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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Parental Opinion ()
Date: April 03, 2011 12:54PM

I assume the latter posters have figured out that "dropout" and "nongraduation" are different things by now.

Otherwise I'll leave it as an exercise for ...wall...the reader.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: bigdog ()
Date: April 03, 2011 01:14PM

blame the parents not the system

2 arrests in beating of 73-year-old crossing guard

Published April 02, 2011
| Associated Press
Print Email Share Comments (475) Text Size LANSING, Mich. – Police have arrested two Michigan parents they say beat a 73-year-old school crossing guard after he tried to break up a fight between their son and another 7-year-old boy.

Lt. Noel Garcia tells the Lansing State Journal the boys were involved in an altercation at Lyons Elementary School on Wednesday. Garcia says the next morning the parents drove to the area, let out their son and told him to beat the other boy.

Garcia says the couple's 7-year-old punched the other child, knocking him to the ground. When the crossing guard intervened, Garcia says the couple attacked him.

The State Journal says the parents were arrested Friday and are expected to be arraigned Monday on charges of assault or assault and battery and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: way off track ()
Date: April 03, 2011 01:43PM

Please explain the relevance of the above post to this thread. What does that incident have to do with "zero tolerance in Fairfax County schools"?

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Dell ()
Date: April 03, 2011 03:08PM

i was kicked out of school for insubordination my first time ever getting in trouble all i did was walk out on the assistant principal because he told me the class education for employment is an easy A and i don't think you need that class

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Dell ()
Date: April 03, 2011 03:10PM

oh yea an im black and we all know virginia is one of the most racist states in america

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: logicaldog ()
Date: April 03, 2011 03:57PM

You are an idiot if you think the "good kids" are busy being good kids. I see them in therapy wringing their hands at the unrealistic expectations of parents, teachers and this dumb-ass community that spews out what is perceived as "over-achievers" when in reality they are drugged( "prescription meds"-probably 50% think they have ADD because they have any kind of emotion and affect left), depressed and have completely empty lives. Stop fooling yourselves.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: different idea ()
Date: April 03, 2011 04:14PM

Parenting should include Reagan's philosophy:

"Trust but verify."

Peer pressure is a very strong force. Sometimes "good kids" become friends with other "good kids" that have gone astray. I've known parents who were so thrilled that their kids were "popular" or were included with some other groups that they did not pay attention.

I've known parents that I thought were responsible--people that I liked and thought knew better--that had Kegs in the basement for their freshmen. Kids are going to find their own trouble without help from parents. Just because you take the car keys does not make it right.

And, people, marijuana today is not the same as in the 70's. Nevertheless, It is illegal and you must teach the kids that.

That does not mean that I support FCPS policy. But, don't fool yourselves into thinking that some of the activities of these kids are not dangerous.

Some of the FCPS judges require that parents go through driver training with their kids when they get a ticket. Perhaps, FCPS should require 20 hours of anti-drug training for parents and kids together when the kids get in trouble. That would be real punishment. I bet some of the parents would say to just expel them!

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Parental Opinion ()
Date: April 03, 2011 04:29PM

logicaldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [junk]

You have misunderstood what this (and the myriad others!) thread is about.

It isn't (or...er...wasn't) about whether or not kids do drugs or alcohol or fight or swear or whatever.

It is about if they do that in school what should happen to isolate them from the ones who do not. Or not.

I personally am for the total legalization of ALL drugs and the making of The Problem into a social one, not a criminal one.

But that doesn't have anything to do with how one protects the vast majority of the kids IN SCHOOL from the jerks who think (1) they can violate the rules and (2) should get away with it. I want my so-far-so-good kid protected from the jerks she doesn't (currently) socialize with whose behavior IS detrimental to scholastic work.

The SR&R gives most such losers at least one second chance. Often more.

Then kicks there asses out of the system so the GOOD kids don't suffer.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: April 03, 2011 05:16PM

Parental Opinion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This unsupported crap keeps on getting spewed by your ilk yet the VAST majority of students end up being consistent full-academic-lifetime non-bad kids.
>
> How strange!<

69,000 FCPS kids got into disciplinary trouble last year out of 175,000 students according to FCPS's own numbers. Since most of those 69,000 involved kids in junior high and high school which account for 81,000 kids, good kids are getting into trouble. 70% of secondary kids are getting into trouble.

It's endemic to being a teenager.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Parental Opinion ()
Date: April 03, 2011 05:24PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [example from the book "How to Lie With Statistics]

I think you need to re-examine your numbers.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 04, 2011 12:29PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Parental Opinion Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This unsupported crap keeps on getting spewed by
> your ilk yet the VAST majority of students end up
> being consistent full-academic-lifetime non-bad
> kids.
> >
> > How strange!<
>
> 69,000 FCPS kids got into disciplinary trouble
> last year out of 175,000 students according to
> FCPS's own numbers. Since most of those 69,000
> involved kids in junior high and high school which
> account for 81,000 kids, good kids are getting
> into trouble. 70% of secondary kids are getting
> into trouble.
>
> It's endemic to being a teenager.
------------------------------------------------------------

oh noes.......the TROUBLES!!!!

meanwhile, most of those kids STILL GRADUATED!

-------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by: Dell ()
Date: April 03, 2011 03:10PM

oh yea an im black and we all know virginia is one of the most racist states in america
-------------------------------------------------------------

wah wah wah -- well, if you feel that way, MOVE!
or how about this? MAN UP, get yrself STRAIGHT, and dont fuck around with authority (I mean, since you "know" they are out to "get you cause you are black", then that makes you kinda stupid to fuck with them and give them the excuse to mess up yr future) - get a degree and change the system instead of just crying about it all day long.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by: logicaldog ()
Date: April 03, 2011 03:57PM

You are an idiot if you think the "good kids" are busy being good kids. I see them in therapy wringing their hands at the unrealistic expectations of parents, teachers and this dumb-ass community that spews out what is perceived as "over-achievers" when in reality they are drugged( "prescription meds"-probably 50% think they have ADD because they have any kind of emotion and affect left), depressed and have completely empty lives. Stop fooling yourselves.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you are right about the over-drugging of our children. You are DEAD WRONG to think it's only epidimic to this region, however. Either way, that doesnt make them not "good kids" as you infer

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: standard bearer ()
Date: April 04, 2011 12:45PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> good kids are getting into trouble.

Either the parent of an incorrigible miscreant or someone mired in and complacent with mediocrity.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 04, 2011 12:47PM

If the good kids are getting into trouble, they must not be good kids then.

I never got suspended or so much as detention in high school. I don't see what's so hard about following a few simple rules.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: did you miss it? ()
Date: April 04, 2011 12:50PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the good kids are getting into trouble, they
> must not be good kids then.
>
> I never got suspended or so much as detention in
> high school. I don't see what's so hard about
> following a few simple rules.

Because parents refuse to accept they raised a little shithead. There is no way the little shithead would cause trouble, so it must be a problem with the system or the teacher. Little shithead is NEVER to blame.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 04, 2011 12:54PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the good kids are getting into trouble, they
> must not be good kids then.
>
> I never got suspended or so much as detention in
> high school. I don't see what's so hard about
> following a few simple rules.
-------------------------------------------------------------

well, apparently there are more rules now. I mean, back then, they didnt even have electricity so it was more easy for you :)


I keed - I KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 04, 2011 01:38PM

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well, apparently there are more rules now.

Actually, I think it was harder in the past than it is today.

Wear a piercing to school? Take it out or go home.

Wear a skirt or shorts that's too short? Cover up or go home.

Caught using tobacco? Suspension.

Caught with any drugs of any amount? Expulsion.

Say anything disrespectful to a teacher? Detention, at least.

The difference between then and now is back then, the parents wouldn't argue with the school that it was only "a little bit of drugs" or "the first time Junior was caught smoking" or "Little Suzie should be allowed to leave school grounds during lunch if she wants." The school would punish you, and the parents would hold you responsible for your own fuck-up. The student handbook was about 10 pages long; it didn't need to spell everything out in 60 pages like you're some sort of simpleton.

"Don't bring drugs or weapons to school, don't get into fights, and don't dress like a whore." It wasn't really that complicated.

