Now if you will excuse me, I am going to Costco.

handgun owner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a question, if I want to open carry, does
> it have to be in a holster, or can I walk around
> with the gun in my hand?



Holstered, holding it in your hand is brandishing.

Now if you will excuse me, I am going to Costco

Repo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just throwing this out there. A friend mine had a
> theory as to why some guys feel the need to carry
> guns around. She swore it was because the guys
> were compensating for small dicks and trying to
> prove manhood. I can't say true or false but she
> said from her experience it was %90 true.

Is, was, and always will be a stupid theory. They have nothing to do with each other.

Some people carry guns because they're scared. Some because they feel powerless and want to feel powerful. Some because they are insecure. And some because they're taking responsibility for their safety and that of their family.

This has always been a red herring that's nothing more than insulting people you disagree with.

FoolSmacker Wrote:
> The "unconforable" feeling that these people get
> does not come from me or my gun. It comes from
> their own emotions and reactions. I can't control
> that.

You can't control that; but you can drop the farce and recognize that your conduct DOES make them uncomfortable; not their feelings. You KNOW that other people feel AFRAID because you have a gun. They are afraid because they don't know you, don't know your intentions, don't know how skilled or responsible you are, and don't know if you're trained in retention of that firearm. Frankly, I don't either. So it makes ME nervous, too...and I HAVE A CHP. You KNOW it, and you do it anyway. Which means you're perfectly happy SCARING them.

What does that say about you?

Kardinal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Repo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just throwing this out there. A friend mine had
> a
> > theory as to why some guys feel the need to
> carry
> > guns around. She swore it was because the guys
> > were compensating for small dicks and trying to
> > prove manhood. I can't say true or false but
> she
> > said from her experience it was %90 true.
>
> Is, was, and always will be a stupid theory. They
> have nothing to do with each other.
>



True, but if you see a guy carrying a 9mm, and then see a guy sporting a S&W 500 with a seven inch barrel, you have to wonder.

What I do know and feel about people like the op comes from visiting some of the gun owner forums. A family friend has turned into a nut. Quite a few are respectable people who enjoy guns. I got no problem with that. I have no problems seeing guns out and about in rural areas.

But Chantilly? Really? It is so damned dangerous in Chantilly.

There are far too many nutjobs on those websites who are stocking up and trying to encourage more of this 2a confrontation crap because they think 1. the end times are a comin either based on religious beliefs or idiots who don't understand science and think the movie 2012 is real or 2. think Obama is the devil and is magically going to make all the ammo disappear.

Stupid. Stock up all you want. I don't care. Bankrupt your family and spend every penny you have buying crap and digging bunkers. If you break laws I hope de gubmint comes to get you. Just know you oc nuts, whenever I see you in public, I don't see a manly man or a strong woman, I see a scared little child who was picked on too much.

Kardinal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Repo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just throwing this out there. A friend mine had
> a
> > theory as to why some guys feel the need to
> carry
> > guns around. She swore it was because the guys
> > were compensating for small dicks and trying to
> > prove manhood. I can't say true or false but
> she
> > said from her experience it was %90 true.
>
> Is, was, and always will be a stupid theory. They
> have nothing to do with each other.

"from her experience it was %90 true." She went through boyfriends about every three months. Guys bend over backward to date her and kiss her ass. I have no reason to believe she was making it.

EndlessIdjuts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But Chantilly? Really? It is so damned dangerous
> in Chantilly.

Tell that to the families and victims of the Westfields police station shooting. Guess what, he was taken down by lawful firearm carriers.


> There are far too many nutjobs on those websites
> who are stocking up

And if you want to believe that anyone believing in second amendment rights must obviously agree with the "nutjobs" then no one can stop you.


> Stupid. Stock up all you want. I don't care.
> Bankrupt your family and spend every penny you
> have

Finally, a statement that actually acknowledges people can take whatever action they want considering constitutional behavior as long as it falls within constitutional behavior.



> whenever I see you in public, I
> don't see a manly man or a strong woman, I see a
> scared little child who was picked on too much.

I don't care what you see, but if I saved the life of you or one of your family because an actual bad guy threatened your life I hope you'll at least have the decency to say "thank you" whether or not your opinion of open carry in Virginia is changed. It happens. Google it. But if God forbid that happens and I save your life being a "scared little child" I'm not cleaning up your "brave non-carrying citizen" underwear following such a harrowing incident.

Costco can have a no guns policy. I am not so sure that business' are against guns as they are scared of liability issues. Suppose a customer is allowed to bring a gun into the store. A shootout takes place and an innocent person is hit.

Any lawyer worth a crap will go after Costco arguing they could have prevented it by having a no guns policy. The lawyer knows they can only get a small amount from the shooter so they go after the big company.

While I will say the shooter should be the only one held responsible that never stopped a lawyer from suing.

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't care what you see, but if I saved the life
> of you or one of your family because an actual bad
> guy threatened your life I hope you'll at least
> have the decency to say "thank you" whether or not
> your opinion of open carry in Virginia is changed.
> It happens. Google it. But if God forbid that
> happens and I save your life being a "scared
> little child" I'm not cleaning up your "brave
> non-carrying citizen" underwear following such a
> harrowing incident.

What should we say if you happen to kill my little kid because your gun misfires or poor safety. Google it. Easier to google gun safety issues where a gun accidentally goes off and kills some family member or friend.

Man Cleaning Gun Shoots Two of His Kids In Richmond

Investigators believe a father handling his gun accidentally shot and critically injured two of his young children in the family's Highland Springs apartment this morning.

"Apparently the father had the gun and was either cleaning it or something to that effect," said Henrico Police Chief Henry W. Stanley.

The children, ages 8 and 22 months, suffered life-threatening injuries, according to police. They remain hospitalized at VCU Medical Center following surgery.

Henrico police are still investigating the circumstances of the shooting and have not settled on a definitive explanation for what happened in the Jackson Square apartment complex off Wales Drive.

The shooting occurred shortly before 9:30 a.m. Police said that following the discharge of the weapon, the father gathered up the wounded 22-month-old child and rushed out the door to go to the hospital, apparently not realizing that his 8-year-old child had also been wounded.

Around 9:30 a.m., Henrico police were called to the apartment by a 14-year-old girl who lives there who reported gunshot injuries to the 8-year-old.

At least three other children were home at the time. Police did not say whether they were all related.

Officials said there was no sign of break-in or forced entry to the family's corner apartment unit, the first in its row of yellow, four-bedroom triplexes, which rent for around $900 a month and are located adjacent to a comfortable single-family home subdivision in Confederate Hills.

"It's quiet, real quiet," said resident Chris Johnson, who lives down the row from the apartment where the shooting occurred.

"It's a nice neighborhood, that's why everybody is so shocked over this," added Johnson, 16, who attends Highland Springs High School with the 14-year-old girl who called police.

Pg whatever

Your quote says everything...

"I don't care what you see, but if I saved the life of you or one of your family because an actual bad guy threatened your life I hope you'll at least have the decency to say "thank you" whether or not your opinion of open carry in Virginia is changed. It happens. Google it. But if God forbid that happens and I save your life being a "scared little child" I'm not cleaning up your "brave non-carrying citizen" underwear following such a harrowing incident."

