OK, here goes.

I find the policy flawed in that it mandates punishment that can be diproportionate to the crime.

I am a parent of 2 kids who went through FCPS and neither of them ever got in trouble for anything.





MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> not mephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One of three things is true here. You either
> work
> > for FCPS, which is why you adamantly stand by
> the
> > flawed policy. Or, you are a troll who likes to
> > argue on FFXU. Or, you're so stupid that you
> > actually believe your stance in this argument.
> >
> > I'm wrong. Actually, all three could be true.
>
> You think what you want. Here's some things that
> are actually true, though:
>
> 1. The only people arguing that the policy is
> flawed are the people who are fuck-ups or
> friends/family of fuck-ups. I don't see anyone on
> here saying, "My kid follows the school rules and
> has never gotten in trouble for using or buying
> drugs at school, but it's totally unfair how your
> drug-using kid was treated."
>
> 2. Nobody arguing that the policy is flawed is
> able to explain exactly how the policy is flawed.
> All they're saying is, "The policy is flawed, it's
> unfair, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot who
> works for FCPS."
>
> 3. Nobody disagrees with me is responding to
> anything I write in a manner that could possibly
> be mistaken as "intelligent" or "mature." I have
> made my position on the matter perfectly clear,
> and have used sources and statements to reinforce
> my opinions. The most I get in response is, "Yeah,
> well, you're a stupid homosexual."
>
> 4. Nobody has been able to explain how, if the
> policies and rules are so complicated and
> difficult to follow, 98% of kids attending school
> in this district manage to avoid getting expelled.

Parent of Former Students Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, here goes.
>
> I find the policy flawed in that it mandates
> punishment that can be diproportionate to the
> crime.

So what is an alternative that could be applied evenly and fairly to all students in the school district?

With individual hearings that address each case and dole out punishment uniquely, you run the risk of accusations and lawsuits from parents claiming favoritism and/or discrimination. Also, there would be a lot more time spent on this process, which means more money that taxpayers won't want to pay. So, that one's off the table.

You could go to a tiered system of punishment. For example, you could have detention for OTC medicine and tobacco, one week suspension for marijuana and prescription medication, two weeks for cocaine and hallucinogens, and three weeks for crack and heroine, with an expulsion policy for possessing a certain amount of drugs with intent to distribute. However, that would only communicate to fuck-ups and their dead-beat parents that there's no serious, lasting consequences for bringing a little bit of weed to school. I don't think anyone wants that.

So, what are the alternatives? Fixing a problem is a two-step process: identify the problem, then provide a solution.

> I am a parent of 2 kids who went through FCPS and
> neither of them ever got in trouble for anything.

Your credentials check out, I guess.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Nobody has a lick of common sense-there lies the problem.

A 13 year old girl who takes a pill for acne should not miss 7 weeks of school!!

Is it that complicated, guys?

A kid who scribbles on a desk should not be treated like Ted Bundy.

Punishment-yes. But it should fit the crime.

As far as repeat offenders, heavy duty remidiation and intervention.

Both Bradsher and Gibson said there were some repeat offenders who had up to 60 disciplinary actions. Do I believe that number? no-but they used it.

not rocket science Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Punishment-yes. But it should fit the crime.

So you admit what this student did was a crime. There were no formal charges and no jail imposed from what I am reading.

And if you want to give us a taste of "a lick of sense" then at least articulate what the offense was. It wasn't for taking an acne pill, it was for bringing a controlled substance into a public school.

----------------------------------------

"She looks pretty good for 12, admit it." - WingNut, 04/24/2012

"I'm racist too. So what?" - Ellipsis 9/16/2011

"If you only knew who I was, and what I was working to do you would...have the decency to tell me I hated my nation and the way of life. I may not agree with...the government...I hate the "government"......" - Firrat 9/1/10

"there seems to be a queer...why? To try and further demean a defeated... dumb Tea party... I think we need more... far left folks on a regular basis - Louis Farakhan, Jesse Jackson...Al Sharpton" - Registered Voter, 8/19/2011

"If your computer is running slow, or you have any other problems, email me at with the problem and i am willing to fix it, for a price of course" - Taylor, spamming FFU on 04/12/2006. "N****rs as slaves again? I think so..." - Taylor, 09/20/2009




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 02:16PM by justsayin.

not rocket science Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nobody has a lick of common sense-there lies the
> problem.
>
> A 13 year old girl who takes a pill for acne
> should not miss 7 weeks of school!!
>
> Is it that complicated, guys?

The issue is not that she took an acne pill. The issue is that she had prescription medication in her locker that was not registered with the nurse. The school staff is not composed of doctors and pharmacists; a kid could very easily put something like percoset or vicodin in a bottle with a label that indicates it's for diarrhea.

What they saw was a student with a bottle of prescription medication that she was keeping from the attention of school personnel. Again, these policies exist for a reason. Unless parents are willing to pony up some cash for drug testing and chemical analysis of pills that students are keeping in their lockers, there's no way to really know which student has an acne problem and which student is abusing painkillers.

> A kid who scribbles on a desk should not be
> treated like Ted Bundy.
>
> Punishment-yes. But it should fit the crime.

I haven't seen any articles about little Johnny getting suspended for scribbling on a desk. All the big-ticket stories have involved drugs.

> As far as repeat offenders, heavy duty remidiation
> and intervention.

Who'd responsible for that? Who would pay for it?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Case law states that the process must be fundamentally fair. You be the judge.

When we treat a 6 year old the same way we treat an 18 year old it is not fundamentally fair.

When we punish a kid with an antibiotic the say way for a kid with heroin it is not fundamentally fair.

When the hearing office colludes with a principal to get their conviction the child is not being given access to an unbiased arbitrator as required by law.

