honest inquiry here -- does anyone know why, exactly, our buses are rendered inoperable by cold weather, yet school buses in much colder places manage the winter just fine?

Diesel fuel and lack of preventative maintenance by school system would be my guess.

Diesels don't get enough heat or some bullshit like that.

They're lazy and entitled like most of the kids.

Also should note that cummins diesel need heaters...
i guess the heaters get fucked up this time of year.

Any real diesel operator knows that you have to plug them into electricity at night to keep the oil warm.

Now get your pussy-ass BMWs outta the way I'm coming through!

Take a physics class. Do a project on the ability of batteries to produce instant electricity in very cold temperatures. Determine the viscosity of motor oil, steering fluid, and ATF at zero degrees. Realize that there is a reason why people in Alaska and on both sides of the western US-Canada border do not turn turn their cars off when they pop into the convenience store in the winter, and why there are plug-in posts for cars at theaters, restaurants, and stores where longer stops are anticipated. Can you make out all the wires in the picture below? Those are for block heaters -- sort of like electric blankets for an engine's working parts. Our school buses do not live in that sort of pampered luxury.
.
Attachments:

Nanook's brother Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Take a physics class. Do a project on the ability
> of batteries to produce instant electricity in
> very cold temperatures. Determine the viscosity
> of motor oil, steering fluid, and ATF at zero
> degrees. Realize that there is a reason why
> people in Alaska and on both sides of the western
> US-Canada border do not turn turn their cars off
> when they pop into the convenience store in the
> winter, and why there are plug-in posts for cars
> at theaters, restaurants, and stores where longer
> stops are anticipated. Can you make out all the
> wires in the picture below? Those are for block
> heaters -- sort of like electric blankets for an
> engine's working parts. Our school buses do not
> live in that sort of pampered luxury.
> .

+1

There is an additive for diesel fuel to keep it from jelling up in cold climates. It's possible that Fairfax does not use it. A diesel engine does not have spark spugs. it needs an air/fuel charge that is warm enough to ignite under pressure. "Glow plugs" in the engine should do the job, though external heaters (plugged in overnight) are a real plus. A healthy battery in the bus is a must.. the power output will already be diminished because of the effect that single digit temperatures have on a lead acid battery. Run the glow plugs long enough and there probably won't be enough cranking amps to start the engine, which will aready be hard to crank due to the thick, cold oil.
You could start the buses several hours earlier and let them idle... a waste of fuel, but doable.

My Duramax 2500HD is electricity-pampered and powerful.

It has so much torque that I've literally plucked out tree stumps with it. And on the interstates the top-end torque let's it cruise at 80mph pulling a 24' boat. Truly an amazing vehicle. I've been driving it since 2006 and have never come close to being stuck.

http://antigravitybatteries.com/microstart/

They need a bunch of these
Attachments:

The reason that FCPS buses won't start in cold weather is the glow plugs, 99% of the time anyway.

Anybody with experience with diesel vehicles knows that you turn the ignition key on and wait until the "Wait to Start" light goes out. During this "Wait to Start" period, the glow plugs are warming the combustion chambers, which greatly aids the engine in starting.

There is one glow plug per cylinder, but over time these $20 devices burn out. Most FCPS buses have 8 cylinder engines and if one glow plug is inop it doesn't make much difference. As more of them burn out, the harder starting the engine becomes in cold weather. There comes a point where you can forget about the engine starting, period. Properly functioning glow plugs will enable starting down to about zero degrees F. Below that, the block heater must be plugged in to an AC outlet.

For some reason, the bus garages will not replace glow plugs until the bus won't start at all in any weather. I wonder if they even know how to do it?

I'm a shade tree mechanic and I have replaced the glow plugs in my Ford Powerstroke diesel (the SAME engine that is in most FCPS buses) and it's no big deal. Just pop the valve covers off and replace them. Sometimes it's just the glow plug relay that's bad and that's a really simple fix.

Wow, I actually learned something in this thread. Thanks.

Glow plugs and glow plug relays are issues, but also since a battery is a chemical device, its capacity drops dramatically in cold temperatures. So something like the Microstart may help in many cases.

Also sometimes older, worn starters do not spin the engine fast enough and this causes issues.

Glow plugs are often only $5 a piece depending on the style and how many are purchased. The are also STUPID easy to test on the engine.

Some of the glow plug timers are too short in the newer trucks as well, trying to get things like a gasoline engine where you do not have to wait. I have extended the glow plug times on some of the Ford Diesels because they were just too short.

Yes, of course if there is/was and engine heater this would also make things much easier as well.

A have a car with a battery. It started fine this morning.

Half of the United States and other counties are able to get their buses started???

and lots & lots of paid staffers to support our Excellent schools.
Besides, mechanics and stuff are dirty and nasty, so we don't do that shit.

duh they do. county lies

why doesn't your brain work warm or cold weather ?

As far as I know engine block heaters aren't that expensive. Seems like it may be worth it considering the huge hassle involved in closing schools.

Not to mention the comment above about checking the glow plugs ahead of time.

Why does the school system (and county, re: plowing) act so amateurish when everyone knows we live in a state where there's cold or snow. Is everyone in denial or something? Not like we live in the Bahamas.

good information in here.

Let's be very clear here. It is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE that these buses will not crank or crank and fail to start in cold weather.
The maintenance is supposed to be PREVENTATIVE. That is why it's called a PM.
It is to prevent foreseeable breakdowns or malfunctions.
In warmer weather, the glow plugs aren't critical, so they go ignored until a cold snap. That is a HUGE Fucking Fail for whoever is in charge of maintenance of these busses. The lazy bastards roll the dice in the hopes that it won't get cold enough to matter. Or worse, they are entitled to their jobs, regardless of performance, so they willfully ignore their duty.
Same with the batteries. If they are more than 2 years old, or have been sitting partially discharged, they are compromised. Add some terminal or cable corrosion, a weak starter that draws more amps than it should, a tired engine with low compression or weak injectors and it's no wonder these turds won't crank long enough to start or at all.
This ain't rocket science or magic. It's Basic Preventative Maintence failures (or failing to properly diagnose root causes so accurate repairs can be made)on a large scale.
Fire the Maintenance Supervisor and most of the techs. Or at least retrain them and monitor them and hold their asses accountable when this shit happens.
Retire or properly repair the tired busses. With all the money this county wastes, this expense will hardly be noticed.

Exactly. And if states up north can deal with this then we can too. Growing up in a cold northern state we had maybe one day off every 5 years.

Nanook is a moron, the glow plug guy is smart.

Heck, Metro and Fairfax Connector have no trouble in the cold weather with buses. I'll go with poor management and maintenance.

Big Wrench Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's be very clear here. It is COMPLETELY
> UNACCEPTABLE that these buses will not crank or
> crank and fail to start in cold weather.
> The maintenance is supposed to be PREVENTATIVE.
> That is why it's called a PM.
> It is to prevent foreseeable breakdowns or
> malfunctions.
> In warmer weather, the glow plugs aren't critical,
> so they go ignored until a cold snap. That is a
> HUGE Fucking Fail for whoever is in charge of
> maintenance of these busses. The lazy bastards
> roll the dice in the hopes that it won't get cold
> enough to matter. Or worse, they are entitled to
> their jobs, regardless of performance, so they
> willfully ignore their duty.
> Same with the batteries. If they are more than 2
> years old, or have been sitting partially
> discharged, they are compromised. Add some
> terminal or cable corrosion, a weak starter that
> draws more amps than it should, a tired engine
> with low compression or weak injectors and it's no
> wonder these turds won't crank long enough to
> start or at all.
> This ain't rocket science or magic. It's Basic
> Preventative Maintence failures (or failing to
> properly diagnose root causes so accurate repairs
> can be made)on a large scale.
> Fire the Maintenance Supervisor and most of the
> techs. Or at least retrain them and monitor them
> and hold their asses accountable when this shit
> happens.
> Retire or properly repair the tired busses. With
> all the money this county wastes, this expense
> will hardly be noticed.

The bus depot clowns are reactive and not proactive.

They have all Summer to go through the buses methodically and if there was a "PROPER" test procedure, Voltage Drop, Starter Draw, Cranking RPM, Glow Plug Relay and Glow Plugs themselves could be quickly tested.

The other problem with glow plugs is they are like light bulbs, when one or more burn out in an engine, they should ALL be replaced otherwise they will be playing "Whack A Mole" as the other glow plugs fail shortly there after.

I bet glow plugs probably cost between $40-$100 per bus.

They have enough buses the garage could benchmark good buses, using clamp on Ampmeters could quickly test glow plugs, starters and so forth and DOCUMENT each bus.

I would gather if you went out of the garage you would find little to no documentation for the buses as well as no scheduled/planned maintenance program.

Additionally I hear that MOCO purchased heated engine blankets for most of their buses so this may be why they had fewer problems?

Hell, get the old smudge pot and light it and put it under the oil pan. Any of the buses that have bad oil leaks will quickly be removed from the fleet if they did this!

I agree. Its basic. Either they are mechanics or they are not. Hang Transportation out to dry.

causeican Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree. Its basic. Either they are mechanics or
> they are not. Hang Transportation out to dry.

The County provides maintenance to the busses, like they do for the police and fire vehicles. FCPS does not have a maintenance staff to do this.

And if the County is like the schools, they've probably reduced their maintenance staff over the years because of budget reductions and the politicians' insistence to shift funds for basic services (like vehicle maintenance) over to social programs and pet projects to get them re-elected.

I've heard the schools' building maintenance group has something like 150 less repair workers than it did in the late 1970's or 80's.

The naked stupidity evident in this thread is simply staggering.

Curmudgeon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> honest inquiry here -- does anyone know why,
> exactly, our buses are rendered inoperable by cold
> weather, yet school buses in much colder places
> manage the winter just fine?

Have you taken a good look at the people who drive them?

kev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as I know engine block heaters aren't that
> expensive. Seems like it may be worth it
> considering the huge hassle involved in closing
> schools.
>
> Not to mention the comment above about checking
> the glow plugs ahead of time.
>
> Why does the school system (and county, re:
> plowing) act so amateurish when everyone knows we
> live in a state where there's cold or snow. Is
> everyone in denial or something? Not like we live
> in the Bahamas.


All the deisel buses have block heaters from the factory. What we do not have is a place to plug them in.
A few problem buses are kept plugged in but the bus lot and the schools that some of the buses stay have no power available.

^ Sounds like a third world problem---no electricity? How about getting some generators (or renting them from construction companies) on the nights when they expect cold?

Nail On The Head Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Big Wrench Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Let's be very clear here. It is COMPLETELY
> > UNACCEPTABLE that these buses will not crank or
> > crank and fail to start in cold weather.
> > The maintenance is supposed to be PREVENTATIVE.
> > That is why it's called a PM.
> > It is to prevent foreseeable breakdowns or
> > malfunctions.
> > In warmer weather, the glow plugs aren't
> critical,
> > so they go ignored until a cold snap. That is a
> > HUGE Fucking Fail for whoever is in charge of
> > maintenance of these busses. The lazy bastards
> > roll the dice in the hopes that it won't get
> cold
> > enough to matter. Or worse, they are entitled
> to
> > their jobs, regardless of performance, so they
> > willfully ignore their duty.
> > Same with the batteries. If they are more than
> 2
> > years old, or have been sitting partially
> > discharged, they are compromised. Add some
> > terminal or cable corrosion, a weak starter
> that
> > draws more amps than it should, a tired engine
> > with low compression or weak injectors and it's
> no
> > wonder these turds won't crank long enough to
> > start or at all.
> > This ain't rocket science or magic. It's Basic
> > Preventative Maintence failures (or failing to
> > properly diagnose root causes so accurate
> repairs
> > can be made)on a large scale.
> > Fire the Maintenance Supervisor and most of the
> > techs. Or at least retrain them and monitor
> them
> > and hold their asses accountable when this shit
> > happens.
> > Retire or properly repair the tired busses.
> With
> > all the money this county wastes, this expense
> > will hardly be noticed.
>
> The bus depot clowns are reactive and not
> proactive.
>
> They have all Summer to go through the buses
> methodically and if there was a "PROPER" test
> procedure, Voltage Drop, Starter Draw, Cranking
> RPM, Glow Plug Relay and Glow Plugs themselves
> could be quickly tested.
>
> The other problem with glow plugs is they are like
> light bulbs, when one or more burn out in an
> engine, they should ALL be replaced otherwise they
> will be playing "Whack A Mole" as the other glow
> plugs fail shortly there after.
>
> I bet glow plugs probably cost between $40-$100
> per bus.
>
> They have enough buses the garage could benchmark
> good buses, using clamp on Ampmeters could quickly
> test glow plugs, starters and so forth and
> DOCUMENT each bus.
>
> I would gather if you went out of the garage you
> would find little to no documentation for the
> buses as well as no scheduled/planned maintenance
> program.
>
> Additionally I hear that MOCO purchased heated
> engine blankets for most of their buses so this
> may be why they had fewer problems?
>
> Hell, get the old smudge pot and light it and put
> it under the oil pan. Any of the buses that have
> bad oil leaks will quickly be removed from the
> fleet if they did this!


We have 12 days over what is required to educate your childen by law . It would cost a fortune to replace or make all our buses ready to go or replace them for a couple of sub freezing temperatures in va. We hve the second biggest aging bus fleet in the country and no money !!! no money I REPEAT NO MONEY . thE EXPENSE WOULD BE NOTICED. I DO NOT WANT TO PAY MORE IN TAXES. SORRY YOU HAVE TO HANG OUT WITH YOUR KID BUT GET OVER IT.

really? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^ Sounds like a third world problem---no
> electricity? How about getting some generators
> (or renting them from construction companies) on
> the nights when they expect cold?


THIS COST MONEY NOT JUST FOR EQUIPEMENT BUT OVERTIME LAOBR THIS IS NOT BUDGETED AND FOR THE FORTUne TELLER TO TELL WHICH DAYS THE BUSS'S WILL TO START . remember the buss's hit the road around 5:00 am

We build snowdays into the schedule - relax everyone. So the kids stay home a few days. So what. The only people I hear complaining are:

1. people with no kids

2. people that are upset because the interruption of free transportation to free daycare for their kids will mess with them playing flappy bird at their desks at work. Parents that outsource parenting.

3. Parents driving their kids to an early grave because the deem every day at school as critical to, well, everything.

Good Lord, enjoy the extra time with your kids, tell your boss to screw off, have a cup of tea and watch a movie with the young ones - they wont be around forever.

bus guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kev Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As far as I know engine block heaters aren't
> that
> > expensive. Seems like it may be worth it
> > considering the huge hassle involved in closing
> > schools.
> >
> > Not to mention the comment above about checking
> > the glow plugs ahead of time.
> >
> > Why does the school system (and county, re:
> > plowing) act so amateurish when everyone knows
> we
> > live in a state where there's cold or snow. Is
> > everyone in denial or something? Not like we
> live
> > in the Bahamas.
>
>
> All the deisel buses have block heaters from the
> factory. What we do not have is a place to plug
> them in.
> A few problem buses are kept plugged in but the
> bus lot and the schools that some of the buses
> stay have no power available.


Well, there you are! Now, how do we get this info to the appropriate person. FfU could save us billions on studies to resolve this problem. Well done.

EXACTLY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> THIS COST MONEY NOT JUST FOR EQUIPEMENT BUT
> OVERTIME LAOBR THIS IS NOT BUDGETED AND FOR THE
> FORTUne TELLER TO TELL WHICH DAYS THE BUSS'S WILL
> TO START . remember the buss's hit the road around
> 5:00 am


BUSS'S?

That's the best spelling fuck up I've seen in quite a while. Good one!

BUY A FORD SCHOOL BUSSES THEY'RE FORD TOUGH !!

(ps someone at ford buy that pls)
Attachments:

Greatjobnowwhat? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bus guy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > kev Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > As far as I know engine block heaters aren't
> > that
> > > expensive. Seems like it may be worth it
> > > considering the huge hassle involved in
> closing
> > > schools.
> > >
> > > Not to mention the comment above about
> checking
> > > the glow plugs ahead of time.
> > >
> > > Why does the school system (and county, re:
> > > plowing) act so amateurish when everyone
> knows
> > we
> > > live in a state where there's cold or snow.
> Is
> > > everyone in denial or something? Not like we
> > live
> > > in the Bahamas.
> >
> >
> > All the deisel buses have block heaters from
> the
> > factory. What we do not have is a place to plug
> > them in.
> > A few problem buses are kept plugged in but the
> > bus lot and the schools that some of the buses
> > stay have no power available.
>
>
> Well, there you are! Now, how do we get this info
> to the appropriate person. FfU could save us
> billions on studies to resolve this problem. Well
> done.

Yes because Im sure providing individual electric plug-ins for 1700+ buses in parking lots will be free. They park a lot of the buses in school lots. Are you going to install 120v electric supplies in the parking lots of schools? Who will watch out that kids dont mess with the power? I suspect that the cost of supplying plugs for all the buses in municipal lots like off Picket would be possible (though expensive) but I cannot see providing elec. for school parking lots and the street.

^Bring in the electric generators. The construction companies have them and they are not working on construction projects on those cold days anyway. Rent them.


This is a problem begging to be solved. Don't give up so easily.

Also someone said that 20% of the buses won't start. So we're not talking about 1700 buses. We're talking about 340 buses. And if they had been maintained properly, the number could be less.

real number Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also someone said that 20% of the buses won't
> start. So we're not talking about 1700 buses.
> We're talking about 340 buses. And if they had
> been maintained properly, the number could be
> less.


FCPS has around 1600 buses. BUT, around 400 of them are "spare" buses. Buses, by law, must be serviced about every two months. When a bus is in for service (or repair), the driver is given a spare bus to drive.

So, there are really only about 1200some buses actually in service on any given day.

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/support/transportation/school_buses/preventive_maintenance_manual.pdf

plug-ins for 1700+ buses Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Greatjobnowwhat? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > bus guy Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > kev Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > As far as I know engine block heaters
> aren't
> > > that
> > > > expensive. Seems like it may be worth it
> > > > considering the huge hassle involved in
> > closing
> > > > schools.
> > > >
> > > > Not to mention the comment above about
> > checking
> > > > the glow plugs ahead of time.
> > > >
> > > > Why does the school system (and county, re:
> > > > plowing) act so amateurish when everyone
> > knows
> > > we
> > > > live in a state where there's cold or snow.
> > Is
> > > > everyone in denial or something? Not like
> we
> > > live
> > > > in the Bahamas.
> > >
> > >
> > > All the deisel buses have block heaters from
> > the
> > > factory. What we do not have is a place to
> plug
> > > them in.
> > > A few problem buses are kept plugged in but
> the
> > > bus lot and the schools that some of the
> buses
> > > stay have no power available.
> >
> >
> > Well, there you are! Now, how do we get this
> info
> > to the appropriate person. FfU could save us
> > billions on studies to resolve this problem.
> Well
> > done.
>
> Yes because Im sure providing individual electric
> plug-ins for 1700+ buses in parking lots will be
> free. They park a lot of the buses in school
> lots. Are you going to install 120v electric
> supplies in the parking lots of schools? Who will
> watch out that kids dont mess with the power? I
> suspect that the cost of supplying plugs for all
> the buses in municipal lots like off Picket would
> be possible (though expensive) but I cannot see
> providing elec. for school parking lots and the
> street.

Yes, bus parking is designed so that every bus has a electric feed. Now shut your dumbass lib mouth and do what the Jews tell you.

A block heater draws about 10 amps. So 1200 buses = 12,000 amps continuous draw. Of course the circuits need to be higher than that, so at you'll need at least a 15,000-amp panel.

For those who can't do the math, that's about 12 megawatts continuous draw. That's enough power for more than 10,000 homes (average).

Nice contract for the electrician who gets it...

(Please check my math, someone -- I'm watching TV, so semi-distracted, but I *think* it's right. Might be off by an order of magnitude in one direction or the other, though...)

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A block heater draws about 10 amps. So 1200 buses
> = 12,000 amps continuous draw. Of course the
> circuits need to be higher than that, so at you'll
> need at least a 15,000-amp panel.
>
> For those who can't do the math, that's about 12
> megawatts continuous draw. That's enough power for
> more than 10,000 homes (average).
>
> Nice contract for the electrician who gets it...
>
> (Please check my math, someone -- I'm watching TV,
> so semi-distracted, but I *think* it's right.
> Might be off by an order of magnitude in one
> direction or the other, though...)

Your math says 1200 buses = 10,000 homes worth of power? No way. 10 amps on 1 bus does not equal 8 homes. 1 home circuit is usually 20 amps+. I don't know what size home your referring, but I'm in a small home with a 150 amp breaker box. That's 100 homes of my size with room to spare

Somebody didn't pass their math SOL . . .

I think your thinking watts Greybeard, but just the practicality or 1200 extension cords plugged in somewhere is mind blowing in itself. I suggest 16 oz diet pepsi to 2 oz rum, eventually it will blur. I do recall back in the middle 70's most buses where gasoline, the drivers put the chains on the buses when they picked us up at Laurel Ridge during a snow storm. I doubt many Drivers are retired Truck Drivers or even have any knowledge of Diesel engine operation. if they built a Parking Garage like the VRE station at Burke Centre, to accommodate 1200 buses. well let's say, make the kids walk. Charge the parents for Stupidity, and dock the pay of the teachers.

What a fucking stupid idea to the idiot who said use generators. First problem is the busses are parked all over the county asswipe. Renting possibly hundreds of generators sure would be a problem don't you think so? Secondly how many miles of electrical cord would be needed? I bet more than all of the home depots in 4 states have. just the logistics of your idea is mind boggling stupid. I would not consider you such a retard if you would have suggested driving all the buses to Florida for the day.

Smudge Pot!
Attachments:

It is simple physics. At 17 degrees F or lower, diesel fuel gels up and will not run thru the fuel pump. Additives are needed, but at super cold temps below this you can still have gelling problems. With 1,000 plus school busses each day, you will have some problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_point_(petroleum)

Extension cords are not at all out of the question. Nor are fuel additives. Think about the man hours lost at an hourly rate. That adds up awfully quick. One good extension cord could be bought for less than the cost of 2 man hours. That cord can last a good long time if used only for buses. Additives are cheaper than man hours too. Though they need to be replaced. And the glow plug situation, its cheaper to replace all glow plugs at once than to spend man hours hunting down bad ones. Fairfax just doesn't have their priorities right. Their mindset costs more in the long run

Well it seems everyone is getting really "ampped" up about the block heater situation. The fact of the matter is that this situation is a long running "cycle" that really "hertz". Some of the county parents really blew a "fuse" this week when we had multiple bus problems. I talked to one bus driver who said that her brand new bus "Ohm"most didn't start while some of the older buses offered no "resistance" when they were started. The bottom line is that getting power to all the buses would be a budget "breaker".

Thanks for summarizing the CURRENT situation. Perhaps this will SPARK some new debate, though I am POSITIVE that many will be re-VOLT-ed when it comes to the CHARGE for any new ideas. We may end up with NEGATIVE GAIN from all this.

"The bottom line is that getting power to all the buses would be a budget "breaker"."


Dollar number please.

This is so stupid, typical all or nothing idealism.

Yes it costs money to run power and heat the buses.

Yes it costs money and takes time to properly test batteries, glow plugs and make sure fuel additive is used.

But it also costs a lot of money mobilizing everyone to then just close schools for the day.

First off engine heaters do not need to be run all winter. There should be a thermostat and timer so that any buses that are plugged in can be heated on an AS NEEDED basis. You cannot rely on staff to do this with like 1700 buses in may different locations.

Some heating of engines is better than none. This would allow at least a number of the buses to start without issues and then the maintenance staff can focus on a smaller number of buses.

How about battery maintainers, not sure if these buses have them, but this is a few low current draw item that can keep the batteries fully charged at all times. I am guessing this is needed anyway for the "spare" buses and the buses that are not used during the Summer.

So why not take baby steps, focus on the areas that need to be addressed, do something rather than nothing, it may take years to solve these problems, but no action is also stupid and to say you can never do anything because of money is also a cop out. There are people standing around doing nothing within FCPS that could chip in, think outside of the box and improve things with little effort and money.

But even listening to the whiners here on FFU, typical bots that follow the cows, it is ALL OR NOTHING!!

I go by they 80/20 rule. 80% of the problems can be improved/solved with 20% time/effort/money, but it takes 80% more time/effort/money to have a 100% solution. So sometimes 80% is good enough and is far better than 0%!

Yes this will cost money, but the

>One good extension cord could be bought for less than the cost of 2 man hours

I don't think you have ever worked in the government sector. Once you buy some extension cords, you are going to need a safety group to inspect these cords on a periodic basis. If already have a safety group (I am so sorry to hear that) they will need additional manpower (because they are already at the limit of what they can safely inspect). But before you can even buy a power cord, you will need to get some engineers involved to verify that the right cords will be bought. How big are the block heaters? How long will the extension cords need to be? What temperatures will they be used in? Will you need built in GFCI. Ok, you are finally read to buy some, but you need to bid this out and then someone in purchasing selects the lowest price model that meets your specifications. The accountants now get involved. Extension cords might be borrowed for home use so the extension cords need to be tracked as inventory so the government can keep track of the thefts. Assign them all unique serial number and find a tag that is durable enough for outdoor rugged use (see bidding process) Now, you will need a training program so human resources gets involved to train all the drivers how to use the extension cord and the block heater. This will require weeks of development as outside consultants are brought in because your local human resources group aren't experts in diesel engines. Finally, you get to use the cord. Because they bought the low bid item, it falls apart after one year. The tag with the serial number is fine though.

eWcXm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >One good extension cord could be bought for less
> than the cost of 2 man hours
>
> I don't think you have ever worked in the
> government sector. Once you buy some extension
> cords, you are going to need a safety group to
> inspect these cords on a periodic basis. If
> already have a safety group (I am so sorry to hear
> that) they will need additional manpower (because
> they are already at the limit of what they can
> safely inspect). But before you can even buy a
> power cord, you will need to get some engineers
> involved to verify that the right cords will be
> bought. How big are the block heaters? How long
> will the extension cords need to be? What
> temperatures will they be used in? Will you need
> built in GFCI. Ok, you are finally read to buy
> some, but you need to bid this out and then
> someone in purchasing selects the lowest price
> model that meets your specifications. The
> accountants now get involved. Extension cords
> might be borrowed for home use so the extension
> cords need to be tracked as inventory so the
> government can keep track of the thefts. Assign
> them all unique serial number and find a tag that
> is durable enough for outdoor rugged use (see
> bidding process) Now, you will need a training
> program so human resources gets involved to train
> all the drivers how to use the extension cord and
> the block heater. This will require weeks of
> development as outside consultants are brought in
> because your local human resources group aren't
> experts in diesel engines. Finally, you get to
> use the cord. Because they bought the low bid
> item, it falls apart after one year. The tag with
> the serial number is fine though.

So sad, but so true!

This is why the bus needs an integral shore cord that is at least 20 feet long!

Oh, but what happens when the driver forgets to unplug the cord before they drive off. Oh yea, just as the FCPD about their helicopter that they forgot to unplug!

c34GH Wrote:

> Oh yea,just as the FCPD about their helicopter that they forgot to unplug!


This is one I have to hear about. Please tell us more.

Best thread this year. Sounds like our conversations at dinner.

Whatever happened to Globle Warming?

Back when we were allowed to take our school buses home many of us did run an extension cord out to the bus on a cold night. Whoever said the block heaters draw 10 amps is completely wrong. The Buses that we drive now have heaters that draw 3.2 amps at 120 volts and they cycle on and off, they do not draw that constantly.
We have cold weather problems with the buses 2 or 3 mornings a year. That is a minor problem that we have always worked around it does not need to be fixed and there is no need to spend a bunch of tax dollars to correct it.

Oh yeah by the way the county claims that we can not take our buses home because the buses are possible terrorist targets and they must be parked in monitored locations only. What a bunch of BS!

Cause infrastructure is for silly conservatives. Liberals are progressive and dont need that shit. we need more programs for the blacks damnit!

Say What? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c34GH Wrote:
>
> > Oh yea,just as the FCPD about their helicopter
> that they forgot to unplug!
>
>
> This is one I have to hear about. Please tell us
> more.

http://fairfaxcountypolicegreatesthits.blogspot.com/2012/04/county-police-department-replaces.html

All school bus storage has electric heaters for busses. It is just an excuse to close school because libs are to lazy and weak to go out in the cold. How dare anybody make little Johnny wait for a bus in the cold.

civil engineer here Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All school bus storage has electric heaters for busses.

That's wrong. Go fuck yourself.

> It is just an excuse to close school because libs are to
> lazy and weak to go out in the cold. How dare anybody make
> little Johnny wait for a bus in the cold.

That's stupid. Go fuck yourself.

Uncivil engineer here Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> civil engineer here Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All school bus storage has electric heaters for
> busses.
>
> That's wrong. Go fuck yourself.
>
> > It is just an excuse to close school because
> libs are to
> > lazy and weak to go out in the cold. How dare
> anybody make
> > little Johnny wait for a bus in the cold.
>
> That's stupid. Go fuck yourself.

I know it's stupid, but that's liberalism.

not quite right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Greybeard Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A block heater draws about 10 amps. So 1200
> buses
> > = 12,000 amps continuous draw. Of course the
> > circuits need to be higher than that, so at
> you'll
> > need at least a 15,000-amp panel.
> >
> > For those who can't do the math, that's about
> 12
> > megawatts continuous draw. That's enough power
> for
> > more than 10,000 homes (average).
> >
> > Nice contract for the electrician who gets
> it...
> >
> > (Please check my math, someone -- I'm watching
> TV,
> > so semi-distracted, but I *think* it's right.
> > Might be off by an order of magnitude in one
> > direction or the other, though...)
>
> Your math says 1200 buses = 10,000 homes worth of
> power? No way. 10 amps on 1 bus does not equal 8
> homes. 1 home circuit is usually 20 amps+. I don't
> know what size home your referring, but I'm in a
> small home with a 150 amp breaker box. That's 100
> homes of my size with room to spare

Average home draw is about 1 KW. So that's 10 amps. So yeah, I *was* off by an order of magnitude. I plead exhaustion and distraction. But I *did* warn that I might have been off...

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> not quite right Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Greybeard Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > A block heater draws about 10 amps. So 1200
> > buses
> > > = 12,000 amps continuous draw. Of course the
> > > circuits need to be higher than that, so at
> > you'll
> > > need at least a 15,000-amp panel.
> > >
> > > For those who can't do the math, that's about
> > 12
> > > megawatts continuous draw. That's enough
> power
> > for
> > > more than 10,000 homes (average).
> > >
> > > Nice contract for the electrician who gets
> > it...
> > >
> > > (Please check my math, someone -- I'm
> watching
> > TV,
> > > so semi-distracted, but I *think* it's right.
> > > Might be off by an order of magnitude in one
> > > direction or the other, though...)
> >
> > Your math says 1200 buses = 10,000 homes worth
> of
> > power? No way. 10 amps on 1 bus does not equal
> 8
> > homes. 1 home circuit is usually 20 amps+. I
> don't
> > know what size home your referring, but I'm in
> a
> > small home with a 150 amp breaker box. That's
> 100
> > homes of my size with room to spare
>
> Average home draw is about 1 KW. So that's 10
> amps. So yeah, I *was* off by an order of
> magnitude. I plead exhaustion and distraction. But
> I *did* warn that I might have been off...


Average home draw is 1kw?????
I am running my electric dryer now. It draws 13.36A @ 240v.
You have not the slightest little clue do you?

sparkyy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Average home draw is 1kw?????
> I am running my electric dryer now. It draws
> 13.36A @ 240v.
> You have not the slightest little clue do you?

You run the dryer 24x7? Then I guess you're above the average.

Per http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3 :
"...the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,837 kWh, an average of 903 kilowatthours (kWh) per month."

There are ~720 hours in a month. So that's a bit over 1 kilowatt hour per hour average. Mayhap that page is totally wrong, but that's what I based my assertion on.

We can hire some el salvadorian immigrants to rub the motors warm at night





Rub that oil pan nice and slow, hernandez

Two words: union labor.

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sparkyy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Average home draw is 1kw?????
> > I am running my electric dryer now. It draws
> > 13.36A @ 240v.
> > You have not the slightest little clue do you?
>
> You run the dryer 24x7? Then I guess you're above
> the average.
>
> Per
> http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3 :
> "...the average annual electricity consumption for
> a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,837
> kWh, an average of 903 kilowatthours (kWh) per
> month."
>
> There are ~720 hours in a month. So that's a bit
> over 1 kilowatt hour per hour average. Mayhap that
> page is totally wrong, but that's what I based my
> assertion on.


Okay man You need to learn the difference between a kw and a kwh. Figure that out and you might start to get a tiny clue.

"Two words: union labor"


In a right to work state? Don't think so.

sparkyy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay man You need to learn the difference between
> a kw and a kwh. Figure that out and you might
> start to get a tiny clue.

OK, eddicate [sic] me, son.

The kilowatt-hour (symbolized kWh) is a unit of energy equivalent to one kilowatt (1 kW) of power expended for one hour.

So...if you use 100 kWh in 100 hours, that's an average of 1 kW load, no? What have I done wrong? It's been a while, but...

Meanwhile, FTR, you keep complaining but not actually adding any information. Do you actually have any?

How come only the handicapped buses have air conditioning in them? Its discrimination against non retard kids.

h s kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How come only the handicapped buses have air
> conditioning in them? Its discrimination against
> non retard kids.


About half the big buses have A/C. 2002 model year and up.

Whether it works or not is the question. Very few work well, many sort of work, and a bunch don't work at all.

bds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> h s kid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How come only the handicapped buses have air
> > conditioning in them? Its discrimination
> against
> > non retard kids.
>
>
> About half the big buses have A/C. 2002 model
> year and up.
>
> Whether it works or not is the question. Very few
> work well, many sort of work, and a bunch don't
> work at all.


School is out most of the summer. Do kids really need to have air conditioned Bus rides? I can understand that special needs kids need A/C.

I thought it was bc the air brakes freeze and become unresponsive. Not so much about engine turnover, but more about the brakes.

My buddy is a driver. Drivers get paid on snow days. You think they are trying REALLY hard to get those buses to work when it's cold? You think they really give a shit if they don't plug it in and eventually buses don't start on cold days and then they get a paid day off when it's cold next time? You think mechanics want everything to work properly all the time so that they can cut hours and work less overtime? Please you bunch of dumb asses...what planet are you all living on? This is the REAL world.

School busses from the City of Alexandria were running just fine on those cold mornings when FCPS closed, by the way. Their busses look the same. Different engines or something? Better maintained?

Buses everywhere in the region faced the same circumstances and the same problems. As reports came in, FCPS decided it would be better to close than to leave kids outside in near-zero temperatures trying to reach or wait for buses that might be delayed due to starting problems. Other areas were okay with the risks of letting their kids stand out there and freeze.

FN4My Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Buses everywhere in the region faced the same
> circumstances and the same problems. As reports
> came in, FCPS decided it would be better to close
> than to leave kids outside in near-zero
> temperatures trying to reach or wait for buses
> that might be delayed due to starting problems.
> Other areas were okay with the risks of letting
> their kids stand out there and freeze.

We aren't falling for that this year.

Little Bradon, Aiden, Johnny, Jose, and Madison don't like going to school when it's cold outside.

Send an Email to your Elected Official and ask them why they paid top dollar for these 2nd class busses. Then look to see if anyone received campaign Contributions from the seller. VOTE TRUMP.

FCPS is going back to "conventional" buses (with the hood out front). They are MUCH cheaper than the flat front kind.

With the savings they are equipping the new buses with engine pre-heaters (don't need to be plugged in).

AND the new buses have Cummins engines! Far, far superior engine that the junk Navistar engines that the rest of the fleet has.

The bad news is there are less than 200 of the new buses. The rest of the fleet is still the same unreliable junk that wouldn't start last winter.

Actually we need to dump that Trump. He'll just make it even easier for big corporations and big government to shake hands with each other.

There's another guy that wasn't afraid to ask the right questions and if he knew about these issues with buses wouldn't be afraid to say something *and be blasted for it by the media* but nobody likes him because he is a *shudder* Christian.

OMG! Hide under your beds!