HomeFairfax General ForumArrest/Ticket SearchWiki newPictures/VideosChatArticlesLinksAbout
Fairfax County General :  Fairfax Underground fairfax underground logo
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Pages: 12AllNext
Current Page: 1 of 2
Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Clifton for our kids ()
Date: July 11, 2009 10:14PM

FCPS Board may decide to close Clifton Elementary rather than do the necessary renovations, as previously planned, and approved by voters.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: steve k2 ()
Date: July 11, 2009 11:09PM

The school is surrounded by very few students close by. It would be better to bus the kids living out there to neighboring schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Thurston Moore ()
Date: July 12, 2009 01:21AM

We are in a recession, aren't we?

Besides, if the school is in total disrepair and there are very few students in the vicinity, how much of a loss is this?

I would think parents would like to see their kids going to school in a building that isn't going to risk their health or cause autism or whatever worry is the fear du jour.

I have to ask, what do you mean by "approved by voters?" Because even if there were a bond referendum passed by voters, that isn't "approving repairs", like most people are tricked into believing. Bond referendums are not like propositions in California, they are just like the title says, BOND referendums -- you aren't voting for or against whatever the bond pays for, you are voting for or against selling BONDS, or taking on debt, in order to pay for that project.

In other words, if you vote "yes" for a bond for more parks, you are not voting yes for more parks, that has already been approved by the county board. You are simply voting yes to take on debt to pay for the parks. Granted, the board may reverse their decision to build more parks if they don't want to use general funds after being voted down on taking on debt in the form of bonds, but they can also reverse their decision even if given the go ahead to sell debt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 01:25AM by Thurston Moore.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: July 12, 2009 01:23AM

I'm sure the rich parents of Clifton will object for some reason.

Here's FCPS' report: http://fcps.edu/news/documents/FeasibilityStudyCliftonandSWFC.pdf

Some interesting difficulties with Clifton ES that basically means it will cost a lot to renovate it. It looks to be cheaper to build a new elementary school especially since they have plenty of land next to Liberty MS.

Some valid arguments for not renovating Clifton ES (not BS like for building Gatehouse II):
-The school does not have a public water connection. If the school was renovated, it would require the installation of fire sprinklers. The same code that requires their installation also says the water source for the fire sprinklers cannot be a well, which is what the school has. Connectng to public water supply would cost 3 million dollars, says FCPS. There is also no fire hydrants.

-The school is on top of a cliff. There is no room to expand the school sideways or towards the parking lot. They claim it would be expensive to build in the courtyard and there is a hill right behind the school so going that way is limited. I do wonder if they could do it like terra set/terra center ES and build the school under the hill.

-There is not a lot of space to put classroom trailers while the school is undergoing renovation



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 01:37AM by KeepOnTruckin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Thurston Moore ()
Date: July 12, 2009 02:58AM

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure the rich parents of Clifton will object
> for some reason.
>

Of course they will. Even lower middle class parents get all hot under the collar over anything the school board does. This is a passionate topic. "it's about the children!!"

> Some valid arguments for not renovating Clifton ES
> (not BS like for building Gatehouse II):
> -The school does not have a public water
> connection. If the school was renovated, it would
> require the installation of fire sprinklers. The
> same code that requires their installation also
> says the water source for the fire sprinklers
> cannot be a well, which is what the school has.
> Connectng to public water supply would cost 3
> million dollars, says FCPS. There is also no fire
> hydrants.
>

Bingo. There it is. Cheaper to build a new school. DONE.

> -The school is on top of a cliff. There is no room
> to expand the school sideways or towards the

it's on a cliff????!?!?! Oh NoZ! My child could fall off a fucking godammned cliff? Get him out of there right now!!! This is unsafe and my family attorney is investigating lawsuits right now!!! DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! How irresponsible can anyone be? My little Johnny is precious, and if anything happens to him, I'll be devastated. I can't have him die, I enjoy being a helicopter parent. Neuroticism runs in my family, and I need Johnny to grow up to be neurotic, too!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 02:58AM by Thurston Moore.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Clifton parent ()
Date: July 12, 2009 11:34AM

Some facts about Clifton Elem.

1st: The school currently has 375 students.

2nd: The school is not in total disrepair. The main issue the FCPS Board has is the water. It is the only school in the county on well water. To connect to the Fairfax Water Authority water grid, it will cost approx. 1.5-2 million. The closest connection site is 2.4 miles away from the school. According to the study posted on the county website.

There is also, according to the FCPS website, $19 million already approved for renovations at the school, which would more than cover hooking up to public water and the renovations, thereby eliminating most of their arguments for closing the school.

3rd: Clifton Elementary received the Governor's Award for Excellence last year. It was 1 of 20 schools in the county to receive this award.

4th: Clifton Elementary consistently scores, on average, 10% higher than Fairfax County averages on test scores.

5th: The students at Clifton Elementary are excelling, because it is a small school where each child gets individual attention.

I do agree that another school needs to be built. The schools in Centreville are terribly overcrowded, and expected by 2014 to be even worse. A new school should be built to help alleviate that problem.

On the other hand, Clifton Elementary is expected to have almost the same enrollment in 2014 that it has now. The reason for this is because this area can not be developed further.

It makes more sense in the long run to renovate Clifton Elementary and preserve the stability of that school, AND build a new school which will accomodate the growing populations in neighboring schools for at least a little while. Instead of building a new school, and have it over capacity before it even opens. e.g. South County

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: tubby ()
Date: July 12, 2009 11:55AM

Water? Who needs city water?

Couldn't the swells down there swing little designer Perrier backpacks? Maybe 5 gallons....enough for precious to drink and flush the potty with.

Or park a Perrier tanker truck out in the parking lot?

Or maybe Trummer's could cater?

The resourceful Clifton folk can come up with something!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Waist of taxpayers money ()
Date: July 12, 2009 12:50PM

Clifton School needs to stay. It does not make sense to spend tens of millions of dollars on a new school when you could spend a fraction of that making the needed renovations to the old one. This boils down to the board wanting to play with the taxpayers money. It reminds me of a city building a "needed" $600 million sports stadium when the old stadium becomes 25 years old. Yes, a new school will pay for itself...maybe by the year 2080. However, FFX CO. has a current tax base crisis...lets not add to that by making a stupid decision by building schools that we do not need.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 12, 2009 02:36PM

Let me guess. You are one of the same people who bitch that the FFX County Commissioners don't have the balls to cut expenses. Correct?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Chica ()
Date: July 12, 2009 03:14PM

I would hate to see Clifton Elementary close for various reasons. The school board is has a meeting July 13th and Clifton Elementary is on the agenda. Parents should attend and make their opinions heard.


http://www.fcps.edu/news/swcountyschls.htm

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: formerhick76 ()
Date: July 12, 2009 07:51PM

If Clifton parents want their school so badly, why not create a small tax district to help support it?

