You can definitely FOIA the 142's. The subtle elements would be redacted. The points of interest would be accessible to appropriate dominant voices in the occasion of an episode.

The chief needed to sign the 142's. They ought to be kept in the front office with the other trek archives. These exchanges are the property of the educational system, with the primary or more being eventually in charge of legitimate records maintenance. It shouldn't be the obligation of the educator to keep up these vital records. That is the reason they have a front office. Also, it positively isn't the obligation of volunteers. Their employment is to hand everything to the school that they have. They have been informed that. Various times. A large number of them consented to an arrangement saying they comprehended that. It's simply sound judgment.

God just comprehends what individuals rounded out who drove on this field trip. That is still open record. Anything connected with the action is open record. The folks were given a school authorization structure.

This is terrible carelessness.

repeat, OP is out of control. Unhinged.

I would be filing a restraining order if I worked in the FOIA office or any school front office or Booster position.

9E7h7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> repeat, OP is out of control. Unhinged.
>
> I would be filing a restraining order if I worked
> in the FOIA office or any school front office or
> Booster position.


No such thing as a FOIA restraining order in Virginia. Doesn't exist. OP hasn't done anything to deserve being banned from public property, unlike some of the volunteers and the staff.

OP hasn't stolen any money, broken any school regulations, state, or federal laws, hasn't created any fraudulent spreadsheets, hasn't helped themself to public funds, destroyed public records, denied anybody access to public records, etc. There's been a whole lot of that going on, that's for sure, but not with OP.

Hey, Division Counsel has blamed the Boosters for several situations involving non-accessibility of records. He threw them all under the bus he did.

Nighty night.

eMeme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> OP hasn't stolen any money, hasn't
> created any fraudulent spreadsheets, hasn't helped
> themself to public funds, etc. There's been a whole lot of that going on,
> that's for sure, but not with OP.

Just to be clear since you are not - you are making these accusations against the Westfield Band Boosters?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shit%20show

Copeland's Folly

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/A2TT55669213/$file/R5790.pdf

Here are the directions. Of note-

All field trips have to be approved by the principal. This also falls under basic common sense. The organizer has to submit a copy of the proposed 152 along with a 140 or 141 for the principal to sign off on.

Trips organized and sponsored by parent groups, employees in their non-official capacity, etc.- cannot use school forms to convey any information about the trip.

Volunteers and chaperones are prohibited from administering medications (this is ignored).

If private vehicles are used a 142 needs to be completed (they each require the approval signature of the principal) and KEPT ON FILE AT THE SCHOOL.

If you look at the records retention manual, all deposits and payments and supporting documents need to be kept for CY +3 (school level). And "financial records". Current year plus three. Canceled checks must be available for Audit + 5. The bank handles this. Field trips and activities have deposits and payments. These are school activity funds and need to be accounted for just like appropriated funds.

FGF9j Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eMeme Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > OP hasn't stolen any money, hasn't
> > created any fraudulent spreadsheets, hasn't
> helped
> > themself to public funds, etc. There's been
> a whole lot of that going on,
> > that's for sure, but not with OP.
>
> Just to be clear since you are not - you are
> making these accusations against the Westfield
> Band Boosters?


Correct. They WERE demanding money from families and had to have that squashed.

> > Calendar year + 3.
> >
>

CY +3 is actually CURRENT year (fiscal year July 1-June 30.). A little different.

Just curious-do they cover reading the directions in Ed.D. and Master's degree classes? All the staff contracts I would bet have a clause stipulating that employees must comply with school policies. They are right on the FCPS website. They are listed alphabetically, by topic, and by number. Anybody can look them up. Parents, Booster lawyers, kids, staff. Field trip. Records retention. Fee Notice and fee policies. School activity funds. Ticket management.

They are not difficult to understand at all. Many have been recently updated. They are generally well-written, except for when they use mythical terms like "co-sponsorship". I know the Comptroller has been working hard on these.

Why does the information in them seem to come as a huge shock to so many people?

Why do so many people totally fall apart when they are asked to follow them?

How would you like it if your surgeon refused to scrub their hands before they operated on you?

Barbara Brown of Oakton, Virginia:

Why did you use a different name for the last several posts?

¥

Here's what each individual school received for reimbursements from the Equal Opportunity Fund (this is for the kids who can't afford to pay their fees and qualify for assistance). Not all of this is for Music class fees.
Attachments:

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FGF9j Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > eMeme Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > OP hasn't stolen any money, hasn't
> > > created any fraudulent spreadsheets, hasn't
> > helped
> > > themself to public funds, etc. There's
> been
> > a whole lot of that going on,
> > > that's for sure, but not with OP.
> >
> > Just to be clear since you are not - you are
> > making these accusations against the Westfield
> > Band Boosters?
>
>
> Correct. They WERE demanding money from families
> and had to have that squashed.

Further clarification-Westfield Band Boosters are NOT on the list for doing fraudulent spreadsheets, helping themselves to public funds, etc. They WERE demanding money from families and had to be squashed. And they had no business "using their own form" for the drivers after everybody signed a school permission form. The information collected belonged in the school files and should not have been destroyed by volunteers. All the drivers were supposed to be signed off by the principal, so the idea that "the teacher never had access to the information" is even more ludicrous.

This whole thing was a disaster.

I read the question wrong.^^^^^

BTW I think you are pinning this thread on the wrong person. ***** did not have sons, never complained to a teacher when their kid didn't take an exam, volunteered for years without complaining (and very reliably), and was never on a committee. ***** HAS spent many years ensuring that public records are public, holding school staff (and Boosters) to the regulations and state and Federal laws that they are required to follow, insisting on better business practices, and holding the school system accountable. Yes, that means some things have been taken away from Boosters, but you are volunteers. That's all. ***** did not violate any school policies or any laws, unlike a LOT of Boosters and staff. Trying to slam somebody in an attempt to justify your inappropriate behavior is juvenile.

