Thank you, SLgirl917, for your description.

All of which reinforces what I keep saying. If you want IB, great; embrace it and make it work. But then don't complain about not having the courses offered in an FCPS AP high school. They have a totally different curriculum.

Forum Reader,
It seems that several of the South Lakes posters don't care about IB or AP classes, but want a better choice in gen ed class, like jewelry making, wood working and guitar lessons. Without out of boundary students forced into South Lakes, their sons and daughters will have to take guitar elsewhere and they may never improve their beading skill



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2007 12:29AM by Neen.

>I'm not talking about AP classes, but general education electives.<<<

Like what? Jewelry making and guitar lessons? People should be forced to go to a school they never wanted, so that your kids can improve their bead work and perhaps redecorate their bedrooms? Or learn how to draw animated cartoons? Perhaps they could take those electives elsewhere?

>>>the School Board could simply abandon its new-found conviction that high schools should host about 2,000 pupils.<<<

Of course that argument will be abandoned, whenever it is not needed. For instance, Westfield was fine at 3,100, just two years ago.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>the School Board could simply abandon its
> new-found conviction that high schools should host
> about 2,000 pupils.<<<
>
> Of course that argument will be abandoned,
> whenever it is not needed. For instance,
> Westfield was fine at 3,100, just two years ago.

Please, Mrs. Scrooge. Christmas is just once a year. Kind sir/madame....give it a rest just this once?

Hmmm...it strikes me that most of the posters on this board can take credit for making the schools better. This is so despite the rancor and disagreements, because if anything this board reflects the passion which so many have for the education of their children. Yes, there are excesses and differences in views, but our educational system would be in far better shape if the majority of parents (and students posting here, too) were as passionate and concerned as those posting seriously here.

A bit of context may be in order. Witness the latest series by the Washington Post on the DC schools - likely in my view to win numerous awards. At the most superficial level, the articles confirm the stereotypes about "those people" -- i.e., those living in DC - and point to some very hard and difficult truths - fragments of which have surfaced on this board. But at a deeper level, the articles reflect the significant distinction between mere intelligence and education. The former is nice to have, but the latter is indispensable in today's knowledge based world, and most become educated because they follow the people close to and around them. Fairfax has its problems - whether it be an insensitive bureaucracy, minority students that don't achieve as well as they should, a lack of local control, and so on - but they pale in comparison to those described in the DC schools, where the hallmark of so many students, teachers, parents and administrators is that of being uncaring and negligent. And ditto for another jurisdiction I just returned from visiting - Pinellas County, Florida, where a school system with 150,000 students manages to graduate only about 350 students each year prepared (in Fairfax County's definitional terms) for college work, and has a drop-out rate of 55% (and those statistics may be worse since dropout rates are the most contentious statistical measures in educational circles, bar none), with busing all over the place to no measurable gain. So the prevailing attitude ought to be to take what we have in Fairfax and make it better.

Well, in any event, time for a new 2008. And thanks to all for the discussion and information.

Question:
Given what I've read concerning the IB Diploma programme's demands of the host school curriculum and administration's orientation towards itself, how can a general education curriculum and support successfully coexist with IB under one roof?

My impression so far is that there will be a constant struggle for resources, thus denying both success according to their own advocates. I just don't understand the argument by some that South Lakes needs to increase its general education population. Isn't that contrary to the charter of the IB Diploma programme?

It seems pretty obvious that South Lakes would be more successful as exclusively an IB Magnet school.

And to all who advocate against this, claiming that such a development would create too much of a split between the curriculae - isn't that happening already?

The current low attendance does not allow for classes such as German 4. Contrary to what some have posted here, jewerly making isn't the concern but advance languages courses that require a specific number of students. Some of the classes have to be combined. For example a teacher might teach both German 3 and German 4 in the same session.

Hope that makes sense. I don't have a lot of details but that is my basic understanding from attending a PTSA meeting in the Fall.

Thurgood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Department of Justice website:
> > http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/edo/filecomp.htm
> >
> > "1. The EEOA prohibits the following practices
> at
> > the elementary and secondary school levels.
> >
> > ...d. Assignment to other than the school
> closest
> > to residence within the school district of
> > residence which results in greater segregation
> on
> > the basis of race, color, sex, or national
> > origin."
>
>
> And your point is what? The revised boundary
> scenario results in greater segregation (of whom)
> and so the Fox Mill/Floris "affluent" folks would
> be moved unlawfully? Are you joking? It's
> Christmas time. Not April Fools day.

Hostile? Fed govt language on assigning to closest schools from residences as opposed to bussing to get a less diverse school.

My post was NOT INSPIRED by Fox Mill/Floris...law addresses one of the fundamentals in this boundary study - who's included.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thurgood Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > taxpayer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The Department of Justice website:
> > > http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/edo/filecomp.htm
> > >
> > > "1. The EEOA prohibits the following
> practices
> > at
> > > the elementary and secondary school levels.
> > >
> > > ...d. Assignment to other than the school
> > closest
> > > to residence within the school district of
> > > residence which results in greater
> segregation
> > on
> > > the basis of race, color, sex, or national
> > > origin."
> >
> >
> > And your point is what? The revised boundary
> > scenario results in greater segregation (of
> whom)
> > and so the Fox Mill/Floris "affluent" folks
> would
> > be moved unlawfully? Are you joking? It's
> > Christmas time. Not April Fools day.
>
> Hostile? Fed govt language on assigning to
> closest schools from residences as opposed to
> bussing to get a less diverse school.
>
> My post was NOT INSPIRED by Fox Mill/Floris...law
> addresses one of the fundamentals in this boundary
> study - who's included.


Law prohibits assigning kids other than closest schools if results would be greater segregation. What is the alleged violation here? Options 2/3 in early round were a stretch...but now?

Public schools suck. Go private

SLParent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The current low attendance does not allow for
> classes such as German 4. Contrary to what some
> have posted here, jewerly making isn't the concern
> but advance languages courses that require a
> specific number of students. Some of the classes
> have to be combined. For example a teacher might
> teach both German 3 and German 4 in the same
> session.

Are the German 3 and 4, or any other foreign language courses IB SL or HL? If not, then I would view them as general education. Does South Lakes also offer IB German (SL or HL), or any other foreign language?

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLParent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The current low attendance does not allow for
> > classes such as German 4. Contrary to what
> some
> > have posted here, jewerly making isn't the
> concern
> > but advance languages courses that require a
> > specific number of students. Some of the
> classes
> > have to be combined. For example a teacher
> might
> > teach both German 3 and German 4 in the same
> > session.
>
> Are the German 3 and 4, or any other foreign
> language courses IB SL or HL? If not, then I would
> view them as general education. Does South Lakes
> also offer IB German (SL or HL), or any other
> foreign language?


I have a friend who takes IB German I. I think that the German teacher has both IB German I and II in the same room because of the low numbers, but I am not completely sure. For anyone who starts a language in middle school, they reach year 3 of the language as a sophomore. Then, they begin IB I of the language as juniors. I know that for French, IB is the only option after French 3 is completed. I'm pretty sure that German works the same way because there are even fewer German students than French. Spanish might have a Spanish 4 class, but I don't know for sure. For French (and I would assume the other two languages work the same way), you do not declare SL or HL until senior year. The two classes are taught in the same room at the higher level and as far as I know, the only time they are distinguished from each other is in the IB exam that is taken in May of senior year (they might also have different word count requirements on assignments, but I am not sure). I think we also have Latin at the IB level as well. The only other language is Japanese, which was just started this year, so everyone taking Japanese is in Japanese 1 as far as I know.

It isn't just the language classes that are affected by low enrollment. Last year, I signed up for Creative Writing since PE ends after sophomore year and I had a free elective, but I couldn't take the class because only 15 other people signed up to take it. Before I chose Creative Writing, my parents wanted me to take Theory of Knowledge (a class required for the IB Diploma) in school, but not enough people signed up to take the class in school, so next semester every junior in the full IB Diploma Program is going to have to take it after school.

Since not enough students signed up, Westfield didn't offer AP Comp Sci this year and has combined AP and regular language classes.

Westfield must be too small, too.



SLgirl917 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLParent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The current low attendance does not allow for
> > > classes such as German 4. Contrary to what
> > some
> > > have posted here, jewerly making isn't the
> > concern
> > > but advance languages courses that require a
> > > specific number of students. Some of the
> > classes
> > > have to be combined. For example a teacher
> > might
> > > teach both German 3 and German 4 in the same
> > > session.
> >
> > Are the German 3 and 4, or any other foreign
> > language courses IB SL or HL? If not, then I
> would
> > view them as general education. Does South
> Lakes
> > also offer IB German (SL or HL), or any other
> > foreign language?
>
>
> I have a friend who takes IB German I. I think
> that the German teacher has both IB German I and
> II in the same room because of the low numbers,
> but I am not completely sure. For anyone who
> starts a language in middle school, they reach
> year 3 of the language as a sophomore. Then, they
> begin IB I of the language as juniors. I know
> that for French, IB is the only option after
> French 3 is completed. I'm pretty sure that
> German works the same way because there are even
> fewer German students than French. Spanish might
> have a Spanish 4 class, but I don't know for sure.
> For French (and I would assume the other two
> languages work the same way), you do not declare
> SL or HL until senior year. The two classes are
> taught in the same room at the higher level and as
> far as I know, the only time they are
> distinguished from each other is in the IB exam
> that is taken in May of senior year (they might
> also have different word count requirements on
> assignments, but I am not sure). I think we also
> have Latin at the IB level as well. The only
> other language is Japanese, which was just started
> this year, so everyone taking Japanese is in
> Japanese 1 as far as I know.
>
> It isn't just the language classes that are
> affected by low enrollment. Last year, I signed
> up for Creative Writing since PE ends after
> sophomore year and I had a free elective, but I
> couldn't take the class because only 15 other
> people signed up to take it. Before I chose
> Creative Writing, my parents wanted me to take
> Theory of Knowledge (a class required for the IB
> Diploma) in school, but not enough people signed
> up to take the class in school, so next semester
> every junior in the full IB Diploma Program is
> going to have to take it after school.

Westfield also has only one German teacher.

SLgirl917, thank you for explaining some of the scheduling issues at South Lakes. I do not think South Lakes is unique in blending its SL and HL classes for foreign languages, at least in FCPS. I've heard the same is true at Stuart HS, for example.

As a student in some of the blended SL/HL classes, how do you think the teacher would do things differently if he/she had separate SL and HL classes?

Its not the blending of SL/HL classes that is a problem, she mentioned this to show that SL classes are really no easier than HL. The problem is the blending of multiple levels of language aka French 3 and 4 in the same class during the same period with the same teacher. Or in the case of Latin a couple years ago, 2, 3, and 4 all in the same class at the same time.

SLgirl917 Wrote:
----------------------------
> For anyone who starts a language in middle school, they reach
> year 3 of the language as a sophomore. Then, they
> begin IB I of the language as juniors. I know
> that for French, IB is the only option after
> French 3 is completed. I'm pretty sure that
> German works the same way because there are even
> fewer German students than French.

Thanks, SLgirl917, for such a thorough explanation. This helps. Do you observe that most students are ready to stop studying their foreign language at the '3' level, or do they want to continue to the '4' or IB I level and higher?