When a principal tears up a statement of a kid and demands they rewrite it telling the kid what to write this is a due process violation.

The system is so broken in so many ways. To suggest it is fine is just plain stupidity.

you all are morons Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Case law states that the process must be
> fundamentally fair. You be the judge.


What case law? This topic has nothing to do with law, these are regulations and policies. Please quote the cases you are referring to, otherwise you are quite the moron.

----------------------------------------

"She looks pretty good for 12, admit it." - WingNut, 04/24/2012

"I'm racist too. So what?" - Ellipsis 9/16/2011

"If you only knew who I was, and what I was working to do you would...have the decency to tell me I hated my nation and the way of life. I may not agree with...the government...I hate the "government"......" - Firrat 9/1/10

"there seems to be a queer...why? To try and further demean a defeated... dumb Tea party... I think we need more... far left folks on a regular basis - Louis Farakhan, Jesse Jackson...Al Sharpton" - Registered Voter, 8/19/2011

"If your computer is running slow, or you have any other problems, email me at with the problem and i am willing to fix it, for a price of course" - Taylor, spamming FFU on 04/12/2006. "N****rs as slaves again? I think so..." - Taylor, 09/20/2009

you all are morons Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Case law states that the process must be
> fundamentally fair. You be the judge.
>
> When we treat a 6 year old the same way we treat
> an 18 year old it is not fundamentally fair.
>
> When we punish a kid with an antibiotic the say
> way for a kid with heroin it is not fundamentally
> fair.
>
> When the hearing office colludes with a principal
> to get their conviction the child is not being
> given access to an unbiased arbitrator as required
> by law.
>
> When a principal tears up a statement of a kid and
> demands they rewrite it telling the kid what to
> write this is a due process violation.
>
> The system is so broken in so many ways. To
> suggest it is fine is just plain stupidity.

this is an adminstrative process not a criminal one. Children don't have any rights. Best they can hope for is rough justice. Reminds me alot of the property tax appeals process. Both are kangaroo courts you ask me.

> Children don't have any rights. Best they can
> hope for is rough justice.


School attendence is considered a property right and children, in fact do have constitutional protections.

Read up on suspension case law pal.

wrong again Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Children don't have any rights. Best they can
> > hope for is rough justice.
>
>
> School attendence is considered a property right
> and children, in fact do have constitutional
> protections.
>
> Read up on suspension case law pal.

Already covered this. Children don't have the same constitutional rights as adults, period.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Shut up you ignorant blowhard, I have already humiliated your fatuous and false claim that students have no constitutionakl rights. I shoved TYinker v Des Moines and Goss V Lopez right down your ugly imsantrhropic throat. Now here's this:

§ 18.2-361. Crimes against nature; penalty.

A. If any person carnally knows in any manner any brute animal, or carnally knows any male or female person by the anus or by or with the mouth, or voluntarily submits to such carnal knowledge, he or she shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony, except as provided in subsection B.

Now, you need to turn yourself in, confess, and demand that the authorities prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law, or concede that that you are a sad, pathetic, miserable, loney misfit who has never enjoyed oral sex. Either way, you lose big. Really big. You grotesque fraud.

Ouch! Mr. Mephisto never had a blow job, because it is unlawful in Virginia, and rules are rule; only fuck-ups break them. Checkmate.

Ouch! Mr. Mephisto never had a blow job, because it is unlawful in Virginia, and rules are rules; only fuck-ups break them. Checkmate.

lol@ Mephisto! Live by the sword, die by the sword, bub. Now go turn yourself in for breaking the law, you hopeless fuck-up.

I wonder what per centage of Virginians violate this law. Maybe, 90-05% ? Phuk-ups.

Plus look man, those goddamn slaves who attempted to escape knew, I mean they knew perfectly well that their attempts, if unsuccesful, would result in brutal whippings. But it was perfectly legal, and like I said, they knew the consequences in advance. So I wish they would stop whining about it. They were just a bunch of fuck-ups who broke the rules.

Terrance wrote the following:

"Plus look man, those goddamn slaves who attempted to escape knew, I mean they knew perfectly well that their attempts, if unsuccesful, would result in brutal whippings. But it was perfectly legal, and like I said, they knew the consequences in advance. So I wish they would stop whining about it. They were just a bunch of fuck-ups who broke the rules."

Awesome. A plus 1 simply doesn't do it justice.

Tiny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shut up you ignorant blowhard, I have already
> humiliated your fatuous and false claim that
> students have no constitutionakl rights. I shoved
> TYinker v Des Moines and Goss V Lopez right down
> your ugly imsantrhropic throat. Now here's this:

Like I said... We already covered this. Children don't have the same constitutional rights as adults, period.

Maybe if you spent more time reading the posts and less time reading your thesaurus, you would have gotten that the first time around.

> § 18.2-361. Crimes against nature; penalty.
>
> A. If any person carnally knows in any manner any
> brute animal, or carnally knows any male or female
> person by the anus or by or with the mouth, or
> voluntarily submits to such carnal knowledge, he
> or she shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony, except
> as provided in subsection B.
>
> Now, you need to turn yourself in, confess, and
> demand that the authorities prosecute you to the
> fullest extent of the law, or concede that that
> you are a sad, pathetic, miserable, loney misfit
> who has never enjoyed oral sex. Either way, you
> lose big. Really big. You grotesque fraud.

And again, your whole argument boils down to "Tinker vs. Des Moines! I win! You lose!" Your pocket full of dreams doesn't change the fact that children don't have the same constitutional rights as adults, especially where public school is concerned.

Nice job high-fiving yourself, though. For a nanosecond there, I almost thought "Tiny," "Blarny," and "Jibbler" were three different people.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Got your hypocrisy shoved ribght down your ugly throat again, huh loser? lol@ MrMephisto!! Got nowhere to hide, huh jackass?

