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Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: TreeH ()
Date: May 28, 2007 08:26PM

Anyone have Geothermal Heat and/or Solar? Worth the costs? Any recommendations on installers? VA sucks for incentives.

TreeH

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 29, 2007 04:06AM

there is an excellent source of electricity... it's called the electric company. fuck the environment. why save a world of people that suck? humanity is going down.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: gesoffen ()
Date: May 29, 2007 09:19AM

I looked into Geothermal as our air exchange heat pump was reaching end-of-life. I only found two contractors that do geothermal in Fairfax (at least only two bothered to call me back). From my conversations with them, the equipment costs were roughly twice that of a new air exchange HP and air handler + the ground loop installtion costs. Depending on you lot layout, you'll need a horizontal loop (cheaper but you need a lot of with no trees, septic, etc) or vertical (good for small or wooded lots but expensive).

I have small, wooded lot (1/4 acre) and I retreated after a verbal drill quote of nearly $20k. I never investigated the feasibility of getting drill equipment in my backyard but I've read about a company in Richmond that sells a drill rig attachment for skid-steer loaders (i.e. Bobcats). If you can fit a lawn mower in your backyard, you should be able to get a skid-steer rig back there.

Anyway, no direct recommendations but I'm interested to hear what you find out. I think in this area, the lack of contractors familiar with geotherm is what is keeping the cost high. I've read that DIY is not difficult except that I'd still have had a $20k drill cost plus permit hassles.

Is it worth it? Solar will only get you hot water so its probably a high investment cost for low return - I'd get an on-demand hot water heater over solar any day. Solar for heat doesn't work because you need more heat in the winter when there is less sunlight. There is technology now that is adapting solar for cooling too but it is very young and not ready for consumers yet,

You can use geotherm for heating, cooling and hot water. I've heard 2nd hand accounts of heating/cooling bills less than $60 a month for a large (4000+sqft house). Seems hard to believe since lighting alone is typically $30-40 a month. But the technology and concept sure prove that you can drastically lower your heating/cooling energy usage so much cheaper bills should be a direct result. There are also other benefits too - no outdoor air compressor to clutter/noise polute, much lower maintenance costs, federal tax credits, etc.. In the end, I decided to stick with the air exchange system and wait for the geotherm to mature in this area a bit longer.

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: TreeH ()
Date: May 29, 2007 01:40PM

gesoffen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I looked into Geothermal as our air exchange heat
> pump was reaching end-of-life. I only found two
> contractors that do geothermal in Fairfax (at
> least only two bothered to call me back). From my
> conversations with them, the equipment costs were
> roughly twice that of a new air exchange HP and
> air handler + the ground loop installtion costs.
> Depending on you lot layout, you'll need a
> horizontal loop (cheaper but you need a lot of
> with no trees, septic, etc) or vertical (good for
> small or wooded lots but expensive).
>

We have a good sized lot that could accomodate a closed horizontal loop. I wonder how difficult a job it would be for a DIY project. I think the pipes only need to be buried 6-8inches (below frost line). There's a 6ton unit on ebay for about 2800 right now.

> I have small, wooded lot (1/4 acre) and I
> retreated after a verbal drill quote of nearly
> $20k. I never investigated the feasibility of
> getting drill equipment in my backyard but I've
> read about a company in Richmond that sells a
> drill rig attachment for skid-steer loaders (i.e.
> Bobcats). If you can fit a lawn mower in your
> backyard, you should be able to get a skid-steer
> rig back there.

How long ago was your estimate?

>
> Is it worth it? Solar will only get you hot water
> so its probably a high investment cost for low
> return - I'd get an on-demand hot water heater
> over solar any day. Solar for heat doesn't work
> because you need more heat in the winter when
> there is less sunlight. There is technology now
> that is adapting solar for cooling too but it is
> very young and not ready for consumers yet,

I was under the impression that Solar could recharge batteries that could be used to provide electricity. Do you know if the electric companies have to buy back any excess power you produce in VA?

>
> You can use geotherm for heating, cooling and hot
> water. I've heard 2nd hand accounts of
> heating/cooling bills less than $60 a month for a
> large (4000+sqft house). Seems hard to believe
> since lighting alone is typically $30-40 a month.
> But the technology and concept sure prove that you
> can drastically lower your heating/cooling energy
> usage so much cheaper bills should be a direct
> result. There are also other benefits too - no
> outdoor air compressor to clutter/noise polute,
> much lower maintenance costs, federal tax credits,
> etc.. In the end, I decided to stick with the air
> exchange system and wait for the geotherm to
> mature in this area a bit longer.

That monthly cost does seem incredible. I keep hearing "significant savings" but never am able to verify the numbers. I too am on the tail end of our heat pump and will need to make a decision here in the next year or two. If all you're looking at is monthly savings, it'll never recoup the cost (GHP or Solar). However, add to it the increased value in the house and it may weigh better.

