At the intersection of Hunter Mill Road and Sunrise Valley, up near the toll road entrance, there is both a stop light and a yield sign. As you approach the intersection going north on Hunter Mill Road and want to turn right (to get up to the toll road and stay on Hunter Mill Road), if the red light is on, do you have to stop before you do a right turn, or can you just roll through the yield sign if no cars are coming from opposite direction (turning left to get on the road)?

I called the police station and a full stop is required. The red stop light takes precedence. Always. So, since I don't like getting tickets, I stop. I have almost been rear-ended, get honked at, and fingered more than once. Everybody just rolls right through the red stop light/yield sign at full speed.

FULL STOP is always required at a RED LIGHT or STOP SIGN before proceeding (or making a right turn on red). The Yield sign makes no sense unless they want you to yield to incoming traffic when your light is green OR making a right turn on Red after your stop.

Johnny Taco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FULL STOP is always required at a RED LIGHT or
> STOP SIGN before proceeding (or making a right
> turn on red). The Yield sign makes no sense
> unless they want you to yield to incoming traffic
> when your light is green OR making a right turn on
> Red after your stop.

This is correct. That yield sign, which requires drivers making a right turn into the Toll Road entrance to give right-of-way to drivers making a left turn into the Toll Road entrance from the South-bound turning lane, is operative when the light is green.

If the light is red you must stop.

After the stop you may do a right turn on red, and if there is other traffic you must yield to them.

If the light is green you may proceed without a stop, but if there is other traffic you must yield once again.

If you are being fingered, and possibly rear ended at that intersection you may want to consider altering you travel route.

Thanks to all. I actually have altered my travel plans sometimes. I also take a long time to slow down at the light, so that if I do get rear-ended it won't be at 45 mph, which is how fast the cars behind me are going.

To quote superman...

"It seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? But that's why good is hard. Bad is always easy. "

You should do what is right and get a camera installed, so when you get in an accident you can explain in court how the person that hit you is so dumb they couldn't understand what a red light means and shouldn't be on the road.

DCman1104 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To quote superman...
>
> "It seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? But
> that's why good is hard. Bad is always easy. "
>
> You should do what is right and get a camera
> installed, so when you get in an accident you can
> explain in court how the person that hit you is so
> dumb they couldn't understand what a red light
> means and shouldn't be on the road.


Thank you for your suggestion.

This is all making my day, BTW.

Not if the lane is a dedicated turn lane. A dedicated turn lane you DO NOT have to stop for the light.

Put in a notice to VDOT today and heard right back. I told them the police disagreed. Anybody have any thoughts on the "large painted island" vs the "raised concrete island"? For the life of me I don't see what either have to do with stopping at a red light before turning right at an intersection. I was taught to stop, then yield. I am scouring the driver's manual.






"Your inquiry concerning the operation of the right turn movement from west bound Hunter Mill Road to north bound Hunter Mill Road at the intersection with Sunrise Valley Drive has been forwarded to the VDOT Traffic Engineering Section for review and resolution.



Because this right turn lane is separated from the through movement by a large painted island, the right turn movement not under the control of the traffic signal. The yield sign provides traffic control in this instance, so drivers are not required to stop unless there is oncoming traffic.



There may be confusion about this due to the lack of a raise concrete island that more clearly defines the separation between the through and right turn lanes. We will visit this location to determine if there are possible improvements that can help to clarify this.



Please contact me if you should have further questions concerning this issue."

Dedicated Turn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not if the lane is a dedicated turn lane. A
> dedicated turn lane you DO NOT have to stop for
> the light.


There are dedicated turn lanes all over this place. You still have to stop. It's a frigging red light!

Dedicated Turn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not if the lane is a dedicated turn lane. A
> dedicated turn lane you DO NOT have to stop for
> the light.


+1

It's a dedicated turn lane. Follow the instructions and yield to traffic. No traffic, no yielding or stopping is necessary. Otherwise, there would be a stop sign there.

The put up yield signs to remind you to yield not to tell you to do so. The provide no additional guidance.

Dedicated turn lanes don't require a stop unless there is a control device overhead or to the right. And of course, you must yield the right of way -- it's a merge.

