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rebar
rebar
---------------------
a gut guess is contractor took a short cut that is not safe for a rebar construction
my new guess is while the contractors took a shortcut, that the deeper cause is rebar
it will be on History Channel in a new episode of Engineering Disasters, I hope. i've always had a strong interest in watching shows that study on these things
it's an 12 LANE ROAD cross (3 are not paved).
(that's a wide span i think. bridges across 66 have center columns - but this obviously does not. i'm sure it's a "short span" for certain bridges. yet for the situation i see, rebar and way lifted and all: looks long to me)
this is a "typical bridge" (a design copying or similar to bridge mentioned far above about private company design that "finally worked)
note the ribs (iron/steal ibeams under. note also they could be substituted or faked with concrete to fool the eye. metal was the original greatly safe and successful design. actually it also failed at first: event the safest bridge known had issues at first). NOTE: because the steel ibeam would be encased in concrete - you cannot tell if it's there or "missing". the ribs appear to be something like "joists" commonly seen in housing.
THE COLUMNS ARE NOT CONCRETE. despite it's compression strength there are "sideway forces (both directions)" due to various environmental things that move bridge over time / temperature.
Concrete columns typically are ONLY STRONG ENOUGH TO HOLD THEIR OWN WEIGHT. careful planning of inner metal fabrication is done that is inside these "columns"
here one can see "the metal". green ibeams with a little rust make them easy to see.
so there was tension of the unsupported middle pulling at ends, and one side pulled off. that fits everything mentioned i think.
it's a question if the attaching of rebar to the mooring or "beefy land point end" of the bridge, if the tension was mediated for earth movement, and such
in general if allot of tension is placed on rebar: it will simply pull out of concrete. that happened in california's last big earthquake - so there's tons of engineering papers written on it.
in this case the rebar was apparently used to both "keep tension on concrete so it doesn't bow down" and also support the tension at the ends (moorings)
i don't see it, personally. the cables aren't thick enough and i can't see why it wouldn't rip out. BUT NOTE i can't see the "whole thing" of course, and that all is just a guess
(for pedestrians? are you f'ing with me?)
(not 40 yrs on these: it's reported as a first time design. and in general pedestrian overpasses over super highways just didn't exist 40 years ago (mostly, almost wholey))
https://www.vox.com/2018/3/15/17126064/fiu-pedestrian-bridge-collapse-what-we-know
think of it this way.
you have two 10' 1/2" pine planks and drill holes through their length, insert 1/8" bolts "tightened", and then put HUNDREDS of pounds in the middle, bouncing a little too. you know that's gonna come apart, i hope.
the situation i see above is NOT NEARLY as stable as the wood thing i just described: it has a second deck that is NOT self sufficient/suspended, and has concrete (which cannot bow even a few millimeters before fracturing)
https://www.tylin.com/en/about
(is OP right about fairfax connection? still no, this is an "internatuional group", very likely asian group located in (china) that is seeking building contracts in USA, if they are "in fairfax" - only incidentally - a way to leach off of non-loyal county governments who hire illegal work :)
highlights:
4.8 Earthquake Effects, Earthquake effects shall be considered in the design in accordance with Section 2.3 of the SDG.
4.9 Vehicular Collision Loads, Structures shall be designed according to SDG Section 2.6 and LRFD Section 3.6.5. (ha! no columns on 11 line superhighway had no center medium, no collision possible! cut&paste factor: %100)
https://facilities.fiu.edu/projects/BT_904/Request_for_Qualifications-Request_for_Proposals/e._FIU_Pedestrian_Bridge_Design_Criteria_2014_06_11_FINAL.pdf
Attachments:
you might think: well the lower deck wasn't steel because the upper (rain cover) is steel trussed (zig zags) to a metal top (concrete covered) to suspend the bridge, which sits on (pretty thin) moorings
I thought this then i did a double take: these also appear to be an "inexpensive" tangle of rebar and concrete
NTSB is investigating (the government investigating itself, imho)
what i don't like about this diagram (which NTSB is purporting was filed )
I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT THE ASIAN COMPANY WAS BUILDING. I THINK IT'S A DIFFERENT PLAN
* the design shown isn't innovative it's "the usual" - a copy of very old USA technology (not asian)
* we saw from videos and ground footage there are not "moorings" for such wires - the bridge WAS SMOOTH ON ALL SURFACES. where would wires be attached? my point: they wouldn't on a smooth surface. it's a cover-up !!
* a suspended bridge is not built without suspesion (the ground pillars and suspension is INSTALLED FIRST, and construct as you go methods attach new members to the suspension)
* the bridge was made without "iron infrastructure" it was just cheap concrete an rebar. a technique such as "putting the bridge in place and attaching what holds it up later" would not be an "available technique"
* a suspension bridge was not SHOWN in the sales brochure in the sales ad shown far above, and but the sales brochure DOES say iron structure is "necessary"
* due to "seedy government - you cannot say which plan WOULD HAVE BEEN FOLLOW - because they change plans (refile) at any time. obviously the plan with the iron frame being "necessary" had already been edited to "rebar is ok"
POINT: the nubs on the top deck were present - that doesn't mean the contractor ever intended to pay the money to install the "expensive part" of the bridge
in 2016 the above happened to an (apparently older) "condo" in fairfax
it is reported the soil "pushed up" and broke the bottom off the building
(you have to ask yourself, do a double take, WHAT IS HOLDING UP THE BRICK ABOVE? the brick is just a skin which is fastened onto the structure - the iron holds the structure - however one still has to wonder how many floors of brick above do not fall down! neat.)
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/03/6-mos-collapsed-condo-owners-homeless-options/
http://www.fauquiernow.com/index.php/fauquier_news/article/fauquier-bridge-collapses-as-ups-truck-attempts-to-cross-2017
the obvious policy on this bridge was: "it won't break while i'm on it, if I go quickly"
this "silver bridge" was believed to be extra durable because of it's "chain link design" (silver appearance was protective caoting), but fault was blamed at corrosion (or possible hiding of iron issues before assembly due to coating). if the bridge had rust or cracking: they couldn't see it, was the issue
http://failures.wikispaces.com/Silver%20Bridge%20%28Point%20Pleasant%29%20Collapse
"As it would later turn out, the advantages associated with using eyebar chains would be outweighed by the difficulty of inspecting and maintaining the bridge."
This collapse would eventually change the way that the United States inspected bridges and lead to the development of the National Bridge Inspection Standards (Delatte 2009, pp 80
company "involved" with FIU (claimed no failures in past) had had this in the past:
http://www.roanoke.com/news/virginia/company-behind-florida-bridge-that-collapsed-was-fined-by-virginia/article_51d06c93-f195-5a5a-93b4-8e53c3508aa8.html
we can see a "modern deck design", with a hollow eye below the riding/car deck, but we can't see inside the concrete to see if there is iron structure or (again, just rebar)
The June 2012 incident involved the South Norfolk Jordan Bridge over the Elizabeth River between Chesapeake and Portsmouth. It was being built by FIGG Bridge Engineers, based in Tallahassee, Fla.
"they modified a `girder` / ibeam without submitting it to an approval process"
-----------------------
however i see allot of iron in the assembly system, but not necessarily any in the bridge. the columns appear massive enough.
infact what i see is just: hollow concrete structure with rebar or bolts sticking out - inside the concrete is hidden - but i suspect there is nothing but rebar and maybe "tensioner bolts"
i would say it appears this is another "massive mis-estimation" of turning a rebar vertical column on it's side - expecting tension to cause the thing to hole weight. but i would say there are many powers of mis-estimation in hoping compression of concrete means a vertical column can bear weight when used horizontally
we can see here we hope they got steel ibar under their concrete. but moreso even if it is only rebar and concrete:
the spans between support wires are very much shorter
the FIU spanned 12 lanes at ~ 12' each, or 144'. the above supports at every few car lengths i would estimate (at such a short distance, the bend of concrete supported by rebar would be a totally different story - closer to the "garage floor with rebar under" case - noting again a garage floor is supported by soil, and many crack because soil moves)
but when you lengthen a floor so it is a column - things change - allot of things
The weight of the original reinforced concrete deck and its supporting stringers was 166,397 tons (150,952,000 kg). The weight of the new orthotropic steel plate deck, its two inches of epoxy asphalt surfacing
the original deck was retrofitted as part of an earthquake proofing initiative for all building and infrastructure (california-wide we can say)
despite their saying the "deck is reinforced concrete suppored every few car lengths", we can see there is significant steel trussing
my advice is "don't blink", and while you do that put your harness back on!
