I always thought that dads being in charge of running baseball teams and making sure their kid played the most, or in the prime positions, ended in little league. Maybe a little ways into middle school babe ruth or travel teams, but never would I expect to see a FCPS team allow the parent of an active student athlete be directly involved in the coaching of that student's team, much less be the head coach in charge of that team and in determining playing time. "Daddy Ball" is what we called it at age 12, and apparently it is alive and well in the high school ranks at SCSS.

While attending the WSHS JV Baseball game this weekend against the visiting SCSS team, I overheard all sorts of talk by fans from both teams' bleachers about the first baseman of SCSS's JV team, who also happens to be the head coach's son. According to the fans, the coach has played his son in every game so far this season despite a .000 batting avg, and only reaching base once in 12+ plate appearances. All the while he lets 3 or 4 other kids sit on the bench with little to no action. Who knows, maybe they have somehow proven their stats would be worse than that if given the same number of plate appearances. The talking did not end there though. Apparently this same coach has run a travel baseball team for the last 2 years and all 10 of the SCSS students on that team made the JV team as freshmen this year and get the overwhelming majority of the playing time. An entirely freshman JV team, how does that happen?

But wait, there's more. Apparently there are three more dads, all involved as assistant coaches in the Varsity program at SCSS, that also have a player already in the program or one coming up in the next year or two. Is this common in high school sports now? Do dads really go and get coaching jobs at their son's school so they can continue the tradition of "Daddy Ball" from little league? It appears that is the case at SCSS. I have to admit, I do not know these coaches and they are probably all superb coaches, and their son's great players, though I saw nothing remarkable from either at the WSHS JV game this weekend. But why on earth would they want their credibility or integrity as a coach put into question by being directly involved in the coaching or the active roster decision process for a team in which their son is playing on? Why would SCSS's Athletic Director want do the same by hiring someone as a coach with a clearly direct conflict of interest like this in the first place? In little league I understand it happens as there are too few willing to step up and volunteer to coach, but at the High School level? I am surprised the Athletic Director, FCPS or VHSL would even allow it to happen.

Unfortunately, if this coach is really giving favoritism to players, including his own son, based on his past experience with them on a travel team or any other reason but for their pure playing ability, effort in practice or achievement on the field then I fear the near term future of the Varsity program at SCSS, the reputation of SCSS's Athletic Director and even FCPS are all at risk for failure, or continued failure as may already be the case. The same goes for the other 3 dad coaches at SCSS and any decisions they are making on the field. What was most depressing for me though was that I simply wandered over to go watch some good baseball along with everyone else that was there. Unfortunately, I was apparently only watching a good game of "Daddy Ball". WSHS won, daddy lost, just in case you were wondering.

It is surprising that dad/coach thinks that is an acceptable way to coach the team. Everyone knows what's going on when stuff like this happens. How does that really teach any players anything about the sport, improving their skills, and developing great teamwork? The only thing this environment teaches is the message that "it's ALL about who you know/who you're related to" ??

Besides the athletic director giving some feedback, what about the parents of the other players on the team? Can't imagine that they have not said something about the situation. Yes, it is impossible to respect a parent who coaches in this manner.

Thank you for posting this. I hope someone reads your post and decides they need to address the issue with the coach and athletic director at SCSS.

Here we go again. One of the most popular threads on this board in the last several years involved alleged shortcomings regarding SCSS baseball. Interestingly enough, that topic was initiated by you, Baseball Fan, who just happened to be "sitting in the stands" during a West Springfield and South County baseball game. Seems to me you have a hidden agenda here...perhaps the JV first baseman is playing in front of your son? Or maybe your son didn't make the team because all of the SCSS Dad/Coaches conspired to get rid of your kid (or most likely, you). Anyway, there is a severe shortage of qualified high school baseball coaches. These "dads" all work full time and, instead of lurking in the stands dredging up gossip, they work with these young athletes for the love of the game. Perhaps they got involved in coaching to begin with to keep their kids from falling prey to perverts like you.

@topp - I do not know if or why the parents on the team have not brought it up, though it sure sounds like a lot more is involved here if 10 of them have really been playing for this coach for the last 2 years. I actually considered looking up the athletic director's contact info this weekend when I heard this to verify and question - I may still.

@Here we go again - I was there with friends to watch their daughter play, but decided to go watch some hardball while I was there too. Perhaps I do have an agenda that helped inspire me to take a few minutes out of my day to post this message, outside of the sanctity of the game, though not the one you suggest. When I was a young athlete I was subjected to the negative effects of "Daddy Ball" on many occasions. It can be incredibly harmful to a young player's already difficult struggle with growing up and I personally despised it so much that it stuck with me many years later. I was stuck hard this weekend and appalled at the suggestion that it might be happening at the high school level.

I do not know the coaches at SCSS, or at WSHS for that matter, and even suggested they are probably superb at what they do (I wouldn't imagine they could keep a coaching job if they were not). My issue and concern as a baseball fan, a former youth player once hurt by this type of behavior and resident of this county is that if this is really happening someone needs to correct it before it does cause more harm than just people gossiping in the stands. If there is a shortage of quality coaches, let them coach just do so at a school other than the one their own child is currently playing the same sport in which they coach.

By the sounds of your response there may already be some history of concerns with this program though. If so, one might think that gives credence to what I heard in which case I am disgusted that nothing has been done about it. I have heard nothing but great things about that school since it opened, so hopefully someone over there is or soon will be at work repairing whatever reputation they have given themselves. The people's perception, if not managed and addressed, quickly becomes reality.