Virginia Driver's Manual=





Turning
To make a right turn you should be in the lane closest to
the curb. Signal your intent to turn by using the proper
turn signal. You should signal at least three or four seconds,
100 feet, ahead of the turn. Look to your left to check the
intersection for pedestrians and traffic coming from the other
direction. Then brake smoothly before and during the turn. If
there is a traffic light or a stop sign at the intersection, come
to a complete stop before you make the turn. Turn into the
lane closest to the curb unless pavement markings lead you
otherwise, and then change lanes if needed.

Rolling along Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At the intersection of Hunter Mill Road and
> Sunrise Valley, up near the toll road entrance,
> there is both a stop light and a yield sign. As
> you approach the intersection going north on
> Hunter Mill Road and want to turn right (to get up
> to the toll road and stay on Hunter Mill Road), if
> the red light is on, do you have to stop before
> you do a right turn, or can you just roll through
> the yield sign if no cars are coming from opposite
> direction (turning left to get on the road)?
>
> I called the police station and a full stop is
> required. The red stop light takes precedence.
> Always. So, since I don't like getting tickets, I
> stop. I have almost been rear-ended, get honked
> at, and fingered more than once. Everybody just
> rolls right through the red stop light/yield sign
> at full speed.

I agree with those who commented below that you do NOT need to stop for a red light if turning right as shown in the photo from Google that I've inserted.

I've labeled the stop line where cars should stop for red, but note that the stop line does not extend into the dedicated turn lane.

As for the police giving you incorrect info, I wonder if they were confused about the intersection that you were talking about.

If you ask them again, show them the photo and see what they say.

==========
==========

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. - John Cassis on manners

Ignoring juvenile attacks and remarks on the internet for over two decades.

Arguing by deflection or name-calling is an admission that you don't have a rational argument.
Attachments:

At this specific intersection, the light only controls the traffic going straight through. The right turn lane is separated and you only need to Yield to oncoming traffic. No traffic = no need to stop. Anyone who says otherwise in this thread is wrong wrong wrong.

yield only Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At this specific intersection, the light only
> controls the traffic going straight through. The
> right turn lane is separated and you only need to
> Yield to oncoming traffic. No traffic = no need
> to stop. Anyone who says otherwise in this thread
> is wrong wrong wrong.

After seeing the picture I agree! I too would get on the horn if you were just sitting there with no on coming traffic.

I still highly suggest getting a dash cam.

Come over here and sit on my finger....

I called the precinct that covers that intersection. The police officer I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about. He said the red light prevailed over the yield sign. You need to stop, then move forward, yielding to oncoming traffic if the light is red.

The driver's manual specifically says if there is a light at the INTERSECTION you are required to stop.

There is a light at the intersection. There are TWO of them actually, as you can see. The turn lane is at the intersection, is it not?

Thanks for the picture. VDOT is going to sort this out. They have to be agreement with the police.

Rolling along Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I called the precinct that covers that
> intersection.

LOL no you didn't.

The red light controls the traffic going through the intersection. The Yield sign applies to the right turn lane.

If traffic is not turning onto Hunter Mill Road at the light from Sunrise Valley -- there is nothing to yield to. What are you stopping for?

The right turn lane IS at the intersection......which is controlled by the red light. Read the driving manual. "If there is a [red light]... AT THE INTERSECTION, come to a complete stop before you make the turn."

No wonder some people stop and others blow right through. Has anybody found anything official in writing that supports this idea that you don't have to stop?

No one is "blowing through," if there is oncoming traffic you yield if not don't yield to the invisible traffic.

If you need to stop, put a stop sign there or put a red light over the lane that is turning.

Holy fuck! The cop should've taken mercy on your libcuck soal and shot you dead. Fuck!

Rolling along Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I called the precinct that covers that
> intersection. The police officer I spoke with knew
> exactly what I was talking about. He said the red
> light prevailed over the yield sign. You need to
> stop, then move forward, yielding to oncoming
> traffic if the light is red.

Can you point to the stop line in the turn lane? If not, how do you know how far back to stop from the intersection? If the other lanes have a stop line, why is this lane missing one?

There are examples of dedicated turn lanes where you need to possibly stop. Duke Street east bound onto south bound Route 1 in Alexandria and 286 east bound onto Telegraph south bound. Both have overhead traffic lights.