With that said, how much would it cost to construct a water storage tank with however much water is needed, cart in said water, and then use the tank to power the sprinklers?

http://examiner.gmnews.com/news/2007/0201/Front_page/003.html

"Roberts contacted Chicago Bridge and Iron, which she said is one of the largest water tower builders in the country. Roberts said a 200,000-gallon water tower would cost approximately $690,000, and a 100,000-gallon tank would cost $575,000. She said the price of steel has risen a great deal over the past few years, as has the cost of concrete, which is needed for the footing."

So let's say 800,000 to build a water tank and then 200,000 to bring in the water. For 1/3 of the cost of connecting just CES to the FCWA grid, said water tower could even help out the good folks of the Clifton area during droughts as well.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Demography rules ()
Date: July 12, 2009 07:55PM

South Lakes had a small student population that could have been accommodated at other schools (especially since Langley was getting an addition). Yet the school board refused to consider closing it. Instead, they spent a fortune renovating South Lakes, then redistricted it to swallow up neighborhoods that would improve its demographics. Likewise, Luther Jackson MS was underenrolled, so the school board built an addition, announced that it was now a GT center, and redistricted Vienna to the new GT center, which, coincidentally enough, would significantly improve the demographics at Jackson.

It looks like their motives are the same regarding Clifton, even if it involves treating that school exactly the opposite way. Clifton must be closed so that their children can be exported to improve the demographics at other schools.

The only people that aren't treated that way are the ones that go to Langley and South County. Everyone in the middle is just fodder for demographic balancing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: GMU Hokie ()
Date: July 12, 2009 08:32PM

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure the rich parents of Clifton will object
> for some reason.
>
> Here's FCPS' report:
> http://fcps.edu/news/documents/FeasibilityStudyCli
> ftonandSWFC.pdf
>
> Some interesting difficulties with Clifton ES that
> basically means it will cost a lot to renovate it.
> It looks to be cheaper to build a new elementary
> school especially since they have plenty of land
> next to Liberty MS.
>
> Some valid arguments for not renovating Clifton ES
> (not BS like for building Gatehouse II):
> -The school does not have a public water
> connection. If the school was renovated, it would
> require the installation of fire sprinklers. The
> same code that requires their installation also
> says the water source for the fire sprinklers
> cannot be a well, which is what the school has.
> Connectng to public water supply would cost 3
> million dollars, says FCPS. There is also no fire
> hydrants.
>
> -The school is on top of a cliff. There is no room
> to expand the school sideways or towards the
> parking lot. They claim it would be expensive to
> build in the courtyard and there is a hill right
> behind the school so going that way is limited. I
> do wonder if they could do it like terra set/terra
> center ES and build the school under the hill.
>
> -There is not a lot of space to put classroom
> trailers while the school is undergoing renovation

Clifton E S is doomed. Does anyone know where the original CLifton E S was located?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 12, 2009 09:15PM

I personally think they should keep a Clifton Elementary and not bus kids off to other schools and further cause overcrowding and community massacring issues but instead build a new elementary school or renovate the current one.

It's the concept of a Clifton Elementary the Clifton Community needs not the current building necessarily.

Clifton residents want the small school setting that allows children the ability to excel to their fullest. They want the school, to keep the community connected, and to keep this unique pocket of Fairfax County we know as Clifton to stay as rustic,small, and un-urbanized or should I say un-sububranized as possible.

Thats the way Clifton keeps its charm.

This is coming from a Fairfax Station (yet basically Clifton) resident and graduate from Clifton Elementary School; a school I love and cherish still to this day.

But to all of you who aren't for this school and its existence. Go ahead, knock down a historic community icon of the area; it'll cost just as much to demolish it as to renovate/rebuild it with the BILLIONS of dollars stimulus money we have to tap into. Please people use your brains here.

I understand why people say it's unfixable, but how hard is to dig a hole in the ground to get water? Install sprinklers into a building? Replace moldy carpet with tile or widen the school to the various areas (even if that means the surrounding hills) surrounding the school?

The answer: It's not.

Please, if there are any Clifton Residents or people who oppose the destruction of this school and what it stands for please let your voices and opinions be heard NOW.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 11:43AM by RobertGreyberg.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Clifton parent ()
Date: July 12, 2009 10:18PM

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally think they should keep a Clifton
> Elementary and not bus kids off to other schools
> and further cause overcrowding and community
> massacring issues but instead build a new
> elementary school or renovate the current one.
>
> It's the concept of a Clifton Elementary the
> Clifton Community needs not the current building
> necessarily.
>
> Clifton residents want the small school setting
> that allows children the ability to excel to their
> fullest. They want the school, to keep the
> community connected, and to keep this unique
> pocket of Fairfax County we know as Clifton to as
> stay rustic and small and un-urbanized or should I
> say un-sububranized as possible.
>
> Thats the way Clifton keeps its charm.
>
> This is coming from a Fairfax Station (yet
> basically Clifton) resident and graduate from
> Clifton Elementary School; a school I love and
> cherish still to this day.
>
> But to all of you who aren't for this school and
> its existence. Go ahead, knock down a historic
> community icon of the area; it'll cost just as
> much to demolish it as to renovate/rebuild it with
> the BILLIONS of dollars stimulus money we have to
> tap into. Please people use your brains here.
>
> I understand why people say it's unfixable, but
> how hard is to dig a hole in the ground to get
> water? Install sprinklers into a building? Replace
> moldy carpet with tile or widen the school to the
> various areas (even if that means the surrounding
> hills) surrounding the school?
>
> The answer: It's not.
>
> Please, if there are any Clifton Residents or
> people who oppose the destruction of this school
> and what it stands for please let your voices and
> opinions be heard NOW.


Thank you! you hit the nail on the head. For those interested in helping us show our support to keep the school open, there is a meeting tomorrow at 8115 Gatehouse Rd. Rm. 1600, Falls Church. The Board will be discussing Clifton ES at 3:30. We are asking everyone supporting to keep the school open to wear RED, Clifton ES's color.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: A Clifton Parent ()
Date: July 12, 2009 10:30PM

I wish there had been something mailed out to Clifton Elementary parents about this. All I saw was an article in the Connection. Nothing from the school, PTA, etc. There really needs to be some organizing of parents protesting this move. Losing our neighborhood school would be a big downfall for our town.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Thurston Moore ()
Date: July 12, 2009 10:45PM

Clifton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is also, according to the FCPS website, $19
> million already approved for renovations at the
> school, which would more than cover hooking up to
> public water and the renovations, thereby
> eliminating most of their arguments for closing
> the school.

Wow, over $50,000 per student! Why not just send the kids to a private school for 7 years, it would be much cheaper.


> On the other hand, Clifton Elementary is expected
> to have almost the same enrollment in 2014 that it
> has now. The reason for this is because this area
> can not be developed further.

I think this is probably the biggest reason for closing the school. The school is only going to become more and more expensive to run, every year, and require 20 million dollar renovations every once in a while, but the number of students served is static (and eventually will decline), and thus inflation is working against the school.