Your dream is to be the HERO. I'm sure it's a huge fantasy of yours. You're scared and have turned that into wanting to be the much loved super hero. You're not, and I have a better chance of being hit by lightning 5 times than having you ever "save" anyone in my family. The truth is if anything starts hitting the fan, much more than likely it is going to be one of the much maligned police force who helps me and not you.

I'd like to know how people manage to shoot people while cleaning a gun. You can't clean a loaded gun. You have to unload and disassemble it.

Annon Imous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd like to know how people manage to shoot people
> while cleaning a gun. You can't clean a loaded
> gun. You have to unload and disassemble it.

That's when it goes off. When they are about to start cleaning it.

PgEnsIsAnIdjut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your dream is to be the HERO. I'm sure it's a
> huge fantasy of yours.

It isn't. I hope I never have to hold a gun except at a range or while storing it. Accidents can happen, that's life. Ban cars or something else that isn't a constitutional right before you try to ban guns over accidents that happen 1% of the frequency of auto accidents (if that).

I know I won't change anyone's mind here, but know you aren't going to change mine no matter how many names you call me. And I have never open carried and I'm catching such flack, weird. People who defend rights of others are usually scorned, it comes with the territory of being in the right and that doesn't bother me.

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kardinal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Repo Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Just throwing this out there. A friend mine
> had
> > a
> > > theory as to why some guys feel the need to
> > carry
> > > guns around. She swore it was because the
> guys
> > > were compensating for small dicks and trying
> to
> > > prove manhood. I can't say true or false but
> > she
> > > said from her experience it was %90 true.
> >
> > Is, was, and always will be a stupid theory.
> They
> > have nothing to do with each other.
> >
>
>
>
> True, but if you see a guy carrying a 9mm, and
> then see a guy sporting a S&W 500 with a seven
> inch barrel, you have to wonder.


Lol. It's funny, because even for wildnerness protection, I believe that a .357 Magnum is the biggest sidearm you'll ever need, and I was taught that growing up. Some people swear that you need a .500, or a Casull .454, or even a .460 S&W, and when I think of handguns that big, I'm wondering wtf the point is anymore. If you carry a .500 S&W, you might as well be packing a bush rifle (Although I have to admit that the Bear protection package they sell it in for bush pilots is appealing, if that's the only firearm you'll likely bring with you on flights).

For around town carry, I think I might even leave the S&W .357 Magnum at .38 Special loadings, just because it's most likely all you'd ever need around here. Either way, I wouldn't load it hot. Generally though, my around town carry choice would be the Hi-Power Browning 9mm.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

PgEnsIsAnIdjut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pg whatever
>
> Your quote says everything...
>
> "I don't care what you see, but if I saved the
> life of you or one of your family because an
> actual bad guy threatened your life I hope you'll
> at least have the decency to say "thank you"
> whether or not your opinion of open carry in
> Virginia is changed. It happens. Google it. But if
> God forbid that happens and I save your life being
> a "scared little child" I'm not cleaning up your
> "brave non-carrying citizen" underwear following
> such a harrowing incident."
>
> Your dream is to be the HERO. I'm sure it's a
> huge fantasy of yours. You're scared and have
> turned that into wanting to be the much loved
> super hero. You're not, and I have a better
> chance of being hit by lightning 5 times than
> having you ever "save" anyone in my family. The
> truth is if anything starts hitting the fan, much
> more than likely it is going to be one of the much
> maligned police force who helps me and not you.


So says the individual who's never had to actually fire on someone.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> For around town carry, I think I might even leave
> the S&W .357 Magnum at .38 Special loadings, just
> because it's most likely all you'd ever need
> around here. Either way, I wouldn't load it hot.
> Generally though, my around town carry choice
> would be the Hi-Power Browning 9mm.


A 45 ACP is the largest handgun caliber I own, and even that I consider excessive for most defensive situations. When I have carried a handgun in my car, I always take my Model 10; 38 +P is all I need.

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ThePackLeader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > For around town carry, I think I might even
> leave
> > the S&W .357 Magnum at .38 Special loadings,
> just
> > because it's most likely all you'd ever need
> > around here. Either way, I wouldn't load it
> hot.
> > Generally though, my around town carry choice
> > would be the Hi-Power Browning 9mm.
>
>
> A 45 ACP is the largest handgun caliber I own, and
> even that I consider excessive for most defensive
> situations. When I have carried a handgun in my
> car, I always take my Model 10; 38 +P is all I
> need.


tough talk from an internet wee man!

I love how you anti-gun people prefer to be victims. "It never happens" LOL. Tell that to the victims of almost any crime. I do believe that training is ESSENTIAL and REALLY don't like the idea of some 19 year old carrying a pistol at all. (I hope to god that you are military) If you are trained in the use of your weapon, then you know that you are much better off tactically if you have it concealed. It is stupid to think that by open carrying, you have the advantage. But hey, open carry if you want to. I am a believer that it should be harder to obtain a CCP Nationwide, but, that is a slippery slope.

Doesn't Matter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a believer that it
> should be harder to obtain a CCP Nationwide, but,
> that is a slippery slope.


Like Maryland, where you can only get a permit if you have documented death threats against you, and even then it isn't guaranteed that you will get one.

glockhead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm an open flamboyant homosexual and carry a
> weapon so people don't pick on me.


Did you have to put that case of Keilbasa back?

K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I'd rather have my gun and not need it than not
> have it and need it"? Are you talking about
> COSTCO? Exactly how often are you going to need a
> gun at COSTCO? Or, where? Best Buy? Wegmann's?
> Macy's? The park? The movies? A concert?

Hey, VA Tech Student, how often are you going to need a gun in class? Hey Westroads Mall shopper, why would you possibly need to carry a weapon in a Mall?


> Do you frequently find yourself in the middle of a
> sudden gunfight, with no weapon for protection?

Do you frequently get warnings of when and where some homocidal maniac is going to strike?


> Don't even bother sending me a handful of
> instances when a gun MIGHT have come in handy.

In other words, "Don't distract me with facts. I've made up my mind, and you'll just confuse me."



> The vast majority of people live their entire lives
> without ever being in that situation.

True, and the vast majority of people's cars will never catch fire. But I'm still keeping an extinguisher in my car, just in case.

---------------------------------
Who knows from whence he came, and who knows where he goes, dot dot dot.

Are you retarded? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for clearing that up. Ahhh...it's their
> own emotion and reactions, got it!
>
> Your gun is creating those "emotions" and
> "reactions". Your dog analogy is way off. (Plus,
> dogs aren't allowed in Costco or 99% of other
> stores)

No. A gun is an inanimate object. It has no power over people's minds. Reactions to external influences are formed in the mind, based on upbringing, past experiences, and a host of other influences. Thus the dog analogy. Whether or not dogs are allowed in stores is beside the point. Some people fear guns. Some people fear dogs. Some people fear the dark.


> I would think that if you're asked to leave a
> crowded store because you're carrying a firearm on
> your hip, it's common sense to leave without
> questioning or complaining.

