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Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: September 04, 2010 12:58PM

http://mobile.washingtonpost.com/c.jsp?item=http%3a%2f%2fwww.washingtonpost.com%2fwp-syndication%2farticle%2f2010%2f09%2f03%2fAR2010090306128_mobile.xml&cid=578815&spf=1

I thought the governor's idea to privatize liquor stores was kinda dumb, but not that big of a deal. Now he's proposing to raise taxes on bars and restaraunts to cover for the shortfall in revenue that will happen once they're privatized.

What a crock of shit.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Warhawk ()
Date: September 04, 2010 01:02PM

Moonshine FTW!

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: September 04, 2010 01:16PM

Privatizing liquor stores is purely an ideological idea given the flimsiest of short-term justifications. Selling the stores will bring in a lot of revenue right away, but the loss of revenue over time is practically impossible to recoup, particularly with a tax-averse legislature such as VA's. He can come up with all the "plans" he wants for raising taxes in one place to make up for the loss here. Getting them passed is another story.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: September 04, 2010 01:16PM

Warhawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moonshine FTW!



http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/04/29/pm-rise-in-moonshine-microdistilleries/


Moonshine is no longer limited to toothless rednecks in the mountains, it's getting mainstream.

The federal government will lay the smackdown on you if you ever get caught, you would think you were some drug kingpin.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: eesh ()
Date: September 04, 2010 01:17PM

Johnny Walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Privatizing liquor stores is purely an ideological
> idea given the flimsiest of short-term
> justifications. Selling the stores will bring in a
> lot of revenue right away, but the loss of revenue
> over time is practically impossible to recoup,
> particularly with a tax-averse legislature such as
> VA's. He can come up with all the "plans" he wants
> for raising taxes in one place to make up for the
> loss here. Getting them passed is another story.





Not to mention the unemployment created by closing the state stores, it's not realistic to think every ABC employee will have a job waiting for them at a private liquor store.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: mjcc1987 ()
Date: September 04, 2010 06:48PM

Wait a minute, I thought the Rethugillians were about less Government, no taxes at all, no Mexicans and forced christianity for all. I think we should listen to Rev McDonnell and Father Cooch as they know better than us poor sinners. Besides, to second guess them is to be a socialist, communist, a godless democrat who likes Mexicans.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: wally pip ()
Date: September 05, 2010 04:04AM

That gov mcdonnell sure seems to have a bee up his arse on this one but sure seems like the state liquor stores throw off a very nice profit as is

wonder if the old gov has some friends who run liquor stores in other locales


when i got 30-40 min. to kill i enjoy people watching outside a liquor store
man the stories you can create in your mind as you watch different folks going in will fascinate you

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Voter____ ()
Date: September 05, 2010 09:19AM

I haven't quite decided about this one. Generally, I am not in favor of the government being involved in what the private markets can take care of on their own. This isn't a clear case like utilities or roads where government involvement makes sense--it's more like an outdated holdover from prohibition days. That said, we are relying on the revenue these stores produce and it will have to be replaced somehow.

Steven Perstein from the Post makes a fairly convincing case that revenue could be replaced by raising taxes on liquor sales without increasing the final price to consumers, but studies in states that have tried it shows it doesn't usually work out that way. Worse, they have found in many cases that choice is reduced because stores end up carrying only the most profitable product lines.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: tomahawk ()
Date: September 05, 2010 09:48AM

mjcc1987 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait a minute, I thought the Rethugillians were
> about less Government, no taxes at all, no
> Mexicans and forced christianity for all. I think
> we should listen to Rev McDonnell and Father Cooch
> as they know better than us poor sinners. Besides,
> to second guess them is to be a socialist,
> communist, a godless democrat who likes Mexicans.


Yeah, and I though the Dems were about ending wars, ending domestic spying, ending torture, and closing Guantanamo Bay.

