http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/02/AR2006120201290.html

The best part of the article is where the mom is acting all distraught at the cops, like they forced the kids to jump. Classic.

Rodriguez's mother said that her son had been drinking beer with friends at the family's Woodbridge home in the 13300 block of Kurtz Road. He received a call from another friend asking him for a ride. Rodriguez borrowed the Nissan Pathfinder from a friend and left the house with a teenage boy who also lives at the house.

He is sixteen, the mom knows he is drinking at home, then he goes driving to pick up a friend. Now she is mad at the police?

The part of the story that I found most amusing was the part that said the boy had dropped out of school but was going to be "homeschooled." Yeah, right!

trickie

So sad... but rather than harp on the cops or the family, please let me mention my humble opinion regarding the bridges.

I think that ALL bridges should have chain link or something to that effect that you can see through but that nothing can jump over. Or for that matter, throw something over. Some cases in point.. I know a guy who was getting onto I-66 from Rt. 123. As he drove under one of those bridges (before daylight) somebody decided to throw some dirty paintbrush cleaner over the bridge which splashed all over the front of the truck (nice way to dispose of construction materials?).

Next, last year something spooked a small group of deer grazing in a patch of woods somewhere around here and they started running. They jumped over the edge and ended up dead and/or dying on the road below. The same thing happened at another bridge a year or two before. It was horrible.

Next, malicious idiots who make the news by tossing something off a bridge to maul the vehicle and/or driver passing under it.

Now the guy from yesterday.

All of it is senseless, no matter who is in the right or wrong.

In some places in Canada they DO put up see-through barriers to prevent all of these things happening. Of course they could never do something like that here without figuring first that it would cost 10 million dollars to do so.

There are so many things wrong with that story... Just on the surface is immigration, education, parenting, department policy, possible cover-up, and officer inaction while a kid is drowning with his hands cuffed behind his back - must have been a nice way to go. Sixty feet you pussy - save the motherfucker!

you jump sixty feet into near-freezing water dude, then we'll question the reaction of the cop.

that kid was wasted and he totally did something really stupid. I don't see how this wasn't something SO stupid, that the cop assessed the risk and decided he was better off not taking a massive risk.

-burpgun- Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are so many things wrong with that story...
> Just on the surface is immigration, education,
> parenting, department policy, possible cover-up,
> and officer inaction while a kid is drowning with
> his hands cuffed behind his back - must have been
> a nice way to go. Sixty feet you pussy - save the
> motherfucker!

Absolutely, let's blame the police here as usual! And if that doesn't work lets find a way to blame President Bush. After all, its the American way.

Unbelieveable...

It is the middle of the night, dark as hell and the cop is supposed to jump sixty feet into the dark to save this kid?

Even if the cop took off his gun belt he would still have been pulled down by the uniform, shoes and bullet proof vest. Not to mention the swift water that would have pulled them both under.

Its a sad statement to even think of placing the blame on the trooper.
Any sympathy for the other people on the road when the intoxicated kid was zooming along at 90 mph? He certainly had no concern for them, I have none for him.

I think some of us, dependent upon swimming strength, would have dropped the Sam Browne and kicked off the boots and gone for it - and clearly some of us wouldn't have...

And what the fuck's Bush got to do with anything!?! Kind of a sixty foot jump in itself there Einstein.

He was an avid soccer fan who loved to dance, she said.
Attachments:

"I think some of us, dependent upon swimming strength, would have dropped the Sam Browne and kicked off the boots and gone for it - and clearly some of us wouldn't have... "

Yeah those that tried would be dead the rest would be alive. I think one dead would be enough for the night. The hero stuff only works on tv. The current in that part of the river is very swift for boats, a human wouldnt have a chance. Ever wonder why someone who jumps in near Georgetown ends up in southern maryland?

I'll give you that - am entirely unfamiliar with what those dominant factors may have been...

Well I don't know what the laws are in Honduras but I have seen several parents from overseas that don't think it's a big deal that their kids drink. Remember in many other countries it is perfectly acceptable to drink at young ages and the article says, "who immigrated to the United States from Honduras 16 months ago"

As for how he got out of the car. It would be easy to get the seatbelt loose with your hands behind your back. Once that was done he may have done the handcuff Houdini; if you sit on the handcuffs you can then work them forward and pull them up over your legs... waalaa you are know handcuffed in front. Then reach for the door lock on the drivers side, open the passenger door and make your escape.