It's sad that those with extra money are also going to lose out on the good fortune of having their children schooled exclusively at taxpayer expense while the rest are schooled in overcrowded schools. But I just don't have any sympathy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2009 10:45PM by Thurston Moore.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Clifton parent ()
Date: July 12, 2009 10:58PM

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clifton parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is also, according to the FCPS website,
> $19
> > million already approved for renovations at the
> > school, which would more than cover hooking up
> to
> > public water and the renovations, thereby
> > eliminating most of their arguments for closing
> > the school.
>
> Wow, over $50,000 per student! Why not just send
> the kids to a private school for 7 years, it would
> be much cheaper.
>
>
> > On the other hand, Clifton Elementary is
> expected
> > to have almost the same enrollment in 2014 that
> it
> > has now. The reason for this is because this
> area
> > can not be developed further.
>
> I think this is probably the biggest reason for
> closing the school. The school is only going to
> become more and more expensive to run, every year,
> and require 20 million dollar renovations every
> once in a while, but the number of students served
> is static (and eventually will decline), and thus
> inflation is working against the school.
>
> It's sad that those with extra money are also
> going to lose out on the good fortune of having
> their children schooled exclusively at taxpayer
> expense while the rest are schooled in overcrowded
> schools. But I just don't have any sympathy.

You clearly didn't read the whole study. Because if you had, you would know that the entire study is a contradiction of itself. On page 14 of the study, it states that the renovations would cost approximately $35,500 per student, which is comparable to other school renovations currently taking place countywide.

If you're upset that the school board won't help your overcrowded schools, then tell them. There should be new a new school built to help the overcrowding. But there are schools adjacent to the schools which are overcrowded that have room for more students. Those schools are much closer to the schools that are overcrowded than the site next to Liberty Middle School.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: justanobserver ()
Date: July 12, 2009 11:04PM

Don't be fooled. Demographics is the only issue. Look at the statistics in the fcps report. Clifton ES is 78% white. All the other schools listed have much more diverse school populations. The county wants to mix them up. The people of Clifton want to keep it separate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Thurston Moore ()
Date: July 12, 2009 11:17PM

Clifton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You clearly didn't read the whole study. Because
> if you had, you would know that the entire study
> is a contradiction of itself. On page 14 of the
> study, it states that the renovations would cost
> approximately $35,500 per student, which is
> comparable to other school renovations currently
> taking place countywide.

I just did the math according to your original comment. 375 students, 19 million dollars, $50,666 per student.

>
> If you're upset that the school board won't help
> your overcrowded schools, then tell them. There
> should be new a new school built to help the
> overcrowding. But there are schools adjacent to
> the schools which are overcrowded that have room
> for more students. Those schools are much closer
> to the schools that are overcrowded than the site
> next to Liberty Middle School.

You aren't going to get very much sympathy when people realize that this is about protecting a special entitlement that the people of Clifton fight hard to protect (I'm sure you guys fight any time they propose widening the district boundaries to include "undesirable" children in your precious little school. I bet allowing parts of Fairfax Station was seen as an affront to your special elitist school.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:03AM

The report seems to be poorly proofread especially on page 12 at the bottom where it discusses why the school cannot be expanded laterally.

It also contradicts itself on the sewage system. first it says the school has a sewer line which runs to the town's pump and haul tank in the park. But then it says the school has a septic system between the school and the ball fields. Which is it?

this map says it has a sewer system: http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume21/images/large/ww-119a.jpg


4th: Clifton Elementary consistently scores, on average, 10% higher than Fairfax County averages on test scores.

5th: The students at Clifton Elementary are excelling, because it is a small school where each child gets individual attention.


The test scores are higher becuase the school is all white kids from a rich area where everyone speaks english and can read. Thats why they get good grades, test scores, and are excelling.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 11:39AM

I don't think race truly has a part of it, I think the social atmosphere does though. Yes, Clifton is an area whose residents consist mainly of white upper middle class-wealthy families who support good family values, morals, and the good upbringing of their children.

This therefore vastly excludes negative influences from leaking into the Clifton area, and therefore causing no harm to its residents, and its schools (until they are shipped off to the overcrowded and lower income area schools). Such negative influences that Clifton lacks for example are drugs and gangs.

Clifton doesn't have gangs, nor does it have a bad drug problem. While we are talking about an elementary school here, if there was a Clifton high school to be invented it would probably be another Langley High School, where such negative influences aren't as common and instead academic success and a strong sense of community are common.

Don't blame Clifton residents and their kids for being decent people. Maybe there can be a lesson learned from Clifton Elementary and the Clifton Community model. A small school, with the right types of good and moral abiding wholesome families, in a strong and connected community can produce excellent results for its residents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 11:41AM by RobertGreyberg.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 11:43AM

Fairfax Whiners - "Don't raise my taxes! Don't cut any spending that impacts me! Do your jobs! Waaaaaaa!"

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 11:45AM

Well there would be a lot less complaining if the county actually did their jobs and didn't screw things up all the time. If there is one thing Fairfax County Public Schools should be proud of it is Clifton Elementary and its students.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 11:50AM

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well there would be a lot less complaining if the
> county actually did their jobs and didn't screw
> things up all the time. If there is one thing
> Fairfax County Public Schools should be proud of
> it is Clifton Elementary and its students.


If it's half empty and the building costs too much to repair, this makes perfect sense.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Loft ()
Date: July 13, 2009 11:58AM

"If there is one thing Fairfax County Public Schools should be proud of it is Clifton Elementary and its students."


False. Utterly and completely false. Clifton's success is in spite of, not because of,the Fairf County Public School system. The Clinfton community, schools included, will continue to be peaceful and prosperous and long as it continues to be a white community (like Langley). When diversity rears its ugly and hateful head in Clifton, that will be the end of Clifton (just like Annandale, Arlington, Falls Church, and Springfield).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:05PM

So you're suggesting to bring back segregation then?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 12:05PM by RobertGreyberg.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Loft ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:08PM

Spare me your sanctimonious posturing pal, it fools only yourself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:12PM

Perhaps you would like to fly the Confederate Flag at all these "white" schools also huh????

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: formerhick76 ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:15PM

Loft Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If there is one thing Fairfax County Public
> Schools should be proud of it is Clifton
> Elementary and its students."
>
>
> False. Utterly and completely false. Clifton's
> success is in spite of, not because of,the Fairf
> County Public School system. The Clinfton
> community, schools included, will continue to be
> peaceful and prosperous and long as it continues
> to be a white community (like Langley). When
> diversity rears its ugly and hateful head in
> Clifton, that will be the end of Clifton (just
> like Annandale, Arlington, Falls Church, and
> Springfield).

In other words, multi-culturalism is a doomed endeavor and we should return to the norms of the past 8,000 years -- i.e. being suspicious of 'the other.'

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:20PM

As the previous poster just stated, that is a practice known as racism and racial segregation.

Look you could be White, Black, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Asian, whatever the race, as long as you have good morals, a good upbringing, and are shielded from negative influences and are put in the right academic and social environment then you'll be fine.

