Living Wrote:
.
> >
>
> Perception that needs change and reality is not
> the same. Also different people have different
> perception of SL. You can not force other people
> to have the same value perception as yours.

Inviting people to visit the school isn't forcing anything. I'm requesting that people go themselves and learn first hand information instead of basing opinions on hearsay and gossip.

>
> The reality is if Floris parents treasure their
> kids' education most, they will avoid SL at all
> means if their perception is that SL is worse than
> other high schools. And these kids are the most
> "Advantaged".


Will some people in redistricted neighborhoods pupil place or move to private schools? Yes. But, the majority will go ahead and attend South Lakes, and by this time next year their perception of the school will be positive.

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> assessingSL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FCPS must give equal resources to all its
> schools,
> > but it cannot be accomplished with "hand
> > pick/advantage students" ....
> >
> The current scenario involves sending the
> neighborhoods closest to South Lakes to South
> Lakes without creating new attendance islands
> (like moving Crossfield would do.)
>
> It moves the least amount of students, and has the
> least amount of domino effect of any scenario
> discussed.
>
> It doesn't involved hand picking advantaged
> students. It makes the most sense looking at the
> map, the schools involved in the study, and the
> criteria of the study.

1) If the study does not include adjacent Madison and Langley, no scenario is convincing.

A real fair process should first determine if redistrict is needed. If redistrict is absolute needed based on studies and facts, then include Madison and Langley as option 6, 7, 8, 9 ... Let's discuss their advantages and disadvantages. If options 5 turns out to be the best option, Floris or Foxmill people will not feel this cheated.

Of course the is a difference between "Should" and reality.

2) The alternative option avoided Crossfield's feeder problem, but it also creates new additional feeder issue for Floris Elementary and Carson middle. How should Floris people be convinced?

3) We have to question the leadership of the School Board. Good leadership shows up in turmoil times. Good leaders clear rumors, give people hope, help people through hard times. The current impression to most people is that SB is self serving, political motivated, not listening to people's voices. If the impression turns out to be true, then the SB failed it's mission. If the impression is false and people still have this impression, then SB also failed. Good leadership will not leave people in doubt.

Restonian Wrote:

>
> Inviting people to visit the school isn't forcing
> anything. I'm requesting that people go
> themselves and learn first hand information
> instead of basing opinions on hearsay and gossip.
>

Are the following hearsay and gossip?

Safe and Secure
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:2:2341515774450235::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:320
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:2:1204146403018948::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:240

Test and Results
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:18:2341515774450235::NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:320
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:18:1204146403018948::NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:240

Restonian , nothing could be farther from the truth. Look at the map, North most pockets of Mc Nair almost become an island. Students from further north will go south passing the gerrymandered boundaries of Floris . There should be independent investigation of the whole process to determine :
a) Did money or other consideration change hands to exclude Langley and Madison from the process. Reston families go to Langley which has less 1% FRL. What sort of back room deals where made between politicians to exclude those communities? Which SB members benifitted politically or financially by excluding Langley and Madison?
b) How did SL PTA manage to infiltrate the FCPS staff? The final option was on the SL PTA sites and message boards long before it became official. The SL PTA was active trying to substitute McNair with Floris. The school officials adopted SL PTA position verbatim. What political pressure was brought on FCPS officials for this to happen? Which school board members were involved in this?

To restore the confidence in FCPS staff and SB, these details should be made public and officials involved in the conspiracy should either resign or be fired.

>
> 1) If the study does not include adjacent Madison
> and Langley, no scenario is convincing.
>
> A real fair process should first determine if
> redistrict is needed. If redistrict is absolute
> needed based on studies and facts, then include
> Madison and Langley as option 6, 7, 8, 9 ... Let's
> discuss their advantages and disadvantages. If
> options 5 turns out to be the best option, Floris
> or Foxmill people will not feel this cheated.
>
> Of course the is a difference between "Should" and
> reality.
>
> 2) The alternative option avoided Crossfield's
> feeder problem, but it also creates new additional
> feeder issue for Floris Elementary and Carson
> middle. How should Floris people be convinced?
>
> 3) We have to question the leadership of the
> School Board. Good leadership shows up in turmoil
> times. Good leaders clear rumors, give people
> hope, help people through hard times. The current
> impression to most people is that SB is self
> serving, political motivated, not listening to
> people's voices. If the impression turns out to be
> true, then the SB failed it's mission. If the
> impression is false and people still have this
> impression, then SB also failed. Good leadership
> will not leave people in doubt.

This new option also continues to leave Navy as a split feeder school and it causes our neighborhood to increase driving time to and from Oakton. The board really needs to at least try to be consistent. This whole idea should really just be bagged and start over with ALL high schools inovolved in the study. God forbid we should anger the Madison or Langley communities.

The current scenario involves sending the neighborhoods closest to South Lakes to South Lakes without creating new attendance islands (like moving Crossfield would do.)

It moves the least amount of students, and has the least amount of domino effect of any scenario discussed.

It doesn't involved hand picking advantaged students. It makes the most sense looking at the map, the schools involved in the study, and the criteria of the study.

It does involve hand-picking advantaged students, when SL does not want any of us from McNair even if we very close to the SL attendance area

Padre wrote to Madre:

"I have come to my senses. We are kaput. Please pay all bills, but don't sell the house."

______________________________

House already sold....along with your Lawrence Welk poster, your autographed picture of Dr. Kildare, your Bee Gees albums and your Hawaii Five-O memorabilia.

Living, Great Link to FCPS site. To truely compare Westfield and SL, one should also see that Westfield has twice the number of students as South Lakes. If you factor that in South Lakes is 800% more voilent in terms of serious incidents than Westfield. Wonder what the stats for Oakton are?

From FCPS site -
26 Fights, 15 serious incidents, 7 weapon fights in SL.
If this redistricting goes through, the SB should provide armed police protection inside SL. With 700 new students coming in, those will become easy targets - things could become very scary and risky in there.

Madre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Padre wrote to Madre:
>
> "I have come to my senses. We are kaput. Please
> pay all bills, but don't sell the house."
>
> ______________________________
>
> House already sold....along with your Lawrence
> Welk poster, your autographed picture of Dr.
> Kildare, your Bee Gees albums and your Hawaii
> Five-O memorabilia.

C'mon. You didn't sell. No one buys in Reston, remember?

I liked Duke, MASH, and Funkadelic, btw. That stuff was yo' daddy's.

Book 'em, dan'o.

sb_falsehoods Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From FCPS site -
> 26 Fights, 15 serious incidents, 7 weapon fights
> in SL.
> If this redistricting goes through, the SB should
> provide armed police protection inside SL. With
> 700 new students coming in, those will become easy
> targets - things could become very scary and risky
> in there.

Call Officer Baranyk, who knows his way around town.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/30/AR2006053001016.html

or talk with the neighbors:

Oakton Outlook

When put side by side, differences between Oakton and South Lakes balance out
12-18-07
Matt Johnson and Erica Wohlleben

South Lakes High School is dangerous. At least, that is what a number of vocal parents speaking out against the West County Boundary Study want you to believe.
South Lakes High School is dangerous. At least, that is what a number of vocal parents speaking out against the West County Boundary Study want you to believe. Based on the claims of various parents, an outsider would presume the school is a constant battleground - a dead-end rampant with drugs and gang violence.

To rid ourselves of the status of "outsider," we took one day to visit this war zone. As students of Oakton, a school with rough pockets of its own, we shadowed students at South Lakes to observe and examine. How rough is it really? How does AP compare to IB? Overall, how do Oakton and South Lakes stack up side-by-side? Here is what we found.

Crime and Violence

The first rumor about South Lakes was dispelled immediately upon entering the building. There were, in fact, no metal detectors at the door. In reality, the only abnormality was all the construction equipment surrounding the school. No drug deals, no drive-bys, no violence - just students filing off busses and into the school.

South Lakes has had trouble shedding the negative reputation it acquired in the '80s. "Urban legends" have formed about the school and despite behavioral changes, the off-putting reputation persists.

"South Lakes was bad a long time ago," explained Jamal Cooper, a sophomore at South Lakes. "But it is completely different now. The people are different now."

South Lakes had 26 fights over the 2005-2006 school year. While that may sound like a daunting statistic, the numbers are very subjective.

"Those are [numbers] that we type in, and we are pretty strict," said South Lakes Principal Bruce Butler. "I'm not implying other schools [falsify] it, but we have incredible detail in what we type in. To me, that is proof that this is a safe and secure place because we don't fool around. Why would any of us work here if it were like that?"