But, you can say whatever you want.

Have a nice weekend.

Haven't seen you say anything about Robinson on here. Huh?

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but you are volunteers. That's all

Disgusting people - those volunteers. I thought the world would be a better place without them until I then realized there were also those incompetent and evil teachers, instructors, principals and administrators. Thank God I'm around. Oh, wait. I'm just a volunteer also.

Barbara Brown of Oakton is quite the individual. Without question, she is all but 2 or 3 posts in this entire thread other than the crowd calling her out for her tactics.

She is abusive. She is a bully. What she does is harassment.

The confusing part is what she does is legal and in some, a few, not many ways, is in the spirit of well-intentioned oversight.

But, she is so vindictive and slanderous about her approach that it is hard to perceive her as much other than a bitch. Really, read through her posts on hear (they are exclusively her aside from the dissenters) and you'll see that she can't make a post without generalizing music teachers as ill intentioned or resist a snarky tag line.

Overcharging/inappropriately charging families and not doing right by them is being bullies (McLean Band-do you hear that?)? It is also illegal.

Ignoring what you were told to do and pressuring families to fill your bank accounts is being bullies and assholes and harassment of families.

There are a lot of people who think that they are above the state educational laws and school regulations because "they mean well" and because "music education is wonderful" (which it is) etc. etc. There are WAY too many people who think that when they are expected to follow school policy that somebody is being mean to them. They aren't being mean. It's called policy and it is required. Get over it.

If you don't like seeing the ugly things you do to kids and parents put out for the public to see, then clean up your acts.

If you think somebody pointing out that you are not compliant with school policy is slander, you are a bully trying to scare people into letting you do inappropriate things to kids and parents. You are a common creep. There are lots of those out there.

Public records are public. Policies are openly public. When procedures don't follow policy, it is public information and these kids and their parents have the right to know. The school system's track record of fixing things that are messed up while they are messed up is lousy (McLean!). They really totally absolutely stink at this. They would rather run and hide and not answer the phone and bully parents and kids than do right by these kids and their parents because there is nothing they love better than a full bank account. This has been shown over and over again. So, you all need to read and heed and be aware of things that aren't right so you can learn to fight your own battles and stick up for your rights (McLean). And that is not harassment.

It is also not being vindictive.

What do you mean these band directors aren't answering all of your phone calls? What are they doing- teaching???

My first FOIA request is for the total cost of BARBARA BROWN'S crusade: how many man hours has she cost the schools and tax payers with her relentless and repetitive FOIA requests? How much teacher time and energy has she stolen from our students?

My second FOIA request is for Barb's nightly diary entry in which she reflects on why no major media outlet has picked up her "exposé" of the local band boosters and she comes to the sinking realization that her efforts are both meaningless and without merit.

I will be sure to share the information, comment anonymously on it, and subsequently validate it while referring to myself in the third person.

If everybody had been doing their jobs properly, and/or things had been fixed promptly instead of stalling for four or five years, there would have not been any need to FOIA.

But, people weren't doing their jobs properly, volunteers weren't doing what they were told to do, Booster lawyers had to make things difficult for the school system (yes, they did), staff tried to "do their own thing" thinking they were above the state educational laws because they teach a music class, principals chose to argue and challenge when asked to fix problems that came up, and people decided to wander around aimlessly instead of getting the job done. The whole situation could have been fixed in a few months. But, instead it has taken years. Yes, this kind of toddler behavior added to the cost and aggravation. It is their own fault.

Oh well. Too damn bad.

When you are breaking the law, you don't stall like this.
You need to get the lead out.

???Is there some rule about an OP using so many different names and carrying on such a public rampage against volunteers? The OP is out of control.


How do you know how many different names OP used?

This isn't a public rampage against volunteers. This is a big wakeup call for volunteers and staff to start paying attention to the school regulations and state educational laws. They have all been rogue for years.

You would think it was the end of the world for people to follow the school system's written protocol.

Westfield staff passed out about 500 FCPS field trip forms for kids and their parents to sign. The principal can't prove he authorized this field trip. The school system can't prove that the proper safety procedures were followed (registered drivers). To top it all off, the principal used school letterhead to direct public funds (school activity funds) to be handed over to a non-profit. He is not allowed to funnel public funds through a non-profit, even if the purpose is to benefit the school system. That is very firm.

Quit throwing temper tantrums. Wake up.

How many names has "out of fucking control" used? Probably a bunch.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This isn't a public rampage against volunteers.
> This is a big wakeup call for volunteers and staff
> to start paying attention to the school
> regulations and state educational laws. They have
> all been rogue for years.
>
> You would think it was the end of the world for
> people to follow the school system's written
> protocol.
>
> Westfield staff passed out about 500 FCPS field
> trip forms for kids and their parents to sign. The
> principal can't prove he authorized this field
> trip. The school system can't prove that the
> proper safety procedures were followed (registered
> drivers). To top it all off, the principal used
> school letterhead to direct public funds (school
> activity funds) to be handed over to a non-profit.
> He is not allowed to funnel public funds through a
> non-profit, even if the purpose is to benefit the
> school system. That is very firm.
>
> Quit throwing temper tantrums. Wake up.

Oh and there is still the issue of the Boosters supposedly destroying whatever records they supposedly obtained on the drivers. Those were the only available records, if indeed they existed at all. Those were part of the public records package.

They had no business doing their own system for this. This wasn't their activity at all. School form=school activity.