So you're even, bitter little man.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: ABC ()
Date: September 05, 2010 10:37AM

What I don't understand is that the whole point of this privatization was to raise more money for the state to fund the roads - right? So if this privatization scheme is so lucrative, why on earth would they need to (permanently) raise taxes to pay for it?!? Something doesn't add up here. If it's so great and is going to bring in so much money, shouldn't it pay for itself? At best, I could see them needing a temporary income flow to deal w/ the costs of the switchover, but I seriously doubt any increase would be temporary.

There's something inherently flawed in this scheme or some special interest that needs to be appeased and it's not going to be the free-market solution that it's being touted as. It sounds more like they are going to raise taxes on alcohol in restaurants/bars (a fun tax) and use that to fix roads, with this privatization smokescreen in between to distract people and waste some money.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: September 05, 2010 11:55AM

ABC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I don't understand is that the whole point of
> this privatization was to raise more money for the
> state to fund the roads - right? So if this
> privatization scheme is so lucrative, why on earth
> would they need to (permanently) raise taxes to
> pay for it?!? Something doesn't add up here. If
> it's so great and is going to bring in so much
> money, shouldn't it pay for itself? At best, I
> could see them needing a temporary income flow to
> deal w/ the costs of the switchover, but I
> seriously doubt any increase would be temporary.
>
> There's something inherently flawed in this scheme
> or some special interest that needs to be appeased
> and it's not going to be the free-market solution
> that it's being touted as. It sounds more like
> they are going to raise taxes on alcohol in
> restaurants/bars (a fun tax) and use that to fix
> roads, with this privatization smokescreen in
> between to distract people and waste some money.


Say the state owned a singing dancing monkey, and they put on shows with it all year round and charged people to watch. Let's pretend they make a million dollars a year with this monkey. Now, the state suddenly finds itself strapped for cash for something it needs, like roads, and Disney is offering to pay them 10 million dollars to buy the monkey. Hey, that's great! Now we can fix those roads we need to fix. Cool! But now they are out the million a year they made off the monkey, and the 10 mil is spent, so that's not there to offset the loss. That's pretty much what this is.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Kardinal ()
Date: September 05, 2010 12:01PM

Either the state should be in the business of selling booze on its own merits, or it should not. Whether they make money from it or not is irrelevant.

Either the state needs the money to do what it does or it doesn't. And taxing booze sold either through its own stores or bars is either the right thing to do or it's not.

When you're criticizing policies like this, all you're doing is saying "I don't like Governor McDonald, and this is giving me an opportunity to say bad things about him." It's not about trying to find solutions and what's best for Virginia; it's about petty partisan politics.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: monkey business ()
Date: September 05, 2010 12:09PM

Say the state doesn't have the funds to give schools their state funding. So they declare a "pension funding holiday" where the counties don't have to pay into the state pension fund for a year (for their employees). Then they ask the counties for that money later at a 7 percent "payback interest rate" (and nobody can make 7 percent anywhere these days). Will taxes have to be raised at the local level? Will McDonnell look great because he held state taxes down? Will Virginia be the state that has a surplus in its state budget again? Will McDonnell become chairman of the RNC? That's the monkey that keeps dancing.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: black and white it never is ()
Date: September 05, 2010 12:13PM

Either the state should be in the business of selling booze on its own merits, or it should not. Whether they make money from it or not is irrelevant.

Either the state needs the money to do what it does or it doesn't. And taxing booze sold either through its own stores or bars is either the right thing to do or it's not.

When you're criticizing policies like this, all you're doing is saying "I don't like Governor McDonald, and this is giving me an opportunity to say bad things about him." It's not about trying to find solutions and what's best for Virginia; it's about petty partisan politics.