Collectively, we personally have witnessed nine fights at Oakton over our combined five years; surely South Lakes students could match that number or far surpass it. However, the students we talked to said they have witnessed anywhere from zero to three fights during their time at South Lakes, not far off from the average Oakton student.

"People say it's a dangerous school," said Matt Ravenstahl, South Lakes fine arts teacher for 14 years. "I have never once seen a fight. I have never once broken up a fight. I have never once felt threatened or endangered."

Retro -
There are kids (3/4/+ standard deviations above the mean) who require (and I do mean require) Level IV services. As far as I know, the only practical approach to address their needs is to bus them to centers. It's the only way to ensure there's at least a couple kids somewhere near their level in their classes or even their schools - yes, even in Fairfax County, even in GT centers, even before the centers were diluted. Otherwise, they simply end up spending all day, every day, bored out of their minds, having no one they can talk to in their classes, coming home in tears, because they knew everything being "taught" years before.

You might suggest keeping the costs down by having each ES have a Level IV class, but there are four big problems with that "solution" -

1) Some ESes have 5 kids identified, others 30. It's not feasible to offer separate Level IV classes to the 5 at their base schools, the county simply won't do it, even if it were deemed the least expensive approach.
2) If you attempt to create Level IV classes at each ES, (like they have done at McNair, Floris, etc), most ESes will end up mixing in high numbers of teacher pleasers and Level II/III kids to fill out the classes leaving the Level IV kids still bored to tears.
3) At the few ESes where there are enough identified kids to fill a class, they all end up in a single class that's together for 4 years in a row with all the social problems that implies.
4) Finally, there are some who are simply so far out there that, even with centers drawing from half a dozen ESes, there's only one or two peers in a class or grade.

Retro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen said:
> "That is NOT the case since GT centers were
> expanded from 4.5% to 14%. Many of the current GT
> students do NOT speak English and many need
> remedial help in English and/or math. Many of them
> are also now FRL. The GT office gets most of their
> funding through their 'Young Scholars" program
> which is designed to place more Blacks, Hispanics,
> and children in poverty, into GT centers. The
> population at GT centers has changed dramatically
> over the last 10 to 15 years. Every GT center has
> remedial classes to help children who are
> 'potentially gifted' but have not yet received
> their gifts."
>
> Neen, have you even looked at the county site that
> describes the GT programs or talked to someone
> involved? I've seen you rant on this before. You
> seem to be mixing apples and oranges. If you did
> study up, you'd see that there are four levels to
> the county's gifted program. Only the top level
> (Level IV) qualifies as a center and has kids
> bused; this is what I would consider GT immersion
> and it covers all topics. I think of it as the
> expensive GT. However, you present things as if
> all the GT kids were usurping space/services/food
> in centers and going to heck in a handbasket.
>
> Most of the rest of the GT kids are in relatively
> inexpensive classroom pull out programs (or
> enrichments given to their classroom teachers),
> but only for specific subjects like math or
> reading in my experience. You are quite mistaken
> if you think that the kids in the Young Scholars
> (Level II GT) program are less than bright. They
> are in the program because their IQs tested at
> "merely" 125 instead of the 132 needed for a GT
> Center placement. They are considered for the
> program because of some valid obstacle which may
> have impaired their test taking abilities. For my
> son, it is mild dyslexia, even though FCPS wrongly
> chooses to not recognize dyslexia as a learning
> issue. Yeah, he's a white kid who is a Young
> Scholar, speaks fluent English, and is not on FRL;
> your broad characterization is off.
>
> Each YS that I know comes from an academically
> motivated family, even if their first language
> wasn't English. The kids get pulled out for
> specific subjects because they are bright, not
> because they are needy; their heightened talents
> deserve the extra development. That said, a kid
> pulled out for excellence in reading might require
> extra help in math, but it is a matter of gifts
> differing, not a redundancy or waste of gifted
> training/center space or an indicator of their
> race/socioeconomic status. We all had strengths
> and weaknesses in school, I'm sure, regardless of
> race or country of origin.
>
> I hope you'll present the overall program better
> next time. All kids aren't in centers, they don't
> receive special busing/expensive provisions,
> they're not generally on FRL, and they often have
> GT for only a subject or two in conjunction with a
> regular classroom. It is a lot more simple and
> less clandestine than you make it.

Restonian,
You are correct. People need to see what feeds into South Lakes. I have spent a lot of time looking at this first hand. If you drive around and look at the older apartments and other housing that may not seem appealing, and then focus on the various skin colors that aren't like us (me), a negative person can take a quick look a drive off with a "I've seen enough" attitude.

However, what I saw during my drive was an young well dressed asian couple with a young boy on his dad's back, all happy and smiling. I saw two 9-10 year old black boys "hanging out" in front of an apartment and holding a BOOK. I saw a few teenagers either middle eastern or hispanic on a field, nope, not playing soccer, but football. I saw a black mother out walking with her 9-10 year old daughter while she rode her bike. I saw several groups of young men, dressed nicely and clean cut, many looked to be profesional types. And to balance this out, I saw a couple of funky looking white guys that I wouldn't want to sit by in the cafateria.

These people appear to be caring, family oriented people. If this is the worst that South Lakes has to offer then so what. I didn't bother looking at the "better off" areas such as town homes or SF homes. Does it matter if some of these kids are in class with my kids? If anything I have compassion for these people who live there. So many of us in Fairfax have so much. And so what if some of them don't have the same uptight, type A outlook that the rest of us have.

I work at company that employs various types of people for blue collar type positions and I enjoy speaking with these folks. It keeps me grounded, they are a hard working and generally happy group. Many of them have advanced to better positions. I have enjoyed seeing their English progress from "none" to "very good". They like a good joke just like I do.

Anyway, I am a straight ticket conservative and I did my share to fight Stu's railroad job. I am open minded though and I think my exposure to certain demographics gives me a different perspective. I understand not wanting to leave your current school but there is a ton of enlightenment to be gained by opening up your minds.

Living Wrote:

> 2) The alternative option avoided Crossfield's
> feeder problem, but it also creates new additional
> feeder issue for Floris Elementary and Carson
> middle. How should Floris people be convinced?

It's actually worse than you say, McNair, Floris, and Hutchison are all getting carved up again a year from now in the Coppermine redistricting. No one knows, unless the board/staff are even more corrupt than anyone (even on this board) has implied so far, what the boundaries of any of these three schools will be one year after the SL redistricting takes effect. No one knows what the split feeders will be. No one knows what the long term community impacts will be. Anyone who claims to know otherwise is misinformed. Note, that's true of the Floris parents - of whom I am one - as well as the SL parents & staff who dreamed up "Northeast Floris", where ever that is.

South Lake could be a dangerous place. South Lake could also be a nice and secure school. But if you are the parents, do you want to send your own children there to find out which is true?

hoosb_falsehoods Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restonian , nothing could be farther from the
> truth. Look at the map, North most pockets of Mc
> Nair almost become an island.

McNair's neighborhoods are further from South Lakes than the Floris neighborhoods being moved.

There should
> be independent investigation of the whole process
> to determine :

I can't speak for the School Board, and you are welcome to instigate this investigation.

Langley and Madison are not included in this study. Other schools are, and South Lakes needs more population. The need exists, and the opportunity to fulfill the need. This redistricting should continue.

> b) How did SL PTA manage to infiltrate the FCPS
> staff? The final option was on the SL PTA sites
> and message boards long before it became official.

The South Lakes PTSA posted information about the boundary study, including talking points worked up by a group of SL parents, pyramid parents, and other Fairfax County citizens. Those talking points included several suggested changes to the scenarios as requested on the FCPS website.

> The SL PTA was active trying to substitute McNair
> with Floris.

No, they were not. Several parents who support South Lakes and McNair were working for that substitution though. Many others wanted Aldrin brought in with Fox Mill, some wanted Option 4, and others thought that more of Crossfield should come to South Lakes.

>The school officials adopted SL PTA
> position verbatim.

There was no SL PTA position

What political pressure was
> brought on FCPS officials for this to happen?
> Which school board members were involved in this?

There was no pressure, no involvement of school board members. Parents at South Lakes, and supporting South Lakes used the response forms on the FCPS website and made substantive comments at the December 3rd meeting.

Everyone involved had the right to make substantive comments and suggestions about how to better meet the eight criteria. In my meeting room most people against the redistricting protested the study completely instead of making any concrete suggestions.

Moving McNair to South Lakes worked against the criteria to balance the socio-economic disparties between the schools.

In fact, as Taxpayer has posted here, moving McNair from Westfield to South Lakes may have been illegal.

>
> To restore the confidence in FCPS staff and SB,
> these details should be made public and officials
> involved in the conspiracy should either resign or
> be fired.