They all did a great job of totally screwing this up. Nice.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fubar

Next Onion headline:

"Parent of Graduated Student Knows How To Run School Programs Better Than Legal Teams and Principals"

123456 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Next Onion headline:
>
> "Parent of Graduated Student Knows How To Run
> School Programs Better Than Legal Teams and
>



The Legal teams do not consistently understand their obligations under the Public Records Act. They have displayed this over and over again. They have needed to be reminded of this on a regular basis. Like numerous times. Including having it rammed down their throats.
The principals (and administrators) don't read their regulations (which are developed off of state laws) and/or choose to ignore them, endangering students, parents, and public funds. They have needed to be reminded of this on a regular basis. Including having it rammed down their throats.
A lot of music teachers don't read their regulations and/or choose to ignore them, or think they don't apply to them, when they do. They have needed to be reminded of this on a regular basis. Including having it rammed down their throats.
Gatehouse doesn't read their regulations, and/or chooses to ignore them. They have needed to be reminded of this on a regular basis. Including having it rammed down their throats.

The School Board, the people we elect to make sure these regulations are enforced, the people we turn to when we have exhausted our options with the other levels, do not consistently do what we elected them to do. They have needed to be reminded of this on a regular basis, including having it rammed down their throats.

Come to think of it, Legal doesn't seem to be reading their regulations and policies either. If they have to be reminded, that is their own fault. It is in their contract and this is certainly covered in law school. The others like to say it wasn't covered in their training, which it probably was. Legal should not be using their training to take advantage of kids and their parents. That is reprehensible.

The school regulations, state and Federal laws are designed to protect students and families (and the taxpayers) and ensure their rights.

Don't give up your rights. Ever. If you allow people to take advantage of you, they will jump at the opportunity. Which is what has been going on. And still is. They will bully you and scare you and prey on you and keep you in the dark. Which is what has been going on. And still is. (Hello McLean Band.)

Thought for the Day.
Attachments:

http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?161+sum+HB61

****The confusing part is what she does is legal and in some, a few, not many ways, is in the spirit of well-intentioned oversight.

But, she is so vindictive and slanderous about her approach that it is hard to perceive her as much other than a bitch. Really, read through her posts on hear (they are exclusively her aside from the dissenters) and you'll see that she can't make a post without generalizing music teachers as ill intentioned or resist a snarky tag line.****


________________________________
Pulling public records is perfectly legal. So is commenting on them.
Oversight is good. It can help prevent things like teachers not having trips signed off by the principal, teachers independently contracting with travel agencies, trips not being processed properly, Booster clubs and teachers bullying parents around for money, etc.
This isn't slander at all. If people do things that are inappropriate they do things that are inappropriate. They need to clean up their act, not complain and whine that somebody is slandering them when they are actually doing things they aren't supposed to do. Don't go trying to bully people and scare them when you aren't following the directions.

Don't go ignoring policies and laws and then cry slander when somebody calls you on your behavior. It's all the truth. Some people just can't stomach having their actions put out there for the public.

You can't hand out a syllabus to 200 kids, hand out 500 field trip forms on something that apparently was not approved by your boss, send out a letter to 150 families telling them to write a check to the school system and then deposit them into a Booster account, sign an agreement with the school system and then outright violate the terms of the agreement, skim surplus cash off of a trip, do a fraudulent spreadsheet, etc. etc. etc. and think that you are involved in something that is Top Secret. It doesn't work that way in public school.

It is what it is.

^^^^^^^
Barb posting to see herself post. Do what you're gonna do, but nobody except you care anymore.v we'd rather debate about which Fairfax McDonald's is the worst.

c6cnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Booster clubs and teachers bullying
> parents around for money

> Don't go trying to bully people and scare them

> skim surplus cash off of a trip

> do a fraudulent spreadsheet

Just to be clear since you mix and match and jumble things up all the time - you are accusing the Westfield Music Department/Westfield Band Boosters of the above?

Lk6hu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c6cnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Booster clubs and teachers bullying
> > parents around for money
>
> > Don't go trying to bully people and scare them
>
> > skim surplus cash off of a trip
>
> > do a fraudulent spreadsheet
>
> Just to be clear since you mix and match and
> jumble things up all the time - you are accusing
> the Westfield Music Department/Westfield Band
> Boosters of the above?


75 programs have been looked at. They all have their claims to fame. And some of them are really mixed and matched and jumbled up. All the time. Some at the same time.

We have had the "activity/class" the "class/activity", the activity fee for a class, the class fee for an activity, the "voluntary" mandatory registration fee needed to reserve your spot, the semi-mandatory absolutely necessary kind of voluntary but not really "donation payment", "donation payments" for school services being run through Booster bank accounts, ignored signed agreements between the Boosters and the school system, we had teachers ignoring what they were to do, Boosters ignoring what they were told to do, Boosters and staff in conspiracy to ignore what they were told to do (don't deny it, folks), the school records that were in the school computer system that couldn't be obtained because a Booster is "out of the country" when in all actuality the school system probably just wanted the summer off from FOIA and didn't plan on a Writ that went all over the country and made them look like total fools (they asked for it), the numerous debates about public records (no, you can't have Boosters do your work and then walk away from your responsibilities my God how many times have we been around the block on that one), and all sorts of combinations and permutations of all these.

Got it all straight?

Ho Ho Ho.

Does anybody else wish Oakton Band hadn't done what they did?

Barb sucks.

And swallows, apparently.

Ho Ho Ho?

Barb is confusing Santa and Satan.

Although that should be expected from a person who like ramming things down other peoples throats...

Ok so let me get this straight.

There are a bunch of kids from LAST year who haven't paid for their trip from LAST year. LAST YEAR? So, who paid all the trip bills for them in the meantime? IT'S NOVEMBER, FOR GOD'S SAKE. Time to plan yet another trip. That they aren't going to pay for. Who knows.
There are a bunch of kids who want to travel THIS year. A lot of them are trying to figure out the money.
They are trying to get people to pay for trips for some kids. These kids still have to pay at least $50.
The kids who didn't pay LAST year aren't going to be eligible for handouts/"help" THIS year. But, they still traveled. Right....