I agree. If that is the store policy, which should be posted at the entrance. As far as we know, the OP did exactly that.

---------------------------------
Who knows from whence he came, and who knows where he goes, dot dot dot.

You guys never expect to get in an car accident, right? But you usually wear your seatbelt, right? Why is that? To increase your chance of survival if you happen to get in an accident.

I don't ever expect to get attacked/robbed. But I carry my gun with me, so that in case that ever does happen, I will be able to increase my chance of survival by fighting back.

Annon Imous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd like to know how people manage to shoot people
> while cleaning a gun. You can't clean a loaded
> gun. You have to unload and disassemble it.

Happens frequently. People buy a semi auto because that is what cops carry. They remove the magazine and forget there is a round in the chamber. On some models the trigger has to be pulled before the slide can be removed.

Basic firearm safety is very simple. People just ignore them and suffer the results.

Tim45 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>People buy a semi auto because that is what cops carry.

WTF is that supposed to mean?

gunowner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tim45 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >People buy a semi auto because that is what cops
> carry.
>
> WTF is that supposed to mean?



I'm sure he was generalizing, but if you think about, I'm sure there would be a lot less Glocks and Beretta 92s sold if people didn't see the police carry them.

deleted . wrong thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2010 10:43PM by Lurker..

I am happy to see the debate still continues. On that note, you will be glad to know that I just returned from Costco. I am happy to report there were no random gun fights. I did think I may have to beef with an old lady over the last super pack of Charmin. I just lifted my shirt and scared her away with my gun though. All is well in the world.

XXX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am happy to see the debate still continues. On
> that note, you will be glad to know that I just
> returned from Costco. I am happy to report there
> were no random gun fights. I did think I may have
> to beef with an old lady over the last super pack
> of Charmin. I just lifted my shirt and scared her
> away with my gun though. All is well in the world.


lol!!!

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't Matter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am a believer that it
> > should be harder to obtain a CCP Nationwide,
> but,
> > that is a slippery slope.
>
>
> Like Maryland, where you can only get a permit if
> you have documented death threats against you, and
> even then it isn't guaranteed that you will get
> one.

HELL THE FUCK NO! This is what I mean by slippery slope. Just more strict guidelines on the amount of training required. The more training required= less people who want to carry a gun to be "bad ass" and the people who do follow through with it are much better prepared if the time ever comes to use it, god forbid.

My post was awkward. I was referring to the slippery slope where Maryland borders on the extreme for concealed handgun requirements. I agree with you that a person's competency on a firearm should be held to a higher standard.

Ultimately though, it should be a standard set by the state, not by the federal government. Less chance of a slippery slope that way.

I'm pretty sure the original post is a troll

Quote

There are far too many nutjobs on those websites who are stocking up and trying to encourage more of this 2a confrontation crap because they think 1. the end times are a comin either based on religious beliefs or idiots who don't understand science and think the movie 2012 is real or 2. think Obama is the devil and is magically going to make all the ammo disappear.

i haven't dug a bunker, but i do like to keep a few months worth of dry food on-hand and a couple weeks of water. remember hurricane katrina? you can't count on the "gubmint" to come save your sorry ass if we have a storm that knocks out power for awhile.

and while some folks would just head over to giant and get in fistfights over a can of tuna, i'll be hanging out at home.

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm pretty sure the original post is a troll



I doubt that. Sounds legit to me. Over on the Virginia Open Carry forum, there have been several topics about Costco kicking out people who were open carrying. I know of at least two other incidents that occurred at the Chantilly Costco.

OCDO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trogdor! Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm pretty sure the original post is a troll
>
>
>
> I doubt that. Sounds legit to me. Over on the
> Virginia Open Carry forum, there have been several
> topics about Costco kicking out people who were
> open carrying. I know of at least two other
> incidents that occurred at the Chantilly Costco.

Now that this has deteriorated into a name-calling shouting match, your response has made me wonder, and this is a legitimate question, i'm not trying to bait an argument - Will Open Carry proponents start going to costco to prove a point?

since this is now a pissing contest... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now that this has deteriorated into a name-calling
> shouting match, your response has made me wonder,
> and this is a legitimate question, i'm not trying
> to bait an argument - Will Open Carry proponents
> start going to costco to prove a point?


No, we will not be doing anything like that. If a business decides to ban guns from their establishment, then we prove our point buy simply not giving them our business. So we will just leave them alone.

You may have noticed in the news that we have been at Starbucks a lot. The reason we are there is because they allow guns, so we are showing them our support buy giving them our business. It's the anti-gun people that are there actually protesting and attracting the attention.

I'd like to retract my previous post about businesses being required by law to post a sign stating weapons are not allowed on their property. While they reserve the right to post such signs, the permission to openly carry is implied until the management of the property asks you to leave at which point their permission is no longer granted. So Costco is within their rights to remove you, but should they even bother unless they receive a lot of complaints about someone carrying a weapon? Doesn't Matter's comments are pretty much spot on with regard to 2a's age. If you're 19 I hope to god that you've gone through extensive firearms training.

Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OCDO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A "responsible" gun owner would carry his gun
> with
> > him at all times, even while grocery shopping.
> > He's taking the responsibility to protect
> himself
> > and his family.
>
>
> If I were to go into an establishment and commit
> an armed robbery, the first person I would shoot
> would be you, because you pose the biggest threat
> to my success, but more than likely, you would
> accidently shoot yourself while trying to
> unstrap.
>
> Also, if the cops barge in, the first person they
> will shoot will also be you, so this puts you and
> your family at a much higher risk, IMHO.


You've got a point. The 5-0 will target anyone that is a threat and while being holstered, even OC can be considered a threat until the situation is stable and secure. Hence concealed carry is the better way to go:
- Element of surprise against the thugs
- Less targeting by thugs, won't draw their attention
- Concealed means concealed and that means Costco hacks can't see it and toss you
- Less likelihood to scare the sheeples out there
- Responding coppers won't put you in their crosshairs. If that happens and you're already drawn - drop it, both hands up and listen to what they say to do

Remember: The goal is to avoid having to draw in the first place. The only reason you would need to draw in the first place in Costco is if someone cuts in front of you at one of the food sample stations. No, I mean if someone has you pinned down with deadly force.

I'm all for OC and gun rights, but really, be smart about it. Don't draw unnecessary attention. I realize that's a goal is to make it so the sheeple see it as normal so it doesn't draw attention. But you did get unwanted attention and you lost out on getting a Corona case for $24.99 too. Take into consideration how your dressed, sunglasses, tilted baseball cap etc. You walk in with khakis and a nice tucked shirt and a smart holster, say with a thumb break, you're perceived as no problem.

No, I'm not military. I know several 18 year olds that open carry. I go to the range and shoot just like everyone else. There shouldn't be any training requirement to carry a firearm. This is Virginia people.

reason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys never expect to get in an car accident,
> right? But you usually wear your seatbelt, right?
> Why is that? To increase your chance of survival
> if you happen to get in an accident.
>
> I don't ever expect to get attacked/robbed. But I
> carry my gun with me, so that in case that ever
> does happen, I will be able to increase my chance
> of survival by fighting back.