First let me say I am not a Fiarfax County coach nor do i live here. I have 4 sons who all played beyound high school. Because of my baseball background, I been playing since age 7 I was a 4 year stater in high school 4 year stater in college. Minor league player made it to AAA. At each level my sons played I was always asked to help out or coach and yes I have coached at high school and college levels. I tried to avoid being a head coach on their teams it did not always work. I should also say their mom was an all american softball player in college. They did get our genes and are good. This year my youngest son who also plays football and is a freshman tried out for baseball. He played varsity Football as a freshman and staterted. The highschool head coach knew him from the travel teams he played on and I would be lieing if I said he was not picked for the team long before tryouts. He made the team the day he enrolled at the school. The coach asked me if I would asist with winter conditiong and work with the team in the fall. I did. Two weeks before tryouts He asked if I would take a coaching posistion. I respectfully declined because my son was trying out. I made it a point not to be arround the team during tryouts.. To prevent parents from getting the wrong idea. I made this known to parentsI had nothing to do with the picking of the team or the team itself as i was just a parent. This did not stop a few parents from complaining to the school A.D. aftr the pickks were made. One dad actully said, I had told his son he was the best player. If this kid slapped me in the face I could not tell you who he was but still I had to justify my actions. Needless to say next year the school will not have my expirence helping but my sons will at home and yes I do have an indoor batting cage at my house. as well as an infield in my yard with a 60 ft 6in mound . I do not agree with daddy ball but sometimes its unavoidible. Good coaches are hard to find

I got your daddy ball thread right here!

What is wrong with Baseball Fan bringing up the subject of "conflict of interest" when Daddy coaches the team?

Whenever anyone brings up issues with questionable leadership decisions (like a few well-connected people making decisions that uniquely benefit their children or neighborhood/school), a couple of die hard Fairfax County cheerleaders show up and say "The problem is all YOU. Not the system here. You." Is Fairfax County really that perfect?

Calling someone a pervert for questioning the poor quality of coaching is really intelligent.

Coaching in that manner undermines the team.

OH here we go again Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is wrong with Baseball Fan bringing up the
> subject of "conflict of interest" when Daddy
> coaches the team?

See thread "SOCO HS Baseball Coach does not Discipline Player" also started by 'Baseball Fan'. Don't think this has anything to do with Daddy Ball and everything to do with his/her campaign to smear SCSS baseball. Get ready, cuz for whatever reason this was a hot topic last year. Let the mudslinging begin.

@ Jock Strap - I am not the same Baseball Fan and have no interest in smearing anyone's program. I am simply sharing something I found to be both interesting and disturbing about a local baseball team and thought I would share. If you want real validation, you certainly do not need to listen to me. Instead just attend one of their games and witness for yourself.

FWIW, I just read the discipline thread you referenced and while I certainly have my thoughts about how players should be held accountable for innappropriate conduct (by both umpire and coach) I was not witness to that incident, nor does that thread suggest to me that the coach did not ultimately take some sort of action after the game. Another unfortunate incident for SCSS baseball I guess, and it may be indicative of a larger problem, but I only know about what I heard and saw personally.

Please...this is the exclusive South County Secondary School where they refer to as "Father Ball".

Daddy ball is alive and well in all FCPS sports.

So is Daddy Ball anything like Mother Boy or....?

BaseballFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always thought that dads being in charge of
> running baseball teams and making sure their kid
> played the most, or in the prime positions, ended
> in little league. Maybe a little ways into middle
> school babe ruth or travel teams, but never would
> I expect to see a FCPS team allow the parent of an
> active student athlete be directly involved in the
> coaching of that student's team, much less be the
> head coach in charge of that team and in
> determining playing time. "Daddy Ball" is what we
> called it at age 12, and apparently it is alive
> and well in the high school ranks at SCSS.
>
> While attending the WSHS JV Baseball game this
> weekend against the visiting SCSS team, I
> overheard all sorts of talk by fans from both
> teams' bleachers about the first baseman of SCSS's
> JV team, who also happens to be the head coach's
> son. According to the fans, the coach has played
> his son in every game so far this season despite a
> .000 batting avg, and only reaching base once in
> 12+ plate appearances. All the while he lets 3 or
> 4 other kids sit on the bench with little to no
> action. Who knows, maybe they have somehow proven
> their stats would be worse than that if given the
> same number of plate appearances. The talking did
> not end there though. Apparently this same coach
> has run a travel baseball team for the last 2
> years and all 10 of the SCSS students on that team
> made the JV team as freshmen this year and get the
> overwhelming majority of the playing time. An
> entirely freshman JV team, how does that happen?
>
> But wait, there's more. Apparently there are three
> more dads, all involved as assistant coaches in
> the Varsity program at SCSS, that also have a
> player already in the program or one coming up in
> the next year or two. Is this common in high
> school sports now? Do dads really go and get
> coaching jobs at their son's school so they can
> continue the tradition of "Daddy Ball" from little
> league? It appears that is the case at SCSS. I
> have to admit, I do not know these coaches and
> they are probably all superb coaches, and their
> son's great players, though I saw nothing
> remarkable from either at the WSHS JV game this
> weekend. But why on earth would they want their
> credibility or integrity as a coach put into
> question by being directly involved in the
> coaching or the active roster decision process for
> a team in which their son is playing on? Why would
> SCSS's Athletic Director want do the same by
> hiring someone as a coach with a clearly direct
> conflict of interest like this in the first place?
> In little league I understand it happens as there
> are too few willing to step up and volunteer to
> coach, but at the High School level? I am
> surprised the Athletic Director, FCPS or VHSL
> would even allow it to happen.
>
> Unfortunately, if this coach is really giving
> favoritism to players, including his own son,
> based on his past experience with them on a travel
> team or any other reason but for their pure
> playing ability, effort in practice or achievement
> on the field then I fear the near term future of
> the Varsity program at SCSS, the reputation of
> SCSS's Athletic Director and even FCPS are all at
> risk for failure, or continued failure as may
> already be the case. The same goes for the other 3
> dad coaches at SCSS and any decisions they are
> making on the field. What was most depressing for
> me though was that I simply wandered over to go
> watch some good baseball along with everyone else
> that was there. Unfortunately, I was apparently
> only watching a good game of "Daddy Ball". WSHS
> won, daddy lost, just in case you were wondering.


Dude you have wrote way too much for one post on this site like i didnt read any of your bullshit cuz its a damn short story

topp Wrote:

> developing great teamwork? The only thing this
> environment teaches is the message that "it's ALL
> about who you know/who you're related to" ??
>

The sad thing is
thats the truth....