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
let's protest them
()
Date: March 15, 2018 03:55PM
Pedestrian bridge collapses in Florida resulting in numerous deaths.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
e4hbv
()
Date: March 15, 2018 03:59PM
very unfortunate
what makes you think ASCE made the design, or that cubans who couldn't speak english who built it actually FOLLOWED the plans? the graffiti on the bridge probably read (translated into english) "die gringo, bridge is not safe"
what makes you think ASCE made the design, or that cubans who couldn't speak english who built it actually FOLLOWED the plans? the graffiti on the bridge probably read (translated into english) "die gringo, bridge is not safe"
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
3twxf
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:08PM
one in fairfax fell as well some several years back
if you watched the History channel you'd know: pedestrian bridge designs are "kinda new" (do not have a long history nor reliable history). all bridges had a horrible history of collapse - it wasn't until a PRIVATE COMPANY (not gov.) spent huge sums of money designing an i-beam / concrete hybrid in a certain design they became "stable and reliable". the company charges for the rights to copy it's plans: but foriegn countries (even counties in USA) are stealing the building plans (same deal with chicago / ny skyscraper plans: foreigners ripped them off)
these pedestrian bridges are sometimes locally designed and made: though there are (big company alternatives) - which means they aren't only "somewhat new" but also PROBABLY NEVER TIME TESTED
it takes hell to get a (type of) bridge working - it is no "simple thing". why they were "confidant" with a somewhat minimal design i have no idea
if you watched the History channel you'd know: pedestrian bridge designs are "kinda new" (do not have a long history nor reliable history). all bridges had a horrible history of collapse - it wasn't until a PRIVATE COMPANY (not gov.) spent huge sums of money designing an i-beam / concrete hybrid in a certain design they became "stable and reliable". the company charges for the rights to copy it's plans: but foriegn countries (even counties in USA) are stealing the building plans (same deal with chicago / ny skyscraper plans: foreigners ripped them off)
these pedestrian bridges are sometimes locally designed and made: though there are (big company alternatives) - which means they aren't only "somewhat new" but also PROBABLY NEVER TIME TESTED
it takes hell to get a (type of) bridge working - it is no "simple thing". why they were "confidant" with a somewhat minimal design i have no idea
I only have to look at pics to see MAJOR design flaws.
It either had no i-beam frame or the frame was never welded by contractors to be continuous. The debris (helicopter view) appears to be %100 crumbled concrete so i'm thinking:
* they didn't use IRON (see the DC four story)
* they used re-bar but did NOT follow currently valid data (ie, from California or Ohio or who testing labs) for the proper use of rebar. this is what i attribute to not seeing any "large lengths of metal in the mess"
* rebar should never have been used
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
cfyk3
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:13PM
the best plan is to not rely on everything in the installation to be "correct" or to have the design engineer personally check the things (which itself can be in error)
for instance, your home's floor joists should be drilled (for wire crossings etc) in the middle and some distance from (ibeam or sill) seats. contractors and (worse, home owners) ignore it frequently. but the house still stands. the answer there is the designer didn't rely on that
for instance, your home's floor joists should be drilled (for wire crossings etc) in the middle and some distance from (ibeam or sill) seats. contractors and (worse, home owners) ignore it frequently. but the house still stands. the answer there is the designer didn't rely on that
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
4ecfy
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:14PM
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
wetbn
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:14PM
that's a really wide pedestrian bridge
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
vdghn
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:21PM
OH - THE BRIDGE WAS NOT YET COMPLETED - IT WAS BEING WORKED ON (AT THE TIME) IT FELL
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
vdghn wetbn 3twxf cfyk3
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:27PM
i was gonna ask if a truck hit a mooring. no point in asking. the contractor probably took a short cut (and there may have been wind)
75 deg and sunny, wind speeds were apparently 3-12 mpg
75 deg and sunny, wind speeds were apparently 3-12 mpg
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
vkhe9
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:28PM
rebar
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
vtjhp
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:30PM
rebar
---------------------
a gut guess is contractor took a short cut that is not safe for a rebar construction
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
dxkhb
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:42PM
i see a "large white bar" in one photo possibly - possible very large round rebar
this may have been the plan for "the main support", to support it by tension of a larger piece of rebar that (might have) run the whole length. but does tension for a bar so large follow rules of smaller bars. i very much doubt that "scales"
this may have been the plan for "the main support", to support it by tension of a larger piece of rebar that (might have) run the whole length. but does tension for a bar so large follow rules of smaller bars. i very much doubt that "scales"
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
dum3v
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:46PM
my new guess is while the contractors took a shortcut, that the deeper cause is rebar
it will be on History Channel in a new episode of Engineering Disasters, I hope. i've always had a strong interest in watching shows that study on these things
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
u9pje
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:49PM
my last gut feeling is if we ALL HEARD all the shortcuts or shortcomings contractors got themselves into while assembling bridges we'd all faint - yet in many cases they got away with it (no failure, no damage)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
puydj
()
Date: March 15, 2018 04:53PM
so i also saw allot of "crumbly concrete", something like it was not the highest quality runway quality concrete.
what i saw in a video is them lifting A LONG SECTION OF BRIDGE into place from the ground
if the concrete were not cured properly (takes a week or years depending), perhaps lifing such a wide section without support in the middle weakened it?
*
what i saw in a video is them lifting A LONG SECTION OF BRIDGE into place from the ground
if the concrete were not cured properly (takes a week or years depending), perhaps lifing such a wide section without support in the middle weakened it?
apparently engineers were onsite clapping when this LONG section set down, so it was not as if it missed the pilon / mooring and fell immediately. unsure how much earlier in construction that lift was done
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
FIU is a shit school,it’s ok
()
Date: March 15, 2018 05:35PM
This school sucks so it’s okay.
Illegals prob built this bridge.
This kinda shit is what fbi needs to concentrate on.
Fuck mueller and fuck Mc cabe.
Illegals prob built this bridge.
This kinda shit is what fbi needs to concentrate on.
Fuck mueller and fuck Mc cabe.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
hwwvw
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:01PM
it's an 12 LANE ROAD cross (3 are not paved).
(that's a wide span i think. bridges across 66 have center columns - but this obviously does not. i'm sure it's a "short span" for certain bridges. yet for the situation i see, rebar and way lifted and all: looks long to me)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
kvuuy
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:02PM
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
lkomn
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:02PM
Hopefully some libtards under that rubble.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
gcudx
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:02PM
As of 5 p.m., a minimum of eight vehicles were trapped under the rubble, Estopinan said. Some workers were on the bridge when it collapsed, but officials did not detail whether any of them were among the dead.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Focused on building the wall
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:04PM
An example of the need for the regulations that Trump rolled back so his buddies could line their pockets.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Civ Eng
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:06PM
No doubt a minority set-aside contract to afro-engineer that bridge.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
64t4m
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:10PM
a typical overpass on rt 66 in DMV area. there is a column support midway - this one has at least 4 columns
this is a "typical bridge" (a design copying or similar to bridge mentioned far above about private company design that "finally worked)
note the ribs (iron/steal ibeams under. note also they could be substituted or faked with concrete to fool the eye. metal was the original greatly safe and successful design. actually it also failed at first: event the safest bridge known had issues at first). NOTE: because the steel ibeam would be encased in concrete - you cannot tell if it's there or "missing". the ribs appear to be something like "joists" commonly seen in housing.
THE COLUMNS ARE NOT CONCRETE. despite it's compression strength there are "sideway forces (both directions)" due to various environmental things that move bridge over time / temperature.