There was no backroom conspiracy involving the SLPTSA, or any group of SL parents and the FCPS staff.

If you had another solution, that involved only the schools in this boundary study, and met the eight criteria, why didn't you share it with the FCPS staff? What was that solution?

Officer Krumpke , something does not add up. In your post/link about Oakton, on Page 4 -
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/30/AR2006053001016_4.html

it is qouted
"It's soon 11 o'clock, already time for the first in a series of lunches in the cafeteria. There's usually a fight a week in the Oakton cafeteria. Today, it's pretty quiet, and as he walks around, Baranyk shifts his attention to a kid in an oversize black T-shirt seated alone at the corner of a long table. "

If that is true, then the Oakton stats on FCPS site should say about 40 to 50 fights on cafeteria alone. But they are far less...

If you are a parent you listen to what others with first hand experience have to say. The vast majority will tell you that the statistics to not tell the whole story.

Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lake could be a dangerous place. South Lake
> could also be a nice and secure school. But if you
> are the parents, do you want to send your own
> children there to find out which is true?

If you're the parents, you could certainly manage a trip to the school to check things out.

>>>However, the actual rail project is not yet approved by FTA.<<<

Good grief. How many more decades do they need?

>>>It may be annoying to you, it may not be what you want. But it's not a sacrifice.<<<

Why do YOU get to decide what is a sacrifice for someone else?

This is what drives people nuts about Restonians. Their arrogance!

Contrary to what you might believe, you are not the arbiters of what every family should need or want. Nor do you get to decide what is a sacrifice for others and what is not. Sheeze.

sb_falsehoods Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Officer Krumpke , something does not add up. In
> your post/link about Oakton, on Page 4 -
> www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006
> /05/30/AR2006053001016_4.html
>

> If that is true, then the Oakton stats on FCPS
> site should say about 40 to 50 fights on cafeteria
> alone. But they are far less...

If you had started posting on this forum earlier you would have read that the school stats reporting is totally subjective and thus not reliable for comparing schools. The South Lakes principal is a stickler for reporting each and every incident. Not all principals do so. Why I do not know, but one could speculate that they don't want perceptions to be negative. I would trust the officer in the article more than the school report. After all, what has he got to lose?

>>>What do you call forcing people giving up higher value and adopting lower value? If not sacrifice, then robbery?<<<

That too would be accurate.

> Restonian wrote -

> If you had another solution, that involved only the schools in this boundary > study, and met the eight criteria, why didn't you share it with the FCPS > staff? What was that solution?

A fair solution cannot be achieved by artifically excluding Langley and Madison areas which are right next to South Lakes boundary .
In fact someone posted a message from SB member Stu saying that he does not support North Point to be taken from Langley into SL. But Fox Mill is fair game!!
Why are Reston communities that are going to Langley excluded while Fox Mill and Floris included? The FCPS staff punts the question by saying SB decided. Now is the time to ask the SB - what are the criteria to exclude Langley and Mandison - color of skin, high income , lot of $$ contribution to campaign funds, infuence in political areas or ??

There are no winners here. Some communities are going to lose big by being redistricted into South Lakes. SL is in the worst 3 high schools in the county based on fcps.edu stats. The decision to find the losers has to be fair and transparent. You cannot give a blank check to Langley and then tell Fox Mill that they have to sacrifice. Since Langley and Madison areas are more affluent, those parents might be able to afford sending to private school if they wanted to opt out of SL. For the middle class communities of Fox Mill and Floris that might not be an option.

Or maybe as some posted here, the solution is to bus the FRL students of SL into langley. After all Langley is only 0.3% FRL. oh, but they have the money to contribute to campaign funds of the SB.. so they are above all the solutions

Living, I assume you do not really mean it, but some of your posts seem to imply that Floris parents care more about their children's education than South Lakes parents. I and others would take issue with that implication. Just like you, we care deeply about the education and safety of our children. I assure you that I would never let my children into a school or other place where I did not think they would be safe.

sb_falsehoods Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Please, what fcps.edu stats are you quoting?

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Living Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lake could be a dangerous place. South
> Lake
> > could also be a nice and secure school. But if
> you
> > are the parents, do you want to send your own
> > children there to find out which is true?
>
> If you're the parents, you could certainly manage
> a trip to the school to check things out.

What parents see and what students experience at school are two totally different things. The point is no one is going to risk their own children if there is a slight hint of doubt.

On another note, SL's appearance should look good. It has just spent more than 60 millions!

RDS (Reston Derangement Syndrome).

sb_falsehoods Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Restonian wrote -
>
> > If you had another solution, that involved only
> the schools in this boundary > study, and met the
> eight criteria, why didn't you share it with the
> FCPS > staff? What was that solution?
>
> A fair solution cannot be achieved by artifically
> excluding Langley and Madison areas which are
> right next to South Lakes boundary .
......

maybe as some posted here, the solution is to
> bus the FRL students of SL into langley. After all
> Langley is only 0.3% FRL.


So is your answer, "I can not think of any solution that meets the eight criteria better using the schools involved in the study."

Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restonian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Living Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > South Lake could be a dangerous place. South
> > Lake
> > > could also be a nice and secure school. But
> if
> > you
> > > are the parents, do you want to send your own
> > > children there to find out which is true?
> >
> > If you're the parents, you could certainly
> manage
> > a trip to the school to check things out.
>
> What parents see and what students experience at
> school are two totally different things. The point
> is no one is going to risk their own children if
> there is a slight hint of doubt.
>
> On another note, SL's appearance should look good.
> It has just spent more than 60 millions!

Have you ever visited South Lakes? You should not make judgements without firsthand knowledge. After all, if we were to judge Westfield based on the actions of two recent graduates who committed mass murder, that would not be fair to the school or its students, would it?

SLVerity Wrote:
Just like you, we
> care deeply about the education and safety of our
> children. I assure you that I would never let my
> children into a school or other place where I did
> not think they would be safe.


Verity, that is a great point. I would like to echo your statement

I'd like to add that South Lakes is such a safe place that I feel entirely comfortable bringing my younger children to the school and to school events.

Retro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Neen, have you even looked at the county site that
> describes the GT programs or talked to someone
> involved? I've seen you rant on this before. You
> seem to be mixing apples and oranges. If you did
> study up, you'd see that there are four levels to
> the county's gifted program. Only the top level
> (Level IV) qualifies as a center and has kids
> bused; this is what I would consider GT immersion
> and it covers all topics. I think of it as the
> expensive GT. However, you present things as if
> all the GT kids were usurping space/services/food
> in centers and going to heck in a handbasket.
>
> Most of the rest of the GT kids are in relatively
> inexpensive classroom pull out programs (or
> enrichments given to their classroom teachers),
> but only for specific subjects like math or
> reading in my experience. You are quite mistaken
> if you think that the kids in the Young Scholars
> (Level II GT) program are less than bright. They
> are in the program because their IQs tested at
> "merely" 125 instead of the 132 needed for a GT
> Center placement. They are considered for the
> program because of some valid obstacle which may
> have impaired their test taking abilities. For my
> son, it is mild dyslexia, even though FCPS wrongly
> chooses to not recognize dyslexia as a learning
> issue. Yeah, he's a white kid who is a Young
> Scholar, speaks fluent English, and is not on FRL;
> your broad characterization is off.
>
> Each YS that I know comes from an academically
> motivated family, even if their first language
> wasn't English. The kids get pulled out for
> specific subjects because they are bright, not
> because they are needy; their heightened talents
> deserve the extra development. That said, a kid
> pulled out for excellence in reading might require
> extra help in math, but it is a matter of gifts
> differing, not a redundancy or waste of gifted
> training/center space or an indicator of their
> race/socioeconomic status. We all had strengths
> and weaknesses in school, I'm sure, regardless of
> race or country of origin.
>
>
Yes, Retro, having been involved in GT education in the county for 20 years, including the GTAC and the FCAG, I do know a bit about how GT education works in this county.

Yes, we all have strengths and interests but I don't know how that is relevant to GT centers, unless you are saying that everyone should be in a GT center.

Yes, I am aware of the 4 levels of GT service but I was talking about GT centers, level 4.

The goal of Young Scholars is to increase the enrollment of Blacks and Hispanics (under represented minorities) in the GT centers. Period. They do NOT screen for families who are interested in academics. There is NO academic goal. The goals are race based only. Oops, I mean "under represented minorities" based.

I have no problem with any child being pulled out for accelerated learning. I do have a problem with children being put in a GT center who cannot keep up with the majority of students. That simply is not fair to the teacher, the other students, and most importantly to the student who is placed there. If the student isn't quite ready for a center, why not wait a year or two until they are ready?