Now, though, they have to write everything at the 4th grade level to make sure that simpleton parents can relay these incredibly complex policies to their simpleton children.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: not sure when ()
Date: April 04, 2011 01:57PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gordon Blvd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > well, apparently there are more rules now.
>
> Actually, I think it was harder in the past than
> it is today.
>
> Wear a piercing to school? Take it out or go
> home.
>
> Wear a skirt or shorts that's too short? Cover up
> or go home.
>
> Caught using tobacco? Suspension.
>
> Caught with any drugs of any amount? Expulsion.
>
> Say anything disrespectful to a teacher?
> Detention, at least.
>
> The difference between then and now is back then,
> the parents wouldn't argue with the school that it
> was only "a little bit of drugs" or "the first
> time Junior was caught smoking" or "Little Suzie
> should be allowed to leave school grounds during
> lunch if she wants." The school would punish you,
> and the parents would hold you responsible for
> your own fuck-up. The student handbook was about
> 10 pages long; it didn't need to spell everything
> out in 60 pages like you're some sort of
> simpleton.
>
> "Don't bring drugs or weapons to school, don't get
> into fights, and don't dress like a whore." It
> wasn't really that complicated.
>
> Now, though, they have to write everything at the
> 4th grade level to make sure that simpleton
> parents can relay these incredibly complex
> policies to their simpleton children.


I disagree that is was harder to obey the rules way back when. I graduated from HS in the mid-80's in NY, and we had a designated 'student smoking area'. You could get in trouble for smoking in the bathrooms, but why bother when you could step outside and smoke? Girls could wear halter tops, lots of piercings even then, and pretty much any display of affection short of intercourse was tolerated in the hallways. Fights were dealt with by the principal, and there were not cops stationed at the hallway. Kids got arrested for doing things outside of school, and the school did not get involved AT ALL. I graduated with someone who was charged with manslaughter, and he kept showing up to class.

So it wasn't always 'this way'.

The schools need discipline and rules, but what FCPS has now is a perversion of that concept. Throwing someone out for 1 acne pill is absurd. They have lost all perspective on their educational mission. It's rules for rules sake. FCPS makes things forbidden that are allowed every other place than child goes, and when they trip the kids up, it's mandatory expulsion.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 04, 2011 02:07PM

I was in high school in the 90s. School in the 80s sounded awesome.

But, they didn't throw that girl out for 1 acne pill. They threw her out for having a bottle of unregistered prescription medication.

The school is not entirely to blame for the current state of affairs, and I really don't envy their position. Imagine if Acne Girl gave one of those pills to another girl, and Girl 2 had a bad reaction, forcing her to go to the hospital. Girl 2's parents would be calling for Acne Girl's head, and if the school didn't punish her, Girl 2's parents would try to sue.

It's less about "rules for rules' sake" and more about "protecting ourselves when one of these nutjob parents tries to sue us."

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 04, 2011 02:20PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was in high school in the 90s. School in the
> 80s sounded awesome.
>
> But, they didn't throw that girl out for 1 acne
> pill. They threw her out for having a bottle of
> unregistered prescription medication.
>
> The school is not entirely to blame for the
> current state of affairs, and I really don't envy
> their position. Imagine if Acne Girl gave one of
> those pills to another girl, and Girl 2 had a bad
> reaction, forcing her to go to the hospital. Girl
> 2's parents would be calling for Acne Girl's head,
> and if the school didn't punish her, Girl 2's
> parents would try to sue.
>
> It's less about "rules for rules' sake" and more
> about "protecting ourselves when one of these
> nutjob parents tries to sue us."


your are TOTALLY right, bro

back in our day, our parents listened to when the office called them, saying we were fucking up in school.

Nowadays, we have stuck up parents who will file multi-million dollar lawsuits on the school system instead of parent their stupid kids

http://www.komonews.com/news/35111064.html

http://theinsanityreport.com/home/index.php/2010/02/24/news/parents-need-to-get-a-handle-on-their-kids/

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: logicaldog ()
Date: April 05, 2011 04:30AM

Reagan wasn't much of a role model and didn't have a very good track record on parenting.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: logicaldog ()
Date: April 05, 2011 04:36AM

I am not related to "big dog" who is really a big moron and probably a product of FCPS. Sad for you, you sound like a kid or something.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: April 05, 2011 08:23AM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Girl 2's parents would try to sue.

First, Girls 2's parents suit would be thrown out at the first hearing.

Second, the number of suits have gone up in reaction to the "hang'em high" policies. So the policy has been counterproductive, if that's the motivation.

But that's not the motivation.

These policies come from a mistaken belief that there are hundreds of "bad kids" who must be destroyed so that the rest are safe.

It's not based on research but mythology.

The research shows that zero tolerance is counterproductive.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 05, 2011 09:09AM

Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools new
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: April 05, 2011 08:23AM

The research shows that zero tolerance is counterproductive

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ok, show us the research.

I say blaming the schools for kids breaking the rules is the REAL counter-productiveness here.

It's not like they are "stealth" rules or anything.

here's a British article that says what you are saying - you have GOT to love the first line in it!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-158251/School-drug-policy-counter-productive.html

first line: Schools' zero tolerance policies on drugs may be counter-productive because they simply lead children to conceal their drug problems, Home Office research says.

ROFLMAO!!!

cause, as we all know, it was much better before zero-tolerance, when you could just openly use drugs during class, right? o_0

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Parental Opinion ()
Date: April 05, 2011 09:11AM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The research shows that zero tolerance is
> counterproductive.

Nonsense.

You are using a POV of the "bad" kids - of COURSE quarantine is not good for the bad kids; it hurts, it's a big bother, it impacts them for sure.

But quarantine (we're talking worst-case actions here, not just a piddling suspension) work dramatically well for the vast majority of the student body.

Cut out the cancer, isolate the disease, the "good" kids ARE protected.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: thoughts ()
Date: April 05, 2011 10:51AM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was in high school in the 90s. School in the
> 80s sounded awesome.
>
> But, they didn't throw that girl out for 1 acne
> pill. They threw her out for having a bottle of
> unregistered prescription medication.
>
> The school is not entirely to blame for the
> current state of affairs, and I really don't envy
> their position. Imagine if Acne Girl gave one of
> those pills to another girl, and Girl 2 had a bad
> reaction, forcing her to go to the hospital. Girl
> 2's parents would be calling for Acne Girl's head,
> and if the school didn't punish her, Girl 2's
> parents would try to sue.
>
> It's less about "rules for rules' sake" and more
> about "protecting ourselves when one of these
> nutjob parents tries to sue us."

If you want to see the difference in the times, go back and watch a '80's PG movie. What was PG then will get you an 'R' now.

On topic....

I agree that litigious parents makes it very much harder on the administrators to make sound judgements and not be dragged into court. But who are you going to let call the tune on this - the 5 or 10% of the parents that will sue no matter what you do, or the 90% who can deal with reasonable judgements and attempt to properly parent thier children.

If you look at the stats, I think it was over 5000 expulsions that went through the Hearing Office and not a single child exonerated. The whole process feels so un-American. No one ever cleared of an infraction, interrogations without parents present, coerced confessions...it just feels wrong. Expelling kids for violence or drugs is fine by me, but to do it based on a mere accusation from another student or a coerced confession, when the consequences are so high? No adult would ever stand for such treatment at the hands of the authorities.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:48AM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, Girls 2's parents suit would be thrown out
> at the first hearing.

Maybe in this particular case. But, if the school just let Acne girl off the hook, then other parents would scream "discrimination" or "bias" when their precious snowflake is found with an unregistered bottle of percoset.

> Second, the number of suits have gone up in
> reaction to the "hang'em high" policies. So the
> policy has been counterproductive, if that's the
> motivation.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. Parents won't let them do their jobs and stay out of their way, so this is the result.

> But that's not the motivation.
>
> These policies come from a mistaken belief that
> there are hundreds of "bad kids" who must be
> destroyed so that the rest are safe.
>
> It's not based on research but mythology.
>
> The research shows that zero tolerance is
> counterproductive.

What research?

And I'd love to see some numbers on how many kids are actually suspended/expelled vs. the ones that aren't. Chances are, it's only a very small percent of kids that are crying abou this policy being too harsh.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: TDot ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:52AM

I have rad a lot of the comments on on here, some are very intelligent and well thought out and a lot are just people spouting off without knowing how the system works and how our tax dollars are being used.

My son was targeted by the school system when he was involved in a prank that happened over the summer and not involving the Fairfax County School system in any way. The school, tipped of by the county police, decided that they would move my son into an alternative program...basically, they put him into a quasi-school where he was surrounded by some other students that had some minor indiscretions but more importantly, he was introduced to students that suffer from a whole new level of mischief, drugs and mental illness. This Zero Tolerance policy works to put children in a contained area, much like a jail, without the help and resources they need to get past their underlying issues and then others like my son are then labeled and brought down by the system and helped in no way whatsoever.