What's it gonna be, Mr Mephisto? You gonna turn yourself in, confess, and demand to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law? Huh fuck-up? You ever break that Virginia law? Huh fuck-up?

Poor, poor Mr. Mephisto. Wrong on the constitutional implications, and an utterly incorrible scofflaw reprobate phuk-up who stubbornly refuses to comply with Virginia law § 18.2-361.

MR Mephisto, STOP COMMITING CRIMES AGAINST NATURE!!!! You fuck-up.

Mephister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Got nowhere to hide, huh jackass?

Yes. Try as I might, I simply can't escape the juggernaut of "TINKER VS. DES MOINES! I WIN, I WIN! I SHOVED IT DOWN YOUR THROAT! I WIN!"

Truly, I'm grasping at straws.

Poole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's it gonna be, Mr Mephisto? You gonna turn
> yourself in, confess, and demand to be prosecuted
> to the fullest extent of the law? Huh fuck-up? You
> ever break that Virginia law? Huh fuck-up?

If I was going to do that, I'd have done it while I was a kid in a Fairfax County Public School. I wouldn't have had any constitutional rights, and I wouldn't have been punished as harshly as an adult.

You don't have any rights until you turn 18, son. Just deal with it.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

STOP COMMITING CRIMES AGAINST NATURE, YOU INCORRIGIBLE FUCK-UP!

lol@Mephisto. STOP BREAKING THE LAW YOU PHUK UP!!

Ok. Doesn't change the fact that you don't have constitutional rights like adults do.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

STOP PERPTRATING CRIMES AGAINST NATURE!!! You scofflaw fuck-up.

Voting is great, don't you agree? Who did you vote for in the last electi...

Oh, that's right. Under 18, no constitutional rights. Sorry.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Turn yourself in for the thousands of crimes against nature you have committed!! Why do you insist on breaking the law, you fuck -up

Oh yea I support suspending and transferring a kid cause they misplaced their antibiotics. 'My kid would never do that...'

What a joke when adults ruin kids lives because, well, because they are too stupid or passive to use their judgement.

Best of all you lazy parents that dont think it will happen to your kids - we should really fuck your kids over. Honestly, it seems as if all the adults are gone and we are all acting like children to the State...

http://www.fcps.edu/news/discipline/hearingsofficereport.pdf

Enjoy!

Here are some real hard core cases against kids - glad they were expelled

Possession-Look-a-Like, 9 cases
Possession-Other, 32 cases

I am still waiting for someone to come up with the a good reason why parents are not kicking these kids ass's before they get to school doing these dump stunts. Reality is out there and the parents must be lighting up with the kids if they think any of these things were ok to do in school off school grounds.

How come no one has looked at the sucide rate in fairfax county and blamed that on the school board.

Sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Bigdog - Did your parent's strip search you every time you entered or left your house? Did they follow you areound 100% of the time to make sure you behaved?

Kids today have more "parenting" - more helicopter parents and hover mothers - than ever before in history, and they are even more screwed up than usual.

Schools are way harsher and far more on top of the kids than they were in the past too.

Not sure what the solution is, but halting a kid's education due to a single error in judgement is a HUGE step and only worthy of consideration in felony cases, IMHO.

And after Kicking them out of school - where do you think they go then?

Looking at the Hearing Board's annual report makes me think being a Black Male is at least 2 strikes against you too....

BeenThere Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bigdog - Did your parent's strip search you every
> time you entered or left your house? Did they
> follow you areound 100% of the time to make sure
> you behaved?

I never got suspension, explusion, or even detention the entire time I was in elementary and high school. My parents were more concerned with being my parents than my friend, and blamed ME for any of my fuck-ups. Consequently, they didn't need to "strip search" me or follow me around. All they had to do was make it abundantly clear what they expected of me, and what the consequences would be if I fucked up.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Lol. This from a scofflaw degenerate who routinely commits crimes whimsy nature. In spite of knowing the consequences. Blowhard fraud.

I must agree. Anyone who holds themselves out as an example has a very demanding role, with no room for error. So if indeed, he is casually ignoring Virginia's law against oral sex, he is nothing more than an egregious hypocrite.

And an incredible fuk up.

Looper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lol. This from a scofflaw degenerate who routinely
> commits crimes whimsy nature. In spite of knowing
> the consequences. Blowhard fraud.

Autocorrect fail.

Let me guess... You're in the bus on your way home, right?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

That the fuck up perv who refuses to obey Virginia law talking?

I'm really sorry that I'm smarter than you. Please stop saying hurtful things now. They... they're really getting to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Smarter?! My poor pathetic inferior, you are a scarcely literate troglodytic reprobate.

Runter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Smarter?! My poor pathetic inferior, you are a
> scarcely literate troglodytic reprobate.

I know the truth hurts, but you'll get over it when you become an adult and have rights.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Lol. So when a minor is accused of a crime, he or she doesn't have a constitutional sixth amendment right to defense counsel? Get the Phuk outta here, you are truly to stupid to discuss adult matters.

A student may have a right to defense, but they don't have ALL the rights an adult has.

The rights of free speech, free press, free association, and freedom from unwarranted search and seizure are points of contention between school administrators and students, and have been for decades.

There are several reasons why violations of student rights are upheld by the courts. One of the most basic reasons is known as in loco parentis. This Latin phrase basically means that while a student is in the custody of a school, the school can and often should act as a parent. In this duty of the school, many decisions can be made that are outside the normal governmental purview. The other basic reason for violation of student rights has to do with the goal of school — to educate. If an act of a student can interfere with the educational process, that act may, in many cases, be suppressed.