Please, call Dr. Carol Horn and ask her about her Young Scholars program. She'll be happy to read to you the goals that she established for the Young Scholars program. Her dissertation was her Young Scholars program. Of course she's hoping to sell the program to other school systems across the country. Her program has been successful in that more Blacks are in the program, although there is no academic measure to ascertain if those children have actually been better educated or done better on any academic measure because there are none.

Seriously, call Carol and ask her to quote you the goals of Young Scholars. Also ask her the percentage of FCPS students in GT centers. Carol.Horn@fcps.edu or 703-846-8670.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2007 12:08AM by Neen.

>>>I'd like to add that South Lakes is such a safe place that I feel entirely comfortable bringing my younger children to the school and to school events.<<<

Why is it that only South Lakes parents and students need to say this, over and over? No one from Madison, Oakton, or Westfield feels the need to say this. I can say that in 20 years I have NEVER heard anyone say that Madison is so safe I feel comfortable going there with my children. Why is only South Lakes people who make such statements?

Living Wrote:
->
> What parents see and what students experience at
> school are two totally different things. The point
> is no one is going to risk their own children if
> there is a slight hint of doubt.

My child has been going to the school this year, and I trust that child's powers of observation and perception.

>
> On another note, SL's appearance should look good.
> It has just spent more than 60 millions!

South Lakes is still in the middle of the renovation, so I'm not talking about the physical look of the school. Right now it looks like a construction zone.

I'm praising the atmosphere in the school, during school hours and at school events.

It is a fact that IF scenario 5 ia passed, that SLHS SAT's will be in the top half of all Fairfax County Schools. Right above Westfields and right behind Chantilly, maybe even above both schools. It's in the numbers more than my opinion.

>>>Westfield based on the actions of two recent graduates who committed mass murder, that would not be fair to the school or its students, would it?<<<<

That would be fair only if the school had made them delusional, paranoid, schizophrenics, and/or if they had harmed students at the schools.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Living, I assume you do not really mean it, but
> some of your posts seem to imply that Floris
> parents care more about their children's education
> than South Lakes parents. I and others would take
> issue with that implication. Just like you, we
> care deeply about the education and safety of our
> children. I assure you that I would never let my
> children into a school or other place where I did
> not think they would be safe.

I never doubted SL parents dedication to their children and children's education. I see many happy SL parents and students and I envy them not have to change their beloved school.

To Floris parents, their lives belong to Floris with the rest of Floris that they will be separated from. There are many good kids graduated from Oakton then Westfield in the neighborhood. That's the first hand knowledge. We feel comfortable with our current school.

> Restonian wrote:
> So is your answer, "I can not think of any solution that meets the eight
> criteria better using the schools involved in the study."

You are correct. The whole study is flawed. The basic issue is what you said "schools involved in the study" - the current schools involved in the study were chosen only becuase of their lack of political influence/ $$ influence over school board members campaign funds. When the 2 biggest potential schools right next to Reston - Langley and Madison with less than 1% FRL were excluded, the study was compromised - any solution is going to be unfair as the basis to start with itself is suspect.

Folks here are endlessly arguing about 15% or 33% FRL while ignoring number as low as 0.3% FRL in Langley to which Reston neighbourhoods go!!.

We should not be thinking of solutions within these school - That is the whole trap that the SB wants the people to fall into. Why is the SB trying to protect a 0.3% FRL of Langley ?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why is it that only South Lakes parents and
> students need to say this, over and over? No one
> from Madison, Oakton, or Westfield feels the need
> to say this. I can say that in 20 years I have
> NEVER heard anyone say that Madison is so safe I
> feel comfortable going there with my children.
> Why is only South Lakes people who make such
> statements?

If those schools were being falsely maligned, I'm sure you'd hear similar statements from parents there.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>I'd like to add that South Lakes is such a safe
> place that I feel entirely comfortable bringing my
> younger children to the school and to school
> events.<<<
>
> Why is it that only South Lakes parents and
> students need to say this, over and over? No one
> from Madison, Oakton, or Westfield feels the need
> to say this. I can say that in 20 years I have
> NEVER heard anyone say that Madison is so safe I
> feel comfortable going there with my children.
> Why is only South Lakes people who make such
> statements?

You surely can't be criticizing us for defending our school and correcting erroneous assumptions and information. If we were not being targeted negatively on this board, we certainly would not have to defend. You have jumped to Madison's defense when you felt it was necessary, on this very thread.

sb_falsehoods:
-------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you should be asking Neen what political influence she and others exerted to keep Madison out of the study. After all, she lives in the Madison attendance area.

>>>Can you please advise me as to where I can find out the percentage
of FRL in the GT program?<<<

Traditionally, very, very few. It's odd, smart people tend to make more money, and they also tend to have smart children. Perhaps it's not so surprising.

Carol Horn and the GT office have worked very hard over the last 9 years to increase the number of poor minorities in the GT center programs. That is the reason for tripling the size of the centers. You can ask Carol Horn for the percentage of GT center students who are FRL. Here's the link to contact her:
http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/gt/directory.htm

Why does the income of GT students matter?

SLVerity

> Please, what fcps.edu stats are you quoting?

Just go to the link Living gave us here -
schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:17:2771936436138017::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:320

Then you can go a level above and pull up the SAT , AP scores for all High Schools. Its tedious, but if you click through you will find almost all of the HS have scores better than SL.

>>>Perhaps you should be asking Neen what political influence she and others exerted to keep Madison out of the study. After all, she lives in the Madison attendance area.<<<<

OR YOU could just ask me. I simply told Jim Webb, John Warner, Tom Davis, and Frank Wolf, to leave Madison out of the study. Unfortunately it didn't work for Frank's neighborhood and the island will be sent to South Lakes. :(

In fact, I am SO powerful, I actually chose, through my vast political contacts, which neighborhoods would be considered and which would not. I am just that cool.

>>>You surely can't be criticizing us for defending our school and correcting erroneous assumptions and information. If we were not being targeted negatively on this board, we certainly would not have to defend. You have jumped to Madison's defense when you felt it was necessary, on this very thread.<<

When did anyone have to defend Madison? I haven't defended Madison because there is no need to.

There is a reason why you have to defend South Lakes. Obviously.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Have you ever visited South Lakes? You should not
> make judgements without firsthand knowledge.
> After all, if we were to judge Westfield based on
> the actions of two recent graduates who committed
> mass murder, that would not be fair to the school
> or its students, would it?

Our first hand knowledge is that there are so many good kids graduated from Oakton and Westfield in the neighborhood over the years. It takes years to build a trust. One or two trips or tours to SL can not compare to years of trust.

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Why is it that only South Lakes parents and
> > students need to say this, over and over? No
> one
> > from Madison, Oakton, or Westfield feels the
> need
> > to say this. I can say that in 20 years I have
> > NEVER heard anyone say that Madison is so safe
> I
> > feel comfortable going there with my children.
> > Why is only South Lakes people who make such
> > statements?
>
> If those schools were being falsely maligned, I'm
> sure you'd hear similar statements from parents
> there.

Right, all the stats are wrong. Everyone is misinformed. No one really understands how great 'diversity' really is, and how much it improves academics. No one really appreciates how beneficial a European based program is to academic excellence. ALL the statistics lie, so everyone should ignore them and send their children to South Lakes. uh-huh.

Curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a fact that IF scenario 5 ia passed, that
> SLHS SAT's will be in the top half of all Fairfax
> County Schools. Right above Westfields and right
> behind Chantilly, maybe even above both schools.
> It's in the numbers more than my opinion.


Curious, Can you please point to the url where you get the data? where is the data for SAT scores of HS students just from Fox Mill, Floris and Madison Island ?

Also even if that data adds up, then you are assuming that these students will continue to score high even when they are transferred to SL where they will not have access to the AP programs they had at Madison, Oakton and Westfield.

>
>
> So is your answer, "I can not think of any
> solution that meets the eight criteria better
> using the schools involved in the study."

Actually, no scenario can capture the criteria 100%. We have fallen into the SB's web by pitting one against the other. We ll want what's best for our children. This process has been nothing less than the SB using communites as their puppets. They will do whatever they so desire. It's been a fraud since the beginning.

Padre to Madre:

"That stuff was yo' daddy's."
___________________

Wish that were true. But, my Daddy had better taste.

BTW.... Berdhuiis is waiting for you at a bar called ... The OK Corral.

You left me for that?

Neen Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>
> When did anyone have to defend Madison? I haven't
> defended Madison because there is no need to.

And you call Restonians arrogant.


>
> There is a reason why you have to defend South
> Lakes. Obviously.