> It isn't just the language classes that are
> affected by low enrollment. Last year, I signed
> up for Creative Writing since PE ends after
> sophomore year and I had a free elective, but I
> couldn't take the class because only 15 other
> people signed up to take it.

Is the Creative Writing class part of the IB curriculum?

> Before I chose Creative Writing, my parents wanted me to take
> Theory of Knowledge (a class required for the IB
> Diploma) in school, but not enough people signed
> up to take the class in school, so next semester
> every junior in the full IB Diploma Program is
> going to have to take it after school.

Did the students vote to take Theory of Knowledge after school, or was this decided by the IB Coordinator? Also, do you observe that most students in South Lakes are interested in the IB Diploma program, or in getting IB Certificates?

nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its not the blending of SL/HL classes that is a
> problem, she mentioned this to show that SL
> classes are really no easier than HL. The problem
> is the blending of multiple levels of language aka
> French 3 and 4 in the same class during the same
> period with the same teacher. Or in the case of
> Latin a couple years ago, 2, 3, and 4 all in the
> same class at the same time.

I really don't think that Latin be used in an argument for why SL needs more students. Given that the IB Diploma requires 5 years of a modern language, the only surprise is that they could find enough 2-4 students to fill up a closet.

Frankly, the small number of Latin students is a better argument for getting rid of IB.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Do you observe that most
> students are ready to stop studying their foreign
> language at the '3' level, or do they want to
> continue to the '4' or IB I level and higher?

In the past (for French), I think that the people who could not handle IB French dropped out because there is only 1 IB French II class right now. This year, we have two classes of IB French I because most people continued on in French to the only option, and it is apparent in the speaking assignments that we do who can really understand the language and who is struggling with it. If there was the option of French 4, I think that the people who are struggling with it would have chosen it.

Instead, the people who understand the language better are reviewing grammar rules that they have already mastered, but the other students need it. The time would have been better spent for the more advanced group on enhancing vocabulary or something else, but our teacher needs to ensure that everyone will be prepared for the IB exam next year. Also, the people who are struggling and need the extra help are doing speaking assignments and getting graded on the IB rubric when they are not ready for the harder grading system, but the rest of the class needs to become familiar with the tasks later on for IB exams. In other words, I think both groups would benefit from a French 4 class so that their respective needs can be met better.


> Is the Creative Writing class part of the IB
> curriculum?

No, Creative Writing is not part of the IB curriculum. The IB Diploma requires six subject areas are taken at the IB level- English, Foreign Language, History, Math, Science, and an art (this can be music or theatre as well). I think that music students also need to take Music Theory to get IB credit for music as their art class. Because PE ends after sophomore year, I had an open elective. After I found out that I could not take Theory of Knowledge in school, I decided to use my extra elective to take Creative Writing, which is a general ed class, so anyone can take it. I would consider it to be a pretty basic elective, which was why I was surprised when my counselor told me that not enough people had signed up for it.


> Did the students vote to take Theory of Knowledge
> after school, or was this decided by the IB
> Coordinator? Also, do you observe that most
> students in South Lakes are interested in the IB
> Diploma program, or in getting IB Certificates?

When we initially signed up for classes for this school year (I think in February), everyone planning on doing the full IB Diploma was told that we were required to take Theory of Knowledge, but we had the choice to take it during school or once a week for three hours after school. Either way, the class is the 2nd semester for juniors and 1st semester for seniors. The people who chose to take the class in school were told by their counselors that they would sign us up and then see if there were enough people to have the class in school. I don't remember exactly when, but some time around March, my counselor gave me a pass out of class to see her and she said that not enough people had signed up for in school Theory of Knowledge, so we all have to take it after school and need to pick a different elective. That was when I chose Creative Writing, and shortly after that I was told that not enough people had signed up for it and that I needed to pick another elective.

>Also, do you observe that most
> students in South Lakes are interested in the IB
> Diploma program, or in getting IB Certificates?

From what I have seen in my classes, there are two groups of people: the ones who take all IB classes and the ones who take some IB classes. The ones who are in all IB classes are generally doing the IB Diploma. I can't really give an estimate on the number, but I can say that I see a lot of the same people each year and rarely meet anyone new in the IB classes from year to year. The extra requirements ar the Extended Essay, Theory of Knowledge, and CAS hours (Creativity, Action, Service- most IB students are fairly involved in afterschool activities, so the hours are not that much of a problem). I think what some people decide is that if they're taking the necessary classes anyway, they might as well meet the remaining requirements of the Diploma. The group of people who are in some IB classes seems to be a minority, but I would not say that not doing the full diploma affects the effort they put into the class because they still have to take the IB exam to get full credit for it.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or in the case of
> Latin a couple years ago, 2, 3, and 4 all in
> the same class at the same time.
>
> I really don't think that Latin be used in an
> argument for why SL needs more students. Given
> that the IB Diploma requires 5 years of a modern
> language, the only surprise is that they could
> find enough 2-4 students to fill up a closet.
>
> Frankly, the small number of Latin students is a
> better argument for getting rid of IB.

There are multiple sections of Latin 2 at SL this year.

I have used Latin for my children to make up for the lack of grammar and vocabulary instruction in English throughout FCPS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2007 09:45PM by Thomas More.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nope Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its not the blending of SL/HL classes that is a
> > problem, she mentioned this to show that SL
> > classes are really no easier than HL. The
> problem
> > is the blending of multiple levels of language
> aka
> > French 3 and 4 in the same class during the
> same
> > period with the same teacher. Or in the case of
> > Latin a couple years ago, 2, 3, and 4 all in
> the
> > same class at the same time.
>
> I really don't think that Latin be used in an
> argument for why SL needs more students. Given
> that the IB Diploma requires 5 years of a modern
> language, the only surprise is that they could
> find enough 2-4 students to fill up a closet.
>
> Frankly, the small number of Latin students is a
> better argument for getting rid of IB.

I really don't think that separating SL from HL would make that much of an impact, but the teachers might focus on certain aspects of the class differently. From what I've seen, the main differences are the word count requirements, and the HL class has an additional part of the IB exam (I think this is the case with History) or an extra assignment.

I can say that it would be really nice if we didn't have some of the multiple levels being blended- such as with Theatre. I am one of three IB Theatre students. IB Theatre has been mixed in the past with Theatre 3 and 4, but this year, the classes got even more mixed up. There are no Theatre 4 students this year, and with the blend of IB Theatre and Theatre 3 (which consists of students that our teacher allowed to skip Theatre 2), we have 6 people. To this group, the Theatre 2 class (consisting of maybe 10) and Tech (which was with Theatre 2 last year and now has maybe 5 people). This causes everyone to get behind because our teacher has so so many different groups to work with (I can tell from my assignment book from last year that the Theatre 2 class is very behind from where we were at this time last year).

As for Latin, we now have 7 classes of Latin total- enough that the county has gotten a new teacher to teach two classes at South Lakes as well as classes at other schools as well.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question:
> Given what I've read concerning the IB Diploma
> programme's demands of the host school curriculum
> and administration's orientation towards itself,
> how can a general education curriculum and support
> successfully coexist with IB under one roof?
>
> My impression so far is that there will be a
> constant struggle for resources, thus denying both
> success according to their own advocates. I just
> don't understand the argument by some that South
> Lakes needs to increase its general education
> population. Isn't that contrary to the charter of
> the IB Diploma programme?
>
> It seems pretty obvious that South Lakes would be
> more successful as exclusively an IB Magnet
> school.
>
> And to all who advocate against this, claiming
> that such a development would create too much of a
> split between the curriculae - isn't that
> happening already?

Well said. I don't see how more IB students wouldn't help South Lakes and the current IB students.

It sounds like South Lakes has more options than other schools. Many schools don't have even one latin teacher and I've never heard of so many levels of theatre at any school.

Perhaps those of you from South Lakes should focus on all the academic things that South Lakes has to offer. Parents care much more about academic excellence than they care about 'diversity'. Sell your school's academics!

i was in a french 3/4 at chantilly and it's considered a "crowded" school. language classes are based on how many sign up. doesn't matter how big or small the school is, if a class isn't popular they won't have it.

chsstudent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... language classes
> are based on how many sign up. doesn't matter how
> big or small the school is, if a class isn't
> popular they won't have it.

----
One of the points I keep trying to emphasize is that IB Diploma Candidates MUST be given the courses they need for their IB Diploma, regardless of how few sign up for these courses. Their sometimes preposterously small classes mean other classes, for "Regular Kids," sometimes must be "too large."

In addition, because IB Diploma Grads MUST take their selected classes, the entire school's Master Course Schedule MUST revolve around the needs of the few Diploma Candidates.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the points I keep trying to emphasize is
> that IB Diploma Candidates MUST be given the
> courses they need for their IB Diploma, regardless
> of how few sign up for these courses.

Doesn't what SLgirl917 say about the Theory of Knowledge class refute this to a degree? She did say that because not enough students signed up for it, that it was held at irregular hours and not even every semester.

I see vulnerability in keeping IB courses along with general education courses at South Lakes.

Question:
Would assigning students who might ordinarily take French/German/Spanish 4 into IB I be feasible? There would be no need to split a class with a 3/4 scheme, for example. Could this approach be done with other classes - English, History, etc.?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the points I keep trying to emphasize is
> that IB Diploma Candidates MUST be given the
> courses they need for their IB Diploma, regardless
> of how few sign up for these courses. Their
> sometimes preposterously small classes mean other
> classes, for "Regular Kids," sometimes must be
> "too large."
>
> In addition, because IB Diploma Grads MUST take
> their selected classes, the entire school's Master
> Course Schedule MUST revolve around the needs of
> the few Diploma Candidates.

Actually, we do have enough students interested in most of the IB classes that are taken at South Lakes. The only class that I take that does not have almost every seat in the room filled is Theatre, which is grouped with almost every other level of Theatre so that there are about 20 people in the room. I think the only IB class that this year that does not have a lot of students and isn't grouped with another level of the class (such as the IB German I and II classes in the same room) is IB Physics II, which has about 7 people. As far as I know, every other IB class has enough students that the individual classes are filled.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't what SLgirl917 say about the Theory of
> Knowledge class refute this to a degree? She did
> say that because not enough students signed up for
> it, that it was held at irregular hours and not
> even every semester.

Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer about the Theory of Knowledge requirements. Theory of Knowledge is a half year class and it must be taken in the junior and senior years (so 1 semester in junior year and 1 in senior year). The juniors take it in the second semester and the seniors in the first semester. It is required that the class is taken both years, but we were given the option of during or after school. Not enough people wanted to take it during school, so now everyone has to take it after school. The after school class meets once a week from 5-8pm.

Hope I was a little clearer.

> Question:
> Would assigning students who might ordinarily take
> French/German/Spanish 4 into IB I be feasible?
> There would be no need to split a class with a 3/4
> scheme, for example. Could this approach be done
> with other classes - English, History, etc.?

I'm not sure if I fully understand the question here. At South Lakes, for French (I do not know enough about the other languages to speak about those), we do have people who would ordinarily take French 4 in IB I because we do not have the option for French 4. As I said in one of my earlier posts, both the people who belong in French 4 and the people who belong in IB I would benefit from the option of French 4 because the needs of both groups would be better met (and people who aren't ready for IB speaking assessments won't be doing them and people who really understand the language won't have to work on grammar that they've already mastered).

