Over the weekend I was on my way to visit my dad, driving on Vale Road in Vienna, and was getting tailgated real bad by a black car. It was really uncomfortable and I kept feeling something was wrong with the whole situation. And we kept going faster. Then the car made a very sharp turn into a side road, I braked hard (no one else on the road) to see if he had any markings on the back of it, and went right over a hill with 2 police waiting to issue speeding tickets. I did not get stopped or ticketed because I had braked but the whole thing still has me bugged and wondering. We were just staring at each other as I drove by. I keep wondering if it was a cop with nothing to do, saw a kid in a sporty car on an empty road headed to a speed trap, and decided to play around (all my hypothesis).

That is my drive. So I have a question:

Do I have the right to stand on the side of the road with a sign with arrow pointing at the police, saying "POLICE"?

My dad's house is close by and I don't mind standing there for a few hours next time, chatting on the phone and holding the sign, if I have the right.

I'm sure they could hit you for obstruction of justice or something.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

... sounds like this thread might be helpful, relating to flashing lights to warn on-coming drivers about a speed trap: http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/114333/page-1.html

You have to watch out for those Vienna cops.

Very bored, nothing to do = Lots of ticketing for rolling stops and 3 mph over the speed limit.


For the OP's question, yeah it would be like flashing your lights or tapping the brake lights.

canderson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Over the weekend I was on my way to visit my dad,
> driving on Vale Road in Vienna, and was getting
> tailgated real bad by a black car. It was really
> uncomfortable and I kept feeling something was
> wrong with the whole situation. And we kept going
> faster. Then the car made a very sharp turn into
> a side road, I braked hard (no one else on the
> road) to see if he had any markings on the back of
> it, and went right over a hill with 2 police
> waiting to issue speeding tickets. I did not get
> stopped or ticketed because I had braked but the
> whole thing still has me bugged and wondering. We
> were just staring at each other as I drove by. I
> keep wondering if it was a cop with nothing to do,
> saw a kid in a sporty car on an empty road headed
> to a speed trap, and decided to play around (all
> my hypothesis).
>
> That is my drive. So I have a question:
>
> Do I have the right to stand on the side of the
> road with a sign with arrow pointing at the
> police, saying "POLICE"?
>
> My dad's house is close by and I don't mind
> standing there for a few hours next time, chatting
> on the phone and holding the sign, if I have the
> right.


sure stand out there all day, then go out and get a life.

It would definitely be illegal. But why would you need to stand around with the sign? Just post it up somewhere and take off...

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have to watch out for those Vienna cops.
>
> Very bored, nothing to do = Lots of ticketing for
> rolling stops and 3 mph over the speed limit.
>
>
> For the OP's question, yeah it would be like
> flashing your lights or tapping the brake lights.


Vale Road is FCPD not VPD.

And why were you speeding up if you had someone tailgaiting you badly? Let off the gas (don't brake suddenly, if he's on the phone or texting he'll just hit you) until you are at the speed limit and they will usually pass. If that doesn't work, you can go lower, just don't hit 15-under which is a reckless ticket.

If it is during the day, turn your lights on and off. It will make your tail lights blink and it simulates braking without actually doing it.

ITRADE Wrote:
>
> Vale Road is FCPD not VPD.

Most of it is FCPD, but Vale does cross over the Vienna city limit (near Flint Hill Rd) of Vienna, and I've seen VPD with radar on Vale several times.

Oops, pardon the redundancy in the last post.

I've found that turning on my hazard lights normally gets the tailgaters attention. Unless their being jerks, and some are, the tailgater normally backs off.

ITRADE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Vale Road is FCPD not VPD.


O RLY?




-..SBS-. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Most of it is FCPD, but Vale does cross over the Vienna city limit (near Flint Hill Rd) of Vienna, and I've seen VPD with radar on Vale several times.


Yeah, I have seen Vienna police on Vale on their motorcycles using their LIDAR, and Vienna PD love to hang out right at their town limits. I see them pull people over all the time on Nutley near the metro.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've found that turning on my hazard lights
> normally gets the tailgaters attention. Unless
> their being jerks, and some are, the tailgater
> normally backs off.

I was told once (I don't know if it is true) that driving a passenger vehicle with hazard lights on is a moving violation in VA so I don't do that.

Yes, improper use of hazard lights is the charge.

Blessed are the murderous.

