Today while driving west on Old Keene Mill Rd. in the early am, I came upon St. Bernadette’s Church. About 1 block before, there was a flashing signal for “School Area” with a posted speed limit of 25mph. Slowing from my previous speed of 45, I watched as the SUV in front of me did not. About 100 yards up, a man in a mile-green vest walked out into the traffic and yanked the SUV to the parking lot to discuss what I imagine would be, failure to obey a highway sign – speeding in a school zone.

So, with the background out of the way, how is it that a CHURCH gets a school zone on a state road??

I have also seen in the past there, and around Fairfax County, Police officers working to control traffic as church lets out/in – again, what about separation of church & state???

I'm all for the seperation of church and state, but I think this is a case of traffic safety. Whenever you have a lot of parking lot traffic emptying onto local roads with little kids around, it might be a good idea to have a traffic cop around. The same thing happens alot on Wolftrap Rd. and Cedar Rd. in Vienna. I hate getting stuck in it, but even if it were the Church of Eternal Satanic Glory, I don't think it's such a bad thing to have a traffic cop present.

I would imagine it has a school zone because there's a school there.

http://www.stbernpar.org/school/St.%20Bernadette%20School.htm

I hear you - and honestly, on OKM Rd., church-goers may never be able to get out of the lot without the help however, not really my problem.

Now, back to the school zones for CHURCHES... How does this get by? Because they have a pre-school?? It does not make sense at all.


Maybe the SUV driver should look into this (if they care), finding out if a school zone for a church is allowed under law - I am not certain it is, or convinced it isn't...

Thoughts???

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would imagine it has a school zone because
> there's a school there.
>
> http://www.stbernpar.org/school/St.%20Bernadette%2
> 0School.htm


____________________________________________________________

I do agree there is a school there however, it is one of the few church-based schools that has a flashing 25mph school zone.

My kids pre-school did not have one (it was church-based) and many other schools and learning institutions do not have them.

I wonder then, what is the criteria for getting our tax dollars to fund this??

...just curious

Thoughts???

I don't have a problem with it as-is, but if it ever came to a vote, I'd vote against letting church organizations do that.

I'd just vote to ban churches and all religious buildings. Let them practice that freedom of religion bullshit in some other state, like West VA or something.

First of all there is a school there. The churches pay for the signs and have to get them approved.

Second; The police are at intersections where there have been previous bad accidents involving church traffic. The churches PAY for the services of having OFF DUTY police officers doing traffic controll. The churches pay a nice penny so both the FFX Police Departments and off duty cops make out well.

And they should pay more. They get tons of money, and just use it competing for "God's glory™" with other churches.

Baby jesus cries aloud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2006 11:24PM by RESton Peace.

Here's the link for St. Bernadette’s Catholic School located at the church http://www.stbernpar.org/ Most all of the Catholic churchs in Fairfax also have Catholic schools attached now.

Yeah I already posted a link, way to read the rest of the thread.

Sorry RESton Peace, I have ADD and nobody will give me meds.

I guess ffxn8v doesn't understand that a Catholic school isn't just a preschool... it's also K-8. As for the "tax dollars" that go to pay for it, don't forget that behind every student at the school is a family paying the same taxes as the family sending the kid to public school. The benefit to the county for increasing the dollars available per student by eliminating their kids from the public student rolls more than makes up for some traffic control twice a day.

To keep the math simple, if 100 one-child families each paid taxes that amounted to 500 per year that went to the portion of the county budget for schools and all of the kids went to public school, that's $500 per child available. If ten of those families instead sent their kid to private school then the county gets over $550 per child. The real number the county spends is over $7000 per child I believe. If all the private schools went away and all those students went into the public schools that their families are paying for anyway, the dollars per student would drop significantly.

So just pretend that those families are paying for the traffic signals instead of a public school education.

The private schools, such as the Catholic schools, also teach more discipline and have better teachers. Higher education for kids in FFX County at no cost to taxpayers. A win-win situation for County residents. The only thing lost here is the money that parents pay to send their kids to private schools.

um i have news for you, they dont have better teacher and private schools arent all they are cracked up to be.

Well stated.