(taken from an article on http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_stud.html)

Shadow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A student may have a right to defense, but they
> don't have ALL the rights an adult has.
>
> The rights of free speech, free press, free
> association, and freedom from unwarranted search
> and seizure are points of contention between
> school administrators and students, and have been
> for decades.
>
> There are several reasons why violations of
> student rights are upheld by the courts. One of
> the most basic reasons is known as in loco
> parentis. This Latin phrase basically means that
> while a student is in the custody of a school, the
> school can and often should act as a parent. In
> this duty of the school, many decisions can be
> made that are outside the normal governmental
> purview. The other basic reason for violation of
> student rights has to do with the goal of school
> — to educate. If an act of a student can
> interfere with the educational process, that act
> may, in many cases, be suppressed.
>
> (taken from an article on
> http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_stud.html)

I already mentioned that, but the kid doesn't care.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

I already shoved the case law down the ignorant delinquent's throat, (Tinker, Goss etc.) but the boy just won't listen. The little fella thinks he has pluck, but he only demonstrates typical untutorted recklessness.

Farnsnarkle is right. Student have rights but not all the rights as an adult.

The school system follows the disciplinary consequences set by the school board.
Don't like them? Vote them out!

The school board follows the code of Virginia. DOn;t like our laws? Run for office, ask candidates on their stance regarding the sissues...AND VOTE!!



Read Wofford v. Evans

Here is the ink: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-4th-circuit/1059723.html

Not all constitutional rights and protections apply to students at the schoolhouse.

see New Jersey v. T.L.O.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110322/lf_nm_life/us_peanut_allergy

Fairfax county has a zero-tolerance policy because parents are as fucking stupid as they are crazy.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Stupid phukking moron.

Link for show today on FCPS discipline (88.5 Kojo Namdi):

http://thekojonnamdishow.org/shows/2011-03-23/kojo-your-community-discipline-fairfax-county-schools

I am a student at a shitty highschool. I got suspended yesterday foe pushing a teacher off of me when she poured shit on my lap, on purpose. The school dealt with it wrong and now I am facing a possible expulsion. I am in no way violent, but I always stand up and defend myself. The previous times I have been in trouble have been stupid and my administrator is a biased bitch:
2 day suspension : Walking to McDonalds durring collaboration (Non-Achedemic time)
1 day suspension : Wearing a hat
1 day suspension : Drinking a RedBull
Saturday school : Late to class
Detention: Bathroom with out a pass

I am appalled by how they deal with students and how they won't take my word because of my offenses with punishments that are blown out of proportion.

You tell me:
If you had no support by your family, your school is against you, and your defending yourself with the rules set inplace for students is that insubordination or is it what I had to do to protect myself.
Fuck FCPS.

drinking a red bull???

o_0

wow!! What school do you go to?

If the teach poured shit in yr lap, do you have witnesses to this?

If not, you are going to learn a nasty lesson in bullshit

if you do, I'd file a police report

Yeah the whole cafeteria saw this shit, and the admin wont do shit shes a BITCH.
Oakton Highschool, home of bullshit.

You are definitely a victim....NOT, grow up and try following a few easy rules. It only gets harder from here.

Chin up kid...the filthy lying FCPS bastards have a day of reckoning coming.

fcps_smd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah the whole cafeteria saw this shit, and the
> admin wont do shit shes a BITCH.
> Oakton Highschool, home of bullshit.

could you elaborate on that last bit? Kid slated to go there and I'd like the true skinny good and bad. Only other possibilities seem Paul VI or maybe Flint Hill.

I have a theory that FCPS practices these zero tolerance/harsh discipline rules so peoplw will just pack off to private school or wherever, this reducing the overpopulation in the school....

I have a theory that FCPS practices these zero tolerance/harsh discipline rules so uppity kids with an unwarranted sense of entitlement will be more prepared for the real world.

Get caught with drugs in college? Expelled.

Get caught with drugs at your job? Fired.

fcps_smd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a student at a shitty highschool. I got
> suspended yesterday foe pushing a teacher off of
> me when she poured shit on my lap, on purpose. The
> school dealt with it wrong and now I am facing a
> possible expulsion. I am in no way violent, but I
> always stand up and defend myself. The previous
> times I have been in trouble have been stupid and
> my administrator is a biased bitch:
> 2 day suspension : Walking to McDonalds durring
> collaboration (Non-Achedemic time)
> 1 day suspension : Wearing a hat
> 1 day suspension : Drinking a RedBull
> Saturday school : Late to class
> Detention: Bathroom with out a pass
>
> I am appalled by how they deal with students and
> how they won't take my word because of my offenses
> with punishments that are blown out of proportion.
>
>
> You tell me:
> If you had no support by your family, your school
> is against you, and your defending yourself with
> the rules set inplace for students is that
> insubordination or is it what I had to do to
> protect myself.
> Fuck FCPS.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that there is a lot more to this story.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Parents and Guardians:

On Friday, during A and B lunches, our students engaged in a food fight.

Each of our lunches has approximately 500 students in the cafeteria at any one time. When the food fight broke out, many students ran to join in, but many others ran for the exits. Students were knocked over and, in one case, hit by a milk carton. Hundreds of students were hit with milk or food. One teacher was injured as well.

Our goal is to have a safe and secure environment. We seek to be proactive and establish proper routines of good behavior and we cannot have such displays where students can easily be injured.

We have identified only a few of the students who threw the food and drink and they will be disciplined for their actions. Hundreds of our students were involved either directly or in the aftermath.

