Some NEW driving laws as of July 1st - Civil Penalties will now be charged.

To all of you with lead feet out there, effective July 1, in our wonderful
Commonwealth of Virginia, any traffic ticket, with the exception of
regular speeding, will carry heavy civil penalties (yes, this is a new
charge) in addition to the fine and court costs that you will have to pay.

Be careful when you drive.

This is the website that lists the offenses and how much each civil
penalty is.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/publications/hb_3202.pdf

Reading is fundamental. It says right there at the beginning that the fees only apply to misdemeanors and felonies.

"These civil remedial fees will not apply to traffic infractions like failure to obey a
highway sign or failure to yield or parking too near a hydrant. They apply only to certain
motor vehicle-related or driving felonies and misdemeanors (certain motor vehiclerelated
or driving offenses which are crimes)."

"Obscene Video Image Visible Outside Vehicle" Who would have thought that was against the law??? Personaly, I would think it would depend on the type of porn. LOL

Passing a school bus - they will make big bucks on this - just stake out Gallows Road on a school morning and all the Commonwealth's budget problems will be solved!

The list is at the bottom of the pdf and it is quite extensive.
Its not just "certain" offenses, there are few that aren't on the list, and the ones that aren't are probably under the "RD - Generally" line item.

Failure to signal?
Get ready to pay the fine + processing fee + new fee of $1050

failure to signal has always been a misdemeanor. Thus my point. It's reckless driving.

Keep in mind when you read the list that the fee is 3 times the fee listed because you have to pay it each year for the following three years.

Manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter - with or without alcohol involved, maiming - again w/wo alcohol, and stealing a vehicle all have the same monetary penalty.

I will stick to watching porn while driving, much cheaper.

If I were a lawyer, the very first thing I'd attack is the "Virginia 'residents' only" provision. That sounds to me like a weak point. What other states have laws that punish the residents of the state, but not out-of-towners?

In fact, I'd say this is a clear violation of the 14th amendment because it gives non-Virginians greater rights (exemptions from fines) than Virginians.

And why not pile on! This law clearly violates Article IV, Section 2 of the US Constitution:

"The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states." See Hicklin v. Orbeck http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0437_0518_ZS.html

So if a resident of North Carolina is immune from this fine, then the Constitution says I am as well.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2007 11:08PM by trogdor!.

can anyone say, "cash cow?"


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

The constitutional argument may or may not be sound, but practically speaking, nobody is going to test the law that far, since it would require you to risk conviction, some huge fines, and lawyer's fees to boot.

Conviction Code   Conviction Description                       § 46.2-206.1   Annual Fee  Offense Class
                                                                 Subsection 
46.2-862 RD   -   SPEED 20/MORE ABOVE SPEED LIMIT - MISDEMEANOR  (C)2         $350        Misdemeanor 1
46.2-862 RD   -   SPEED 20/MORE ABOVE SPEED LIMIT - FELONY       (C)5         $1,000      Felony 6

when/how does 20+mph become a felony?


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Under the Reckless Code ---- Racing in a manner so gross, wanton and culpable as to show a reckless disregard for human life, causes seriously bodily injury to another person, the driver can be convicted of a class 6 felony pursuant to 46.2-865.1

"Nobody is going to test the law that far, since it would require you to risk conviction, some huge fines, and lawyer's fees to boot"

You're right that no one is going to 'test' the law, however, I'd be willing to bet that it won't take too many people who get fined $3,000 + before one of them appeals and runs it up the courts. You don't need a lawyer to take it to the circuit court, and I think it's pretty clearly a violation of the Constitution. And a $3,000 fine will eventually 'buy' someone willing to go the distance. Just wait until the first person gets multiple fines in one traffic stop.

I mean, some guy just went to the VA Supreme Court over an $40 parking ticket for an expired inspection sticker (and got it thrown out as invalid). The question I have is this: Why did they exclude other drivers? Should a reckless driver from Maryland be fined less than me? And if so, by what logic? There must be some other complication that I'm not seeing, otherwise they wouldn't have written the law to leave so much 'free' money on the table.

46.2-1086 OPERATE WITH SMOKE SCREEN/FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

So take that, James Bond!!!!

I'm glad I got all my "bad driving" done at this point.. I just drive like a grandma now..

although i'm about to get a new car.. damnit!

Kind of funny how this is not being advertised on the dmv website on there entry page. This state is rediculous with it's driving laws and penalties. I'm going to stick to getting violations in MD or DC.

DMV has a link now!!!

How would the porn while driving be enforced unless the cop saw it while behind the person. Is it a traffic charge? If so I thought a cop had to see it to enforce it.

I was thinking of how it would be reported by a citizen. Hello I am behind a big SUV and right now I see a video with a woman going down on a guy. Better get a cop here in fifteen minutes or it will be over.

They probably only apply it to Virginians because it would be too much of a hastle to collect it out of state, especially given the outrageous amounts and somewhat dubious legality of this scheme. This is basically an extortion racket run by politicians to gutless to vote for tax increases so they are trying to go in the back door to get more funds. I want to see what happens when they have to start seizing property from people who can't pay these fines.

what about a bunch of people in a limo watching porn?

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what about a bunch of people in a limo watching
> porn?


Been there, done that.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what about a bunch of people in a limo watching
> porn?


What about a bunch of people IN a limo FILMING porn?

I keep reading this and it looks like only people from Virginia have to pay the civil penalty. Is this legal? I thought a two tier system was illegal under the law.
Otherwise states could impose huge penalties on those out of state while keeping in state residents happy with minimal fines.

Bottom line is I don't care for drunk drivers but I think a first time offense fine of $3,000 or more is way out of line.

I think they should just lock up drunk drivers. But if you're penalizing people, you have to apply it equally for the same crime.

I wonder if the 5-0 will focus on Virginia 'plated' drivers in order to rake in the dough?

Maybe next they'll start adding ethnic groups to the list of people the fine applies to. We are after all talking about Virginia. The state that made the Pentagon builders add twice the bathrooms needed so that whites and 'coloreds' would have separate facilities. "Equal protection under the law? What's 'that-a'gin?" Personally, I think they should have just singled out Maryland drivers rather than Virginians.