The problem with the school system, is that there is no due process. Our children do make poor decisions at times, and yes it does ruin their lives. There is a cost of all of this too...The private tutors, the running of these alternative programs and creating a burden on society because the school system is only intent on hiding problems and moving any "perceived" problem child out of a school setting an into a special program and not actually dealing with the root causes of drugs, mental illness, ADHD and even misbehavior that is often a cry for help.

Another issue I have with the Fairfax School system is that they have integrated school resource officers into the school system to truly create a police state within the schools. Police officers should NOT be the norm in a school setting. Yes, there will be time when students may cross the line into serious criminal behavior( harming others, robbery or other felonies) where police do need to take the front seat. But in general, Schools need to more of an advocate for helping kids learn and grow. Last time I heard, we all learn from mistakes and grow from experience.

Principal's and school board members are for the Zero tolerance enforcement because it allows them to get more federal funding by giving the appearance of higher grades and graduation rates. instead of having these "Problem" children possibly effecting their numbers they simply move them to alternative programs that are used to push kids through the system and give them a diploma, notice I said GIVE and not EARN. Thanks to the No Child Left Behind rules.

The sum of all this is, let's stop this Police state and help kids whenever we can, jumping to conclusions and putting kids in programs pre-maturely serves only one purpose - to make the school system appear to be responsive and to remove any perceived problem child out of the mainstream...Neither solves any of the underlying problems.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: parent*2 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 12:21PM

I notice much of the posting of parents with kids in the discipline process does not include just opting out into private school. I know it's lots of $, but if it's a choice between sending my somewhat deliquent child off to be truly educated by the highly deliquent, or paying up for a private school - well, that's an easy choice.

I wonder if some of the other choices in people's lives (houses, cars, vacations, etc) don't put them in a position where they are totally dependent upon FCPS for education. Perhaps if you as parents were a little more focused on your kids potential needs (Little Johnny might have a learning/discipline/other issue someday, and we may need to be able to pay for private school, so let's pass on the 60" flat screen), you would not find yourself at the mercy of the FCPS bureaucracy.

Not a sermon, just a thought......

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: alternative schools suck ()
Date: April 05, 2011 12:32PM

The numbers are: 2008-09 school year

7-12th grades and the last # is total


Annandale High School 0 0 10 8 22 18 58


Bryant Alternative High School 0 1 7 22 43 42 115

Carl Sandburg Middle School 1 1 0 0 0 0 2
Centreville High School 0 0 2 2 6 9 19
Chantilly High School 0 0 2 2 12 13 29
Fairfax/Falls Church Community SVCS BD Schools 1 1 7 0 3 0 12
Edgar Allen Poe Middle School 1 1 0 0 0 0 2
Fairfax High School 0 0 3 4 11 9 27
Falls Church High School 0 0 5 6 14 9 34
Francis Scott Key Middle School 2 0 0 0 0 0 2
George C. Marshall High School 0 0 3 2 4 5 14
Hayfield Secondary School 1 0 5 6 10 6 28
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Middle School 5 0 0 0 0 0 5
Herndon High School 0 0 11 10 15 12 48
Herndon Middle School 3 1 0 0 0 0 4
J.E.B. Stuart High School 0 0 13 17 17 15 62
James Fenimore Cooper Middle School 1 1 0 0 0 0 2
James Madison High School 0 0 1 0 2 2 5
James W. Robinson Jr. Secondary School 0 1 3 6 3 15 28
Lake Braddock Secondary School 2 0 4 3 5 5 19
Langley High School 0 0 1 2 0 3 6
Langston Hughes Middle School 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
Liberty Middle School 3 0 0 0 0 0 3
Luther Jackson Middle School 2 1 0 0 0 0 3
Mark Twain Middle School 5 1 0 0 0 0 6
McLean High School 0 0 0 1 4 7 12
Mount Vernon High School 0 0 13 12 19 15 59

Mountain View Alternative High School 0 0 0 9 23 22 54

Oakton High School 0 0 3 3 7 7 20
Oliver Wendell Holmes Middle School 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
Ormond Stone Middle School 1 0 0 0 0 0 1

Pimmit Hills Alternative High School 0 0 5 15 13 10 43

Rachel Carson Middle School 0 2 0 0 0 0 2
Robert E. Lee High School 0 0 7 13 15 12 47
Robert Frost Middle School 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
Sidney Lanier Middle School 2 3 0 0 0 0 5
South County Secondary School 0 1 3 4 9 13 30
South Lakes High School 0 0 2 6 10 8 26

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: adder ()
Date: April 05, 2011 12:59PM

> ...The numbers are: 2008-09 school year...

That doesn't add up to 69,000....what's going on?

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 01:26PM

TDot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My son was targeted by the school system when he
> was involved in a prank

This is where you lost my sympathy...

> The school, tipped of by the county police

... and this is where you gained my ire.

Do tell, what was the harmless little prank your precious snowflake was involved in that merited involvement from the police?

> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> This Zero Tolerance policy works to put children
> in a contained area, much like a jail, without the
> help and resources they need to blah blah blah

No, it doesn't. The school is not a substitute for your parenting. If your child has "underlying issues" that need to be addressed, that is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS A PARENT.

> The problem with the school system, is that there
> is no due process.

Ignoring the fact that it's school and not the criminal justice system, yes, there is an appeal process. You, as a parent, have the right to appeal the decision a several points in the process. Just because your "it was a harmless prank" argument didn't work DOESN'T mean there is no "due process."

> Our children do make poor
> decisions at times, and yes it does ruin their
> lives.

Your child did. There are a lot of children that don't.

> blah blah blah Police State blah blah blah

Let's look at a biased source: http://fairfaxzerotolerancereform.org/images/ZT_Overview_Factsheet_20110310v1.pdf

Their facts sheet says "In the six years from 2004-2010, the FCPS Hearings Office heard 5,024 cases that resulted in long-term suspensions or expulsions - not one was overturned." Neat!

Now consider that there's about 170,000 students per year enrolled in the county's schools every year. 170,000 multiplied by 6... carry the 2... There were approximately 1.02 million students in the school system in the same six-year time period.

That translates into one long-term suspension or expulsion for every 203 students over a six year period, or an approximate 0.5% long-term suspension/expulsion rate.

Obvious question: if the Zero-Tolerance Policy is so draconian and unfair, how are 99.5% of students able to get through the school system without being suspended?

The Zero-Tolerance Reform Fact Sheet also mentions there were 10,000 disciplinary issues in 2008-2009. That's one in seventeen students.

No sympathy.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: show your work ()
Date: April 05, 2011 01:44PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now consider that there's about 170,000 students
> per year enrolled in the county's schools every
> year. 170,000 multiplied by 6... carry the 2...
> There were approximately 1.02 million students in
> the school system in the same six-year time
> period.
>

You've got a math problem there. 6 year period with 170,000 students in 13 grades (K-12). Assuming a even disribution across grades, that's a turnover of about 13,000 per year (Seniors graduate, kindergardener's start). So you are talking about 170,000 students plus 5 years * 13,000 = 235,000 students. I did not account for people moving in and out. Maybe that pushes it up another 10 or 20K.

It ain't 1M.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 01:52PM

show your work Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've got a math problem there. 6 year period
> with 170,000 students in 13 grades (K-12).
> Assuming a even disribution across grades, that's
> a turnover of about 13,000 per year (Seniors
> graduate, kindergardener's start). So you are
> talking about 170,000 students plus 5 years *
> 13,000 = 235,000 students. I did not account for
> people moving in and out. Maybe that pushes it up
> another 10 or 20K.
>
> It ain't 1M.

There's approximately 170,000 students enrolled per year across the FCPS system.

http://www.fcps.edu/statis.htm

The actual projected number for 2010-2011 was 175,296. If there's 175k students in 2010-2011, it stands to reason there would have been approximately the same number of students in 2009-2010 with the turnover rate you mentioned.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: TDot ()
Date: April 05, 2011 01:54PM

Mr. Mephisto...

Harmless prank was lighting fireworks near a neighbors yard...Yes that's it.... Definitely a cause for the actions that the school took. The officer that responded to the complaint was the school resource officer when school resumed.

You are an ass. As for the numbers you state for cases overturned it does not surprise me, the review process is by another area within the public school system at the direction of the Superintendent, a true shocker that nothing is overturned.

By the way, as a former county officer I speak with some knowledge of the criminal justice system and how the county works and I was not looking for your sympathy. I am a very good parent and have done what I need to ensure my son gets the education that the county did not provide. Not everybody has resources to do that.

People should not attack those on here who are trying to highlight an issue, disagree if you want but until you have experienced some of these events you truly have no idea.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: inquiring ()
Date: April 05, 2011 02:17PM

> Harmless prank was lighting fireworks near a neighbors yard...