SLgirl917, Are any HL courses other than IB Physics II not combined with the related SL courses?

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see vulnerability in keeping IB courses along
> with general education courses at South Lakes.
>
> Question:
> Would assigning students who might ordinarily take
> French/German/Spanish 4 into IB I be feasible?
> There would be no need to split a class with a 3/4
> scheme, for example. Could this approach be done
> with other classes - English, History, etc.?

This was the ignition point at Woodson, when on the first day of school in September 1999 a LOT of students who had signed up for ordinary French IV or Spanish IV found themselves forced into IB French or Spanish. Even worse, the seventy-seven juniors who had signed up for the pre-AP Calculus course found themselves instead in IB Math, a class for which only SEVEN students had signed up. This sacrifice of the many for the few led to the formation of the parent-teacher-student "Committee on Advanced Course Offerings."

One of the teachers on that committee, Jeff Yost, had come to Woodson specifically to teach IB math. That first year, 99-00, he ended up teaching one of those combined IB/regular courses that are being discussed. He stayed with Woodson even after Woodson voted IB out. He became an Asst Principal at Woodson for several years and, since the former Principal retired earlier this month on rather short notice, Jeff Yost has just become the Woodson Principal. He obviously knows and appreciates both programs - you may want to contact him with specific questions.

>>>I have used Latin for my children to make up for the lack of grammar and vocabulary instruction in English throughout FCPS.<<<

For most FCPS students their first foreign language class is their first introduction to grammar, parts of speech, verb conjugation, punctuation, etc. Lacking any background in grammar is what makes foreign languages so difficult for so many students. I was told that by a 7th grade GT teacher. She taught GT history and said most her students struggled with foreign language because they had no background in English grammar when they were supposed to learn grammar in another language.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2007 09:57PM by Neen.

SLgirl917 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One of the points I keep trying to emphasize is
> > that IB Diploma Candidates MUST be given the
> > courses they need for their IB Diploma,
> regardless
> > of how few sign up for these courses. Their
> > sometimes preposterously small classes mean
> other
> > classes, for "Regular Kids," sometimes must be
> > "too large."
> >
> > In addition, because IB Diploma Grads MUST take
> > their selected classes, the entire school's
> Master
> > Course Schedule MUST revolve around the needs
> of
> > the few Diploma Candidates.
>
> Actually, we do have enough students interested in
> most of the IB classes that are taken at South
> Lakes. The only class that I take that does not
> have almost every seat in the room filled is
> Theatre, which is grouped with almost every other
> level of Theatre so that there are about 20 people
> in the room. I think the only IB class that this
> year that does not have a lot of students and
> isn't grouped with another level of the class
> (such as the IB German I and II classes in the
> same room) is IB Physics II, which has about 7
> people. As far as I know, every other IB class
> has enough students that the individual classes
> are filled.


Then I am not quite understanding why South Lakes needs more students. What classes do you need more students for? Other than upper level theater classes?

SLgirl917 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer about the
> Theory of Knowledge requirements. Theory of
> Knowledge is a half year class and it must be
> taken in the junior and senior years (so 1
> semester in junior year and 1 in senior year).
> The juniors take it in the second semester and the
> seniors in the first semester.
>
> Hope I was a little clearer.

Yes, SLgirl917, that explains it well and corrects my thinking. Thank you.

> As I said in one of my
> earlier posts, both the people who belong in
> French 4 and the people who belong in IB I would
> benefit from the option of French 4 because the
> needs of both groups would be better met (and
> people who aren't ready for IB speaking
> assessments won't be doing them and people who
> really understand the language won't have to work
> on grammar that they've already mastered).

Well, well, doesn't it make sense then to strengthen and accelerate foreign language levels 1-3 in order to adequately prepare students for Foreign Language IB I? Perhaps this approach might obviate the need to maintain Foreign Language 4 and IB I simultaneously. And the same can be said for other courses - English, History, etc.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Question:
> Would assigning students who might ordinarily take
> French/German/Spanish 4 into IB I be feasible?
> There would be no need to split a class with a 3/4
> scheme, for example. Could this approach be done
> with other classes - English, History, etc.?

In general, I suspect you'd have a hard time doing combined classes between IB and non-IB classes given the difference in curricula. The IB curriculum is not aligned to the standard curriculum in the US. The lack of alignment makes it difficult to combine classes or for students to pick and choose higher and lower level classes to match a pupil's strengths and weaknesses. Yes, IB students can choose SL vs HL. But, Diploma candidates, can't , of course, choose "regular" track classes, and "regular" track students looking for some spot challenges have a real alignment problem.

For instance on History/Social Studies from http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/socstu/socstu.htm -

"High School History and Social Studies Program Overview
The four standard required courses include:

* World History and Geography I (9th grade)
from ancient times to 1500
* World History and Geography II (10th grade)
1500 to contemporary times
* Virginia and United States History (11th grade)
* Virginia and United States Government (12th grade)

Each of these courses is based upon a program of studies (POS) aligned with state and national standards. Virginia Standards of Learning SOL tests are administered in Social Studies classes at the end of grades 9, 10, and 11.

In IB schools, students enrolled in International Baccalaureate (IB) programs would complete the following four courses to meet the four-credit requirement: Pre-IB World History (9), Pre-IB Government (10), History of the Americas (11) and Theory of Knowledge (12)."

----------------------

Note that combined classes and spot challenges are much more feasible for an AP school since the standard AP classes align with the standard (and honors) required classes -

"In schools which offer Advanced Placement (AP) courses students can meet graduation requirements by enrolling in Advanced Placement (AP) United States History (11) and/or Advanced Placement (AP) Government and Politics (12)."

-----------------------

Given the alignment issues, it'd be interesting to look at whether there is more or less mixing of students between students with primarily regular programs and ones with primarily higher level programs at AP schools or at IB schools. I have a suspicion that we'd find more mixing at AP schools.

Note, this alignment problem may also be part of South Lakes' comparatively low "challenge" rating. While it's true IB naturally gets lower scores since HL classes are frequently multi-year, if it's harder to take a class or two because they don't fit in with the standard curriculum, maybe they lose some of the spot takers.

>>>>The IB curriculum is not aligned to the standard curriculum in the US.<<<

Yes. That's what makes it a niche program that should never be the main academic program in a non IB magnet school. FCPS has not done a good job in introducing this program to our students. It should have been set up in one or two schools, as a magnet, like it is in the rest of the US.

With all the problems with this program, and the expense, and the lack of alignment, it's ridiculous that FCPS keeps in so many schools, so many under enrolled schools. IB makes it VERY difficult for the other students and their choices for electives.

I'm new here, so I did not read all the posts in this thread. I see a lot of discussion on AP vs. IB. What about special education at the schools affected?

For those of you who have concerns about the redistricting, please remember to share your views with the board of supervisors. The BOS hopes to raise property taxes this year by a substantial amount. The largest part of their budget goes to the schools. If you think the schools are not using their $2.2 Billion in the most efficient ways, you need to let the Board of Supervisors know that. The school system is requesting an increase of additional $100 million and are sending out dire warnings of what will happen if they don't get it. FCPS needs lots of people praising the schools to the BOS so that the BOS will have an excuse to raise taxes. Without wide spread support for the schools, and their new budget, it will make it more difficult for them to raise taxes. If you do not like what is about to happen, tell the board of supervisors. They control the schools' purse strings. Make sure that your local rep, Kathy Hudgins or Mike Frye, and Gerry Connelly know exactly how you feel. Sign up to speak at every board of supervisors meeting. Only with enough negative publicity coming into the BOS about what FCPS is doing, will the BOS put pressure on FCPS to make it stop. The BOS can't raise taxes and the schools can't get their money, unless the public stops fussing about redistricting and how the schools are wasting their money. They need LOTS of support to raise taxes as much as they hope to raise them this year. This is very bad timing on the part of FCPS to schedule a redistricting at the same time the board of supervisors is hoping for a substantial tax rate increase. FCPS should have waited until next year when there will be no election of BOS or SChool board and no tax increases. BOS must raise taxes in 2008, so they can't raise them again in 2009.

Follow the money. Forget complaining to your school board rep, they want this redistricting to happen. Move up your complaints to the board of supervisors. They can't get their big tax increase if complaints about FCPS are great. Eventually they will put pressure on FCPS to make this problem go away, if enough people are noisy for an extended period.

>>>What about special education at the schools affected?<<<

What about it? All high schools offer special ed services. Is that what you meant?

I realize they all offer them, but what are their track records? What services are offered? I know in elementary schools, special education is understaffed, and students services can fall through the cracks. I would be interested to hear how South Lakes or Herndon does compared to Westfield.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>The IB curriculum is not aligned to the
> standard curriculum in the US.<<<
>
> Yes. That's what makes it a niche program that
> should never be the main academic program in a non
> IB magnet school. FCPS has not done a good job in
> introducing this program to our students. It
> should have been set up in one or two schools, as
> a magnet, like it is in the rest of the US.
>
> With all the problems with this program, and the
> expense, and the lack of alignment, it's
> ridiculous that FCPS keeps in so many schools, so
> many under enrolled schools. IB makes it VERY
> difficult for the other students and their choices
> for electives.

Agreed about electives. But my point is that it also affects the other students choices of core courses. They can't easily "play up" in a few core classes due to the alignment issues.

Note also, since Fairfax put it in the high needs schools, they put the program in the schools with the highest levels of transients, the people with the highest requirement for a standard curriculum so they can easily move in/out.

http://www.examiner.com/a-1123482~Fairfax_schools_trample_citizens__rights_again.html

>>>Since Fairfax put it in the high needs schools, they put the program in the schools with the highest levels of transients, the people with the highest requirement for a standard curriculum so they can easily move in/out.<<<

Yes, and those are the students who most need AP credits when they begin college, if they are to hope to finish college without huge debts. IB is real disservice to the students at these schools. It's really not fair to the low income kids who fill these schools to be stuck with this program.

This thread is a hard read, at best! Those of you that bought where you did for the schools your children do or will attend should have looked into the fact that the Fairfax County School Board has every right to make the boundary changes they are making. You can argue that the value of your home is going to plummet because of the changes, but that would be a hard sell in a downward spiraling real estate market. If you bought at the height of the real estate market, then you will be house poor, and some of the "less desirable" families could be the wealthier.
I have read many comments that are not meant to be racist that come across that way. I'm thrilled that my kids see everyone as a different shade of brown (even white people). They like people for who they are (wheter they are nice to them or share similar interests), not if their parents make more or less money. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that as a bad thing.
I have also read many posts that say..."When I moved here, I bought in such and such neighborhood so my children could go to this and that school." So, I pose the question to you: In what school district were you educated? Do you think you turned out ok? Did you have all the bells and whistles an education in Fairfax County can provide (no matter the school)? It is the parents who make education important. As long as they know this, they will succeed. My elementary school aged children know that college is the next step after high school, not enlisting in the military or getting a job (although these may be steps needed to attend college). I didn't graduate from high school in Fairfax County, nor is my undergraduate degree from a Virginia university, yet I still live and survive in Fairfax County (one of the wealthiest counties in the country), as do many of you.
The supposed adults here should quit dumping on kids. If your high school is changed, you will be moving with the precious community in which you purchased your home.
And yes my children are affected by the boundary change, and they could attend South Lakes, but if that is what the school board decides, they are moving with the friends they will have known for several years. And I am not slamming South Lakes with this statement, as I know a graduate of South Lakes who is very successful and a great role model to my children.
Bottom line...this is one of the best school systems in the country. You should be thankful that you are priveleged enough to have your children attend school here. Sure I have my preferences about what schools my children will attend, but at the end of the day, I am still their parent and their friends are still going to be their friends for the right reasons.