Same here. I never want to fire it. I'll run like hell to get away from a situation, regardless of ego or being "hard" or whatever it is you kids call it today.

It's about not being in a situation like that to begin with and if for some reason you are, knowing how to diffuse it and walk away with no lead poisoning. It's the ultimate last resort, that's it. Hell, if someone broke into my house I wouldn't shoot them for stealing my TV. It's a big burly TV from the 1990's so if they could carry that bitch out and run, then more power to them. I'd collect insurance and get a new 3d LED set then. That's what I'm talkin 'bout!

2a Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, I'm not military. I know several 18 year olds
> that open carry. I go to the range and shoot just
> like everyone else. There shouldn't be any
> training requirement to carry a firearm. This is
> Virginia people.


This is why anti-gun people hate us.

Gonads & Strife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2a Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No, I'm not military. I know several 18 year
> olds
> > that open carry. I go to the range and shoot
> just
> > like everyone else. There shouldn't be any
> > training requirement to carry a firearm. This
> is
> > Virginia people.
>
>
> This is why anti-gun people hate us.

Why, because I don't like government imposing more restrictions on us, or because I'm young and carry? Or because I'm not military?

FoolSmacker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> K Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "I'd rather have my gun and not need it than
> not
> > have it and need it"? Are you talking about
> > COSTCO? Exactly how often are you going to need
> a
> > gun at COSTCO? Or, where? Best Buy? Wegmann's?
> > Macy's? The park? The movies? A concert?
>
> Hey, VA Tech Student, how often are you going to
> need a gun in class? Hey Westroads Mall shopper,
> why would you possibly need to carry a weapon in a
> Mall?
>
>
> > Do you frequently find yourself in the middle of
> a
> > sudden gunfight, with no weapon for protection?
>
>
> Do you frequently get warnings of when and where
> some homocidal maniac is going to strike?
>
>
> > Don't even bother sending me a handful of
> > instances when a gun MIGHT have come in handy.
>
> In other words, "Don't distract me with facts.
> I've made up my mind, and you'll just confuse
> me."
>
>
>
> > The vast majority of people live their entire
> lives
> > without ever being in that situation.
>
> True, and the vast majority of people's cars will
> never catch fire. But I'm still keeping an
> extinguisher in my car, just in case.

Virginia Tech has operated, in total, for a little over fifty thousand days, which means that one bad day on campus -- and not even really a day, but a couple of hours -- amounts to .00002% of its total operating time.

Westroads Mall has operated for a little over fifteen thousand days, meaning one bad day in its history amounts to .000067% of its total operating time.

The likelihood of some homicidal maniac going nuts and shooting a place up is so infinitesimal, it's laughable -- and so is the argument for carrying a firearm for self protection.

People that moan and scream about their 2nd Amendment rights very conveniently forget the first half of the amendment, about the necessity to keep and bear arms in the service of having a well regulated militia to keep security. Guess what, conservative assholes? That's why we have the police. That's why we have the military.

Show me one example, ONE EXAMPLE, of a legitimate citizen's militia keeping the land secure in the last hundred years of this country -- and I don't mean the bullshit Minutemen Border Patrol. I mean legitimately holding off an outside, foreign threat to our country's safety.

Because you're irresponsible. Go get some training. I don't care how you carry your weapon(s), just that if you ever need to use them that you'll actually know how/when.


Education not regulation.

It isn't that expensive to take a tactical handgun course. I can recommend any number of my friends to you if you and your friends are interested. It's a lot of fun and you'll learn how to do things that you can't practice standing in a booth on a firing line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2010 01:20PM by Gonads & Strife.

I am not irresponsible. I am probably more responsible with firearms than most middle-aged men. I've been handling firearms for 15 years.

2a Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am probably more
> responsible with firearms than most middle-aged
> men.


That could very well be true. I've seen middle-aged men and old men alike do some pretty stupid fucking things on the range. I've also had some retarded bitch point a weapon right at my chest because she turned to ask me a question. I didn't appreciate that... Anyway, it doesn't matter how long you've been handling firearms with daddy in the side yard. Daddy (likely) isn't a tactical weapons expert, so go get some training from a licensed professional with field experience. Like I said, if you want that kind of training just ask.

Gonads & Strife Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> That could very well be true. I've seen
> middle-aged men and old men alike do some pretty
> stupid fucking things on the range. I've also had
> some retarded bitch point a weapon right at my
> chest because she turned to ask me a question. I
> didn't appreciate that... Anyway, it doesn't
> matter how long you've been handling firearms with
> daddy in the side yard. Daddy (likely) isn't a
> tactical weapons expert, so go get some training
> from a licensed professional with field
> experience. Like I said, if you want that kind of
> training just ask.


I plan on taking a class like that sometime in the future. But what I do not like is how you are saying that someone should have to take that training in order to carry a firearm. That's not how it works, at least not here in the great state of Virginia. Ever heard of "Shall not be infringed?"

> >
> > This is why anti-gun people hate us.
>
> Why, because I don't like government imposing more
> restrictions on us, or because I'm young and
> carry? Or because I'm not military?

Based on your previous responses, you're way too immature to even comprehend just how obscenely ignorant that statement is. So, with a little help from Stan Lee and Marvel Comics...

as a wise old man told Peter Parker

"With great power comes great responsibility"

I don't think that the government should be regulating firearms with the exception of assault weapons (honestly...what the fuck are you going to do with an M-60?) but I do think that to carry a weapon you should have training and not the kind of joke/bullshit training that they require now. State regulated training requirements aren't all that much to ask for. Now stop acting like a entitled child and recognize the responsibility that comes with your right to bear arms.


***EDIT*** Just saw that post above from Stan Lee. Good shit. Uncle Ben was a wise man. Good rice, too. ;)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2010 01:19PM by Gonads & Strife.

2a Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gonads & Strife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > That could very well be true. I've seen
> > middle-aged men and old men alike do some
> pretty
> > stupid fucking things on the range. I've also
> had
> > some retarded bitch point a weapon right at my
> > chest because she turned to ask me a question.
> I
> > didn't appreciate that... Anyway, it doesn't
> > matter how long you've been handling firearms
> with
> > daddy in the side yard. Daddy (likely) isn't a
> > tactical weapons expert, so go get some
> training
> > from a licensed professional with field
> > experience. Like I said, if you want that kind
> of
> > training just ask.
>
>
> I plan on taking a class like that sometime in the
> future. But what I do not like is how you are
> saying that someone should have to take that
> training in order to carry a firearm. That's not
> how it works, at least not here in the great state
> of Virginia. Ever heard of "Shall not be
> infringed?"

Which is why Virginia is the East Coast's one stop shop for picking up guns at the gun show loop hole. People come from Maine all the way down to Florida to buy guns here, completely legally, to get around their home state's "oppressive" gun laws.

Give me a break. Just because Virginia does things a certain way doesn't mean that's the way things ought to be. Tradition doesn't equal righteousness.

NovAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tradition doesn't equal
> righteousness.


+1

NovAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People that moan and scream about their 2nd
> Amendment rights very conveniently forget the
> first half of the amendment, about the necessity
> to keep and bear arms in the service of having a
> well regulated militia to keep security. Guess
> what, conservative assholes? That's why we have
> the police. That's why we have the military.