I would think if you landed right in the water and survived the intial shock of the freezing water you could siwm away doing some type of funky breast stroke. Of course you would of been caught eventually again. Maybe this kid did alot of cliff diving. 60 feet isn't that bad if you land like a pencil and not a pancake.

My guess is the officer went down to the side of the river if possible but couldn't see the kid at that point. I wouldn't expect the officer to jump with a bullet proof vest and fully loaded, nobody knows how deep the river is there, maybe it was three feet or there was a rock right below. The officer might of been a goner too.

FYI- I don't suggest you do the "handcuff houdini" if you are ever put in a police car, you will really piss the officer off! LOL

It wasnt that long ago a guy fell off the dock at Leesylvania Park and the undertow pulled him out into the river and drowned him just like that. I have lived here most my life and had no idea there was even an undertow in the river, I thought that stuff only happened at Ocean City.
Maybe a year ago a rowing coach fell off his boat north of Alexandria and his body was found way south of the wilson bridge.

“Local Police Find New Way to Kill Criminal”.. whoever thought that one up would be a superb writer for one of the area’s more popular newspapers.

>that kid was wasted and he totally did something really stupid. I don't see how this wasn't something SO stupid, that the cop assessed the risk and decided he was better off not taking a massive risk.

And nobody here has ever done something really stupid in their lives? Nobody here has ever been “that wasted” and drove home that way?

darwin: 1    illegal immigrant: 0

"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

I am sure there are those on here who have been drunk and still driven. But how many were caught and then tried to escape from the police? It is a bad move, the cops will catch up to you one way or the other. It is never a good idea to run from the police, it pisses them off.

Plus according to the report he was doing 90mph, what better way to draw attention to yourself in the first place?

Really! 90 mph at 3:20am in the morning on I95 after drinking. Why not just put a big f'n flashing sign on your car that says "Drunk-Pull me over."

Nobody here has ever been “that wasted” and drove home that way?

I've driven like that, back in the old days when I wasn't too smart. But I never ever ran from police and never risked plunging off a bridge. That's crazy shit, I feel bad for that dude's family. But it's still his fault for jumping.

Tim45 Wrote:
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> I am sure there are those on here who have been
> drunk and still driven.

Lasuena Wrote:
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> Nobody here has ever been
> “that wasted” and drove home that way?

i have never done such and i never will. why? it's simple, im not a fucking retard.

---

Jester Wrote:
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> Well I don't know what the laws are in Honduras
> but I have seen several parents from overseas
> that don't think it's a big deal that their kids
> drink.

yeah... but drinking and driving is illegal and so is speeding like hell. immigrated illegally but look who has the last laugh now!

---

Lasuena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that ALL bridges should have chain link or
> something to that effect that you can see through
> but that nothing can jump over.

why stop at bridges? let's fence off the roads completely so you can only go across a street at a crosswalk when the door open to let you cross! we cant have people being idiots and walking across the middle of a busy street in all dark clothing at 2am!


> Next, last year something spooked a small group of
> deer grazing in a patch of woods somewhere around
> here and they started running. They jumped over
> the edge and ended up dead and/or dying on the
> road below. The same thing happened at another
> bridge a year or two before.

LOL! that's fucking hilarious.


> In some places in Canada they DO put up
> see-through barriers to prevent all of these
> things happening.

fuck them, they also censure.


> Of course they could never do
> something like that here without figuring first
> that it would cost 10 million dollars to do so.

i would rather 10 million dollars go elsewhere.

---

-burpgun-,
   i think it's been made quite clear by others that it's a fucking stupid idea to jump in a freezing river with a strong current at 3am when you cant even see the dude. but you know... feel free to jump in after fool in the middle of the night and you know... drown because that is what would happen.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Story is sad. Very sad. Trooper's handcuffs are probably rusted and can't be used again. $30.00 down the drain (or river).