Voice of Reason - you make a number of excellent points, among them that no one should have a hard and fast reliance interest in any one school in Fairfax County given that it is a large government entity and their is an assumption of risk assumed when one purchases a home here that school boundaries may be changed. But there a few assumptions implicit in your note that are worth of challenge:

1. First, the race point. Aside from the obvious silly posts, it is difficult to ascribe racism to anyone because unfortunately both the achievement AND behavioral gaps correlate significantly to race. This is not to say that there are not itinerant exceptions - there are - but it is not a happy picture and people fearful of the negative externalities associated with such achievement and behavioral gaps are to a large extent rational and thus racism cannot be automatically imputed to those that merely want to discuss a very difficult issue.

2. Second, it is not race per se, either (notwithstanding the above, inasmuch as all right thinking people should treat people as individuals). What is really objectionable is an entitlement culture that infects some, but clearly not all of course, of the groups that give rise to concern. Bluntly put, there are a number of young people in homes in which parents don't parent well (at least not by the dominant Fairfax standard), and make and have made a number of choices that are deleterious (crime, out of wedlock births, etc.) and have numerous impacts on a community, including the schools. It is with those that adopt a culture of poverty, as opposed to those that merely happen to be poor, that right thinking people are concerned about. This is a significant distinction.


3. While college is a laudable goal for many, too many are opting for college (and particularly schools of lesser caliber when the studies are not rigorous), where the focus instead should be on achieving a high level of basic computational and reading skill and developing a trade or job skill. There are recent studies that reflect that those that join the military are better off economically and otherwise than those that struggle through lesser caliber schools merely in the pursuit of a credential (and I don't necessarily think military service is all that great, by the way, but the point is that practical skills are in many cases important). This statement, of course, appears a little strange to those posting on this board, but those on this board by and large have an IQ and level of education at least two standard deviations above the mean in the US and will be speaking from a far different aspirational context than most.

4. As I have said before, there is a backdrop of frustration at the political leanings and policies of those in charge. Reston and South Lakes High School are progressives dreams, with every benefit to those less fortunate available (it is the closest to Sweden in America), yet this socialist utopia has overseen, or some might assert has caused, a decline for over 15 years at its high school. Ironically, one of the common assertions made as to the school's recent improvement is its renewed focus on discipline, structure and accountability - a conservative ideal that will likely take a while to bear fruit - but many are frustrated at being asked to, in a sense, bail out yet another failed progressive program (and, yes, this is harsh, but so much of our social spending has inculcated entitlements, habits and reliance that not only has been a waste, they have generated tremendous negative returns on the investment made). People who make this point (and it is a contentious one because the social investments have been made with good intent and in some cases the programs have worked) are not evil or racist - they are merely making a point on a difficult and challenging issue. And their skepticism is warranted given the track record.

VoiceOfReason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Those of you
> that bought where you did for the schools your
> children do or will attend should have looked into
> the fact that the Fairfax County School Board has
> every right to make the boundary changes they are
> making.

Well, I know that now. But how many people with school age children or who will have them do you think understand this when they are buying a house? 75%? 50%? 10%?

I'm willing to bet it's less than 10%.

I certainly didn't know. However, the number one criteria when I bought was where my children would be attending school. I purchased in an area where I knew the school assistant principal and many parents and had talked to them about the school to ensure it was a good choice for me.

I don't think that a rule (i.e that permitting redistricting) should be thrown around lightly when most people probably aren't even aware of it and are making decisions based on where their children will attend school. Many people come from areas where they don't even have redistricting so they would never think to research or understand this.

VoiceOfReston,
No one has said there can't be any redistricting. But isn't it common sense to use redistricting as some sort of 'last choice'? For example, for Floris area experiencing 6/7 boundary changes in the past decade is just too much.

This redistricting sounds suspicious, because:
1) Schools that ARE over crowded are excluded
2) Communities belong to Reston are untouched
3) Communities closer to SLH are left out
4) Schools with poor performance are purposely taken out
5) Schools with good performance but more diversified population are chosen
6) Tax money spent on Westfield will be wasted
7) Tax money spent for Langley is questionable
8) Moving the so-called "advantaged" kids to SLH does not necesarily help the "needy" kids, by actually swing the resources away from them.
9) IB courses takes a lot of resources from the general non-IB population in SLH, which doesn't seem to change even with this boundary change.

It look like to me this redistricting just mark up the numbers on paper, so hopefully SLH's 'issues' will be diluted and appear to be self-correcting. It will really benefit the 'elite' IB students in SLH. Other than that, I don't see any benefit to the general population there.

VoiceOfReason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is a hard read, at best! Those of you
> that bought where you did for the schools your
> children do or will attend should have looked into
> the fact that the Fairfax County School Board has
> every right to make the boundary changes they are
> making. You can argue that the value of your home
> is going to plummet because of the changes, but
> that would be a hard sell in a downward spiraling
> real estate market. If you bought at the height of
> the real estate market, then you will be house
> poor, and some of the "less desirable" families
> could be the wealthier.
> I have read many comments that are not meant to be
> racist that come across that way. I'm thrilled
> that my kids see everyone as a different shade of
> brown (even white people). They like people for
> who they are (wheter they are nice to them or
> share similar interests), not if their parents
> make more or less money. Maybe I'm wrong, but I
> don't see that as a bad thing.
> I have also read many posts that say..."When I
> moved here, I bought in such and such neighborhood
> so my children could go to this and that school."
> So, I pose the question to you: In what school
> district were you educated? Do you think you
> turned out ok? Did you have all the bells and
> whistles an education in Fairfax County can
> provide (no matter the school)? It is the parents
> who make education important. As long as they know
> this, they will succeed. My elementary school aged
> children know that college is the next step after
> high school, not enlisting in the military or
> getting a job (although these may be steps needed
> to attend college). I didn't graduate from high
> school in Fairfax County, nor is my undergraduate
> degree from a Virginia university, yet I still
> live and survive in Fairfax County (one of the
> wealthiest counties in the country), as do many of
> you.
> The supposed adults here should quit dumping on
> kids. If your high school is changed, you will be
> moving with the precious community in which you
> purchased your home.
> And yes my children are affected by the boundary
> change, and they could attend South Lakes, but if
> that is what the school board decides, they are
> moving with the friends they will have known for
> several years. And I am not slamming South Lakes
> with this statement, as I know a graduate of South
> Lakes who is very successful and a great role
> model to my children.
> Bottom line...this is one of the best school
> systems in the country. You should be thankful
> that you are priveleged enough to have your
> children attend school here. Sure I have my
> preferences about what schools my children will
> attend, but at the end of the day, I am still
> their parent and their friends are still going to
> be their friends for the right reasons.

It seems that a lot of weight in the decision making process is placed on the free and reduced lunch program statistics. I am going to make a assumption here that the program like all well intentioned government programs is full of people who do not really even qualify for it in the first place. For example, I will make an assumption that most people in say the lawn care business do not really claim all the money they make on their taxes. Furthermore, I believe the lunch is $1.50 perday. Who truly cannot afford this that lives here in this very expensive cost of living area? Either make the lunch free to everyone or do away with it and then the statistic goes away as well. There is a lot at stake for a many people and to use this statistic to make any decisions does not seem right. Everyone of the briefings FFC puts out has this statistic before and after the proposed redistricing. I do not see the relevance of getting assistance with your lunch from the government and the learning process. It is discriminatory and degrading to the people who receive it that it is even posted.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3. While college is a laudable goal for many, too
> many are opting for college (and particularly
> schools of lesser caliber when the studies are not
> rigorous), where the focus instead should be on
> achieving a high level of basic computational and
> reading skill and developing a trade or job skill.
> There are recent studies that reflect that those
> that join the military are better off economically
> and otherwise than those that struggle through
> lesser caliber schools merely in the pursuit of a
> credential (and I don't necessarily think military
> service is all that great, by the way, but the
> point is that practical skills are in many cases
> important).

I agree with the observation that there should be more students directed towards vocational occupations. I don't know what South Lakes has to offer, but I remember in Oakton HS in the early-mid 80's there were Auto Mechanic classes being taught all day in the Auto Shop. Does that still exist anywhere? Anyway, it was a very popular program and entirely appropriate for those who did not want to focus on academia.

But Quantum, I must disagree with you on military service. I believe that military service is an excellent option for anyone who would want to undertake a mechanically oriented career AND even continue on to serious academic studies. I know many people who are my peers, including ancestry, who served during peace time or at war and began college after active duty service. They enjoyed great success and brought valuable skills (leadership and discipline being the primary ones) to their studies or workplaces. I also serve in the Navy Reserves and have found it invaluable in gaining employment in places like, oh, Fairfax County.

I know that Herndon HS has a Navy JROTC program, and from what I've learned it seems to be pretty successful. I'll bet South Lakes would benefit from a military program, too.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 3. While college is a laudable goal for many,
> too
> > many are opting for college (and particularly
> > schools of lesser caliber when the studies are
> not
> > rigorous), where the focus instead should be on
> > achieving a high level of basic computational
> and
> > reading skill and developing a trade or job
> skill.
> > There are recent studies that reflect that
> those
> > that join the military are better off
> economically
> > and otherwise than those that struggle through
> > lesser caliber schools merely in the pursuit of
> a
> > credential (and I don't necessarily think
> military
> > service is all that great, by the way, but the
> > point is that practical skills are in many
> cases
> > important).
>
> I agree with the observation that there should be
> more students directed towards vocational
> occupations. I don't know what South Lakes has to
> offer, but I remember in Oakton HS in the
> early-mid 80's there were Auto Mechanic classes
> being taught all day in the Auto Shop. Does that
> still exist anywhere? Anyway, it was a very
> popular program and entirely appropriate for those
> who did not want to focus on academia.
>
> But Quantum, I must disagree with you on military
> service. I believe that military service is an
> excellent option for anyone who would want to
> undertake a mechanically oriented career AND even
> continue on to serious academic studies. I know
> many people who are my peers, including ancestry,
> who served during peace time or at war and began
> college after active duty service. They enjoyed
> great success and brought valuable skills
> (leadership and discipline being the primary ones)
> to their studies or workplaces. I also serve in
> the Navy Reserves and have found it invaluable in
> gaining employment in places like, oh, Fairfax
> County.
>
> I know that Herndon HS has a Navy JROTC program,
> and from what I've learned it seems to be pretty
> successful. I'll bet South Lakes would benefit
> from a military program, too.


Hello Berdhuis:

Merry Christmas and the Happiest for the New Year!!

South Lakes does have a very good JROTC program, led by Sgt. Major (ret.) Weldon Thompson. Here is the website:

http://www.angelfire.com/va3/slhsjrotc/

It has been successful at involving kids from all backgrounds, some of whom are very bright but have limited financial resources to pursue higher education.

FYI: SLHS has placed a number of students at the service academies, e.g., South Lakes High School’s Class of 2006 sent 5 graduates: Naval Academy (2), the Air Force Academy (2), and West Point (1).