I think there are a LOT of people that think their kid is going to get a really, really nice trip for $50. It might work out, it might not. But I would bet they are going to put their kid on the bus whether the trip is paid for or not. And then what are you going to do?

Money definitely grows on trees. Absolutely. No doubt about it.

What a bunch of suckers.
Attachments:

This is what some will try to do-

10 kids can't afford do pay for their $700 totally optional luxury trip. Somebody tells them "that is OK go ahead and sign up-we don't leave anybody behind". (And why not?)

Then 100 more kids pay $700 each for their trip. Their parents scrimp, save, work, the kid shovels snow to help out, etc.

All 110 kids go on the trip. Of course.

Nobody looks at the records, or they mark down fake payments to make it look like they are paid up (hey P.H.), nobody checks the math (hey J.B.), the trip "breaks even", and voila, 100 kids just paid an extra $70 each for somebody else's trip.

You don't have to do this. The school staff are not supposed to do this. They are basically stealing from you because you only have to pay for your child's services. These kids get free lunch but not free (or reduced) optional trips. You are owed that $70 back. It isn't supposed to be applied to some other child's trip, or anything else for that matter. They can charge you for chaperones and substitute teachers.

Pull your trip records, do the math, ask questions. The total # of students X the price per student should equal the total amount collected. If it doesn't, there is a problem. It might be due to somebody cancelling and getting a partial refund, etc. It might not.

Above all, do NOT write a check to a Booster club for a trip offered to you on a school form. Write it directly to the school system. That is the policy. Otherwise, the Boosters might try this game, and good luck figuring it out.

Why bother with the above tip, when this one is better.
Attachments:

And those 10 kids who can't afford the trip despite participating in every fundraiser are your entire low brass section...YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT WE ARE GOING TO PAY THEIR WAY.

Jesus Barb, these are hardworking band kids, not free-loading assholes.

And those 10 kids who can't afford the trip despite participating in every fundraiser are your entire low brass section...YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT WE ARE GOING TO PAY THEIR WAY.

__________________________________________________
You can't make the other parents pay for those trips. You can't fiddle with the numbers to sneak it past them. They only have to pay for their child. Get over it and deal with it.

these are hardworking band kids, not free-loading assholes.

---------------------------------------------

It doesn't matter. You can't make people subsidize trips for other people's children. You can ask, but you can't send them the bill for them by doing this. It is against the law.

Why don't you get over the fact that the cost of a trip is set long before any parents write checks? And subsequently before it becomes known which kids just aren't going to be able to afford it? You're trying to make it sound like the band directors have some kind of ESP and know exactly how much to overcharge certain parents. It would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.

Why do you think that there hasn't been a major coup after the release of every one of your FOIA'd documents? Because every band parent knows that their respective band program has evolved into an organization that takes care of Every. Child. In. It.

This is odd. No one ever comes back and adds an additional levy to cover unpaid dues. So I think your argument that paying parents then have to specifically pay additional amounts is misleading.

Barb, what part of the music education degree covers forms and FOIA policy? I'm totally serious. You keep saying it's not hard to read a few hundred pages of manuals and documents. When are teachers supposed to be doing that? Are you advocating for increasing taxes to increase the support staff at school? I think teachers would support you.

T6v6K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is odd. No one ever comes back and adds an
> additional levy to cover unpaid dues. So I think
> your argument that paying parents then have to
> specifically pay additional amounts is misleading.

Don't know what you are referring to with the term "dues". Dues are optional and are paid to a Booster club. There aren't any dues with a school trip.

If you are referring to the hypothetical $70, you don't have to add an additional levy. You are being overcharged in that you are not being given a refund. A refund that would occur if everybody paid up in full. When they do this they are passing on the costs of people who can't afford the trip yet somehow have the nerve to put their kid on the bus anyway to you. That amounts to a mandatory donation. That is forbidden. Subsidizing those who do not pay full price for a school trip like this is not part of the cost calculations.

Barb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what part of the music education degree
> covers forms and FOIA policy? I'm totally
> serious. You keep saying it's not hard to read a
> few hundred pages of manuals and documents. When
> are teachers supposed to be doing that? Are you
> advocating for increasing taxes to increase the
> support staff at school? I think teachers would
> support you.


---------------------------

Every teacher in America knows that you can't send out a school trip permission form without the permission of the principal. Being a music teacher does not exempt you from following school policy.

The principals should be working with the staff to explain how to offer a school trip. That is their job. This is not that difficult.

If teacher education programs don't teach you that following school policies is part of your job, that is a problem.

They have money to pay for extra finance tech support. It is in the Educational Contingency Account. It is specifically approved for extra finance tech support for processing student fees. There is no reason in the world the student fee money can't be turned in straight to the front office and bypass the teacher. The problem is that a lot of the principals prefer to spend the money on "working lunches" and "working dinners" and pizza and donut parties and refreshments for meetings and things instead of extra staff.

Lone wolf pack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't you get over the fact that the cost of a
> trip is set long before any parents write checks?
> And subsequently before it becomes known which
> kids just aren't going to be able to afford it?
> You're trying to make it sound like the band
> directors have some kind of ESP and know exactly
> how much to overcharge certain parents. It would
> be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.


Of course the cost is set in advance and you don't know the exact amount a trip will cost. But, that does not absolve you from your legal obligation to return excess funds that are collected.

The trips are optional. OPTIONAL. That means if you can't afford it, you have the OPTION to stay home. That is why they can incorporate the cost of the substitutes into the cost of the trip.

>
> Why do you think that there hasn't been a major
> coup after the release of every one of your FOIA'd
> documents? Because every band parent knows that
> their respective band program has evolved into an
> organization that takes care of Every. Child. In.
> It.

