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irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: responsible owner ()
Date: July 05, 2015 10:33PM

During a July 4th party, some kid under 21 came with a loaded gun. Showing it off like he thought he had so much power. Taking snapchat pics posing with the gun. It was a sigg p290, that he had bought from someone for 150 dollars. This was a party with underage kids with alcohol present.

In VA does one not have to be 21 to purchase a handgun from personal sales?

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Ying Ko Is A Cum Guzzling Fag ()
Date: July 05, 2015 10:51PM

responsible owner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> During a July 4th party, some kid under 21 came
> with a loaded gun. Showing it off like he thought
> he had so much power. Taking snapchat pics posing
> with the gun. It was a sigg p290, that he had
> bought from someone for 150 dollars. This was a
> party with underage kids with alcohol present.
>
> In VA does one not have to be 21 to purchase a
> handgun from personal sales?

It LOOKS like he was okay under the law if he was at least 18, depending on his alcohol consumption, but my douche alarm is going off and he sounds like an enormous douche who has no business being around firearms or even in society. Let's hope some nigger kills him before he harms someone.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 05, 2015 11:02PM

Federal and Va State law requires age 21 to buy a handgun from anyone.

Liberals bitch out the NRA, they want to bury their heads in the sand. Since this country has no mandatory military service, the best thing parents can do is get their kid some kind of firearms safety familiarization. take um to a gun range, the NRA in Fairfax the best there is and let them get a gun safety class and NO they don't have to shoot any guns.

Don't count on FCPS to do this. They are too busy wasting tax money with "education coaches" and PC Democrat politics. As a result kids do die due to tragic stupid "accidents" because of foolish uneducated youths getting a hold of a gun.

With some simple common sense education these deaths can be prevented.


The late USMC Lt Col. Jeff Coopers Rules for handling firearms. He was a firearms expert who established a well known Gun Training School "Gunsite"


RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.


RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.


RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.


RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: responsible owner ()
Date: July 05, 2015 11:19PM

He was also on molly...

Action jackson has just stated the golden rules for responsible gun ownership. This kid however kept dry firing the gun (double action) with an unloaded camber but fully loaded mag.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: idiot! ()
Date: July 06, 2015 12:46AM

You should have popped a cap into his ass!

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Kilton ()
Date: July 06, 2015 08:18PM

responsible owner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In VA does one not have to be 21 to purchase a
> handgun from personal sales?

Age isn't an issue. You do, however, have to weigh at least 200 pounds, and your BMI must be over 27.

Hope this helps!

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Mike O'Meara Show Fan ()
Date: July 06, 2015 10:55PM

Kilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> responsible owner Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In VA does one not have to be 21 to purchase a
> > handgun from personal sales?
>
> Age isn't an issue. You do, however, have to weigh
> at least 200 pounds, and your BMI must be over
> 27.
>
> Hope this helps!

So, like a bodybuilder with 5 percent bodyfat, Kilton you Manipuri faggot?

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: dtngtms ()
Date: July 06, 2015 10:58PM

responsible owner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> During a July 4th party, some kid under 21 came
> with a loaded gun. Showing it off like he thought
> he had so much power. Taking snapchat pics posing
> with the gun. It was a sigg p290, that he had
> bought from someone for 150 dollars. This was a
> party with underage kids with alcohol present.
>
> In VA does one not have to be 21 to purchase a
> handgun from personal sales?

Link or it didn't happen.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 06, 2015 11:29PM

LOL Just knew Kilton would have a say in support of the Hot Dog eaters Of America's right to bear arms. But I wish he would have posted his famous gif of him shooting that Glock 18 full auto like it was nothing to it.

All fun aside it is sad that many people are so stupidly hateful against guns through ignorance, that they would not dare let their child see a gun safety class, they would rather take their chances when they leave the nest at 18 and go to college and "Party" with idiots.

"Bless Me" did I say "stupidly hateful through ignorance" Sounds like I was talking about the early days of the Civil Rights movement and people who hated blacks and wanted to deny their rights.

Bearing Arms is A Important Right the founders gave the American people. Its not the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights for nothing!

As far as eating Hot Dogs that's covered in the Declaration of Independence under "Pursuit of Happiness" and I concur, .. with Sonics Ft Long Hot Dogs with Chili and Mustard only hold the cheese and onions please.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: law dog ()
Date: July 06, 2015 11:47PM

Kilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> responsible owner Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In VA does one not have to be 21 to purchase a
> > handgun from personal sales?
>
> Age isn't an issue. You do, however, have to weigh
> at least 200 pounds, and your BMI must be over
> 27.
>
> Hope this helps!

Stop describing your ideal male sex partner and cite the law.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: SIG SAUER P290 ()
Date: July 07, 2015 12:34AM

I call BS Sig P290 for $150?

You mean I can get a P226 for $500 now?

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: mjs ()
Date: July 07, 2015 07:44AM

I purchased a sig 226 navy for $800 (used)

Chances if the gun was purchased for 150 it was an under the table sale. IE stolen gun...

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Sniff Test ()
Date: July 07, 2015 08:56AM

sorry but the OP's story just smells like complete horse shit.


And yes you can buy a used P226 for around $500 if you shop around some.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Kilton ()
Date: July 07, 2015 03:40PM

Mike O'Meara Show Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, like a bodybuilder with 5 percent bodyfat,
> Kilton you Manipuri faggot?

Aww, no reason to get so upset! You probably haven't had 5 percent body-fat since you were 6 months old. I don't hold it against you though. You just have a "slow metabolism", right?

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: baby fat ()
Date: July 07, 2015 04:23PM

Kilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike O'Meara Show Fan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So, like a bodybuilder with 5 percent bodyfat,
> > Kilton you Manipuri faggot?
>
> Aww, no reason to get so upset! You probably
> haven't had 5 percent body-fat since you were 6
> months old. I don't hold it against you though.
> You just have a "slow metabolism", right?

If a 6 month old had 5% body fat, he'd be considered malnourished. You do realize that infants of that age aren't very mobile and have very little muscle? A healthy baby is born with about 10% body fat and that increases to about 25% at year one. As the child becomes more active, those numbers drop.