Thanks.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLgirl917, Are any HL courses other than IB
> Physics II not combined with the related SL
> courses?

As far as I know, SL and HL are taught in the same room with the same teacher at the higher level. I think that the IB Physics II class is actually all SL. Even though there is such a small number of students in the class, they are taught separately from the other classes (they are not mixed with anyone else but their teacher teaches other levels of Physics during other class periods). In IB theatre, we are mixed with other levels, but there are no HL students this year. I think that the first year of IB Biology is SL and for HL, the students take another year of it, but I don't know for sure. I hope that I've answered your question, but if I haven't, please tell me.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, well, doesn't it make sense then to
> strengthen and accelerate foreign language levels
> 1-3 in order to adequately prepare students for
> Foreign Language IB I? Perhaps this approach might
> obviate the need to maintain Foreign Language 4
> and IB I simultaneously. And the same can be said
> for other courses - English, History, etc.

I think that would work in theory for foreign language, but there's always going to be a group of students that struggles with the subject even if they have the best teacher in the world just like there are always going to be students having a hard time in math. That's why it would be nice if there was a general ed option for foreign language like there is with a lot of the other subjects. If I've misinterpreted anything here, please tell me, because I don't want to be annoying.

However, this is incorrect:

WestfieldDad wrote
-------------------------------------------------------
>In IB schools, students enrolled in International
>Baccalaureate (IB) programs would complete the
>following four courses to meet the four-credit
>requirement: Pre-IB World History (9), Pre-IB
>Government (10), History of the Americas (11) and
>Theory of Knowledge (12).

The IB History Sequence is the following:
9th grade- Pre-IB World History 2 (the class taken in sophomore year for non-IB students
10th grade- Pre-IB Government
11th grade- IB History of the Americas
12th grade- IB 20th Century world topics

Theory of Knowledge is essentially a required half-year elective that is taken both junior and senior year.

Just thought I'd clarify that.

SLgirl917 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Thanks. Note, your clarification was to content I quoted from the school system's curriculum web site. If the vicars can't keep it straight, one wonders how the laity can...

Anyway, your clarification doesn't really affect the point I was making, that the IB curriculum doesn't align well with the standard curriculum in the US. The alignment problems make it difficult for students in a non-IB track to add a few higher level classes at an IB school and for transient students.


>
> However, this is incorrect:
>
> WestfieldDad wrote
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >In IB schools, students enrolled in
> International
> >Baccalaureate (IB) programs would complete the
> >following four courses to meet the four-credit
> >requirement: Pre-IB World History (9), Pre-IB
> >Government (10), History of the Americas (11) and
>
> >Theory of Knowledge (12).
>
> The IB History Sequence is the following:
> 9th grade- Pre-IB World History 2 (the class taken
> in sophomore year for non-IB students
> 10th grade- Pre-IB Government
> 11th grade- IB History of the Americas
> 12th grade- IB 20th Century world topics
>
> Theory of Knowledge is essentially a required
> half-year elective that is taken both junior and
> senior year.
>
> Just thought I'd clarify that.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello Berdhuis:
>
> Merry Christmas and the Happiest for the New
> Year!!
>
> South Lakes does have a very good JROTC program,
> led by Sgt. Major (ret.) Weldon Thompson. Here is
> the website:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/va3/slhsjrotc/
>
> It has been successful at involving kids from all
> backgrounds, some of whom are very bright but have
> limited financial resources to pursue higher
> education.
>
> FYI: SLHS has placed a number of students at the
> service academies, e.g., South Lakes High School’s
> Class of 2006 sent 5 graduates: Naval Academy (2),
> the Air Force Academy (2), and West Point (1).
>
> Thanks.

Excellent post and link (just checked it out), Padre, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, too!

Out of curiosity, are there any JROTC Cadets in the IB Diploma program? This might have to get passed on to the students for an answer, unless, of course, you're the parent of such a child ;)

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLHS Padre Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hello Berdhuis:
> >
> > Merry Christmas and the Happiest for the New
> > Year!!
> >
> > South Lakes does have a very good JROTC
> program,
> > led by Sgt. Major (ret.) Weldon Thompson. Here
> is
> > the website:
> >
> > http://www.angelfire.com/va3/slhsjrotc/
> >
> > It has been successful at involving kids from
> all
> > backgrounds, some of whom are very bright but
> have
> > limited financial resources to pursue higher
> > education.
> >
> > FYI: SLHS has placed a number of students at
> the
> > service academies, e.g., South Lakes High
> School’s
> > Class of 2006 sent 5 graduates: Naval Academy
> (2),
> > the Air Force Academy (2), and West Point (1).
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> Excellent post and link (just checked it out),
> Padre, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to
> you, too!
>
> Out of curiosity, are there any JROTC Cadets in
> the IB Diploma program? This might have to get
> passed on to the students for an answer, unless,
> of course, you're the parent of such a child ;)


Thanks, but I need to correct the record: Major (ret.) Joe Schuler is now the JROTC leader now.

Not sure how many JROTC Cadets are currently Diploma candidates. I believe that at least two in the 06 grad. class were...but I'll also ask the kids.

South Lakes also still has auto shop vocational classes.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, your clarification doesn't really affect
> the point I was making, that the IB curriculum
> doesn't align well with the standard curriculum in
> the US. The alignment problems make it difficult
> for students in a non-IB track to add a few higher
> level classes at an IB school and for transient
> students.

I will say that it isn't the easiest thing to do, but it is possible to add IB classes before junior year begins. One of my friends was allowed to go from general ed history in 9th grade to pre-IB government and from English 9 to pre-IB English 10. I know some people who moved here as sophomores and they skipped World History and went straight to government. They are also required to take Biology at some point if they did not already, so I know two people who ended up in freshmen biology as sophomores and one who is taking IB Biology I this year as well as IB Physics I. Once the IB classes start in junior year, I don't know how someone would be able to come in as a senior and take the second part of the classes without having taken the first. I do acknowledge that entering the program in the senior year would be very difficult and beginning pre-IB classes as a sophomore isn't easy, but it's not unheard of.

Thought you all might find this of interest--a rebuttal to Dan Carney's opinion piece in the Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/26/AR2007122600722.html

Quantum said:
>>>It is with those that adopt a culture of poverty, as opposed to those that merely happen to be poor, that right thinking people are concerned about. This is a significant distinction.<<<

Yes, it is a significant distinction. Many of our Asian immigrants are passing through poverty. It is not a part of their culture. They may be poor when they first come here, but they work hard, study hard, and fairly quickly pass through poverty to the middle class and well beyond. The culture that has been stuck in poverty for decades, thanks to welfare and out of wedlock births, is the one that causes concern for people on this forum. It's not race, it's culture. While we are not guilty of racism, perhaps we are guilty of culturalism, a prejudiced against this entitlement culture of poverty and dependence on the government. Liberals, with their best of intentions, have established this culture of entitlement and dependence.

>>>As I have said before, there is a backdrop of frustration at the political leanings and policies of those in charge. Reston and South Lakes High School are progressives dreams, with every benefit to those less fortunate available (it is the closest to Sweden in America), yet this socialist utopia has overseen, or some might assert has caused, a decline for over 15 years at its high school. Ironically, one of the common assertions made as to the school's recent improvement is its renewed focus on discipline, structure and accountability - a conservative ideal that will likely take a while to bear fruit - but many are frustrated at being asked to, in a sense, bail out yet another failed progressive program (and, yes, this is harsh, but so much of our social spending has inculcated entitlements, habits and reliance that not only has been a waste, they have generated tremendous negative returns on the investment made). People who make this point (and it is a contentious one because the social investments have been made with good intent and in some cases the programs have worked) are not evil or racist - they are merely making a point on a difficult and challenging issue. And their skepticism is warranted given the track record.<<<<

Exactly! Very well said. People outside of South Lakes current boundaries strenuously object to their children having to pay for their failed liberal experiment. Their objections are warranted.

Being a parent that might be impacted by the potential boundary changes, I have been through many thoughts and emotions regarding accepting what might come. We love our current school and want to stay there and I also agree with the criticism directed at the process that has taken place by the school board. I do however agree South Lakes should have more students for various reasons but at the same time feel there should be accountability for the decline in it's reputation.

I have however taken a closer look at South Lakes and their people. I admit I didn't camp out in the projects but I have met many, many very sharp students and parents that I "didn't think existed" at South Lakes. Also, my past interactions at church and childrens activities etc have exposed me to many other South Lakes families and contributed to my positive impressions.

During my thought process I am curious what others think about the so-called "undesirable" element at other schools such as say Chantilly and Westfield. What is the difference between South Lakes poor performing kids and those at other schools? Doesn't Westfield have more of these kids but are they simply diluted by the large student population? What about Chantilly, I was shocked by the behavior of a large group of kids running around looking for a fight (with visiting students) after a football game this year. I swear if this was was at South Lakes it would be mentioned numerous times but it did give me a bad impression of some of those students at Chantilly.

What about test scores? If South Lakes scored 20 points higher on the SAT than Westfield and possibly a hair above Chantilly, would this make a difference in perception? Would it be perceived as a desirable school at that point? Certainly is more convenient to get to. Is South Lakes taking a beating because we don't want to go there or because it is truly a horrible place? Again, what if their avg. SAT's beat Westfield's after SouthLakes was fully populated? Thoughts?

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thought you all might find this of interest--a
> rebuttal to Dan Carney's opinion piece in the
> Post.
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic
> le/2007/12/26/AR2007122600722.html

Yes, the letter from Ron Phillips in Herndon was excellent. FCPS has trampled the democratic rights of the people. Mr. Phillips is so right when he says that our school board is a terrible example for our children. This process has been nothing like how democracy should work for the people.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/26/AR2007122600722_2.html

Curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Being a parent that might be impacted by the
> potential boundary changes, I have been through
> many thoughts and emotions regarding accepting
> what might come. We love our current school and
> want to stay there and I also agree with the
> criticism directed at the process that has taken
> place by the school board. I do however agree
> South Lakes should have more students for various
> reasons but at the same time feel there should be
> accountability for the decline in it's
> reputation.
>
> I have however taken a closer look at South Lakes
> and their people. I admit I didn't camp out in the
> projects but I have met many, many very sharp
> students and parents that I "didn't think existed"
> at South Lakes. Also, my past interactions at
> church and childrens activities etc have exposed
> me to many other South Lakes families and
> contributed to my positive impressions.
>
> During my thought process I am curious what others
> think about the so-called "undesirable" element at
> other schools such as say Chantilly and Westfield.
> What is the difference between South Lakes poor
> performing kids and those at other schools?
> Doesn't Westfield have more of these kids but are
> they simply diluted by the large student
> population? What about Chantilly, I was shocked by
> the behavior of a large group of kids running
> around looking for a fight (with visiting
> students) after a football game this year. I swear
> if this was was at South Lakes it would be
> mentioned numerous times but it did give me a bad
> impression of some of those students at
> Chantilly.
>
> What about test scores? If South Lakes scored 20
> points higher on the SAT than Westfield and
> possibly a hair above Chantilly, would this make a
> difference in perception? Would it be perceived as
> a desirable school at that point? Certainly is
> more convenient to get to. Is South Lakes taking a
> beating because we don't want to go there or
> because it is truly a horrible place? Again, what
> if their avg. SAT's beat Westfield's after
> SouthLakes was fully populated? Thoughts?