Concrete columns typically are ONLY STRONG ENOUGH TO HOLD THEIR OWN WEIGHT. careful planning of inner metal fabrication is done that is inside these "columns"
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
64t4m
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:13PM
concrete is so generally brittle that it can be very tall and still hold it's own weight. throw in sideways forces and that worsens. (in general if you see a concrete column taller than a few feet and not very wide, it's got something inside)
greek/roman columns are an exception to the rule. they are very wide and made by experience to hold a limited weight roof (and were problematic - the design we see came after much time and works only for it's application)
greek/roman columns are an exception to the rule. they are very wide and made by experience to hold a limited weight roof (and were problematic - the design we see came after much time and works only for it's application)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
correction
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:16PM
on auto bridges we commonly see in DMV, the center of the highway is a "median strip" and allows a column to help hold the auto bridge (the picture used is slighly in-appropriate for saying that)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
pdkv7
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:19PM
here one can see "the metal". green ibeams with a little rust make them easy to see.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
cwph9
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:29PM
Witness Suzy Bermudez told ABC News that she was sitting in traffic when she saw the bridge collapse from the left and then toward the middle.
so there was tension of the unsupported middle pulling at ends, and one side pulled off. that fits everything mentioned i think.
it's a question if the attaching of rebar to the mooring or "beefy land point end" of the bridge, if the tension was mediated for earth movement, and such
in general if allot of tension is placed on rebar: it will simply pull out of concrete. that happened in california's last big earthquake - so there's tons of engineering papers written on it.
in this case the rebar was apparently used to both "keep tension on concrete so it doesn't bow down" and also support the tension at the ends (moorings)
i don't see it, personally. the cables aren't thick enough and i can't see why it wouldn't rip out. BUT NOTE i can't see the "whole thing" of course, and that all is just a guess
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
xnkpw
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:31PM
rebar is used on the (lower 1/4 but not lowest) to prevent SMALL AREA BOWING when placed horizontally
using the same rebar sunk in concrete it to support a span but also to tension the concrete- i never heard of that. i can't imagine anyone believing that would work
using the same rebar sunk in concrete it to support a span but also to tension the concrete- i never heard of that. i can't imagine anyone believing that would work
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
vudbk
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:38PM
in (garage floor application) you have this web of rebar. concrete bends but breaks if it moves just (milli meters over a meter). the worst bend is on the belly (lower) side of concrete - which is also where tension is highest (so you have compressed and stretched areas on the belly - exactly what concrete doesn't like - sheering / side bends).
you have this HUGELY tensioned ribbed rods in the concrete. if the tension changes you can see the compression on the concrete changes. so this should be limited to small areas i'd guess. why is because over the long of a bridge: the tensions would be huge (rip rods right out of concrete). but also they'd fluctuate quite a bit. at that tension, at that length, the fluctation (compression and decompression) would just be terrible
PERHAPS i'm wrong. perhaps the huge white thing was not rebar (if not what was holding it the small rebar? not a f'ing chance of that@!!) but an electrical condiut. PERHAPS the "main tension" was provided by tensioned metals i cannot see in photo that were not bonded inside (cemented in) to concrete
you have this HUGELY tensioned ribbed rods in the concrete. if the tension changes you can see the compression on the concrete changes. so this should be limited to small areas i'd guess. why is because over the long of a bridge: the tensions would be huge (rip rods right out of concrete). but also they'd fluctuate quite a bit. at that tension, at that length, the fluctation (compression and decompression) would just be terrible
PERHAPS i'm wrong. perhaps the huge white thing was not rebar (if not what was holding it the small rebar? not a f'ing chance of that@!!) but an electrical condiut. PERHAPS the "main tension" was provided by tensioned metals i cannot see in photo that were not bonded inside (cemented in) to concrete
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
NOT American Society of Civil E-
()
Date: March 15, 2018 06:48PM
FIGG is florida and texas based, FIU is the school's name (bridge neer / to a university btw, who participated with design apparently)
the bridge design was a "FIRST EVER DESIGN"
(for pedestrians? are you f'ing with me?)
Another company that took part in the bridge's construction, FIGG Engineering, said in a statement that it was "stunned" and that "nothing like this has ever happened before" in its 40-year history.
(not 40 yrs on these: it's reported as a first time design. and in general pedestrian overpasses over super highways just didn't exist 40 years ago (mostly, almost wholey))
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
76m3j
()
Date: March 15, 2018 07:01PM
i saw in the pictures what i saw as "delamination". also lengths of rebar sticking out. the rebar may have pulled out after / during collapse - but one has to look at the lenght of rebar and consider if it pulled out or "somehow" all the concrete around it broke leaving it mysteriously straight
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Green Concrete?
()
Date: March 15, 2018 07:09PM
There is going to be a shitload of paperwork for this fuck up.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Trolled
()
Date: March 15, 2018 07:18PM
3twxf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> one in fairfax fell as well some several years
> back
>
> if you watched the History channel you'd know:
> pedestrian bridge designs are "kinda new" (do not
> have a long history nor reliable history). all
> bridges had a horrible history of collapse - it
> wasn't until a PRIVATE COMPANY (not gov.) spent
> huge sums of money designing an i-beam / concrete
> hybrid in a certain design they became "stable and
> reliable". the company charges for the rights to
> copy it's plans: but foriegn countries (even
> counties in USA) are stealing the building plans
> (same deal with chicago / ny skyscraper plans:
> foreigners ripped them off)
>
> these pedestrian bridges are sometimes locally
> designed and made: though there are (big company
> alternatives) - which means they aren't only
> "somewhat new" but also PROBABLY NEVER TIME
> TESTED
>
> it takes hell to get a (type of) bridge working -
> it is no "simple thing". why they were
> "confidant" with a somewhat minimal design i have
> no idea
>
>
Damn! I was taking you seriously not realizing..., until I got to the xtra large bold shit, that it was you! Shit!
-------------------------------------------------------
> one in fairfax fell as well some several years
> back
>
> if you watched the History channel you'd know:
> pedestrian bridge designs are "kinda new" (do not
> have a long history nor reliable history). all
> bridges had a horrible history of collapse - it
> wasn't until a PRIVATE COMPANY (not gov.) spent
> huge sums of money designing an i-beam / concrete
> hybrid in a certain design they became "stable and
> reliable". the company charges for the rights to
> copy it's plans: but foriegn countries (even
> counties in USA) are stealing the building plans
> (same deal with chicago / ny skyscraper plans:
> foreigners ripped them off)
>
> these pedestrian bridges are sometimes locally
> designed and made: though there are (big company
> alternatives) - which means they aren't only
> "somewhat new" but also PROBABLY NEVER TIME
> TESTED
>
> it takes hell to get a (type of) bridge working -
> it is no "simple thing". why they were
> "confidant" with a somewhat minimal design i have
> no idea
>
>
> I only have to look at pics to see MAJOR design
> flaws.
>
> It either had no i-beam frame or the frame was
> never welded by contractors to be continuous. The
> debris (helicopter view) appears to be %100
> crumbled concrete so i'm thinking:
>
> * they didn't use IRON (see the DC four story)
>
> * they used re-bar but did NOT follow currently
> valid data (ie, from California or Ohio or who
> testing labs) for the proper use of rebar. this
> is what i attribute to not seeing any "large
> lengths of metal in the mess"
>
> * rebar should never have been used
>
>
Damn! I was taking you seriously not realizing..., until I got to the xtra large bold shit, that it was you! Shit!
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
9lkhm
()
Date: March 15, 2018 08:17PM
.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Someone Said
()
Date: March 15, 2018 09:28PM
Something heavy fell from a crane and hit the bridge
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
His Name Please
()
Date: March 15, 2018 09:31PM
Jose Tequila was the crane operator Si
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
dpcwk
()
Date: March 15, 2018 09:37PM
Apparently the walkway was undergoing a stress test with live traffic passing underneath. That's not a very conservative approach to testing. It certainly looks like the span bowed and pulled off one of the footings.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
protest
()
Date: March 16, 2018 10:45AM
when to we go protest at the ASCE headquarters? When do we walk out of school?
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Almost Right
()
Date: March 16, 2018 11:55AM
Civ Eng Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No doubt a minority set-aside contract to
> afro-engineer that bridge.
More like beaner-engineered. The company is one of the largest minority-owned contractors.
Shit like this is what happens when you value diversity over competence! Blood is clearly on the hands of every dumbass liberal voter!
-------------------------------------------------------
> No doubt a minority set-aside contract to
> afro-engineer that bridge.
More like beaner-engineered. The company is one of the largest minority-owned contractors.
Shit like this is what happens when you value diversity over competence! Blood is clearly on the hands of every dumbass liberal voter!
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
hg7bn
()
Date: March 16, 2018 12:26PM
Almost Right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Civ Eng Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No doubt a minority set-aside contract to
> > afro-engineer that bridge.