Funny that David Albo a representative in Virginia was on tv saying how the extra fines for DWI and Reckless were very fair and how he supports it.

At the same time he practices law in Virginia specializing in DWI infractions. So if a person gets arrested for DWI and learns about the huge fines they could face if convicted who do they turn to but Albo to defend them. Nice system we have.

cw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I keep reading this and it looks like only people
> from Virginia have to pay the civil penalty. Is
> this legal?

no.


> I thought a two tier system was
> illegal under the law.

it is.


> Otherwise states could impose huge penalties on
> those out of state while keeping in state
> residents happy with minimal fines.

but this more insidious way is less likely to piss off enough of the right type of people to get it repealed.


> Bottom line is I don't care for drunk drivers but
> I think a first time offense fine of $3,000 or
> more is way out of line.

i think the proper penalty for drunk drivers is to have the vehicle seized because they clearly dont understand the stupidity of what they are doing.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

The Washington Post had an article on these atrocities today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/22/AR2007062201781.html?hpid=topnews

Conviction Code Conviction Description Subsection Annual Fee Offense Class

18.2-35 MANSLAUGHTER - VEHICLE (C)5 $1,000 Felony 5

18.2-36 INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER - VEHICLE (C)5 $1,000 Felony 5

18.2-36.1 INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER/ALCOHOL (C)5 $1,000 Felony 5

18.2-36.1 INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER/AGGRAVATED (C)5 $1,000 Felony 3

18.2-51.4 DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED, MAIMING 1ST (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-51.4 DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED, MAIMING 2ND (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-51.4 DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED, MAIMING 3RD OR SUBSEQUENT (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-102 UNAUTHORIZED USE OF MOTOR VEHICLE - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-102 UNAUTHORIZED USE OF MOTOR VEHICLE - MISDEMEANOR (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-147 ENTER/SET IN MOTION VEHICLE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-266 DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED, 1ST (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-266 DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED, 2ND (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-266 DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED, 3RD OR SUBSEQUENT (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-266 DRIVING UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS, 1ST (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-266 DRIVING UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS, 2ND (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-266 DRIVING UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS, 3RD OR SUBSEQUENT (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-266 DRIVING UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS/ALCOHOL, 1ST (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-266 DRIVING UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS/ALCOHOL, 2ND (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-266 DRIVING INFLUENCE DRUGS/ALCOHOL, 3RD OR SUBSEQUENT (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-266.1 DRIVING AFTER ILLEGALLY CONSUMING ALCOHOL/UNDER 21 (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 3

18.2-268.3 REFUSED BLOOD/BREATH, 2ND OFFENSE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

18.2-268.3 REFUSED BLOOD/BREATH, 3RD OFFENSE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-272 OPERATING SUSPENDED/REVOKED BASED UPON 18.2-272 (C)1 $250 Misdemeanor 1

18.2-272 OPERATING SUSPENDED/REVOKED, 3RD IN 10 YRS - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

18.2-323.1 CONSUMING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE WHILE DRIVING (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 4

46.2-300 NO DRIVER'S LICENSE - VEHICLE/MOTORCYCLE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-301 DRIVING UNDER REVOCATION OR SUSPENSION (C)1 $250 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-301.1(E) AUTHORIZE DUI OR HAB OFF/DUI SUSPENDED TO DRIVE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-302 DRIVE SUSPENDED BEFORE PROOF FINANCIAL RESPONS (C)1 $250 Misdemeanor 1/2

46.2-328 DRIVE WITHOUT LICENSE ENDORSEMENT(S) (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-329 OPERATE IN VIOLATION RESTRICTED LICENSE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-335 LEARNER'S PERMIT VIOLATION (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-339 OPERATE SCHOOL BUS WITHOUT LICENSE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-341.6 DRIVE CMV - MORE THAN ONE LICENSE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-341.7 DRIVE CMV WITHOUT LICENSE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-341.7 DRIVE CMV WITHOUT CDL OR PROPER CLASS (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-341.10 CDL INSTRUCTION PERMIT VIOLATION (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-341.16 OPERATE CMV WITHOUT ENDORSEMENT(S) (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-341.19 USE CMV TO DISTRIBUTE CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.21 VIOLATING OUT OF SERVICE ORDER (C)1 $250 Misdemeanor 1/2

46.2-341.21 DRIVING CMV WHILE DISQUALIFIED (C)1 $250 Misdemeanor 1/2

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV - BAC .04 OR MORE (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-341.25 DRIVE CMV - BAC .08 OR MORE, 1ST (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV - BAC .08 OR MORE, 2ND WITHIN 5 YEARS (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV - BAC .08 OR MORE, 3RD (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV - BAC .08 OR MORE/DRUGS (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.26 DRIVE CMV UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS/ALCOHOL, 1ST (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS/ALCOHOL, 2ND (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS/ALCOHOL, 3RD (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.25 DRIVE CMV UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS, 1ST (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS, 2ND (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-341.24 DRIVE CMV UNDER INFLUENCE DRUGS, 3RD (C)3 $750 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-346 DRIVER'S LICENSE VIOLATION (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-349 PERMIT UNLICENSED PERSON TO DRIVE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-357 OPERATING AFTER DECLARED HAB OFF - MISDEMEANOR (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-357 OPERATING AFTER DECLARED HAB OFF - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-371 INJURY OR DEATH - FAIL TO NOTIFY POLICE OF ACCIDENT (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 4

46.2-391(D) DRIVING WHEN REVOKED FOR DUI/2ND - MISDEMEANOR (C)1 $250 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-391(D) DRIVING WHEN REVOKED FOR DUI/2ND - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-391(D) DRIVING WHEN REVOKED FOR DUI/3RD - MISDEMEANOR (C)1 $250 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-391(D) DRIVING WHEN REVOKED FOR DUI/3RD - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-704 OPERATE OVERWEIGHT OR BEFORE PAYMENT OF FEE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-704 REFUSE TO HAVE VEHICLE WEIGHED (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-707 OPERATE OR PERMIT OPERATION UNINSURED MOTOR VEHICLE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-707 KNOWINGLY OPERATE UNINSURED MOTOR VEHICLE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-815 HAUL PROHIBITED CARGO THROUGH TUNNEL (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 4