Yes, when people say incorrect things. Like you did about Reston Association not allowing renovations...remember?

Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Our first hand knowledge is that there are so many
> good kids graduated from Oakton and Westfield in
> the neighborhood over the years. It takes years to
> build a trust. One or two trips or tours to SL can
> not compare to years of trust.

If you came to my South Lakes neighborhood you would find many good kids graduated from South Lakes over the years too. I don't doubt that your neighborhood has good kids, and I expect the same respect from you.

SLDS (South Lakes Derangement Syndrome).

Jeanine, have you no shame?

LOCATION:

The OK Corral
A gay bar in DC
Very Gay

Security camera in corner of bar films Birdhuiis and his lover, The Padre.

Lip reader interprets:

Berhuiis:
Oh, Padre, where have you been all my life?

Padre:
Listen, I like you, too.... but, my wife is leaving me. She's selling all my stuff. I've got to get home before she sells my new teeth.

SLVerity just burst into the OK Corral, with a few other, middle aged, rather frumpy looking females....all... yelling...


"South Lakes Derangement Syndrome"... "South Lakes Derangement Syndrome"


What's up with that?

>>>My child has been going to the school this year, and I trust that child's powers of observation and perception.<<<<

He has no life experience and no experience in any other high school. Not exactly the best source.

deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2007 02:10AM by Neen.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >
> > When did anyone have to defend Madison? I
> haven't
> > defended Madison because there is no need to.
>
> And you call Restonians arrogant.
>
>
> >
> > There is a reason why you have to defend South
> > Lakes. Obviously.
>
> Yes, when people say incorrect things. Like you
> did about Reston Association not allowing
> renovations...remember?

What's that got to do with this discussion?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >
> > When did anyone have to defend Madison? I
> haven't
> > defended Madison because there is no need to.
>
> And you call Restonians arrogant.
>
>
> >
> > There is a reason why you have to defend South
> > Lakes. Obviously.
>
> Yes, when people say incorrect things. Like you
> did about Reston Association not allowing
> renovations...remember?

What's that got to do with this discussion? Just changing the subject, yet again?

Why is it arrogant to say that Madison doesn't need me defending it?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLDS (South Lakes Derangement Syndrome).
>
> Jeanine, have you no shame?

Have you NO BRAINS? Or Shame?

Sheeze, you Restonians are dumb and shameless. Not a good combination.

Observation

SLVerity is getting her ass kicked by Neen, who remains in the lead.

Thank you, WestfieldDad, for explaining why Fairfax County created GT Centers. According to FCPS staff, some "Level 4" classes in base elementary schools have under five "identified" Level 4 students. And those students may be only 1 standard deviation (or less) above average, given the holistic nature of the current GTC selection process. FYI, under recent budget, Transportation Task Force and other proposals, FCPS would reduce bus service to GT Centers.

Retro, The average CogAT score of students admitted to the Level 4 GT Center program is now about 120, and the range starts below 100. If your son has a 125 IQ and is not considered Level 4, FCPS staff didn't like something else in his file. None of this, of course, is posted on the FCPS web site. The FCPS staff approach to redistricting that has generated so many complaints is just like (or perhaps less terrible) than the FCPS approach to certain other issues.

If anybody is interested in discussions of GT issues, here's another list, which is sponsored by the Fairfax County Association for the Gifted:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FCAG


WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Retro -

There are kids (3/4/+ standard deviations above the mean) who require (and I do mean require) Level IV services. As far as I know, the only practical approach to address their needs is to bus them to centers. It's the only way to ensure there's at least a couple kids somewhere near their level in their classes or even their schools - yes, even in Fairfax County, even in GT centers, even before the centers were diluted. Otherwise, they simply end up spending all day, every day, bored out of their minds, having no one they can talk to in their classes, coming home in tears,because they knew everything being "taught" years before.

You might suggest keeping the costs down by having each ES have a Level IV class, but there are four big problems with that "solution" -

1) Some ESes have 5 kids identified, others 30. It's not feasible to offer separate Level IV classes to the 5 at their base schools, the county simply won't do it, even if it were deemed the least expensive approach.

2) If you attempt to create Level IV classes at each ES, (like they have done at McNair, Floris, etc), most ESes will end up mixing in high numbers of teacher pleasers and Level II/III kids to fill out the classes leaving the Level IV kids still bored to tears.

3) At the few ESes where there are enough identified kids to fill a class, they all end up in a single class that's together for 4 years in a row with all the social problems that implies.

4) Finally, there are some who are simply so far out there that, even with centers drawing from half a dozen ESes, there's only one or two peers in a class or grade.

If that's the case....explain to me why McNair was not included, if it's not "handpicking"?, and don't BS me with the Title I excuse...

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> assessingSL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FCPS must give equal resources to all its
> schools,
> > but it cannot be accomplished with "hand
> > pick/advantage students" ....
> >
> The current scenario involves sending the
> neighborhoods closest to South Lakes to South
> Lakes without creating new attendance islands
> (like moving Crossfield would do.)
>
> It moves the least amount of students, and has the
> least amount of domino effect of any scenario
> discussed.
>
> It doesn't involved hand picking advantaged
> students. It makes the most sense looking at the
> map, the schools involved in the study, and the
> criteria of the study.

Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restonian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Living Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > South Lake could be a dangerous place. South
> > Lake
> > > could also be a nice and secure school. But
> if
> > you
> > > are the parents, do you want to send your own
> > > children there to find out which is true?
> >
> > If you're the parents, you could certainly
> manage
> > a trip to the school to check things out.
>
> What parents see and what students experience at
> school are two totally different things. The point
> is no one is going to risk their own children if
> there is a slight hint of doubt.
>
> On another note, SL's appearance should look good.
> It has just spent more than 60 millions!


The County has spent $48M or so to undertake a long-delayed and overdue renovation of a Fairfax County public school.

Thankfully, thanks to careful stewardship of our (County residents) tax dollars, the school both looks good and is functional.

Time to get some return on our (Fairfax County residents) investment, don't you think?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>I'd like to add that South Lakes is such a safe
> place that I feel entirely comfortable bringing my
> younger children to the school and to school
> events.<<<
>
> Why is it that only South Lakes parents and
> students need to say this, over and over? No one
> from Madison, Oakton, or Westfield feels the need
> to say this. I can say that in 20 years I have
> NEVER heard anyone say that Madison is so safe I
> feel comfortable going there with my children.
> Why is only South Lakes people who make such
> statements?


Are you serious? We say it because so many people who've never been there talk about how dangerous it is, gang-ridden, etc. You've said or implied the same, repeatedly.

We try to ignore a lot of it, but -- as Quantum often espouses -- this is a marketplace and one needs to compete and proclaim the virtues and vitality of the school (or something like that). So we have to state the positives and rebut the negatives.

Don't be so disingenuous.

Curious Wrote:

>
> Anyway, I am a straight ticket conservative and I
> did my share to fight Stu's railroad job. I am
> open minded though

Are you equating conservatism with general close-mindedness?

> and I think my exposure to
> certain demographics gives me a different
> perspective.

Do you have more exposure to 'certain demographics' than many if not most residents of Fairfax County?

> I understand not wanting to leave
> your current school but there is a ton of
> enlightenment to be gained by opening up your
> minds.

Are you saying that a preference for Westfield, Chantilly, or Oakton over South Lakes is a sign of a general lack of enlightenment or a closed mind?

Madre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observation
>
> SLVerity is getting her ass kicked by Neen, who
> remains in the lead.


Neen is in the lead:

Neen: 12,675,987 posts

SLVerity: 242 posts

Madre (the guy at the OK Corral bar in the Burgundy hair in the Redskins mini with the pig nose, frantically trying to set the Guinness record for how many different ways to spell "Berdhuis"): 15 posts

SLHS Padre Wrote:

>
> The County has spent $48M or so to undertake a
> long-delayed and overdue renovation of a Fairfax
> County public school.
>
> Thankfully, thanks to careful stewardship of our
> (County residents) tax dollars, the school both
> looks good and is functional.
>
> Time to get some return on our (Fairfax County
> residents) investment, don't you think?

Agreed. I would also like to consider the fact that the Westfield addition was just completed this fall. And, of course, if we are really concerned about tax dollars, what are we spending money expanding Langley for? Oh yeah, the wording in the CIP about nearby schools being at or above capacity was "unfortunate." And, of course, to paraphrase Stu, the politics just wasn't there.

Now that's careful stewardship.

Madre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW.... Berdhuiis is waiting for you at a bar
> called ... The OK Corral.
>
> You left me for that?