Rolling along Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I called the precinct that covers that
> intersection. The police officer I spoke with knew
> exactly what I was talking about. He said the red
> light prevailed over the yield sign. You need to
> stop, then move forward, yielding to oncoming
> traffic if the light is red.
>
> The driver's manual specifically says if there is
> a light at the INTERSECTION you are required to
> stop.
>
> There is a light at the intersection. There are
> TWO of them actually, as you can see. The turn
> lane is at the intersection, is it not?
>
> Thanks for the picture. VDOT is going to sort this
> out. They have to be agreement with the police.

I'll be interested to read what VDOT says.

To me the key is that the stop line, which tells the front car where to stop for a red light does NOT extend into the dedicated turn lane. Therefore, if the traffic light is supposed to control the dedicated turn lane, where is a car in the dedicated turn lane supposed to stop for a red light?

Unless there is some construction being done on a road, VDOT always has a stop line (like I labeled in the photo for the straight through cars) for lanes controlled by the traffic light. Since there is no stop line in the dedicated turn lane, I don't think the traffic light is supposed to control the turning vehicles.

Maybe the triangle separating the dedicated turn lane and the straight through lane means that the dedicated turn lane is not "at the intersection?"

I now appreciate from what you posted that the officer knew the intersection and understood your question. I think that he is mistaken, but I would not argue the point with him if he wrote me a ticket.

I would ask the judge to consider the ambiguity of the traffic set-up at the intersection. Either try for a ruling that the traffic light does NOT control the dedicated turn lane or that VDOT caused the confusion and it's unfair to fine me when they messed up.

==========
==========

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. - John Cassis on manners

Ignoring juvenile attacks and remarks on the internet for over two decades.

Arguing by deflection or name-calling is an admission that you don't have a rational argument.

Nobody has yet to post a state law or section of the driver's manual that says you don't have to stop at a red light controlled intersection if you are in a dedicated turn lane. I have been driving for about 45 years and have never heard of this. Is this urban legend? I think it just morphed from people who like to abuse right turn on red.

I don't think that the light not being over the lane makes any difference. The light controls the intersection and the turn lane is part of the intersection. I don't think you have to have a light for every single lane.

The white line can be covered by snow. We know about that. If for some other reason there isn't a white line, you still have to stop at an appropriate distance from the light and intersection.

Yes, VDOT is analyzing this and if they don't clear up the signage I am trotting over to the police station with this. I might run over there next week anyway.

I use this intersection several times a week. I am just doing what the police told me to do. I have seen others stop, also. I am not the only one. This is a mess.

There is a Yield sign there.

The Yield sign information in the VA driver's manual says that you must slow down as you come to the intersection and be prepared to stop for oncoming cars, pedestrians, bikes, trikes, go-carts, mini-bikes, whatever has made the left turn onto Hunter Mill Road.

If you are supposed to stop, put a Stop sign there.

The triangular area at the intersection seems to put you beyond the area that the traffic light controls.

blanche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a Yield sign there.
>
> The Yield sign information in the VA driver's
> manual says that you must slow down as you come to
> the intersection and be prepared to stop for
> oncoming cars, pedestrians, bikes, trikes,
> go-carts, mini-bikes, whatever has made the left
> turn onto Hunter Mill Road.
>
> If you are supposed to stop, put a Stop sign
> there.
>
> The triangular area at the intersection seems to
> put you beyond the area that the traffic light
> controls.

Blanche-I have never seen anything about a stop light only applying to part of an intersection. Can you please show me something like a state law or something from the driver's manual?

Red light: At a red light, come to a complete stop
at the stop line or, if there is no stop line, before
entering the intersection or before reaching the
crosswalk. Remain stopped as long as the signal is
red, unless turns are allowed.

Blanche is right. Yield means yield. It would be a stop sign if you were supposed to stop. You just slow down and check traffic and if there is nobody to yield to you may proceed.

The best explanation I heard was when you have a main road intersected by a cross street, and where the right turn lane going from the cross street to the main street is separated from the cross street, such as by a raised concrete island, it is two intersections, not one. Since the intersection between the main road and the right turn lane occurs after the intersection between the main road and cross street, traffic in the main road, regardless of how it got there, has the right of way over traffic coming from the cross street. The YIELD sign on the right turn lane is simply a reminder.