Why does Luther select players for his team, then informs them they will not play so that they quit.


Nice Guy

Someone has to shag balls and carry the gear for the starters.

SC Parent, I heard rumor that a player recently quit varsity after having a conversation with Luther about what his role was on the team. Sounds like maybe there was some truth to it. I can also only imagine the coaches at this school have missed the point of coaching youth sports, which is what you are still talking about at the high school level.

Whether they like it or not they are developing people, not just baseball players. Something like 4% of little league players are good enough to make a high school team and 4% of those good enough to make a college team and so on until you get down to a fraction of a % that actually make it the big show in professional baseball. While a good win/loss record is something great to have on your resume as a high school coach, it means nothing in the big picture. No one wants a coach that doesn't care about winning but nor do they want a coach willing to win at any cost, particularly at the cost of an individual player.

If they are really playing favorites or helping kids that are not as good as other to quit the team then they are missing a major opportunity to be a positive role model and long-term positive influence on the lives of the young men on their teams. By not acting in that capacity with every player on the team (whether they give them a lot of play or not) they are making a big mistake and quite possibly making a long-term negative influence on the lives of some of the players. I hope for the sake of the young men on their teams, these coaches are acting with the long-term in mind.


something that you must teach young athletes but never at all costs and certainly not at the cost

How disappointing... I thought this was going to be about a disturbing dance in which teenage girls brought their dads as dates.

Missed Opportunity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SC Parent, I heard rumor that a player recently
> quit varsity after having a conversation with
> Luther about what his role was on the team. Sounds
> like maybe there was some truth to it. I can also
> only imagine the coaches at this school have
> missed the point of coaching youth sports, which
> is what you are still talking about at the high
> school level.
>
> Whether they like it or not they are developing
> people, not just baseball players. Something like
> 4% of little league players are good enough to
> make a high school team and 4% of those good
> enough to make a college team and so on until you
> get down to a fraction of a % that actually make
> it the big show in professional baseball. While a
> good win/loss record is something great to have on
> your resume as a high school coach, it means
> nothing in the big picture. No one wants a coach
> that doesn't care about winning but nor do they
> want a coach willing to win at any cost,
> particularly at the cost of an individual player.
>
> If they are really playing favorites or helping
> kids that are not as good as other to quit the
> team then they are missing a major opportunity to
> be a positive role model and long-term positive
> influence on the lives of the young men on their
> teams. By not acting in that capacity with every
> player on the team (whether they give them a lot
> of play or not) they are making a big mistake and
> quite possibly making a long-term negative
> influence on the lives of some of the players. I
> hope for the sake of the young men on their teams,
> these coaches are acting with the long-term in
> mind.
>
>
> something that you must teach young athletes but
> never at all costs and certainly not at the cost


Missed Opportunity it is people like you that will be responsible for us all speaking chinese in 30 years. at the varsity level it is about winning and losing too quote Herm Edwards "you play to win the game," and if they are playing favorites they are still having a positive impact in the lives that they are favoring so theres nothing wrong with that.

what we have here is not a coaching issue but a parent issue South County has been one of the more dominent teams in the northern region since the school was built so i dont see much room to complain all i see are parents who's kids are not playing banding together trying to get the coach fired so their kids can play

Seriously you guys have bitched more about this coach who has done extremely well than is reasonable.

Massive Daddyball action at Oakton, where the Cougars are still alive in the regional baseball tournament. Even though they lost like 11 in a row.

Now the Daddyball coach of the JV team is in the varsity dugout.

Stay tuned for more updates, calamities, and ridiculously biased bullshit updates as they occur.

Dad in question: Carson Carroll

Sons: Ty and Chad Carroll

Outcome: With the OHS Cougars blowing hard most of the season, Mr. Carroll is in prime position to take over for the Cougars once Justin Janis is fired.

Is this the same Carrol that moved his family out of Madison to Oakton after he found out that Coach Gjormand "didn't really need his help"?

the same guy that claimed to play in the pro bush leagues?

OMG, oakton parents are really fucked now.

There are some manipulative, control freak parents. They feel they must control everything their children are in. Sports seem to be a big fixation for these parents, but academic clubs and PTAs are prone to the meddling from them too. I feel sorry for the kids, especially as they become teenagers. Who wants to have the parent who must always be in charge?

So...who/where else has control freak parents? Waynewood Elementary!

In the Know Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dad in question: Carson Carroll
>
> Sons: Ty and Chad Carroll
>
> Outcome: With the OHS Cougars blowing hard most
> of the season, Mr. Carroll is in prime position to
> take over for the Cougars once Justin Janis is
> fired.


I think the Daddyball coach Carroll has a third kid on JV. Word is he never budged from batting 2nd or playing SS, even as all the other kids got bounced around from the bench to the lineup. JV team went 4-9 under Carroll.

Not only is daddyball biased, he sucks as a coach. I doubt Janis has much to worry about.

The Carroll family never moved out of the Madison school district to the Oakton school district. They have been where they now are since they moved into the area.

Carson Carroll played at UC-Irvine and in the Yankees' minor league system (and one other team's system) for a few years.

Chad Carroll, his oldest son, is an outstanding player, and has an offer to play collegiately at William and Mary. I don't know much about how the younger sons are doing or progressing.

Just wanted to address some of the ramblings here with actual facts.

Now for some opinion, Carson Carroll is one of the best instructors around, from what I have seen, and also from the reports of many players who have played for him.

Perhaps these boys are good enough that they SHOULD be playing? I would think the kids of a baseball coach WOULD be good. They probably grew up with the sport and obviously have a knowledgable father who have taught them well. Why do you attack the family when these kids are probably deserving to be there? Who cares if the father is a coach? Should we require all coaches to not have children - in fear their children will play and love the sport they coach?

Find a real cause to whine about.

Then you don't know much about Daddyball. Daddyball coaches are there because it's the only way their kids play SS, bat leadoff or cleanup, and never budge from the lineup. I'm not here to bash kids, but truth be told, only one of the Daddyball offspring deserves to be playing. The others have been Daddyballed into the lineup.