If you think you have to take care of every. Child. In. The. Band. Program. you are fools. Somebody has brainwashed you into thinking that you have to supply everything for every child? You are suckers if you fall for that. All donations are optional. So, exactly how do you plan for provide for all kids when you are "drowning in poor children"? You aren't going to be able to do this, so you need to quit clinging to this unrealistic fantasy and move on. These kids can have their class fees paid via the Equal Opportunity Fund. A trip to Disneyworld is not a required part of the agenda for the school year. It is a luxury. It is optional. It is a fun thing to do. If you can't afford it, then you need to stay home. Plenty of people stay home for that very reason. Boosters are not some bottomless pit of money to provide fancy trips to all. Not being able to go on something because you simply can't afford it teaches children that it is important to work hard and save money so that you can afford the extras. Handing them a trip to Disneyworld teaches them that somebody else will pay their way in life. It perpetuates the problem of people thinking they are entitled to have somebody else pay their way on everything.

Some of you really are pathetic. It is sad.

If you want to raise $30,000, you have two things you can tell prospective donors-

1. We plan to use the money to replace old instruments, bring in some additional specialized instructors, purchase some needed equipment, etc.

Or-------

2. We would rather spend this money on roller coaster rides and do without all the stuff in #1.

It all depends on your priorities.

Maybe Barb is speaking about her experiences with the Oakton band, but scholarship money for students in need is not (usually) subsidized from trip fees.

If there are children in need who apply for assistance to boosters, I would think that funding would come from general fundraising like tag days, concession sales, etc.

The purpose of boosters is to help all children in a program. Outside of Barb's bubble of conspiracy theories, there are plenty of programs that do it legally.

Print this up. Take a good look at it. It is a masterpiece. See all the people who had to write $200-$500 checks? Almost all of them were marked paid in full on the original spreadsheet.

See the people who had very large checks written to them by the school system? They probably were told they owed all that, after their payments were not correctly recorded. They trusted that things were being handled properly. TRUSTED. They were taken advantage of.

A volunteer did the original spreadsheet. There were some very obvious problems. Anybody who looked at it could see it right off. Did anybody look at it? Probably not. This one was the result of an audit. That resulted from a citizen raising Holy Hell. Everybody who got a check got it because of this citizen.

The front office could have cared less. They were far more focused on what was going on with the Santini's order. "This issue was closed." Bull%^$#.

This ruined their summer and they deserved that.

There are some really messed up trips out there. A lot of them have been posted. Pull your records. Do the math. Ask questions.
Attachments:

There is money available for additional staff to process fees.
Check what is going on with the ECA at your school.
Calculate how much of it is going for restaurants, parties, refreshments, maybe an off-site with $30 breakfasts and $600 hotel rooms.
It is probably a LOT.

There is no reason the teachers have to be collecting all these fees and doing all that recordkeeping. Let them teach.

How many hours of finance tech support would a $3000 catered breakfast pay for? A LOT. Do you want scrambled eggs or more staff?
Attachments:

Tip of the Day 2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why bother with the above tip, when this one is
> better.

This really makes me want to enroll my child in a music class. Nice troll.

You keep saying that school employees are doing things that are illegal. Why hasn't anyone been fired, arrested, or sued?

Perplexed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You keep saying that school employees are doing
> things that are illegal. Why hasn't anyone been
> fired, arrested, or sued?


Probably because they either got their act together, the problem was fixed, or they were darn lucky.

TgYibt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perplexed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You keep saying that school employees are doing
> > things that are illegal. Why hasn't anyone been
> > fired, arrested, or sued?
>
>
> Probably because they either got their act
> together, the problem was fixed, or they were darn
> lucky.

Could also be because it is nearly impossible to do any of these to a government employee, even if they deserve it. But that still is not any excuse to take advantage of helpless children and their trusting parents. To do that to them is beyond vile. It is worthy of rotting in Hell.

You are so out of the loop. I am a booster parent that has been assisting with organizing trips for a long time. The price usually starts out at a higher price to give parents a 'heads up' about how much the trip could cost based on a minimum number of students. After determining how many kids are going, the price is finalized and then send out to parents. If a student goes to the director and asks for assistance that comes out of booster fundraising --- not other student payments. An entire cost of the trip is never covered, and that has been the case even before this incessant FOIA crusade

booster parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are so out of the loop. I am a booster parent
> that has been assisting with organizing trips for
> a long time. The price usually starts out at a
> higher price to give parents a 'heads up' about
> how much the trip could cost based on a minimum
> number of students. After determining how many
> kids are going, the price is finalized and then
> send out to parents. If a student goes to the
> director and asks for assistance that comes out of
> booster fundraising --- not other student
> payments. An entire cost of the trip is never
> covered, and that has been the case even before
> this incessant FOIA crusade

Maybe in your world. Some of us were paying for people who could not their act together and probably were not even told this most of the time as the records were locked up in a major public records dispute and a lot of the records are long gone or in somebody's basement. Maybe in another state.

Anybody care to step up and explain that spreadsheet? That thing was closed down. Finished. Done. The books were closed. Wrong.
FCPS had to reopen the thing in JULY, start from scratch, and bring in the Comptroller to figure out what to do about it. They owed about $2000 to a bunch of people and had to extract about the same from a bunch of others. One wanted a "payment plan" to pay off $500. They wanted another five months to pay on this thing. After they had already had five months. Even without the names it was very obvious that two $250 payments were marked down for this kid that were never made. There were other unique identifiers. There were several other "mystery payments" that made it look like other people were paid in full. Again, the unique identifiers were very clear. Obviously the Boosters weren't interested in helping any of these people and they were all sent a bill and told to pay up. FCPS is not supposed to do loans for people. Isn't fraud wonderful?

FCPS had to write a check to a member of the School Board. Nice job of ripping off a member of the Board.