Because they are different intersections, a traffic light governing the intersection between the main road and cross street doesn't govern the separated right turn lane. It might not even be visible to cars in the right turn lane. However if there is a light on the right turn lane and if that light is red you are required to stop even if there is also a YIELD sign present.

That is for Virginia. Not sure what the rules are elsewhere.

TVcFv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The best explanation I heard was when you have a
> main road intersected by a cross street, and where
> the right turn lane going from the cross street to
> the main street is separated from the cross
> street, such as by a raised concrete island, it is
> two intersections, not one. Since the
> intersection between the main road and the right
> turn lane occurs after the intersection between
> the main road and cross street, traffic in the
> main road, regardless of how it got there, has the
> right of way over traffic coming from the cross
> street. The YIELD sign on the right turn lane is
> simply a reminder.
>
> Because they are different intersections, a
> traffic light governing the intersection between
> the main road and cross street doesn't govern the
> separated right turn lane. It might not even be
> visible to cars in the right turn lane. However
> if there is a light on the right turn lane and if
> that light is red you are required to stop even if
> there is also a YIELD sign present.
>
> That is for Virginia. Not sure what the rules are
> elsewhere.

Post the law, please. Where did you hear this?

Judge in traffic court about 5 years ago explaining to the driver making a right turn why he was obligated to yield the right of way to someone making a left.

Rolling along Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> blanche Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is a Yield sign there.
> >
> > The Yield sign information in the VA driver's
> > manual says that you must slow down as you come
> to
> > the intersection and be prepared to stop for
> > oncoming cars, pedestrians, bikes, trikes,
> > go-carts, mini-bikes, whatever has made the
> left
> > turn onto Hunter Mill Road.
> >
> > If you are supposed to stop, put a Stop sign
> > there.
> >
> > The triangular area at the intersection seems
> to
> > put you beyond the area that the traffic light
> > controls.
>
> Blanche-I have never seen anything about a stop
> light only applying to part of an intersection.
> Can you please show me something like a state law
> or something from the driver's manual?

The dedicated right turn lane is not part of the intersection, it is beyond the intersection. YIELD sign is posted not a STOP sign.

It would be different if the lane continued up to the intersection and had a stop sign over it or a NO TURN ON RED sign but you are beyond where the traffic signal has control when you are in that dedicated turn lane with a YIELD sign.

>Post the law, please. Where did you hear this?

I don't understand the statement. What law? The law about the meaning of signs and traffic lights? The law doesn't go into detail explaining every single possible intersection configuration and layout. The law explains the way each signal device and sign is supposed to be applied by the driver.

Here are some examples in other states. Yes, this is Virginia -- I know that. However, States don't have as much leeway about the traffic code as they used too. Especially with regard to right on red.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/turns

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6677141

Note this is in California. A State populated with idiots who need _everything_ explained.

This thread is as if a bucket of bolts had a larynx.

The California articles are excellent. They show how confusing this can be.

Even with a semi-clear manual in California, people are obviously confused.

The VA manual clearly states if there is a red light at an intersection you must stop before turning right. Period. So, I stop. That is also what the police told me to do. They are the ones who will write the potential tickets. There is no mention about islands, etc., so I don't know where VDOT came up with the idea that we don't have to stop. I have been looking and there are lots of intersections with dedicated turn lanes, and islands, that don't have specific lights for that lane or white markings. To me, you then have to follow the general light for the intersection. And that is what the manual says. And people are definitely stopping at these other intersections.

It is always the discretion of the lead car as to whether to stop. People behind them always have to be prepared for that. If you are not sure, you usually can't go wrong with stopping. You are supposed to reduce your speed and/or be cautious at intersections anyway for numerous reasons.

I am going up to the police station next week to talk about this. VDOT is also analyzing it.

They definitely need better signage at this intersection. There are lots of opposite opinions and conflicting information displayed in this thread. This has been very helpful.

I suppose you're the sort of jackass who would ram his thumb up his ass upon reaching the light if they passed a law instructing you to do so. You already admit nearly getting rear ended. Did you ever consider that it might be safer to just continue as cautiously as conditions (including other drivers) allow?