Half the kids are on drugs, the othe rhalf are actually normal kids like the ones in pulic schools. If you know your school system, you wouldnt over look the fact that kids that get kicked out of public school for drugs, behavbioral issues, or other problems have 4 choices...

1. Alternative schools (ie. mountainview, pimmit, etc)
2.)Private schools, such as cathloic schools
3.)JDC
4.)Not go to school period....even then i thihnk youll be placed in JDC.

Now, being as that i think that private schools have less of a "label" for the kids thus making it more appealing for parents to send their kids there. The problem is, they students bring their bad habbits to those schools. So dont praise private schools or their teachers. Teachers dont have to be nearly as qualified to teach in private schools as they do public, with the exception of a few, such as flint hill. On another note, think about the technology they are able to provide.... i guarantee majority of public schools have better programs and educational devices (computers, technological equipment, etc..) than private schools.

it's a full fledged school, elementary through high school. that is why it's a school zone, plain and simple.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

uhhcya Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> othe rhalf
> pulic schools
> wouldnt
> behavbioral
> issues, or other problems have 4 choices...
> cathloic schools
> i thihnk youll
> bad habbits
> dont

Again, very well stated from an obvious authority on what a good education is.

Kids who are kicked out of public schools do not usually enroll in a private school. They get "pupil placed" at another public school and tax payers foot the bill for their transportation even if it is a daily taxi cab drive to the new school.

Trickie

uhhcya, Just wondering if your last post is the product of "pulic schools?"

pgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So just pretend that those families are paying for
> the traffic signals instead of a public school
> education.


_________________________________________________________

o.k., I'll pretend then -



...but I still do not have to agree with it ;-)


Thank you to all who replied -

The private catholic schools do a better job of teaching only because they focus on the basics like reading and math. The public schools are too busy with social engineering to teach everyone to love everyone else. Not a bad idea but should be left to the parents.

I would guess as previously stated the church schools do save the county money since they get taxes from the parents and yet the kids are not in the county schools.

The public schools do get screwed in that they must provide an education to every child, even the trouble makers up to a certain age. They can expell a kid but are required to still send him to some school.

The private catholic schools do a better job of teaching only because they focus on the basics like reading and math

That's not always true. Although I didn't go to high school near here; when I got to ninth grade, the kids that switched over from the local Catholic school were all a year behind in math.

Anybody know where Willow Springs Elementary is on Braddock Rd. (just west of Ffax Co Pkwy)

Anyway, it is HELL trying to turn a left out of the school during high traffic periods. We have been trying to get a light put there. We noted that the private school (Trinity, I think?) that is a few miles east on Braddock between 123 and Shirley Gate has a light. A sign says "School Driveway".

We were told that the private school paid for that light (big $$$) and that the County would not pay for a light at Willow Springs. Do you think it's true that the private school paid for that traffic light?

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Today while driving west on Old Keene Mill Rd. in
> the early am, I came upon St. Bernadette’s
> Church. About 1 block before, there was a flashing
> signal for “School Area” with a posted speed limit
> of 25mph. Slowing from my previous speed of 45, I
> watched as the SUV in front of me did not. About
> 100 yards up, a man in a mile-green vest walked
> out into the traffic and yanked the SUV to the
> parking lot to discuss what I imagine would be,
> failure to obey a highway sign – speeding in a
> school zone.
>
> So, with the background out of the way, how is it
> that a CHURCH gets a school zone on a state road??
>
>
> I have also seen in the past there, and around
> Fairfax County, Police officers working to control
> traffic as church lets out/in – again, what about
> separation of church & state???


It's a school, you fucking idiot. The road goes through a school zone. It doesn't matter that it is a Church school. I guess you would rather have some dead kids.

What a fucking twit you are.

I say a light should be put at willow springs, and the county should pay for it.

Do you know how many speed traps they run there each week? I once saw 8 in one week. I've seen dozens of others as well. That spot has got to be a total cash cow for the county, and putting up a light would automatically kill that revenue stream. The backup from the light would happen at most times of day, and would kill the ability to get up any speed.

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd just vote to ban churches and all religious
> buildings. Let them practice that freedom of
> religion bullshit in some other state, like West
> VA or something.