46.2-817 ELUDE POLICE - MISDEMEANOR (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-817 ELUDE POLICE - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-817 DISREGARD POLICE SIGNAL TO STOP (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-817 ATTEMPT TO ELUDE POLICE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-818 STOP VEHICLE TO IMPEDE TRAVEL/BLOCK/DAMAGE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-829 RD - PASS OR OVERTAKE EMERGENCY VEHICLE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-852 RD - GENERALLY - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-852 RD - GENERALLY - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-853 RD - OPERATE IMPROPER BRAKES - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-853 RD - OPERATE IMPROPER BRAKES - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-853 RD - IMPROPER CONTROL - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-853 RD - IMPROPER CONTROL - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-854 RD - PASS ON CREST OF HILL - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-854 RD - PASS ON CREST OF HILL - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-855 RD - VIEW OBSTRUCTED - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-855 RD - VIEW OBSTRUCTED - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-856 RD - PASS TWO VEH ABREAST - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-856 RD - PASS TWO VEH ABREAST - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-857 RD - DR TWO VEH ABREAST - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-857 RD - DR TWO VEH ABREAST - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-858 RD - PASS AT RR CROSSING - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-858 RD - PASS AT RR CROSSING-FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-859 RD - PASS SCHOOL BUS - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-859 RD - PASS SCHOOL BUS - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-860 RD - FAIL TO GIVE PROPER SIGNAL - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-860 RD - FAIL TO GIVE PROPER SIGNAL - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-861 RD - DRIVE TOO FAST FOR CONDITIONS - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-861 RD - DRIVE TOO FAST FOR CONDITIONS - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-862 RD - SPEEDING EXCESS OF 80 MPH - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-862 RD - SPEEDING EXCESS OF 80 MPH - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-862 RD - SPEED 20/MORE ABOVE SPEED LIMIT - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-862 RD - SPEED 20/MORE ABOVE SPEED LIMIT - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-863 RD - FAIL TO STOP ENTERING HIGHWAY - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-863 RD - FAIL TO STOP ENTERING HIGHWAY - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-864 RD - ON PARKING LOTS, ETC - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-864 RD - ON PARKING LOTS, ETC - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-865 RD - RACING - MISDEMEANOR (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-865 RD - RACING - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-865.1 INJURING PERSON/CAUSING DEATH WHILE RACING - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-866 AID AND ABET RACING (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-868.1 AGGRESSIVE DRIVING (C)2 $350 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-894 FAIL STOP SCENE ACCIDENT - FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 5

46.2-894 FAIL STOP SCENE ACCIDENT - MISDEMEANOR (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-896 FAIL REPORT ACCIDENT/UNATTENDED PROPERTY/LESS $250 (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 4

46.2-896 FAIL STOP SCENE ACCIDENT/UNATTENDED PROPERTY (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-896 FAIL STOP SCENE ACCIDENT/UNATTEND PROP/EXCESS $500 (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-909 IMPROPER OPERATION/RIDING MOTORCYCLE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-921.1 EMERGENCY VEHICLE VIOLATION (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-933 FAIL STOP FOR PEDESTRIAN WITH WHITE CANE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-1042 OPERATE MOTOR VEHICLE WITH BELOW-STANDARD TIRES (C)3 $300 Misdemeanor 1

46.2-1077.01 OBSCENE VIDEO IMAGE VISIBLE OUTSIDE VEHICLE (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 4

46.2-1086 OPERATE WITH SMOKE SCREEN/FELONY (C)5 $1,000 Felony 6

46.2-1088.4 OPERATE MOTOR VEHICLE WITH WORKING N2O DEVICE (C)3 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-1090 OPERATE SCHOOL BUS WITHOUT WARNING DEVICE (C)3 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-1091 OPERATE SCHOOL BUS TRANSPORT CHILD W/O SAFETY BELT (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 3

46.2-1104 EXCESS WEIGHT/HEIGHT/SIZE/SPEED ON RESTRICTED HWY (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 2

46.2-1134 FAIL TO DISCONTINUE OPERATING CMV (C)3 $300 Misdemeanor 4

46.2-1137 REFUSING TO DRIVE TO WEIGH STATION (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 4

46.2-1139 VIOLATE HIGHWAY HAUL PERMIT (C)4 $300 Misdemeanor 1

i love this:

Quote
The Washington Post
Albo said: "it's basically a voluntary tax. If you don't commit a crime on the streets, or run up a huge amount of points, you don't pay anything. We believe its main effect will be to get people to stop driving like maniacs."

i say we add $100K fines to all laws because they are all voluntary!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cw Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I keep reading this and it looks like only
> people
> > from Virginia have to pay the civil penalty. Is
> > this legal?
>
> no.
>
>
> > I thought a two tier system was
> > illegal under the law.
>
> it is.
>
>
> > Otherwise states could impose huge penalties on
> > those out of state while keeping in state
> > residents happy with minimal fines.
Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cw Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I keep reading this and it looks like only
> people
> > from Virginia have to pay the civil penalty. Is
> > this legal?
>
> no.
>
>
> > I thought a two tier system was
> > illegal under the law.
>
> it is.
>
>
> > Otherwise states could impose huge penalties on
> > those out of state while keeping in state
> > residents happy with minimal fines.
>
> but this more insidious way is less likely to piss
> off enough of the right type of people to get it
> repealed.


Another instance of phrasing the question and choosing words that convey a specific and often intentionally ambiguous meaning.

NO, a two tiered law is NOT, in itself, illegal. What you are obviously confused about is the interstate commerce clause - you can not impose different rules that would discourage interstate commerce. That DOES NOT mean that you can't impose different rules for the intra state population.

If the law said out of staters would get the new fines and VA residents would get a slap on the wrist, then it would be illegal. If you said VA residents get heavy and fines and out of staters (or commonwealthers) get nothing, then it is NOT illegal. Period, end of statement. Got a problem with that? Tough. Deal with it.