>
> More like beaner-engineered. The company is one
> of the largest minority-owned contractors.
>
> Shit like this is what happens when you value
> diversity over competence! Blood is clearly on
> the hands of every dumbass liberal voter!
if this was an obama era "minority friendly" business startup aided by government (which was advertised on tv they were doing), and furthermore if the workers were "fast tracked" (given education and certification to work through government programs - usually for immigrants and blacks the process is "sped up and cheap")
it's important that venezuela style contracting not become a facet of USA's infrastructure contracting. they have far more accidents and USA simply isn't going to put up with using "political favorites" to design and get jobs to build USA's infrastructure
-------------------------------------------------------
> Civ Eng Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No doubt a minority set-aside contract to
> > afro-engineer that bridge.
>
> More like beaner-engineered. The company is one
> of the largest minority-owned contractors.
>
> Shit like this is what happens when you value
> diversity over competence! Blood is clearly on
> the hands of every dumbass liberal voter!
please give more info
if this was an obama or clinton era "government aided startup business" or tied to democrats and (illegals), IT'S IMPORTANT
if this was an obama era "minority friendly" business startup aided by government (which was advertised on tv they were doing), and furthermore if the workers were "fast tracked" (given education and certification to work through government programs - usually for immigrants and blacks the process is "sped up and cheap")
it's important that venezuela style contracting not become a facet of USA's infrastructure contracting. they have far more accidents and USA simply isn't going to put up with using "political favorites" to design and get jobs to build USA's infrastructure
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
flw9e
()
Date: March 16, 2018 12:28PM
dpcwk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently the walkway was undergoing a stress
> test with live traffic passing underneath. That's
> not a very conservative approach to testing. It
> certainly looks like the span bowed and pulled off
> one of the footings.
certainly. ie, California has large scale testing labs that test component failure before construction begins
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apparently the walkway was undergoing a stress
> test with live traffic passing underneath. That's
> not a very conservative approach to testing. It
> certainly looks like the span bowed and pulled off
> one of the footings.
certainly. ie, California has large scale testing labs that test component failure before construction begins
HOWEVER - THERE ARE already conflicting stories above
we may find out "democrats" built it and that the only story available is fake news. that would be the worst news.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Hillary 2020
()
Date: March 16, 2018 12:35PM
As anyone considered that the Russians hacked the bridge?
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Possibilities,3RD WORLD MISTAKES
()
Date: March 16, 2018 12:50PM
Some good ideas here as to what may have happened.
Did something heavy really fall from the crane onto the bridge?
It's appears this "new type of installation" to prevent having traffic re-routed or running a detour has failed.
Putting in the main bridge structure and completing it afterwards.
I wonder if the it was a problem with the concrete as one poster postulated.
Perhaps it hadn't had enough time to cure before installation?
Or perhaps there were inconsistencies within the concrete which caused poor weight distribution across the rebar?
Too much sand in the concrete in order to save money?
Were all the supporting and girding structures in place at the time of the collapse?
Or were they doing some of this post installation?
Terrible and sad.
Did something heavy really fall from the crane onto the bridge?
It's appears this "new type of installation" to prevent having traffic re-routed or running a detour has failed.
Putting in the main bridge structure and completing it afterwards.
I wonder if the it was a problem with the concrete as one poster postulated.
Perhaps it hadn't had enough time to cure before installation?
Or perhaps there were inconsistencies within the concrete which caused poor weight distribution across the rebar?
Too much sand in the concrete in order to save money?
Were all the supporting and girding structures in place at the time of the collapse?
Or were they doing some of this post installation?
Terrible and sad.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
9l94w
()
Date: March 16, 2018 12:57PM
Hillary 2020 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As anyone considered that the Russians hacked the
> bridge?
it's a good conspiracy theory: allot of money involved, we guess florida university has illegal aliens working as engineering professors (most big obama schools do), workers not born in this country, and so on
there are ALLOT of motives to break more than one fixes for these usa haters
people in fx co using them for contractors have no idea they break things when they build things to guarantee later work / screw over usa. you have to really be careful hiring america haters to build your home or someone else's (home)
before clinton these were HIGH PAYING JOBS - it wasn't until clinton "double government pay" (become 3x-15x pay) that construction workers become the "lower class" in USA. they were richer than Honest Senators, in the 80's
-------------------------------------------------------
> As anyone considered that the Russians hacked the
> bridge?
it's a good conspiracy theory: allot of money involved, we guess florida university has illegal aliens working as engineering professors (most big obama schools do), workers not born in this country, and so on
there are ALLOT of motives to break more than one fixes for these usa haters
people in fx co using them for contractors have no idea they break things when they build things to guarantee later work / screw over usa. you have to really be careful hiring america haters to build your home or someone else's (home)
before clinton these were HIGH PAYING JOBS - it wasn't until clinton "double government pay" (become 3x-15x pay) that construction workers become the "lower class" in USA. they were richer than Honest Senators, in the 80's
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Pedestrian corssing
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:04PM
Concrete is generally mixed with cement, coarse aggregate (gravel), fine aggregate (sand) and water. Sand and aggregate help reduce the cost of concrete, and also limit the amount of shrinkage that occurs as the concrete cures. Choice of aggregates depend on the thickness and use for the final product.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
ucbn9
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:08PM
According to Sen. Marco Rubio, the cables suspending the pedestrian bridge had loosened and were being tightened when the bridge collapsed. Investigations continue to find the cause of the collapse.
https://www.vox.com/2018/3/15/17126064/fiu-pedestrian-bridge-collapse-what-we-know
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
What if?
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:16PM
Over tightened .. or too much sand, so when tightened to specification, concrete have way, causing cables to snap.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
wfxcc
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:20PM
the above MAY ALSO BE FAKE NEWS, (the news florida contractors want insurers to hear)
the tension on the ends of such a bridge would be enormous. as said above there isn't any chance that if such cabling were bonded inside concrete that failure wouldn't happen
i would think they were off by a few to several exponential powers of how much tention would be needed to keep a long bridge (no support in middle of superhighway planned) "STRAIGHT" enough so that expression and expansion of downward bowing would not exceed the sheer strength of concrete.
POINT: there isn't any amount of tension they could have supplied that would have prevented enough bowing to crack the ... rather thin ... concrete unless: (1) there was an iron skeleton so no tension was needed (but we saw none in debris) or (2) it was a "massive cable" suspended bridge: but we didn't see that in the debris either ... nor do the land moorings appear to have apparatus to hold such a beast
the tension on the ends of such a bridge would be enormous. as said above there isn't any chance that if such cabling were bonded inside concrete that failure wouldn't happen
i would think they were off by a few to several exponential powers of how much tention would be needed to keep a long bridge (no support in middle of superhighway planned) "STRAIGHT" enough so that expression and expansion of downward bowing would not exceed the sheer strength of concrete.
POINT: there isn't any amount of tension they could have supplied that would have prevented enough bowing to crack the ... rather thin ... concrete unless: (1) there was an iron skeleton so no tension was needed (but we saw none in debris) or (2) it was a "massive cable" suspended bridge: but we didn't see that in the debris either ... nor do the land moorings appear to have apparatus to hold such a beast
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
My retarded fingers can't type
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:21PM
gave way*
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
v3ymc
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:22PM
Pedestrian corssing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Concrete is generally mixed with cement, coarse
> aggregate (gravel), fine aggregate (sand) and
> water. Sand and aggregate help reduce the cost of
> concrete,
you have no idea how wrong you are
-------------------------------------------------------
> Concrete is generally mixed with cement, coarse
> aggregate (gravel), fine aggregate (sand) and
> water. Sand and aggregate help reduce the cost of
> concrete,
you have no idea how wrong you are
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
894736
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:26PM
^^^
explain since you know better
explain since you know better
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
4092834098243
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:27PM
Adding sand can reduce the cost, no?