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ITRADE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Vale Road is FCPD not VPD.
>
>
> O RLY?
>
>
>
>
> -..SBS-. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> Most of it is FCPD, but Vale does cross over the
> Vienna city limit (near Flint Hill Rd) of Vienna,
> and I've seen VPD with radar on Vale several
> times.
>
>
> Yeah, I have seen Vienna police on Vale on their
> motorcycles using their LIDAR, and Vienna PD love
> to hang out right at their town limits. I see them
> pull people over all the time on Nutley near the
> metro.


Not possible. Vale becomes Malcolm Road at the Vienna township limits with the exception of two houses at abut the TOV/FFX County line and were grandfathered into Vienna Township under the FFX County road numbering system. This was done as a trade to allow FFX County to take control of Peterson Lane Park.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 02:36PM by ITRADE.

ITRADE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> Not possible.
Attachments:

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure they could hit you for obstruction of justice or something.


No, they can't.

"Obstruction" requires that you physically obstruct a police officer (we're talking about laying hands on them or such - a physical assault).

See the thread about flashing lights for more information.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 03:51PM by Spacy.

Harry Tuttle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would definitely be illegal.

Citation please?

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I've found that turning on my hazard lights normally gets the tailgaters attention. Unless their being jerks, and some are, the tailgater
normally backs off.< <
>
> I was told once (I don't know if it is true) that driving a passenger vehicle with hazard lights on is a moving violation in VA so I don't do that.<

Whatever could be the charge, it is a proper use of the hazard lights: alerting other drivers to a dangerous situation.

Common error on drivers' part but Pgens and the others are right.

example http://www.googobits.com/articles/p4-2790-driving-safely-in-extreme-rain.html

----------------
Use hazard lights only when needed

Many drivers use hazard lights wrongly, switching them on to show other drivers that road conditions are hazardous. Most do this because the drivers ahead are doing it. This is a mistake, because hazard lights can be very distracting and cause glare that limits your vision and confuses drivers ahead and behind you. Only use hazard lights to warn other drivers that your vehicle is, or is about to become, a road hazard – engine is overheating, brakes are faulty, or your wipers are defective – and that you are slowing down to stop. You should also use it when you are in an emergency – feeling sick or rushing someone to a hospital – or when the car ahead of you has an accident and you want to warn other cars behind you. Otherwise, don’t add to the confusion.

Also when hazard lights are on turn signals do not work on most vehicles because they are part of the hazard light blinking process. Hazard lights are only for parked vehicles or for drivers just discovering a danger and are pulling over.

Spacy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Citation please?

I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for but I am sure they would come up with something to charge you with...

Here are some weak possibilities
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+33.1-369+704840
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+46.2-831+705025
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+18.2-409+705179
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+33.1-356+704840

in_the_know Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also when hazard lights are on turn signals do not
> work on most vehicles because they are part of the
> hazard light blinking process. Hazard lights are
> only for parked vehicles or for drivers just
> discovering a danger and are pulling over.

Don't think so. Reference signs that advise drivers in vehicles traveling significantly below the posted speed limits to use their hazard lights.

Hopefully this clears it up.

§ 46.2-1040. Hazard lights.

Motor vehicles, trailers, and semitrailers, when temporarily stopped on the traveled or paved portion of the highway so as to create a traffic hazard, shall flash all four turn signals simultaneously to signal approaching motorists of the existing hazard whenever such vehicle is equipped with a device which will cause the four turn signals to flash simultaneously. All four turn signals may be flashed simultaneously on a vehicle slowed or stopped at the scene of a traffic hazard, when traveling as part of a funeral procession, or when traveling at a speed of thirty miles per hour or less. Except for vehicles traveling as part of a funeral procession, all four turn signals shall not be flashed simultaneously while the vehicle is traveling faster than thirty miles per hour.

And on all the cars I own the turn signals are what are blinking when hazard lights are turned on... I hadn't thought of that and it was a good point to make.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 06:28PM by pgens.

ITRADE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Not possible. Vale becomes Malcolm Road at the
> Vienna township limits with the exception of two
> houses at abut the TOV/FFX County line and were
> grandfathered into Vienna Township under the FFX
> County road numbering system. This was done as a
> trade to allow FFX County to take control of
> Peterson Lane Park.

I'll be sure to refer the VPD officers to you the next time they are set up on Vale Rd. between Flint Hill and Hunter Mill Roads.

Harry Tuttle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spacy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Citation please?
>
> I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for but
> I am sure they would come up with something to
> charge you with...