You must've been one of those babies with about 5% body fat because those kids usually don't have normal brain development.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Mike O'Meara Show Fan ()
Date: July 07, 2015 05:20PM

Of course most of those babies aren't Manipuri faggots like Kilton either.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Bull Shit Alert ()
Date: July 07, 2015 05:38PM

OP IS A TROLL

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Kilton ()
Date: July 07, 2015 06:32PM

baby fat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a 6 month old had 5% body fat, he'd be
> considered malnourished. You do realize that
> infants of that age aren't very mobile and have
> very little muscle? A healthy baby is born with
> about 10% body fat and that increases to about 25%
> at year one. As the child becomes more active,
> those numbers drop.

Wow, thanks Mr. Science! I always know I can count on you for some non-work related Googling during business hours from the office downtown.

Does Google happen to indicate why you hit 25% body fat as a child and then never looked back? :-)

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: baby fat ()
Date: July 07, 2015 07:42PM

Kilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, thanks Mr. Science!

No need to get all snarky and butthurt because I exposed your stupidity.

> I always know I can count
> on you for some non-work related Googling during
> business hours from the office downtown.

And we can certainly count on you for showing us just how stupid you are with each and every post. No worries though, you keep trolling hard enough and you're bound to get one thing right...........eventually! Keep your chin up, it just might happen one day! Unfortunately, today ain't that day.

> Does Google happen to indicate why you hit 25%
> body fat as a child and then never looked back?
> :-)

Put a decimal point in there and you'd be more spot on. 0-2 is now way to post, numbnuts. Care to go for strike three? And Google has no explanation for your stupidity either. If you think 5% body fat on an infant is normal, I'm guessing piss poor parental care during your infancy hampered your brain development. You appear to be another case of dipshit parents raising an idiot kid.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Kilton ()
Date: July 08, 2015 07:03AM

baby fat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Put a decimal point in there and you'd be more
> spot on.

Whoa! So you have 25.0% body fat? Nice. I had a feeling.

Don't blame yourself, bucko. It's just genetic, right? :-)

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: baby fat ()
Date: July 08, 2015 09:21AM

Kilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> baby fat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Put a decimal point in there and you'd be more
> > spot on.
>
> Whoa! So you have 25.0% body fat? Nice. I had a
> feeling.

Steeerike 3!

Doubling down on your stupidity I see.

> Don't blame yourself, bucko. It's just genetic,
> right? :-)

Yes, your genetics are the reason for your stupidity.

You shouldn't get all butthurt because I exposed your stupidity.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Gunlover-tards! ()
Date: July 08, 2015 12:43PM

responsible owner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> During a July 4th party, some kid under 21 came
> with a loaded gun. Showing it off like he thought
> he had so much power. Taking snapchat pics posing
> with the gun. It was a sigg p290, that he had
> bought from someone for 150 dollars. This was a
> party with underage kids with alcohol present.
>
> In VA does one not have to be 21 to purchase a
> handgun from personal sales?

You shouldn't let underage kids drink alcohol while playing with guns.

Did the gunlover-tard look like this:

Attachments:
Gun-tards! Lolz!.gif

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: You're a Dbl Action Jackass ()
Date: July 08, 2015 01:06PM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Federal and Va State law requires age 21 to buy a
> handgun from anyone.

You couldn't possibly be MORE incorrect.
Federal law requires you to be 21 to purchase a handgun, so long as the seller is a licensed dealer.

If the seller is NOT a licensed dealer (i.e. a private seller), it is 100% legal for an 18 year to buy a handgun.

Va state law indicates the same thing.

Links for laws, so you can educate yourself, instead of de-educating others.
http://www.salon.com/2013/02/05/18_year_olds_can_buy_handguns/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Virginia

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Oxymoronic ()
Date: July 08, 2015 01:13PM

Irresponsible gun owners.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 08, 2015 04:09PM

This is from the VA State police not Wiki or some fucking "Jack Ass Hair Salon" .

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

You must be 21 to PURCHASE ammunition for a handgun, that's Federal Law. From Anyone. As far as private sales go you can do anything you don't get caught doing if your breaking the law.

IF THEY CAN'T TAKE A JOKE...I'M FUCKED!

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Limitations ()
Date: July 08, 2015 05:03PM

Code of Virginia

Table of Contents Title 18.2. Crimes and Offenses Generally Chapter 7. Crimes Involving Health and Safety § 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty

§ 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport a handgun or assault firearm anywhere in the Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section, "handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made and intended to fire single or multiple projectiles by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand and "assault firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic centerfire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered. A violation of this section shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor.

This section shall not apply to:

1. Any person (i) while in his home or on his property; (ii) while in the home or on the property of his parent, grandparent, or legal guardian; or (iii) while on the property of another who has provided prior permission, and with the prior permission of his parent or legal guardian if the person has the landowner's written permission on his person while on such property;

2. Any person who, while accompanied by an adult, is at, or going to and from, a lawful shooting range or firearms educational class, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported;

3. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or going to and from a hunting area or preserve, provided that the weapons are unloaded while being transported; and

4. Any person while carrying out his duties in the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard of this Commonwealth or any other state.

1993, cc. 467, 494; 2003, c. 976; 2004, c. 995.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Mike O'Meara Show Fan ()
Date: July 08, 2015 07:05PM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is from the VA State police not Wiki or some
> fucking "Jack Ass Hair Salon" .
>
> http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
>
> You must be 21 to PURCHASE ammunition for a
> handgun, that's Federal Law. From Anyone. As far
> as private sales go you can do anything you don't
> get caught doing if your breaking the law.

Again, only applies to purchases from FFL dealers. You seem hellbent on demonstrating what a stupid fuck you are.

http://smartgunlaws.org/federal-law-on-minimum-age-to-purchase-possess/

''Dealers are prohibited from selling or delivering firearms other than shotguns or rifles (e.g., handguns) or ammunition for those firearms to any person the dealer knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 21.2 Unlicensed persons may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18.3 Exceptions are provided for temporary transfers made for specified activities, including employment, ranching, farming, target practice and hunting.4''

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 08, 2015 07:54PM

No your wrong. It applies to ANY SALE OF AMMO for a handgun OTHER then 22 LR. that the seller believes will only be used in a rifle. That's the Federal Law. Go ahead people SELL a Adam Lanza type some handgun ammo if there under 21 , IF the Feds catch up with you later because some major crime occurred your ass will burn.