As to the comment earlier about Daddyball Oakton being a good coach, you might want to know that several very good ballplayers quit baseball at Oakton last year (Daddyball's first year) and more will quit this year. and its not the bench slugs that quit.

Perhaps not Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then you don't know much about Daddyball.
> Daddyball coaches are there because it's the only
> way their kids play SS, bat leadoff or cleanup,
> and never budge from the lineup. I'm not here to
> bash kids, but truth be told, only one of the
> Daddyball offspring deserves to be playing. The
> others have been Daddyballed into the lineup.
>
> As to the comment earlier about Daddyball Oakton
> being a good coach, you might want to know that
> several very good ballplayers quit baseball at
> Oakton last year (Daddyball's first year) and more
> will quit this year. and its not the bench slugs
> that quit.

The earlier comment that you refer to was not that Carroll was a good coach, but a good instructor. I chose my words carefully, as I have not been able to follow how his team has performed and responded to him. I will stand by my earlier statement. For those who may have quit and are allegedly going to quit (I have heard none of this), it is their loss. Carroll can teach them what they need to know to play at the next level.

If you are choosing your words carefully, then you would know that players don't play for their instructor. They may hit, pitch, field, etc as their instructor taught them to do mechanically, but in the game of baseball, they play for their coach. At the high school level, the coach often calls the pitches, gives the hitters the green light or not on the first fastball, puts the hit and run on, encourages players to hit behind the runner, establishes the lineup, gives the pre-game speech, talks to players as they come off the field and get ready to hit, and many more items.

The older Carroll kid was fine player in the WCAC. His coming to Oakton certainly knocked one kid out of a starting position. The younger one has knocked another out. Whether this younger kid deserves to start is up to the Oakton coaches to decide, but not many freshman start in the Concorde, so he better be really good or I can see why there are sour grapes. So, two kids at least who could have been starters are either not playing much, which could have pushed others who would have been back ups off the team.

The instructor is who gets players to the next level. HS team achievements are great, and are to be aspired to, but college coaches are largely not interested in how well a team is doing, as a general matter.

The best of all worlds is to have a talented instructor who can also get a team to play to their highest potential. Scott Rowland is the poster child for that kind of HS manager, and his shoes are going to be tough to fill. Coach Carroll knows the game at least as well as Coach Rowland, and his challenge, as a JV manager and potentially as the varsity manager, will be getting the kids as a team to respond and win.

It does not sound like you are (yet) accusing Oakton of playing Daddyball with the Carroll kids, and if someone lost a starting role as a result of the transfer of the oldest, why would you put that on Coach Carroll?

After little league no father should be allowed to coach their kid. It seems to me that in most cases a father coaches only when his kid is not very talented. This definitely shouldn't happen at the high school level. It is a shame, but you see it a lot. A lot of NVTBL teams have dad's in the dugout, but in most cases these teams are just bad. I could maybe excuse it at the younger age groups, but at the ODL level it is insane. Carroll has an NVTBL team too, go figure. There are a few more ODL teams with daddy ball in prime form and I heard one of the teams has the biggest whiner dad at South County still making excuses for his kid. Haven't played them yet, but look forward to it.

I'm not accusing, only recognizing the circumstances. I agree Rowland was both talented instructor and talented coach. He worked both roles year round teaching his own players and many others on summer/fall teams. I don't have any personal experience with Carroll to judge on way or other. I'm just recogizing that people can accuse coaches in situation like this no matter what. It's easy to spot the 1-5 best players on these teams, but 3 (or more) reasonably knowledgeable baseball people, let alone hyper parents, might disagree on how to rank the 6-12 kids. Most of these teams don't go beyond that many who really play, so if your kid is not on the field, you probably are griping.

Most of these Daddyball crybabies are just that, crybabies.

Let me guess who the biggest whiner dad is at South County, Harison. He has been holding his sons hand for years and will again do so this summer on his NVTBL team. He complains about everything and always has excuses for his sons poor pitching, which is everytime he faces any quality team.

Perhaps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps these boys are good enough that they
> SHOULD be playing? I would think the kids of a
> baseball coach WOULD be good. They probably grew
> up with the sport and obviously have a
> knowledgable father who have taught them well.

That generally ends with little league. By the time kids are a little older the daddy advantage peters out and you see an average player being boosted by his coach parent.

2012 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me guess who the biggest whiner dad is at
> South County, Harison. He has been holding his
> sons hand for years and will again do so this
> summer on his NVTBL team. He complains about
> everything and always has excuses for his sons
> poor pitching, which is everytime he faces any
> quality team.



Harasin isn't a bad player or kid but his dad does get a little ridiculous. Last year he played legion for 176 and was having an ok season but one game he got absolutely shelled and the coach started yelling yelling and telling him hes pitching like shit. his dad (who had to be the pitching coach even though he doesn't know shit about it) flipped and pulled him from the game/team and we never saw them again. Big Harasin would joke about other players on the team but the minute you did not worship the ground him and his kid walked on he would bitch to no end. I feel bad for his kid it must of been embarrassing

Daddyball success story in Oakton. Research the Werman family, Dad Frank, sons Kyle and Keith. Keith, all of 5'8" and 170 lbs., currently hitting over .400 for UVa as a sophomore, and headed to the NCAA SuperRegional with UVa this weekend. Kyle was no slouch either, walking on at UVa and playing some minor league ball, and now assisting at George Mason. Dad managed/coached Legion team for both sons.

Frank Werman is the exception that proves the rule.

Carson Carroll is the rule.

Rule 1: Daddyball coaches almost always suck, highlighting their kids at the expense of others. Regardless of how much they "know" baseball.

Rule 1a) South County has always been a Daddyball mess in summer ball. Its a tradition. It's a spoiled brat mess during the HS season too. It's not a coincidence.

Werman continues to coach Vienna Legion ball, after his kids have graduated. Too bad he has no influence at over the current Oakton mess.