Again, I am referring to the Interstate Commerce Clause. If there is an old VA law on the books that I am not aware of, then I apologize. But it appears that the Interstate Commerce Clause is what the above posters were referring to.

Now, go to your local courthouse and sue Danny Boy Snyder because you slipped and fell at one of "his" amusement parks. Then go to VA court and argue about the two tiered system and how it is violation of the interstate commerce act. Then blame me for everything because I am "full of shit" - there is a thread about that you know.

Must I be the only voice of reason (and facts) on this board?

Radiophile,
   i was wrong, my bad. however, i stick by my point that it's insidious.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Radiophile,
>    i was wrong, my bad. however, i
> stick by my point that it's insidious.


All is forgiven, Gravis. Yes, while the law is insidious, it is legal. Unfortuneately, just because it is isidious does not make it illegal.

I wait for the day pediophile gets a ticket under this new money stealing system and then listen to him squeal.

It comes down to fairness and $1,000 civil penalties tacked on to tickets is not fair. The purpose of a ticket is to punish the person not break them financially. A point system on their records will reflect a persons history and identify who is in need of losing their license. Excessive fines are only a backdoor approach for politicians to avoid being labeled as pro tax increase.

What I see are politicians, especially those who are defense lawyers, passing these oppresive laws. People charged with these offenses will take one look at the harsh penalties and then to no ones surprise hire a lawyer. A great system for the defense lawyers who happened to pass the laws in the first place.

it's been pointed out that albo, the guy who was behind the law, is a defense lawyer during the many months the state legislature is not in session.

"If the law said out of staters would get the new fines and VA residents would get a slap on the wrist, then it would be illegal. If you said VA residents get heavy and fines and out of staters (or commonwealthers) get nothing, then it is NOT illegal. Period, end of statement. Got a problem with that? Tough. Deal with it."

I think both are unconstitutional. In the SC case I mention above, the original law (which was overturned by the SC) granted a privilege to the citizens of Alaska that it didn't give to an out of stater. It would be unlikely that the courts would allow a state to give a punishment but not a privilege uniquely to it's own citizens.

My argument is that it violates article 4, section 2: "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States."

To me that states that each citizen of the United States, while within a particular state, will be entitled to the privileges and immunities of that state regardless of their state of residence. If an out-of-stater has the "privilege" of not being subjected to the fine, then I must have that privilege too. Nowhere in there does it say a state can screw it's own people and let everyone else off the hook.

And the 14th amendment which says a state will not deny "....any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

If this law, by design, punishes me differently than another state's resident for the exact same crime within the state of Virginia, then there is unequal protection under the law. A resident of Maryland is protected from this fine solely by virtue of their state of residence. That is unconstitutional. If the fines applied to everyone equally, there would be no problem.

I'm sure we will see one of these cases run up to the Virginia Supreme Court.

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If the law said out of staters would get the new
> fines and VA residents would get a slap on the
> wrist, then it would be illegal. If you said VA
> residents get heavy and fines and out of staters
> (or commonwealthers) get nothing, then it is NOT
> illegal. Period, end of statement. Got a problem
> with that? Tough. Deal with it."
>
> I think both are unconstitutional. In the SC case
> I mention above, the original law (which was
> overturned by the SC) granted a privilege to the
> citizens of Alaska that it didn't give to an out
> of stater. It would be unlikely that the courts
> would allow a state to give a punishment but not a
> privilege uniquely to it's own citizens.

Again, you can treat you own citizens hasher than out of staters. This does not violate the Interstate commerce Act.

> My argument is that it violates article 4, section
> 2: "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled
> to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in
> the several States."

Then fight it, you will probably loose!

> To me that states that each citizen of the United
> States, while within a particular state, will be
> entitled to the privileges and immunities of that
> state regardless of their state of residence. If
> an out-of-stater has the "privilege" of not being
> subjected to the fine, then I must have that
> privilege too. Nowhere in there does it say a
> state can screw it's own people and let everyone
> else off the hook.

The interstate Commerce Act works one way - Interstate Commerce, not INTRAstate Commerce.

> And the 14th amendment which says a state will not
> deny "....any person within its jurisdiction the
> equal protection of the laws."

I always get concerned when I see half a sentence preceeded by "...".


> If this law, by design, punishes me differently
> than another state's resident for the exact same
> crime within the state of Virginia, then there is
> unequal protection under the law. A resident of
> Maryland is protected from this fine solely by
> virtue of their state of residence. That is
> unconstitutional. If the fines applied to
> everyone equally, there would be no problem.

We are talking about protection. There is no federal statute that say you must treat your own citizens the same as out of staters. The law says you can't penalize out of staters in a way that would prohibit INTERSTATE Commerce.

> I'm sure we will see one of these cases run up to
> the Virginia Supreme Court.


It will be interesting. But I stand by what I said as FACT not interpretation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2007 12:22AM by Radiophile.

This does not violate the Interstate commerce Act.

Agreed.

However the Commerce Clause is Article I, Section 8, Clause 3. Nowhere do I mention it as part of my argument (others might have).

I shortened the 14th amendment to it's relevant part. You can read the whole thing here http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2007 12:38AM by trogdor!.

It's f'd up that only Virginia's get screwed! What lame brain type of people are in the Virginia Legislator???

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This does not violate the Interstate commerce
> Act.
>
> Agreed.
>
> However the Commerce Clause is Article I, Section
> 8, Clause 3. Nowhere do I mention it as part of
> my argument (others might have).
>
> I shortened the 14th amendment to it's relevant
> part. You can read the whole thing here
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constituti
> on.amendmentxiv.html

Actually, check this out:

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A4Sec1

It is a violation Article IV of the Constitution and that is what the lawyers are going to pursue...

Section 2. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/22/AR2007062201781.html?hpid=topnews



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2007 01:13PM by Tia2.

Lurker. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's f'd up that only Virginia's get screwed!
> What lame brain type of people are in the Virginia
> Legislator???

the type that never have to drive because he they driven everywhere by others in fancy cars.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Lurker. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's f'd up that only Virginia's get screwed!
> What lame brain type of people are in the Virginia
> Legislator???

The man who drafted the law was on the radio this morning and said that the reason that civil fines cannot be assessed against non-Virginia residents is because of the state constitution. Deal with it and slow down.