What did he blow up? What was he charged with?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: show your work ()
Date: April 05, 2011 02:20PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> show your work Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You've got a math problem there. 6 year period
> > with 170,000 students in 13 grades (K-12).
> > Assuming a even disribution across grades,
> that's
> > a turnover of about 13,000 per year (Seniors
> > graduate, kindergardener's start). So you are
> > talking about 170,000 students plus 5 years *
> > 13,000 = 235,000 students. I did not account
> for
> > people moving in and out. Maybe that pushes it
> up
> > another 10 or 20K.
> >
> > It ain't 1M.
>
> There's approximately 170,000 students enrolled
> per year across the FCPS system.
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/statis.htm
>
> The actual projected number for 2010-2011 was
> 175,296. If there's 175k students in 2010-2011, it
> stands to reason there would have been
> approximately the same number of students in
> 2009-2010 with the turnover rate you mentioned.


The school system does not turnover 170,000 students per year. It turns over the number graduated. So if there are 170,000 this year, and a class graduates of 13,000, and a new crop of Kindergardener's arrive in the fall, the total number of unique students that attended FCPS in those two years is 193,000, not 340,000. To get a per student ratio for disciplinary actions, you need to divide by the total number of students over that period time, not the annual enrollment * membership.

There are 170,000 student/year, so you could say in 1M student years over 6 years....but not 1M students.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: TDot ()
Date: April 05, 2011 02:22PM

He taped some fire crackers together...charged with manufacturing an explosive device...charges were reduced to fireworks violation in court.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: inquiring ()
Date: April 05, 2011 02:26PM

TDot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He taped some fire crackers together...charged
> with manufacturing an explosive device...charges
> were reduced to fireworks violation in court.

Yup - just looked up explosive on arrest database:

"BAGLINI ","MICHAEL ","A","046"," 13513","PORTAGE ","PL","CENTREVILLE ","VA","07/27/2007","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"BARTH ","SIMON ","E","019"," 1911","FOX HALL ","RD","MCLEAN ","VA","07/24/2009","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"BROWER ","RANDY ","D","018"," 4212","SUMMIT ","PL","ALEXANDRIA ","VA","08/12/2003","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"DAVIS ","WESLEY ","E","019"," 8462","MONARCH ","CT","ANNANDALE ","VA","05/27/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"EARLEY ","ROBERT ","A","019"," 1756","PIMMIT ","DR","FALLS CHURCH","VA","06/15/2005","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"FRIEDLAND ","JEFFREY ","D","030"," 10900","PAYNES CHURCH ","DR","FAIRFAX ","VA","10/11/2002","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GALINDO ","JAVIER ","E","019"," 7963","SAN LEANDRO ","PL","ALEXANDRIA ","VA","08/23/2006","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GOUDA ","HAZEM ","T","045"," 2811","LAURA GAE ","CI","VIENNA ","VA","04/01/2004","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GRINGRICH ","JOSHUA ","L","019"," 7768","GRANDWIND ","DR","LORTON ","VA","08/18/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GRINGRICH ","JOSHUA ","L","019"," 7768","GRANDWIND ","DR","LORTON ","VA","08/18/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GRINGRICH ","JOSHUA ","L","019"," 7768","GRANDWIND ","DR","LORTON ","VA","08/18/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GRINGRICH ","JOSHUA ","L","019"," 7768","GRANDWIND ","DR","LORTON ","VA","08/18/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GRINGRICH ","JOSHUA ","L","019"," 7768","GRANDWIND ","DR","LORTON ","VA","08/18/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GRINGRICH ","JOSHUA ","L","019"," 7768","GRANDWIND ","DR","LORTON ","VA","08/18/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"GRINGRICH ","JOSHUA ","L","019"," 7768","GRANDWIND ","DR","LORTON ","VA","08/18/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"HARP ","DENNIS ","E","019"," 5406","TRIPOLIS ","CT","BURKE ","VA","11/24/2006","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"HARRISON ","RE ","J","022"," 7505","PRINCE COLE ","CT","MANASSAS ","VA","07/16/2006","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"HAYDEN ","KYLE ","T","019"," 8429","SULKY ","CT","ALEXANDRIA ","VA","03/04/2009","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"LARA ","JOHNNY ","G","018"," 2872","GREAT OAK ","CT","FALLS CHURCH","VA","05/22/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"MCLEAN ","LEJUAN ","J","020"," 8532","HIGHLAND ","LA","ALEXANDRIA ","VA","12/02/2003","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"MCNAMARA ","GARRETT "," ","018"," 1308","ELSINORE ","AV","MCLEAN ","VA","11/29/2007","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"NAVEED ","SYED "," ","019"," 4670","SOUTHLAND ","AV","ALEXANDRIA ","VA","05/27/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"POSTOL ","RAYMOND ","R","019"," 6340","CHOWNING ","PL","MCLEAN ","VA","06/15/2005","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"ROBINSON ","JOEL ","M","019"," 9406","ULYSSES ","CT","BURKE ","VA","09/27/2004","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"ROFFMAN ","DAVID ","V","020"," 6647","HAZEL ","LN","MCLEAN ","VA","07/24/2009","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"ROSSMAN ","BRUD ","R","039"," 2321","SAWTOOH OAK ","DR","VIENNA ","VA","01/07/2003","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"TAVAMPIS ","VLASIS "," ","019"," 9122","ARLINGTON ","BV","FAIRFAX ","VA","05/23/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"TENG ","NIVAN ","K","021"," 7067","IDYLWOOD ","RD","FALLS CHURCH","VA","06/15/2005","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"WONG ","LAWRENCE "," ","018"," 3430","HOLLY ","RD","ANNANDALE ","VA","05/23/2008","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"WRAY ","STEVEN ","A","019"," 13716","ADELPH ","CT","CHANTILLY ","VA","02/29/2004","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "
"YANEZ ","JULIAN ","B","019"," 612","CAPITAL HTS ","BV","CAPITAL HTS ","MD","09/08/2006","MANU/POSS/USE/TRANS EXPLOSIVE "

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:00PM

TDot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mr. Mephisto...
>
> Harmless prank was lighting fireworks near a
> neighbors yard...Yes that's it.... Definitely a
> cause for the actions that the school took. The
> officer that responded to the complaint was the
> school resource officer when school resumed.

I'm sure there's a lot more to it than simply lighting fireworks near a neighbor's yard, but nobody ever comes on here and divulges the full story. Obviously, something happened during this "harmless prank" that merited police involvement.

First you say it was the county police that notified the school, and now you say the cop that busted your kid also worked for the school. The fact that you're writing off something your child did that necessitated police involvement as a "harmless prank" also speaks volumes.

> You are an ass.

I've been called worse by better.

> As for the numbers you state for
> cases overturned it does not surprise me, the
> review process is by another area within the
> public school system at the direction of the
> Superintendent, a true shocker that nothing is
> overturned.

It doesn't surprise you that less than one percent of FCPS students have difficulty following simple rules?

And now you're acknowledging there is a process, despite saying earlier that there was no "due process?"

> I am a very good parent and have
> done what I need to ensure my son gets the
> education that the county did not provide. Not
> everybody has resources to do that.

... except teach him the difference between criminal mischief and a "harmless prank." No, not everyone has the resources to fight suspensions or expulsions, but teaching one's child how to not be a fuck up is free.

> People should not attack those on here who are
> trying to highlight an issue, disagree if you want
> but until you have experienced some of these
> events you truly have no idea.

I'm not attacking you. I'm pointing out that the overwhelming majority of parents and students have absolutely none of these problems. It's a very select few that have kids who do something a simpleton knows is wrong, then blames the school Junior's mistakes.

The real world's Zero Tolerance policies are much, much more severe than this simple shit that FCPS expects.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:05PM

show your work Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The school system does not turnover 170,000
> students per year. It turns over the number
> graduated. So if there are 170,000 this year, and
> a class graduates of 13,000, and a new crop of
> Kindergardener's arrive in the fall, the total
> number of unique students that attended FCPS in
> those two years is 193,000, not 340,000. To get a
> per student ratio for disciplinary actions, you
> need to divide by the total number of students
> over that period time, not the annual enrollment *
> membership.
>
> There are 170,000 student/year, so you could say
> in 1M student years over 6 years....but not 1M
> students.

I see what you're saying. I didn't explain it right, but that's what I was getting at. One million plus opportunities to fuck up, but only five thousand instances of actual fucking up.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:06PM

TDot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He taped some fire crackers together...charged
> with manufacturing an explosive device...charges
> were reduced to fireworks violation in court.