If they can force enough of Westfield's top students to go to South Lakes, then, yes, it's possible their SAT scores might increase. That is the major point of the redistricting, so I would hope it would raise the scores. But I'm not sure what your point is. It still won't change that the majority of parents want an AP program and not an IB program. Nor will it change the fact that parents want to send their children to the schools that they have chosen for them. Nor will change this horrible process that has completely shut out the input and desires of the people.

Neen,
At some point, and I don't when, probably when the final vote occurs, families will be looking for positives. It is a coping mechanism. I wasn't really making a point, I am posting my thoughts and asking others that might be impacted the same.

I know you are quick to throw darts but this really isn't directed at you as you don't have kids in school and aren't in an area that might be impacted.

Don't forget to sign up to speak on the boundaries. Anyone can sign up, beginning at 6:00 am next Friday, January 4th.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/PublicNews/8FC31C93401FEFCB85256F0E006EBE4D

You can also sign up to speak at any regular school board meeting.

As important, if not more important, speak to the board of Supervisors:
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/bosclerk/public.htm

And/or write to them:
https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/gov/bos/cforms/bc_feedback.asp

Let Connelly know how you feel about how FCPS spends your money. Let him know how you will NOT welcome tax increases so that the schools can spend even more of your money.
Then tell Cathy Hudgins how you feel:
https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/gov/bos/cforms/hm_feedback.asp

Curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen,
> At some point, and I don't when, probably when the
> final vote occurs, families will be looking for
> positives. It is a coping mechanism. I wasn't
> really making a point, I am posting my thoughts
> and asking others that might be impacted the
> same.
>
> I know you are quick to throw darts but this
> really isn't directed at you as you don't have
> kids in school and aren't in an area that might be
> impacted.


I have stopped reading Neen's posts b/c they are so predictably narrow-minded, repetitive and boring. Her mono-dimensional mantra about Reston about the "failed social experiment" oversimplifies Reston, as she has so often done about South Lakes, IB, "liberals", and anything else at which she throws pins.

Reston isn't the socialist, Ken Kesey-led experiment that she may have heard about as she pretended to check it out (in the 70s or 80s....who knows?). Instead, it has rich folks, poor folks, spooks, docs, lawyers, libertarians, and librarians.....it doesn't fit a mold, and it most certainly doesn't fit the Berkeley East stereotype that Neen and her comrades are sloggin'.

Same thing with South Lakes....Not the stereotype you'd love to believe, Neen.

So, when Curious offers a nuanced viewpoint with actual questions seeking a thoughtful response, the Neenster can't handle it. But she'll use it -- again -- for a platform to rant and to restate the same cookie-cutter blurts that she's been issuing since day one on this thread. Boring, irrelevant, and ultimately inconsequential.

Answer Curious' post, or let someone else talk for a change.

To Curious, I am convinced that if South Lakes' scores continue to rise, it's sports teams kicked butt, and even more kids went to top U's, West Point/Air Force, etc, or wherever, there would still be a lot of people who would say it's a gang-ridden school where good kids are doomed and Blackwater/Dyncorp provides security. Not true, but the truth doesn't fit the myopic.

Padre wrote:

"I have stopped reading Neen's posts b/c they are so predictably narrow-minded, repetitive and boring. Her mono-dimensional mantra about Reston about the "failed social experiment" oversimplifies Reston, as she has so often done about South Lakes, IB, "liberals", and anything else at which she throws pins."

______________________

Padre... you don't sound like a man. Throwing pins?? No man would say that.

Also.... now that you have stopped reading Nean's posts....(we all hope that wasn't a girly threat)..... we won't have to hear anymore of your derogatory comments 'posted' in her direction.

That's good.

Our son likes Oakton High School. He has friends there. He has played football for that school for two seasons. He doesn't want to move to South Lakes. As far as he is concerned he thinks the redistricting idea stinks.

My wife and I are worried as to how this unwelcome change will impact our son's high school learning. He wants to go to a popular college. We want him to be happy.

Like every child our son has only one shot to "get it right" as far as the college admission boards are concerned. And like any other child it took work for our son to assimilate into his high school. He does not want to do that again. How can I blame him.

Unfortunatly, I suspect the real green eyed monster in this most unhappy affair can be found in the planning of real estate development in western Fairfax County. Tax revenue trumped happy citizens, it seems, and now the school board must shuffle the children about to squeez maximium utility from existing schools.

I have compared the scores of both Oakton High School and South Lakes High School on the Fairfax County Public School's website.

Unfortunatly, South Lakes students score noticably below that of Oakton High School students. And yes, when we bought our home the primary criteria we used was elementary, middle, and high school scores. So I think that if our home is redistricted to South Lakes High School we will loose money on our primary investment. I think it is a reasonable conclusion. I am not happy.

While in elementary school, my son played football with children from the South Lakes school district through the county youth football leauge. The South Lakes children were, yes poorer, but friendly. The parents were kind. However, I was under the impression that, generally speaking, academics were not as important for these parents, or their children, as academics are for us.

Now my son is Amerasian so as far as diversity issues go our son is more of a "minority" than most of his peers --no matter what school he attends.

In sum, my son wants to stay at Oakton High School and we are of the mind that an unwelcome change to South Lakes will harm our son's interest in education. And yes, we are unhappy about the probable devaluation of our home that this redistricting may bring as this would do us an economic injury. We moved to Fox Mill Estates because we liked the schools. Why should we change?

Parent from Fox Mill,
It is not likely that your son will have to change schools. They have said that only current 8th graders will begin South Lakes next fall. All the students currently in high school will be able to stay where they are. If your son is already attending Oakton, he won't have to move to South Lakes.

You shouldn't have to change schools and you shouldn't have to lose value in your house either. It's just wrong. It's also wrong that they don't care what you think. :(

SLgirl917 wrote:


"I am a junior and I have been in the pre-IB classes and I am currently in the IB classes and I have noticed that no one seems to be answering the questions about pre-IB classes very accurately.

Pre-IB classes are generally taken only in the freshmen and sophomore years (however, I have a friend who is also a junior and is in Pre-IB Algebra II- it pretty much depends on when you take Algebra I for your math placement). From what I have read here, I would equate them with honors classes in AP schools- they are taken before the junior year when the college credit classes truely begin. At South Lakes, there is also the Middle Years Program, which begins in 7th grade at Langston Hughes and ends in 10th grade at South Lakes (students who did not go to Langston Hughes can begin the program in 9th grade, end in 10th grade and still receive the certificate for full completion). From my experiences with it, I think MYP is designed to prepare the students for the IB Diploma program that begins the next year. Instead of writing the 4,000 word exteded essay that is done for the IB Diploma, the students complete a Personal Project towards the end of 10th grade (they have about a year to do it). This project is fairly open-ended; the student is allowed to choose anything that they are interested in and I think the emphasis in the evaluation is the process, not the workload. Also, MYP assessments are integrated into all of the student's classes. It is required that one of the electives is a language and the other some form of art in order to qualify as having the appropriate classes for the MYP certificate.

The pre-IB classes are in History, Science, English, and Math. In the sophomore year, IB students take the first year of an IB science (most choose Chemistry, but some choose Physics). In order for a science class to count for the diploma, the student must take two years of it (I think the exception to this is Standard Level Biology, but everyone who was in pre-IB science took pre-IB Biology as Freshmen). The other class that can be taken IB in the sophomore year is Math, but that is only if they intend to take Higher Level math their senior year. Higher Level Math is only taken by students who take Algebra I in 7th grade (or go to summer school in order to finish Algebra II before their sophomore year).

As for Standard Level classes, I would by no means rank them as college prep classes for students not capable of the full IB Diploma. The way the Diploma program works is that you must take at least 3 higher level classes, but no more than 4. You must also take at least 6 IB classes to cover the subject areas (English, Foreign Language, History, Science, Math, Art- this can be music, art, or theatre) and Theory of Knowledge, which most students take after school- this class is 1 semester of each year. Since there are 6 required subject areas and the requirement is 3 or 4 Higher Level Classes, this means that 2 or 3 Standard Level classes are required. The Standard Level classes are still IB classes and are still above the intermediary college prep that was described in other posts. In fact, I know that French and Chemistry are taught at the Higher Level for everyone and Standard and Higher Level students are in the same room. The distinction between the two groups is in the test that they take (that is what I know based on what my French teacher said this year and my Chemistry teacher last year). I think that the other classes work the same way with the exceptions of the arts, but I do not know for sure. I take IB Theatre, so I can tell you that SL is taken as a junior and HL as a senior. As of now, the only difference between the two are word counts and performance requirements, but my teacher said that the requirements for IB Theatre will change next year.

. Honestly, the program that the student takes does not affect their success, it's what they make out of it. IB will not prevent anyone for achieving good test scores or put them at a disadvantage in college if the student is open to the program,is willing to learn from their teachers,and puts in the necessary work.

_____________________________________

WOW...........


You wrote:

"I hope that clarifies things for everyone about pre-IB and SL classes."

No, not at all.

Curious...actually writes the folliowing:


"Neen, At some point, and I don't when, probably when the final vote occurs, families will be looking for positives. It is a coping mechanism. I wasn't really making a point, I am posting my thoughts and asking others that might be impacted the same."
_______________________________


IT IS A COPYING MECHANISM?


Clearly, you are an idiot.

Never have I seen such LIARS as the South Lakes parents at this board.

NEVER....


It is sickening.

>> They have said that only current 8th graders will begin South Lakes next fall.

They always say during the town meetings and public hearings that a boundary change will only affect the next incoming class, that no students will have to transfer. That supresses the number of people communicating to the School Board and the BOS because the change is no longer an issue for their family.

But when the actual vote happens, this will be ammended to move all students except rising seniors. They will not leave 700-900 empty seats to be filled over 4 years. They will move the most students possible right away.

They've done this before, they will do it again.

Dear Parent from Fox Mill Estates,

The FCPS web site now has SAT scores by race for students in each high school. If you look at the average SAT scores of White students at South Lakes and Oakton HS, you will find that they are almost identical. About 1165.

The main difference between these two schools seems to be in the SAT scores of the other types of student subgroups. Asians at Oakton have higher SAT scores (about 1165) than at South Lakes (about 1050). Blacks at Oakton have higher SAT scores (about 950) than at South Lakes (911). Ditto for Hispanics (1075 vs. 1009). Even learning disabled and students on free meals have higher scores at Oakton HS than at South Lakes.


Parent from Fox Mill Estates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have compared the scores of both Oakton High
> School and South Lakes High School on the Fairfax
> County Public School's website.
>
> Unfortunatly, South Lakes students score noticably
> below that of Oakton High School students.

Madre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Curious...actually writes the folliowing:
>
>
> "Neen, At some point, and I don't when, probably
> when the final vote occurs, families will be
> looking for positives. It is a coping mechanism. I
> wasn't really making a point, I am posting my
> thoughts and asking others that might be impacted
> the same."
> _______________________________
>
>
> IT IS A COPYING MECHANISM?
>
>
> Clearly, you are an idiot.


Hey Madre. Speaka de English?