And the magistrate will laugh them away, and then you will
sue their asses off for false arrest and other things.
As I suggested, read my posts towards the end of the rather
similar "flashing your headlights at speed traps" thread.

I'm no lawyer, but here's what I think of the laws you found:

> Here are some weak possibilities

> http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+33.1-369+704840

Yes, this is very weak. I suppose you could construct a sign that
is a visual hazard by violating those rules (eg. making it appear
to be a traffic light, or hang over the road so you can't see
anything else, etc.) and get into trouble over that.
This has nothing to do with the situation described.

> http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+46.2-831+705025

This forbids erecting commercial signs, or signs that look like
official traffic signs, on highways. This has nothing to do with
the situation described.

> http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+18.2-409+705179

You can't tell from that paragraph, but it is unquestionably held
that what they are referring to is physically assaulting an officer,
such as when resisting arrest. (Resisting covers other things like
running away, though.) If your friend is being handcuffed and you
jump between him and the officer and say "No way you're doing that!",
that's the kind of "obstruction" they are talking about.
This has nothing to do with the situation described.

It is a common misconception that "obstruction" in this passage
means more abstract things. There are other laws for that, but
they don't tend to trump the kind of free speech we're talking about.
Flashing headlights is another common example of something that is
not illegal (at least in Virginia).

> http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+33.1-356+704840

This is about licensing "Persons engaged in the business of outdoor
advertising" and has nothing to do with non-commercial signs.
This has nothing to do with the situation described.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 10:14PM by Spacy.

maybe it would be considered interfering with police investigation instead of obstruction of justice?

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And why were you speeding up if you had someone
> tailgaiting you badly? Let off the gas (don't
> brake suddenly, if he's on the phone or texting
> he'll just hit you) until you are at the speed
> limit and they will usually pass. If that doesn't
> work, you can go lower, just don't hit 15-under
> which is a reckless ticket.
>
> If it is during the day, turn your lights on and
> off. It will make your tail lights blink and it
> simulates braking without actually doing it.


Turning on your hazards, at least at night, really seems to flounder a tailgater. I guess they don't know what to think of it, plus flashing lights are a distraction and it always seems make a tailgater back off.

Yes, even a speeder occassionaly has a tailgater.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Oh yeah, I forgot the two other tactics I use.

Downshift 2 gears if the guy isn't extremely close, and it will usually scare him enough to back off completely. When he doesn't see brake lights but finds himself closing on your really quickly, he'll realize he can't properly predict when to hit his own brakes.

Or, if he's really close, ride your brake. Just barely tap and hold the brake pedal enough so that your lights go on, but not enough to actually engage your brakes. If he keeps up on your ass, just use your left foot to hold the brake pedal at the point where your lights go on but you don't engage the brakes, for a really long time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have to watch out for those Vienna cops.
>
> Very bored, nothing to do = Lots of ticketing for
> rolling stops and 3 mph over the speed limit.
>
>
> For the OP's question, yeah it would be like
> flashing your lights or tapping the brake lights.


As ridiculous as it sounds, that's not uncommon in certain small towns, ESPECIALLY in rural areas. I ran into a similar situation in PA once, and I was stopped for "Running a Stop Sign", even though I sat at the stop sign for about 20 seconds attempting to figure out which direction to go from there (On some backwoods road around 11:00 PM, and dark as pitch). The officer even made a comment about: "You were going so fast, I knew you wouldn't stop", even though the entire time I was driving 6 MPH below the Speed Limit (39 MPH in a 45 MPH zone, due to my attempt at finding the proper route back). It was an obvious trap, and upon talking to locals of the town, I found out that most of them hate the Chief of Police because he randomly puts up stop signs and road blocks, all to effect his "Ticket Baiting" scheme. In court, I even caught the officer in a lie when he stated the wrong number of stop signs present, because he didn't realize that I had photographs which I then displayed to the judge. Either he lied, or the damn Chief is so crazy with his placements, that even his Officers remain clueless (The cop who cited me was the youngest in the small department, and he was a nice fellow, but he obviously erred).

Anyways, watch out for those traps, and even if you feel wronged, don't argue the point on the side of the road.

As for this area, in Herndon I remember a family member of mine was pulled over 30 years ago for going 1-2 MPH above the limit on Herndon Pkway. That place used to be notorious for speed traps. The cop didn't cite though, because that small of a difference won't hold up in court.

I bet you could hold a sign that says;
"If I were a cop...I'd be over this hill"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2015 09:42AM by WingNut.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would a sign that said, SLOW DOWN be differnt than
> one that explicitly warned of police?