Kardinal:

Either you are an idiot or you're not. I think it's obvious which the choice is.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: oh so easy ()
Date: September 05, 2010 12:18PM

Either the state should be in the business of lottery tickets or not. Whether they make money from it or not is irrelevant. It's either the right thing or it's not.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: can we debate? ()
Date: September 05, 2010 12:45PM

Kardinal wrote:

"When you're criticizing policies like this, all you're doing is saying "I don't like Governor McDonald, and this is giving me an opportunity to say bad things about him." It's not about trying to find solutions and what's best for Virginia; it's about petty partisan politics."



I'm not sure who Governor McDonald is, but I do know a guy named Governor McDonnell. I think you're making a big assumption when you leap to the conclusion that "criticizing his policies is just giving an opportunity to say bad things about him". Geez, I really love the guy, but just don't like his policies. If he asked me to be his friend, I would. So, no, I am not looking for opportunities to say bad things---I really, really want to be able to say good things about him. I'm criticizing this idea with the liquor stores---and especially when he then has to slap a tax on restaurant and bar drinks to make up the money. This is about MONEY and if you think it's not, you're in a cave somewhere. I hope McDonnell does not take the criticism personally and I doubt that he does. I'm sure he's a great guy in many ways---this idea is not one of his great points though.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: TheMeeper ()
Date: September 05, 2010 01:03PM

I don't like McDonnell, but if his plan to sell liquor stores helped the state budget, then fine. Personally I didn't think it was necessary, but, I'm not a fan of "state" liquor stores either because it smacks of teetotalling blue-laws. So in either case, it I didn't think it was that big of an issue.

But, raising taxes in order to privatize the stores is total bullshit. My opinion is not partisan at all. If they need to raise taxes to privatize liquor stores then they shouldn't be privatizing any of them. It's a stupid idea. Either figure out a way to sell them without raising taxes, or keep them in state hands.


Kardinal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> When you're criticizing policies like this, all
> you're doing is saying "I don't like Governor
> McDonald, and this is giving me an opportunity to
> say bad things about him." It's not about trying
> to find solutions and what's best for Virginia;
> it's about petty partisan politics.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Ises ()
Date: September 05, 2010 08:12PM

Here we go again with Republicans raiding funds and trying to take the State of VA back to the stone ages. Did McDonnell even check as to why the liquor stores were started in the first place.

The reason VA started the stores in the first place was get more tax revenue and ensure liquor sold in VA stores and bars is not counterfeit. VA has a history of moonshiners and counterfeit liquors.

ABC stores ensure that liquors sold in VA come from the actual distillery label on the bottle. Bars must buy from ABC stores. ABC stores assign tax stamps to the liquor.

I'm so sick of Republicans screwing everything up. If it works and brings in more $$$ revenue then why fuck it up.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Mofo ()
Date: September 05, 2010 10:03PM

Washington Post did an article on this.Iowa did the same thing years ago and now makes more money than they every did with a monopoly.
Attachments:
GR2010090306440.gif

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Area man ()
Date: September 05, 2010 10:33PM

Hey Mofo look closely at that chart. Since 1986 Iowa has a few hundred million in revenue that they would have had otherwise.

The only philosophical argument in this economic environment should be what is best financially for the commonwealth?

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: September 05, 2010 11:48PM

I wonder what caused what looks like a sudden spike in '09. I'm not wondering to make any point, just curious. Did they raise the tax? Was there an increase in population? Could it even be economic stress leading people to drink more or something along those lines?

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: September 06, 2010 12:10AM

I've never understood how a state like Texas, which has no car tax, no income tax and private liquor stores, somehow manages to make it.

And Virginia can't make it without those things.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: George Herbert Walker Bush ()
Date: September 06, 2010 12:31AM

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never understood how a state like Texas,
> which has no car tax, no income tax and private
> liquor stores, somehow manages to make it.
>
> And Virginia can't make it without those things.

Four words: OIL; Taxes on OIL (production)

OK, five words.

You're welcome.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: ABC ()
Date: September 06, 2010 11:38AM

OK, so if Iowa is the model and ten years down the road, Virginia will be rolling in dough, why do they need to raise taxes now to pay for it? Shouldn't lenders be lining up to give them a loan if it's such a sure thing that it'll turn a profit? I don't think too many people would object to privatization, but taxing to pay for it is the real issue here.