The environment kids are put in is the problem not the ethnicity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 12:20PM by RobertGreyberg.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:22PM

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't blame Clifton residents and their kids for
> being decent people. Maybe there can be a lesson
> learned from Clifton Elementary and the Clifton
> Community model. A small school, with the right
> types of good and moral abiding wholesome
> families, in a strong and connected community can
> produce excellent results for its residents.


So what do we do then with the others, who happen to be hispanic and/or black?
Its not racist, it just happens to involve race

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: interesting question ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:26PM

Formerhick and Greyberg....I agree that Loft has a fatalistic approach. But at some level he is speaking to some uncomfortable truths. Hard to argue with his sanctimonious posturing comment - the statistics to a large extent back up his points.

What is the right response when race is overwhelmingly a proxy for poor academic achievement and conduct, not just in Fairfax but throughout the nation? It is not like the County isn't spending a lot of money to improve achievement and conduct, either.

Parents ought to be tolerant but at what point do their concerns become rational from a statistical perspective? This isn't just an abstract question because when schools reach a tipping point they become unattractive and caring parents do opt out - either through the political process, private school, or whatever other means.

Interested to hear your perspectives.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Loft ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:26PM

Fly The Confederate Flag? Absolutely. Perhaps you have never noticed, but George Washington, the Father of Our Country, was a slaveowning secessionist. Oh, and that little secessionists document we call The Declaration of Independence, yup you guessed it; written by a slaveowning secessionist.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:30PM

I understand what you are saying KeepOnTruckin, you and I as always tend to understand agree on the same concepts in threads. But let me state this.

You're always going to have people of lower incomes/different upbringings in a community and at a school. This isn't the Upper East Side of Manhattan or Greenwich, Connecticut where the whole population is wealthy and well brought up.

These lower income and different upbringing students, therefore once placed in this environment are influenced by the well brought up people they are surrounded by, and excel in the good academic environment they are placed in.

Therefore breaking the low income/different upbringing cycle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 12:35PM by RobertGreyberg.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: tubby ()
Date: July 13, 2009 12:33PM

I remember Clifton in the 50's and 60's....Tobacco Road....shacks.

Many black people (GASP) lived down there! Why do you think those quaint country roads were never improved?

Then, at some point (70's?) some swells that couldn't afford Great Falls/McLean built a big house down there and gentrification was on.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 12:46PM

Loft Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fly The Confederate Flag? Absolutely. Perhaps you
> have never noticed, but George Washington, the
> Father of Our Country, was a slaveowning
> secessionist. Oh, and that little secessionists
> document we call The Declaration of Independence,
> yup you guessed it; written by a slaveowning
> secessionist.


Then they drafted the Articles of Confederation and tried it for a decade and concluded..."Fuck. This doesn't work. We need a Union." And thus the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, which were adopted by every state, were born.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 01:16PM

Yeah that founding father who wrote that document called the Declaration of Independence, who was a slave owner, hated slaves so much he just had to make one his mistress.

And to answer the poster interesting question's post, I understand what you are saying about the correlation between racial minorities and poor grades, gangs, and drugs.

The problem is not their race. It's their bad upbringing, negative influences, and a lack of a good education.

Education fights ignorance, drugs, and gangs, it does not work though by destroying good schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone Logian ()
Date: July 13, 2009 01:22PM

"Then they drafted the Articles of Confederation and tried it for a decade and concluded..."Fuck. This doesn't work. We need a Union." And thus the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, which were adopted by every state, were born."

Quite superficial and quite incomplete, but I'll help you out. The Articles of Confederation had an express declaration of perpetuity and unanimity(article XIII). Nevertheless, the secessionist slaveowners decided, in 1789, to exercise their unalienable right to alter and abolish their government (again in open violation of article XIII), and adopt the Constitution. The Confederates did the same in 1861.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Loft ()
Date: July 13, 2009 01:25PM

Yeah that founding father who wrote that document called the Declaration of Independence, who was a slave owner, loved slaves so much he just had hold over 300 of them in bondage. Working them to exhaustion in the sweltering Virginia sun, stuffing them into a filthy cramped dirt-floor cabin, raping them, starving them, denying them freedom and liberty. Yeah, a real salve-lover that one.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RobertGreyberg ()
Date: July 13, 2009 01:30PM

Well there's no arguing that. Clearly both you and Washington Tone Logian are products of a good education, you certainly know your history.

So let's keep that intelligence up. Save Clifton Elementary!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 01:30PM by RobertGreyberg.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Clifton parent ()
Date: July 13, 2009 02:09PM

We need a strong showing at the FCPS work session this afternoon in Falls Church. The address is: 8115 Gatehouse Rd. Rm. 1600 Falls Church. The staff is presenting the Feasibility studies to the Board at 3:30. We are asking everyone that comes to the meeting to wear RED to show our support.
This work session is not the time to voice our concerns or opinions, rather just to show how many people are in support of keeping the school open.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 02:21PM

Washington Tone Logian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Quite superficial and quite incomplete, but I'll
> help you out. The Articles of Confederation had an
> express declaration of perpetuity and
> unanimity(article XIII). Nevertheless, the
> secessionist slaveowners decided, in 1789, to
> exercise their unalienable right to alter and
> abolish their government (again in open violation
> of article XIII), and adopt the Constitution. The
> Confederates did the same in 1861.

Talk about "incomplete." That would describe your knowledge of Article XIII...

And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.

Did every state agree to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Yes. Did every state agree to secession and the forming of the Confederacy in 1861? No.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Outside Looking In ()
Date: July 13, 2009 02:22PM

Well I would think if a handful of Clifton parents just brought their check books along to the meeting tonight they could resolve the budget issue quickly and quietly.

No, I kid, but seriously. People pay a lot of money to live in Clifton. They should be privlidged to the cute little school on the hill to send their darlings to. I fear what the alternatives would be.

Save Clifton Elementary. Save the Cardinals. [insert Clifton ES song, forget how it goes]

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Read the playbook folks ()
Date: July 13, 2009 02:31PM

Gee, for an elitist, oh so intelligent community, you Clifton folks lack street smarts.

Read the FCPS playbook guys.

How the heck do you think the South County crew got their high school and their middle school ahead of all the other schools patiently waiting politely on the CIP?

Look no further than the campaign contributors for Storck and Bradsher.

It does not take much to buy a school board election folks. 10-12 $500 checks to Bradsher and Storck should seal the deal for keeping your school intact.

Bradsher's middle name is "community school"- that was her battle cry for years to get her kids out of the hellhole called Hayfield. Funny that she has been noticeably quiet on this matter in Clifton...

Oh well, whip out the checkbooks guys and get this party started. The FCPS redistricting wheels should come to a grinding halt as soon as your checks have cleared the bank.