And You don't need a FFL license to only sell ammo. Plenty of mom and pops in the country sell only ammo and no guns.

So yes a 18 yr old can legally buy a .22 LR handgun in a private sale in Virginia, and they can lie and buy .22 LR ammo. As well as a center fire handgun in Va.in a private sale. But not any centerfire handgun ammo from ANYONE.

Now a gift of centerfire handgun ammo to a person under 21 would be a good question of the legality of giving the gift and consequences if the under 21 person committed a crime with it in a handgun.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/license-required-engage-business-selling-small-arms-ammunition

I am fairly knowledgeable of laws applying to firearms sales as I once had a FFL AND a Fairfax County Hand Gun Dealers License in a business I owned some time back when Fairfax County had the three day wait for buying a handgun. And I always obeyed all local state and federal laws with a 100% compliance record with the BATF.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Dead Man Walking ()
Date: July 08, 2015 09:46PM

If one idiot has a gun then you should arm all idiots,
or it isn't good sport.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Mike O'Meara Show Fan ()
Date: July 08, 2015 10:15PM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No your wrong. It applies to ANY SALE OF AMMO for
> a handgun OTHER then 22 LR. that the seller
> believes will only be used in a rifle. That's the
> Federal Law. Go ahead people SELL a Adam Lanza
> type some handgun ammo if there under 21 , IF the
> Feds catch up with you later because some major
> crime occurred your ass will burn.
>
> And You don't need a FFL license to only sell
> ammo. Plenty of mom and pops in the country sell
> only ammo and no guns.
>
> So yes a 18 yr old can legally buy a .22 LR
> handgun in a private sale in Virginia, and they
> can lie and buy .22 LR ammo. As well as a center
> fire handgun in Va.in a private sale. But not any
> centerfire handgun ammo from ANYONE.
>
> Now a gift of centerfire handgun ammo to a person
> under 21 would be a good question of the legality
> of giving the gift and consequences if the under
> 21 person committed a crime with it in a handgun.
>
>
> https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/license-required-e
> ngage-business-selling-small-arms-ammunition
>
> I am fairly knowledgeable of laws applying to
> firearms sales as I once had a FFL AND a Fairfax
> County Hand Gun Dealers License in a business I
> owned some time back when Fairfax County had the
> three day wait for buying a handgun. And I always
> obeyed all local state and federal laws with a
> 100% compliance record with the BATF.

You really are a stupid fuck. Can't even tell the difference between the number 21 and the number 18.

''Unlicensed [STUPID FUCK ALERT] persons may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18.'' SEE THAT PART WHERE IT SAYS UNDER 18???????? AS OPPOSED TO UNDER 21????????

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Time to feed the cow ()
Date: July 08, 2015 10:31PM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AND a Fairfax
> County Hand Gun Dealers License in a business I
> owned some time back when Fairfax County had the
> three day wait for buying a handgun. And I always
> obeyed all local state and federal laws with a
> 100% compliance record with the BATF.


Holy Fuck!!! How long ago was this? I have lived in Fairfax County for 20 years now and I have never ever heard of such a law in those 20 years.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: 1607 - 2015? ()
Date: July 08, 2015 10:44PM

Time to feed the cow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Double Action Jackson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > AND a Fairfax
> > County Hand Gun Dealers License in a business I
> > owned some time back when Fairfax County had
> the
> > three day wait for buying a handgun. And I
> always
> > obeyed all local state and federal laws with a
> > 100% compliance record with the BATF.
>
>
> Holy Fuck!!! How long ago was this? I have lived
> in Fairfax County for 20 years now and I have
> never ever heard of such a law in those 20 years.

This was once the county requirement, junior. It's good they abolished the "blue laws" so your mother could buy your Pampers on Sunday.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 08, 2015 11:22PM

You have to be 21 to buy Ammo for a Handgun by Federal Law. Private Sale or Not. You can buy a handgun at age 18 as I stated already under Va law through a private sale.

It does not matter what Va law states about handgun ammo. The Va law exists so they can prosecute under Va Law. for sales under age 18.Va law does not care about handgun ammo sales above age 18 BUT Federal Law supersedes State and age 21 is Required by Federal Law to buy handgun ammo from ANY SOURCE and a LICENSE TO SELL Ammo IS NOT NEEDED. Other then .22 LR as I describe above that can be bought if the seller believes that it will only be used in a rifle.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Holy Fuck!!! How long ago was this? I have lived in Fairfax County for 20 years now and I have never ever heard of such a law in those 20 years.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The three day wait went away when the General Assembly passed a law signed by the Governor that only allows the General Assembly to write Gun laws in Va. It overturned the 3 day wait as a result.

At the time the Instacheck went into effect allowing instant records checking of gun buyers. The 3 day wait was required in Fairfax County, Alexandria City Arlington County and other places in Va.

That's one reason Clark Bros in the Warrenton Area on Rt 29 did so well , no 3 day check, people could drive out there and come home with a pistol the same day as well as other areas outside of the three day wait zones.

It was described as a cooling off period when these laws were passed in the early 1970's. And a reason some sporting goods places like Herman Atlas went out of business as they got rid of their pistols as they did not want to be hassled with the 3 day wait and the Fairfax County Handgun Dealers license that all managers in stores had to get. No handguns or guns and they slumped and went out as many others have done or are doing Look at Sports Authority. The had the permits and sold handguns when they first opened then got rid of all their guns and most fishing tackle too, they are hanging on by their fingernails today. There's nothing in their stores sportsmen and women can't get somewhere else.

Fairfax County used the same 10 page application they used for a police officers job with full background checks on everything and 3 references were sent letters from the county, and reference's were checked out. You had to have a zoning permit for a retail place of business and a retail store to get the Fairfax County Handgun license. The County put as many hurdles as they could to keep people from getting the Handgun sales license.