I'd vote to ban all 25 mph school zone speed limits. just a reason for cops to give more tickets

ws mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody know where Willow Springs Elementary is on
> Braddock Rd. (just west of Ffax Co Pkwy)
>
> Anyway, it is HELL trying to turn a left out of
> the school during high traffic periods. We have
> been trying to get a light put there. We noted
> that the private school (Trinity, I think?) that
> is a few miles east on Braddock between 123 and
> Shirley Gate has a light. A sign says "School
> Driveway".
>
> We were told that the private school paid for that
> light (big $$$) and that the County would not pay
> for a light at Willow Springs. Do you think it's
> true that the private school paid for that traffic
> light?


I fucking hate that light. So dumb. Real sensitive too. All it takes is one person and it stops 500 cars on braddock road. Thank god Idon't commute that way anymore

ws mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We were told that the private school paid for that
> light (big $$$) and that the County would not pay
> for a light at Willow Springs. Do you think it's
> true that the private school paid for that traffic
> light?

This isn't that uncommon, and it isn't just private schools. In Centreville, Mobil paid for an entire intersection realignment at Stone/29 as part of the deal for putting a station there. Of course the contractor messed up the signage, people wrote VDOT to complain, VDOT did absolutely nothing, accidents and injury happened, and then they repainted the lane assignments.

The thing about the County is you can't boycott them. But you can stage creative civil protests. One idea with car tax payments due Oct 5 is to find out when the Taj Mahal offices close (6p?) and have all the parents carry signs in saying "Traffic Signal at Willow" while you create an ungodly line for car tax payments in person that you all would otherwise have just mailed. You'll create a ruckus and maybe make them stay open later.

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I say a light should be put at willow springs, and
> the county should pay for it.
>
> Do you know how many speed traps they run there
> each week? I once saw 8 in one week. I've seen
> dozens of others as well. That spot has got to be
> a total cash cow for the county, and putting up a
> light would automatically kill that revenue
> stream. The backup from the light would happen at
> most times of day, and would kill the ability to
> get up any speed.

Another thing that would kill that cash cow: SLOW DOWN TO 25 MPH!! The WS school zone is what 1/3 of a mile or less? How many seconds of anyone's precious time does that cost?

BTW, if you like to speed in school zones...stay away from Robinson Secondary on Sideburn. They're out there ALL the time!

Fairfax MF-er Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> It's a school, you fucking idiot. The road goes
> through a school zone. It doesn't matter that it
> is a Church school. I guess you would rather have
> some dead kids.
>
> What a fucking twit you are.


__________________________________________________________

Congrats - you are the first person to cuss me out on this site!

It seems most folks here are adults and when a legitimate post is made, a reasonable attempt to answer with respect to the subject at hand, is given.

With all due respect, you do not know me enough to address me the way you have - close mouth, breathe through your nose...


...you just got a little smarter as a result ;-)

.....It seems most folks here are adults.....

ws mom, notice how I never said I was pro or con. whether I like the speed traps or not is immaterial to the fact that they are a cash cow. you, madame, are just a regular old cow.

you guys do realize, just like there is a DWI program, there is a school zone safety program that they are pursuing. They are at most schools during the time school gets out and they are the biker cops shooting laser. just go slow, thats all you need to do because, as was mentioned before, its less than 3/4 of a mile - deal with it. Info came from a ffx county officer that tells me things that are going on so its a reliable source. not to mention they put it out in the news.....

On another note, i love it when FFX county police let it be publicly known when and where they will be doing checkpoints.... yet morons still go through it at that particular time lol... to funny. serves people right.

I noticed no one addressed the thread title. People often misunderstand what separation of church and state means. It doesn't mean that one can't give money to the other... it means that there is no state-sponsored religion (as in "the official church of the US is the blah blah church) and that the rules of law are determined by a legislature and not the hierarchy of a religious group.

I think the OP was implying that public funding of school zone designation and signage for St. Bernadette's violated the establishment clause, which is the basis for the separation.

ws mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another thing that would kill that cash cow: SLOW
> DOWN TO 25 MPH!! The WS school zone is what 1/3
> of a mile or less? How many seconds of anyone's
> precious time does that cost?