Good luck.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 02:32PM

Outside Looking In Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well I would think if a handful of Clifton parents
> just brought their check books along to the
> meeting tonight they could resolve the budget
> issue quickly and quietly.
>
> No, I kid, but seriously. People pay a lot of
> money to live in Clifton. They should be
> privlidged to the cute little school on the hill
> to send their darlings to. I fear what the
> alternatives would be.
>
> Save Clifton Elementary. Save the Cardinals.

What would the alternatives be? Union Mill? Pretty good school. Or the dreaded Centreville Elementary? (I see black people!).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Outside Looking In ()
Date: July 13, 2009 02:48PM

Union Mill is a fine school but being the size of Little Rocky Run and the expansion of the surrounding areas I could see space already being at a premium. Other than that, I think someone mentioned a potential building site near Liberty. Both options would be a serious haul for any Cliftonite not living on the C-Ville side of tracks.

But ya, ship um to the ghetto? Trade in those Lacoste polos for some Sean John and Ecko gear, and the Jonas Bros for some Bow-Wow? That would be some shit. Right now the well to do stay at home moms are digesting. The fury will soon turn to a boil. And when they can grab dads attention long enough to get him away from business and his blackberry, crap will really hit the fan and fortunately, for Clifton, the issue will be resolved. These parents will not stand for busing kids out of clifton. We know this. But let the parents have their day in the sun and take on the county resulting in a triumphant win. Then, straight to Trummers for celebratory martinis and steak sliders.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 02:51PM

Outside Looking In Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Union Mill is a fine school but being the size of
> Little Rocky Run and the expansion of the
> surrounding areas I could see space already being
> at a premium. Other than that, I think someone
> mentioned a potential building site near Liberty.
> Both options would be a serious haul for any
> Cliftonite not living on the C-Ville side of
> tracks.
>
> But ya, ship um to the ghetto? Trade in those
> Lacoste polos for some Sean John and Ecko gear,
> and the Jonas Bros for some Bow-Wow? That would be
> some shit. Right now the well to do stay at home
> moms are digesting. The fury will soon turn to a
> boil. And when they can grab dads attention long
> enough to get him away from business and his
> blackberry, crap will really hit the fan and
> fortunately, for Clifton, the issue will be
> resolved. These parents will not stand for busing
> kids out of clifton. We know this. But let the
> parents have their day in the sun and take on the
> county resulting in a triumphant win. Then,
> straight to Trummers for celebratory martinis and
> steak sliders.

Worked in Oakton.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: alkro ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:03PM

I dont think it really matters what happens to the children of Clifton. They will all have decent inheritances to live off of, so they should be spending more time down at 8 acre, or the Peterson ice cream depot, where the milfs go and its just as fun as Neverland. From what I hear....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:08PM

"Talk about "incomplete." That would describe your knowledge of Article XIII...

And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.

Did every state agree to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Yes. Did every state agree to secession and the forming of the Confederacy in 1861?"


Cheese and phukking crackers, are you truly this ignorant? Rhode Island, you brainless schlub, deliberately DID NOT SEND ANY DELEGATES to the constitutional convention. Accordingly, under Article XIII, the convention was utterly without authority to proceed; they did anyway. Moreover, you obtuse dolt, Article VII of the U.S. Constitution provides that when nine States had ratified, the constituion became binding and effective. When the ninth state had ratified (New Hampshire) Rhode Island still had not. This means, you contemptible moron, that the states lawlessly seceded from the AoC and adopted the Constitution.

PS- And every State most certainly agreed to form the C.S.A.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 03:15PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Cheese and phukking crackers, are you truly this
> ignorant? Rhode Island, you brainless schlub,
> deliberately DID NOT SEND ANY DELEGATES to the
> constitutional convention. Accordingly, under
> Article XIII, the convention was utterly without
> authority to proceed; they did anyway. Moreover,
> you obtuse dolt, Article VII of the U.S.
> Constitution provides that when nine States had
> ratified, the constituion became binding and
> effective. When the ninth state had ratified (New
> Hampshire) Rhode Island still had not. This means,
> you contemptible moron, that the states lawlessly
> seceded from the AoC and adopted the Constitution.
>
>
>

Rhode Island eventually ratified it, so what is your fucking issue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Constitution#Ratification

Secession and the CSA were all in violation of the Constitution. It was an illegal act.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:21PM

The convention was in open and flagrant violation of Article XIII and even James Madison acknowledged it; that's the phukkin issue. Now then, please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 03:28PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The convention was in open and flagrant violation
> of Article XIII and even James Madison
> acknowledged it; that's the phukkin issue. Now
> then, please show me where the U.S. Constitution
> prohibits secession.


This should answer your questions...

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 03:30PM

And here is the Supreme Court decision on the matter...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:34PM

I guess I'll ask again; please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:35PM

Oh, do you want a Supreme Court decision that says slaver is perfectly legal and that blacks have no rights? (I can play that bullshit game to).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 03:36PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess I'll ask again; please show me where the
> U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.


Read the fucking article and the Supreme Court decision. Are you that fucking lazy?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 03:37PM

Washington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, do you want a Supreme Court decision that says
> slaver is perfectly legal and that blacks have no
> rights? (I can play that bullshit game to).


Yeah. And then we had Amendments to the Constitution that changed that. Where's the fucking Amendment that made secession Constitutional?

Don't play bullshit games you don't understand.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:41PM

Just show me where the United States Constitution prohibits secession. Are you so phukkin stupid and lazy you can't even do that much? This issue is clearly way, way over you head. Looks like your bullshit has been thrown right back in your face.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:43PM

Ya know, if I told you to show me where the Constitution prohibits Congress from passing a law making Methodism the national religion, I suspect even an ignoramus like you could direct me to the first amendment. Now then, please show me where a State is prohibited from seceding.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 03:45PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just show me where the United States Constitution
> prohibits secession. Are you so phukkin stupid and
> lazy you can't even do that much? This issue is
> clearly way, way over you head. Looks like your
> bullshit has been thrown right back in your face.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White#Majority_opinion

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:51PM

LOL. Can't do it, can ya? All I ask is for you to show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession, and you can't do it. I'll ask again though; please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:52PM

I'm waiting..hehehe...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: idea? ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:54PM

Sincle the Constitution clearly does not prohibit states from seceeding maybe Clifton should seceed from Fairfax County....and take their tax money with them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:55PM

Well? Are you going to show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession or not? *snicker*

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 03:56PM

"Sincle the Constitution clearly does not prohibit states from seceeding maybe Clifton should seceed from Fairfax County....and take their tax money with them."


Actually the U.S. Constitution has nothing to say about it; the Virginia Constitution controlls here.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 04:02PM

Since you are obviously to lazy or stupid to click on a link, here is what the Supreme Court decision said about it being unconstitutional...

The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?

Since every state voted to join the Union and abide by the Constitution, and since that Union goes into perpetuity unless Congress and every state votes to the contrary, secession is unconstitutional.

Also, you need to read the dissenting argument for Texas v. White, because the Justices never brought up any of the inane and unsupported arguments you are trying to make for secession being constitutional.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Demography rules ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:10PM

It's pretty funny to read your claim that Clifton isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the Upper East Side. According to the official school profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1% free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get much more exclusive than that.

Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty funny. It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate if there aren't any at your school.

My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand total of one black child during the 2007-2008 school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go after the school board, you use the slogan "Segregation = Success!"

Here's the school profile:
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13:5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand what you are saying KeepOnTruckin,
> you and I as always tend to understand agree on
> the same concepts in threads. But let me state
> this.
>
> You're always going to have people of lower
> incomes/different upbringings in a community and
> at a school. This isn't the Upper East Side of
> Manhattan or Greenwich, Connecticut where the
> whole population is wealthy and well brought up.
>
> These lower income and different upbringing
> students, therefore once placed in this
> environment are influenced by the well brought up
> people they are surrounded by, and excel in the
> good academic environment they are placed in.
>
> Therefore breaking the low income/different
> upbringing cycle.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:11PM

Now then, please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession. While you are at it, and just for shits and giggles, please show me the section of the constitution that Justice White relied on in his decision. I'll wait.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Fred S ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:15PM

For chrissaskes, would you shut this guy up already and show him? PLEASE!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 04:16PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now then, please show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession. While you are at
> it, and just for shits and giggles, please show me
> the section of the constitution that Justice White
> relied on in his decision. I'll wait.


You can keep waiting. I've pointed out why secession is unconstitutional. If you can't fathom it or somehow think you know something that virtually all judges, lawyers and constitutional scholars don't, have at it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:22PM

"you can keep waiting. I've pointed out why secession is unconstitutional. If you can't fathom it or somehow think you know something that virtually all judges, lawyers and constitutional scholars don't, have at it."


For chrissakes, jst show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:23PM

Ya know what? Put up or shut the phuk up. I now demand you show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 04:24PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "you can keep waiting. I've pointed out why
> secession is unconstitutional. If you can't fathom
> it or somehow think you know something that
> virtually all judges, lawyers and constitutional
> scholars don't, have at it."
>
>
> For chrissakes, jst show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession.


I have. The Supreme Court has. You are a fucking idiot.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:30PM

No, you cowardly asswipe, you have not. I have REPEATEDLY asked you to show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession, and you have gutlessly run from the issue. I note, by the way, when you stupidly challenged me on the meaning of perpetutiy and unanimity of Article XIII, you IMMEDIATELY provided THE TEXT of Article XIII. Now then, you miserable dishonest liar, show me where the TEXT of U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: no kidding ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:32PM

Demography rules Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's pretty funny to read your claim that Clifton
> isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the
> Upper East Side. According to the official school
> profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1%
> free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get
> much more exclusive than that.
>
> Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for
> uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty funny.
> It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate if
> there aren't any at your school.
>
> My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand
> total of one black child during the 2007-2008
> school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out
> of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students
> during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go
> after the school board, you use the slogan
> "Segregation = Success!"
>
> Here's the school profile:
> http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13
> :5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416
>
>
Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that nonsense about what a "high performing school" we are. The whole staff should be fired if you weren't a high performing school given your baseline.

Not a whole lot of challenges at this school. Nevermind that some elementary schools have 1200 kids, it isn't too hard to see that 375 darlings are getting what they need.

It is not cost efficient to keep this school as is. While I support keeping this school in the neighborhood, they need to increase the size to 600 and pull in from some overcrowded neighboring schools.

Clifton community better come up with a Plan B if they want to keep this school in the neighborhood.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 04:35PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you cowardly asswipe, you have not. I have
> REPEATEDLY asked you to show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession, and you have
> gutlessly run from the issue. I note, by the way,
> when you stupidly challenged me on the meaning of
> perpetutiy and unanimity of Article XIII, you
> IMMEDIATELY provided THE TEXT of Article XIII. Now
> then, you miserable dishonest liar, show me where
> the TEXT of U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.


Show me the text of the U.S. Constitution that allows the FCC to fine Broadcast stations for using the word "Fuck off, fucktard."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 04:37PM

Washington Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you cowardly asswipe, you have not. I have
> REPEATEDLY asked you to show me where the U.S.
> Constitution prohibits secession, and you have
> gutlessly run from the issue. I note, by the way,
> when you stupidly challenged me on the meaning of
> perpetutiy and unanimity of Article XIII, you
> IMMEDIATELY provided THE TEXT of Article XIII. Now
> then, you miserable dishonest liar, show me where
> the TEXT of U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Actually, I'll do you one better. Show me where in the Constitution states are allowed to secede? Please show me.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:40PM

Excellent point, and, though you clearly don't fully understand the implications of your question, you, quite by chance,are in fact heading in the right direction. First things first however. I never asserted that the FCC had this right. Conversely, you have asserted that the States do not have the right to secede. So I repeat, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE U.S. CONSTITUTION PROHIBITS SECESSION. I am waiting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washinton Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:44PM

"Actually, I'll do you one better. Show me where in the Constitution states are allowed to secede? Please show me."


Gotcha my ignorant friend, and easily done. It is called the tenth amendment. Here goes:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Now then, the right of, and the power to, secede is not prohibited to the States ANYWHERE in the constitution. Game. Set. Match.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 04:44PM

Washington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent point, and, though you clearly don't
> fully understand the implications of your
> question, you, quite by chance,are in fact heading
> in the right direction. First things first
> however. I never asserted that the FCC had this
> right. Conversely, you have asserted that the
> States do not have the right to secede. So I
> repeat, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE U.S. CONSTITUTION
> PROHIBITS SECESSION. I am waiting.


Show me where secession is allowed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: off topic ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:44PM

Will you two children please take your squabble outside?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:47PM

"Show me where secession is allowed."
OKey dokey. From THE TEXT OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. And thats right in your face.



"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 13, 2009 04:57PM

Washinton Tone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Actually, I'll do you one better. Show me where
> in the Constitution states are allowed to secede?
> Please show me."
>
>
> Gotcha my ignorant friend, and easily done. It is
> called the tenth amendment. Here goes:
>
> "The powers not delegated to the United States by
> the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the
> States, are reserved to the States respectively,
> or to the people."
>
> Now then, the right of, and the power to, secede
> is not prohibited to the States ANYWHERE in the
> constitution. Game. Set. Match.


So by not being part of the Constitution, a state is following the Constitution? How the fuck is that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 04:57PM

BY the way, here is what the States are constitutionally prohibited from doing. Note that the power to secede is not listed:



No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 05:00PM

"So by not being part of the Constitution, a state is following the Constitution? How the fuck is that?"

You're too stupid for this discussion, really. The state secedes, like the colonies seceded from the British empire and the sates seceded from the AoC.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Washington Tone ()
Date: July 13, 2009 05:10PM

Now then; please show me where the U.S. Constitution prohibits secession.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Fighting for Clifton Elementary ()
Date: July 13, 2009 05:28PM

My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand total of one black child during the 2007-2008 school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go after the school board, you use the slogan "Segregation = Success!"