FkYdu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suppose you're the sort of jackass who would ram
> his thumb up his ass upon reaching the light if
> they passed a law instructing you to do so. You
> already admit nearly getting rear ended. Did you
> ever consider that it might be safer to just
> continue as cautiously as conditions (including
> other drivers) allow?


Well, if there is a police car nearby, that can run into a very expensive decision. I don't like tickets. Neither does my insurance company. I don't like throwing my money down the toilet. I like having a clean driver's license.

I am currently operating under what I was told to do by an officer of the law. An officer who was totally familiar with the intersection, as he is responsible for patrolling it. The guy who will write me a ticket if I don't. The guy who would write a ticket on the person behind me who wasn't following the law. I think THAT is safer. It is never safer to break the law just because "everybody else is doing it". What do you teach your children? Let's go rob a bank, do drugs, etc. because everybody else does it?

It would be safer for those who are running the light to quit expecting others to break the law, IF that is what the police are still saying. I will check next week. It all revolves around them. I don't have the time or desire to hire a lawyer and argue it out with a judge in traffic court. I prefer to spend my time and money on other things. My insurance company also supports this. Right now there is nothing in the Virginia driver's manual supporting the opposite opinion. Nobody has posted any applicable state laws, either. There are also other people stopping like I am.

Let's see what the police and VDOT say and do. I am open to their decision, but if things have changed, they need to post better signage and update the manual. I think it is obvious from the California articles that this is a widespread problem.

http://virginia.drivinguniversity.com/red-light-cameras/fines-for-running-a-virginia-red-light/

>The VA manual clearly states if there is a red light at an intersection you must stop before turning right.

I suspect the manual is a bit clearer than that. I suspect it mentions traffic control device for the lane(s). In this situation, you are in the right turn lane and now facing _away_ from traffic control device. Why would be expected to look at the control device in another lane?

The people turning in the left lane, don't use the through lane control devices.

You have a clear traffic control device -- the Yield sign.

Here is a confusing intersection:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7783335,-77.1755157,3a,75y,281.08h,80.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1xM69k9MrtjTH6h4s1yjEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It's rather ambiguous which lane that light controls.

Section 2B.08 YIELD Sign (R1-2)

Standard:
01 The YIELD (R1-2) sign (see Figure 2B-1) shall be a downward-pointing equilateral triangle with a wide red border and the legend YIELD in red on a white background.

Support:
02 The YIELD sign assigns right-of-way to traffic on certain approaches to an intersection. Vehicles controlled by a YIELD sign need to slow down to a speed that is reasonable for the existing conditions or stop when necessary to avoid interfering with conflicting traffic.
Section 2B.09 YIELD Sign Applications

Option:
01 YIELD signs may be installed:

On the approaches to a through street or highway where conditions are such that a full stop is not always required.
At the second crossroad of a divided highway, where the median width at the intersection is 30 feet or greater. In this case, a STOP or YIELD sign may be installed at the entrance to the first roadway of a divided highway, and a YIELD sign may be installed at the entrance to the second roadway.
For a channelized turn lane that is separated from the adjacent travel lanes by an island, even if the adjacent lanes at the intersection are controlled by a highway traffic control signal or by a STOP sign.
At an intersection where a special problem exists and where engineering judgment indicates the problem to be susceptible to correction by the use of the YIELD sign.
Facing the entering roadway for a merge-type movement if engineering judgment indicates that control is needed because acceleration geometry and/or sight distance is not adequate for merging traffic operation.

UUKeT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Section 2B.08 YIELD Sign (R1-2)
>
> Standard:
> 01 The YIELD (R1-2) sign (see Figure 2B-1) shall
> be a downward-pointing equilateral triangle with a
> wide red border and the legend YIELD in red on a
> white background.
>
> Support:
> 02 The YIELD sign assigns right-of-way to traffic
> on certain approaches to an intersection. Vehicles
> controlled by a YIELD sign need to slow down to a
> speed that is reasonable for the existing
> conditions or stop when necessary to avoid
> interfering with conflicting traffic.
> Section 2B.09 YIELD Sign Applications
>
> Option:
> 01 YIELD signs may be installed:
>
> On the approaches to a through street or
> highway where conditions are such that a full stop
> is not always required.
> At the second crossroad of a divided highway,
> where the median width at the intersection is 30
> feet or greater. In this case, a STOP or YIELD
> sign may be installed at the entrance to the first
> roadway of a divided highway, and a YIELD sign may
> be installed at the entrance to the second
> roadway.
> For a channelized turn lane that is separated
> from the adjacent travel lanes by an island, even
> if the adjacent lanes at the intersection are
> controlled by a highway traffic control signal or
> by a STOP sign.
> At an intersection where a special problem
> exists and where engineering judgment indicates
> the problem to be susceptible to correction by the
> use of the YIELD sign.
> Facing the entering roadway for a merge-type
> movement if engineering judgment indicates that
> control is needed because acceleration geometry
> and/or sight distance is not adequate for merging
> traffic operation.