As this was almost a school wide event, I have decided to cancel our Spring Pep Rally. I truly regret having to take this action but believe it is the proper course for this type of behavior. I have planned a meeting with our SGA to discuss the matter with them.
Thank you for your support,

Abe E. Jeffers, Principal
Robert E. Lee High School
6540 Franconia Rd.
Springfield, VA 22150
703 924-8300
703 924-8397 fax

appropriate punishment?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Parents and Guardians:
>
> On Friday, during A and B lunches, our students engaged in a food fight.<
>
> Each of our lunches has approximately 500 students in the cafeteria at any one time. When the food fight broke out, many students ran to join in, but many others ran for the exits. Students were knocked over and, in one case, hit by a milk carton. Hundreds of students were hit with milk or food. One teacher was injured as well.<
>
> Our goal is to have a safe and secure environment. We seek to be proactive and establish proper routines of good behavior and we cannot have such displays where students can easily be injured.<
>
> We have identified only a few of the students who threw the food and drink and they will be disciplined for their actions. Hundreds of our students were involved either directly or in the aftermath.<
>
> As this was almost a school wide event, I have decided to cancel our Spring Pep Rally. I truly regret having to take this action but believe it is the proper course for this type of behavior. I have planned a meeting with our SGA to discuss the matter with them.<
> Thank you for your support,
>
> Abe E. Jeffers, Principal
> Robert E. Lee High School
> 6540 Franconia Rd.
> Springfield, VA 22150
> 703 924-8300
> 703 924-8397 fax<


Can an entire FCPS high school be expelled and transferred to another high school?

Goodness.....2000 students transferring to another school. How comical would that be?

We better hire more hearing officers and buy some buses.

Cha ching!

We currently spend over $800k on transporting these "dangerous" students from school A to school B. We better triple the budget!

What school will provide sanctuary for these food fight criminals?

Oh no, not the Spring Pep Rally!

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

I would take a food fight anyday campared to a pep rally.

Food fights are fun!

I threw a jelly donoughnut and it splattered on a teacher. We were howling!!

Why do we need strict rules for these kids?

Jelly doughnut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I threw a jelly donoughnut and it splattered on a
> teacher. We were howling!!

Exhibit A.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Jeffers is a dumb ass! The reason we had the food fight was so the old coot would cancel the pep rally! We hate those stupid things! Oh, and I threw a buttered roll. Scored a bulls eye!

Gasp! A jelly donut! Oh the humanity!

Oh I can't wait till the last day of school. Food fight!

Was that Kevin Bacon in the utube video?

From the Post:

Fairfax leaning toward recording disciplinary hearings for students
By Donna St. George, Monday, March 28,12:18 AM

A growing number of Fairfax school officials support the idea of creating audio recordings of student disciplinary proceedings as the district seeks to respond to parent complaints about fairness and tone in the hearing room.


Here's an idea - how about firing the sadistic a-holes that have run the FCPS star chamber for the last few years. They are the ones that have made this a necessity. How about some accountability, Jack?

The FCPS should start treating kids like kids.

You should see the BS that starts in elementary school.

Jack must go!

How about Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The FCPS should start treating kids like kids.
>
> You should see the BS that starts in elementary
> school.
>
> Jack must go!


I've seen it. They are run like prisons. They suck the life out of kids - especially boys. I think this is the teacher and administrators revenge for NCLB and no pay raises - I think they are intentionally screwing with the kids to get even with the parents.

6 degrees Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was that Kevin Bacon in the utube video?


yep, in his screen debut

If you havent seen Animal House, you really REALLY need to

I applaud the efforts of Fairfax Zero Tolerance. These problems are larger than a piece-meal adjustment of discipline policy. They are fundamental and start with the title of the document meant to control every micro behavior: “The Responsibilities and Rights”. This is not a typo or a misprint, it is a transparent glance into the psyche of FCPS. When I arrived here in 1996 I came from a position as the CEO of a progressive think tank on education, the Center for Human Development, funded by the Department of Education. In my ignorance of this system I expected a welcoming system that nurtured students and advocated for their needs. Over the past 14 years, in private practice and as the parent of FCPS students, I have heard one horror story after another, of ruined lives as a result of this system’s view that they are the steward of the physical structure first, the advocate for administration and teachers second, and at odds with the real needs of students and their parents, who they see as adversaries. Lives are ruined over nothing and gossip. There is no legitimate and fair process-decisions are “pre-made” for hearings, by the systems stakeholders. Parents are first in denial (after all they have been students too and have a residual belief that compliance will result in problem solving), are ashamed and are paralyzed, in these situations. People, whose children have done nothing but be honest, have to secure legal representation, mortgage and lose their houses, and move-in complete shame. It is obscene.

The lense needs adjustment to reflect the absolute mandate for FCPS, to reflect real best practices-not the result of a summer workshop. The research on prevention in education is clear-the establishment of safety and emotional trust is primary. (think Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs) It is a starting place for this system. Students and parents should feel welcome and emotionally safe. This will enhance learning, and yes, even test scores. The starting place is agreement on the mission of the system: to serve the needs of the student- the consumer, not a place of desks and a jobsite for administrators. If the system were really client-centered, not just on paper, if there was a real belief that are students should be supported, as human beings, then change would take place. You can’t have responsibilities without first putting rights in place. A few relatively minor adjustments to policy will not start to cure these fundamental problems. As long as students need to be coached “not to say anything” (which I advise my clients to do), the system is nothing more than a corrections facility without constitutional protection.

my thoughts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The FCPS should start treating kids like kids.
> >
> > You should see the BS that starts in elementary
> > school.
> >
> > Jack must go!
>
>
> I've seen it. They are run like prisons. They
> suck the life out of kids - especially boys. I
> think this is the teacher and administrators
> revenge for NCLB and no pay raises - I think they
> are intentionally screwing with the kids to get
> even with the parents.