Damn right!
Attachments:

McNairluvSL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The current scenario involves sending the
> neighborhoods closest to South Lakes to South
> Lakes without creating new attendance islands
> (like moving Crossfield would do.)
>
> It moves the least amount of students, and has the
> least amount of domino effect of any scenario
> discussed.
>
> It doesn't involved hand picking advantaged
> students. It makes the most sense looking at the
> map, the schools involved in the study, and the
> criteria of the study.
>
> It does involve hand-picking advantaged students,
> when SL does not want any of us from McNair even
> if we very close to the SL attendance area

McNair is further from South Lakes than the areas suggested to move in the current scenario.

Moving McNair to South Lakes would have worked against the study criteria.

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair is further from South Lakes than the areas
> suggested to move in the current scenario.
>
> Moving McNair to South Lakes would have worked
> against the study criteria.

Moving Navy to Oakton also works against the study criteria.

Restontian,
Do you live in Floris or McNair area? Have you checked the map before you claim the distance is further from McNair? If you check from the distance from the two elementary schools to the SLH, Floris is further away. If you check from the approximate center of each of the elementary school district, Floris is further away. To be fair, as the moved area is only the so-called Floris East, if you use the approximate center of "Floris East" and the center of "McNair East", I still cannot get the conclusion that McNair is further from SLH. PLEASE USE FACTS, and do not use false information to influence people.

As for "not creating new attendance island for Crossfield", is that right to create a new split feeder? Also, Crossfield is already feeding SLH.


Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNairluvSL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The current scenario involves sending the
> > neighborhoods closest to South Lakes to South
> > Lakes without creating new attendance islands
> > (like moving Crossfield would do.)
> >
> > It moves the least amount of students, and has
> the
> > least amount of domino effect of any scenario
> > discussed.
> >
> > It doesn't involved hand picking advantaged
> > students. It makes the most sense looking at
> the
> > map, the schools involved in the study, and the
> > criteria of the study.
> >
> > It does involve hand-picking advantaged
> students,
> > when SL does not want any of us from McNair
> even
> > if we very close to the SL attendance area
>
> McNair is further from South Lakes than the areas
> suggested to move in the current scenario.
>
> Moving McNair to South Lakes would have worked
> against the study criteria.

Moving Navy fulfills one criteria, that of reducing overcrowding at Chantilly.

Distance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restontian,
> Do you live in Floris or McNair area? Have you
> checked the map before you claim the distance is
> further from McNair? If you check from the
> distance from the two elementary schools to the
> SLH, Floris is further away. If you check from the
> approximate center of each of the elementary
> school district, Floris is further away. To be
> fair, as the moved area is only the so-called
> Floris East, if you use the approximate center of
> "Floris East" and the center of "McNair East", I
> still cannot get the conclusion that McNair is
> further from SLH. PLEASE USE FACTS, and do not use
> false information to influence people.
>

Please, let's at least call these areas what they really are "East Central McFloriHutchomine."

assessingSL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If that's the case....explain to me why McNair was
> not included, if it's not "handpicking"?, and
> don't BS me with the Title I excuse...

Did you have a scenario that moved McNair to South Lakes and met the eight criteria better than the current scenario? What option was that?

The original options which all moved McNair, all affected more children, more families, had more domino effect and increased the disparities in socio-economic balance between the schools in the study.

McNair's neighborhoods are further from South Lakes than the Floris neighborhoods included in the current scenario.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Living Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Our first hand knowledge is that there are so
> many
> > good kids graduated from Oakton and Westfield
> in
> > the neighborhood over the years. It takes years
> to
> > build a trust. One or two trips or tours to SL
> can
> > not compare to years of trust.
>
> If you came to my South Lakes neighborhood you
> would find many good kids graduated from South
> Lakes over the years too. I don't doubt that your
> neighborhood has good kids, and I expect the same
> respect from you.


You love your school and we love ours. And you know what? We are both victims here.

The study became an evil one When Langley and Madison were not included. Excluding Langley and Madison sent strong signal to people that the School Board thinks politics is more important than reasonable thinking, Sb members' political future is above thousands of people's lives and their values. The line is crossed right there. It does not matter which scenario wins or what communities are changed in the end, it is guaranteed to a political and unfair one.

If the SB's ill conceived plan goes through
1) Floris will have its community split up. Parents will be forced to send their kids to a school they perceived to be inferior. Their housing value will drop.
2) For SL, people from other communities will look for more negatives than positives. (They already did!) What's more important, SL will not get as many as advantaged students had the redistrict process been fair and square.

In the town hall meetings, one disadvantage kept popping up is "pitting communities against each other". And here we are. Arguing back forth day and night. I have to say I am one of the guilty ones. After being active on this discussion board for the past few days, it suddenly hits me that Reston people love their kids and school and I love mines. Then why are we arguing? We are just pieces on the SB's play board. I see no winners here.


(I am at work so my id has a W in it)

RealityCheck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> > I understand not wanting to leave
> > your current school but there is a ton of
> > enlightenment to be gained by opening up your
> > minds.
>
> Are you saying that a preference for Westfield,
> Chantilly, or Oakton over South Lakes is a sign of
> a general lack of enlightenment or a closed mind?


I read it as saying that resisting a needed redistricting, especially based on non-substatiated fears about a school is a sign of a closed mind.

Berdhuis Wrote:
> Moving Navy to Oakton also works against the study
> criteria.


Moving Navy to Oakton was a domino in the current scenario.

Did you have a scenario that met the criteria better and affected fewer students?

The criteria weren't rules, and the current scenario works to meet them better than any other I have seen.

Distance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restontian,
> Do you live in Floris or McNair area? Have you
> checked the map before you claim the distance is
> further from McNair? If you check from the
> distance from the two elementary schools to the
> SLH, Floris is further away. If you check from the
> approximate center of each of the elementary
> school district, Floris is further away. To be
> fair, as the moved area is only the so-called
> Floris East, if you use the approximate center of
> "Floris East" and the center of "McNair East", I
> still cannot get the conclusion that McNair is
> further from SLH. PLEASE USE FACTS, and do not use
> false information to influence people.
>

Have YOU actually looked at a map? Please do - No children LIVE in the area of McNair closest to South Lakes. It is a commercial zone...
Attachments:

Thank you LivingW for having an open mind and actually reading our posts. Good luck to you and please know that any children moving to SL will be well cared for.

I have to laugh at your post. I actually "live" a block away from the so called McNair/Floris area and they are separated by a street. So Old timer, you have no idea what you are taking about...because YOU live in Reston. Only people that actually live in this area can speak with authority, and YOU don't have it. And don't BS us with a map....it doesn't work that way. I cross the street from my house and I am in Floris district....I turn around, cross back and I am back in McNair.


Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Distance Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Restontian,
> > Do you live in Floris or McNair area? Have you
> > checked the map before you claim the distance
> is
> > further from McNair? If you check from the
> > distance from the two elementary schools to the
> > SLH, Floris is further away. If you check from
> the
> > approximate center of each of the elementary
> > school district, Floris is further away. To be
> > fair, as the moved area is only the so-called
> > Floris East, if you use the approximate center
> of
> > "Floris East" and the center of "McNair East",
> I
> > still cannot get the conclusion that McNair is
> > further from SLH. PLEASE USE FACTS, and do not
> use
> > false information to influence people.
> >
>
> Have YOU actually looked at a map? Please do - No
> children LIVE in the area of McNair closest to
> South Lakes. It is a commercial zone...

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you LivingW for having an open mind and
> actually reading our posts. Good luck to you and
> please know that any children moving to SL will be
> well cared for.


Good luck to you too. I hope SL will do well though my kids will not be there.

assessingSL:
-------------------------------------------------------
You are actually making our point. If McNair and Floris are both the same distance, but moving McNair works against one of the main study criteria, that of placing too many disadvantaged students in one school, and moving part of Floris helps fulfill the same criteria, then Floris is the school to move.

Distance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restontian,
> Do you live in Floris or McNair area? If you check from the
> distance from the two elementary schools to the
> SLH, Floris is further away. If you check from the
> approximate center of each of the elementary
> school district, Floris is further away. To be
> fair, as the moved area is only the so-called
> Floris East, if you use the approximate center of
> "Floris East" and the center of "McNair East", I
> still cannot get the conclusion that McNair is
> further from SLH.

The area we are discussing is the area moved in the current scenario -- not the elementary schools themselves.

You are right, it does look like a few streets in the McNair boundary are closer to SL than a few streets in the Floris area moving.

As you can guess by my posting name, I don't live in Floris or McNair -- but I've lived and driven in this area for a long time.

I did not see any option that moved McNair that did a better job of meeting the eight criteria, and impacted fewer students than the current scenario. Did you?