The point of a ticket is to document a persons driving behavior. If it gets to be that bad then suspend their license. The point of a ticket is not to break a person financially nor to raise revenue, that should be done through taxes.

A while back legislators, I think in the midwest, put a cap on how much revenue a town could raise from speeding tickets. It was capped on how much they spent on the police officers time and reasonable court costs. It prevented towns from setting up speed traps just to raise revenue. Any excess beyond what was needed to recoup the cost of running the radar went to the state. More than a few towns terminated their officers after that. It was nothing but a money making venture and had nothing to do with traffic enforcement.

BTW most legislators don't fear the traffic laws as they can be immune from tickets while they are in session.

I am not in favor of people speeding or driving drunk but to bleed them dry is also wrong. The legislators in favor of this stated the money would go to build new roads. If this is so where is the huge amount of road taxes I pay on gas going to?

"It is a violation Article IV of the Constitution and that is what the lawyers are going to pursue... "

Thanks for agreeing with me. See my post at the top of this thread (5th one down).

"The man who drafted the law was on the radio this morning and said that the reason that civil fines cannot be assessed against non-Virginia residents is because of the state constitution. Deal with it and slow down.

Was this David Albo? He also said in the post that the VA law was similar to the New Jersey Surcharge law. However, my cursory review of the NJ statute [17:29A-35(b)(2)] shows that it affects every driver in NJ, not just NJ residents"

"There is created a New Jersey Merit Rating Plan which shall apply to all drivers and shall include, but not be limited to, the following provisions"

But wow, talk about an unfriendly Code. The way NJ statutes are laid out is horrendous.

hold over, by your logic, our state legislators enjoy less than 60 days of immunity max per year. That's how long they are in session each year. That leaves ten whole other months where they have to fear the traffic laws.

That is 60 more than the rest of us enjoy. It is not my logic it is fact. My point is the financial hardship this system places on people. I don't drink and drive but a person should be able to correct themselves without this back door revenue generator program.

Where have all the taxes we paid over the years gone to if this is to raise money for roads? There is a big amount placed on each gallon we purchase earmarked for roads. So where is it? I see no road improvements in this area.

no, but i see large pockets on our legislatures.


a lot of reason the roads dont get buildt is residents bitching.
take for example the stringfellow rd widening meeting

" you cant allow stringfellow raod to be widened more on the west side than the other. thats where there is land to do it, but thats not fair. you cant build it if its not equally widened on both sides of teh road."

or

"we need a bike lane on each lane, a sidewalk AND an asphalt path"

or "traffic is going to be detoured thru my neighborhood while the road gets built, so you cant build it"


do these people LIKE to sit in traffic? obviously thats better than paying a small price to have it widened.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2007 10:45PM by KeepOnTruckin.

Like the article said...it'll take YEARS for the legality of this to be determined.

Meanwhile, you speedracin', school bus passin' motherfuckers are gonna PAY!

Don't worry though....they'll probably take plastic for payment....and with most people around here having credit card debt into the 6 figures....you'll hardly even notice it!

Just bringing this to the top. Too many people are posting new threads regarding this subject...

Is passing a school bus in the left lane while it is in normal operation illegal? What about passing nay car on the right, that's reckless driving in this state, will have get a new fun fee? I think I'll buy a shack and a mail box in prince georges county and get maryland tags.

since when is passing on the right illegal? cite the law? The washington post made a big deal in an article about how it was legal, just a few years ago. I was not aware of any change in the law.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2007 09:53PM by RESton Peace.

Mofo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is passing a school bus in the left lane while it
> is in normal operation illegal? What about passing
> nay car on the right, that's reckless driving in
> this state, will have get a new fun fee? I think
> I'll buy a shack and a mail box in prince georges
> county and get maryland tags.

You ain't gonna to like the car insurance rates in PG County...double or triple the NOVA rates.

Wouldn't it be easier to just obey the law...or back off it a little and just get the little tix that don't have the big fines?

This has to be about the poorest thought out legislation ever. Crazy

My guess is it won't last long. More defendants going for a jury trial will be the hidden cost of this TAX.

Personally If I'm on the jury and you are facing unreasonable fines/ "civil penalty" then I'm voting NOT guilty. This is totally ill conceived and we need to hold the first fagot in the State legislature Adam Ebbin(he sponsored it) and supporter/co sponsor Dave Albo responsible in the voting booth.

Washingtonpost article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/26/AR2007062601970.html

Va. Traffic 'Abuser Fees' Spur Backlash

"Albo, an attorney who specializes in traffic cases, said the vast majority of Virginia residents won't have to worry about paying the fees. Albo, who is unopposed this fall, said just 2 percent of drivers consistently have more than eight points on their record, and people can get a five-point reduction by taking an online driver safety course."

And of course who will be the real winner but Albo. When people see how much the risk is, they are going to run to an attorney for help. Albo just happens to be that kind of attorney, what a surprise.

My beef is where is all the tax money going that we already pay on gas and on purchasing tires and our state taxes. Northern Va has nothing to show for it.

BTW do you think the illegals are going to pony up the civil penalties? They are not even supposed to be here and are among the worst drivers in the area. I hope Kaine and Albo arent counting on that money rolling in.

since when is passing on the right illegal? cite the law?

Fairfax County code section 82-1-6 incorporates VA state code sec 46.2-838 ref: passing on the right.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-841

Apparently, depending on the road conditions/characteristics, it may be perfectly legal to pass on the right.

as I thought

The unintended effect of this law will be the clogging up of the district and appeals courts. Many fewer people will be willing to accept a plea bargain now due to these 'civil' fees that the court will not be able to avoid imposing. That means more lawyers and more bill-able hours. It also means the courts are going to grind even slower than they do now. I'm convinced it won't take long before one of these cases is heard by the VA Supreme Court.

And don't believe the BS about 'safety'. This is all about money. If it were a concern with safety, they would have just increased the fines to a minimum mandatory fine for each of the violations (and would have had no problem imposing that on out of state residents). Instead, they're trying to come up with a unique funding stream for highways. So all those NY, NJ, PA, NC, MD drivers I always see on 95 will not feel the pain. Yet we will continue to feel the pain of their dangerous driving.