>> Next, last year something spooked a small group of
> deer grazing in a patch of woods somewhere around
> here and they started running. They jumped over
> the edge and ended up dead and/or dying on the
> road below. The same thing happened at another
> bridge a year or two before.

>LOL! that's fucking hilarious.

Another animal hater, typical NVA.


>why stop at bridges? let's fence off the roads completely so you can only go across a street at a crosswalk when the door open to let you cross! we cant have people being idiots and walking across the middle of a busy street in all dark clothing at 2am!

With all the other ridiculous things that are done to prevent lawsuits, sounds good to me. The last good one I saw was in a shopping mall, on the strollers you can borrow. At the back of the stroller was a bag to put your purchases in. Sign on it said not to put your kid in there.


>> Of course they could never do
> something like that here without figuring first
> that it would cost 10 million dollars to do so.

>i would rather 10 million dollars go elsewhere.

You missed the point. Obviously to get anything done around here it costs 10 million dollars to study it, and 10 million more dollars to do it, no matter how mundane - unless it is building some more townhouses, condos, or jack-in-the-box buildings.

Lasuena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another animal hater, typical NVA.

i dont hate animals... i like animals but like people, when they do stupid things, you just have to laugh at them sometimes.


> With all the other ridiculous things that are done
> to prevent lawsuits, sounds good to me. The last
> good one I saw was in a shopping mall, on the
> strollers you can borrow. At the back of the
> stroller was a bag to put your purchases in. Sign
> on it said not to put your kid in there.

dont underestimate the stupidity of the general public. somehow they feel that it must be someone else's fault, so if it's not a law, damn right there is a warning sticker.


> >i would rather 10 million dollars go elsewhere.
>
> You missed the point. Obviously to get anything
> done around here it costs 10 million dollars to
> study it, and 10 million more dollars to do it, no
> matter how mundane - unless it is building some
> more townhouses, condos, or jack-in-the-box
> buildings.

no, i did get your point... but i know what you said is true. thus, i would still want the money to go elsewhere. if they dont quibble over every stupid detail that doesnt have "HERE, HAVE SOME MONEY!" written in the project outline, what would they do all day?!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

"Next, last year something spooked a small group of deer grazing in a patch of woods somewhere around here and they started running. They jumped over the edge and ended up dead and/or dying on the road below. The same thing happened at another bridge a year or two before. It was horrible."

Deer are really stupid animals. Once they start running, they don't stop for anything.

That's very true. A friend of mine was driving to work in the morning and he noticed a deer running across a field and it looked like it was heading his way. It cross about a football field of wild open space and smacked right ran into his car. He said "I even slowed down so it could cross and it still hit my car."

thats wahat I call a frozen margharita

A 16-year-old kid was busted for DUI (he shouldn't have been drinking in the first place). The kid was in the country illegally and came from a country where people don't trust the cops. He was most likely too drunk to exercise good judgement, hence he tried to make a run for it by jumping from a bridge into a river while handcuffed.

It seems to me there is are two or three people responsible here: the kid and his parent(s). The cops were doing their job. The kid was an idiot for trying to escape and the parents were idiots for not supervising their kid better.

It pisses me off that these people come into this country illegally, continue to break our laws, and then blame OUR police for THEIR stupid kid jumping to his own death.

I hope this doesn't turn into one of those million dollar lawsuits where the State of VA has to pay his parents.

Jester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope this doesn't turn into one of those million
> dollar lawsuits where the State of VA has to pay
> his parents.


Even if the cop didn't follow every procedure, the kid took it upon himself to get out of the car and jump off of the bridge. That isn't the fault of the cop. I would hope the State would fight such a ridiculous lawsuit.

"Local Police Find New Way to Kill Criminal"

There are two mistakes with this sentence. First, it was VA State Patrol. Do they count as "local?" Next, the kid killed himself.

You can debate if the kid was an actual criminal. Sounds like it to me, though.

I read where the mom felt bad taking away his cellphone after he was arrested for riding in a stolen car. She also allowed the kid to drop out of school and drink beer in his room. I realize this woman is busy working, etc, but at the same time it sounds like she and his step father enabled this guy by lightly admonishing him while he was becoming a felon.