Ah HA.
But, none of this is in the driver's manual.

And what exactly is meant by the term "channelized"? Would that be a turn lane that has a physical barrier for a good part of the lane? Something besides a little white paint that is wearing off, by the way?

And it still doesn't say that you don't have to stop before yielding, does it?

Rolling along Wrote:

> Ah HA.
> But, none of this is in the driver's manual.

It's not. It's in the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices.

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/intro/intro.htm

02 The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) is incorporated by reference in 23 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 655, Subpart F and shall be recognized as the national standard for all traffic control devices installed on any street, highway, bikeway, or private road open to public travel (see definition in Section 1A.13) in accordance with 23 U.S.C. 109(d) and 402(a). The policies and procedures of the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) to obtain basic uniformity of traffic control devices shall be as described in 23 CFR 655, Subpart F.



> And what exactly is meant by the term
> "channelized"? Would that be a turn lane that has
> a physical barrier for a good part of the lane?
> Something besides a little white paint that is
> wearing off, by the way?

I do not see a definition for that in the MUTCD.

However, I found this definition:

Channelized right-turn lanes are turning roadways at intersections that provide for free-flow
or nearly free-flow right-turn movements. Channelization can be provided in a variety of forms
including painted pavement areas and curbed islands.


In this document (TRB is Transportation Research Board):

TRB’s National Cooperative Highway Research Program (NCHRP) Web-Only Document 208: Design Guidance for Channelized Right-Turn Lanes develops guidance for channelized right-turn lanes based on balancing the needs of motor vehicles, pedestrians, and bicycles.

http://www.trb.org/Publications/Blurbs/171734.aspx





> And it still doesn't say that you don't have to
> stop before yielding, does it?


It does, but not directly.

"even if the adjacent lanes at the intersection are controlled by a highway traffic control signal or by a STOP sign"

If they intended for it be acceptable to have both a yield sign and a traffic signal controlling the same lane, they would not have used the word "adjacent" there.

It is, in fact, NOT acceptable to have to have a lane controlled by both a traffic signal and a yield or stop sign, for what should be obvious reasons.

I believe I saw some portion of the MUTCD which specifically stated as such, but I am going to have to look for it.

Thanks for your research. I will take it up to the police station and talk it over with them. VDOT also has turned this over to the Fairfax Police to be evaluated.

If even the police (and the driving examiners) are confused, you know there is a problem.

As I pointed out, there are lots of turn lanes that don't have a dedicated light. There are some islands. Some have paint. Some don't. Some have yield signs. Some don't. People seem to be stopping at all the red lights, regardless. This particular intersection seems to be being handled differently than the others by the public for some reason. I always looked at a yield sign as a reminder that you have to yield right-of-way. This was in addition to stopping at the light at the intersection. So did the original police officer I talked to.

It doesn't do any good to create all this uniform marking/lighting but then not put it in the driver's manual to disseminate it to the public. I took Driver's Ed 40+ years ago. Back then we stopped, then yielded.

"It doesn't do any good to create all this uniform marking/lighting but then not put it in the driver's manual to disseminate it to the public. I took Driver's Ed 40+ years ago. Back then we stopped, then yielded."


=====================>And if you look at the beginning of the thread, you will see several other people who think the same way. I am not alone.

>Back then we stopped, then yielded.

This statement is invalid. Stopping is yielding. You are saying, I yielded and yielded. The point of a yield sign is that a stop may not be necessary.

>And what exactly is meant by the term "channelized"? Would that be a turn lane that has a physical barrier for a good part of the lane? Something besides a little white paint that is wearing off, by the way?