This is NOT true. I got my kid's yearbooks out and came across more black children than those statistics indicate. Perhaps on the census form 'mixed' was marked...I don't know. I wonder what race Barak Obama would check. I think most people consider him black even though he would be 'mixed' race.

Something that I would like to know is what will happen after sixth grade. Would the Clifton children still stay in the Robinson pyramid and the rest of the school go down the street to Centreville High School?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Fighting to save Clifton School ()
Date: July 13, 2009 05:30PM

"My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand total of one black child during the 2007-2008 school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6 out of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black students during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go after the school board, you use the slogan "Segregation = Success!"

This is NOT true. I got my kid's yearbooks out and came across more black children than those statistics indicate. Perhaps on the census form 'mixed' was marked...I don't know. I wonder what race Barak Obama would check. I think most people consider him black even though he would be 'mixed' race.

Something that I would like to know is what will happen after sixth grade. Would the Clifton children still stay in the Robinson pyramid and the rest of the school go down the street to Centreville High School?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: makes sense ()
Date: July 13, 2009 06:29PM

no kidding Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Demography rules Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's pretty funny to read your claim that
> Clifton
> > isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the
> > Upper East Side. According to the official
> school
> > profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1%
> > free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get
> > much more exclusive than that.
> >
> > Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for
> > uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty
> funny.
> > It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate
> if
> > there aren't any at your school.
> >
> > My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand
> > total of one black child during the 2007-2008
> > school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6
> out
> > of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black
> students
> > during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go
> > after the school board, you use the slogan
> > "Segregation = Success!"
> >
> > Here's the school profile:
> >
> http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13
>
> >
> :5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416
>
> >
> >
> Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that
> nonsense about what a "high performing school" we
> are. The whole staff should be fired if you
> weren't a high performing school given your
> baseline.
>
> Not a whole lot of challenges at this school.
> Nevermind that some elementary schools have 1200
> kids, it isn't too hard to see that 375 darlings
> are getting what they need.
>
> It is not cost efficient to keep this school as
> is. While I support keeping this school in the
> neighborhood, they need to increase the size to
> 600 and pull in from some overcrowded neighboring
> schools.
>
> Clifton community better come up with a Plan B if
> they want to keep this school in the neighborhood.


No kidding's post makes sense, and it's on topic.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Clifton parent ()
Date: July 13, 2009 06:44PM

no kidding Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Demography rules Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's pretty funny to read your claim that
> Clifton
> > isn't a wealthy enclave like Greenwich or the
> > Upper East Side. According to the official
> school
> > profile, Clifton was 2.4% ESOL and 2.1%
> > free/reduced lunch in 2007-2008. You don't get
> > much more exclusive than that.
> >
> > Your claim that Clifton ES is an engine for
> > uplifting the less fortunate is also pretty
> funny.
> > It's pretty hard to uplift the less fortunate
> if
> > there aren't any at your school.
> >
> > My favorite statistic: Your school had a grand
> > total of one black child during the 2007-2008
> > school year. ONE. To put it another way, 6
> out
> > of the 7 grades at Clifton had no black
> students
> > during 2007-2008. I suggest that when you go
> > after the school board, you use the slogan
> > "Segregation = Success!"
> >
> > Here's the school profile:
> >
> http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13
>
> >
> :5729520818416586:105:NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:416
>
> >
> >
> Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that
> nonsense about what a "high performing school" we
> are. The whole staff should be fired if you
> weren't a high performing school given your
> baseline.
>
> Not a whole lot of challenges at this school.
> Nevermind that some elementary schools have 1200
> kids, it isn't too hard to see that 375 darlings
> are getting what they need.
>
> It is not cost efficient to keep this school as
> is. While I support keeping this school in the
> neighborhood, they need to increase the size to
> 600 and pull in from some overcrowded neighboring
> schools.
>
> Clifton community better come up with a Plan B if
> they want to keep this school in the neighborhood.


"Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that
nonsense about what a "high performing school" we
are. The whole staff should be fired if you
weren't a high performing school given your
baseline."

Given our baseline? What, are you saying that blacks kids and hispanic kids aren't as intelligent as white kids?!? Give me a break! The kids at Clifton are not excelling because they are white. That is the most racist comment yet on here.

Also, this is not just about Clifton Elementary. This could potentially involve 22 other schools in this area. Residents in Centreville and surrounding areas will be involved in this also when the county decides to do yet another boundary study, and ship those kids to other schools. Building one new school, near Liberty Middle School is not going to solve the overcrowding issues. The site near Liberty isn't even near the schools that are most crowded.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Greta ()
Date: July 13, 2009 06:56PM

"Given our baseline? What, are you saying that blacks kids and hispanic kids aren't as intelligent as white kids?!? Give me a break! The kids at Clifton are not excelling because they are white. That is the most racist comment yet on here."

Yes, given your baseline. And yes, you school excells specifically because it is populated by white children. While we're at it, please do spare everyone your phony limousine-liberalism and your hysterical, self-righteous wails of "racism". Just be honest enough to admit that you live in a peaceful and prosperous white community and that would be horrified to see your kids bused off to Falls Church type school. In other words, knock off the bullshit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: steve k2 ()
Date: July 13, 2009 07:01PM

5th: The students at Clifton Elementary are
> excelling, because it is a small school where each
> child gets individual attention.

Fairfax does not want this few amount of kids going to an elementary school. This is not a private school, they could care less about the student-teacher ratio, it's about the county as a whole and closing down the school could obviously help them or they wouldn't be considering it.

Regarding the fact that it's a Governor school, here's the deal, a group of students from wealthy backgrounds such as in Clifton, are generally smarter than a group of poor students. While there are always exceptions, they should be getting higher tests scores as they are. It's not the school's small population and sending them to other elementary schools could bump up other average test grades a point or two.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Danny Carver ()
Date: July 13, 2009 07:38PM

You all need to remember that diversity is a good thing. All the kids going to the all white Clifton ES are doomed to fail. Long live Hayfield.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Too Much ()
Date: July 13, 2009 10:01PM

Kids are kids. They will learn as well as they are taught. There is no way you can say that any child will do well in a school that has 900 to 1200 k-6 graders in it!! All you do by closing Clifton is make overcrowding worse! Right now FCPS has said they are projected to be 1100 kids over capacity by 2011.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: July 14, 2009 12:33AM

Too Much Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kids are kids. They will learn as well as they are
> taught. There is no way you can say that any child
> will do well in a school that has 900 to 1200 k-6
> graders in it!! All you do by closing Clifton is
> make overcrowding worse! Right now FCPS has said
> they are projected to be 1100 kids over capacity
> by 2011.


Yes, and a good solution to this problem is to renovate and expand Clifton ES. Too bad there's no room on the site to to that, and besides, parents would bitch that "other people" would be attending "their" school.

So, it makes good fiscal sense to relocate the school to where it can be expanded- the Liberty MS site.

Now if parents want to write the checks to expand Clifton ES on the site, by building in the courtyard or a second floor, that would work as well.