Lots of people in FXCO had FFLs at the time and sold out of their homes but the BATF let it go till later. Today you have to be in full compliance with all local and state zoning and business license codes to get a FFL and that closed the door to many home sellers.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 08, 2015 11:43PM

>Today you have to be in full compliance with all local and state zoning and business license codes to get a FFL and that closed the door to many home sellers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, I forgot gun show sales. I never did any of those, all my transactions were from my place of business. I am not sure of the requirements for gun show transactions only.

It may be that yes you can get a FFL for your home as a office with no customers coming there directly unless the jurisdiction you live in allows that for gun show sales only with the gun show address as a business address.

Fairfax County does have Home occupancy Business License Permits and today a employee may come to the home, but other zoning is needed for "customers" to come to the home.

Areas without strict zoning requirements are different then FXCO of course.

Many gun show sellers do have retail stores so the gun show sales are extensions of their retail licenses..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2015 11:49PM by Double Action Jackson.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: plenty of home ffls ()
Date: July 08, 2015 11:56PM

There are plenty of home ffls in Fairfax that only do transfers

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 08, 2015 11:57PM

Oh Young man "Show Fan" Your link does not work , mine above your post does to the BATF "showing" a FFL is not needed a "license" to sell ammo so there is no "licensed or unlicensed" Ammo sales.

FEDERAL LAW IS AGE 21 TO BUY HANDGUN AMMO.PERIOD.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Home FFLS ()
Date: July 09, 2015 12:04AM

True, There is no need to have an FFL to sell ammo from a retail location

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 09, 2015 12:06AM

>There are plenty of home ffls in Fairfax that only do transfers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a new area to me transfers only, but it makes sense. Its keeping the Federal paperwork trail so a gun is legally transferred on the Federal Books from one owner to another in a private sale so if something happens down the road the Feds will not come after the first owner. But where does the Fairfax County zoning code come in that says no customers can come to the home?? Or now can they? I don't know.

Federal Firearms dealer transfers are not "Gun Show Loop holes" for any one interested. They are on the Federal books sales and the instant checks are made same as buying a gun in a federally licensed gun store. Or from a FFL dealer at a Gun Show.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Home FFL ()
Date: July 09, 2015 12:12AM

Im not sure exactly how the county code is worded for home businesses, but I suppose someone could get an FFL and list their home as the business address with the ATF, but just not go through the hoops with the county? Or perhaps the county lets small home business operate without zoning changes?

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Mike O'Meara Show Fan ()
Date: July 09, 2015 01:27AM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh Young man "Show Fan" Your link does not work ,
> mine above your post does to the BATF "showing" a
> FFL is not needed a "license" to sell ammo so
> there is no "licensed or unlicensed" Ammo sales.
>
>
> FEDERAL LAW IS AGE 21 TO BUY HANDGUN AMMO.PERIOD.

No, no, no you stupid fuck. An 18 year old can buy ammunition from a NON-LICENSEE, which means a random hobo or a mom-and-pop ammo only shop.

Federal minimum age laws governing firearms also apply to ammunition used for those firearms. Federally licensed firearms dealers (FFLs) are prohibited from selling or transferring a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any person the dealer knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18.5 Federal law provides no age limitations with respect to the sale of a long gun or long gun ammunition by an unlicensed person.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922


DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY



Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms



27 CFR Part 178



[T.D. ATF-402; Ref: Notice No. 855]

RIN 1512-AB68





Posting of Signs and Written Notification to Purchasers of

Handguns



AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), Department of

the Treasury.



ACTION: Final rule.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------



SUMMARY: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is amending

the firearms regulations to require that signs be posted on the

premises of Federal firearms licensees and that written notification be

issued with each handgun sold advising of the provisions of the Youth

Handgun Safety Act.



EFFECTIVE DATE: September 11, 1998.



FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Marsha D. Baker, Regulations Division,

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Washington, DC 20226 (202-927-

8210).



SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:



Background



The Youth Handgun Safety Act (YHSA), 18 U.S.C. 922(x), generally

makes it unlawful for a person to transfer a handgun to anyone under 18

years of age or for anyone under 18 years of age to knowingly possess a

handgun. Certain exceptions are set forth in the statute.

In enacting the YHSA in 1994, Congress found that criminal misuse

of firearms often starts with the easy availability of guns to juvenile

gang members. In addition, Congress found that individual States and

localities may find it difficult to control this problem by themselves.

Therefore, Congress found it necessary and appropriate to assist the

States in controlling violent crime by stopping the commerce in

handguns with juveniles nationwide and allowing the possession of

handguns by juveniles only when handguns are possessed and used under

certain limited circumstances.

In a memorandum to the Secretary of the Treasury dated June 11,

1997, the President stated that a major problem in our nation is the

ease with which young people gain illegal access to guns. The President

observed that firearms are now responsible for 12 percent of fatalities

among American children and teenagers.

The President's memorandum directed the Secretary of the Treasury

to propose regulations that would require the posting of signs and

issuance of written notices warning handgun purchasers of the

provisions of the YHSA.



Notice of Proposed Rulemaking



In response to the concerns raised by the President's memorandum,

ATF published Notice No. 855 in the Federal Register (62 FR 45364) on

August 27, 1997. To enforce the provisions of the YHSA and to ensure

that handgun purchasers are familiar with its provisions, the Notice of

Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) proposed regulations requiring that signs be

posted on the premises of Federal firearms licensees and that written

notification be issued by licensees to nonlicensed handgun purchasers

warning as follows:



(1) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited

circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly

possessing a handgun, or any person from transferring a handgun to a

person under 18;

(2) A violation of the prohibition against transferring a

handgun to a person under the age of 18 is, under certain

circumstances, punishable by up to 10 years in prison;

(3) Handguns are a leading contributor to juvenile violence and

fatalities; and

(4) Safely storing and locking handguns away from children can

help ensure compliance with Federal law.