ROFLMAO@you

especially the "They are run like prisons. They suck the life out of kids - especially boys" quote

Let me guess, you think the Lamb Center is evil too, right?

logicaldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [A lot of...nothing]

Bad kids should be corrected, and if that is not possible, removed from interaction with non-bad kids.

Pretty simple policy, if you ask me, and one that actually works.

For the non-bad kids.

School is for schooling and, indeed, for social interaction (quite likely the major learning experience IN school is social, not book-learning). Controlling that social interaction thus becomes a major necessary effort of the school system.

Removing BAD social interaction in the schools unfortunately follows with that.

I have no problem with removing the one-percenters who really don't get corrected.

Because I'm in favor of the vast majority.

Parental Opinion wrote:

logicaldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [A lot of...nothing]

Bad kids should be corrected, and if that is not possible, removed from interaction with non-bad kids.

Pretty simple policy, if you ask me, and one that actually works.

For the non-bad kids.

School is for schooling and, indeed, for social interaction (quite likely the major learning experience IN school is social, not book-learning). Controlling that social interaction thus becomes a major necessary effort of the school system.

Removing BAD social interaction in the schools unfortunately follows with that.

I have no problem with removing the one-percenters who really don't get corrected.

Because I'm in favor of the vast majority.



I love the way you characterize kids as "BAD" and "NON-BAD". This is the problem. When you start categorizing kids as "BAD" and "NON-BAD" instead of seeing them as "KIDS", you have created a monster. A kid can do bad things, but this does not mean the kid is "BAD". We might be rich here in Fairfax County, but who is so rich that they can throw people away by labeling them "BAD" when they are kids? Zero tolerance is the theory we hold up as our justification for handing out ridiculous punishments to "KIDS". Yes, lives have been ruined and people like "Parental Opinion" don't care and use the excuse that they are "in favor of the vast majority".

I think the "vast majority" are speaking out right now and they don't like the way things are being done. Thankfully, the system has heard from them and hopefully will soon be doing something about it. We can't afford to throw our "KIDS" away. We must help them. Yes, some of these "KIDS" need help---but how does the system as it is now help them? Why doesn't FCPS keep statistics on the outcomes of their "actions"? Are those "actions" meant to help the kid who needs help, to punish that kid and his family, to keep that kid away from the "NON-BAD" kids or ??? What is the purpose and how does it serve the kids and their families? That is what needs to be addressed.

Riiiiight.....the situation here is a bunch of toddlers walking around getting baked.

16 year olds make stupid decisions but so do 40 year olds. And when those decisions endanger and infringe upon the rights of others, those "kids" Need to be removed. Transfer to another high school is a second chance, and if you can't see that, then I think the real problem is you really don't think what the law and science says about marijuana is true.

Which is certainly your right. But let's not pretend this is about the "kids"

"16 year olds make stupid decisions but so do 40 year olds."

I agree and it's good to see the 40 year olds making some revisions.

I think the real problem is you really don't think what the law and science says about marijuana is true."





What the law and science say about humans under age 18 is relevant. Someone under age 18 should have their parents informed when something happens at school. Someone under 18 is not the same as someone who is 40. I get that.

Where is the common sense in all of this?

Of course, we don't want "bad eggs" corrupting the good ones--but is a kid really a "bad egg" if he/she makes one mistake?

One reason our court system has a juvenile system is because most realize that kids under 18 sometimes do very stupid things that do not reflect on their character. They are supposed to get HELP to change their ways.

As far as expulsion, I think there may be cases where it is appropriate--for example, the senior class President who is popping drugs in the yearbook room. A kid like this is a leader who probably does not need to stay at his school. It would be the class joke and he should be held to a higher standard as a leader. I think there is a difference between a senior and a freshman or sophomore-especially one who has influence over others.

However, the Stuban case cried out for an exception. This is where the common sense comes in.

The girl at Oakton who had birth control pills probably was just crying out for attention. She was pretty stupid--but expulsion? Don't think that would be appropriate--neither the girl with acne medicine at Carson. These girls may have realized they were breaking the rules--but EXPULSION? really? and what's with keeping these kids out of school for weeks and weeks.

Kathy Smith has editorials in the Centreview and Fairfax Times. It sure is interesting how FCPS School board is now "listening" to the community. Especially, since Kathy, et. al were not listening when Tina Hone tried to get something done. (See Oct. minutes of SB meeting.)

^ the Post article on the adjudication process for the acne girl made the process seem amateurish at best, and it certainly embarrassed those officials who took part and are responsible for it, We just need some sunshine in on some of the county's decision making and then we see results. Not so much unlike, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria etc. All these deposts are gonna fall unless they start listening to the people.

gurgle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^ the Post article on the adjudication process for
> the acne girl made the process seem amateurish at
> best, and it certainly embarrassed those officials
> who took part and are responsible for it, We just
> need some sunshine in on some of the county's
> decision making and then we see results. Not so
> much unlike, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria etc. All
> these deposts are gonna fall unless they start
> listening to the people.

that should been "despots."

A quick read of the postings here strongly suggests that those arguing in favor of Zero Tolerance policies do not actually understand what they are supporting. For example, "Parental Opinion" wrote:

"Bad kids should be corrected, and if that is not possible, removed from interaction with non-bad kids"

and this is

"Because I'm in favor of the vast majority"

Certainly not a very nuanced perspective, and one that does not in fact describe zero tolerance. Zero tolerance as practiced in FCPS is based on a failed principle in community policing ("Broken Windows") famously championed by Rudy Giuliani. The core concept is aggressive enforcement of the rules regardless of the circumstances. Any reasonable person would agree that there is a wide chasm between the "badness" of the student who brings acne medicine to school and a drug dealer masquerading as a student. Yet, under the policy of zero tolerance, both can and will receive the same punishment.