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
9uhfe
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:27PM
Hillary 2020 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As anyone considered that the Russians hacked the
> bridge?
oh yea conspiracy. so it's QUITE possible they were like "sure, for $14.5 million we can put up a thing that costs $100,000 (in concrete and rebar) and walk away. sure it won't work but we'll be rich and gone)
the only thing preventing that corruption (ie, might happen in venezuela) is INSURANCE and who pays. usually when a gov does work:
(a) employee pay must be insured (guaranteed)
(b) catastrophe must be insured
(c) etc. everything is guaranted to finish BEFORE any work is started
that DOES leave a point of attack, a loophole, of: what if they don't intend it to "work", what if they intend to make their money and run or cause it to be built 2x (unions love it when projects fail, if you didn't know - ask NEW YORK and their mob if jobs ever "fail" and get done 2x)
-------------------------------------------------------
> As anyone considered that the Russians hacked the
> bridge?
oh yea conspiracy. so it's QUITE possible they were like "sure, for $14.5 million we can put up a thing that costs $100,000 (in concrete and rebar) and walk away. sure it won't work but we'll be rich and gone)
the only thing preventing that corruption (ie, might happen in venezuela) is INSURANCE and who pays. usually when a gov does work:
(a) employee pay must be insured (guaranteed)
(b) catastrophe must be insured
(c) etc. everything is guaranted to finish BEFORE any work is started
that DOES leave a point of attack, a loophole, of: what if they don't intend it to "work", what if they intend to make their money and run or cause it to be built 2x (unions love it when projects fail, if you didn't know - ask NEW YORK and their mob if jobs ever "fail" and get done 2x)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
questionaire
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:33PM
think of it this way.
you have two 10' 1/2" pine planks and drill holes through their length, insert 1/8" bolts "tightened", and then put HUNDREDS of pounds in the middle, bouncing a little too. you know that's gonna come apart, i hope.
the situation i see above is NOT NEARLY as stable as the wood thing i just described: it has a second deck that is NOT self sufficient/suspended, and has concrete (which cannot bow even a few millimeters before fracturing)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
nwfe7
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:43PM
here's YET ANOTHER think I see that's "JUST WRONG"
(noting california released studied i quickly looked at a couple years back during an effort to make concrete columns i abandoned)
when you put tension on concrete columns (noting this one is horizontal so hold that aside !!), you MUST have plates on each end of the column so the pressure is even and square. in the above the bolts apply pressure directly onto the concrete: this creates a compression under bolts but EXPANSION to make up for the bulge: failure is imminent just because of that alone.
(noting california released studied i quickly looked at a couple years back during an effort to make concrete columns i abandoned)
when you put tension on concrete columns (noting this one is horizontal so hold that aside !!), you MUST have plates on each end of the column so the pressure is even and square. in the above the bolts apply pressure directly onto the concrete: this creates a compression under bolts but EXPANSION to make up for the bulge: failure is imminent just because of that alone.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
xjecu
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:47PM
cal has always been big on studies and i'm thankful to see what i have seen.
(fun fact: VA has done many lumber utilization studies to spread use of lumber in structural (homes) - from some of that we see "joist tables" for how much load lumber truss and lumber column can hold and how to best use lumber)
wow think of what a big sequoia could do across that span. amazing trees in cal - they don't cut them down anymore i've heard.
the recent cal studies (MANY) surrounded the fact that during an earth quake a cal double decker bridge upper deck fell onto the lower deck. use of rebar pulling out of the concrete due to tension was the cause. thus more studies were done on what rebar cannot do, it's best use, limitations
(fun fact: VA has done many lumber utilization studies to spread use of lumber in structural (homes) - from some of that we see "joist tables" for how much load lumber truss and lumber column can hold and how to best use lumber)
wow think of what a big sequoia could do across that span. amazing trees in cal - they don't cut them down anymore i've heard.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
6pnut
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:56PM
(FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T look at cal studies ... concrete has a "great" but not infinite ability to compress. it is said to have a "sheer strength" though multi-dimensionally the issue gets more complicated. it's EXPANSION that concrete can't handle. when you bend concrete it compresses in one zone (concave portion) and must expand elsewhere (convex portion))
concrete doesn't allow bending, but it's any form of expansion force that isn't allowed. (from example above - a column that holds allot of weight has to have very complex inner metal design, since concrete cannot hold it's own weight in even a vertical column: IT MUST BE CAPPED CAREFULLY to avoid absolutely any un-even application of force at head and toe)
concrete doesn't allow bending, but it's any form of expansion force that isn't allowed. (from example above - a column that holds allot of weight has to have very complex inner metal design, since concrete cannot hold it's own weight in even a vertical column: IT MUST BE CAPPED CAREFULLY to avoid absolutely any un-even application of force at head and toe)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
6pnut
()
Date: March 16, 2018 01:57PM
(example above means: tightening bolts directly onto concrete. it's never allowed)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
pvyen
()
Date: March 16, 2018 02:22PM
Sales level brochure
https://www.tylin.com/en/about
(is OP right about fairfax connection? still no, this is an "internatuional group", very likely asian group located in (china) that is seeking building contracts in USA, if they are "in fairfax" - only incidentally - a way to leach off of non-loyal county governments who hire illegal work :)
highlights:
4.8 Earthquake Effects, Earthquake effects shall be considered in the design in accordance with Section 2.3 of the SDG.
4.9 Vehicular Collision Loads, Structures shall be designed according to SDG Section 2.6 and LRFD Section 3.6.5. (ha! no columns on 11 line superhighway had no center medium, no collision possible! cut&paste factor: %100)
5.9 Deck Systems, The bridge superstructure should be primarily structural steel with concrete walking surface. The design should avoid use of non-redundant, fracture critical members.
C. Other deck systems are subject to approval.
https://facilities.fiu.edu/projects/BT_904/Request_for_Qualifications-Request_for_Proposals/e._FIU_Pedestrian_Bridge_Design_Criteria_2014_06_11_FINAL.pdf
Attachments:
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
ubuch
()
Date: March 16, 2018 02:27PM
SORRY. I can find MANY florida government worker made "pedestrian bridge general guideline" thuds online. i cannot find the plans for this bridge.
a big mystery to me
the plans were said to be "a first, innovative". so they should be online somewhere
a big mystery to me
the plans were said to be "a first, innovative". so they should be online somewhere
if you can find the structural member plans (structure, material used) online please post the URL in this thread Please
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
54y6hgf
()
Date: March 16, 2018 02:41PM
you might think: well the lower deck wasn't steel because the upper (rain cover) is steel trussed (zig zags) to a metal top (concrete covered) to suspend the bridge, which sits on (pretty thin) moorings
I thought this then i did a double take: these also appear to be an "inexpensive" tangle of rebar and concrete
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
TheCause
()
Date: March 16, 2018 04:56PM
Minority contracting firm. Who cares if the bridge fails? The important thing is that they steered money to democrat-voting illegals.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
p3fkt
()
Date: March 17, 2018 06:03PM
TheCause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Minority contracting firm. Who cares if the
> bridge fails? The important thing is that they
> steered money to democrat-voting illegals.
uh huh. and who built that parking garage you use at the mall? was it contracted by a building in this country or an "international group" ?
does ignoring this story really not make a difference when you start looking into what was "going on" ?
this was not attempt at K.I.S.S. "sturdy safe pedestrian structure" you might expect from yesteryear's muni projects
there are significant problems digesting why a "paper thin" bridge for unprotected civilians (possibly HOARDS of students walking, ie during some protest) was placed over a wide super-highway (no center supports) and if any "usa standards" were used or if the contract had any merit to begin with. who signed the "bid" and did they bother to check _anything_ ?
ALL MAY BE OK. but it might be important to look into deep state on this.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Minority contracting firm. Who cares if the
> bridge fails? The important thing is that they
> steered money to democrat-voting illegals.
uh huh. and who built that parking garage you use at the mall? was it contracted by a building in this country or an "international group" ?
does ignoring this story really not make a difference when you start looking into what was "going on" ?
this was not attempt at K.I.S.S. "sturdy safe pedestrian structure" you might expect from yesteryear's muni projects
there are significant problems digesting why a "paper thin" bridge for unprotected civilians (possibly HOARDS of students walking, ie during some protest) was placed over a wide super-highway (no center supports) and if any "usa standards" were used or if the contract had any merit to begin with. who signed the "bid" and did they bother to check _anything_ ?
ALL MAY BE OK. but it might be important to look into deep state on this.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
wkfpc
()
Date: March 19, 2018 01:08PM
.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
LVF7H
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:03PM
I think the problem is stupid obvious!
Look at the model and rendering, there were quite a bit of suspension components of this bridge that were not in place.
Clearly there was no temporary center support in place otherwise this would be a section in the center of the debris still standing vertically.
Unfortunately someone did not get or read the memo!