Don't Be Fooled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> They have said that only current 8th graders
> will begin South Lakes next fall.
>
> They always say during the town meetings and
> public hearings that a boundary change will only
> affect the next incoming class, that no students
> will have to transfer. That supresses the number
> of people communicating to the School Board and
> the BOS because the change is no longer an issue
> for their family.
>
> But when the actual vote happens, this will be
> ammended to move all students except rising
> seniors. They will not leave 700-900 empty seats
> to be filled over 4 years. They will move the most
> students possible right away.
>
> They've done this before, they will do it again.

Not picking a fight, just curious: can you cite a case where they've done this? Friends who are FCPS staff say that they *never* move kids from schools they're already at (and email from I received from FCPS in July when asked that specific question supports this, although obviously I can't take that to the bank). And reneging on such a recent commitment would seem likely to see the barbarians at the gates.

It's been my observation that a significant fraction of this whole discussion would be defused if they would commit to grandfathering -- obviously that wouldn't appease everyone, but I can't be the only parent whose only child is in high school, but who's been concerned and involved *because* there's been no such commitment.

But then, from a management perspective, this whole discussion has been mismanaged so badly that it's not even funny...

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Neen -

As I understand it, the current status of grandfathering is that there are no guarantees. The numbers staff is using are based on grandfathering all current students, but until the board acts, no one knows the official policy.

In the case of Parent from Fox Mill, since his son is a sophomore, it's very likely he'll be grandfathered, but were he a current freshman, it'd be less so, but still fairly likely.

> Parent from Fox Mill,
> It is not likely that your son will have to change
> schools. They have said that only current 8th
> graders will begin South Lakes next fall. All the
> students currently in high school will be able to
> stay where they are. If your son is already
> attending Oakton, he won't have to move to South
> Lakes.
>
> You shouldn't have to change schools and you
> shouldn't have to lose value in your house either.
> It's just wrong. It's also wrong that they don't
> care what you think. :(

>> Not picking a fight, just curious: can you cite a case where they've done this?

When there was a redistricting for the Rachel Carson opening, staff said that all middle school rising 8th graders could complete middle school where they started. When the school board voted, they moved rising 7th and 8th graders to Carson.

Thank you AB or IBMom for highlighting two points that I have been making on this board since I started posting:

1. Oakton's Peers at SL do just as well.
2. FRM students are better served at schools where they comprise a smaller percentage of the total population.

Your posts are always very reasoned and factual.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Parent from Fox Mill Estates,
>
> The FCPS web site now has SAT scores by race for
> students in each high school. If you look at the
> average SAT scores of White students at South
> Lakes and Oakton HS, you will find that they are
> almost identical. About 1165.
>
> The main difference between these two schools
> seems to be in the SAT scores of the other types
> of student subgroups. Asians at Oakton have
> higher SAT scores (about 1165) than at South Lakes
> (about 1050). Blacks at Oakton have higher SAT
> scores (about 950) than at South Lakes (911).
> Ditto for Hispanics (1075 vs. 1009). Even
> learning disabled and students on free meals have
> higher scores at Oakton HS than at South Lakes.
>
>
> Parent from Fox Mill Estates Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have compared the scores of both Oakton High
> > School and South Lakes High School on the
> Fairfax
> > County Public School's website.
> >
> > Unfortunatly, South Lakes students score
> noticably
> > below that of Oakton High School students.

Madre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never have I seen such LIARS as the South Lakes
> parents at this board.
>
> NEVER....
>
>
> It is sickening.

I see that Madre has adopted the 'Neensian' tactic of calling anyone who doesn't agree with her POV a liar. Not a very convincing argument.

Parent from Fox Mill Estates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My wife and I are worried as to how this unwelcome
> change will impact our son's high school learning.
> He wants to go to a popular college. We want him
> to be happy.
>
> Like every child our son has only one shot to "get
> it right" as far as the college admission boards
> are concerned. And like any other child it took
> work for our son to assimilate into his high
> school. He does not want to do that again. How
> can I blame him.
>

He would have just as much opportunity at SL or any other school to go to a 'popular' college. I don't think that should be a concern.

Don't Be Fooled Wrote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> Not picking a fight, just curious: can you cite
> a case where they've done this?
>
> When there was a redistricting for the Rachel
> Carson opening, staff said that all middle school
> rising 8th graders could complete middle school
> where they started. When the school board voted,
> they moved rising 7th and 8th graders to Carson.



I had heard this was because people WANTED to move to Rachel Carson. But maybe I heard incorrectly.

Interestingly, I've heard that a large faction of Navy that are to be moved from Chantilly are THRILLED to be going to Oakton. They just don't happen to post here.

So it's not all about how people don't want change and don't want their kids moved, they don't want them moved to South Lakes.

Old Timer:

Don't take that to the bank! The MAJORITY of Navy does not want to go to Oakton. We are happy at Chantilly and hope to stay.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see that Madre has adopted the 'Neensian' tactic
> of calling anyone who doesn't agree with her POV a
> liar. Not a very convincing argument.

Madre, aka 'BirdLove', repeats her approach - stumbles into the keyboard at 12:18am and types something irrelevant and insolent. She falls into a stupor for an hour and half and types something else irrelevant and misspelled, falls into another stupor for an hour and types her swan song for the night, again, something irrelevant, non-informative and non-constructive.

Madre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You wrote:
>
> "I hope that clarifies things for everyone about
> pre-IB and SL classes."
>
> No, not at all.

Madre, I'm sorry if I didn't help you. If you have any specific questions about what I wrote, I'd be happy to answer them.

Curious, I think that you have some good points in your post. South Lakes isn't a horrible place and it wouldn't be taking this kind of a beating if there wasn't so much opposition in going there. That's why I started posting on here to begin with- so that I could provide information about the real South Lakes.

There is a difference in who gets to remain behind when a new school opens vs when a simple redistricting between currently existing schools occurs. When South County boundaries were set in '05 for the 05-06 AY, 7-11th graders were moved from Hayfield. 2 years later during the '07 redistricting process, rising 7th-9th graders were sent back to Hayfield for the 07-08 AY. If you were in 9th grade or above in 06-07, you can stay at SC even if your neighborhood was sent back.

APorIBMom -

These results are about what I'd expect.

Most of the white and asian kids are from feeder areas of South Lakes that are as "advantaged", or nearly so, as most of Oakton. A high percentage of the black and hispanic kids are from areas of South Lakes that are very high needs. That's much less true of Oakton.

If the schools published numbers that partitioned by combined FRL and race, I suspect you'd find that most of the differential would be accounted for. Below I try to give some breakouts that indicate just how segregated and high needs parts of South Lakes feeding areas are.

On advantaged vs disadvantaged areas, here are the stats at the feeder elementary school levels (leaving out the "Other" category) -

School White Asian Hispanic Black Limit English FRL Mobility
Dogwood 15.08 12.20 48.81 17.80 40.68 63.73 31.58
Forest Edge* 47.54 20.77 9.60 14.89 17.89 24.97 16.08
Hunters Woods* 50.92 21.84 6.84 12.24 10.00 14.69 8.42
Lake Anne 35.50 10.69 21.95 19.66 16.60 31.68 24.41
Sunrise Valley* 65.84 19.66 3.44 3.05 6.30 4.39 6.90
Terraset 39.29 6.80 21.16 25.94 17.13 35.52 15.22

Below, I adjust the high impact numbers for the schools with GT centers by assuming 20% of the kids are from the base school and assume 100% of the GT kids are English speakers, not on FRL, and don't move (reasonable assumptions given the demographics of GT kids). AdjHI = HI * (100 * (1/(100 - (%GT * .8))))

School Limited English FRL Mobility
Dogwood 40.68 63.73 31.58
Forest Edge* 23.90 33.36 21.46
Hunters Woods* 13.90 20.43 11.71
Lake Anne 16.60 31.68 24.41
Sunrise Valley* 8.60 5.73 9.42
Terraset 17.13 35.52 15.22

Note, if you looked at lower granularity than this, e.g. removed Polo Fields from Dogwood, you'd probably get 80% FRL for the rest of Dogwood.

For the Oakton feeders, you get -

School White Asian Hispanic Black Limited English FRL Mobility
Crossfield 75.56 14.38 4.05 2.09 6.14 1.05 6.84
Fox Mill 62.15 17.96 3.87 2.49 9.94 4.56 5.36
Mosby Woods* 36.31 28.98 14.65 13.22 25.48 30.89 15.88
Navy 62.19 23.78 4.52 3.92 12.13 3.69 8.00
Oakton 66.30 17.81 5.88 3.18 17.81 11.13 11.13
Waples Mill 66.94 19.31 4.98 2.37 12.44 4.03 10.79

Adjusting again -

School Limited English FRL Mobility
Crossfield 6.14 1.05 6.84
Fox Mill 9.94 4.56 5.36
Mosby Woods* 32.00 38.80 19.95
Navy 12.13 3.69 8.00
Oakton 17.81 11.13 11.13
Waples Mill 12.44 4.03 10.79


An additional point -

As long as there are no "islands" made by pulling out high needs ESes feeding South Lakes, there's not much that can be done to affect the general SL demographics. The high needs areas are all fairly close to SL and far from the other high schools.

Sure, you can add another school or school and a half that look just like Sunrise Valley - Fox Mill, whatever Northeast Floris is, ..., to make the kids/parents at Sunrise happier and the top line numbers (SATs, etc.) look better, but there are simply about 500 or so kids at South Lakes that are very high needs, fairly transient, etc who are not going away. This redistricting simply won't help them, and may even make it worse as the school pays less attention to them given the demands of new large group of extremely unhappy advantaged parents in the administration's face.






APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Parent from Fox Mill Estates,
>
> The FCPS web site now has SAT scores by race for
> students in each high school. If you look at the
> average SAT scores of White students at South
> Lakes and Oakton HS, you will find that they are
> almost identical. About 1165.
>
> The main difference between these two schools
> seems to be in the SAT scores of the other types
> of student subgroups. Asians at Oakton have
> higher SAT scores (about 1165) than at South Lakes
> (about 1050). Blacks at Oakton have higher SAT
> scores (about 950) than at South Lakes (911).
> Ditto for Hispanics (1075 vs. 1009). Even
> learning disabled and students on free meals have
> higher scores at Oakton HS than at South Lakes.
>
>
> Parent from Fox Mill Estates Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have compared the scores of both Oakton High
> > School and South Lakes High School on the
> Fairfax
> > County Public School's website.
> >
> > Unfortunatly, South Lakes students score
> noticably
> > below that of Oakton High School students.

SLgirl917,

I have nothing at all to do with this controversy, but I just wanted to say that your writing is SUPERB. Kudos to you and to the South Lakes Creative Writing teachers!

You write much better than most of the adults here, myself included. And certainly better than most of their stupid ass kids, most of whom probably couldn't construct a coherent sentence if their ipods depended on it!

You're living proof that smart kids can excel anywhere*!