BTW, wouldn't it be classic if Albo and/or his law firm has a hand in overturning this law due on Constitutional grounds? Then Albo can go out there and tell us how he did it all for us....

albo jr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW do you think the illegals are going to pony up
> the civil penalties?

lol... excellent point. the irony is they will be sent to jail for not paying... and we will pay to keep them there. nice.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

The illegals won't have IDs identifying them as Virginians so they won't even be liable to pay the fees.

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Instead, they're trying to come up with a
> unique funding stream for highways.

scheme, not stream.


MBF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The illegals won't have IDs identifying them as
> Virginians so they won't even be liable to pay the
> fees.

touche!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2007 10:00AM by Gravis.

Gravis Wrote:
>
>
> MBF Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The illegals won't have IDs identifying them as
> > Virginians so they won't even be liable to pay
> the
> > fees.
>
> touche!

If the civil penalties are going to be imposed on "Virginia Drivers ONLY," won't the "illegals" and anyone else subject to the fees have to have a driver's license? If the answer is yes, and if it's a VA one, they should be subject to the same penalties...right?

Tom Rust addresses that in his latest "Rust Report" (below--I've bolded the relevant section) though it still isn't clear as to how it will be enforced. What he's saying is nice and all, but not paying the fees will lead to the driver not being able to renew his license. If these people didn't have a license in the first place, what's going to make them pay the fees even if they are applied to them?

Additionally, he also touches on the fact that they don't apply to non-va residents...if NJ can do it, why can't VA?

Dear Friends:

Over the weekend, several local newspapers began talking about the so-called "abuser fee." Del. Dave Albo and I originally proposed this concept in 2005 and 2006 and debated its merits in public. We re-introduced it this year in partnership with Governor Tim Kaine. The recent articles on this subject were not entirely factual, and I put this article together to lay out the facts accurately.



The "abuser fee" passed this year as part of the comprehensive transportation funding package. This compromise was reached to avoid levying an increase in the gasoline tax, which would have impacted every Virginia driver at a time when gasoline prices are at record highs. Instead, we decided there was a benefit to encouraging good driving behavior by allowing good drivers to entirely avoid paying the abuser fees.



The abuser fees are indeed stiff - but only for drivers who commit serious misdemeanor and felony traffic offenses or who are habitual offenders. There are two ways to get charged an abuser fee, and I'll go through each individually.


Criminal Traffic Offenses



The first route to paying the abuser fee is to commit a criminal misdemeanor or felony traffic offense, such as driving while intoxicated, vehicular manslaughter, eluding the police, and passing a stopped school bus. In those cases, a driver would pay the abuser fee because of the seriousness of the conviction.



The biggest concerns I hear are on the topic of reckless driving, an offense that is already a Class 1 criminal misdemeanor carrying maximum penalties of $2,500, up to one year in jail, and license suspension. Reckless driving is a serious offense that stays on a driver's criminal record for eleven years. It is not a simple traffic infraction. DMV estimates that about 2% of the driving population got a reckless driving conviction in 2006. Many serious traffic infractions amount to reckless driving, including traveling 20mph or more over the posted speed limit, street racing, and passing a school bus that is loading or unloading students.



Many concerns have also centered around "failure to use a turn signal," which technically qualifies as reckless driving under the Code of Virginia and has for several years. This violation is not usually ticketed as reckless unless you also commit another offense or are involved in an accident. Although I make it a habit to use my turn signal, I will not worry that a police officer is waiting to give me a reckless driving citation if I simply forget to make a lane change without it.



The abuser fee does not generally apply to routine civil traffic tickets, such as those for speeding, failure to yield the right of way, disregarding a traffic signal, improper driving, and improper equipment. In those instances it only applies to those who habitually violate the law.



Habitual Offenders



If I get a Virginia driver's license for the first time this year, I start with a clean record. If I go a full calendar year without a traffic infraction, DMV gives me one "safe driving point." If I go a full five calendar years without a traffic infraction, I can get a maximum of +5 safe driving points.



On the other hand, DMV assigns "demerit points" to every moving traffic violation. For minor violations, drivers get three demerit points, for moderate infractions four points, and for more serious infractions, six points. Any demerit points I receive expire two years after the date of the infraction (not the conviction).



Returning to my example, if I get a ticket the second full year I have my license for going 63mph in a 45mph zone, I will get four demerit points. That means my point balance is -3. Say I keep my lead-footed tendencies and get a second speeding violation for going 44mph in a 25mph zone, another four-point offense, in the same year. In the same month, say I get a ticket for 74mph in a 55mph zone. My three hypothetical tickets in one year will take me to a -11 and I would qualify for the abuser fee. However, I can opt to take a safe driving course, which will give me five safe driving points, take me up to a total of -6 and prevent my paying the abuser fee. Many people would opt to take the safe driving course anyway because insurance companies are notoriously anxious to penalize or cancel drivers who have this many demerit points.



Only about 2.5% of Virginia drivers currently have a -8 or above on their licenses. But that's not the full story. The abuser fees are not retroactive, so any conviction a driver has received prior to July 1, 2007 will not be included in DMV's accounting.



Illegal Aliens



One of the most common traffic convictions illegal aliens get is for not having a valid Virginia driver's license, which they are not entitled to receive under Virginia law. If an illegal alien maintains a residence in Virginia, he or she is eligible for the abuser fees if convicted of not having a valid driver's license. The same would hold true for an illegal alien convicted of any other serious misdemeanor or felony conviction.



Out-of-state residents are unfortunately not subject to the abuser fee, because of an unavoidable constitutional conflict. I want to be able to make out-of-state residents subject to these same fees, and I have not given up on finding a creative way to do it.



Still Want to Know More?



More information about this legislation is available on my web site, www.tomrust.org. You can e-mail me at trust@tomrust.org or call me at (703) 437-9400 with questions or comments. If you want to discuss the issue with me directly, please let me know and I will take your call or set up a time to meet with you individually.


Warm regards,

Tom Rust

edit by Cary: Added a "close" tag for the italics



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2007 08:00PM by Cary.

h



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2010 02:57PM by inkahootz.