Pull the records on your trips. Do the math. Ask questions. Demand answers and don't let anybody try to bully you around. There are a lot of people that are very good at that. Some of them are posting on this thread.

****Maybe in your world. Some of us were paying for people who could not their act together and probably were not even told this most of the time as the records were locked up in a major public records dispute and a lot of the records are long gone or in somebody's basement. Maybe in another state.*****

________________________________

FCPS was caught right in the act doing this. They flat out admitted to it. Acted like it was no big deal. Shrug. So, how long had that been going on? Nobody will ever know because the older records had been handled by a Booster club and "didn't exist" any more. They should have existed. They were not compliant with the records retention schedule, which means they were not compliant with the Virginia Public Records Act. But, that has been discussed to no end.

18375524 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody care to step up and explain that
> spreadsheet? That thing was closed down. Finished.
> Done. The books were closed. Wrong.
> FCPS had to reopen the thing in JULY, start from
> scratch, and bring in the Comptroller to figure
> out what to do about it. They owed about $2000 to
> a bunch of people and had to extract about the
> same from a bunch of others. One wanted a "payment
> plan" to pay off $500. They wanted another five
> months to pay on this thing. After they had
> already had five months. Even without the names it
> was very obvious that two $250 payments were
> marked down for this kid that were never made.
> There were other unique identifiers. There were
> several other "mystery payments" that made it look
> like other people were paid in full. Again, the
> unique identifiers were very clear. Obviously the
> Boosters weren't interested in helping any of
> these people and they were all sent a bill and
> told to pay up. FCPS is not supposed to do loans
> for people. Isn't fraud wonderful?

What are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In the context of what I have been reading in this thread I haven't a clue what this is even about. Make some sense. We are not mind readers.

This is very clear. Look at the trip spreadsheet that was posted 12/12 9:38am.
A fine example of a huge mess.
Lots of lessons to be learned with that.

1. If a volunteer totally fricks something up, the school system has to fix it.
2. Somebody was trying to cut a deal for some people by creating fraudulent entries on a spreadsheet.
3. The school system tried to weasel their way out of what was their responsibility.
4. Somebody said no, insisted FCPS fix their work, and a whole bunch of people got some huge checks. And a whole bunch more had to cough up some major bucks.

Live and learn.

Check your trips. Don't trust anybody.

So the Boosters are made up of parents, right?

And your analysis of redacted paperwork has led you to believe that the Booster volunteers placed in change of recording the bands' finances are cooking the books?

So..the parents are stealing from themselves?

Perplexed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the Boosters are made up of parents, right?
>
> And your analysis of redacted paperwork has led
> you to believe that the Booster volunteers placed
> in change of recording the bands' finances are
> cooking the books?
>
> So..the parents are stealing from themselves?


-Yup.
-Sometimes.
-Depends on what the transaction is about and exactly what you mean by that.

And that doesn't even take into account what the school staff are doing to the families.

People who do horrible things to kids and their parents have a special place in Hell reserved for them.

this is just ridiculous. I have been an involved PTA/booster parent for 14 yrs now and I can tell you that the majority of parents that are involved and actually volunteer have the best interest of the students and the programs as a priority and do not want to 'fund' another students trip or activity at the expense of another family. They will assist and participate in fundraising to be able to help ALL students and yes at times a lower income student be able to be a part of an activity or trip. These 'scholarships' are not meant to fund an entire trip. They are meant to make it little less of a hardship for a family on free / reduced lunch, or a family that may have lost a job, etc. I do agree that families should have access to the booster finances at the beginning and end of year or at any time they have a concern about the way something is funded. Accusing ALL parents and ALL booster groups of stealing funds from their own students and the program that benefits their student is not fair. Most PTA/boosters organizations are non - profits and therefore must submit a tax return each year as well and are held accountable by the IRS.

Obviously some groups have more problems than others. No general accusations are being made. It isn't necessarily Booster groups stealing money from families to use on themselves personally. It is an issue of demanding money that you are not entitled to, both on the part of the Boosters AND the school system. The amounts that can be collected are set by state law and local regulations. When you demand money that you are not entitled to, send out bills wanting it, get firm with families, etc., giving the impression that they are required to pay this, this is very inappropriate. That is taking advantage of kids and their parents. That is reprehensible. Coming up with creative names for the bills in order to obfuscate the purpose and terms is grossly inappropriate. Shall we name some names?

The tax returns and being held accountable by the IRS are a joke. They accomplish very little.

It is very sad that one group in particular took such pride in hiding financial information from their parents. Some of the information should have been obtainable from the school system using the public records act and the custodian provisions. The school system was asleep on that. But, there was other information that they withheld on their fundraising, also. They had the nerve to have a lawyer send ugly letters refusing to release information that should have been made readily available to a member of the non-profit. This was a very, very pathologic group of people. Some very sick, abusive people. However, they chose to act like that. Their attitudes and practices made it very clear that public records and public funds needed to be moved into open school accounts, where they should have been all along. It is hard to believe people can act like this but they did. This also prompted the requirements to present certain financial information to the school system.

The trip numbers scenario was presented in round numbers to keep it simple. It is difficult to see how much of a discount some people are getting on the trips. Some are getting significant assistance. There is no way to know who got the big discounts on the spreadsheet posted on the 12th and why. Many of the people who got these paid up very quickly. This didn't seem to be a financial hardship issue for most of them. At least not in July when the front office say "hey, we can't do this". Just who was getting the good deals and why?

It is nice to be able to include those who are less fortunate or having hard times in everything but sometimes a $900 trip is just out of their reach and that needs to be accepted by them and the teacher and the other travelers.

You just need to use your available funds for whatever you think is most useful. One concert and a trip to a theme park, or extra equipment and instructors, etc.