The proposed rule stipulated that signs provided by ATF must be

posted by licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers on their

licensed premises where prospective handgun purchasers can readily see

them. In addition, the written notification to be issued to each

handgun purchaser must be made available either by providing the

purchaser with an ATF Publication or some other type of written

notification that contains the same language, e.g., a manufacturer's or

importer's instruction manual or brochure provided to the handgun

purchaser.



Analysis of Comments



ATF received sixty-two (62) comments during the comment period in

response to Notice No. 855. These comments were received from fifty-

three (53) members of the public, one (1) Member of Congress, four (4)

Federal firearms licensees (FFLs), and four (4) firearms industry

organizations. Five (5) of the respondents were in agreement with the

proposed regulations. Fifty-seven (57) respondents opposed certain

provisions of the proposed regulations.



Comments in Support of the Proposed Rule



The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) commented in favor of the

proposed regulations. The AAP stated that ``Firearms play a major role

in childhood morbidity and mortality in the United States.'' They went

on to comment that ``the surest way to reduce the effects of firearm-

trauma on children is to remove handguns from the environments in which

children live and play.'' The Academy also supported the inclusion of

curios and relics in the proposed rule as well as the notification at

the time that weapons are returned to their owners by an FFL (for

example, when a firearm is redeemed from pawn).

Handgun Control Inc. (HCI) also commented in support of the

proposed regulations. They agreed that ATF had the authority to issue

regulations necessary to implement the Gun Control Act (GCA). They

stated that ``notification to handgun buyers at the point of purchase

of the need to safely secure handguns away from children is certainly

necessary to implement the provisions of the statute.''

HCI suggested that the written notice provided to the purchasers of

handguns not be included as part of a larger Federal form, but should

instead be separately contained in one publication. In response to this

comment, it should be noted that the NPRM did not specify the

publication number of the proposed required written notice since one

had not yet been assigned. However, the final rule clarifies that the

written notice will appear on an ATF publication (ATF I 5300.2) that is

separate from any existing ATF form.

Seven (7) additional respondents agreed with the general purpose of

the proposed regulations; to reduce the ease with which juveniles have

access to handguns which are then used to commit crimes or which result

in youth fatalities. However, they were opposed to the wording of the

provisions outlined in the proposed rule. Rephrasing of the provisional

language and certain deletions were suggested.

For example, Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc., a manufacturer of

firearms, commented that ``while we have no objection to reminding

dealers of their serious responsibilities regarding sales of firearms

to unauthorized persons, the proposed language goes far beyond that.''

Accordingly, they suggested several revisions of the proposed

regulations. The suggested revisions to the language of the notice and

sign will be discussed in detail below.



[[Page 37741]]



Comments in Opposition to the Proposed Rule



Several commenters challenged ATF's authority under the GCA to

require any sort of warning or notification to purchasers of handguns

regarding the requirements of the YHSA. A comment from Rep. John

Dingell urged ATF to withdraw the proposed rule for several reasons,

including his view that the statutory basis for ATF's action is

``uncertain.'' He noted that ATF has not required notices or signs to

warn purchasers about other GCA provisions and the statutory

prohibitions on the possession of firearms by certain categories of

people, including felons.

ATF does not agree that requiring licensees to inform prospective

handgun purchasers about the requirements of the law goes beyond its

authority to enforce the GCA. Furthermore, this type of requirement is

not unprecedented. While ATF has not required licensees to post signs

or hand out notices regarding other GCA provisions, many of these

provisions are made known to purchasers through other means. For

example, licensees are required to have unlicensed purchasers complete

an ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record. On this form, purchasers

certify that they do not fall within one of the categories of persons

prohibited from purchasing a firearm. The Form 4473 contains a detailed

explanation of various GCA provisions.

ATF believes that it is important to advise handgun purchasers of

the still relatively new requirements of the YHSA to ensure that adult

purchasers who are purchasing a handgun from a licensee are made aware

that it is unlawful to transfer handguns to juveniles. This statutory

provision is not addressed on the Form 4473. ATF believes that the

final rule will accomplish the goal of preventing inadvertent

violations of the law without unduly burdening licensees or handgun

purchasers. Furthermore, ATF's statutory authority to issue regulations

to implement the GCA is clear. See 18 U.S.C. 926(a).



Revisions Made in Response to Comments



After carefully considering the comments received following the

publication of the NPRM, ATF has decided that certain revisions should

be made to the written notification and sign required by the

regulations. These modifications are discussed in more detail below.

In reference to the first paragraph of the proposed notice and

sign, forty-seven (47) commenters suggested that the language was vague

and that the sign Federal firearms licensees would be required to post,

as well as the written notification, should accurately explain the

exceptions included in the YHSA that would allow the lawful transfer

to, or possession by, an individual under the age of 18 years. For

example, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute

(SAAMI) suggested that this item should ``include a thorough, accurate

and objective explanation of these circumstances and/or include the

language of the statute itself.'' The National Rifle Association (NRA)

commented that ``[a]t the very least, the entire text of the law should

be given, especially outlining the full text of these exceptions * *

*''

ATF recognizes that there are exceptions listed in the YHSA that

allow persons under 18 years of age to receive and possess a handgun,

and the proposed language referred to these limited circumstances.

However, ATF believes that a detailed discussion of the exceptions

would have been too long to include in the notice and sign.

Nonetheless, ATF agrees with the respondents who suggested that the

proposed language of the notice and sign might raise questions in the

minds of purchasers as to when it was lawful for a juvenile to possess

a handgun.

Accordingly, ATF is adopting the suggestion of those commenters who

advocated that the written notification set forth the entire language

of the statute. The final rule provides that the required written

notification (ATF I 5300.2) will include the complete language of the

statutory provision appearing at 18 U.S.C. section 922(x), including

the exceptions. Owing to the length of this statutory language, the

sign will merely refer the purchaser to the ATF I 5300.2 for the

complete provisions of the law. The sign will also advise the public

that a copy of this publication may be obtained from the licensee

posting the sign or from the ATF Distribution Center.