"Reckless driving is a serious offense that stays on a driver's criminal record for eleven years."

Call me naive, but I was under the impression that all crimes stayed on your record forever... here it implies that they do not? How does that work? Is there a list of crimes and how long they stay on your criminal record in VA?

Good grief. What is it with everyone. The freaking civil penalties ONLY will be assessed to MISDEMEANOR and FELONY traffic offenses. The fees will NOT be assessed to run of the mill garden variety traffic violations including speeding, stop sign running, red light running, etc. Also, just because you got caught speeding at 20 MPH over the limit does NOT mean you will automatically get a reckless ticket. If the officer writes you up under the SPEEDING code for 75/55 these fees will not be assessed. He would have to specifically charge you with RECKLESS driving for the fees to be assessed. Look at it this way, many of you who may have been charged with reckless driving for 75/55 in the past may find the officer doesn't want to deal with this BS either and you might just get off with a regular speeding ticket instead. Everyone calm down!

Cary or MBF, please close the italics tag you left open.

Trickie, this is what i was talking about.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

I like the way the politicians keep saying only class 1 and felony traffic offenses, like it is only the worst of the worst. Reckless is a class 1. Read the reckless code. It can apply to almost all offenses esp when you look under specific types. It can be twisted to fit almost every regular charge.

Then there is the general charge that any cop can apply as they see fit. Example; you run a red light and the cop thinks you were way late on it and other cars had to avoid you. What you think is a red light charge is now reckless.

This is where lawyers like Albo come in. His business will sky rocket off this penalty. I would bet before this was passed he saw very few reckless charges come to him for representation. Now with major fines and penalties involved, most will certainly find a lawyer to get them a reduced charge or dismissal.

46.2-852. Reckless driving; general rule.
Irrespective of the maximum speeds permitted by law, any person who drives a vehicle on any highway recklessly or at a speed or in a manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person shall be guilty of reckless driving.


Open to wide interpretation. Anyone disagree, please let me know why. BTW you want to roll the dice and take a chance a judge finds you guilty, better have a few thousand dollars in your pocket just in case.

what is the smoke screen?

when you deploy any kind of smoke screen behind you so as to confuse/distract other drivers. Like james Bond

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The constitutional argument may or may not be
> sound, but practically speaking, nobody is going
> to test the law that far, since it would require
> you to risk conviction, some huge fines, and
> lawyer's fees to boot.

That didn't take long:

Judge to rule on legality of abusive driver fees
http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20070727/METRO/107270071/1004/metro

Here's the problem, in a nutshell:

For the first time, the STATE GOVERNMENT has a really significant financial incentive to try to catch its citizens doing something wrong, and to make it as easy as possible for them to make expensive mistakes.

Think about this in the context of the business world: what happens when businesses discover that they can chisel their customers by setting up easy-to-break rules and punitive fees?

You get the retail banks who pay checks in largest-to-smallest order, in the hope that they can collect overdraft fees from clients who are living on the edge. You get credit card companies who move payment dates around every month in the hope that they can charge a late payment fee. You get the cell phone carrier who charges you $0.50/minute if you go over your plan minutes. And you get the gym membership that you can't leave because you have to present your resignation in person between 1:00 and 1:02 p.m. on the sixth Wednesday of the month.

While these practices are abhorrent, at least we can choose not to do business with these companies in the first place.

It's somewhat harder to choose not to interact with one's own state government.

In short: we should all be worried (even those of us who aren't dangerous drivers) when our government decides that it should be profitable to have us run afoul of the law.

I recently wrote the Governor's office about this. While I didn't expect them to read the letter I sent them very carefully (and they didn't), the form letter reply I got from the State Secretary of Transportation was more than a little misleading. If anyone is interested in seeing it with a little bit of, uh, color commentary, I've posted it here:

http://www.wherry.com/va-abusive-driver-fee-letter.pdf

Phil

People are pissed about the fees because the want to drive, however they want no matter what and believe that the enforcement is going against their "freedom". Follow the law, follow the rules and they are not going to "enforce" anything on you.

An honest error such as forgetting to signal should not cost you $1,000. No one I know of likes to pay traffic tickets but they especially dont like to be gouged and that is what this is all about.

Again most suspended drivers are suspended because they dont pay a $100 ticket. Now the state is counting on the tickets to generate revenue from people who dont pay tickets in the first place.

This stupid argument that I keep hearing is just obey the law and you have nothing to worry about. Anyone who has lived in Virginia, especially the small towns, knows all about speed traps. One second you can do the speed limit of 55 and just around the corner the limit drops to 25. The majority of tickets are also judgement calls by the police. Would you like to bet the $3,000 in fees that the judge will take the officers word over yours. Pretty high stakes in my book.

cw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This stupid argument that I keep hearing is just
> obey the law and you have nothing to worry about.
> Anyone who has lived in Virginia, especially the
> small towns, knows all about speed traps.

agreed. waiting in a cop car at the bottom of a hill is just wrong. i almost got a reckless ticket because i didnt brake going all the way down the hill on Picket Rd. I tested it out and from the speed limit of 35MPH on that road, you will pick up 17MPH if you dont brake at all going down the hill. if they are REALLY concerned, they would level out that hill a bit as it goes up and then is a steep downhill. too bad they dont actually care as they are only in it for the money.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cw Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This stupid argument that I keep hearing is
> just
> > obey the law and you have nothing to worry
> about.
> > Anyone who has lived in Virginia, especially
> the
> > small towns, knows all about speed traps.
>
> agreed. waiting in a cop car at the bottom of a
> hill is just wrong. i almost got a reckless
> ticket because i didnt brake going all the way
> down the hill on Picket Rd. I tested it out and
> from the speed limit of 35MPH on that road, you
> will pick up 17MPH if you dont brake at all going
> down the hill. if they are REALLY concerned, they
> would level out that hill a bit as it goes up and
> then is a steep downhill. too bad they dont
> actually care as they are only in it for the
> money.


Agreed and agreed! The only problem I have with this whole Civil Penalties thing is the fact that ONLY VA RESIDENTS have to pay them!