By the way, it looks like the Iowa increases came because they've quadrupled the number of liquor stores/licenses. They started with ~200 in 1986 and now have ~800.

How would the pricing work at privatized stores, would the owners be allowed to set prices? If I'm not mistaken, right now you'd pay the same price for a bottle of vodka in, say, Winchester as you would in Arlington because the prices are fixed by the state. If you compare the gas prices between those two places, for example, there's like a $0.30 difference. If they're letting the pricing change, then people living in metro areas (i.e. people on this board) should be against it, because your prices will go up.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: goofy chart ()
Date: September 06, 2010 01:07PM

You can't tell me that the rate of inflation between 1980 and 2010 has been zero and therefore they are getting $30 million more than they did in 1980. Even if the rate of inflation had been a measly 2% per year, the inflation would be 60% between 1980 and 2010. By my reckoning 104 million is not 60% more than 74 million. The chart does not show inflation adjusted dollars. I would be willing to make a bet that the 104 million that Iowa gets now buys less than the 74 million that they got in 1980. It didn't work.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Date: September 06, 2010 01:14PM

The real cost of a liquor store is what it does for crime and enforcement around the liquor store. Expect more vagrants and petty crime in places like Annandale and Seven Corners.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-11.htm

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Piggy ()
Date: September 06, 2010 01:28PM

This is a mixed bag. My challenge is that Everclear is not sold in the ABC stores. Floyd County is too far, and it is much safer to drive to DC or MD to get Everclear. I just have to sweat bringing untax booze across state lines!!!

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: say ()
Date: September 06, 2010 01:38PM

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never understood how a state like Texas,
> which has no car tax, no income tax and private
> liquor stores, somehow manages to make it.
>
> And Virginia can't make it without those things.


You ought to see the real estate tax bills in Texas. Like twice or three times what they are here.

The sales tax is 8.25% in most Texas cities.

Bottom line: the motherfuckers are going to get your money, no matter what state it is.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: September 09, 2010 10:01PM

say Wrote:
>
> You ought to see the real estate tax bills in
> Texas. Like twice or three times what they are
> here.
>
> The sales tax is 8.25% in most Texas cities.
>
> Bottom line: the motherfuckers are going to get
> your money, no matter what state it is.

The Tax Foundation puts Virginia's tax burden (as of 2008) at #18, worse than average.

#1 is the worst, and it's New Jersey.

Texas is at #43, so apparently even with the property tax being higher and the sales tax, it has a lower burden on its citizens.

Maryland BTW, comes in at #4, DC comes in at #8, which is amazing. Maryland just sucks in every category.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/336.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2010 10:01PM by trogdor!.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: itchy ()
Date: September 10, 2010 12:57PM

I hope they do privatize it. I promise I'll open the first drive thru liquor store if Fairfax.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: say ()
Date: September 10, 2010 08:12PM

itchy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope they do privatize it. I promise I'll open
> the first drive thru liquor store if Fairfax.


Dude, unless you're a well-connected Republican (ie. wrote big checks to the McDonnell campaign), you don't have a chance in Hell of getting a liquor license.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Rob ()
Date: September 11, 2010 01:19AM

how hard is it to meet in the middle? why not keep some stores and let private companies also sell?

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: middle or muddle? ()
Date: September 11, 2010 10:06AM

We actually have sort of the middle right now. Private stores can sell beer and wine (Giant, etc.) and the state stores sell the "hard stuff".

I don't know about all this private-public stuff. It seems like the private end always wins on it and the public just gets to pay more taxes to support the rich private end of things. They get rich and we get poor. All you have to do is look at the government building scam with South County Government Center and the public school takeover mess (by private companies in big cities) to see where this mentality leads. Oh, also observe the contractors to the military---like Haliburton, etc.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: ABC ()
Date: September 12, 2010 05:37PM

"I don't know about all this private-public stuff. It seems like the private end always wins on it and the public just gets to pay more taxes to support the rich private end of things. They get rich and we get poor."