23408976 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obviously some groups have more problems than
> others. No general accusations are being made. It
> isn't necessarily Booster groups stealing money
> from families to use on themselves personally. It
> is an issue of demanding money that you are not
> entitled to, both on the part of the Boosters AND
> the school system. The amounts that can be
> collected are set by state law and local
> regulations. When you demand money that you are
> not entitled to, send out bills wanting it, get
> firm with families, etc., giving the impression
> that they are required to pay this, this is very
> inappropriate. That is taking advantage of kids
> and their parents. That is reprehensible. Coming
> up with creative names for the bills in order to
> obfuscate the purpose and terms is grossly
> inappropriate. Shall we name some names?
>
> The tax returns and being held accountable by the
> IRS are a joke. They accomplish very little.
>
> It is very sad that one group in particular took
> such pride in hiding financial information from
> their parents. Some of the information should have
> been obtainable from the school system using the
> public records act and the custodian provisions.
> The school system was asleep on that. But, there
> was other information that they withheld on their
> fundraising, also. They had the nerve to have a
> lawyer send ugly letters refusing to release
> information that should have been made readily
> available to a member of the non-profit. This was
> a very, very pathologic group of people. Some very
> sick, abusive people. However, they chose to act
> like that. Their attitudes and practices made it
> very clear that public records and public funds
> needed to be moved into open school accounts,
> where they should have been all along. It is hard
> to believe people can act like this but they did.
> This also prompted the requirements to present
> certain financial information to the school
> system.
>
> The trip numbers scenario was presented in round
> numbers to keep it simple. It is difficult to see
> how much of a discount some people are getting on
> the trips. Some are getting significant
> assistance. There is no way to know who got the
> big discounts on the spreadsheet posted on the
> 12th and why. Many of the people who got these
> paid up very quickly. This didn't seem to be a
> financial hardship issue for most of them. At
> least not in July when the front office say "hey,
> we can't do this". Just who was getting the good
> deals and why?
>
> It is nice to be able to include those who are
> less fortunate or having hard times in everything
> but sometimes a $900 trip is just out of their
> reach and that needs to be accepted by them and
> the teacher and the other travelers.
>
> You just need to use your available funds for
> whatever you think is most useful. One concert and
> a trip to a theme park, or extra equipment and
> instructors, etc.

Just name the fucking names and stop this stupid shit already!

This is absolute horse shit. Barb is trying to portray herself as a concerned citizen by making wild, unsubstantiated accusations and fabricating "facts" by simply expecting people to believe what she says just because she says it. Don't drink the koolaid.

Does anyone else remember how this crusade started? She FOIA'd and posted the salaries of very band director in FCPS. She has been out to villify music teachers from the beginning!

This is very entertaining.

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/1051487/page-1.html

Different thread. Different OP.

Different thread. Same OP.

Different OP. Wrong.

Go to hell you fucking child abusers!

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Go to hell you fucking child abusers!

Somebody else using *****. Which anybody can do.

This is a fun one. Some schools seem to think that it's acceptable for parents to present only a drivers license to chaperone small groups of students during school-sponsored activites. Don't do it. Every volunteer must be finger printed and have a background check for each event that they are going to be around students. Period. Do not try to take the documentation from one folder of a trip and put it into the folder for the next trip. Do not destroy volunteer records until 5 years after the trip. These are the rules. Stop acting like you are above them.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/8T9HHA488B92/$file/R4119.pdf

Actually if the person has a child in the school system they don't have to be fingerprinted.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/fi
> les/8T9HHA488B92/$file/R4119.pdf
>
> Actually if the person has a child in the school
> system they don't have to be fingerprinted.


The volunteer also doesn't have to have a background check, etc.
Some school systems require this if a volunteer is going on an overnight trip, but not FCPS.

Hey, check out this question from my kid's SAT study guide!

Barb has FOIA'd 75 music programs in FCPS. Each FOIA takes an average of one hour to fulfill. Answer the following questions:

1. Assume each music program has received one FOIA request from Barb. If every music teacher is a first year teacher with a Bachelor's degree and a starting salary of 42k, has a 194-day contract, and works 8 hours a day, what is the minimum amount of money that Barb's FOIA crusade cost the school system?

ANSWER: $2,029.64 ($42K/194 days/8 hours=$27.06 an hour. Multiply by 75 FOIAs)

2. Each music program has actually received multiple FOIA requests from Barb, some upwards of 10. Assume the average is 5 FOIAs per program. Most music teachers have been teaching for over 10 years, and many have their Masters. If the average salary is actually 70K, a 210-day contract, and a 10-hour work day, how much money has Barb's FOIA crusade cost the school system?

ANSWER: $12,498.75 ($70K/210 days/10 hours=$33.33. Multiply by [75*5=375] FOIAs)

3. Considering that FCPS is in the hole and Barb believes that her FOIA crusade is worth the financial cost to the school system and the personal cost to the music teachers, how much has submitting these FOIA requests cost Barb personally?

Answer: $0. Barb is being backed by an extremist anti-government Watchdog group with no ties to FCPS and no investment in its future.

ISN'T MATH FUN, KIDS?!?

FCPS contract hours are 7.5 hours a day, so those figures are actually too low.

Answer 1 should be $2164.95, and Answer 2 should be $16,666.67.

Somebody run some figures on these-

The cost of multiple lawsuits due to teachers and principals inappropriately billing students for their classes and not being compliant with state educational laws.

The cost of a teacher or principal losing their job or license due to not being compliant with policies and laws.

The cost of multiple lawsuits due to the public school system not producing public records they are supposed to have.

The cost of multiple lawsuits due to Booster clubs demanding (yes, demanding) money from people when they have no right to do so. It is a really bad idea to bully families around in order to fill your bank accounts.

The legal costs that arise when Boosters do things like skim surplus cash off of county transactions that are supposed to break even and have surplus returned to the families.