Given, it's better to charge the unsafe, drunk, and speeding drivers these fines rather than raising the taxes of everyone but:

A drunk Virginian is just as bad as a drunk Washingtonian! A Virginian going 80 mph is just as dangerous as a Marylander going as fast

Tia2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only problem I have with
> this whole Civil Penalties thing is the fact that
> ONLY VA RESIDENTS have to pay them!

i think that's the exact reason (in addition to the high cost) so many people are pissed off about this. nobody likes being singled out, they want everyone to suffer if they must. i say we just take the money out of politically related employees' paychecks instead of making the rest of the state suffer. like albo said, "it's a voluntary tax," so if you dont want to pay, dont be involved with politics.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

The only problem I see the limit to VA residents. They should fuck everyone with this.

I don't see the fees as a big deal at all. If you like to drive 20 over the limit then you are scum anyways.

Hi Scum Bag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see the fees as a big deal at all. If you
> like to drive 20 over the limit then you are scum
> anyways.


Or maybe you just liek to get place fast.

Not a big deal. Don't speed

I got one today! Everytime (if I ain't busy) that I run through radar, I turn around and drive through it again DEAD AT THE SPEED LIMIT...which invariably infuriates the cars behind me.

Then, when "we" get about 1/4 mile or so from the trap...I ease over (or turn onto a side street) and let the speedracers go on by....who by this time are SO mad that they floor it....right into the welcoming arms of FCPD. I call it the "slingshot".

Then I try to make eye contact with them as I go by their pulled over asses...and give 'em a big ole ear-to-ear grin! SUCKER!!!

I also flash my lights at oncoming traffic when there's no radar trap....I just love watching them back off of those twin turbos! LOL



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2007 02:29AM by duh.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Scum Bag Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't see the fees as a big deal at all. If
> you
> > like to drive 20 over the limit then you are
> scum
> > anyways.
>
>
> Or maybe you just liek to get place fast.


Is that English?

Yep.... SCUM.

yehh, just loads of typos.

Meant to say "Or maybe you just like to get places fast"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/11/AR2007081101352.html?hpid=topnews

Armed With Checkbooks and Excuses, First Casualties of Va. Fees Go to Court

And a month after the laws went into effect all those that were mentioned in the article were charged with Reckless Driving, meaning they were more than likely doing over 20 mph over the speed limit. I didn't see anyone charged with improper turn signal use. These people were showing a flagrant disregard for the law and for the safety of themselves and those around them. Too bad so sad.

Yeah, it would suck to get one of these charges, and obviously it's going to hurt the lower and middle classes more but if you don't break the law (& get caught) then you have nothing to worry about.

This was inevitable after they started rolling back the personal property tax, they needed to come up with another source of money. Preferably one that most of the wealthy can get out of. Welcome to America.

pmn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/11/AR2007081101352.html?hpid=topnews
>
> Armed With Checkbooks and Excuses, First
> Casualties of Va. Fees Go to Court

holy crap, that bitch looks like a man. she shouldnt be reproducing if her kids look that ugly.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Whoever knocked her up should be ashamed of himself.

Woah, she is a double bag woman.

The newspaper report said she was in Burke. There are two fire stations within a minute of each other if they ran with lights and siren. I cant see why a woman in labor would attempt to drive herself to the hospital, which if it is Fairfax, is maybe 20 minutes away with good traffic. I had to call 911 once for a guy who passed out from heat stroke. Two medics, one from each station, arrived within a few minutes.

Even if she was in the south part of Burke there is another off the parkway that would have been close. She is blaming the cops but what if she had went into real labor, how would she have driven then?

seriously...

imagine if the thing popped out as she was driving, and then lodged itself under the brakes! she put herself, her baby, and other motorists in danger.. im glad the law got her... just a shame they didnt beat her up a little :(

The article doesn't say she actually told the officer she was in labor. If she had, the officer probably would have called an ambulance for her. I think she made it up after the fact and is now trying to get out of the fine. This is her SECOND child.

pmn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The article doesn't say she actually told the
> officer she was in labor. If she had, the officer
> probably would have called an ambulance for her.
> I think she made it up after the fact and is now
> trying to get out of the fine. This is her SECOND
> child.


Of course she is doctoring the story to her own benefit! You really don't expect a liberal, authority-hating rag like the Washington Post to write a balanced story or actually investigate the entire event, do you? How frequently are the police actually allowed to defend themselves in the media? There are always two sides to every story but you'll never get it with most media outlets who are often set on a certain "agenda."

and you thought virginia was bad.........

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1918.asp

sparky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and you thought virginia was bad.........
>
> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1918.asp


wow... canada sucks more than ever.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2007 08:17PM by Gravis.

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=130926&ran=8086

GOP leaders propose easing new penalties for bad drivers

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got one today! Everytime (if I ain't busy) that
> I run through radar, I turn around and drive
> through it again DEAD AT THE SPEED LIMIT...which
> invariably infuriates the cars behind me.
>
> Then, when "we" get about 1/4 mile or so from the
> trap...I ease over (or turn onto a side street)
> and let the speedracers go on by....who by this
> time are SO mad that they floor it....right into
> the welcoming arms of FCPD. I call it the
> "slingshot".
>
> Then I try to make eye contact with them as I go
> by their pulled over asses...and give 'em a big
> ole ear-to-ear grin! SUCKER!!!
>
> I also flash my lights at oncoming traffic when
> there's no radar trap....I just love watching them
> back off of those twin turbos! LOL

Wow, you're a certifiable asshole.

You bet I am, Mofo!

If you ever get behind an old gray Chevy Impala doing the speed limit....BEWARE!

Re: Civil Penalties will be charged as of July 1, 2007

Not anymore. Yesterday the State Senate voted to repeal these abusive driver laws. Kaine will sign the bill.


It's been announced that the state Comptroller's office will issue refunds.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yesterday the State Senate voted to
> repeal these abusive driver laws. Kaine will sign
> the bill.
>
>
> It's been announced that the state Comptroller's
> office will issue refunds.


i wonder how much money was lost from that bill and having to undo it's damage. perhaps we should have albo should pay the tab.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."