Attachments:
Look at the model and rendering, there were quite a bit of suspension components of this bridge that were not in place.
Clearly there was no temporary center support in place otherwise this would be a section in the center of the debris still standing vertically.
Unfortunately someone did not get or read the memo!
Attachments:
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
m3x6u
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:07PM
NTSB is investigating (the government investigating itself, imho)
what i don't like about this diagram (which NTSB is purporting was filed )
I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT THE ASIAN COMPANY WAS BUILDING. I THINK IT'S A DIFFERENT PLAN
* the design shown isn't innovative it's "the usual" - a copy of very old USA technology (not asian)
* we saw from videos and ground footage there are not "moorings" for such wires - the bridge WAS SMOOTH ON ALL SURFACES. where would wires be attached? my point: they wouldn't on a smooth surface. it's a cover-up !!
* a suspended bridge is not built without suspesion (the ground pillars and suspension is INSTALLED FIRST, and construct as you go methods attach new members to the suspension)
* the bridge was made without "iron infrastructure" it was just cheap concrete an rebar. a technique such as "putting the bridge in place and attaching what holds it up later" would not be an "available technique"
* a suspension bridge was not SHOWN in the sales brochure in the sales ad shown far above, and but the sales brochure DOES say iron structure is "necessary"
* due to "seedy government - you cannot say which plan WOULD HAVE BEEN FOLLOW - because they change plans (refile) at any time. obviously the plan with the iron frame being "necessary" had already been edited to "rebar is ok"
POINT: the nubs on the top deck were present - that doesn't mean the contractor ever intended to pay the money to install the "expensive part" of the bridge
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
XPENE
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:21PM
Civil engineering doctoral student Dewan Hossain said: “I would say this is magic. In five hours using that ABC technology and sensors, the bridge is already there. In the classroom, we learn about the design, the construction, the safety – that’s a big issue – and here we’re seeing it actually happening. Here we are establishing a real, practical application of what we learn in the classroom. I would encourage more students to come view these types of projects to enhance what they learn.
Seems they failed to cover safety and common sense in the classroom!
I cannot believe anyone did not question why there was no temporary support in the center of the bridge.
You can see from the road stripping, there could have easily been a support that could have been in place that would not have impacted traffic or if you needed more support, then maybe the Left Turn lane would have been used and this would have been a short term inconvenience.
Notice the section to the left of the unused/stripped lane is fully in tact, it appears that the bridge may have fractured right at the area between the thru lanes and the left turn lane.
Attachments:
Seems they failed to cover safety and common sense in the classroom!
I cannot believe anyone did not question why there was no temporary support in the center of the bridge.
You can see from the road stripping, there could have easily been a support that could have been in place that would not have impacted traffic or if you needed more support, then maybe the Left Turn lane would have been used and this would have been a short term inconvenience.
Notice the section to the left of the unused/stripped lane is fully in tact, it appears that the bridge may have fractured right at the area between the thru lanes and the left turn lane.
Attachments:
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
curing cement
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:28PM
http://www.cement.org/learn/concrete-technology/concrete-construction/curing-in-construction
it's not true you can take somewhat new concrete (not "fully cured", not yet full strength), put incredible stress on it (lay 100,000 tons of it across 12 lane superhighway), then later support it ... "TEMPORARILY STRESSING IT"
what is true is that any stresses in concrete creating "micro fractures" experienced during curing is PERMANENT DAMAGE. again, not all cracks would be necessarily visible if overstressed, and the ripe time for this to happen is when concrete is "recently cured".
(furthermore, while pouring - keeping material choice aside, it must be vibrated by machines so rocks don't get stuck in rebar and create voids: a significant issue - voids are the normal (without vibration) and if any are left, the structure is badly weakened)
it's not true that...
it's not true you can take somewhat new concrete (not "fully cured", not yet full strength), put incredible stress on it (lay 100,000 tons of it across 12 lane superhighway), then later support it ... "TEMPORARILY STRESSING IT"
what is true is that any stresses in concrete creating "micro fractures" experienced during curing is PERMANENT DAMAGE. again, not all cracks would be necessarily visible if overstressed, and the ripe time for this to happen is when concrete is "recently cured".
(furthermore, while pouring - keeping material choice aside, it must be vibrated by machines so rocks don't get stuck in rebar and create voids: a significant issue - voids are the normal (without vibration) and if any are left, the structure is badly weakened)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
4fgeds
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:33PM
that you for the comment fellow automoton #XPENE. your point is right - i didn't above see that one "lane" is not required for traffic
HOwever your post picture shows another thing that concerns me. rebar sticking out of the "suspension holding nubs" - counting very few and of smaller diameter per say.
I would not suspend 100,000 tons by the combination of several pads as i see: just some several rebar sticking out of each pad. Even were the bridge suspended I would say the rebar may pull out in an earthquake.
HOwever your post picture shows another thing that concerns me. rebar sticking out of the "suspension holding nubs" - counting very few and of smaller diameter per say.
I would not suspend 100,000 tons by the combination of several pads as i see: just some several rebar sticking out of each pad. Even were the bridge suspended I would say the rebar may pull out in an earthquake.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
4fgeds
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:44PM
correction: those may be "bolts" (and if so, perhaps connected somehow to rebar in a way we cannot see)
but the pictures above show while the pads are of "better construction" they did break apart after the fall (normal considering): and that the ones that broke were of concrete and rebar (the bolt attachment not yet seen)
yet further above it's is vividly clear that when the bridge went up: there was NO suspension system present
the ONLY pics i can find for FIU bridge showing suspension systems are "HIGH TECH" COMPUTER MODELED PROPOSALS (never actually made)
but the pictures above show while the pads are of "better construction" they did break apart after the fall (normal considering): and that the ones that broke were of concrete and rebar (the bolt attachment not yet seen)
yet further above it's is vividly clear that when the bridge went up: there was NO suspension system present
the ONLY pics i can find for FIU bridge showing suspension systems are "HIGH TECH" COMPUTER MODELED PROPOSALS (never actually made)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
4dmnk
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:44PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6L20i6_gzE
seconds before the collapse, shows the full collapse happen. no suspension system was in place at all
Attachments:
seconds before the collapse, shows the full collapse happen. no suspension system was in place at all
Attachments:
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
chwge
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:48PM
condolences to the two workers on the top deck we see working - one which is near a the crane hook (2nd from left) exactly where the bridge cracked
it was a crack - an rapid splitting of concrete (with rebar pulled out) and subsequent fall. (ie, no strange metal sounds, no slow turning or strange twisting, just a crack and immediate fall)
it was a crack - an rapid splitting of concrete (with rebar pulled out) and subsequent fall. (ie, no strange metal sounds, no slow turning or strange twisting, just a crack and immediate fall)
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
chwge
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:49PM
we can guess worker #2 was preparing the pad/mooring for where a suspension would be connected in future. perhaps tightening a bolt - though doing so would be ahead of schedule as there is no suspension system even begun yet.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
Ludwig
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:53PM
Miami Bridge Failure- preliminary analysis 17 March 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBDDQLcp6iI
Interesting....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBDDQLcp6iI
Interesting....
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
3jn3x
()
Date: March 19, 2018 02:54PM
fairfax virginia had a building collapse (in the 70's?) - a tall building and not many / any tall buildings were built for decades in fairfax after it occurred
they were using "accelerated assembly" techniques and also rushing with workers who did not "do the rebar right" (if they were ever told to: likely not). (fx co also had a pedestrian bridge collapse - the engineering details i'm clueless about)
that building collapse did make it on H channel "Engineering Disasters": the rebar around the iron was not set well, the concrete too fresh, the construction too rapid - one floor section around an ibeam weakened fell down, and the rest was cascasde collapse, and history
they were using "accelerated assembly" techniques and also rushing with workers who did not "do the rebar right" (if they were ever told to: likely not). (fx co also had a pedestrian bridge collapse - the engineering details i'm clueless about)
that building collapse did make it on H channel "Engineering Disasters": the rebar around the iron was not set well, the concrete too fresh, the construction too rapid - one floor section around an ibeam weakened fell down, and the rest was cascasde collapse, and history
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
gfked
()
Date: March 19, 2018 03:09PM
the conspiracy theory is still:
* they purportedly had already spent $14.5 million
* pre-build sections containing ~ $200 thousand (inexpensive materials) were put up, which including an expensive lift rental, would be a million at most?