> As for "not creating new attendance island for
> Crossfield", is that right to create a new split
> feeder? Also, Crossfield is already feeding SLH.

I'm confused about what you are saying here.

Personally, I would have preferred to see the Crossfield split simply widened to send more streets to South Lakes in place of moving Floris.

Only people
> that actually live in this area can speak with
> authority, and YOU don't have it. And don't BS us
> with a map....it doesn't work that way. I cross
> the street from my house and I am in Floris
> district....I turn around, cross back and I am
> back in McNair.

And then you cross the other street and you are in Dogwood district and down the street is Fox Mill district. I do know the area very well in fact, since I've lived around here for over 40 years. I've lived here before your house was even built, I imagine.

I just drove the area the other day with my spouse to show how close all the areas are. I use businesses at the clock tower and am there easily once a week. And I checked out the new shopping center with the Harris Teeter and ate with the family at Moes.


I have friends whose kids go to Floris and they play RESTON sports. Herndon residents as well as Vienna residents also play Reston sports. Not all of South Lakes students live in Reston, while not all Oakton students live in Oakton or Westfield students live in Chantilly or Chantilly students live in Chantilly. South Lakes is not a RESTON school but a Fairfax County school as are all the others.

I also saw Floris and Chantilly car magnets on cars the other day at the RESTON Target. You are not that far from me if you indeed shop at Target as I do. A community is not determined necessarily by your address or your HOA but where you live, work, shop and play!


I'm not trying to BS you with a map, but show what I've said previously, much of Floris is not close to ANY of three schools - Herndon, McNair, or South Lakes. From a map, you are as close to South Lakes or closer to South Lakes than you are to Westfield. You don't have to send your kids to SL, you are free to do as you wish. But you can't argue that you are farther away.

The facilities staff and ultimately the school board have the responsibility to ensure that all children are receiving equal opportunities.

I've heard complaining about the proposed alternative scenario but have yet to hear ANY other solutions within the contraints of this study.

Please, offer up a better solution that satisfies the criteria.

You know what....enough of the criteria crap. Since I live in McNair and my kids are still small, I don't have anything to lose but wait at least 8 years. However,given the choice I would go to SL only because of the distance, not necessarily because it is a better school. And again, since I don't have anything
to lose (yet) I must say that handpicking students is not a good policy. I do think that Crossfield is closer to SL because I commute in that direction every day, and since the SB don't care about splitting communities...like they are doing to Floris, I would say do the same to Crossfield as well....fair is fair, right? and guess what? SL will have its "advantage" edge. Nice building, by the way.



assessingSL: -------------------------------------------------------
You are actually making our point. If McNair and Floris are both the same distance, but moving McNair works against one of the main study criteria, that of placing too many disadvantaged students in one school, and moving part of Floris helps fulfill the same criteria, then Floris is the school to move.

Restonian Wrote:

>
> I read it as saying that resisting a needed
> redistricting, especially based on
> non-substatiated fears about a school is a sign of
> a closed mind.


A more reasonable interpretation would be to recognize that 'need' is in the eye of the beholder - those who don't feel that they 'need' this redistricting are resisting it.

Noticing that the test scores are significantly lower hardly constitutes a 'non-substantiated fear.'

RealityCheck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restonian Wrote:
>
> >
> > I read it as saying that resisting a needed
> > redistricting, especially based on
> > non-substatiated fears about a school is a sign
> of
> > a closed mind.
>
>
> A more reasonable interpretation would be to
> recognize that 'need' is in the eye of the
> beholder - those who don't feel that they 'need'
> this redistricting are resisting it.
>
> Noticing that the test scores are significantly
> lower hardly constitutes a 'non-substantiated
> fear.'


But the test scores aren't "signicantly lower". So I see this as an unsubstantiated concern.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moving Navy fulfills one criteria, that of
> reducing overcrowding at Chantilly.

However..........with the modular, it is NOT overcrowded. And before you freak about the modular, let me give you an idea of what it looks like. It is a beautiful new permanent building that has new furniture, numerous bathrooms as well as heating and air conditioning as wireless technology access. Scenario five does not meet the criteria to keep kids within a close proximity either. So, let's just leave Navy right where they are and belong..........at Chantilly!

Restonian Wrote:

>
> McNair is further from South Lakes than the areas
> suggested to move in the current scenario.
>
> Moving McNair to South Lakes would have worked
> against the study criteria.


This is so untrue. McNair is just as close. Many of the McNair neighborhoods. Many of the wealthier McNair neighborhoods. Is it you? or Stu? who has access to the exact condo or apartment numbers that contained the disadvantaged contingent from McNair. Or was it just easier to hand-pick some other bulk from an overall "better" looking school? You can ramble all day about how virtuous this process was and how little the SL PTSA had to do with it. But by now it goes on deaf ears. The perception that SL and Stu went hand and hand to hand-pick the choice neighboorhoods will never be corrected outside of SL. I am curious what you know about McNair, other than the statistics you see that cause you to continuously parrot the SL PTSA? What do you know about Fox Mill and/or Floris other than the good statistics that show up on paper cause your mouth to drool?

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Distance Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Restontian,
> > Do you live in Floris or McNair area? If you
> check from the
> > distance from the two elementary schools to the
> > SLH, Floris is further away. If you check from
> the
> > approximate center of each of the elementary
> > school district, Floris is further away. To be
> > fair, as the moved area is only the so-called
> > Floris East, if you use the approximate center
> of
> > "Floris East" and the center of "McNair East",
> I
> > still cannot get the conclusion that McNair is
> > further from SLH.
>
> The area we are discussing is the area moved in
> the current scenario -- not the elementary schools
> themselves.
>
> You are right, it does look like a few streets in
> the McNair boundary are closer to SL than a few
> streets in the Floris area moving.
>
> As you can guess by my posting name, I don't live
> in Floris or McNair -- but I've lived and driven
> in this area for a long time.
>
> I did not see any option that moved McNair that
> did a better job of meeting the eight criteria,
> and impacted fewer students than the current
> scenario. Did you?
>
> > As for "not creating new attendance island for
> > Crossfield", is that right to create a new
> split
> > feeder? Also, Crossfield is already feeding SLH.
>
>
> I'm confused about what you are saying here.
>
> Personally, I would have preferred to see the
> Crossfield split simply widened to send more
> streets to South Lakes in place of moving Floris.


Why do you feel that moving Crossfield helps the overcrowding situation at Westfield? The Oakton pyramid is neither overcrowded or underenrolled. Why would you not expect that a school in an overcrowded area should not have to move? If one pyramid is overcrowded and another is underenrolled the solution seems obvious. Stop trying to throw other schools under the bus. What has happened to Fox Mill is disgusting. If more of Crossfield goes to SL where will the backfill come from? Should we just disrupt everyone so that Floris can be left alone? Furthermore and more importantly, why should any of us be moved when in the end it will not help the problem of a dying community in Reston? Making SL a magnet school is what makes sense in the long run, but of course if it makes sense, the SB isn't interested.

FedUpWithRD,

You have missed the point. This is no longer about capacity at Westfield or Chantilly. This is about filling South Lakes up with smart, advantaged kids who are hand-selected from somewhat neighboring schools (if you use the "sippy-cup map") who are also fortunate enough to shop at the Reston Target and Harris Teeter and eat at Moe's with all of the other Restonians. Which must mean these nice smart advantaged kids must really want to live in Reston and attend South Lakes. I wonder where the families who live in McNair shop and eat? I hope it is not at the Reston Target or the new Harris Teeter. That might mean that they are not as disadvantaged as some Restonians think.

>>>>of course, to paraphrase Stu, the politics just wasn't there.<<<

But the politics for redistricting is here now? In whose dream?

Why is the fact that South Lakes is under enrolled being brought up now? The school has been under enrolled for many years, and I have not heard of any complaints or concerns from South lakes parents prior to this boundary study.

It seems that school board members brought up the idea of a boundary study in 2003 at the time that the funding for Langley and Westfield additions were being approved. It seemed that the County felt it a prudent use of tax payer monies to spend $15,000,000 on the school additions at Westfield and Langley, rather than utilizing space at South Lakes. Now that the money is spent, it now appears that the SB has had a change of heart. Why now?

Why did the SB spend the $60,000,000 to renovate South lakes, without having a plan in place to utilize the new facilities? If they did have a plan in place, (boundary change), why was it not disclosed earlier? At least folks in the targeted neighborhoods would have had a chance to move before the boundary changes are set.