I don't believe for a second that the kid knew he was over water. Jump over a jersey barrier just about anywhere and you hit the ground on the other side and RUN. Plus, it was dark, right?

Even a drunken beaner knows jumping into the Occoquan River handcuffed is SUICIDE.

Unless that was his intent.

According to WRC online the kid was doing 95 mph. He obviously didnt give a shit about the danger he posed to other people on the road. I think once they get back some results on alcohol and maybe drugs we would have an even better idea of what was going on.

Anybody see that episode of cops where the guy jumps over the barrier and the cop goes right after him? The perp ran, hopped a fence and was gone. The cameraman looks over the edge and the cop is down there knocked out cold. I'm sure they got the guy later.

Fence the bridges & roadways? Why don't we take that 10 million, ok be realistic and make it Billion (we have lots of roads & bridges) and FENCE THE FUCKING BORDER!

"who immigrated to the United States from Honduras 16 months ago"

In my book you need a visa and a passport to immigrate into the country. When you sneak in, in the back of a van that isn't immigration that is just one more illegal to suck the system dry.

This "poor woman", left her kids with their sister for 3 years. If she had been a real mother she would have been in the country looking after them her self until her husband could have paid off the smuggler to bring them over. Instead she is living the good life in the US while her kids are running the streets in another country.

Can you say Gang Banger? They wonder what happened to the kid. They left him to fend for himself in Honduras. He got taken into a gang then just fell right in with them again when he got here. He was right at home. There was no controlling him after that.

And as far as the trooper jumping in after him. The only reason the trooper is alive today is because he stayed on the bridge. The State Police just burried one trooper last week, They don't need to make it two in two weeks. Good job by the trooper.

So those pointing fingers, make sure you point them at the kid and his parents where it belongs. And as far as all the other immigrats, if they were as vocal in their own country as they are here they could have the Hounduras Dream instead of wanting the American Dream.

FENCE BORDERS, NOT BRIDGES

>A 16-year-old kid was busted for DUI (he shouldn't have been drinking in the first place). The kid was in the country illegally and came from a country where people don't trust the cops.

Of course he shouldn't have been drinking in the first place, but again, how many people can say with absolute truth that they have never ever driven while under the influence?? I'm sure some haven't, but would bet that some have.

>Fence the bridges & roadways? Why don't we take that 10 million, ok be realistic and make it Billion (we have lots of roads & bridges) and FENCE THE FUCKING BORDER

Didn't the President just approve doing this?

>"who immigrated to the United States from Honduras 16 months ago"

>In my book you need a visa and a passport to immigrate into the country. When you sneak in, in the back of a van that isn't immigration that is just one more illegal to suck the system dry.

I read several articles about this, but didn't see the words "illegally immigrated" anywhere. I also didn't see anything about sneaking in, in the back of a van, or anything about HOW he got into the country. Please show me where that is.

I'm glad that the cops are doing their jobs and getting people off the road, especially the drunks, and the ones who blatantly break the law. It must be an awful job, because when you do it, everyone hates your guts.

.
Attachments:

pgens,
   yes, God forbid we actual prevent illegal activities. i mean putting a regulator on a car so it cant exceed 120MPH is just wrong. we might as well just paint swastikas on every car.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Pgens that was hilarious. I love Hitler.

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pgens,
>    yes, God forbid we actual
> prevent illegal activities. i mean putting a
> regulator on a car so it cant exceed 120MPH is
> just wrong. we might as well just paint swastikas
> on every car.

Gravis, you should be doing more of this:



and less of this

-burpgun- Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pgens that was hilarious. I love Hitler.


Nothing says "love" like Hitler.

Lasuena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
more illegal to suck the system dry.
>
> I read several articles about this, but didn't see
> the words "illegally immigrated" anywhere. I also
> didn't see anything about sneaking in, in the back
> of a van, or anything about HOW he got into the
> country. Please show me where that is.
>


Apparently you missed the part about how they lost their apartment because they didn't have any papers to prove their citizenship.

As for the rest of it, the kid was 16 years-old! His mom let him drink beer at home until he was drunk! WTF is that? Obviously she bought the beer and didn't care if he drank it. Where the f--k is the mom's responsibility in all of this????