Technically, you should never cross a solid white line (in the direction of travel of course). So solid white lines do indicate channelization. A physical barrier would also be effective, but not very practical. Paint costs money. VDOT doesn't have money. Pay your meal's tax.

GkJ36 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Back then we stopped, then yielded.
>
> This statement is invalid. Stopping is yielding.
> You are saying, I yielded and yielded. The point
> of a yield sign is that a stop may not be
> necessary.
>
> >And what exactly is meant by the term
> "channelized"? Would that be a turn lane that has
> a physical barrier for a good part of the lane?
> Something besides a little white paint that is
> wearing off, by the way?
>
> Technically, you should never cross a solid white
> line (in the direction of travel of course). So
> solid white lines do indicate channelization. A
> physical barrier would also be effective, but not
> very practical. Paint costs money. VDOT doesn't
> have money. Pay your meal's tax.

Actually, back in the Dark Ages when I took Driver's Ed., when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, we didn't even have right turn on red!!!!!!!!

And I don't want to hear about it. I have had one speeding ticket in 43 years (40 years ago), and only one lane-changing accident about 36 years ago. Oh, and one slip on ice about 22 years ago. Take that. Not too bad.

I learned to drive in a county that didn't have traffic lights 30 years ago. My first vehicle had a left and right brake. I took and passed the driving test with standard transmission. Times change, laws change and you adapt.

VXnGW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I learned to drive in a county that didn't have
> traffic lights 30 years ago. My first vehicle had
> a left and right brake. I took and passed the
> driving test with standard transmission. Times
> change, laws change and you adapt.

As I pointed out, maybe the police are confused/uninformed and there is a huge glaring omission in the Virginia driver's manual (California put it in there, so can Virginia). VDOT (and DMV) has some work to do. Sounds like there was a lot of confusion out in California, also. If driving examiners can't figure this out, there's a problem.

They are working on this. Let's see what transpires.

It doesn't do the public any good to make a Federal level decision and implement it but not put the word out to the police and the public in the most commonly utilized methods.

Thanks for all the information posted. Very helpful and informative. I just ignore the asshole remarks.

"I spoke with our Fairfax County Police liaison, and he supports our contention that motorists are controlled by the yield sign, and not the traffic signal at this location. This is because the painted island separates the right-turning traffic from the rest of the approach. If the painted island did not exist and the right turn lane continued parallel to the though lane up to the stop bar, rather than curve off to the right, then motorists would be compelled to obey the traffic signal, and there would be no yield condition or yield sign.



Very similar configurations exist at Reston Parkway and Sunset Hills Road, Reston Parkway and Baron Cameron Avenue, and Fairfax County Parkway south bound at the Dulles Access Road west ramp, where right-turning traffic is channelized by an island (either painted or concrete) and controlled by a yield sign.



Please let me know if you have further questions concerning this issue."



Sincerely,



Don Moyer

Area Engineer, Northern Fairfax County

Virginia Department of Transportation

Northern Region Operations

Traffic Engineering Section

703.259.1211




=============>The question remains-who is going to notify the Reston police station that they gave out bad advice, and who is going to notify the DMV that they need to make an addition to the Driver's Manual? If California can put it in their manual, so can Virginia.

We don't need the manual updated. The signage is clear.

You can't convince an officer of anything. You simply have an affirmative defense.

hPvEC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We don't need the manual updated. The signage is
> clear.
>
> You can't convince an officer of anything. You
> simply have an affirmative defense.

The way the manual is written, there is no mention of this, so the red light could be construed as taking control of the entire area (even with the yield sign). That is what the officer said.

If California can put it in their driver's manual, so can Virginia. They will be notified. By me.

I have investigated this particular intersection a bit more and learned that it is scheduled to be reconstructed by VDOT within the next 12 – 24 months, with all poles, signals and related equipment being replaced due to age.



Currently the plans call for realigning the west bound right turn movement such that it will be brought up parallel with the through lane and will therefore come under signal control.



An interesting coincidence.



Please let me know if you have further questions.



Sincerely,



Don Moyer

Area Engineer, Northern Fairfax County

Virginia Department of Transportation

Northern Region Operations

Traffic Engineering Section

703.259.1211

Our tax dollars at work.