Citing a personal experience, one of my kids was suspended twice in elementary school for school yard tussles -- once in 4th and once in 5th grade. In the first instance, my kid was attacked by all accounts and pushed back only in self-defense. Unfortunately, fighting is fighting in the SR&R so both he and the other student were suspended. In the second instance, I think it was more "mutual" and some sort of punishment for both kids was warranted, but hardly a 3 day suspension. In both cases, the Asst. Principal explained that his hands were tied, and he had to follow the "guidelines". THAT is zero tolerance, and that is the policy some people are defending here, under the misguided notion that it means being tough on troublemakers. It doesn't. It means that proscribed behavior will be treated the same, regardless of the circumstances.

My personal opinion, based on a reading of the SR&R, is that FCPS administrators do have latitude in disciplinary matters, but typically fail to use it. Why? Fear. Not fear of the "bad" kids, but of the "helicopter" parents. Those noisy apparitions that hover over their children and do anything to protect and smooth their way in life. Schools are no different in their social dynamics than any other institution in which large numbers of people are placed. They have friendships, rivalries, criminal behavior, altruistic acts, disputes, and pecking orders; all fueled by the natural impetuousness of an immature brain. They can be scary. Helicopter parents, rather than teaching their children how to cope with the environment, bring political and legal pressure to bear on the schools to create an all but impossible "safe and secure" place. Administrators react by putting zero tolerance policies in place and then claim that they are maintaining order. Events suggest otherwise.

Let me head off the argument that I'm somehow indifferent to or even advocating for "the blackboard jungle". I teach, and my students are old enough to legally buy guns. Schools, all of our institutions, should be made as safe as possible. But this is not happening or going to happen with the pretense of zero tolerance. Frankly, this policy is not about being hard but just on those who "break the rules"; it's about keeping the words "school", "system" and "liability" out of the same sentence.

TheProfessor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [A book]

Nonsense.

"Zero Tolerance" is an inflamatory term used by a bunch of losers to describe a well-documented, multi-tiered correction process for bad kids to protect good kids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance

The term "zero tolerance" has a pretty long history. It has been well-documented (not so sure about "multi-tiered"?). See link above.

The problem is black and white thinking- you see "good and bad kids", well let me tell you, without a doubt, your "good kid" quickly becomes their "bad kid" when they are standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, or are out of favor with some subjective interpretation of the existing, poorly trained, administration. It doesn't take much to get an administrative credential, and once in the system, they ALL comply, it is a culture. And those of you who blindly support it just make it worse. I see it everyday-once your kids is entrapped you change your tune. You just don't care unless it is at your doorstep. My favorite FCPS parentism is: "Well, I didn't have a good education and it didn't kill me." Wow, what a high standard, glad you got your real estate dollars worth. WAKE UP.

community oriented policing (since I worked on the original research) is based on the concept that when you create an environment of trust prevention of crime takes place. (responsible citizens take pride in their community and work with the police because they have a relationship in place) If that were instituted in FCPS it would work.

logicaldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...your "good kid" quickly becomes their
> "bad kid"...

Lol! I giggle in your general direction.

This unsupported crap keeps on getting spewed by your ilk yet the VAST majority of students end up being consistent full-academic-lifetime non-bad kids.

How strange!

Please define "VAST majority". FCPS has a 10% dropout rate (and that's the reported rate, so you know the real rate is more than that). Another 15% are in the SpEd program. At least 15% are in ESL. 25% are on free or reduced lunch. Then you throw in kids who have "family issues" (going through divorce, illness, new stepparent, abuse, you name it and we've got it). I'm not saying that those kids are "BAD"---they are honestly pretty good. What I'm saying is that FCPS deals with a huge diverse population and much of that population can very easily slip into anger, misunderstandings or stress that leads to all kinds of things. Kids who are angry, misunderstood and frustrated will do all kinds of crazy things out of sheer frustration. You make it sound like this county is full of happy, upperclass kids who are wonderful (Lake Wobegon perhaps?).

Also please define what a "consistent full-academic-lifetime non-bad kid" is. A lot of the kids I know are a bit more complicated than that term suggests. The fact that humans are complicated is what cries out for rules that are not "one size fits all".

We live in a very complex place. You make it sound easy. I don't think you have gotten outside of your neighborhood much.

logicaldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem is black and white thinking- you see
> "good and bad kids", well let me tell you, without
> a doubt, your "good kid" quickly becomes their
> "bad kid" when they are standing in the wrong
> place at the wrong time, or are out of favor with
> some subjective interpretation of the existing,
> poorly trained, administration. It doesn't take
> much to get an administrative credential, and once
> in the system, they ALL comply, it is a culture.
> And those of you who blindly support it just make
> it worse. I see it everyday-once your kids is
> entrapped you change your tune. You just don't
> care unless it is at your doorstep. My favorite
> FCPS parentism is: "Well, I didn't have a good
> education and it didn't kill me." Wow, what a high
> standard, glad you got your real estate dollars
> worth. WAKE UP.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
most "good kids" dont get involved in, or get near "wrong places at wrong times"

normally, they are too busy living their lives, those "good kids"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Zero-Tolerance Policy in Fairfax County Public Schools
Posted by: look around and really "see" ()
Date: April 03, 2011 10:08AM

Please define "VAST majority". FCPS has a 10% dropout rate (and that's the reported rate, so you know the real rate is more than that). Another 15% are in the SpEd program. At least 15% are in ESL. 25% are on free or reduced lunch. Then you throw in kids who have "family issues" (going through divorce, illness, new stepparent, abuse, you name it and we've got it). I'm not saying that those kids are "BAD"---they are honestly pretty good. What I'm saying is that FCPS deals with a huge diverse population and much of that population can very easily slip into anger, misunderstandings or stress that leads to all kinds of things. Kids who are angry, misunderstood and frustrated will do all kinds of crazy things out of sheer frustration. You make it sound like this county is full of happy, upperclass kids who are wonderful (Lake Wobegon perhaps?).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, what sorta crack you smoking, bro? You missed that dropout rate by a whole decimal point LoLz

http://www.fcps.edu/about/stats.htm

which if you scroll down, says: The dropout rate for school year 2007-08 was 1.5 percent.