But since you just bitched at FCPS about fiscal sense regarding Gatehouse II, you don't really have a leg to stand on regarding this issue. Besides, they can use the vacated school as an administrative center then.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Thurston Moore ()
Date: July 14, 2009 01:34AM

RobertGreyberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think race truly has a part of it, I think
> the social atmosphere does though. Yes, Clifton is
> an area whose residents consist mainly of white
> upper middle class-wealthy families who support
> good family values, morals, and the good
> upbringing of their children.
>

This is why you will not gain any traction with all the "lesser" people of Fairfax County who don't meet your qualifications of having good family values, morals and bringing their children up right. Because you believe this is exclusive to Clifton. Elitist trash talking is the worst form of trash talking.

Do you walk up to street people and lecture them about how you are superior to them because you have three mortgages and a really expensive car leased directly from Mercedes? Or do you lecture the homeless about how your children will never be homeless because you understand the importance of education and high moral standards?

> This therefore vastly excludes negative influences
> from leaking into the Clifton area, and therefore
> causing no harm to its residents, and its schools
> (until they are shipped off to the overcrowded and
> lower income area schools). Such negative
> influences that Clifton lacks for example are
> drugs and gangs.
>

I knew a kid from Clifton, with a really wealthy father, who broke into my neighbor's house to steal his baseball card collection so he could buy crack. I also knew another Clifton resident who used to hang out in Georgetown on his Crotch Rocket, before he killed himself going 140 down West Ox at 3 am, drunk out of his mind. I knew another kid who used to throw raging parties at his parent's 'investment property', but he got expelled from my school for raping a girl and getting her pregnant.

Maybe things have changed since the late 80's and you guys have figured out how to stop time at the clifton town line. I don't know.

> (until they are shipped off to the overcrowded and
> lower income area schools). Such negative

Again, with the elitist bullshit. To be so smug that you call everything else in Fairfax County, one of the most wealthiest counties in the country, "lower income" just proves that you don't have a clue, you are a transplant to this area, you heard Clifton was where rich people live (actually, it's Middleburg, Mclean, Great Falls and Potomac, just so you know), and you fear the implications of your little Hunter or Emma going to one of those "lower income" county schools.

Then send them to a fucking private school. You have the means, unless you are only trying to pretend to be wealthy and are actually mortgaged up the ass. Stop trying to get private school privileges in a public school system. Nobody will sympathize with parents who want to keep an exclusive school at taxpayer's expense. Sorry. Stop being clueless.

> Clifton doesn't have gangs, nor does it have a bad
> drug problem. While we are talking about an
> elementary school here, if there was a Clifton
> high school to be invented it would probably be
> another Langley High School, where such negative
> influences aren't as common and instead academic
> success and a strong sense of community are
> common.
>

You don't want to know the truth about Langley. Believe me, the school administrators do everything in their power to maintain the facade of a good school, but even children of wealthy parents get influenced by VH1, MTV and all the trash culture. There are "gangs" (not real, just wangsta gangs) and there are all kinds of drugs at Langley. There are students who stopped attending but as far as the records and test scores are concerned, they never missed a day. They artificially keep their graduation rates and GPA averages by playing games, making deals with students, etc.

> Don't blame Clifton residents and their kids for
> being decent people. Maybe there can be a lesson
> learned from Clifton Elementary and the Clifton
> Community model. A small school, with the right
> types of good and moral abiding wholesome
> families, in a strong and connected community can
> produce excellent results for its residents.

The lesson learned is that only in Clifton can you be a decent person. Everyone else in this county is white trash. At least, that is what you mean, right?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% that small community schools are the best for getting the most out of students. HOWEVER, what you fail to see is that you are demanding that YOU get it, and deride the rest of the county in the process, and generally don't seem to give a shit that everyone else, those with what you assume are smaller paychecks than you doesn't receive the same privilege, because your paycheck says you deserve it and they don't. And if you live in Clifton and aren't one of only a dozen really rich people, your paycheck isn't much higher than a lot of other people in this county, it's just that where you come from it seems like a whole lot of money. You probably don't realize that making $350,000 a year is not wealthy, because where you come from that's like 20 year's salary for most folks. In Fairfax County, that is probably 5 or 10% of the population, if not more. (All I could find data-wise is that 22% of fairfax county residents earn more than $150,000).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: Thurston Moore is right! ()
Date: July 14, 2009 07:35AM

Langley High School is desperately trying to keep a lid on all the problems they have there--especially drugs. What can you do when the demanding, arrogant mommies and daddies don't want to hear about their perfect, privileged children's REAL issues?

And thank you, Thurston Moore, for calling the Clifton person (Robert Greyburg) out for being a self-righteous, elitist, and self-centered resident. Thinking he is more enlightened than other people by saying: "maybe there's a lesson to be learned--a small school with the RIGHT types of good and moral families, can produce excellent results" ??

Gee, REALLY?! A small community school where students get quality attention can make a difference? We had NO idea! So grateful you told us!!! (sarcasm)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Posted by: RDs are fascinating ()
Date: July 14, 2009 11:12AM

I find these redistrictings positively fascinating. They do seem to bring out the best and worst in people, don't they?

I think the Clifton community would be best served by learing by the examples of the other more recent re3districtings-particularly the madion Island/South Lakes WAR. The MI parents initially started out by complaining about how awful South Lakes/Langston Hughes schools were (they referred to the MS as Ganster Hughes). This caused quite a bit of tension between the camps and the accusations started to fly about racism.

The MI parents then shifted strategy to attack the IB program that was offered at SL vs what they view as the "superior" AP program. They lost the fight and many parents opted to pupil place at other schools using the AP excuse.

Clifton, like all neighborhoods deserves a school in their neighborhood. But we have to be realistic here. Money is extremely tight right now and if a renovation is to be done at this school the money needs to be spent prudently. the existing site is not a good choice because of the water issues and joint bus/car road issues. That is a public health/safety issue that cannot be sismissed. Surely there is another lot of land within Clifton that could serve as a place for the school-maybe owned by the parks?? This is what South County did to get their school-they did a land swap.

The Clifton community better get creative and fast or they will be relocated to Centreville.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Closing of Clifton Elementary School?????
Date: July 14, 2009 11:14AM

I can see this thing rivaling the redistricting thread by the time all is said an done.

Options: ReplyQuote
Pages: 12AllNext
Current Page: 1 of 2


Your Name: 
Your Email (Optional): 
Subject: 
Attach a file
  • No file can be larger than 75 MB
  • All files together cannot be larger than 300 MB
  • 30 more file(s) can be attached to this message
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********   **     **  ********   *******   **    ** 
 **     **  **     **  **        **     **  **   **  
 **     **  **     **  **        **     **  **  **   
 ********   *********  ******     ********  *****    
 **     **  **     **  **               **  **  **   
 **     **  **     **  **        **     **  **   **  
 ********   **     **  **         *******   **    ** 
This forum powered by Phorum.