If done properly, you - consumer - win because there is no longer a state-run monopoly, so prices go down while customer service goes up, because they actually have to compete for your business. For every example you cite, there are hundreds more that go the other way (see: airlines,long distance phone service, etc.)

I think your problem is not with privatization as a theory; it's with the government "privatizing" in a manner that is still controlled by them (i.e. not REALLY privatization, but some half-assed bastardization of that) so that they can hand out business to their cronies who - shocker! - are often not the best qualfied or very good at what they do, because they know they'll get business regardless of their actual performance so long as their buddies are still in office. That's what you should be railing against, and most if not all of the examples you've cited are good examples of this.

Authentic privatization wouldn't involve giving out a limited number of licenses - it'd just be a big free for all where anyone w/ enough to invest could own a liquor store. Inevitably some of the weak owners would fail miserably and the strong would be successful, but they'd all be fighting for your business and you'd benefit.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: middle or muddle? ()
Date: September 12, 2010 09:46PM

So . . . is this plan for "authentic privatization"? I do agree with what you are saying about the government bastardization of privatization (the cronyism that goes on)>

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McDonnell cuts cocktail tax in ABC privatization plan
Posted by: trogdor! ()
Date: September 12, 2010 09:57PM

McDonnell cuts cocktail tax in ABC privatization plan

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/sep/09/abcc09-ar-495985/

Richmond, Va. --

Facing a potential deal-killing revolt by fellow Republicans, Gov. Bob McDonnell scaled back a cocktail tax from his proposal to dismantle the state's liquor monopoly -- a move that means the plan would produce less money than promised.

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Re: McDonnell cuts cocktail tax in ABC privatization plan
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: September 13, 2010 12:13AM

Exactly what I expected to happen.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: love it ()
Date: September 13, 2010 07:03AM

Oh, goodee! A "hidden" tax. I'm sure some weird "fees" are coming.

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Re: Raising taxes in VA in order to privatize liquor stores
Posted by: Skawt ()
Date: September 13, 2010 07:14AM

I still don't understand this state and Liquor. I grew up in Arizona. They had the private liquor store up until about the 80's. After that you could simply walk into any grocery store and buy whatever you wanted. Even Costco sells Kirkland brands of liquor in the gallon size for cheap.

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Re: McDonnell cuts cocktail tax in ABC privatization plan
Posted by: formerhick76 ()
Date: September 13, 2010 08:52AM

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McDonnell cuts cocktail tax in ABC privatization
> plan
>
> http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/sep/09/abc
> c09-ar-495985/
>
> Richmond, Va. --
>
> Facing a potential deal-killing revolt by fellow
> Republicans, Gov. Bob McDonnell scaled back a
> cocktail tax from his proposal to dismantle the
> state's liquor monopoly -- a move that means the
> plan would produce less money than promised.

And this means Northern VA Dems who'd be at least open to supporting privatization will themselves get cold feet.

Unless McDonnell proposes cuts or tax increases to offset the loss of revenue, this is just a gimmick. (Could be a starve the beast sort of thing given that McDonnell has both houses and could probably ram something through anyway, leaving the hard decisions until 2012.)

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Re: McDonnell cuts cocktail tax in ABC privatization plan
Posted by: Johnny Walker ()
Date: September 13, 2010 09:53AM

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unless McDonnell proposes cuts or tax increases to
> offset the loss of revenue, this is just a
> gimmick. (Could be a starve the beast sort of
> thing given that McDonnell has both houses and
> could probably ram something through anyway,
> leaving the hard decisions until 2012.)


This was always a gimmick. It had no chance of getting through as he proposed it, and I'm sure he knew it.

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