Daddy ball teams are in every sport and they have ruined HS sports. it's not worht it any more. If the school wants to make budget, cut the sports. They are sooo corrupt anyway.

Good for you..to me that is not Daddy Ball. That is taking an honest interest in your childs interest. Daddy Ball is when "you" think your kid is the best (when he is not) and do whatever it takes to make him become part of a team. The player needs to earn that privelage based on his skills not what his Dad dishes out of his pocket or how many lunches Mom buys the coach!

This boils down to one word......TOWNSEND When will it end????? They need to move!!!!! As soon as Joey is out of HS it'll all be over! YEAH!!!!!!!!

harleygirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This boils down to one word......TOWNSEND When
> will it end????? They need to move!!!!! As
> soon as Joey is out of HS it'll all be over!
> YEAH!!!!!!!!

You're picking on Joey Townsend when we've got 10 more years of spoiled Thompson brats to contend with?

My son played for Carson Carroll - absolutely one of the worst coaches ever. He behaves like a child - throwing temper tantrums, extremely punitive and has no concept of strategy. Under his coaching for a travel team he took 18 of the best players in NoVa and led them into last place - many of who are now all district players... Carroll is the definition of "daddy ball" He even quit his day job to coach HS ball - how sick is that?

You said Chad Carroll has an offer from W&M which I doubt, because everyone knows Chad does not have the grades to get into W&M. Unless Carson decides to take a coaching position there, Chad will not be going to W&M.

Here is my advice - If you kid is playing for Oakton, the best thing you can do is ask Carson, "where are your sons playing?" and pick another position. He has no conscience and boundries when it comes to his sons' playing time.

Another note about Carroll- Chad is good player - not great, Tyler is a nice kid, but has no talent, and the youngest looked good, but not great...

Obviously Carroll is living through his sons. After watching him for 2 seasons (travel ball and HS) I honestly think this guy has some issues.

Yes he is a great instructor and he is a terrible coach - he is blinded by his own predujuces about his own kids. All of whom are.... you guessed it Middle Infielders... go figure.

Carson Carroll always seems to find a way to lose a game - he will keep his kids in despite them going 0-10.

If you look up daddyball in the dictionary- Carson Carrolls face appears along with his 3 boys, Chad, Ty, & Mitch - who must be embarrassed that Dad feels the need to coach them until they graduate HS. Oakton's record this year under the direction of Carson Carroll:

JV - 3-9 Wow he's great!
V- 12 losses in a row -whoopee!

Thanks Coach Carroll. You showed us how to lose and managed to get your sons to play in every inning in every game!! good job.

hey retard Oakton people no one cares about how you guys were good for awhile but now suck. everyone knows the Concorde district is trash now

The previous comment on the Harrison's was spot on. Jon is a good kid and needs to get as far away from his dad as possible. The old man thinks he knows everything and complains no matter where or what he is doing. He is a cancer and will destroy any team his son plays on. He fuels others to complain to justify his excuses. Be careful too, because depending on who he is talking to he is back stabbing someone else. Sorry excuse for a dad, get a job!

Huh??? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> harleygirl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This boils down to one word......TOWNSEND
> When
> > will it end????? They need to move!!!!! As
> > soon as Joey is out of HS it'll all be over!
> > YEAH!!!!!!!!
>
> You're picking on Joey Townsend when we've got 10
> more years of spoiled Thompson brats to contend
> with?

All of the above is correct. These coaches need to go now.

Johnny b bad (June 16)- your post was spot on about Carroll. He and another dad, whose son "transferred" to Oakton (even though he has always lived in the Annandale HS district), have wrecked more budding baseball players careers than anyone can count. These guys epitomize Daddyball. They live vicariously through their sons because they don't have a life of their own.

I have witnessed Carroll coach several different times over the years, with teams ranging from 15U to HS level, and he has the same MO: throw temper tantrums, call players out while they are on the field, and act like a 3-year-old. Oh yeah, and do anything possible to play his own sons (and a couple of other friends' sons) every inning in the skill positions to "showcase" their "abilities." I have also talked with several ex-players, and though you might expect people that have quit his teams to be unhappy, these people have been especially bitter about his lack of class as a coach. Now, as an instructor, he may be OK (I have no direct knowledge of that), but as a coach he is terrible.

Oakton HS has allowed at least 2-3 players to transfer in that are at that High School for one reason and one reason only: to play baseball in a program with a storied tradition. Unfortunately, all they got was playing awful ball under a horrible coach with his own agenda. These people have gotten what they deserve. Unfortunately, they have also taken down some other Oakton kids who aren't playing this game, and deserve to play for their own High School, and instead aren't on the team or aren't playing -- or worse, are playing for a broken-down, losing team with a dysfunctional coach.

Until someone at Oakton (AD, etc.) wakes up and smells the coffee, that program will continue to deteriorate.

harleygirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Daddy ball teams are in every sport and they have
> ruined HS sports. it's not worht it any more. If
> the school wants to make budget, cut the sports.
> They are sooo corrupt anyway.


Actually, that isn't true at all. While there are Daddyball issues in HS, they are very few and far between, which is why they are worth calling out, as in this thread.

Once you get past the ridiculous Daddyball bullshit in Little League and summer travel ball, you should expect an unbiased HS coach who gets paid to develop players and win. In most High Schools, that is the case. We aren't talking politics here--life is politics, after all----we're talking DADDYBALL. Very rare in Northern Region HS baseball. But I could tell you some hair-raising tales of DADDYBALL antics in Vienna, Reston, Falls Church and McLean Little Leagues! I'm sure its everywhere at that level, i just know those programs the best. And summer ball is impossible to predict---if DADDY can convince 12 other kids/parents to join his team, well, buyer beware, right?

I'm glad to see others weighing in on the Oakton and South County DADDYBALL issues. Maybe it's time those programs took a long look at themselves and made some changes. We shall see. My bet is they won't.

The problem with Dads running a HS programs is they lose all objectivity. Their son becomes the entire focus - the other kids are merely fillers. As a parent, when you watch a game, who are you focusing on? Your own kid. So why would it be any different if you are the coach?

South County has a real mess with 2 dads in the dug out, and I think Grasso's nephew is in the progam? not sure and they had Fitzgerald at one point. It can't be good. This seems to be the standard for SC - no wonder everyone is disappointed with Luther. He can't say no to Dads. The program will never reach it's full potential until Luther sets the bar higher.

I feel for the parents at Oakton. It is a no win situation - both figuratively and literally. Carroll has inserted himself into the program and my bet is he there to stay. If Carroll really wants to coach, he should find a different HS. But I doubt that he coaching because of his love of coaching, more for his own agenda of promoting his own boys. Such a diservice to his kids... he thinks they can't make it without him.

All the problems with baseball at South County start and end with Luther. He had the same problems at Hayfield.

I wouldn't say all the problems at SC start and end with Luther. And this probably applies to most high school programs and sports. The problems start with parents who think high school baseball should be played like little league. Most of the complaining comes from parents who think their kid should get playing time no matter what. There is no way in a three month period any high school coach can teach a kid to play at the level needed to compete. The talent needed, if there, would have been developed in previous years and during off season work. You can't pick up a baseball and bat in January and think you can play at the high school level. I can say for a fact that Luther gave most kids a chance to prove themselves early on and then made the appropriate moves. There is no doubt that most of the time the 9 best players were on the field. Life is tough and in anything you do, you have to earn it and not have it handed to you.

I think a lot of the complaining would be eliminated if they cut the team size down in all team sports. The problem is parents complain if there kid is cut. So, the high school's allow more kids on the team and that is fine as long as the same parents don't complain about playing time.

Tell your kid to work harder if he wants to play and quit whning. Or if you are going to complain about playing time, then don't tryout for the team. It would make your life more enjoyable and it would make the season more enjoyable not having to hear the constant, invalid, claims that "johnny" should be playing.

It looks like Luther found the Underground! Welcome!

High School Parent -
Here's another solution - get the Dads out of the dug out.

I have always thought if you don't do stupid shit, your critics become supporters. Many coaches have figured this out... Luther is still learning.

in high school baseball JV everyone should play its developmental and is there to eventually help varsity out. Varsity all that matters honestly is winning. you field the team that you think gives you the best chance of winning.

Oh and Oakton people seriously start your own topic. we in the patriot district dont care about how yall were good then the Wermans

Seriously, Jenkem, just fuck off.

You South county whining parents have disgraced yourselves one too many times in this forum. None of you idiots can see the forest for the trees--whining about playing time, when all the real forum discussion has been about Luther's behavior, your star players' behavior, and your idiot dads in the South County dugout.
The Oakton parents have as much right to weigh in here as you do--more, even, since you're such a fucking retard. Go sit down and play with your bat.

JV baseball is NOT developmental. If your lousy kid can't play by the time he's 15, he aint never gonna be able to play. JV is about winning too--that coach has a job to do, and losing most of his games so "shitty Johhny" can go up and strike out isn't gonna cut it. After all, his future varsity players are playing against other future varsity players....not kids who couldn't make the Tiddlywinks roster. If your kid can't play in JV, read the fucking tea leaves already!

So, just fuck off....and leave the discussion to people who know what the hell they're talking about.

Capisce?

Jenkem is a nutsack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seriously, Jenkem, just fuck off.
>
> You South county whining parents have disgraced
> yourselves one too many times in this forum. None
> of you idiots can see the forest for the
> trees--whining about playing time, when all the
> real forum discussion has been about Luther's
> behavior, your star players' behavior, and your
> idiot dads in the South County dugout.
> The Oakton parents have as much right to weigh in
> here as you do--more, even, since you're such a
> fucking retard. Go sit down and play with your
> bat.



First of all of all I wanna clear this up I am by no mean a nutsack. If anything I'm a prostate but that's another arguement. I am not a parent therefore I can't be a south county parent however Oakton is still gay as hell they aren't even in the real NoVa they just live next too us so they think they are.

But if JV is not for devloping players for the varsity team then what is it for? Why have a JV team then. Too say if your not any good by age 15 then you'll never be any good is completely false. Think Michael Jordan as the greatest example of this. The problem with baseball in northern Virginia is not dads getting involved more than they need too. It's dicks like you that say if your not any good then you should quit because you'll never be any good. Just think of all the 15 year old phenoms that are supposed to be the greatest thing ever then by age 17 they haven't gotten any better and everyone has passed them.
>
> JV baseball is NOT developmental. If your lousy
> kid can't play by the time he's 15, he aint never
> gonna be able to play. JV is about winning
> too--that coach has a job to do, and losing most
> of his games so "shitty Johhny" can go up and
> strike out isn't gonna cut it. After all, his
> future varsity players are playing against other
> future varsity players....not kids who couldn't
> make the Tiddlywinks roster. If your kid can't
> play in JV, read the fucking tea leaves already!
>
> So, just fuck off....and leave the discussion to
> people who know what the hell they're talking
> about.
>
> Capisce?

Why can't it be both? Dad's shouldn't be coaching their kids in High School and if you aren't any good you will get limited time. That's the way is SHOULD work.

As far as JV developing players, If the player is worth developing he will see more time. It's fairly easy to determine the cans and cannots in most programs. The only obsticle is when a Dad is the coach. Obviously, he is going to give his kid more opportunities. If a player is not that good, why put the time into developing him?

I'm not complaining about field time for my kid, because he gets plenty - because he works at it year round. I think it is common sense to eliminate Dads at the HS level, then you if your kid sucks, there is no one to blame.

BTW my kid does not go to either Oakton or SCSS. But we are in the Patriot District.

Jenkem: "I am not a parent therefore I can't be a south county parent however Oakton is still gay as hell they aren't even in the real NoVa they just live next too us so they think they are. "

Holy shit, dude. You're an idiot. I didn't even read the rest of what you typed, because you're just that stoooopid.

Oakton isn't in Northern VA? Did you have a bodily malfunction on your map and up Vienna, VA? I'd petty much say Oakton is in the middle of NoVA.

Please, never become a parent. EVER.

i mean geographically yeah its in the northern part of Virginia. But as far as NoVa goes its Arlington Alexandria F.C.-Annandale, Springfield, and McClean. Like Oakton just breeds douchebaggery i mean its as cool as a used tampon. I'd rather go to a creed concert than play in the Concorde district or be from that whole western virginia area and the orange line sucks balls. i almost wish we could just give maryland that entire part of the state but maryland is gayer for sure. If Oakton never existed would anyone really notice or care? i doubt it. If i had to relive the memory of putting my dog down when I was 5 every day or move to Oakton I still wouldnt move there.

I'm in So Calif, my 9 year old son lives to play baseball, he's one of the best kids in his little league and he works his ass off because he loves it. He was one of 2 nine year olds drafted up to the 10-11 year old Minor A team and hit .652 with a .758 OBP, 41 stolen bases, the most defensive outs at catcher, 3rd & shortstop and was 1 of 2 nine year olds chosen to play on the 10-11 year old All Star team. What's funnier is that my son is the smallest one on the team, but he is one of the best players because of his hustle and he's got his head in the game. More importantly my son is a great kid with an amazing work ethic, incredible attitude, he's supportive of the other players, when he was pitching and hit the batter, he walked to home plate, put his arm around the kid who he hit and apologized.

When he was selected for the All Star team, the manager told the parents that the kids had to earn their positions and that the best kids would get the best positions, period. I should have realized that he was spouting bullshit because 10 players came from 2 teams and only 3 other players came from 4 other teams.

I have always coached or managed little league because my son is into it and I volunteered to help in any way with the All Star team. I tell the parents & kids on my teams, that I'm there to make sure the these kids have an enjoyable & educational little league experience because they've only got a few years to play, until 90% of them have to find other sports. When I get parents who say "lets have fun" or "it doesn't matter if we win, as long as we have fun", it really pisses me off, because to a kid, losing to your friends in school isn't fun. While I focus on making baseball enjoyable to everyone, by the same token, winning is fun and like I tell my teams, "What do you call a happy loser...... a loser".

Baseball is a game of failure and learning to accept, deal with, then excelling in the face of failure. If you failed 7 of 10 times at anything in your job, hobby or pretty much anything else, you'd quit or be fired. However, if you fail at hitting a baseball 7 of 10 times, you're making millions of dollars.

Anyways, my son was so excited to play with the other All Star players from the league, but I soon found out that Daddy Ball reared it's ugly head and the manager destroyed our hopes of making a decent showing in the All Star tournament. It was not only embarassing, but what he did in the games was a sin and destroyed the desire to play baseball next year for these kids.

Our first game was 12-0 and the game was stopped at the end of the 4th inning by mercy. We had 1 hit, no walks, 15-17 defensive errors and the coaches kid was pitching. It was beyond humiliating for these kids to have the worst players being put in at key positions and it cost us the game. The supposed superstar catcher who played instead of my son, threw the ball away 5 times to allow 6 runs to score in the 2nd & third inning.

The 2nd game was even worse, with the managers kid throwing batting practice to the other team, when our 3 best pitchers were in centerfield or the dugout. It was 10-0 at the end of the first inning with 4 walks, a few singles and 2 home runs. We made 15-20 defensive errors because the manager & coaches kids were put at 3rd, short, pitching & catching and we lost the 2nd game 26-4 by mercy in the 4th inning. The coaches kids at 3rd & short were so bad, that they both had 4-5 errors each, plus all the easy plays they blew at those positions and it was an insult to the best players, that these kids were allowed to play those positions.

My son was played for 3 innings in both games at 3rd & 2nd (a position he never played before) and made 5 defensive outs and assisted on 2 other outs. My son worked his ass off at 3-4 hour practices for 8 days straight, to be the best he could be, only to have the manager ruin the teams All Star appearance. The sick part is he knows his kid would never be able to make another All Star team when he moves up to majors next year.

I'm so tired of these ego driven assholes, who don't care about anyone else or the team as a whole. I was told by 5 kids on the team, that they want to give up playing baseball because it's a waste of their time to work so hard, then be put on the bench because the coaches son, who is the laziest kid in the world, gets to play the best positions.

Sorry for the confusion and to clarify, my son played a TOTAL of 3 innings in the 2 games of the All Star series and did not play 3 innings in each game.

The best example of Daddy Ball is Cal Ripkin. His Daddy got him into the Hall of Fame. Certinly he would have been benched a game at least once by a real coach.
Only in Daddy Ball can you have two brothers who stink at the time start in a MLB game.


Thanks Daddy for putting me above another player who deserved to play, Your adoring sons,

Cal & Bill

To the little league coach our son souds like a good kid and a good player, I wish him luck in the future. Hopefully he will keep that work ethic.
You are right baseball is a game of failure. people will fail at all levels.
JV is about developement but the coaches do get paid to win. I spent 1 season as a JV coach and went 19-1 They day afyter the last game my phone started ringing and did not stop for two days with varsity offers. I choose a school out of the dist my son played in to avoid the Daddy ball comments In two years my teams went 14- 6 and 18-2 and finsihed in the states. the phone started again and this time it was colleges . i now work for Minor league Sf team as traveling instructor. I still work with the school team my youngest plays for but only in fall and winter. He was a freshman this year and played alot of varsity but when your winter work outs have 2 or 3 pros and bunch of minor players there the team benfits plus he is always arround these guys in the winter and when school is out. He did not start and worked hard and never said anything to his coach until the assistant recogniozed me from my playing days. He ended up hitting 398 but as i said was not a starter or regular player. I stay away from team during tryouts and do not go near the dug out if i can be at his games. I am the same way with his travel team. I think dad in dugout is counter productive.

It is a shame when dads are involved at the level described above to ensure their children get playing time, position time, multiple batting opportunites, etc.... I feel badly for the children because at some point dads won't be able to be there to make things happen for them, and it will be a hard fall. I feel badly for all those deserving children who work hard,play hard and give all they have to the game and are shifted to another position or cast aside because overbearing dads have decided they want their children on a certain team, with certain players, in certain positions, or at certain tournaments. To those dads...try to put yourself in the shoes of the other player who is adversely affected by your power move.... they are probaly 12, 13, 16, 17 years old kids. If your child is really that good, then people will notice and you don't have to go to extreme lengths to make things happen for them.

After reading all of these posts and knowing Carson Carroll close to 30 years and watching him play professionally day in and day out these posts do not surprise me. He had a temper back then...throwing bats and helmets into the dug out during his days with Visalia, Miami and the Yanks. Those up above did not condone those actions from him. He was a very conscientious player that talents on the field were overlooked. Perhaps this is the reason why he lives through his sons. In my experience as a teacher of 22 years I have witnessed "Daddies and Mommies" that live through their children regardless of the sport they play. I try to convey the most important message that students' education comes before sports. If the kid doesn't have the GPA then they won't be accepted into a university regardless of the talent they possess on the field, etc. Forgive them for they know not what they do.

Carson Carroll never grew up. It has to be 40 years since he has played pro ball, one would think that with time, comes wisdom. I have seen him yell, throw hats, kick helmets, roll on the ground and drop to his knees while coaching a game, Never once have I witnessed that from the players he coaches... after all someone has to be mature.

This is a letter that I sent to the athletic department of a high school that was guilty of, among other things, nepotism. The letter addressed the father-coaching issue. In my opinion, the teachers union saw to it that it never was acted on.

The letter:


"If the school's athletic department wants to positively address issues of fairness - and

perception of fairness - in its sports programs, it can take a big step in that direction, simply and quickly, by ending

the practice of allowing fathers to coach the team of which their own child is a member. This practice constitutes a

conflict of interest, a conflict of interest that involves the most powerful of instincts - PARENTAL. Schools,

on the front lines of having to deal with the parental instincts on a daily basis, understand this. They understand this

better than anyone. Father-coaching, a conflict of interest involving the most powerful of instincts, fraught with potential for abuse,

in putting in charge of a team a person who will inevitably have to make a choice between either hurting the team or

hurting his own child, invites abuse.



By way of illustrating, and at risk of stating the obvious, let's assume a program is floundering, that its team is suffering

defeat after defeat, and that this is happening because the program's rigor needs to be intensified. Why, in such a case,

should this program have to suffer a coach who, as he considers meeting this need, has to wrangle with the

possibility that in meeting it he might hurt his own child. Let's face it, greater rigor certainly WILL hurt his

own child if his child is already on the cusp of quitting because the program's rigor for him is already too great.

Will not more strenuous practices, tougher competition, and greater off-season work only make his child MORE

want to throw in the towel? Given this, when this happens, can administration count on the father-coach to act for

the team and not for his child? Parental instincts are indeed extremely powerful. They are extremely powerful and

they do not miraculously disappear when a parent becomes a coach. I was a father-coach, I had them, and I couldn't

always control them.



At risk of again stating the obvious, I'll make the point another way.


What if you are a parent of a child on a team coached by a father-coach? What if your child and the

father-coach's child are in competition for the same position? What if your child and the father-coach's child

are in competition for a same special award? What if the father-coach covets for his child that position?

What if he covets that same special award?


What if in the past the father-coach's child ALWAYS FINISHED SECOND TO YOUR CHILD?


Parents can be competitive. Sometimes this competitiveness degenerates to jealousy. With competitiveness

degenerating to jealousy, and this is where it can get ugly, what if you then start to see signs of an agenda by the

jealous father-coach, a personal agenda, a personal agenda pursued deviously, with alliances and manipulation,

and a scrutiny and undermining, a scrutiny and undermining designed to destroy the desire, self-confidence,

and spirit of the child in the way - YOUR child?




If one argues that when this happens a parent can speak out I assert that parents know that coaches have

been known to retaliate and that, therefore, they realize it can be a perilous course to speak out. Justifiably or unjustifiably,

parents do not trust they can speak out, at least not candidly and safely, never mind respectably and factually.

Furthermore, as great as this hesitation - or fear - may be generally, it's magnified when the problem

exists in a small town, a small town where there are far fewer realistic options to resort to when speaking out

has resulted in alienating the coach. Equivalent alternative public and private schools tend to not be in abundance

in small towns. Add to this a small town's generally greater social, political, and economic constraints - schools are

big employers and "big mouths" don't get hired - and one should not have to strain to see how when this happens,

when parents are faced with abuse of power by a coach that affects their child, they tend to look for reasons to

not speak out. Looking for reasons to not speak out, choosing to remain silent, parents "eat it". They eat it, and

the situation continues, to the detriment of not just the child in the way, but to also to the team, the athletic

department, and the school in general.




Ending the practice of father-coaching will not solve all the problems involved with maintaining fairness - of

"politics" - in interscholastic sports in our athletic department. Agreed, it would do much to prevent nepotism, but it would do nothing

to, for example, rectify cronyism or graft, or any other abuses that can adversely affect inter-scholastic sports everywhere.

However, despite this, ending father-coaching - at the school level - will certainly solve one specific and significant problem, and, in solving

it, advance one of athletic administration's most noble of charges, that being administrating for fairness. When our athletic department does this our sports will be better, better even despite the loss the many

father-coaches who, as they coached, effectively and admirably managed their conflict of interest.



Athletes who courageously work hard, follow adult guidance, who trust adults

to be fair - who in some cases grow up going to sleep with their uniform on - are entitled to athletic

administration's making serious efforts to not have to resort to father-coaching. Athletes - ALL athletes - are entitled

to this because all athletes deserve a coach who it can be certain is putting the team first, and all athletes deserve a

coach who it can be certain is always hoping they - EVERY ONE OF THEM - do well.

I agree as a coach who has coached on all levels to include college and as a paid coach now, I have turned down offers because one of my son's plays Not only at the same school but also in the District of the school he plays at. For two reasons If I coach at his school it will always be said he is only playing because of his dad no matter what his ability. Two if I coach at a different school in the same Dist. it still can be said and his coach might be acuused of favoring him, or just the opsite might not treat him well because of me.