Alot, being as how the speed limit is 45 decresed to 25. It seems to take forever to get from the housing development on the left to the plumbing supply. And there's not reason for there to be a school zone there. THe school is not directly on braddock road and to my knowledge there is no crosswalk so no kids walking across.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ws mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Another thing that would kill that cash cow:
> SLOW
> > DOWN TO 25 MPH!! The WS school zone is what
> 1/3
> > of a mile or less? How many seconds of
> anyone's
> > precious time does that cost?
>
> Alot, being as how the speed limit is 45 decresed
> to 25. It seems to take forever to get from the
> housing development on the left to the plumbing
> supply. And there's not reason for there to be a
> school zone there. THe school is not directly on
> braddock road and to my knowledge there is no
> crosswalk so no kids walking across.


You are correct, no children cross at the Willow Springs school zone. But about 20 school buses enter and leave twice a day. The school zone is there to make bus operations a little safer. The zone slows 50-60 mph traffic to something much less, so if there was a crash involving a bus it should be more survivable.

Speaking of school buses, while red light cameras are gone, the County is putting cameras on buses to catch people blowing by. Also, in situations where lots of cars pass school buses with lights flashing, motorcycle cops are going to tail the bus and hide behind the back bumper. That's a BAD ticket too (reckless driving, I think), and definitely not worth the seconds saved by passing the school bus.

ws mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speaking of school buses, while red light cameras
> are gone, the County is putting cameras on buses
> to catch people blowing by. Also, in situations
> where lots of cars pass school buses with lights
> flashing, motorcycle cops are going to tail the
> bus and hide behind the back bumper.

i always stop for school buses. kids being 20 points each can really raise your score. however, getting a baby in a stroller with the parent is like 200 points!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

God forbid that you have to wait a whole extra 2 minutes so that some people can leave from worshiping. Tons of people attend services there and from what I've noticed, at any event with lots of people, whether it be relgious or not, usualy recieve either police aid or some other form of help with local traffic.

Besides, its not like while you are sitting there waiting to move religion is being forced on you, they are merely trying to ease traffic.

i thought they were 50 points? lol

I'm all for religious freedom,until the KKK starts a church in my hood like the one on the fairfax county parkway.I believe it is called Fairfax temple baptist.what a bunch of racist ! if you are black and go there you will see what i mean.

I blow as much cigarette smoke out the window as possible when I drive by schools zones.

What do they do?

Jon W Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God forbid that you have to wait a whole extra 2
> minutes so that some people can leave from
> worshiping. Tons of people attend services there
> and from what I've noticed, at any event with lots
> of people, whether it be relgious or not, usualy
> recieve either police aid or some other form of
> help with local traffic.
>
> Besides, its not like while you are sitting there
> waiting to move religion is being forced on you,
> they are merely trying to ease traffic.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


Don't make YOUR religion, MY problem.

If you want to go worship, etc. - fine.

If you cannot handle waiting an extra two minutes to get out of the parking lot, maybe you should reconsider going...

I don't what's wrong with turning on a nice televangelist and getting religion from your couch.

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't make YOUR religion, MY problem.
>
> If you want to go worship, etc. - fine.
>
> If you cannot handle waiting an extra two minutes
> to get out of the parking lot, maybe you should
> reconsider going...

that is a really retarded argument because you can turn it around right back at you. if you cannot handle driving slower perhaps you should reconsider driving down that road. maybe you should stop driving altogether. i guess we should all go insane that there are any school zones at all. i mean, dont push YOUR broken education system MY problem. now, let me infuriate you further. :)

maybe YOU should be attending church because you are a condemned sinner.

priceless.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Gravis Wrote:
>
> that is a really retarded argument because you can
> turn it around right back at you.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Huh?? I DID turn it right back around on him - I think that was my point ;-)


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Gravis Wrote:
>
>
> maybe YOU should be attending church because you
> are a condemned sinner.


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

...you might be on to something there - :cheers:

Naw, its free religion and free education. But cars cost money. So, the people who are actually spending money should get to go fisrt because they spent money. THose who are freeloading can wait. THey didn't have to spend any money.

ugh... whiners, all of you. it's not like the come out and hit you with the bible screaming "REPENT!"


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

.