In reference to the second provision of the notice and sign, forty-

three (43) of the respondents again stated that the language was vague

and that the sign and written notification should more specifically set

forth the exceptions included in the YHSA that would allow the lawful

possession of a handgun by a juvenile in certain limited circumstances.

In addition, four (4) respondents stated that the reference to the

maximum penalty provided by law for a violation of section 922(x) was

misleading, since the maximum penalty only applied in limited

circumstances.

As previously noted, the final rule provides that the written

notification will contain the entire language of section 922(x), so

that interested handgun purchasers may read for themselves the

exceptions outlined in the statute. ATF has also included in the

written notification the full text of the penalty provision set forth

in 18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6) for violations of section 922(x). Again, the

sign will refer the purchaser to the complete language of the law as

outlined in the written notification. We believe that this will ensure

that purchasers of handguns receive complete and accurate information

as to the statutory penalties imposed on violations of section 922(x).

The NRA noted that the proposed regulations do not mention the

statutory restrictions on the transfer to juveniles and use by

juveniles of ammunition that is suitable only in a handgun. As noted

previously, the entire provisions of the law will be set forth in the

written notification. This includes the statutory provisions regarding

handgun ammunition.

In reference to the third provision of the proposed regulations,

seventeen (17) respondents opposed the inclusion of the language that

``handguns are a leading contributor to juvenile violence and

fatalities.'' Another fifteen (15) stated that this provision should be

deleted entirely. Many commenters suggested that the entire statement

offered value judgments, and argued that it was the perpetrators of the

shooting, not the handguns used in the shooting, that contributed to

juvenile violence and fatalities.

The proposed language was not intended to convey the message that

handguns alone are responsible for juvenile violence. In fact the

language noted that handguns were a ``contributor'' to juvenile

violence. However, ATF agrees with the commenters who suggested that

this provision could be clarified. For example, Sturm, Ruger & Company

suggested that the language be modified to refer to the misuse of

illegally possessed firearms. ATF has partially adopted this comment.

As set forth in the final rule, this provision now states that ``The

misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile violence and

fatalities.''

In reference to the fourth and final provision of the proposed

statement, fifteen (15) of the respondents believed that it was

unnecessary to have safety warning notices for firearms. Another twelve

(12) stated that this provision should be deleted entirely.

Many of the commenters noted that there is no Federal law mandating

a specific type of storage or locking requirement for handguns. For

example,



[[Page 37742]]



the NRA commented that ``the proposed warning concerning the safe

storage and locking of handguns is not only superfluous, but also

implies that there is a Federal law requiring these safety measures.''

However, some comments supported the inclusion of a generic

statement encouraging the safe storing and securing of firearms in

order to prevent accidents. For example, SAAMI stated that they would

support the ``nclusion of a statement that safely storing and

securing firearms can prevent accidents.'' On the other hand, HCI

suggested that the notice be revised to more explicitly state what is

meant by ``safely storing and locking handguns away from children.''

ATF does not agree that the original proposed language implied that

there was a Federal law requiring that handguns be stored or locked in

a particular fashion. However, in response to the comments received on

this issue, the final rule modifies the language of this provision to

state that ``Safely storing and securing firearms away from children

will help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles,

stop accidents, and save lives.'' This statement encourages handgun

owners to ensure compliance with the law as well as to promote general

gun safety.

Finally, the order of the four provisions has been rearranged for

purposes of clarity. The revised language of the sign and notice is

reflected in the regulations portion of this Treasury Decision.



Regulatory Flexibility Act



It is hereby certified under the provisions of Section 3 of the

Regulatory Flexibility Act, 5 U.S.C. 605(b), that this final rule will

not have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small

entities. The notices and signs that are required in this document will

be provided free of charge by the Federal Government to Federal

firearms licensees. Licensees may choose to provide the required

written notice in another format; however, they always have the option

of using the notices provided by ATF. Moreover, the new requirements

relating to the posting of signs and the distribution of notices will

place only a minimal burden on firearms licensees. Accordingly, a

regulatory flexibility analysis is not required.



Executive Order 12866



It has been determined that this regulation is not a significant

regulatory action as defined by Executive Order 12866. Accordingly,

this regulation is not subject to the analysis required by this

Executive Order.



Paperwork Reduction Act



The provisions of the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995, 44 U.S.C.

chapter 35, and its implementing regulations, 5 CFR part 1320, do not

apply to this final rule because no new reporting or recordkeeping

requirements are imposed.



List of Subjects in 27 CFR Part 178



Administrative practice and procedure, Arms and ammunition,

Authority delegations, Customs duties and inspections, Exports,

Imports, Military personnel, Penalties, Reporting requirements,

Research, Seizures and forfeitures, and Transportation.



Authority and Issuance



PART 178--[AMENDED]



Part 178--Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition is amended as

follows:

Paragraph 1. The authority citation for 27 CFR Part 178 continues

to read as follows:



Authority: 5 U.S.C. 552(a); 18 U.S.C. 847, 921-930; 44 U.S.C.

3504(h).



Par. 2. Section 178.103 is added to Subpart F to read as follows:





Sec. 178.103 Posting of signs and written notification to purchasers

of handguns.



(a) Each licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector who

delivers a handgun to a nonlicensee shall provide such nonlicensee with

written notification as described in paragraph (b) of this section.

(b) The written notification (ATF I 5300.2) required by paragraph

(a) of this section shall state as follows:



(1) The misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile

violence and fatalities.

(2) Safely storing and securing firearms away from children will

help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles, stop

accidents, and save lives.

(3) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited

circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly

possessing a handgun, or any person from transferring a handgun to a

person under 18.

(4) A knowing violation of the prohibition against selling,

delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under

the age of 18 is, under certain circumstances, punishable by up to

10 years in prison.



FEDERAL LAW



The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, provides in

pertinent part as follows:



18 U.S.C. 922(x)



(x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or

otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has

reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile--

(A) a handgun; or

(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to

knowingly possess--

(A) a handgun; or

(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(3) This subsection does not apply to--

(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a

juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a

juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the

juvenile--

(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or

farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or

on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with

the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing

activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target

practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful

use of a handgun;

(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or

guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from

possessing a firearm, except--

(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun

in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place

at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and

transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a

locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity

took place to the transferor; or

(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described

in clause (i) a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition

with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal

guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by

Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm;

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the

juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the

possession of the juvenile; and

(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United

States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a

handgun in the line of duty;

(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a

handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or

(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile

taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an

intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which

the juvenile is an invited guest.