It's a tragedy for this family, but it doesn't mean it is the cop's fault the dumb kid did this to himself. What the hell was the cop supposed to do? Jump 60 feet into the Occoquan after the guy???

Item of possible interest for the regulars: my posts have evidently irritated someone to such a degree that they have registered my handle as their own, and feverishly re-registered each subsequent incarnation I create. So thoughts offered by a "burpgun" variation may not reflect those of the original owner of that moniker. And Hitler? Can take him or leave him - much like the burpgun impostor, we all play our role; some good, some evil, some large, some small...

* This post may prompt a similar post by the usurper once he rushes to register whatever variant I'm about to use, forsaking all the many important things occurring in the obvious full cup of a life he's blessed with. The giveaway will probably involve an attempt at eloquence that doesn't quite meet the established burpgun standard, in which case I wish him luck, or a strict economy of words, as demonstrated by his post above. Your move schmuck...

duh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't believe for a second that the kid knew he
> was over water. Jump over a jersey barrier just
> about anywhere and you hit the ground on the other
> side and RUN. Plus, it was dark, right?
>
> Even a drunken beaner knows jumping into the
> Occoquan River handcuffed is SUICIDE.

I wouldent quite say they know that the Occoquan is suicide, but some rivers yes. Now 60, if you dont land right will break your legs and you will die if you hit headfirst. But think about it next time ya go over a bridge next time and its dark. Can you see the water? The only clue to me would be cement road instead of asphalt, but I am sure a Houdurenian might not know that.

Now 60, if you dont land right will break your legs

When I was a teenager we used to jump off a 70 foot ledge into an old abandoned slate quarry filled with water. You could actually feel your knees bend as you were hitting the water, and you probably plunged at least 15-20 feet under the surface. It sorta hurt your feet, and if you didn't land exactly vertical, it felt like you got smacked really hard in the side, arms, etc. Anyone who thinks the cop should've jumped in to save him is seriously misguided...that water is probably less than 10 feet deep, and you'd probably smack the bottom. I also remember that the impact and rush of falling that far were sorta disorienting when you go under, I can't imagine what that would be like in pitch black freezing cold water- chances are you might not even be able to find you way back to the surface.

The kid is at fault and I wouldn't expect the cop to jump in after him.

However, you have a big marina right there. It would be interesting to find out what the cop did or didn't do after the fact in order to get help to the idiot before he drowned.

>Lasuena
>I read several articles about this, but didn't see the words "illegally immigrated" anywhere. I also didn't see anything about sneaking in, in the back of a van, or anything about HOW he got into the country. Please show me where that is.




No, you didn't see "illegally immigrated" you have to read between the lines. The back of the van was interpretation. Simply because most of them come in hiding in the back of a truck or van. But here it is in black & white.

Washington Post, December 4th.
"Just 15 months ago, he arrived from Honduras, joyfully reuniting with the mother he hadn't seen since 2002. "Imagine what that was like!" Rodriguez said."

"Rodriguez moved to Northern Virginia in 2002 after losing her job in the customs office in San Pedro Sula, Honduras. Her second husband, Gilton Acosta, had arrived in the United States a year earlier and was working construction.
(Doesn't say if they came in legally or illegally but if I had to guess.)

"I thought I'd work for a while and go back. Because my children are there," Rodriguez recalled."

"She left Rodger, then 11, with her three daughters, the eldest of whom was 21."

"Last year, she arranged for a smuggler to bring Rodger across the Mexican border, accompanied by her husband's 26-year-old sister."

If you still missed the finer points I will break it down for you.

She left her kids in another country for 3 years, then brings one of the 4 of them over here. Hence, there are 3 more waiting for their tickets to the land of golden streets and free health care.

She was going to work for a bit and go back. Guess it was kind of hard to go back once she got here, even for her kids. I know if the place I lived so so bad that I wanted out I sure wouldn't leave and not take my kids.

Smuggler is not a new airline competing with Jet Blue. Smuggler means someone that they paid thousands of dollars to to "sneak" the kid in across the Mexican border.