I was all like WTF when I saw you say "10 percent" and was like NO WAY! Glad I know how to use this nifty interweb thingee - you should learn it, yo :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Also please define what a "consistent full-academic-lifetime non-bad kid" is. A lot of the kids I know are a bit more complicated than that term suggests. The fact that humans are complicated is what cries out for rules that are not "one size fits all".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I think I can define it!! Actually, that SAME PAGE defines them pretty well:

• The new four-year Virginia on-time graduation rate for Fairfax County was 91.2 percent for 2008 high school graduates.
• 92.6 percent of high school graduates continue on to some form of postsecondary
• FCPS students in the class of 2008 had an average combined score of 1654. This far exceeds the average combined scores of 1522 in Virginia and 1511 in the nation.
• In 2007-08, 63.1 percent of graduates earned advanced diplomas.
• The number of FCPS students taking Advanced Placement exams rose from 10,313 in 2002 to 14,365 in 2008.

THESE are the "good kids", ok?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We live in a very complex place. You make it sound easy. I don't think you have gotten outside of your neighborhood much.
-----------------------------------------------
says the person who thinks there is a ten percent dropout rate in Fairfax County. Need to put down the pipe and get out more yrself, yo...................

You can't tell anything from what is posted on that site. If you are looking at who dropped out of 12th grade in 2007-08, yes, it was probably 1.5 percent.

Here's the deal---most kids do not drop out in 12th grade. They drop out in 9th, 10th, or 11th. You have to add those students in. The "drop out rate" is only as meaningful as what the definition of "drop out rate" is. You have to measure the total number of drop outs for any given grade as they go through all of high school if you really want to get a meaningful number.

Another thing---why do you think there are not statistics on the kids who go through the expulsion process? The public is asking for those stats and they can't seem to come up with them.

I am not smoking anything. You, on the other hand, are drinking the kool aid.


Even if Fairfax is so great, don't they have some duty to educate everyone (even the ones who don't have a 1664 SAT score?) Isn't that sort of a law?

Okay.

I just saw the 4 year graduation rate further down on your post. It is one of the bullets which reads:

The new four-year Virginia on-time graduation rate for Fairfax County was 91.2 percent for 2008 high school graduates.


So, that means the drop out rate for 2008 was 8.8%.

I was off by 1.2% for the class of 2008.

not what you think Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The new four-year Virginia on-time graduation rate
> for Fairfax County was 91.2 percent for 2008 high
> school graduates.
>
>
> So, that means the drop out rate for 2008 was
> 8.8%.

No, that means the non-graduation rate was 8.8%.

Parental Opinion Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> No, that means the non-graduation rate was 8.8%.


Most abject apologies. This SHOUDL read:

>>> No, that means the non-graduation rate and the not-on-time-graduation rate sum to 8.8%.

BTW - I'm still trying to figure out why the 1.5% dropout rate isn't exactly correct...

Does the dropout rate include those that quit during the summer? For example, a juniot that does not enroll for Senior year?

Parental Opinion wrote:

not what you think Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The new four-year Virginia on-time graduation rate
> for Fairfax County was 91.2 percent for 2008 high
> school graduates.
>
>
> So, that means the drop out rate for 2008 was
> 8.8%.

No, that means the non-graduation rate was 8.8%.


What is the difference between the "non graduation rate" and the "drop out rate"? Please enlighten me. That kool aid is getting pretty sweet.

The school board screwed up again by bowing down to the masses and changing the policy. 98% of the kids never had a problem and we bow to the the masses in the loud 2% "cause their kids would never do the things they were blamed for".

Mommy and Daddy need 2 get over it kick your brat in the ass and tell them that they are responsible for their actions. Their parents will stand beside them when they admit to screwing up but they need 2 cowboy up and accept the punishment for what they have done. I don't know why the meetings were not recorded in the past that should have been a given.


Don't start with kids killed them selves because of the school boards punishment. Their lives were screwed up before they stepped on the carpet at the tower of power on gatehouse road. their parents apparntly did not see the problem or that their kid was dumb enough to bring drugs to school. I'm sure that alot of the kids that we don't hear about that screwed up and got either moved out to another school or expelled had their PO on speed dial and regular run in with the police.

It was fine worked for 98% of students.

The dropout rate for school year 2007-08 was 1.5 percent.



The new four-year Virginia on-time graduation rate
> for Fairfax County was 91.2 percent for 2008 high
> school graduates.


Ask yourself how there can be this discrepancy. Why is there a 7.3% discrepancy between these two statements. If 1.5 percent drop out, why is the graduation rate 91.2%?

My "guess" is that the first statement is the "drop out rate" for the class of 2007-2008 for the senior year (I may be wrong, but this might make sense). The second statement is the so called "non graduation" rate for the whole 4 years that the class of 2008 was in high school. I would be very surprised if 7.3% of the senior class suddenly "dropped out" or could not graduate their senior year. This would be very unusual IMO. If someone wants to call it a "non graduation" rate instead of a "drop out" rate, that is their perogative. What we then need to know is how many graduate in 5 years or 6 years. The whole thing is not very easy to figure out from the data given on that web page. Why would the "drop out rate" be different from the "non graduation rate"? By a factor of over 4? That needs to be explained.

You need to think about this stuff and ask questions. It needs to be better expalined.