(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is

transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor

is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to

permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the

juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the

juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such

handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the



[[Page 37743]]



Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.

(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term ``juvenile'' means

a person who is less than 18 years of age.

(6)(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the

court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or

legal guardian at all proceedings.

(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph

(A).

(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal

guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of

a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.



18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6)



(6)(A)(i) A juvenile who violates section 922(x) shall be fined

under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, except

that a juvenile described in clause (ii) shall be sentenced to

probation on appropriate conditions and shall not be incarcerated

unless the juvenile fails to comply with a condition of probation.

(ii) A juvenile is described in this clause if--

(I) the offense of which the juvenile is charged is possession

of a handgun or ammunition in violation of section 922(x)(2); and

(II) the juvenile has not been convicted in any court of an

offense (including an offense under section 922(x) or a similar

State law, but not including any other offense consisting of conduct

that if engaged in by an adult would not constitute an offense) or

adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent for conduct that if engaged in

by an adult would constitute an offense.

(B) A person other than a juvenile who knowingly violates

section 922(x)--

(i) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1

year, or both; and

(ii) if the person sold, delivered, or otherwise transferred a

handgun or ammunition to a juvenile knowing or having reasonable

cause to know that the juvenile intended to carry or otherwise

possess or discharge or otherwise use the handgun or ammunition in

the commission of a crime of violence, shall be fined under this

title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.



(c) This written notification shall be delivered to the nonlicensee

on ATF I 5300.2, or in the alternative, the same written notification

may be delivered to the nonlicensee on another type of written

notification, such as a manufacturer's or importer's brochure

accompanying the handgun; a manufacturer's or importer's operational

manual accompanying the handgun; or a sales receipt or invoice applied

to the handgun package or container delivered to a nonlicensee. Any

written notification delivered to a nonlicensee other than on ATF I

5300.2 shall include the language set forth in paragraph (b) of this

section in its entirety. Any written notification other than ATF I

5300.2 shall be legible, clear, and conspicuous, and the required

language shall appear in type size no smaller than 10-point type.

(d) Except as provided in paragraph (f) of this section, each

licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer who delivers a handgun to a

nonlicensee shall display at its licensed premises (including temporary

business locations at gun shows) a sign as described in paragraph (e)

of this section. The sign shall be displayed where customers can

readily see it. Licensed importers, manufacturers, and dealers will be

provided with such signs by ATF. Replacement signs may be requested

from the ATF Distribution Center.

(e) The sign (ATF I 5300.1) required by paragraph (d) of this

section shall state as follows:



(1) The misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile

violence and fatalities.

(2) Safely storing and securing firearms away from children will

help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles, stop

accidents, and save lives.

(3) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited

circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly

possessing a handgun, or any person from transferring a handgun to a

person under 18.

(4) A knowing violation of the prohibition against selling,

delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under

the age of 18 is, under certain circumstances, punishable by up to

10 years in prison.



Note: ATF I 5300.2 provides the complete language of the

statutory prohibitions and exceptions provided in 18 U.S.C. 922(x)

and the penalty provisions of 18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6). The Federal

firearms licensee posting this sign will provide you with a copy of

this publication upon request. Requests for additional copies of ATF

I 5300.2 should be mailed to the ATF Distribution Center, P.O. Box

5950, Springfield, Virginia 22150-5950.



(f) The sign required by paragraph (d) of this section need not be

posted on the premises of any licensed importer, manufacturer, or

dealer whose only dispositions of handguns to nonlicensees are to

nonlicensees who do not appear at the licensed premises and the

dispositions otherwise comply with the provisions of this part.



Signed: May 28, 1998.

John W. Magaw,

Director.



Approved: June 6, 1998.

John P. Simpson,

Deputy Assistant Secretary (Regulatory, Tariff and Trade Enforcement).

[FR Doc. 98-18546 Filed 7-10-98; 8:45 am]

BILLING CODE 4810-31-P

This was last updated on August 25, 1998

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 09, 2015 10:19AM

Ok I have researched and O'Meara Show Fan is right . I am a Stupid Fuck on the age 18 handgun issue. It does appear that a mom and pop or a hobo or Uncle Joe can sell a person who meets a states minimum age handgun ammo. In Virginia that age is 18. It differs state to state and many states have other rules.

No fed license is needed to sell ammo as I did say. Wal Mart others have FFLs so that's why they wont sell to under age 21 handgun ammo.

If a place does have a FFL then the age is 21 for handgun ammo unless its 22LR and will be used in a rifle and the seller knows that.

This is a surprise to me .As I have a case of "Gun Dealer Brain" from many years back. I do remember I had to get others older then 18 to buy me .22LR when I was 15 but that was way back.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: UR still a dbl action Jackass! ()
Date: July 09, 2015 11:13AM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No your wrong. It applies to ANY SALE OF AMMO for
> a handgun OTHER then 22 LR. that the seller
> believes will only be used in a rifle.

As you stated, you are wrong. But more importantly, as I posted ANYONE who is 18, and not a felon, can legally purchase a handgun from a private seller. You can knock the use of "Salon" website, but they are directly quoting the ATF in it. You can look that up on any website you want, it will all be the same.



> I am fairly knowledgeable of laws applying to
> firearms sales as I once had a FFL AND a Fairfax
> County Hand Gun Dealers License in a business I
> owned some time back when Fairfax County had the
> three day wait for buying a handgun. And I always
> obeyed all local state and federal laws with a
> 100% compliance record with the BATF.

I highly doubt you were a FFL if you are also stating this:
"Its keeping the Federal paperwork trail so a gun is legally transferred on the Federal Books from one owner to another in a private sale so if something happens down the road the Feds will not come after the first owner."