How can it be legal for a School Board to try and change "socio-economics" within a school? We do not live in a balanced “socio-economic” society. I assume that all of the good folks, who live in Reston, did the same research that we all do before deciding where to live, and what schooling they want for their children.

I always assumed that the SL parents selected their homes and communities because they felt that the South Lakes school was the best choice for their children, just as we chose to live in a community that once fed to Oakton HS, and then was changed 7 years ago into the Westfield HS.

http://www.arlingtonconnection.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=14732&paper=73&cat=106

If you read the article, it appears the Mr. Stu Gibson used to be a firm supporter of a person's right to purchase a home in a school district of their choosing.

Why were the South Lakes parents not pushing for some of the Langley children to be brought into their school back in 2003? Why have the South Lakes parents not been more vocal about the fact that Langley and Madison were left out of this current study?

I understand that sometimes things change, but the entire process to date has been so poorly presented, that I do not think that the majority of affected communities will ever come to believe that the SB has acted in good faith.

>>>>Furthermore and more importantly, why should any of us be moved when in the end it will not help the problem of a dying community in Reston? Making SL a magnet school is what makes sense in the long run, but of course if it makes sense, the SB isn't interested.<<<<

Since the school board doesn't care, perhaps the board of supervisors will care when they ask everyone to pay higher real estate taxes this year so that FCPS can get an additional $100 million in their $2.2 BILLION budget.

You are of course correct that this redistricting will not work. South Lakes should have been closed, just as Marshall should have been closed, years ago. There was no need for a $60 million renovation when the school only has 1,300 students. Those students could easily be absorbed by neighboring schools over the next 4 years. Same with Marshall. FCPS is sitting on a gold mine with that piece of property. But what do they care? The money continues to flow, from our pockets to their's. The board of supervisors is more than happy to raise our taxes and give it to the schools to continue to waste as they choose, including half empty schools, with $60 renovations, and big additions on schools while the schools next door sit half empty.

>>>I understand that sometimes things change, but the entire process to date has been so poorly presented, that I do not think that the majority of affected communities will ever come to believe that the SB has acted in good faith.<<<

If they had any sense, FCPS would realize THAT is their biggest problem. SO MUCH ill will has been created by this fiasco, it will be years, if not decades, before people believe anything that FCPS tells them. The reputation of our schools and their leaders has been hurt immeasurably. Reputation is everything and their's has been sullied. That won't be easy to overcome. They have lost the support of thousands of people. That sure won't help them when they ask the board of Supervisors for a tax increase so that they can get an additional $100 million this year.

You are so right....the process has been so tainted that both the SLPTA and Stu have lost credibility. No matter how much the SL community is trying to paint a rosy picture of SL, the reality is that it takes more than their word to convince a very skeptical population. Even if the affected communities go and "tour" the new and improve facilities, most people realize that SL is trying its hardest to sell a "tainted" product. Again, everything is about perception, and it will take SEVERAL years, even after metro comes to our area, to change people's minds. Bringing "advantage" kids will not make SL better, what it will bring is more choices, that's all. IB is a hard sell, and most parents WANT AP, and since it is a mute point, the affected communities will do the utmost to NOT send their kids to SL....what a shame!

I have been assessing SL and it is a hard sell folks....as a matter of fact, I am neither against nor pro this redistricting. However, reading the pros and cons of the various communities, it only gives me a bad taste in my mouth. I can see both sides of the equation, and neither gives in. It will take a real and "open" meeting with the powers that be...they better come up with some sincere explanation as what's on their minds. But then again, it is politics as usual.




Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is the fact that South Lakes is under enrolled
> being brought up now? The school has been under
> enrolled for many years, and I have not heard of
> any complaints or concerns from South lakes
> parents prior to this boundary study.
>
> It seems that school board members brought up the
> idea of a boundary study in 2003 at the time that
> the funding for Langley and Westfield additions
> were being approved. It seemed that the County
> felt it a prudent use of tax payer monies to spend
> $15,000,000 on the school additions at Westfield
> and Langley, rather than utilizing space at South
> Lakes. Now that the money is spent, it now appears
> that the SB has had a change of heart. Why now?
>
> Why did the SB spend the $60,000,000 to renovate
> South lakes, without having a plan in place to
> utilize the new facilities? If they did have a
> plan in place, (boundary change), why was it not
> disclosed earlier? At least folks in the targeted
> neighborhoods would have had a chance to move
> before the boundary changes are set.
>
> How can it be legal for a School Board to try and
> change "socio-economics" within a school? We do
> not live in a balanced “socio-economic” society. I
> assume that all of the good folks, who live in
> Reston, did the same research that we all do
> before deciding where to live, and what schooling
> they want for their children.
>
> I always assumed that the SL parents selected
> their homes and communities because they felt that
> the South Lakes school was the best choice for
> their children, just as we chose to live in a
> community that once fed to Oakton HS, and then was
> changed 7 years ago into the Westfield HS.
>
> http://www.arlingtonconnection.com/article.asp?ar
> chive=true&article=14732&paper=73&cat=106
>
> If you read the article, it appears the Mr. Stu
> Gibson used to be a firm supporter of a person's
> right to purchase a home in a school district of
> their choosing.
>
> Why were the South Lakes parents not pushing for
> some of the Langley children to be brought into
> their school back in 2003? Why have the South
> Lakes parents not been more vocal about the fact
> that Langley and Madison were left out of this
> current study?
>
> I understand that sometimes things change, but the
> entire process to date has been so poorly
> presented, that I do not think that the majority
> of affected communities will ever come to believe
> that the SB has acted in good faith.

for Restonian, SLVerity, OldTimer, etc...

Repating the mantra about meeting study criteria is a bit meaningless if the study criteria were created inappropriately. There's no compelling need to reduce enrollment at Westfield or Chantilly, little desire in those communities for that goal, and in fact the latest recommendation only reduces these schools by 8%, and that over four years. That's not going to materially affect extracurricular access for anybody. The "reduce overcrowding" goal was always a sham, apparently a reason to keep Langley out of the mix.

There's no need to move Floris. They're not particularly close to South Lakes (or any other school, sadly...). South Lakes doesn't need to be at more than 2000 students in order to offer more programs. If the interest in programs is proportional to the number of students, then 1800 vs. 2000 students makes only a negligable difference in terms of courses offered...most of the teachers will be needed to satisfy required and basic courses, and there will only be 10% more demand for specialized courses.

As I've stated here before, the closest students to South Lakes not already enrolled there go to Madison, including areas other than the Madison island. likewise, the closest students to Herndon not enrolled there go to Langley. Both Madison and Langley are over capacity, and have desirable demographics. A study that excludes them in nonsensical, regardless of whether its all you've been given.

I was surprised by the characterization that Reston doesn't exist in a meaningful way for redistricting, that its just part of the county. That goes against everything I've seen in fifteen years of living just past the edge of Reston. Reston IS a distinct community, the largest in the immediate area. Denying that seems a bit disingenuous. Of course people cross boundaries to shop and eat..."duh"..., but just try that with access to community services, homeowner regulations, some sports boundaries...schools are more like a community service than they are like a big box store or a restaurant.

The decline in enrollement at South Lakes accelerated after the decision to go IB. Not saying it was caused only by that, but its fact nonetheless, and very closely correlated in time. If the board and SLPTA were serious about helpin South Lakes be more like Oakton, Langley, etc, which seems to be the goal, then part of doing that is replace IB with AP. Otherwise, the burden of teaching IB classes regardles of enrollment size will always reduce opportunities. If the other manta for SL waiss equal opportunity for all students...then you should be keen to replace IB with AP to equalize opportunity.

>>>>The decline in enrollement at South Lakes accelerated after the decision to go IB. Not saying it was caused only by that, but its fact nonetheless, and very closely correlated in time. If the board and SLPTA were serious about helpin South Lakes be more like Oakton, Langley, etc, which seems to be the goal, then part of doing that is replace IB with AP. Otherwise, the burden of teaching IB classes regardles of enrollment size will always reduce opportunities. If the other manta for SL was equal opportunity for all students...then you should be keen to replace IB with AP to equalize opportunity.<<<

Of course, but SL PTSA has made it VERY clear that they will never allow that to happen. They are wedded to IB and will never let it go, no matter what the new parents to the community may desire. It's a shame, for all the students, but particularly low income students who may really need the college credits that they can earn through the mainstream AP program. The IB program will keep South Lakes chronically under enrolled, just as it has at the other schools. But I understand those students who are hoping to be accepted at the Sorbonne might find IB beneficial.

Nothing posted here will change my perceptions about SL. I live in East Floris and I am for sure will not send my kids to SL.

The entire process is so unfair and absurd. No matter what the final decision is, SB definitely failed it's mission.