TreeH

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 29, 2007 02:56PM

dirty hippies.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: gesoffen ()
Date: May 29, 2007 04:17PM

As far as DIY, I was mainly referring to the actual mechanical installation. In retrofit applications, adequate power and ducting is there so its a matter of ripping out old and installing new. A new "line set" is typically needed to connect to your loop but those should easily follow the existing AC line set. I never looked on fleabay but $2800 seems like a good price - although I'd be concerned about install and user support/warranty.

I looked into this starting late last summer. I only had one company give me a rough order drill price ($20k)for my vertical loop requirment and expressed concern about getting access with their 40' drill truck!? Two other companies wouldn't give me a ball park over the phone but said they'd do an estimate in person. I got the impression that $20k was a bit on the high side but not by much.

As far as solar and batteries, it is possible but thinking of a house's 200amp+ service requirements, you'd need a hell of a battery set to make it feasible/worth while. For resale, 99.9% of buyers would probably not care or even be turned off by a bank of batteries in their basement. All that said, I've only looked at solar as a general comparison to other technologies (e.g. geotherm) so I'd be curious to hear more if it is viable.

I didn't look at the monthly savings as the primary goal. I'm an engineer and it just geothermal just makes sense - constant, stable exchange medium, near zero maintenance, quiet, smaller equipment, etc. Not to mention, energy requirements are going no where but up - energy costs follow demand.

Not a hippy, just a nerd.

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: Radiophile ()
Date: May 29, 2007 05:01PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dirty hippies.


Damn dirty apes.

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: May 30, 2007 04:44PM

Now, I dont completely understand how geothermal power is done up, but i realize you get heat from the earth. So you put pipes in the ground and they get heated up. So the question is how to bury the pipes. How deep do they need to be? if it is less than 10 feet you can rent a Bobcat up at capital rentals w/ backhoe attachement and DIY. That shoudnt cost you more than 5k.

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: TreeH ()
Date: May 30, 2007 04:54PM

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now, I dont completely understand how geothermal
> power is done up, but i realize you get heat from
> the earth. So you put pipes in the ground and they
> get heated up. So the question is how to bury the
> pipes. How deep do they need to be? if it is less
> than 10 feet you can rent a Bobcat up at capital
> rentals w/ backhoe attachement and DIY. That
> shoudnt cost you more than 5k.


It's actually the stability of the Earths temp that is key (I *think* it's around 58F below the frost line). That means, heat can be "pulled" from your home and discharged into the earth via the liquid carrying pipes. Likewise, heat from the pipes (warmed by the Earth) can be much more efficiently extracted. Contrast this to Heat Pumps that most pull heat from the air (essentially useless below freezing) and you can see the comparison.

I recall reading that you have to lay a fair amount of pipe to insure the heat exchange can happen depending upon the size of your home.

Pretty cool technology indeed.

TreeH

Way off topic but did anyone see Microsoft's new Surface Computer? http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4217348.html

Make sure you read all 3 pages as there are interesting demos on all of them.

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 30, 2007 05:06PM

fucking treehuggers are the real cause global warming! do you think sucking the heat from the earth is helping the atmosphere cool? do you?!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: RightWingNut ()
Date: May 30, 2007 05:27PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fucking treehuggers are the real cause global
> warming! do you think sucking the heat from the
> earth is helping the atmosphere cool? do you?!


Someone needs a hug.

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: gesoffen ()
Date: May 30, 2007 07:20PM

The loop requirements are quite long - for your typical 2000 sqft above grade home, you'll need on the order of 800 to 1000ft in the ground. Horizontals are done easily enough with a backhoe or trenching tool. Vertical loops are typically done in two or more wells that are 300 to 500 ft deep.

The comment about geothermal heat causing global warming is ignorant. It is a more efficient heat transfer method primarily since you can design a system to transger heat to a stable heat sink (the earth at 55-58 degrees F). Thie earth temp stays stable year round and heat pump technology is much more efficient when the heat sink is near your target home temp (70-80 degrees F). Thie is in contrast to an air heat sink at ambient outdoor temperatures of 10 to 100 deg F and you'll see it makes sense without even getting into thermodynamics. Perhaps, ignorance is bliss.

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 31, 2007 06:38AM

RightWingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gravis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > fucking treehuggers are the real cause global
> > warming! do you think sucking the heat from
> the
> > earth is helping the atmosphere cool? do you?!
>
> Someone needs a hug.


LOL! thanks.


gesoffen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The comment about geothermal heat causing global
> warming is ignorant.


you are wrong! and no, i dont believe in sarcasm, it doesnt exist!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: gesoffen ()
Date: May 31, 2007 07:27AM

Gravis Wrote:
> you are wrong! and no, i dont believe in sarcasm,
> it doesnt exist!

Wrong! sarcasm does exist!

BTW - food for though on the global warming "debate"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece

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Re: Geothermal or Solar
Posted by: .sex ()
Date: March 17, 2024 08:01PM

sex

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