What kind of "fire crackers?"

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: BeenThere ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:12PM

TDot has a point about School Resource Officers. They are considered POLICE and SCHOOL administrators, so they can interview your kid solo, without the School Admin. present unlike other Police Officers. In the school lingo, they are in loco parentis - like having your parents there although they are not required to notify the parents.

Its quite surprising there has not been a student shot in school by an armed SRO when you consider the odds. The SRO I encountered a few years back was a bully with a badge.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: TDot ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:12PM

They were run of the mill black cat firecrackers

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:15PM

So he taped a bunch of firecrackers together and detonated them near the neighbor's property. Who called the police and why?

EDIT: Screw it, I don't care. My parents didn't buy me firecrackers because they knew, as a kid, I'd do dumb shit with them like this. I also know what would happen to me if they caught me going behind their back and getting them anyway, so I never had these problems.

Boo hoo.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 03:17PM by MrMephisto.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: TDot ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:20PM

Not sure who called the police...I assume the neighbor whose yard he was standing near. There is no doubt that he should not have been playing with fireworks...but the whole situation could have been handled much better by the police not involving the school. This event had no bearing on the school system.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: TDot ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:22PM

Mr. Mephisto,

I am just amazed at how perfect you think you are. Get a life and stop being an ass.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: TDot ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:29PM

TDot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mr. Mephisto,
>
> I am just amazed at how perfect you think you are.
> Get a life and stop being an ass.


By the way, Your parents obviously did an awesome job with you. I see that you spend 99% of you time on here involving yourself in mindless bantering about issues you know nothing about.

Again, get off the couch, put the Twinkies away and get a life dude!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: agreewmphisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:33PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So he taped a bunch of firecrackers together and
> detonated them near the neighbor's property. Who
> called the police and why?
>
> EDIT: Screw it, I don't care. My parents didn't
> buy me firecrackers because they knew, as a kid,
> I'd do dumb shit with them like this. I also know
> what would happen to me if they caught me going
> behind their back and getting them anyway, so I
> never had these problems.
>
> Boo hoo.

obviously a alck of prental supervision in this case; same with acne girl. Really surprised by the pivotal role her mum played in that debacle!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: facts ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:35PM

TDot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure who called the police...I assume the
> neighbor whose yard he was standing near. There is
> no doubt that he should not have been playing with
> fireworks...but the whole situation could have
> been handled much better by the police not
> involving the school. This event had no bearing on
> the school system.

Got to agree with that. Right now, the whole system is spring loaded to crash down on kids - cops in schools to make anything that happens there a crime, and schools getting involved in basically anything that happens anywhere, not just school grounds/functions.

There was an incident not long ago of a teacher losing her job because she had a picture on Facebook of her holding a glass of wine while on vaction in Europe. Doing something totally legal, a continent away - no students involved, etc. Last year, a coach in Frederick was fired because a parent brought a six pack to a cook out at his house for the team.

So it's not just students - teachers too can get caught in this crap. Punishing people for doing entirely legal activities, completely overblown reactions to minor offenses. Everyone in the entire system is scared shitless than they will get caught doing something minor and be shown the door, or worse charged with a crime.

Yet we have real estate scam artist running one of our largest High Schools. Go figure!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 05, 2011 03:52PM

facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Got to agree with that. Right now, the whole
> system is spring loaded to crash down on kids -
> cops in schools to make anything that happens
> there a crime, and schools getting involved in
> basically anything that happens anywhere, not just
> school grounds/functions.
>
> There was an incident not long ago of a teacher
> losing her job because she had a picture on
> Facebook of her holding a glass of wine while on
> vaction in Europe. Doing something totally legal,
> a continent away - no students involved, etc.
> Last year, a coach in Frederick was fired because
> a parent brought a six pack to a cook out at his
> house for the team.
>
> So it's not just students - teachers too can get
> caught in this crap. Punishing people for doing
> entirely legal activities, completely overblown
> reactions to minor offenses. Everyone in the
> entire system is scared shitless than they will
> get caught doing something minor and be shown the
> door, or worse charged with a crime.
>
> Yet we have real estate scam artist running one of
> our largest High Schools. Go figure!

------------------------------------------------------

um, you do know that neither of the incidents you mentioned have anything to do with Fairfax County, right?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 04:14PM

TDot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, Your parents obviously did an awesome
> job with you. I see that you spend 99% of you time
> on here involving yourself in mindless bantering
> about issues you know nothing about.
>
> Again, get off the couch, put the Twinkies away
> and get a life dude!

How about I put the Twinkies away and you start being a responsible parent?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 08:26PM

Mephisto-

Not gonna argue with you that parents should parent and not the schools, but it seems that one of the basic assumptions of your argument is that, if a parent properly parents, the kid will never make a mistake.

Have you considered that not only is growing up a process, but parenting is too? I'm not a parent, but I believe that even being an excellent parent won't guarantee that your kid never messes up. the kid still has their own ability to do whatever they want in a limited manner.

Your argument to me seems sort of like "if a coach coaches a team with excellence, then that team will always be undefeated." Obviously, that's not the case; in the same manner, "if a parent raises their kid with excellence, then the kid will always have perfect behavior" seems just as absurd, yet it's a tenet you lean on consistently in your posts.

And for the record I'm a graduate of FCPS, never had any disciplinary problems, and am a student justice at the university I now go to.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 05, 2011 08:49PM

50287100 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mephisto-
>
> Not gonna argue with you that parents should
> parent and not the schools, but it seems that one
> of the basic assumptions of your argument is that,
> if a parent properly parents, the kid will never
> make a mistake.
>
> Have you considered that not only is growing up a
> process, but parenting is too? I'm not a parent,
> but I believe that even being an excellent parent
> won't guarantee that your kid never messes up. the
> kid still has their own ability to do whatever
> they want in a limited manner.
>
> Your argument to me seems sort of like "if a coach
> coaches a team with excellence, then that team
> will always be undefeated." Obviously, that's not
> the case; in the same manner, "if a parent raises
> their kid with excellence, then the kid will
> always have perfect behavior" seems just as
> absurd, yet it's a tenet you lean on consistently
> in your posts.
>
> And for the record I'm a graduate of FCPS, never
> had any disciplinary problems, and am a student
> justice at the university I now go to.
---------------------------------------------------------
to Devil's Advocate, I believe Mephisto aint saying that the kid will "never make a mistake" at all.

All he's saying it that blaming the school system instead of simply DEALING with the issue at hand, is stupid.

Issues are going to happen with children. Parents should be able to handle such things, and work WITH the school system instead of fight them - if they want what's best for their kids. Take the girl who got busted for the acne medication. She got caught violating a WELL DOCUMENTED school rule. Common sense says: you take yr medicine, take the one month suspension and move on. Instead the parents and the kid decide to fight it, even though they know the kid broke the rules, and drag this crap out.

I mean, if you know the rules are there, and you know WHY the rules are there, why act like you are BETTER than the rules in place.

I dont think Mephisto is saying that kids should never get into trouble - I think he's saying IF they do, the parents should learn how to deal with the sitch (i.e actually PARENT their kids) instead of simply just blame the school rules

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 09:47PM

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>.....

Seems to make sense.

On another note, the fact of the matter is 99.9% of kids will screw up and get caught. It's just a matter of if they get caught by their parents, by the cops, or in school, etc. Whatever the percentage is of kids who face disciplinary action within FCPS, it can be said that these are simply the part of that 99.9% who screwed up in school. Because to knowingly break a rule is to "act like you are BETTER than the rules in place," it can be said that just about every kid will think themselves better than some rule at some point.

And, per my point above, the parents cannot necessarily be to blame (although there are some awful parents, of course).

So the kid screwed up at school, and the parents cannot be to blame. Therefore, the kid screwed up completely of their own accord, by their own free will, and are now a part of the FCPS disciplinary process. Just because of this simple condition of the kid (being under the FCPS process), this does not necessarily make them a "bad kid;" for a kid to screw up does not make them a "bad kid" it makes them, by nature, "immature," that is, "not mature", that is "not adult," therefore a kid. Kids by their nature screw up. To treat a kid like an adult is to ignore this fact; to levy an adult-style punishment that is arguably disproportionally high to the original crime is to ignore the nature of a child.

Some might say, "well kids are supposed to grow up in high school." Agreed, but again, should this be the role of the parents, or the school? I say the parents, but this will not always be the case if the parents want to be "cool." Nevertheless, it is not appropriate for the hearings board to attempt such a speculation.