(* not dissing SL, I know nothing about the school other than the highly suspect crap I've read here)

No one willingly will want to go to South Lakes if they have an option of going to Oakton. Oakton is in the top 100 schools in US.
The school board has to force some communities into South Lakes. This entire discussion is about to choose the losers. The influential communities of Langley and Madison were smart and bought their way out of the study before it even began. The rest are slugging out the numbers. For what? SL is not going to become good by renovation of redistricting. This is a self defeating approach. The SL PTA said they want the 700 students to be "advantaged" ones. How short sighted they can be. If these 700 students come from advantaged families, their families will do every thing in their power to provide a good education for their kids. That would mean getting the hell out of South Lakes - either pupil place out of south lakes or move to other school areas that have good AP courses. These "advantaged" families moved into houses only after looking at the schools and their course offerings. If these school board socialists think they can force us to send our kids to SL, they are sadly mistaken. Thank god we live in USA where we are truely free. These advantaged families will simply move to a neighbourhood that still is in Oakton as they will have the financial resources to do so. The SB can force a boundary change, but they will never get these Kids in SL for their social engineering experiment.
Sadly the only way SL can increase enrollment without offering better educational oppurtunities, is to go after the disadvantaged kids, for whom moving out of the new South Lakes boundary might not be a financially viable option. If the school board was really interested in the educational needs of the South Lakes students, they should have spent the 50 million in expanding the capacity at high performing adjacent schools, placed the SL students to these surrounding Langley and Madison schools and then shut down SL. Instead they sunk 50 million in a failing school where no one wants to go, and are now trying to find the weakest folks who can be forced into SL. Basically trying to cover up their 50 million blunder
And as for the IB supporters, they should look at the world map - they will find Reston is in the USA not in Europe.

While driving on Hunter Mill Road today, I noticed signs along the road that said something like "redistricting is a dream come true for Hunter Mill developers, attend the meeting at Westfield". This of course is in the Madison Island area. How does it benefit developers if this area goes to SLHS as opposed to Madison?

Curious,
the developers are going to benifit as all families with school going kids have to move now. The madison island has a upper middle class demographic. These folks can afford to move and will move. These folks are not going to send their kids to failing schools. The demand for housing in the other untouched school districts will grow.

So what comes of this land? What is it developed into? If housing, then more kids, right? There are some very expensive newer houses in this area.

How does it turn out to a negative outcome?

Immediate Settlement! (Of course, we only pay 50 cents on the dollar..TOPS!)

I just ordered 500 more signs....where is this "madison island" anyhow?

GPS coordinates greatly appreciated!

SLHS Padre - let's face it - Reston is indeed as close to a socialist paradigm as this country obtains, except that I would concede that significant segments of the benefits and programs offered are voluntary in nature - a good thing - inasmuch as such programs can provide benefit independent from government. And Reston does the socialist thing exceedingly well - which makes sense because it lurks within the protective cloak of the federal government with very little unemployment and lots of opportunity.

This is not to beat upon on the socialist nature of Reston - as I said - some of it is voluntary, and it has its own sense of community. But Reston calls into question the efficacy of social programs (or at least most of them) - it has mixed housing, tutors in the schools galore, Head Start for all that want it - social programs of most every stripe - and yet, inexplicably, the achievement and behavioral gaps amongst and between certain groups still remain. In theory, such groups should prosper with all of the advantages Reston offers. And like it or not, some of the resistance that some people are having to the South Lakes experience is that some believe that they are being asked to bail out yet another liberal experiment gone wrong. I am not sure that is entirely fair, or even accurate, although those that lorded over the previous principal and associated declining scores seemed to ascribe to the the typical liberal shibboleths, while scores and behavior declined. The point being is that there is something real to these perceptions, and wise people ought to be mindful of them.

Curious,

Whenever there people have to make transactions under duress of any sort, in any market, the market forces take a back seat. e.g. What $$ amount would one be willing to pay to ensure the safety and good education for thier kids? How can one put a price on the constant mental strain of knowing your kids are in a voilent school environment ? In these cases folks are willing to sell at huge losses, to move. The developers will scoop up these deals and then later sell them to people who do not have schools as their primary concern - maybe they dont have school age kids. After the redistricting losers are decided by the school board, there will a gradual migration of upper middle class families out of the new South Lakes Boundaries into other areas. There is money to be make by the developers, brokers who are in the industry of buying and selling real estate. Nothing wrong in it. The market has to now re-price all these neighbourhoods downwards to adjust to the fact that they are now in South Lakes District. This is nothing new. Look at the current South Lakes boundaries and its migration of upper middle class families out of South Lakes - they call it the flight of white students out of South Lakes.
Of course only the affluent can afford to move, so SL will get some initial boost in numbers. But it will not last, as no new "advantaged" families will move into the new South Lakes Boundaries.

Westfield Dad,

I do not disagree with your assessment that "high needs" students may not benefit from redistricting that increases the percentage of above average students at South Lakes. In fact, SAT data by race from West Potomac HS and Mt. Vernon HS arguably support your conclusion.

However, South Lakes can and hopefully will do more for its strong students if there are more of them. South Lakes students posting here generally have not complained about the combined SL/HL classes, cancelled classes, after-school classes, etc. Maybe that's because that's all they've seen. But if I were SLgirl917's parent, I would be complaining on her behalf.

A teacher at another IB school that combines SL and HL classes acknowledged that she was less able to challenge HL students in combined SL/HL classes. HL students who might have earned a 6 or 7 in an HL-only class ended up with 4s or 5s, because the teacher had to spend more time on the basics, etc.

Conversely, I have heard some parents complain that the IB SL classes are too hard for many good students. Perhaps there would be fewer complaints along those lines if IB teachers had no HL students in their SL classes.


WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom -
>
there
> are simply about 500 or so kids at South Lakes
> that are very high needs, fairly transient, etc
> who are not going away. This redistricting simply
> won't help them, and may even make it worse as the
> school pays less attention to them given the
> demands of new large group of extremely unhappy
> advantaged parents in the administration's face.

Whoa....you aren't moving anywhere. You've been using your lovely home as a piggy bank for years. Remember the his and hers H2s?

You're upside down, bub, your HELOC is MAXED out.

Even if you are the rare bird that is NOT upside down on your mortgage(s), why not just send Biff to private school? While it IS expensive, it will be much less expensive than the loss you WILL take if you try to unload your McMansion in this market!

unpleasant_facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Curious,
>
> Whenever there people have to make transactions
> under duress of any sort, in any market, the
> market forces take a back seat. e.g. What $$
> amount would one be willing to pay to ensure the
> safety and good education for thier kids? How can
> one put a price on the constant mental strain of
> knowing your kids are in a voilent school
> environment ? In these cases folks are willing to
> sell at huge losses, to move. The developers will
> scoop up these deals and then later sell them to
> people who do not have schools as their primary
> concern - maybe they dont have school age kids.
> After the redistricting losers are decided by the
> school board, there will a gradual migration of
> upper middle class families out of the new South
> Lakes Boundaries into other areas. There is money
> to be make by the developers, brokers who are in
> the industry of buying and selling real estate.
> Nothing wrong in it. The market has to now
> re-price all these neighbourhoods downwards to
> adjust to the fact that they are now in South
> Lakes District. This is nothing new. Look at the
> current South Lakes boundaries and its migration
> of upper middle class families out of South Lakes
> - they call it the flight of white students out of
> South Lakes.
> Of course only the affluent can afford to move, so
> SL will get some initial boost in numbers. But it
> will not last, as no new "advantaged" families
> will move into the new South Lakes Boundaries.


This is so true!

South Lakes will never get the student population they want, ultimately the upper middle class will have moved out and no new upper middle class families will move into the area. The School Board and South Lakes should find another way to cope with the decline of “advantage students” at their school.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLHS Padre - let's face it - Reston is indeed as
> close to a socialist paradigm as this country
> obtains, except that I would concede that
> significant segments of the benefits and programs
W> offered are voluntary in nature - a good thing -
> inasmuch as such programs can provide benefit
> independent from government. And Reston does the
> socialist thing exceedingly well - which makes
> sense because it lurks within the protective cloak
> of the federal government with very little
> unemployment and lots of opportunity.
>
> This is not to beat upon on the socialist nature
> of Reston - as I said - some of it is voluntary,
> and it has its own sense of community. But Reston
> calls into question the efficacy of social
> programs (or at least most of them) - it has mixed
> housing, tutors in the schools galore, Head Start
> for all that want it - social programs of most
> every stripe - and yet, inexplicably, the
> achievement and behavioral gaps amongst and
> between certain groups still remain. In theory,
> such groups should prosper with all of the
> advantages Reston offers. And like it or not, some
> of the resistance that some people are having to
> the South Lakes experience is that some believe
> that they are being asked to bail out yet another
> liberal experiment gone wrong. I am not sure that
> is entirely fair, or even accurate, although those
> that lorded over the previous principal and
> associated declining scores seemed to ascribe to
> the the typical liberal shibboleths, while scores
> and behavior declined. The point being is that
> there is something real to these perceptions, and
> wise people ought to be mindful of them.


Quantum:

I can agree with your first point, if the operative term is that Reston is closer to a socialist model than other NOVA communities. But it still leaves it on the "right' side of any spectrum, on a global scale. Far from the Swedish model that you have posited, and light years from socialist societies in Latin America, Eastern Europe/Eurasia, etc.

Old/original Restonians lament how far Reston has "strayed" from the original model, and that -- to me -- shows that, while it may be a community with more "socially conscious" goals and programs than other neighboring communities, it hardly fits the stereotype of a socialistic, koombiyah chanting commune. Far too many of my friends and neighbors chortle at the concept that they -- entrepreneurial, IT, intel/DOD/defense contractor, Republicans, libertarians, or whatever -- are part of such a stereotype. They know better and they are a sizeable part of the community, if not the significant majority. That is the reality.

As I said earlier, same point about SLHS. Stereotypes distort the current reality. You were and presumbably still are an athlete. I always tell my kids that when you start a new team or a new job, hustle as hard as possible at the beginning, b/c that image will establish the prism through which the coach or boss will view your efforts and skills. Conversely, if you start out indifferently, you'll have a steeper hill to climb to disprove the first image, and you'll also have less room for error. That's reality, too.

So when I hear all of these folks talk about bailing from their vinyl-sided houses b/c they fear being sucked into -- and "bailing out" -- the Reston socialist hellhole, I am confused. Almost everything is comparative, but being a neighbor of Reston and part of the SLHS pyramid is a pretty rich pudding.

Don't Be Fooled Wrote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> Not picking a fight, just curious: can you cite
> a case where they've done this?
>
> When there was a redistricting for the Rachel
> Carson opening, staff said that all middle school
> rising 8th graders could complete middle school
> where they started. When the school board voted,
> they moved rising 7th and 8th graders to Carson.


Filling a brand new school is different from working to increase the population at a school with an existing student body.

I can see why they wouldn't want to open a middle school with just seventh graders.

All of the projections are based on rising freshman being the only group affected next year, except for the Madison Island students.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
>
> As long as there are no "islands" made by pulling
> out high needs ESes feeding South Lakes, there's
> not much that can be done to affect the general SL
> demographics. The high needs areas are all fairly
> close to SL and far from the other high schools.
>
> Sure, you can add another school or school and a
> half that look just like Sunrise Valley - Fox
> Mill, whatever Northeast Floris is, ..., to make
> the kids/parents at Sunrise happier and the top
> line numbers (SATs, etc.) look better, but there
> are simply about 500 or so kids at South Lakes
> that are very high needs, fairly transient, etc
> who are not going away. This redistricting simply
> won't help them, and may even make it worse as the
> school pays less attention to them given the
> demands of new large group of extremely unhappy
> advantaged parents in the administration's face.

Your information is interesting and well presented. Your conclusion is faulty. Those high needs kids will do better when they make up a smaller percentage of the student body.