The cost of dealing with the problems that result from Booster clubs and their officers handling money that the officers are not insured to handle and the problems that result from inadequate or non-existent insurance on the money.

Math is great.

Oh, and somebody calculate out all the money lost by parents who were inappropriately billed by a Booster club for things they had no right to be demanding money for. Some people turned over thousands of dollars on multiple children to these clubs, thinking this was mandatory. It wasn't, and they could have written a lot of that money off on their income tax return if they had chosen to donate this. Instead, they were bullied into giving this to them, and were taken advantage of in more ways than one.

Math is great.

Doing things that are not compliant with local regulations + state laws + federal laws = illegal = expensive squared.

To be honest the cost of the FOIA requests is much higher than stated. They not only take much longer for teachers to put together and submit, but the time taken from instruction is often sacrificed to do so. Many of the band/orchestra teachers already work many more hours than what is in their contract and do it because they are dedicated to their students.

who cares Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be honest the cost of the FOIA requests is much
> higher than stated. They not only take much
> longer for teachers to put together and submit,
> but the time taken from instruction is often
> sacrificed to do so. Many of the band/orchestra
> teachers already work many more hours than what is
> in their contract and do it because they are
> dedicated to their students.

Failure to follow school regulations and state and federal laws=ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR=child and family ABUSE====>>>more FOIA required to monitor compliance=QUIT WHINING AND DO YOUR JOBS PROPERLY.

Some of the staff and parents still think it is worth breaking the law and ignoring school regulations in the interest of filling up their bank accounts and it doesn't make it OK that they think this is for a good cause. Bank robbers think they are doing something for a good cause, also.

Refusing to stand behind your work, refusing to uphold your regulations and protect families, refusing to fix what you do wrong and prove it openly to the citizens of the county=more FOIA to monitor these things.

Hello McLean Band.

the antibarb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Answer: $0. Barb is being backed by an extremist
> anti-government Watchdog group with no ties to
> FCPS and no investment in its future.


No, I don't think so. She favors new bureaucratic regulatory regimes and increased government employee involvement in all aspect of school related activity, suppression of any non-government employee involvement in our schools, would like to eliminate parent volunteering in any school related activity. She favors elimination of private funding of extracurricular activities and supports increased funding of the same on the backs of the non-involved taxpayers. That sounds very pro-government to me.

notheantibarb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the antibarb Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Answer: $0. Barb is being backed by an
> extremist
> > anti-government Watchdog group with no ties to
> > FCPS and no investment in its future.
>
>
> No, I don't think so. She favors new bureaucratic
> regulatory regimes and increased government
> employee involvement in all aspect of school
> related activity, suppression of any
> non-government employee involvement in our
> schools, would like to eliminate parent
> volunteering in any school related activity. She
> favors elimination of private funding of
> extracurricular activities and supports increased
> funding of the same on the backs of the
> non-involved taxpayers. That sounds very
> pro-government to me.



You have the wrong OP.

The OP wants-

Bureaucrats to enforce long-standing local and state and federal policies. These are not "new policies". They have been in place for many, many years. In other words, they need to do what we pay them to do and quit going out to lunch and dinner on the taxpayer dime and then complaining about no time and no money for the kids.

Encouraging volunteering within the limits that a volunteer has (this does not include abusing children and their parents, demanding money from them, circumventing school policies, messing around with public funds, doing fraudulent spreadsheets, etc.).

Private funding of extracurricular activities is totally fine as long as it is legally done. Music classes are not extracurricular activities, BTW. They are classes.

Non-involved taxpayers are required by law to fund things like classes and certain things associated with them. So, budget for this.

Back to wrapping presents........

Barb:

Why would you submit a FOIA request to all high school band directors that would required them to be called in out of their winter holiday break to answer by the due date?

You are disrupting their well-earned time with their families. Heartless....

Why Barb? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Barb:
>
> Why would you submit a FOIA request to all high
> school band directors that would required them to
> be called in out of their winter holiday break to
> answer by the due date?

Because a few years ago I was disrespected by the Oakton Band Director and I have a petty vendetta. I will do my best to make life difficult for all music instructors in the county until I get a public apology.

Cheryl Newton retired last year. Time to let it go...

The best way to avoid being FOIA'd-

Follow your policies.
Enforce your policies.
When you promise that you will get back to somebody about a problem, get back to them.
When you promise a follow up appointment about a problem, set up a follow up appointment.
When you have inappropriately billed 170 families for a class, offer them a refund and an explanation.
Look beyond your bank accounts and show that you care about treating families right.

Your track records continue to stink, which => more FOIA.

Happy Holidays.

Still no excuse for doing this over the holidays to people and their families. That is cruel, even by your standards.

Inappropriately charging 170 families is cruel. Very cruel. Beyond cruel. It is VILE. Not following through on what you promise to do is rude. Very rude. Beyond rude. There is no excuse for doing this to people and their families.

It is called being a**holes.

People who act like a**holes need to be FOIA'd because they tend to do terrible things to children and their parents and show no remorse. This is a recurrent theme with multiple variations and verses.

Another way to avoid FOIA is to NOT say the following crap-

"Quite simply, FCPS only has to produce what they prepare or possess."

and----

"We can't produce [very simple] documents from last year [that are right in our computer system] because a Booster is out of the country." A Booster who is a "he" named Jill.

And then stall and argue for weeks and months on end.

Happy Holidays.

They had plenty of time to address one major problem before the holidays. They have had since June.

fuck your stupid kids, I hope they get raped by the janitor or the science teacher.

FOIA deadlines can sometimes be negotiated between the requester and the public body.

fortissimo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Inappropriately charging 170 families is cruel.
> Very cruel. Beyond cruel. It is VILE.

But yet you encourage charging MORE in mandatory fees. You insist upon stopping assistance to low income students.