* the EXPENSIVE PART was never started
* the new design is not evident: the idea of suspension was copied from other designs but never fabricated / erected, the concrete/rebar "pre-made" section is arguably not even bridge technology (arguably building structure of another kind, which saves cost when used in buildings appropriately)
* the cost difference is obvious - A FLASH IN THE PAN is conspiratorially apparent
* they purportedly had already spent $14.5 million
* pre-build sections containing ~ $200 thousand (inexpensive materials) were put up, which including an expensive lift rental, would be a million at most?
* the EXPENSIVE PART was never started
* the new design is not evident: the idea of suspension was copied from other designs but never fabricated / erected, the concrete/rebar "pre-made" section is arguably not even bridge technology (arguably building structure of another kind, which saves cost when used in buildings appropriately)
* the cost difference is obvious - A FLASH IN THE PAN is conspiratorially apparent
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
correction
()
Date: March 19, 2018 03:10PM
the cost difference is obvious - "a con game" is conspiratorially apparent - what your shown and what is paid for is different
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
YCPLG
()
Date: March 19, 2018 04:34PM
The Skyline Tower collapse in the 70's near Bailey's Crossroads was due to the forms from lower floors being removed before the 28 day concrete cure time.
The building was pretty much cut in half as the center of most if not all floors gave way. I was a younger kid and I recall hear and even seeing the aftermath of that mess. Spooked me pretty good as a youngster.
This bridge CLEARLY should have had some form of temporary center support in place until the tower and suspension system was in place. The video above the guy claimed this was for aesthetics, this is crap, nobody would spend the extra money and time to build a tower with suspension for aesthetics. The span and weight was HUGE and needed additional support which the bridge clearly did not have.
What we do not know is the cure time on the concrete and if this bridge was pre-stressed concrete with large cables that are stretched and then the pressure is released to "compress" the bridge lengthwise.
I may be wrong, but I would not have expected the lower span to break like it did if the lower portion of the span had pre-stressed cables of sufficient strength.
But the really sad part of all of this is there was no temporary or permanent center support that could have been in the dead space between the Left Turn and Thru lanes.
So much wrong here, but someone stamped the plans, I would love to see the assembly instructions and plan.
The building was pretty much cut in half as the center of most if not all floors gave way. I was a younger kid and I recall hear and even seeing the aftermath of that mess. Spooked me pretty good as a youngster.
This bridge CLEARLY should have had some form of temporary center support in place until the tower and suspension system was in place. The video above the guy claimed this was for aesthetics, this is crap, nobody would spend the extra money and time to build a tower with suspension for aesthetics. The span and weight was HUGE and needed additional support which the bridge clearly did not have.
What we do not know is the cure time on the concrete and if this bridge was pre-stressed concrete with large cables that are stretched and then the pressure is released to "compress" the bridge lengthwise.
I may be wrong, but I would not have expected the lower span to break like it did if the lower portion of the span had pre-stressed cables of sufficient strength.
But the really sad part of all of this is there was no temporary or permanent center support that could have been in the dead space between the Left Turn and Thru lanes.
So much wrong here, but someone stamped the plans, I would love to see the assembly instructions and plan.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
te7ep
()
Date: March 19, 2018 06:39PM
YCPLG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Skyline Tower collapse in the 70's near
> Bailey's Crossroads was due to the forms from
> lower floors being removed before the 28 day
> concrete cure time.
That's not the "full report". That's not what the History channel expert said. Though I don't doubt it contributed - as that again is part of "rushing".
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Skyline Tower collapse in the 70's near
> Bailey's Crossroads was due to the forms from
> lower floors being removed before the 28 day
> concrete cure time.
That's not the "full report". That's not what the History channel expert said. Though I don't doubt it contributed - as that again is part of "rushing".
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
whydc
()
Date: March 19, 2018 06:41PM
YCPLG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I may be wrong, but I would not have expected the
> lower span to break like it did if the lower
> portion of the span had pre-stressed cables of
> sufficient strength.
i yield to may statements above in this thread all which contradict that statement
-------------------------------------------------------
> I may be wrong, but I would not have expected the
> lower span to break like it did if the lower
> portion of the span had pre-stressed cables of
> sufficient strength.
i yield to may statements above in this thread all which contradict that statement
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
correction
()
Date: March 19, 2018 07:42PM
> one in fairfax fell as well some several years back
i'm looking for references to this can find it
i'm now unsure if the bridge fell or had to be "re-done" - but i'm sure i learned about it on internet news and can't find it now. i am sure it was a pedestrian (overpass or bridge) connected to a bike trail going over a highway, and that the project was delayed and costs increased.
a problem here is there are so many scattered rantings of projects (pdf showing planning of tens or hundreds of inner project data) and no coherent lists - it's impossible to sift through them all to find "basic data", ie of which went forward, which were torn down, etc.
there is no NTSB of recent failure in fairfax i can find
i'm looking for references to this can find it
i'm now unsure if the bridge fell or had to be "re-done" - but i'm sure i learned about it on internet news and can't find it now. i am sure it was a pedestrian (overpass or bridge) connected to a bike trail going over a highway, and that the project was delayed and costs increased.
a problem here is there are so many scattered rantings of projects (pdf showing planning of tens or hundreds of inner project data) and no coherent lists - it's impossible to sift through them all to find "basic data", ie of which went forward, which were torn down, etc.
there is no NTSB of recent failure in fairfax i can find
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
WWENC
()
Date: March 19, 2018 07:50PM
te7ep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> YCPLG Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Skyline Tower collapse in the 70's near
> > Bailey's Crossroads was due to the forms from
> > lower floors being removed before the 28 day
> > concrete cure time.
>
> That's not the "full report". That's not what the
> History channel expert said. Though I don't doubt
> it contributed - as that again is part of
> "rushing".
I recall hearing the shoring forms were removed too quickly before the 28 day cure time, but since the collapse also happened in March 2, 1973 I would not be surprised if the concrete was poured in the cold temps and not insulated properly as well.
The spooky thing was the building stood cut in half 16 months before construction resumed to repair the building.
From the Wiki page:
"Fairfax County hired Professor Ingvar Schoushoe of the University of Illinois, Urbana, a civil engineer, to investigate the cause of the collapse. He determined that the collapse occurred because of the premature removal of shoring from beneath newly poured floors.[6][9][10]
George Taylor, a workman for Northwest Sheet Metal, Inc., claimed that workmen were pulling concrete supports "out too damn fast. They're trying to hustle the job too damn fast.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_Towers_collapse
-------------------------------------------------------
> YCPLG Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Skyline Tower collapse in the 70's near
> > Bailey's Crossroads was due to the forms from
> > lower floors being removed before the 28 day
> > concrete cure time.
>
> That's not the "full report". That's not what the
> History channel expert said. Though I don't doubt
> it contributed - as that again is part of
> "rushing".
I recall hearing the shoring forms were removed too quickly before the 28 day cure time, but since the collapse also happened in March 2, 1973 I would not be surprised if the concrete was poured in the cold temps and not insulated properly as well.
The spooky thing was the building stood cut in half 16 months before construction resumed to repair the building.
From the Wiki page:
"Fairfax County hired Professor Ingvar Schoushoe of the University of Illinois, Urbana, a civil engineer, to investigate the cause of the collapse. He determined that the collapse occurred because of the premature removal of shoring from beneath newly poured floors.[6][9][10]
George Taylor, a workman for Northwest Sheet Metal, Inc., claimed that workmen were pulling concrete supports "out too damn fast. They're trying to hustle the job too damn fast.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_Towers_collapse
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
bridge historian 9
()
Date: March 19, 2018 08:00PM
THIS is why we need more posts about roads, people! THIS is why it is important to ask:
Does anyone know how Lee Hwy got its name? or - Does anyone know why Sydenstricker road bends the way it does by Huntsman Rd.?
Does anyone know how Lee Hwy got its name? or - Does anyone know why Sydenstricker road bends the way it does by Huntsman Rd.?