Since you were an FFL, why don't you educate us how long records stay on the "Federal Books". Also, please explain what you mean by Federal Books. You do realize there is no "National Database" of guns right, and that the feds don't have a list of gun owners, right?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Ur still a dbl action jackass!! ()
Date: July 09, 2015 11:14AM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No your wrong. It applies to ANY SALE OF AMMO for
> a handgun OTHER then 22 LR. that the seller
> believes will only be used in a rifle.

As you stated, you are wrong. But more importantly, as I posted ANYONE who is 18, and not a felon, can legally purchase a handgun from a private seller. You can knock the use of "Salon" website, but they are directly quoting the ATF in it. You can look that up on any website you want, it will all be the same.



> I am fairly knowledgeable of laws applying to
> firearms sales as I once had a FFL AND a Fairfax
> County Hand Gun Dealers License in a business I
> owned some time back when Fairfax County had the
> three day wait for buying a handgun. And I always
> obeyed all local state and federal laws with a
> 100% compliance record with the BATF.

I highly doubt you were a FFL if you are also stating this:
"Its keeping the Federal paperwork trail so a gun is legally transferred on the Federal Books from one owner to another in a private sale so if something happens down the road the Feds will not come after the first owner."

Since you were an FFL, why don't you educate us how long records stay on the "Federal Books". Also, please explain what you mean by Federal Books. You do realize there is no "National Database" of guns right, and that the feds don't have a list of gun owners, right?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: irresponsible gun owners
Posted by: Mike O'Meara Show Fan ()
Date: July 09, 2015 04:03PM

Double Action Jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok I have researched and O'Meara Show Fan is right
> . I am a Stupid Fuck on the age 18 handgun issue.
> It does appear that a mom and pop or a hobo or
> Uncle Joe can sell a person who meets a states
> minimum age handgun ammo. In Virginia that age is
> 18. It differs state to state and many states have
> other rules.
>
> No fed license is needed to sell ammo as I did
> say. Wal Mart others have FFLs so that's why they
> wont sell to under age 21 handgun ammo.
>
> If a place does have a FFL then the age is 21 for
> handgun ammo unless its 22LR and will be used in a
> rifle and the seller knows that.
>
> This is a surprise to me .As I have a case of
> "Gun Dealer Brain" from many years back. I do
> remember I had to get others older then 18 to buy
> me .22LR when I was 15 but that was way back.

Another friend made. Hello, Friend.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 09, 2015 10:13PM

>Since you were an FFL, why don't you educate us how long records stay on the "Federal Books". Also, please explain what you mean by Federal Books. You do realize there is no "National Database" of guns right, and that the feds don't have a list of gun owners, right?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly. I don't know how long feds keep records. When I had my FFL I was visited on regular basis by the BATF. About ever 6 months They had the right to look at my log books, they looked at them and saw how I kept them. I was told that in some parts of the country I may never see a BATF visit and other places the visits would be regular. In this are it was now and then. The Batf inspector was friendly fellow, he never hassled me. The first question he asked me on his first visit was if I had any dealing with class 3 firearms. I never did , he told me that BATF visits were more common if I had class 3 dealings, now I did not even have a class 3 license so I did wonder why he even asked me about it. probably a set up question for a new dealer. In any event he was a good fellow in my book not a evil ogre, like some would make them out to be. I was always in 100% compliance, despite how the liberal TV movies and media like to portray "Gun Dealers" as horrid creatures dealing in death just out to make a buck. Complete bullshit left wing hype. Yes there's been some bad apples but that goes in any business. As the BATF agent looked at my records he made notes as they are allowed to do. No guns I ever sold then were involved in crimes and they did not take any records from me
. although they could if a gun was involved in a crime and they could question me also, But that never happened.

After I sold my business I surrendered my Fairfax County Handgun Dealers License to the county. I then shipped all my FFL records to the BATF records archive site they told me to send them to by certified mail. If you have a FFL and cease operation you must sent the feds all your records,

That's it I don't know how long they keep the records, I would guess forever and I never was questioned about any sales. that was 25 years ago I gave up the FFL.

The term "Federal Books" are the dealers FFL records as said the BATF has aright to look at them at any time and if a crime occurs take the 4473 forms for crime lab tests ect.

The "Federal Books" a dealer keeps are not sold by the BATF, you have to buy them or make them yourselves. You keep a in and out record of all firearm transactions, In the In book where you got the firearm From Whom Serial Number Model caliber other info and the date you received it. in the Out book you do the same with all dispositions of where any guns went .Plus the Form 4473 # and you keep all the Form 4473's. . There was no instacheck back then so today they probably have to log that info too. If you wanted to keep a gun for yourself as a dealer you had to fill out a 4473 on yourself and transfer the gun out of your log book to yourself. All transactions of firearms had to be logged. And there was a time period in which you had to do it.

So no there no Fed data base unless there doing something under the table.

The word processor here is fucking up eating words and I cant go back to correct. it happens now and then so im over and out for now.

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Re: irresponsible gun owners
Date: July 10, 2015 11:08AM

I will also say that as a FFL dealer you could not make "private sales" all transactions had to be ran through the Federal books . I'm talking about a dealers personally owed guns, You had to put them into the in book received from yourself and log them in the outbook with the 4473 and its number.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-dealer-have-execute-atf-form-4473-take-weapon-out-dealer%E2%80%99s-inventory-his-or-her-own

People who are not incorporated don't have to do the 4473 but they have to log the transaction in their book If they are keeping a gun.

The form 4473's were not serial numbered. You got them from the BATF and you put a number on each one which was the number logged into the books.

If a gun was or today is used in a crime, The Feds first go to the Gun manufacture or importer, they will see what distributor or dealer bought the gun, then the distributor will have the dealer it was sold to. The dealer will have the out book and 4473 showing who bought it. If that person can be found they will be asked what they did with it. If they went to a FFL dealer and had it transferred to a new buyer the feds will go there next and so on until they hit a dead end or find someone who has the gun. If any one went out of business in the loop the Feds will have their records in their archive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2015 11:34AM by Double Action Jackson.

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