The hearings board must recognize the innate nature of one who is not adult and, recognizing this nature, levy punishments that give a clear message to the offender that their behavior is not tolerated while, depending on the case, encourage the offender to take steps to rectify their ways. For some, the best means is to send them to another school. For others, such a displacement can be more harming than beneficial. Therefore, hearings must be examined on a case-by-case basis. Even if the point of transferring student is to remove the dangerous offender from their environment, a transfer simply places them in another FCPS environment.

tl;dr the hearings board must conduct every hearing and levy punishments on a purely case-by-case basis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 09:50PM by 50287100.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 09:54PM

And in response to the absence of due process within the hearings process, it is true that students have basically no rights upon entering school. However, just because a hearings board CAN deny a student due process, the presence of a parent at the original in-school questioning, etc, does it mean it should? I have the power and right to eat nothing but ice cream for the next 5 years, but by the end of those 5 years I'll be extremely unhealthy and would have been better off not exercising such a power in the first place.

The hearings board needs to grant these students some basic rights; at its current state, it appears that its inappropriate exercise of power has caused it to become fat and unhealthy, and now parents of FCPS want it to "go on a diet," if you will, and rectify its ways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 09:55PM by 50287100.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 10:08PM

Last one, I swear.

When a kid gets in trouble, the parent should absolutely accept that. To sue FCPS is not a correct course of action.

Mephisto says ZT is in effect in order to avoid lawsuits. The main example here used is the acne med girl, where she could give it to student 2 who has an allergic reaction.

I don't believe that because something COULD have happened, means that the hearings board should punish someone more for this. This would be viable if the hearings board also accused the offender of "creating a dangerous environment," or something of the like, otherwise speculating on what was possible only serves to bloat the original charge and is not based in facts and evidence. Since it does not appear that the hearings board includes "creating a dangerous environment" in the typical case, it must be that the latter is the reality, which needs to be fixed.

And in regards to ZT's existence to avoid lawsuits, it's obvious that under ZT parents aren't happy. With a different system, parents still won't be happy. Parents will never be happy. Knowing this, the main issue on how to conduct hearings is what manner best serves all parties involved. As shown above, that manner is a case-by-case, evidence and factually-based process that allows students basic rights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 10:14PM by 50287100.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 05, 2011 10:16PM

@50287100 - I'm not saying it's a perfect policy - but it's not a perfect world either, y'know?

Look at it this way - if a neighbor's child comes to your house, and does something like kicks yr kid while in yr house, is there a "due process" hearing on the situation? Does that same kid have "basic rights" if he/she turns your oven and stovetop on full blast and starts a fire? You can kick that kid out yr house without having a trial by jury, y'know.

And let's be honest here - children do not have "right of due process' as defined by law. Only adults do. Children have a right to safety and security, but not necessarily to "due process" in an academic environment. Aint nothing in the Constitution that says that, plain and simple. That's reality. Is it fair? No. But those are the facts.

Currently, we have children huffing household inhalants and taking their parents meds and selling them for cash in school. That's REALITY. And that's why there are certain rules in place - to try and keep that sorta thing from happening. It's not like FCPS made up these rules just out their ass for fun, y'know? And it's not like kids dont know these rules, either. It's a different world than when we went to school, and the school system evolved with it. I get that it's hard for some parents to keep up with it, but to blame the school system just cause it DID keep up with the changing times, well that's just ludicrous.

You say the board can deny a student due process, presence of a parent, etc. I say the student can LEAVE at any time they choose, and take the consequences of their actions. Ppl tend to forget that not one of these students were FORCED to stay, under threat of arrest, physical harm, or anything like that. Worst thing that would happen is that they get kicked out of school - and if they were violating the rules previous to this, it's not like they really cared about learning in the first place, which is kinda what school is there for.

No one kid is BETTER than the rules of the school. And that's the real problem - some kids, and apparently some parents feel their kids are BETTER than the rules in place. If you want to change said rules thru the system, then that's fine and dandy. But to act like you are above the rules, that they should not matter to you, or your child, then that's just some stuck-up b.s. that I just cant stand.

Not saying "you" per se. Just using that pronoun to make my point, is all.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 10:33PM

50287100 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your argument to me seems sort of like "if a coach
> coaches a team with excellence, then that team
> will always be undefeated." Obviously, that's not
> the case; in the same manner, "if a parent raises
> their kid with excellence, then the kid will
> always have perfect behavior" seems just as
> absurd, yet it's a tenet you lean on consistently
> in your posts.

No. My argument is more "if a coach teaches the players the rules of the game and the players break them, it's not the referee's fault."

People seem to be under the impression that violating school policy is a "mistake." It is not. Missing the bus at the bus stop because you slept in is a mistake. Forgetting to do your homework is a mistake. Not returning your books to the library on the due date is a mistake.

Bringing drugs to school, getting into fights, vandalizing/destroying school property, wearing inappropriate clothing... These are not mistakes. There is a conscious choice made to do these things, even though you know they're wrong. If a child is making these choices, then I don't question the school's reaction; I question what their parents are doing.

Kids are going to do dumb shit; that's one of the defining characteristics of being a kid. It's up to the parents, though, to tell their kid which shit is dumb and the consequences thereof. Take Acne Girl, for instance. Her parents had to read the rules and sign their acknowledgment. When they got her the prescription, did they tell her to not take it to school? If they told her it was OK, did they not tell her to register it with the nurse?

Kids don't know any better, which is why they don't have the same legal privileges as adults. It is the parents' responsibility to teach them what not to do, and when the school is putting it in writing in plain English for them, it's hard for me to feel sympathetic.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 10:46PM

That's not an accurate comparison; if I see the kid start a fire in my house, the guilt has been immediately found through the evidence presented; I find him guilty of starting a fire in my house and punish him accordingly, by kicking him out.

The members of the hearings board do not directly witness the offenses and that's why they have the fact-finding process.

I didn't say FCPS MUST grant due process, just that they should; despite the fact that their denial of this to students apparently seems to be doing more harm than good and hence they should change it, they still have the power to deny it, if they so desire.

And I graduated high school less than 2 years ago--I'm not that far removed from high school culture. I agree with your portrait of high school reality; however this reality will exist no matter what punishments the hearings boards dole out. I don't have the problem with the rules, my main problem is that, while the hearings boards are granted power by the SR&R to determine punishments on a case-by-case basis, they fail to do so, ultimately for the harm of all involved.

I don't know the whole process behind unenrolling in FCPS, but I could imagine that it is solely up to the student. A student can't literally just leave; truancy officers will force otherwise. However, this isn't entirely relevant. One of the basic assumptions of the hearings process is that the student will remain enrolled to serve their punishment. Otherwise the entire process is nullified, along with this discussion. Plus, because one breaks a rule doesn't mean they didn't care about learning in the first place. Yeah, some kids are like that, but you're telling me that, generally, the students that go before the hearings board don't care about their education?


True, no kid is better than the rules, and parents fail to see it. However, whether or not the kid truly believes this or messed up one time and realizes they're not better than the rules is part of the fact-finding process; in the example of Stuban, he was clearly remorseful for his temporary lack of realization that he was not better than the rules, and the hearings board failed to recognize this. People will break rules and thus, have a periodical lapse in judgement; it is only in cases where a student displays a pattern of disregard for the rules that they should be classified as "thinking themselves better than the rules."

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 10:52PM

from dictionary.com:

mistake:
–noun
1.
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.

An error in judgement is indeed a mistake. Mistakes can in fact be conscious.

We agree that kids, by nature, make mistakes. And that you question what their parents are doing. Acne girl was a display of far from perfect parenting, but what if the situation were changed so the parent knew the rules, told her daughter not to bring the medication, and did anyway?

The kid was acting as kids do, the parents did nothing wrong. Who is to blame?

If the player breaks a rule, we don't blame the ref. Nor do we blame the coach. We blame the player.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: mmoore ()
Date: April 05, 2011 10:54PM

The school needs to contact the parents and/or bring them if there are problems.
Parents DO want to discipline the children, that's what I'm hearing on these threads.
Yes, there are parents who don't take responsibility for their kids. I'm pretty sure these are the families we don't want abusing our resources. So kick them out if corrections aren't made at home. Easy.

I believe the larger problem lies with the SB and FCPS administration. The best interest of the kids are not at the heart of decisions-ever. Whether the Zero Tolerance (or any policy/decisions) are being addressed, decisions are made consistently inside FCPS offices before obligatory public and community outreach sessions are sought. The community's subsequent feedback is more questions as information is not forthcoming.
This angers people - wasting their time and resources to establish a platform for the fait accompli.
Naturally, parents respond defensively - this is rude and let's face it... corrupt. The "teaching moment" is gone, that kid will not be able to remedy poor choices, let alone learn from these events.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:10PM

I'd post a video of what happens the other 99.99999% of the time, but videos of parents sitting watching a sporting event without some kind of physical violence is really boring.

I was wondering when the ROFLMAOs and Lolz were going to come out.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:17PM

mmoore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The school needs to contact the parents and/or
> bring them if there are problems.
> Parents DO want to discipline the children, that's
> what I'm hearing on these threads.
> Yes, there are parents who don't take
> responsibility for their kids. I'm pretty sure
> these are the families we don't want abusing our
> resources. So kick them out if corrections aren't
> made at home. Easy.
>
> I believe the larger problem lies with the SB and
> FCPS administration. The best interest of the
> kids are not at the heart of decisions-ever.
> Whether the Zero Tolerance (or any
> policy/decisions) are being addressed, decisions
> are made consistently inside FCPS offices before
> obligatory public and community outreach sessions
> are sought. The community's subsequent feedback
> is more questions as information is not
> forthcoming.
> This angers people - wasting their time and
> resources to establish a platform for the fait
> accompli.
> Naturally, parents respond defensively - this is
> rude and let's face it... corrupt. The "teaching
> moment" is gone, that kid will not be able to
> remedy poor choices, let alone learn from these
> events.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

you know, if parents were doing there JOB, and being more PROACTIVE, instead of responding DEFENSIVELY, as you state, when their kids got in trouble, these issues wouldnt be happening half as much as they are now.

Funny how the FCPS has to be more into the interests of the kids than the actual PARENTS of the kids

What a load of crap.

Im sorry, but if I get a call from school telling me my one of my kids is fucking up, I'm gonna be WAAYYYYYY more interested in what they are telling me, than what my kid is telling me. Know why? CAUSE I REMEMBER WHAT BEING A KID IS LIKE, and I REMEMBER BEING ALL C.Y.A. about my actions. Apparently, lotsa of parents around here have forgotten that, and think their little angels walk on water, instead of owing up to the simple fact their kids are just that - KIDS

Some of y'all srlsy acting like the school system is an enemy to yr kids - no wonder shit is all fked up these day o_0

Parents who want to be part of the system are doing what is NORMAL, and interacting with teachers and admin staff on a regular basis BEFORE issues happen. That's how I'm running things, and I'm a bloody moron. So I know there are others smarter and wiser than I am doing the same thing.


I love my kids - but DAY-UM, I dont think they arent gonna mess up sometimes. And they know that they better at least know the rules cause they know if I find out they've been effing around with the rules, after the school gets thru with them, they are gonna have to deal with psycho-daddy. And they know this-which is what helps keep them on the straight and narrow :)

If that girl had known her parents would have tanned her hid for fucking up, she would have taken her crappy medicine to the nurse FIRST THING, yo.

And THAT'S what parenting in all about.....................

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Freesia Jackson ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:21PM

Zero-tolerance doesn't just hurt drug users. I was suspended for 10 days and recommended to be expelled for taking a birth control pill at school that was prescribed to me. I had no priors with a 4.0 GPA. I sincerely feel that my suspension was due to how conservative my high school was. Either way, that suspension ruined my chances of getting into any respectable college. The only good thing that came out of it was the Colbert Report segment. I am a strong believer in reforming the zero-tolerance policy because i am a victim of it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:28PM

Freesia Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zero-tolerance doesn't just hurt drug users. I was
> suspended for 10 days and recommended to be
> expelled for taking a birth control pill at school
> that was prescribed to me. I had no priors with a
> 4.0 GPA. I sincerely feel that my suspension was
> due to how conservative my high school was. Either
> way, that suspension ruined my chances of getting
> into any respectable college. The only good thing
> that came out of it was the Colbert Report
> segment. I am a strong believer in reforming the
> zero-tolerance policy because i am a victim of it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

sry that happened to you

but let me ask you this, since you were all 4.0 and everything................

why didnt you report yr pills to the school nurse?

like you were supposed to?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:29PM

Hey what's up Freesia! Wow what a coincidence. You know me; I'm a friend of Flynn's.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Freesia ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:32PM

Honestly, that was stupid on my part but we were only given 25 minutes for lunch and i didnt want to spend 5 of them walking to the nurse's office. I got away with it for over 9 months so after a while i didnt even think about turning them in.
And hey, which friend of Alex's are you?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: 50287100 ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:36PM

At the risk of divulging to much info here, I'll go ahead and say that it's Stephen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Freesia ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:51PM

Oh hey Stephen!Im gonna text you, hopefully you havent changed your number.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 05, 2011 11:54PM

Freesia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Honestly, that was stupid on my part but we were
> only given 25 minutes for lunch and i didnt want
> to spend 5 of them walking to the nurse's office.

Was it worth it?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: your government is for them ()
Date: April 06, 2011 07:25AM

If FCPS is going to have a "canned" set of punishments for various infractions, why bother having a hearings office? It costs something like 2 million to have those people sitting there. If they are there as "window dressing"---to give the appearance of a "process" that "hears" the "case", here's a solution:

The SR&R needs to be much fewer pages. They just need to write what the punishments are for various infractions. Add in first offense, second offense, whatever. Detail the transfer to other schools, to alternative schools, and "kicked out" options. Then just do it. No overturns on appeals just shows how the system is not about any "hearings". As many posters are saying, the kids have no "rights"---so why do we give them and their parents the illusion that there are "rights"?

We should just do like they do in China---bullet to the head---right? Then we get rid of all the "bad" kids and everybody knows what the punishment is---no questions need be asked. How dare any of these horrible parents ask any questions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 06, 2011 08:35AM

your government is for them Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We should just do like they do in China---bullet
> to the head---right? Then we get rid of all the
> "bad" kids and everybody knows what the punishment
> is---no questions need be asked. How dare any of
> these horrible parents ask any questions.

+1

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: ConservativeBob ()
Date: April 06, 2011 10:25AM

@ MrMephisto and GordonBlvd ---

Did you guys have you asses kicked every day in school?
Were you the ones the other other kids made fun of?

not every thing is black and white. You two need to get over being picked on as kids and get to the therapist for help.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 06, 2011 10:32AM

ConservativeBob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @ MrMephisto and GordonBlvd ---
>
> Did you guys have you asses kicked every day in
> school?
> Were you the ones the other other kids made fun
> of?
>
> not every thing is black and white. You two need
> to get over being picked on as kids and get to the
> therapist for help.

Let me answer your questions with more questions:

Did your parents tell you that you were a special and unique snowflake?
When you fucked up and got in trouble, did your parents blame everyone but you?
Do you think the rules shouldn't apply to everyone equally?
Do you believe that kids who bring drugs to school are just misunderstood?

If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, you might have a vagina. Please refrain from having children.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: ConservativeBob ()
Date: April 06, 2011 10:37AM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ConservativeBob Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > @ MrMephisto and GordonBlvd ---
> >
> > Did you guys have you asses kicked every day in
> > school?
> > Were you the ones the other other kids made fun
> > of?
> >
> > not every thing is black and white. You two
> need
> > to get over being picked on as kids and get to
> the
> > therapist for help.
>
> Let me answer your questions with more questions:
>
> Did your parents tell you that you were a special
> and unique snowflake?
> When you fucked up and got in trouble, did your
> parents blame everyone but you?
> Do you think the rules shouldn't apply to everyone
> equally?
> Do you believe that kids who bring drugs to school
> are just misunderstood?
>
> If you answered "yes" to any of these questions,
> you might have a vagina. Please refrain from
> having children.


I will assume that by avoidance of the questions that the ass kickings did occur for you and your cohort.

I assure you, that I have no Vagina. As for having kids...You should be the poster child for a reason to have an abortion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 06, 2011 10:43AM

I will assume that by avoidance of the questions that you were definitely led to believe you are more important and special than you really are. The vagina thing is also true.

See how that works?

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the current policy, that's fine, but keep your pathetic insults to yourself. You're really not good at it at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Paul the mailman ()
Date: April 06, 2011 10:59AM

my turn! i want to hear the answer too.

@ MrMephisto and GordonBlvd ---

Did you guys have you asses kicked every day in school?
Were you the ones the other other kids made fun of?

not every thing is black and white. You two need to get over being picked on as kids and get to the therapist for help.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:30AM

Paul the mailman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> my turn! i want to hear the answer too.
>
> @ MrMephisto and GordonBlvd ---
>
> Did you guys have you asses kicked every day in
> school?

I can't speak for Mr. Blvd, but no, I never got into a fight in school.

> Were you the ones the other other kids made fun
> of?

Nope.

> not every thing is black and white.

Agreed. Not everything is black and white. In this case, however, it most certainly is.

I still can't understand how this is so complicated:

1. School sets the rules and punishments.
2. School informs parents of the rules and punishments in writing.
3. Parents agree to the rules and punishments in writing.

Are parents not letting their kids read the SR&R that they're signing their agreement to?

I can't help but notice that NOBODY is complaining about the actual rules; they're only complaining about the punishment. Nobody is saying that the prescription medication rule is too severe, they're only complaining about the punishment their precious snowflake receives when they're caught with an unregistered prescription medication.

Nobody is saying that kids should be allowed to fight, bring drugs and weapons to school, and disrespect their teachers; they're only complaining about the punishment incurred when their little darling does so.

Parents are doing their children a huge injustice by arguing that the punishment for breaking the clearly-defined and very-simple rules is unfair. When your child turns 18, they're not giving a written set of rules they have to sign their agreement to; they are automatically subject to the same laws that govern EVERYONE over 18. There is no "transfer someplace else if I fuck up" policy. You break the law and you will pay, whether it's a fine, jail time, lawyer fees, or the loss of your job.

It doesn't matter if your kid has a 4.0, because the real world will not care about their attendance record or GPA if they break the law. Granted, the law is not perfect, but you rarely see anyone trying to change the punishment for breaking the law. If you want change, you have to fix the law itself.

Now, which school rules do you whiny parents and kids think are completely unfair?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: RealConservative ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:41AM

Hey conservative bob, PICS OR GTFO!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: dickface ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:45AM

MrMephisto is a worthless loser

Imagine this guy:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.markalmighty.com/wp/wp-content/gallery/geeks-nerds-and-dorks/fat-nerd-computer.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.markalmighty.com/2011/02/12/what-is-crossfit/&usg=__1Is1QqsqNzhblbNZK4T64r5vgSk=&h=480&w=640&sz=39&hl=en&start=1&zoom=1&tbnid=JvcEWrF98xxhzM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&ei=fYqcTfeWIYbEgQfdkNHCBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfat%2Bcomputer%2Bnerd%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1408%26bih%3D668%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1



Paul the mailman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> my turn! i want to hear the answer too.
>
> @ MrMephisto and GordonBlvd ---
>
> Did you guys have you asses kicked every day in
> school?
> Were you the ones the other other kids made fun
> of?
>
> not every thing is black and white. You two need
> to get over being picked on as kids and get to the
> therapist for help.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: ConservativeBob ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:46AM

@Paul The Mailman:

He may be right...you don't here about many fights at an all girls school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: ConservativeBob ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:48AM

Just saw that I made a type-o: Should be hear not here

He may be right...you don't hear about many fights at an all girls school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: bs! ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:49AM

Freesia Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zero-tolerance doesn't just hurt drug users. I was
> suspended for 10 days and recommended to be
> expelled for taking a birth control pill at school
> that was prescribed to me. I had no priors with a
> 4.0 GPA. I sincerely feel that my suspension was
> due to how conservative my high school was. Either
> way, that suspension ruined my chances of getting
> into any respectable college. The only good thing
> that came out of it was the Colbert Report
> segment. I am a strong believer in reforming the
> zero-tolerance policy because i am a victim of it.


What right does the school have to look into the medicine cabinet of a high school girl taking birth control pills? A lot of these rules have nothing to do with safety and security, and everything to do with control and intimidation. When you sign the SR&R, apparently you give up all HPPA rights as well.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Realconservative ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:50AM

Hey ConservativeBob pics or GTFO!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:51AM

dickface Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto is a worthless loser
>
> Imagine this guy:

DURR HURR HURR, NEVER SEEN THAT PICTURE BEFORE, LOL.

Idiot.

ConservativeBob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just saw that I made a type-o: Should be hear not
> here
>
> He may be right...you don't hear about many fights
> at an all girls school.

1. That joke was not funny enough the first time that you needed to clarify.
2. Thank you for proving my point.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:53AM

bs! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What right does the school have to look into the
> medicine cabinet of a high school girl taking
> birth control pills? A lot of these rules have
> nothing to do with safety and security, and
> everything to do with control and intimidation.
> When you sign the SR&R, apparently you give up all
> HPPA rights as well.

As a parent you agree that your kid must register medication with the nurse, if you don't like the rules don't sign your agreement to them, put your kid in a private school or home school them, etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: facts ()
Date: April 06, 2011 11:59AM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bs! Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What right does the school have to look into
> the
> > medicine cabinet of a high school girl taking
> > birth control pills? A lot of these rules have
> > nothing to do with safety and security, and
> > everything to do with control and intimidation.
>
> > When you sign the SR&R, apparently you give up
> all
> > HPPA rights as well.
>
> As a parent you agree that your kid must register
> medication with the nurse, if you don't like the
> rules don't sign your agreement to them, put your
> kid in a private school or home school them, etc.


I've (and my kids) have signed my last SR&R. I encourage others to do the same this fall. Let's see what FCPS has to say about that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: April 06, 2011 12:24PM

facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've (and my kids) have signed my last SR&R. I
> encourage others to do the same this fall. Let's
> see what FCPS has to say about that.

LOL

Probably nothing that you want to hear.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Bert ()
Date: April 06, 2011 04:11PM

"I've (and my kids) have signed my last SR&R. I encourage others to do the same this fall. Let's see what FCPS has to say about that."


Bravo, Bravo. These miserable bullies and cowardly petty tyrants within the FCPS administration have had their day,and their Reign of Terror is nearly at an end.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Gordon Blvd ()
Date: April 06, 2011 04:22PM

Bert Wrote:

> Bravo, Bravo. These miserable bullies and cowardly
> petty tyrants within the FCPS administration have
> had their day,and their Reign of Terror is nearly
> at an end.

---------------------------------------------------

ROFLMAO@ "Reign of Terror"

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Bert ()
Date: April 06, 2011 04:24PM

"ROFLMAO@ "Reign of Terror""

ROFLMAO@ ROFLMAO@Reign of Terror

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Parental Opinion ()
Date: April 06, 2011 04:46PM

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a parent you agree that your kid must register
> medication with the nurse, if you don't like the
> rules don't sign your agreement to them

Minor correction - which I'm surprised the pro-bad-kid folks haven't noted yet - you are not agreeing to anything when you sign off on the SR&R - you are simply noting that you have received it.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Vert ()
Date: April 06, 2011 04:49PM

Minor correction - which I'm surprised the phony-holier-than-thou-hypocrites-with bad-kids turds haven't noted yet - you are agreeing to the terms when you sign off on the SR&R - you are simply noting that you have received it.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Tooley ()
Date: April 06, 2011 04:52PM

"bad kids" roflmao! I guess Obama would be a "bad kid", given he was a confessed pot user in his youth. Would have been expelled from FCPS in a heartbeat. Maybe all kids should give pot a try..they may just go on the be Senators, Presidents, and win the Nobel Peace prize.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Nardo ()
Date: April 06, 2011 04:55PM

Hell yeah, give pot a try! Ya just might go on to be a "bad kid" like Michael Phelps, and be recognized as the greatest Olympic athlete of all time.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Leetry ()
Date: April 06, 2011 05:02PM

Holy Sheeet, imagine what the FCPS nazis would have done to bad kids like this:

http://museum.mit.edu/nom150/entries/120

Remember, this happened in 1982, so these MIT kids are now hugely successful chemists,phyicists,biolgists, computer sceintists, surgeons, architects, etc. etc...

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Parental Opinion ()
Date: April 06, 2011 05:02PM

Tooley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "bad kids" roflmao! I guess Obama would be a "bad
> kid", given he was a confessed pot user in his
> youth.

Incorrect - the bad kids are the ones who take that smoking et al to school, as noted many many times on this and other similar threads.

That's one of the major problems with the pro-bad-kids folks - they LITERALLY do not understand what's going on.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Dany ()
Date: April 06, 2011 05:04PM

Good grief, an exploding device during a football game! FCPS officials would have charged these kids with attempted murder and expelled them all. As it was, however, they held a hilarious press conference were celebrated as heroes. They have since become legends.

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Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: Vert ()
Date: April 06, 2011 05:07PM

Incorrect - the "bad kids" are the ones who get caught whereas the "good kids" don't get caught, as noted many, many, many, many, many, many many times on this and other similar threads.

That's one of the major problems with the phony-holier-than-Thou-hypocrites-with bad-kids; they LITERALLY do not, and WILL NEVER understand what's going on.

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