And for those who compared me to Hitler. Hitler would just round them all up, strip them of their dignity and any personal belonging then gas them.

I do believe that every one should have a chance come to this country and make a better life for themselves and their families. This country is made up of immigrants. But the immigrants of yesterday came here with the idea of becoming Americans, getting jobs, paying taxes and fitting into the American way of life. The immigrants of today want to come here, not learn to speak English, take advantage of the system, send a lot of the money they make back to the home country and want to keep their identity with the country they came from while sucking our system and economy dry.

It's not easy to get to the marina, the closest one is on the PW side, from 95 northbound. It'd be about a 10 minute drive, at least to get down there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2006 08:48PM by mad max, JD.

mad max, JD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not easy to get to the marina, the closest
> one is on the PW side, from 95 northbound. It'd
> be about a 10 minute drive, at least to get down
> there.


I'm not saying the cop could have rescued the kid. But did he make an effort? Any effort...from checking on the marina to calling it into the Virginia Highway Patrol? Or did he just stand there and watch the kid drown?

Jester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope this doesn't turn into one of those million
> dollar lawsuits where the State of VA has to pay
> his parents.


My understanding is that Virginia is one of a handful of states where the state is liable in the event that a person in custody is injured or killed. While it may not be the best source of information, I heard this on the Chris Core radio show on Tuesday morning.

If this is true, the mother will get a nice settlement before being deported, but with more than enough money to get her entire family back to the US of A.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> duh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't believe for a second that the kid knew
> he
> > was over water. Jump over a jersey barrier
> just
> > about anywhere and you hit the ground on the
> other
> > side and RUN. Plus, it was dark, right?
> >
> > Even a drunken beaner knows jumping into the
> > Occoquan River handcuffed is SUICIDE.
>
> I wouldent quite say they know that the Occoquan
> is suicide, but some rivers yes. Now 60, if you
> dont land right will break your legs and you will
> die if you hit headfirst. But think about it next
> time ya go over a bridge next time and its dark.
> Can you see the water? The only clue to me would
> be cement road instead of asphalt, but I am sure a
> Houdurenian might not know that.


My point was that jumping into ANY river handcuffed is suicide. Use of one's arms is very helpful when attempting to swim, I would think.

I wondered what was going on the other night. I was driving down that section of road and saw 3 state troopers holding signs above their heads with numbers on them. Couldn't figure out what it was. If I remember right there was a 3, a 2 and a 2.5. Guess the low score was poor form combined with too large of a splash.

Lester - There is no provision in any law or doctrine that automatically makes the custodial agency (in this case Virginia State Police) liable for a custodial death. It will only be an issue if somone can prove "Deliberate Indifference" on the part of the officer, which would prove difficult. No one could expect the trooper to follow suit and do a full gainer into the water after the guy.

I am not trying to argue what happened that night, but there is a good possibility that the kid had no idea he was not just jumping over a jersey wall. It has happened to cops as well. A cop in Ft. Lauderdale officer died last year almost the same way - check out http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=17902. He had no idea that it was a drop on the other side. I would suggest that the kid was merely trying to get away, and did not realize that he was jumping to almost certain death.

Just my .02

IM--110 FEET? (from your link) thats a lot.

Duh, swimming would be difficult but one can still tread water with just feet. However, wearing shoes would make it harder

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IM--110 FEET? (from your link) thats a lot.
>
> Duh, swimming would be difficult but one can still
> tread water with just feet. However, wearing shoes
> would make it harder


Sure, but keep in mind that jumping into 74 degree water from the side of a pool is a lot different than hitting 45 degree water from 100+ feet up.

.

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pgens,
>    yes, God forbid we actual
> prevent illegal activities. i mean putting a
> regulator on a car so it cant exceed 120MPH is
> just wrong. we might as well just paint swastikas
> on every car.


It should be set to 45mph and those caught tampering with the government mandated throttle regulators should be charged with felonies for recklessly and needlessly endangering human life for the sake of petty convenience. the savings arent just limited to tens of thousands of lives and limbs either, billions of gallons of fuel will be saved and billions of tons of CO2 will be kept out of the atmosphere. If the amish dont need to go a mile a minute, no one does.
Attachments: