Suck on this, Ryan McElveen and the rest of you turf lovers:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2014/09/28/how-taxpayers-get-fooled-on-the-cost-of-an-artificial-turf-field/

Here's how Fairfax taxpayers got hoodwinked:

About a decade ago, a group of wealthy individuals in the western end of the state (past Roanoke) made a concerted effort to improve high school sports facilities that were decrepit, with an emphasis on football fields. It was their way of giving back to help grow the small-town community spirit, in a still very depressed region of America. Around a dozen high schools with on average 500 enrolled kids were getting brand-new artificial turf fields for football, and maybe soccer if the school offered the sport. Fields were built with donated materials, and volunteer sweat.

Some Fairfax County city-slicker saw what was going on in the backwoods part of the state, didn't find out the deets, and then declared, "Well certainly if those yokels can make it happen, we can afford them too!" And now you're paying for them.

Artificial turf fields in Fairfax ran between $500-900k and get used sixteen hours a day, every day. And are now literally falling apart at the seams.

I practiced and played on a grass field in high school.

The soccer and lacrosse teams had to go to the middle school to practice and play (we couldn't have their lines on our field).

By October, the field was torched. Either a dust pit when it was dry out, or a mud pit,

Couldn't practice or play after a rain.

Now, same high school...all teams can use it, regardless of weather, and it is not a disaster by 1/3 through the season.

It gets used all the time...even after snow.

Not commenting on costs, but even if it is much more expensive, it is a better way to go...

Much better.

I don't know how it could be much more expensive, either...say it costs 800K to put down (don't know if that is right, guessing) lasts for ten years (seems about right)...putting a grass field down is what, $150,000...watering probably 10K per year, mowing maybe 10 K, seeding, fertilizer another 10K per year...

So, 30 k per year in maintenence...that is 300 k over ten years, plus initial 150K, around 450K over 10 years.

Grass is out of commission maybe 25% of the time because of weather, requires the use of another 1 or 2 fields for practice (travel, extra maintenence, etc)...all the sudden, the costs are getting closer...

Much better utility for turf, couldn't be that much more expensive if it is.

Otherwise, how have people been getting "hoodwinked" for so many years?

turf has been around 50 years, people have been able to run numbers for 50 years, you mean it has been a ripoff for that long and people are just now catching on?

C'mom...

Is that $500k - $900k each or for the whole county? Has to be each, right? How many have we already paid for?

reality is Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I practiced and played on a grass field in high
> school.
>
> The soccer and lacrosse teams had to go to the
> middle school to practice and play (we couldn't
> have their lines on our field).
>
> By October, the field was torched. Either a dust
> pit when it was dry out, or a mud pit,
>
> Couldn't practice or play after a rain.
>
> Now, same high school...all teams can use it,
> regardless of weather, and it is not a disaster by
> 1/3 through the season.
>
> It gets used all the time...even after snow.
>
> Not commenting on costs, but even if it is much
> more expensive, it is a better way to go...
>
> Much better.
>
> I don't know how it could be much more expensive,
> either...say it costs 800K to put down (don't know
> if that is right, guessing) lasts for ten years
> (seems about right)...putting a grass field down
> is what, $150,000...watering probably 10K per
> year, mowing maybe 10 K, seeding, fertilizer
> another 10K per year...
>
> So, 30 k per year in maintenence...that is 300 k
> over ten years, plus initial 150K, around 450K
> over 10 years.
>
> Grass is out of commission maybe 25% of the time
> because of weather, requires the use of another 1
> or 2 fields for practice (travel, extra
> maintenence, etc)...all the sudden, the costs are
> getting closer...
>
> Much better utility for turf, couldn't be that
> much more expensive if it is.
>
> Otherwise, how have people been getting
> "hoodwinked" for so many years?
>
> turf has been around 50 years, people have been
> able to run numbers for 50 years, you mean it has
> been a ripoff for that long and people are just
> now catching on?
>
> C'mom...


You like TURF, you pay for TURF. Very few of us get to play on it, so don't expect us to pay for it. Get out your checkbook.

last time I played was in the 80's.

Just speaking from an unbiased, practical point of view.

hey...I don't get to fly to the moon...get the astronauts to pay for that stuff...

makes a lot sense...if you don't actually use it, you don't have to pay for it.

Hey...I'm through with school...why do I need to pay taxes for schools?

artificial turf need maintenance, and up keep juts like real grass. and over time usually 7-8 years the turf needs to be pulled up and new installed.

as mentioned the benefits of artificial turf is playability nealy 100% of the time...

What a waste of money and resources. Schools are meant for learning. You wanna play sports, join a league after school.
If we didn't pay for sports in schools, teachers would have a decent salary.

^^^^^^ Your name should be "serious idiot."

Fairfax schools have turf but are losing accreditation. I guess Fairfax school graduates can trade stories about the games they played on turf fields during their breaks at McDonald's and Vector Marketing. A kid graduating from a second rate school has NO chance at getting into a good college. Pretty soon NVCC won't be taking FCPS graduates.

The sky is falling

Maybe the cost benefits were wrong, I'm not sure. Here are the other benefits:

- better level of play. Grass fields around here DON'T GROW FOR SHIT!! With soccer, the ball bounces all over the place - much harder to learn the game, or play it for that matter.

Grass fields get trashed with the latinos sneaking on every day to play. Park Authority does nothing to stop them. With turf, the fields are always great to play on, so let the latinos play all they want

- Never close fields for rain. On grass fields, you can get cancellations days after heavy rain. With turn, you always play unless T-storms.

Someone said they are falling apart at the seams. Well as someone who has played on just about every one in the county, they are all in good working condition. The thing you see with the older ones is that the "grass" component gets a little worn down. Regardless, the playability is fantastic and has really improved sports in the county.

Men's leaguer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe the cost benefits were wrong, I'm not sure.
> Here are the other benefits:
>
> - better level of play. Grass fields around here
> DON'T GROW FOR SHIT!! With soccer, the ball
> bounces all over the place - much harder to learn
> the game, or play it for that matter.
>
> Grass fields get trashed with the latinos sneaking
> on every day to play. Park Authority does nothing
> to stop them. With turf, the fields are always
> great to play on, so let the latinos play all they
> want
>
> - Never close fields for rain. On grass fields,
> you can get cancellations days after heavy rain.
> With turn, you always play unless T-storms.
>
> Someone said they are falling apart at the seams.
> Well as someone who has played on just about every
> one in the county, they are all in good working
> condition. The thing you see with the older ones
> is that the "grass" component gets a little worn
> down. Regardless, the playability is fantastic
> and has really improved sports in the county.

And where does it say that ALL taxpayers must pay for something used by a minority of people-league members? If you want turf fields, pay for them.

As a non league member, I've been told I can be charged with trespassing if I even set foot on of these expensive extravagances.

The issue is Truf fields are out of commission less due to weather/water/mud issues.

First they are DESIGNED to drain and have special drain systems.

But the real question is if someone was to actually "Design & Build" a special grass field with proper grass mix, drainage and irrigation, what would the initial and long term cost be?

I would bet that if someone actually built a proper grass field it would cost less than an initial Turf installation and be cheaper in the long run.

The way FCPS and Fairfax Park Authority does things is they expect grass to grow and water to drain in VA Red Clay, its not going to happen.

Also the fields take a real beating in June, July & Aug without the proper rain and by September when they are needed they are in BAD shape.

Wake up and think outside the box. How about a few test grass field that are installed and maintained properly?

Turf is more practical, aside from the cancer concerns. I like turf!

I love this PAY for USE formula that many people think is the way things are.

In other words, if you don't USE it, you shouldn't have to PAY for it.

Since I haven't used a school for 30 years, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Never used the fire department...haven't been in a public library for years...

Have never been in a space ship, or one of Va Air National Guard's F-16s...

Gee, why am I paying for them...

love that turf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Turf is more practical, aside from the cancer
> concerns. I like turf!


Cancer concerns are real, especially is you spend a lot of time on the ground - football, soccer goalies, etc. There is a replacement for the crumbled tires, but it's more expensive. There's a brand new complex in Loudoun that put in crumbled rubber - don't assume new fields are addressing the concerns on the recycled tires on the field.

Men's leaguer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> - Never close fields for rain. On grass fields,
> you can get cancellations days after heavy rain.
> With turn, you always play unless T-storms.

FC closes turf fields for snow - Arlington and Loudoun do not. And by snow, I mean every square inch of snow/ice must melt before being usable according to FC. So FC is throwing out a significant part of the benefit by banning snow removal. Turf fields were closed for weeks this winter.

missing piece? Wrote:

>
> And where does it say that ALL taxpayers must pay
> for something used by a minority of people-league
> members? If you want turf fields, pay for them.
>
> As a non league member, I've been told I can be
> charged with trespassing if I even set foot on of
> these expensive extravagances.

Is this a tea party troll?

Thats not the way Taxes work. We all contribute, and there's things that not everyone uses. There's roads your tax money pays that you don't travel on.

m4pX3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The issue is Truf fields are out of commission
> less due to weather/water/mud issues.
>
> First they are DESIGNED to drain and have special
> drain systems.
>
> But the real question is if someone was to
> actually "Design & Build" a special grass field
> with proper grass mix, drainage and irrigation,
> what would the initial and long term cost be?
>
> I would bet that if someone actually built a
> proper grass field it would cost less than an
> initial Turf installation and be cheaper in the
> long run.
>
> The way FCPS and Fairfax Park Authority does
> things is they expect grass to grow and water to
> drain in VA Red Clay, its not going to happen.
>
> Also the fields take a real beating in June, July
> & Aug without the proper rain and by September
> when they are needed they are in BAD shape.
>
> Wake up and think outside the box. How about a few
> test grass field that are installed and maintained
> properly?

YES. Lot of good info in this ^^ response. The crappy soil (high clay composition) is mostly to blame. The other fault is probably sub-par grass on the fields. Lot of improvements with genetics in grass seed these days.

Good question about the cost comparison for a proper grass field. Keep in mind this would mean the whole field would have to be excavated and sub layers of sand or gravel would need to be applied to promote better drainage.

To figure out the cost you would need to add proper irrigation, for the summer months you point out.

kev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> missing piece? Wrote:
>
> >
> > And where does it say that ALL taxpayers must
> pay
> > for something used by a minority of
> people-league
> > members? If you want turf fields, pay for them.
> >
> > As a non league member, I've been told I can be
> > charged with trespassing if I even set foot on
> of
> > these expensive extravagances.
>
> Is this a tea party troll?
>
> Thats not the way Taxes work. We all contribute,
> and there's things that not everyone uses. There's
> roads your tax money pays that you don't travel
> on.

Not the same. I can drive on any road I choose to. I can go to the library if I want to. If I have kids, I can put them in school.

But, these turf fields, I am NOT ALLOWED to use them. I get no benefit from them.

The mere existence of these extravagant fields is a testimony to the elitism that has consumed the county. As such, they are an INSULT to most of the residents.

The government that put them in place needs to be removed. That means EVERY member of the board of supervisors and the school board needs to be voted out of office.

The same.

Can I fly Virginia's F-16's?

No.

Do you pay more, or less, for schools depending on number of kids?

No.

Can you get out of paying for schools via taxes if your kids already graduated from another state's schools?

No.

You CAN go watch sporting events played on these fields, even if you can't use them.

So again, do you REALLY think we live in a system that requires you to pay taxes on things only if you can use them?

Go use one of our schools, then. Just sit in a classroom for a day.

wrong again Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The same.
>
> Can I fly Virginia's F-16's?

no, but you derive benefit from them.

>
> No.
>
> Do you pay more, or less, for schools depending on
> number of kids?
>
> No.
>
> Can you get out of paying for schools via taxes if
> your kids already graduated from another state's
> schools?
>
> No.
>
> You CAN go watch sporting events played on these
> fields, even if you can't use them.

aha, you admit I can't use them. why is that? because I don't belong to one of your elitist, entitled leagues?

>
> So again, do you REALLY think we live in a system
> that requires you to pay taxes on things only if
> you can use them?
>
> Go use one of our schools, then. Just sit in a
> classroom for a day.

There are two turf issues. One is the schools. One is the leagues. The schools can do well enough with grass. The leagues should be honored to get to use the grass fields. The fact that they have manipulated county officials to get turf fields is utterly unforgivable.

All of you can hang out with Ryan McElveen after he's been voted out of office.

up yours, turf addict Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The leagues should be honored to get
> to use the grass fields. The fact that they have
> manipulated county officials to get turf fields is
> utterly unforgivable.

I'm not sure who is playing who. The county demands a lot of money from youth leagues to convert a field - I recall a 60/40 split, but I'm not sure which way. In the old days (10 years ago) the county allowed youth leagues to "adopt" a field - which meant basically paying for everything - water, mowing, fertilizer, etc. There are still some of those around - any Bermuda grass field you can be sure was paid for by a youth league. There's a Bermuda field next to Spring Hill Rec that was paid for the McLean Soccer. They've also converted what must now be close to a dozen fields to turf in the last 10 years, with McLean Soccer paying the bill for whatever split the county asks for.

It is simple, Fairfax taxpayers have been played, and played big time.