for receiving it. The government prevents them from having the choices that the middle and upper classes have. But this is the last generation that will not have school choice. Soon the poor will have the same options as the rest of the people. School choice is coming and FCPS is helping to speed it along. That's one thing we can say that FCPS is doing right, this redistricting 'plan' being a excellent example. More people than ever in our county are now supporting school choice.

Free the children! Choice forr all!

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:30PM

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, that was spooky. Clarifier told me about
> this post from "Neen" and was wondering whether
> "Neen" was using her clout as a GT board member
> and UVA parent to get to her son's records. The
> same "Neen" who was ready to skewer Gibson for
> talking about another person's son. She was told
> who "Neen" was and was getting ready to call the
> authorities. Except that "Neen" got some key
> things wrong, so she was talking out of her
> arsemagargle.

Hahahaha.........GT board member? What would that mean?

Stu Gibson may has access to student records, but private citizens do not.

I love how dumb you people are and how quickly you jump to erroneous conclusions.

UVA has all students online, as do most colleges. You, or anyone else, can look up her son and see that he is not in the engineering school, as she claimed:
www.virginia.edu The people search function is on this main page of the university. Not quite rocket science.

Feel free to call the authorities! lol@you

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:31PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Verity - It's my understanding that anyone can
> take an AP test. There's no requirement that the
> test takers must have taken the AP course. So, IB
> kids could have taken those AP tests.
>

Yes. Many TJ kids take, and do well on, AP tests for courses they have never taken.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:32PM

WestfieldDad: I can't agree that IB should be only a magnet program. One of its values is that it produces good thinkers, good writers, and good analysts. These are in critical demand in this country, and enough are not being produced. AP simply is not the "standard" in this country. It was originally meant as a college prep program, but thousands of private prep schools do the same thing, without AP. And the fact is that AP is no longer adequately preparing kids (colleges themselves complain about this).

Furthermore, anyone going into science is going to take post-graduate courses. No post-grad school is going to look at your high school coursework and deny or accept you on that basis. Anyone who wants to go into science needs to ask whether the college they're going to a) allows for independent thought and interdisciplinary studies, b) has faculty with good connections to internships and post-graduate schools, c) does not silo kids into fields from the get-go, and d) allows for good lab courses as soon as possible. Who here has heard of Juniata College, for example? It is EXCELLENT at preparing kids for grad work and it is just a college in the middle of Pennsylvania. But it offers real-life research programs to undergrads, with visiting professors who are tops in their fields.

In fact, many engineers I know (PEs) say the kids who do best in engineering begin with calculus in college, regardless of WHAT math they took in high school. The tracks for math align with the engineering coursework, and high school math produces abilities (even the most "rigorous" courses like BC or multivar) that vary the width of the spectrum. Engineering schools want their kids on the same playing field. This includes Purdue, btw.

The IB science program is outstanding -- but, like AP, depends a great deal on the teacher. I have been a science fair judge at four high schools every year the dates don't compete -- TJ, Marshall, South Lakes, Fairfax -- for the last five years. The TJ program uses the Intel Science rubric, which many high schools around here don't use (which is one reason TJ kids have a leg up -- apart from the fact that they are the cream of the crop and given a bunch of other advantages like summer internships they get high school credit for -- and that they're encouraged to begin their Senior science fair project with their Junior project).

The level of science at the other three schools ranges from "I pulled this off last night" to "I could have aced TJ." So to speak. This is true at all high schools in the county. There is nothing lacking in the science curricula at IB schools. It is taught differently. IB kids go on to be outstanding scientists -- in part because they think in the intersections of disciplines, as they were taught. This is a crucial need today! Ask any scientist what is lacking in education, and they will tell you: The ability to communicate in writing and orally, and the ability to think outside the discipline and synthesize. The "vision" thing. IB is excellent at that.

The brother of one of my friends is head of laser research at a major corporation we all know (I don't want to reveal too much about him in this thread). He went to Tufts, intending to go into international affairs. Ended up majoring in physics there (Tufts is not known for this) and working at Bell Labs, went on to Stanford, and thence this applied research post. He was a mediocre student in high school, where he took maybe three AP classes.

All the parents on this forum must remember that it is not high school that matters. It is college and beyond -- ANY college -- and what you do with the opportunities life sends you. Who ever asks about where you went to high school? Of the great scientific achievers, who went to "prestigious" "ivy-league" colleges? Most went on to grad school where their fields inspired them to go, and that's where they are known for having gone.

Finally, I agree with Berdhuis: We also need diplomats, entrepreneurs, teachers. professionals in the service industry, and the list goes on. Science and Math, like AP, is not the be-all and end-all.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:34PM

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On the magnet issue, IB should always & only
> ever
> > have been a magnet program in the US. I do
> think
> > the program has real value, it probably would
> have
> > been perfect for me. However, requiring that
> kids
> > take a non-standard curriculum, no matter how
> > good, by the happenstance of their residence is
> > simply wrong. It's simply not the standard
> > program of studies in the US. The misalignment
> > with the regular HS program makes it difficult
> for
> > kids can play up/down where it makes sense for
> > them, and the misalignment with the US standard
> > college level curriculum for
> > math/science/engineering types makes for
> problems
> > when they go on.
>
> If we wanted to have just one standard curriculum,
> I would agree with you. But can two standards
> exist, complementing each other? I say it can be
> so, and think that it is necessary for our society
> to have that breadth of education.

I would agree with you IF the mainstream program was in every high school and parents had the option of placing their child in the niche IB program. What is wrong is forcing a niche program on so many students whose parents would much prefer a mainstream American program.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:35PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Hey, SLV, can we agree to this? If you have a
> fact, cite your source. Otherwise label thoughts
> as opinions, suggestions, ideas, whatever?

Of course I agree, but if you quote IBO data that is eight years old, please indicate if that is the case so that we know it may not be current. :)

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:38PM

Does anyone here think that TJ kids are typical? I'd bet their parents would take issue with that.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2008 09:39PM

>>>One of its values is that it produces good thinkers, good writers, and good analysts.<<<

I have yet to see ANY evidence of that. In fact, our FCPS students who attend AP schools, and take the most AP courses, seem to write better, and think better than any IB graduate. Compare the top AP students at TJ, Langley, Madison, Oakton, or Woodson, compare their SAT1 and SAT2 scores to ANY IB student and show us where the IB student writes and/or thinks better. There is simply NO evidence that the IB program teaches any student to think better, despite how many times FCPS staff claims it to be true.

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