That sounds riskier to me. Seems more like pretending
to be a traffic control device, rather than a free speech.

Spacy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Would a sign that said, SLOW DOWN be differnt
> than
> > one that explicitly warned of police?
>
> That sounds riskier to me. Seems more like
> pretending
> to be a traffic control device, rather than a free
> speech.

Years ago, there was a street in Bethesda where I saw signs that said "SLOW DOWN!" and "25 IS FAST ENOUGH!" in someone's front yard (on a road that was 35, mind you) -- Some dumb fuck ultra-liberal couple must have moved in before having kids and didn't care about the double yellow line road out front, but became scared witless once they decided to pop a little spawn out.

Cuz, ya know, it's for the children.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

-,SBS..- Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ITRADE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Not possible. Vale becomes Malcolm Road at the
> > Vienna township limits with the exception of
> two
> > houses at abut the TOV/FFX County line and were
> > grandfathered into Vienna Township under the
> FFX
> > County road numbering system. This was done as
> a
> > trade to allow FFX County to take control of
> > Peterson Lane Park.
>
> I'll be sure to refer the VPD officers to you the
> next time they are set up on Vale Rd. between
> Flint Hill and Hunter Mill Roads.


Feel free. But that is not TOV jurisdiction.

And I have NEVER seen a VPD unit there. I see FCPD units all the time at the intersection of Flint Hill and Vale and at the entrants to St. Marks Church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2009 09:51AM by ITRADE.

try a sign that says "Local Speed limit strictly enforced by Police"

Thanks all! One can learn a lot on this website.

Based on this and that other thread, it appears they have a lot leeway and can easily dole out some kind of a punishment, but because they'd like to not because holding a sign is not allowed.

I go there once a week and had never seen police on that road before but I'll try something next time. I will post if they are Fairfax County or Vienna police.

I wonder if ThePackLeader would weigh-in on the legality of holding signs that warn motorists of speeding traps..

\



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2015 11:06PM by WingNut.

Well, was obvious they would fight back and unfairly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165792/Natalie-Plummer-arrested-holding-sign-warning-drivers-police-speed-trap.html

Even if there is no specific law or charges that are relevant enough to get a conviction, the simple act of ticketing you and making you deal with it has some deterrent value.

I have gotten completely bullshit tickets where the cop either never submitted the ticket or didn't show up for it because they knew they would lose. I still had to miss a day of work to show up in court and deal with it. It wouldn't be hard to consider the lost pay as an indirect fine and the time lost as jail.

DO NOT GET IN THE WAY OF THEIR REVENUE-GENERATING ACTIVITIES. Do not make it hard for them to show they're doing a good job by writing many tickets. The police might not appreciate that, during non-emergency times, their "protect and serve" job has become "make money", but they're stuck doing it.


To the OP - if their speed trap was old and well-known, maybe they needed to scare up a speeder so that they would be operating their trap at a net operating profit.

yeah.............it's revenue generating. That's the reason the cops are on two lane Vale Road where ANY pull over could result in injury or death from another speeding driver.

If you bother to use the grey in between yr ears, you'd know they set up speed traps when RESIDENTS COMPLAIN TO THEM ABOUT SPEEDING!!!!

@canderson - um, that was Texas. And it's been THREE FUCKING YEARS! C'mon, noww..................

Why would anybody even consider doing this?

If I see a speed trap, I call my wife and warn her. As for the other million or so self-absorbed cocksuckers around here, I hope they get a ticket or two or three. It is impossible for me to care less what happens to the rotten bastards.

Maybe we could use google maps and a mobile app to report speed traps? I personally do not have any of these skills, but it seems like a combination of existing tools rather than building something from scratch.

BTW, another hot spot is Fox Mill Road between Lawyers and Vale. I see them running traps at least once per week. When I drive the speed limit through there, I get tailgaters on me like I'm doing half the speed limit in the leftmost lane. I think I'll pull over and let them by. If just one of those pricks gets a ticket, it will be worth it.

This came up somewhere in court recently...court ruled that free speech trumped whatever right the cops had to operate without being revealed. Not saying it will stand up in court here, but that is what I know. I am too lazy to look up exactly where this happened, but the guy was pulled for flashing his lights to warn oncoming motorists of a speed trap.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/23/florida-judge-rules-flashing-lights-for-speed-trap-warning-is-co/

Okay, I got un-lazy. Again, this is FL not VA, but at least there is some precedent somewhere.