No, go read Heller (SCOTUS). You are simply wrong and that argument is tired and already decided by the courts. Even if we agreed that the "militia" are the only ones who should have access to firearms (even though the second amendment uses the phrase "The People" which in every other location of the Constitution means all citizens), Virginia defines its militia as all citizens capable of bearing arms from age 16 to 55. So if you want to go that route then carrying becomes legal with a driver's license at 16. Do you really want to go that route?


> Show me one example, ONE EXAMPLE, of a legitimate
> citizen's militia keeping the land secure in the
> last hundred years of this country -- and I don't
> mean the bullshit Minutemen Border Patrol. I mean
> legitimately holding off an outside, foreign
> threat to our country's safety.

If our country is invaded, you can bet the militia will be needed because the US doesn't have enough military to defend every foot of our borders. And if you don't think that could ever happen, I defy YOU to show me an example of a power in the world's history that has never eventually been invaded.

Your request for an an example is invalid. You would first have to site an invasion and then argue that our country was kept safe without any use of private citizens. So of course without an invasion your argument falls flat. I am saying invasion isn't impossible and if/when it does happen you want citizens that own and have used firearms around. You'd have to go back further than 100 years to find a "real" invasion. Look up the Spanish American War, where militia museums are all over the place.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2010 01:04PM by pgens.

The funny thing about the above arguments is that the positions-against really have turned to dislike of the law rather than Second Amendment wording arguments. The Second Amendment rights are being confirmed more and more nationwide, they aren't shrinking. Some people don't like gay marriage, some people don't like gun rights. Both are growing, neither is going away whether you agree with them or not. Ignorance of history doesn't help your argument, it only makes you look like a dummy.

I don't give the slightest crap whether or not someone thinks self protection is a reason to carry a firearm. I do, others do, and for us under our rights that is all that matters. If you don't, practice your freedom not to carry and I'm perfectly happy with that. Too bad you can't reciprocate, but that's your problem and not mine.

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NovAnon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > People that moan and scream about their 2nd
> > Amendment rights very conveniently forget the
> > first half of the amendment, about the
> necessity
> > to keep and bear arms in the service of having
> a
> > well regulated militia to keep security. Guess
> > what, conservative assholes? That's why we have
> > the police. That's why we have the military.
>
> No, go read Heller (SCOTUS). You are simply wrong
> and that argument is tired and already decided by
> the courts. Even if we agreed that the "militia"
> are the only ones who should have access to
> firearms (even though the second amendment uses
> the phrase "The People" which in every other
> location of the Constitution means all citizens),
> Virginia defines its militia as all citizens
> capable of bearing arms from age 16 to 55. So if
> you want to go that route then carrying becomes
> legal with a driver's license at 16. Do you
> really want to go that route?
>
>
> > Show me one example, ONE EXAMPLE, of a
> legitimate
> > citizen's militia keeping the land secure in
> the
> > last hundred years of this country -- and I
> don't
> > mean the bullshit Minutemen Border Patrol. I
> mean
> > legitimately holding off an outside, foreign
> > threat to our country's safety.
>
> If our country is invaded, you can bet the militia
> will be needed because the US doesn't have enough
> military to defend every foot of our borders. And
> if you don't think that could ever happen, I defy
> YOU to show me an example of a power in the
> world's history that has never eventually been
> invaded.
>
> Your request for an an example is invalid. You
> would first have to site an invasion and then
> argue that our country was kept safe without any
> use of private citizens. So of course without an
> invasion your argument falls flat. I am saying
> invasion isn't impossible and if/when it does
> happen you want citizens that own and have used
> firearms around. You'd have to go back further
> than 100 years to find a "real" invasion. Look up
> the Spanish American War, where militia museums
> are all over the place.


Your points are well-taken. I know the SCOTUS decision on the 2nd Amendment in 2008. I also know it was hotly debated and was passed by a 5 to 4 vote, which doesn't exactly bode well for a unified decision on the matter. Heller was an important case, but it certainly isn't the end all, be all of gun control legislation. Indeed, this piece of legislation refers specifically to the DC handgun ban, although I grant that it's implications ripple outward.

However, the SCOTUS decision refers specifically to a "Well-trained" citizen militia, but sets out no definition for "Well-trained". This is problematic at best.

As for your second point, your statement answers it's own question. America has NEVER been invaded by a foreign enemy since the ratification of the Declaration and the subsequent formation of the United States.

I sure as fuck wouldn't want private citizens with guns teaming up in an effort to "protect" me. "Red Dawn" aside, vigilantism and militiaism are ridiculous concepts that are more likely to result in injury or death to innocent citizens than to enemy combatants -- this ties in with the concept of a "well-trained" citizen, and what, ultimately, that definition means, or comes to mean.

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The funny thing about the above arguments is that
> the positions-against really have turned to
> dislike of the law rather than Second Amendment
> wording arguments. The Second Amendment rights
> are being confirmed more and more nationwide, they
> aren't shrinking. Some people don't like gay
> marriage, some people don't like gun rights. Both
> are growing, neither is going away whether you
> agree with them or not. Ignorance of history
> doesn't help your argument, it only makes you look
> like a dummy.
>
> I don't give the slightest crap whether or not
> someone thinks self protection is a reason to
> carry a firearm. I do, others do, and for us
> under our rights that is all that matters. If you
> don't, practice your freedom not to carry and I'm
> perfectly happy with that. Too bad you can't
> reciprocate, but that's your problem and not mine.


Roundly, I agree with you. I'm certainly not interesting in restricting a citizen's right to carry arms; in truth, I have more consternation with what a citizen interprets a "right" to be. Rights have limits -- my limits may be stricter than yours, certainly (and I'm not implying you, or anyone on FXUG carries extremely liberal definitions of "rights"), but I do have a problem with people who believe these rights come with no responsibilities.

I think the gun laws in Virginia are archaic and outdated and need serious consideration in service of updating. I also accept that, while I may be in the majority of opinion here in Commie Country NoVA, having lived in other parts of the state, that this is not the case everywhere.

NovAnon wrote:
If our country is invaded, you can bet the militia
> will be needed because the US doesn't have enough
> military to defend every foot of our borders. And
> if you don't think that could ever happen, I defy
> YOU to show me an example of a power in the
> world's history that has never eventually been
> invaded.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the Country is invaded, I will be to busy at Starbucks or Costco flaunting my gun around. Will someone please send a horseman to relay the urgent message that we have been invaded so I can attend.

How in the HELL does that even apply to someone open carrying their gun into Costco in the year 2010?

I think I can speak safely here in saying that if the Country is invaded, you will have plenty of time to remove the t-shirt from over your gun and muster up a posse to respond, should your Government call you.

This has thread has gotten way off topic. If the OC was a troll like someone stated above, he sure picked a good subject to get the ball rollin with. Kudos

And thank you, XXX, for being the troll to get us back on track!

Your welcome, glad I could help. Now I am off to Chuckie Cheese scare some kids.

glockhead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you were a "responsible" gun owner you wouldn't
> carry your firearm while grocery shopping.
>
> Does it make you feel like a bad ass?
>
>
>
>
>
> How does wearing a gun make me irresponsible?

A "Responsible" gun owner who know about the laws and wouldn't have to go trolling on FX underground to ask if it was "legal" that he got kicked out of a buisness. To me sounds like another virginia defense league nut trying to stir up drama. Guess the big gun toting cookouts in the county parks just weren't getting enough attention for your morons

glockhead=dipshit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guess
> the big gun toting cookouts in the county parks
> just weren't getting enough attention for your
> morons

My morons get quite a bit of attention, actually. Sometimes I feel as though it is all too much, but I deal with it.

XXX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your welcome, glad I could help. Now I am off to
> Chuckie Cheese scare some kids.


Make sure your kids and the old people you are worried about don't go on American subways. There are scary guys there too legally carrying guns.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rail_cops_umdUeMj91LgYvYe2LV3zTN

That is New York City, not Costco in Fairfax County. Your pointing out an article about cops carrying guns. Big difference between Cops and Joe Smuckatly open carrying his gun in Costco. You point out cops carrying guns.. That goes with their job.. Weather or not it was an over show of force or not is a different debate,however, I would much rather see a group of cops standing around with guns than a bunch of people like you.

Good, stay inside and we'll both be happy.

No I would be much happier going outside and standing with you in line and telling you what an idiot you look like with your big bad gun hanging out. I find that to be very entertaining.

gunowner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tim45 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >People buy a semi auto because that is what cops
> carry.
>
> WTF is that supposed to mean?

What it means is people see what the police carry and figure it must be good since the departments wouldnt arm the cops with pieces of junk. That is why Glock is such a big seller.

Plus you have the added benefit of being able to find parts,holsters and ammo for a popular gun as opposed to the less popular types.

Not sure why the attitude but that is it plain and simple.

XXX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is New York City, not Costco in Fairfax
> County. Your pointing out an article about cops
> carrying guns. Big difference between Cops and Joe
> Smuckatly open carrying his gun in Costco. You
> point out cops carrying guns.. That goes with
> their job.. Weather or not it was an over show of
> force or not is a different debate,however, I
> would much rather see a group of cops standing
> around with guns than a bunch of people like you.

XXX...You're the kind of bleeding heart liberal who would be quivering in the corner hoping the cops would show up to save your ass if some nut case goes off in your Costco. I prefer to ensure my safety of my family without having to depend on the police when they can't be everywhere always.

While I prefer concealed carry, I am licensed, understand the serious implications of carrying a weapon and have been through numerous training classes and practice regularly. You'd also never have the faintest idea that I am carrying because I would never show my weapon and I never tell anyone either.

You'd be the one kissing my ass if I had to save your family from some nut job. Don't come off like everyone who carries a gun has some kind of problem. Your condescending, sarcastic posts are getting old fast.

I say why take a chance with some guy carrying a gun into Costco. Blast the gun toting fool before he gets to the front.

Well thanks for opinion there Mr. Law abiding citizen. Bleeding heart liberal? Not hardly. In case you missed it somewhere in my previous posts, I have never said that I am against people carrying a gun. I also have said that I also carry gun, and like you do so legally, have had training and practice on a regular basis. I am as I have stated opposed to people carrying their gun in the open. I think it's nothing more than someone saying look at me, I have a gun and I am immature because I want everyone to know I have it. That's it plain and simple.

All the bullshit answers about well I want to be ready when a random shoot out occurs, I am gonna be the one to save your family, I will be the one saving the world when the country is invaded.. BLAHHH BALHHH BLAHHHH, is nothing more than laziness and a bullshit coming from people that have ego problems. You can do all these things just as easy if your gun is covered up with a t-shirt as to not instill fear in the average citizen.

This thread started out about someone OPEN CARRYING a handgun, other people have turned this into a debate over the 2nd Amendment and weather people should be carrying a handgun at all.


As for my condescending, sarcastic posts as you put it, well sir I guess you will just have to get the fuck over that. It's me expressing my 1st Amendment rights.

XXX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well thanks for opinion there Mr. Law abiding
> citizen. Bleeding heart liberal? Not hardly. In
> case you missed it somewhere in my previous posts,
> I have never said that I am against people
> carrying a gun. I also have said that I also carry
> gun, and like you do so legally, have had training
> and practice on a regular basis. I am as I have
> stated opposed to people carrying their gun in the
> open. I think it's nothing more than someone
> saying look at me, I have a gun and I am immature
> because I want everyone to know I have it. That's
> it plain and simple.
>
> All the bullshit answers about well I want to be
> ready when a random shoot out occurs, I am gonna
> be the one to save your family, I will be the one
> saving the world when the country is invaded..
> BLAHHH BALHHH BLAHHHH, is nothing more than
> laziness and a bullshit coming from people that
> have ego problems. You can do all these things
> just as easy if your gun is covered up with a
> t-shirt as to not instill fear in the average
> citizen.
>
> This thread started out about someone OPEN
> CARRYING a handgun, other people have turned this
> into a debate over the 2nd Amendment and weather
> people should be carrying a handgun at all.
>
>
> As for my condescending, sarcastic posts as you
> put it, well sir I guess you will just have to get
> the fuck over that. It's me expressing my 1st
> Amendment rights.

Just because you don't like open carry doesn't mean it's wrong. It's legal so get over it. If someone asks is asked to leave an establishment do so and never come back. As for your generalizations about ego problems just shows your full of shit. You have no idea who you're talking about so how do you know?

Bottom line...you respect 1st and 2nd amendment rights when they fit your circumstances but not others. It shows what kind of tool you are

NovAnon Wrote:
> Virginia Tech has operated, in total, for a little
> over fifty thousand days, which means that one bad
> day on campus -- and not even really a day, but a
> couple of hours -- amounts to .00002% of its total
> operating time.
>
> Westroads Mall has operated for a little over
> fifteen thousand days, meaning one bad day in its
> history amounts to .000067% of its total operating
> time.

Like Westroads Mall, I have also been "operating" for a little over fifteen thousand days. In that time, I have had to unholster my weapon one time in defense of someone. But on that "one bad day", my neighbor was very grateful that I happened to be there.

That's the point. You never know when that "one bad day" is going to happen.

---------------------------------
Who knows from whence he came, and who knows where he goes, dot dot dot.

Bottom line...you respect 1st and 2nd amendment rights when they fit your circumstances but not others. It shows what kind of tool you are



Where does it say in the 2nd that thou shall carry your gun in the open for all to see. Just gives you the right to have gun. Does not say anything about carrying it around at Costco like it's the wild west.


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS HOW YOU SHALL BEAR THOSE ARMS. CONCEALED OR NOT.

So to clear that up, respect for either 1st or 2nd has nothing to do with. I guess you could say that it's the law in this case I have no respect for.


And yes just cause I don't like, does mean it wrongs. Just cause you support it, don't mean it's right.

XXX...you're really showing both your arrogance and ignorance at the same time. Understand that Virginia law allows open carry so get over yourself. If you insist on forcing your half witted opinions on us all work with your representative in Richmond to get the law changed.

Your I'm right, you're wrong attitude reinforces the fact that you're a douche bag who couldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag. Do us all a favor and turn your gun on yourself before you happen to procreate and pass your stupid genes down for another generation.

Thanks for hiding behind the constitution you immature coward.

Your first amendment and second amendment rights don't mean shit on private property. Pull that shit in my house and I'll kick your ass out the door so quick your head will be spinning.

I'm so sick of annoying immature "conservative" people pissing the fuck off out of others and then when you ask them for an explanation they are dumb founded and just say "It's my constitution right." Instead they should just say "It's because I'm a certified attention needy asshole who likes pissing people off."

Tim45 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gunowner Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tim45 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >People buy a semi auto because that is what
> cops
> > carry.
> >
> > WTF is that supposed to mean?
>
> What it means is people see what the police carry
> and figure it must be good since the departments
> wouldnt arm the cops with pieces of junk. That is
> why Glock is such a big seller.
>
> Plus you have the added benefit of being able to
> find parts,holsters and ammo for a popular gun as
> opposed to the less popular types.
>
> Not sure why the attitude but that is it plain and
> simple.



That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. People don't buy semi-auto because policy carry semi-auto. People buy it because it's fucking semi-auto. You think people are going to buy bolt action rifles for home defense?

Law abiding citzen. Thats it, now you have hurt my feelings. I am not playing with you anymore.

fresh out of bears Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well actually...
>
> The 1st A made sense in the 18th C and now
> The 2nd A made sense in the 18th C but not now
>
> We seem to be fresh out of wolves, bears and
> invading armies in places like FFX these days. Its
> extremely hard to argue that a right to bear arms
> - especially open carry - is in the slightest
> relevant to urban and suburban America.
>
> If the 2nd A didn't exist, there's no way any
> elected government anywhere would put it on the
> books.
>
> If your neighborhood is so dangerous that you
> think you need a gun - switch neighborhoods - or
> call the police.
>
> I'd support a minimalist version of the 2A not a
> maximalist version which has immature 19 year olds
> trying to OC in costco where my kids each lunch.
>
> If you want to hunt, fine, I can see no harm in
> getting a licensed rifle or shotgun and training.
> I see no reason for carrying a pistol into a
> store, bar or bus - this is not Somalia
>
> Maybe if you want to OC, you should have to do it
> as the founding fathers intended - wearing a
> perfumed wig and frock-coat

You have your fucking head in the sand.

Teh King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh out of bears Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well actually...
> >
> > The 1st A made sense in the 18th C and now
> > The 2nd A made sense in the 18th C but not now
> >
> > We seem to be fresh out of wolves, bears and
> > invading armies in places like FFX these days.
> Its
> > extremely hard to argue that a right to bear
> arms
> > - especially open carry - is in the slightest
> > relevant to urban and suburban America.
> >
> > If the 2nd A didn't exist, there's no way any
> > elected government anywhere would put it on the
> > books.
> >
> > If your neighborhood is so dangerous that you
> > think you need a gun - switch neighborhoods -
> or
> > call the police.
> >
> > I'd support a minimalist version of the 2A not
> a
> > maximalist version which has immature 19 year
> olds
> > trying to OC in costco where my kids each
> lunch.
> >
> > If you want to hunt, fine, I can see no harm in
> > getting a licensed rifle or shotgun and
> training.
> > I see no reason for carrying a pistol into a
> > store, bar or bus - this is not Somalia
> >
> > Maybe if you want to OC, you should have to do
> it
> > as the founding fathers intended - wearing a
> > perfumed wig and frock-coat
>
> You have your fucking head in the sand.


ahhhh! 2A logic at its finest

fresh out of bears Wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
> If the 2nd A didn't exist, there's no way any
> elected government anywhere would put it on the
> books.

If the 2nd never existed in the US, it is quite possible that the 1st wouldn't either. And then you will have a different kind of "elected" government and of course they'd never pass the 2nd. They wouldn't pass the 1st either. Maybe you'd prefer Iranian or Chinese-style "elections," no thanks here.


> switch neighborhoods - or call the police.

As they say... "Police... only minutes away when seconds count."


> I'd support a minimalist version of the 2A not
> a maximalist version which has immature 19 year
> olds trying to OC in costco where my kids each
> lunch.

You have to be 21 to buy a handgun in Virginia, not 19. There, your concerns are now satisfied.



> If you want to hunt, fine, I can see no harm in
> getting a licensed rifle or shotgun and
> training.

Sorry, you have to live with the country's laws you live in. I did a word search on the second amendment and neither the words "sport" or "hunt" are in there.


And I don't think it is wrong for someone to state they have a right to do something when questioned... it is the first thing protesters do when the police start rounding them up and moving them. Why is stating you have a right to do something not a good enough reason? If I have a right to do something and you don't like it, I can still do it and it is your problem, not mine.

I don't have a CCP nor do I open carry (my cock is large enough and I keep that holstered in public). However, I own firearms and I'm glad the 2nd Amendment exists.

Define a minimalist versus "maximalist" version of the 2nd A. If you don't care for people carrying weapons then perhaps you should work at the grassroots local level to enact restrictive laws.

The Bill of Rights was written to guarantee freedoms that were not provided by the previous government under British rule. The second amendment has nothing to do with invading armies or hunting predatory animals.

Let the fools have guns. Most end up shooting themselves in the head anyways.

Teh King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't have a CCP...


Neither does anyone else in Virginia. They do have CHPs, however.

General Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teh King Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't have a CCP...
>
>
> Neither does anyone else in Virginia. They do
> have CHPs, however.

Give me a fucking break on the technical terms. Jesus. Is there an effective difference? Educate me if so otherwise you're arguing with the choir.

Teh King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't have a CCP nor do I open carry (my cock is
> large enough and I keep that holstered in public).
> However, I own firearms and I'm glad the 2nd
> Amendment exists.
>
> Define a minimalist versus "maximalist" version of
> the 2nd A. If you don't care for people carrying
> weapons then perhaps you should work at the
> grassroots local level to enact restrictive laws.
>
> The Bill of Rights was written to guarantee
> freedoms that were not provided by the previous
> government under British rule. The second
> amendment has nothing to do with invading armies
> or hunting predatory animals.

There are few similarities between the situation in the US in the 1780's and now

When the Bill of Rights was written:
*The population of the colonies was <1% of current levels
*The population of NYC was about 5,000
*Invasion and the potential need for resistance was definitely possible
*Armed insurrection was an widespread approach to politics

I find it hard to believe that anyone, outside of the extreme fringe, seriously believes that after >200 years of robust democracy in the US

*Armed insurrection is an acceptable approach to politics
*Handgun ownership by citizens is any kind of check on real or perceived oppression by (your elected) government

My reading of 2A is that the implied role of the Militia is not to enable the overthrow of governments but to act as a method of mass mobilization of the populace against invasion. Its clear that the founders were putting in place a set of balanced democratic institutions - not an anarchist nation in which any group of yahoos could decide on armed opposition to any given policy.

Things have moved on - gun ownership
*does not increase the nations security against external invasion
*does not act as a mode for personal opposition to the actions of a democratically elected state or federal government
*does not increase the safety of communities in the face of crime

Does that suggest that gun ownership should be banned. Not necessarily, because there are valid uses for firearms in civil society - for example, hunting and sport.

However, it does suggest that the regulation of gun ownership is a reasonable approach. For example, I still fail to see the rational for allowing unregulated ownership of handguns in a civil society.

As I said, if you want regulation, do so at the local level. If you can garner enough support at the grassroots level then more power to you. Go for an amendment if you think the movement has enough support and momentum.

Let's focus on real world issues. In terms of real-world change, handgun control or gun control in general is not low-hanging fruit. Prohibition of any sort has proven to be an abject failure. Drugs, alcohol, illegal immigration guns... all things that have been or are currently prohibited and will never be controlled.

If we shoot all the gun owners we wouldn't have these problems.

fresh out of bears Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teh King Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> *does not increase the safety of communities in
> the face of crime
>
> Does that suggest that gun ownership should be
> banned. Not necessarily, because there are valid
> uses for firearms in civil society - for example,
> hunting and sport.
>
> However, it does suggest that the regulation of
> gun ownership is a reasonable approach. For
> example, I still fail to see the rational for
> allowing unregulated ownership of handguns in a
> civil society.

Your first point has been disproven. There are many instances where crimes have been prevented or controlled by regular citizens who had guns before the police arrived. THere are lots of home break-ins which are stopped by the sound of the homeowner operating a pump action shotgun- not firing it.

Your second point fails to mention home defense. This is certainly a valid use of a firearm. If your home has never been broken into, you may disagree, but as stated above, you still wear your seatbelt even though you haven't crashed a car in 20 years of driving.

The third point is true. There ought to be some regulation of gun ownership- we don't need violent felons or mentally disturbed people owning any guns. I thought the 30 day waiting period between handgun purchases was fine.

Teh King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> General Lee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Teh King Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I don't have a CCP...
> >
> >
> > Neither does anyone else in Virginia. They do
> > have CHPs, however.
>
> Give me a fucking break on the technical terms.
> Jesus. Is there an effective difference? Educate
> me if so otherwise you're arguing with the choir.


Yeah, a CHP is only good for a concealed HANDGUN. Others, like a CWP, are good for concealed WEAPONS, so you can have a concealed knife.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh out of bears Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Teh King Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------

>
> Your first point has been disproven. There are
> many instances where crimes have been prevented or
> controlled by regular citizens who had guns before
> the police arrived. THere are lots of home
> break-ins which are stopped by the sound of the
> homeowner operating a pump action shotgun- not
> firing it.
>
> Your second point fails to mention home defense.
> This is certainly a valid use of a firearm. If
> your home has never been broken into, you may
> disagree, but as stated above, you still wear your
> seatbelt even though you haven't crashed a car in
> 20 years of driving.
>

okay - indulge me

FFX - population about a million

How many documented cases of either can you point to? I'm sure at least some of them would have been in washpo weekly police round-up...

1911 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tim45 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > gunowner Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Tim45 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > >People buy a semi auto because that is what
> > cops
> > > carry.
> > >
> > > WTF is that supposed to mean?
> >
> > What it means is people see what the police
> carry
> > and figure it must be good since the
> departments
> > wouldnt arm the cops with pieces of junk. That
> is
> > why Glock is such a big seller.
> >
> > Plus you have the added benefit of being able
> to
> > find parts,holsters and ammo for a popular gun
> as
> > opposed to the less popular types.
> >
> > Not sure why the attitude but that is it plain
> and
> > simple.
>
>
>
> That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
> People don't buy semi-auto because policy carry
> semi-auto. People buy it because it's fucking
> semi-auto. You think people are going to buy bolt
> action rifles for home defense?

So why not a revolver? Semis have been around for years yet the big sales didnt start until the police switched to semis from revolvers.

Its well documented that the gun buying public rely on what the police carry. They put trust in the police buying what works and has been throughly tested.

If you dont know this then you have a limited knowledge of firearms and probably shouldnt be posting anyway.

NovAnon Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> People that moan and scream about their 2nd
> Amendment rights very conveniently forget the
> first half of the amendment, about the necessity
> to keep and bear arms in the service of having a
> well regulated militia to keep security. Guess
> what, conservative assholes? That's why we have
> the police. That's why we have the military.

Michael Moore is an asswipe, but he did interview someone in one of his movies that made a damn good point.

When you're in an emergency situation, why do you call the cops? Because they have the tools (read: firepower) to stop the bad guy from doing more harm. Cut the middle man out. In an emergency situation, seconds really do matter.

Michael Moore is a lifetime NRA member.

General Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Moore is a lifetime NRA member.

Well, ummm, anyone can be - you just send them a check, like any other organization open to the public. I guess this was part of his ruse to gain access to the Charlton Heston "interview". (You know, the one where Michael Moore went to harangue the old man who had bad Alzheimer's disease, and then cut-and-pasted the results out of context and out or order, to make it appear very different than what actually happened? And then presented that as a "documentary" movie?)

Michael Moore is one of the lowest scum on the earth.
(Well, that's kind of insulting to scum...sorry, scums.)

Spacy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> General Lee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Michael Moore is a lifetime NRA member.
>
> Well, ummm, anyone can be - you just send them a
> check, like any other organization open to the
> public. I guess this was part of his ruse to
> gain access to the Charlton Heston "interview".
> (You know, the one where Michael Moore went to
> harangue the old man who had bad Alzheimer's
> disease, and then cut-and-pasted the results out
> of context and out or order, to make it appear
> very different than what actually happened? And
> then presented that as a "documentary" movie?)
>
> Michael Moore is one of the lowest scum on the
> earth.
> (Well, that's kind of insulting to scum...sorry,
> scums.)


Actually, I think the reason why he became a lifetime member was because he hoped to become the President of the NRA someday and advocate for gun control.

Should of shoot him. Everybody knows in a gunfight the person who fires first wins! How do the Costco guards know this guy wasn't some whacko shooter!

Maybe the OP looked like a 19 year old scrub with a gun and that was the problem.. I haven't open carried in Costco specifically but I have open carried in a ton of other stores like Walmart who also sometimes has a problem with people carrying guns and guess what I have never had a problem. Maybe you should get a hair cut and shave and stop wearing baggy hoodies that make you look like a hoodlum if you want to carry a gun and not cause a scene.

Man this thread makes my head hurt.

To all of you that OC, well done. Thank you for taking the RESPONSIBILITY of defending yourself and your family. I too feel like this responsibility is important in my way of life.

Always remember that in those critical 10 seconds, we do what we train. I train myself to use the 'non-gun' people as a diversion and as chaos that can ultilmatly give you enough time to draw and end the situation.

For those of you that freak out about guns, you may want to think about this. When your GF (would say wife but most people here are pre-pubescent by the type of posts) is getting raped with a gun to her head and that big mean guy is choking your ass against the wall making you watch, I will be sure not to draw my weapon and 'help' you because my gun is 'icky' to you.

People can kill a liberal just as easy as they can kill a conservative. What are YOU going to do about it?

As an FYI, Costco did everything legally as it happened. Next time, I suggest CCing into that particular store. I always cover up going in there because I know that this has happened before.