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
$2.4 million dollar bike overpas
()
Date: March 19, 2018 08:13PM
it may have been this one (bridge problem, delayed opening to public and increased costs, and article i read years back)
https://patch.com/virginia/vienna/new-wod-pedestrian-bridge-opens-over-capital-beltway
however there are several bike path bridges now - so i can't be certain how many had (serious) delays or any failures (before opening failures - which don't necessarily "get investigated")
https://patch.com/virginia/vienna/new-wod-pedestrian-bridge-opens-over-capital-beltway
however there are several bike path bridges now - so i can't be certain how many had (serious) delays or any failures (before opening failures - which don't necessarily "get investigated")
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
bridge inspector 74
()
Date: March 19, 2018 08:17PM
The answer to your question is only 39 had a serious failure resulting in a fatality. That number is not as many as previous years.
Oh, the number of bike path bridges in Fairfax County now stands at 82.
Oh, the number of bike path bridges in Fairfax County now stands at 82.
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
vp6uf
()
Date: March 20, 2018 09:39AM
bridge inspector 74 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The answer to your question is only 39 had a
> serious failure resulting in a fatality. That
> number is not as many as previous years.
>
> Oh, the number of bike path bridges in Fairfax
> County now stands at 82.
i hope you mean 39 nation wide in all of history, or at least in all of history in fairfax (with most failures being further in the past), because that's "not a good number"
39 what again?
got a URL where you found that info?
but i likely "give up" trying to find that article (it's on patch.com somewhere, which doesn't allow "searching") - it's a proverbial needle in haystack now
-------------------------------------------------------
> The answer to your question is only 39 had a
> serious failure resulting in a fatality. That
> number is not as many as previous years.
>
> Oh, the number of bike path bridges in Fairfax
> County now stands at 82.
i hope you mean 39 nation wide in all of history, or at least in all of history in fairfax (with most failures being further in the past), because that's "not a good number"
39 what again?
got a URL where you found that info?
but i likely "give up" trying to find that article (it's on patch.com somewhere, which doesn't allow "searching") - it's a proverbial needle in haystack now
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
known fairfax collapses sans '70
()
Date: March 20, 2018 09:49AM
in 2016 the above happened to an (apparently older) "condo" in fairfax
it is reported the soil "pushed up" and broke the bottom off the building
(you have to ask yourself, do a double take, WHAT IS HOLDING UP THE BRICK ABOVE? the brick is just a skin which is fastened onto the structure - the iron holds the structure - however one still has to wonder how many floors of brick above do not fall down! neat.)
https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/03/6-mos-collapsed-condo-owners-homeless-options/
fairfax county is famous for engineering difficulty of larger buildings/structures due to ALLUVIAL SOIL (mushy soil left from the last ice age - structures often "settle" or move around unless extensive (planning) has occurred). it's part of why fairfax had no tall buildings for decades: the cost of getting pylons to bedrock is high
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
falkquier county collapse
()
Date: March 20, 2018 10:03AM
http://www.fauquiernow.com/index.php/fauquier_news/article/fauquier-bridge-collapses-as-ups-truck-attempts-to-cross-2017
the obvious policy on this bridge was: "it won't break while i'm on it, if I go quickly"
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
interesting case
()
Date: March 20, 2018 10:31AM
this "silver bridge" was believed to be extra durable because of it's "chain link design" (silver appearance was protective caoting), but fault was blamed at corrosion (or possible hiding of iron issues before assembly due to coating). if the bridge had rust or cracking: they couldn't see it, was the issue
http://failures.wikispaces.com/Silver%20Bridge%20%28Point%20Pleasant%29%20Collapse
"As it would later turn out, the advantages associated with using eyebar chains would be outweighed by the difficulty of inspecting and maintaining the bridge."
This collapse would eventually change the way that the United States inspected bridges and lead to the development of the National Bridge Inspection Standards (Delatte 2009, pp 80
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
norfolk bridge collapse
()
Date: March 20, 2018 10:41AM
company "involved" with FIU (claimed no failures in past) had had this in the past:
http://www.roanoke.com/news/virginia/company-behind-florida-bridge-that-collapsed-was-fined-by-virginia/article_51d06c93-f195-5a5a-93b4-8e53c3508aa8.html
we can see a "modern deck design", with a hollow eye below the riding/car deck, but we can't see inside the concrete to see if there is iron structure or (again, just rebar)
The June 2012 incident involved the South Norfolk Jordan Bridge over the Elizabeth River between Chesapeake and Portsmouth. It was being built by FIGG Bridge Engineers, based in Tallahassee, Fla.
"they modified a `girder` / ibeam without submitting it to an approval process"
-----------------------
however i see allot of iron in the assembly system, but not necessarily any in the bridge. the columns appear massive enough.
infact what i see is just: hollow concrete structure with rebar or bolts sticking out - inside the concrete is hidden - but i suspect there is nothing but rebar and maybe "tensioner bolts"
i would say it appears this is another "massive mis-estimation" of turning a rebar vertical column on it's side - expecting tension to cause the thing to hole weight. but i would say there are many powers of mis-estimation in hoping compression of concrete means a vertical column can bear weight when used horizontally
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
cce6l
()
Date: March 20, 2018 10:43AM
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
jordan bridge collapse youtube
()
Date: March 20, 2018 10:45AM
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
kftkk
()
Date: March 20, 2018 11:00AM
I probably am barred from saying "a vertical column, modified, can't be horizontal and bear structural loads and earthquakes" because likely there are (some) in service
however - i can still say: it's not what you think it is - even if it worked ... rebar does pull out of concrete and "compressed columns" aren't safe horizontally - not inherently. perhaps advanced engineering cause it to work in cases. but i there are failures with these. as an overall model i believe the math they are using saying "compression solves everything" does not include important factors
however - i can still say: it's not what you think it is - even if it worked ... rebar does pull out of concrete and "compressed columns" aren't safe horizontally - not inherently. perhaps advanced engineering cause it to work in cases. but i there are failures with these. as an overall model i believe the math they are using saying "compression solves everything" does not include important factors
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
rewind to previous photo
()
Date: March 20, 2018 11:09AM
we can see here we hope they got steel ibar under their concrete. but moreso even if it is only rebar and concrete:
the spans between support wires are very much shorter
the FIU spanned 12 lanes at ~ 12' each, or 144'. the above supports at every few car lengths i would estimate (at such a short distance, the bend of concrete supported by rebar would be a totally different story - closer to the "garage floor with rebar under" case - noting again a garage floor is supported by soil, and many crack because soil moves)
but when you lengthen a floor so it is a column - things change - allot of things
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
454tff
()
Date: March 20, 2018 11:23AM
the Golden Gate bridge had a concrete "reinforced" deck (now steel, see below), is supported every few car lengths
The weight of the original reinforced concrete deck and its supporting stringers was 166,397 tons (150,952,000 kg). The weight of the new orthotropic steel plate deck, its two inches of epoxy asphalt surfacing
the original deck was retrofitted as part of an earthquake proofing initiative for all building and infrastructure (california-wide we can say)
despite their saying the "deck is reinforced concrete suppored every few car lengths", we can see there is significant steel trussing
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
k4cdp
()
Date: March 20, 2018 11:24AM
my advice is "don't blink", and while you do that put your harness back on!
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
lcvud
()
Date: March 20, 2018 11:28AM
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
eyklw
()
Date: March 20, 2018 11:30AM
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
eycek
()
Date: March 21, 2018 12:36PM
that's impressive. i have to wonder though if i'd more enjoy a stroll over the golden gate or a daring gulp and a breath taking view!
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
fpvyg
()
Date: March 21, 2018 10:45PM
fpvyg
Re: Reston based American Society of Civil Engineers has blood on its hands
Posted by:
h4gww
()
Date: March 22, 2018 08:20PM
I'm specifically calling news of "a phone message of a crack" FAKE NEWS. There's millions of dollars of incentive for (the company) to submit false information / false witness.
The NTSB has not said the section with "the crack" was found or likely, nor have police verified they traced the call (NOTE: florida state has been busted in court before submitting false telephone evidence to the judge - that's to see on "forensic files").
NO ONE HAS COMMENTED ON THE ORIGINAL DESIGN, or why the suspenders were being put on last instead of first: WHICH I FIND SUSPICIOUS
The NTSB has not said the section with "the crack" was found or likely, nor have police verified they traced the call (NOTE: florida state has been busted in court before submitting false telephone evidence to the judge - that's to see on "forensic files").
NO ONE HAS COMMENTED ON THE ORIGINAL DESIGN, or why the suspenders were being put on last instead of first: WHICH I FIND SUSPICIOUS