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Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Alex Churchman ()
Date: May 14, 2005 05:52AM

Check out hr1268 sec 102, it already got passed.
http://www.theorator.com/bills109/hr1268.html

Sec 102 just gave the right for the head of homeland security to waive laws in a specific instance, with no judicial review.
Thats right ladies and gentlemen The legislative branch just legislated the judiciary out of power.

If it works this once, whats to stop it working again.
The Supreme court is the only body that has kept congress from enacting unconstitutional laws time and time again.
I am so scared right now.
No one is covering this. Please I beg you as a fellow american tell everyone you know.

-Alex-
For a more in depth look at this section and its ramifications go to the site below
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050509-4886.html

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: May 14, 2005 09:59AM

Though I agree with your complaint in priciple, the section also says that this is limited to construction of barriers at borders.

It is time for you to stop compaining and just put your trust in our leader, Richard Cheney.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 14, 2005 10:22AM

I think they are going the extra mile to keep mexi... terrorists out. whatever, why even bother caring? if you can do absolutely nothing to change it, stop caring. if you believe you can do something to change it, you are deluded. if there where something truely pressing, it would come to light. nobody cares if it isnt an inconvienice to them. i just dont care because soooo many other zealots are doing several hundred times too much enevatably blowing up in there face. in short, stop worrying and enjoy life for what it is, not worry what it could become.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Alex Churchman ()
Date: May 14, 2005 02:12PM

It isa not so much this specific instance that I am worried about. It is the fact that apparently the judiciary can be legislated out.

What is to stop the no judicial review clause from being attached to anything?
Be it good or bad.

Take the recent Terry Schiavo case, what about if no judicial review was attached to the federal law that was passed?

What about if a no judicial review clause was attached to a anti-abortion bill, or a pro abortion bill?

The Supreme court is thing only body that has consistently stayed honest and true to the basic principles of our constitution, if they can be bypassed one they will be bypassed constantly.

I see that as a fundamental shift in the process of our governement.

But call me paranoid. I hope to god that I am.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 15, 2005 07:58AM

Alex Churchman,
Judicial review cannot be written out. While the law was passed, it can be overrulled still. I would also like to point out that nobody has ever presentented a "pro abortion" bill. They present pro-choice bills. A pro-abortion bill implies that pregnancies would be aborted by law. [rant] People would be outraged. Personally, I am sick and tired of worthless people having kids and then "take care" of them when really they end up in some shit family which likely has little or no income and it's only the mother and her other illegitimate kids. For this reason, I am pro-abortion and pro-postpregnancy-abortion. In short, kill the parents and abort the fetus. Sure, it's insane and evil but I don't support shitty parenting.[/rant] The same horrific type bills have been already past, aka The Patriot Act, and yet I have not been secretly arrested and secretly executed. However, if it gets out of hand, there would be riots. So grab a brick and aim for the head. :)


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 16, 2005 12:56PM

In the name of terrorism, this hate-mongering president and cabinet is crushing what's left of our rights. Downright scary what everyday-folks will allow when fed enough fear propaganda. I'm not for nor against Clinton but does anyone remember living in fear so much that they allowed such things as retna scanning, near-abuse at airports, etc. to occur? We as a people have rolled over and oiled out asses for governmental reaming ... AND, we don't mind.

Click around http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/ for some really good conspiracy theory stuff. True?? Who knows ... just some additional opinions so we're not all blinded by the traditional media.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: kklare ()
Date: May 16, 2005 01:01PM

And those little spiders that crawl under your door to scan your retina... those are creepy too. And don't get me started about the precogs...

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 16, 2005 09:56PM

kklare,
Ha! I just watched that last night.

PaperPusher,
I hope you aren't being politically driven but I'll give you the benifit of doubt(unlike fairfax city). I had someone who was completely convinced that 9/11 was a conspiracy and other things too. However, as for 9/11, the conspiracy they lay out is so complex and intricute involving so many people that it is simply not possible. The simple fact is that the government is slow. I've gone over the theories in detail and have considered it possible. In realization of the extreme organization of THOUSANDS of people, who of coarse won't say a peep, is not feasable. Drink Coke, Play Again.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: kklare ()
Date: May 17, 2005 10:20AM

I love conspiracy theories, and there are some interesting 911 ones out there. Gravis is right though. If you've ever worked with the govt, and I have been doing so exclusively for years now, you will know how difficult it is for ANYTHING to get done. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but I wouldn't give our gov't so much credit that they'd be able to pull that off.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: rstidman ()
Date: May 17, 2005 10:44AM

Admittedly, NIH took a month to get me a parking pass, imagine if they actually had to save a life... the paper trail would never end

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 17, 2005 02:34PM

kklare,

Not sure if a strong dislike for our current president qualifies as being politically driven but if so then fine. I suppose the bottom line for me is that as a nation we were hoodwinked into supporting a war that never should be happening. From there and looking backwards, I have to wonder if there were other circumstances where we were deceived throughout his presidency. Just have to wonder, that's all.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 17, 2005 02:47PM

PaperPusher,
Think of it this way, that sadistic bastard, Sadam, is all locked away. If you point to the torturers, they too are being locked away. You can't change a government without bloodshed. Those who are still loyal to Sadam or someother jerk trying to become Iraqs next tyrant so they have to be stopped. I understand that there was not a true cause to begin this other than Sadam's rule had to stop somehow. As for the soldiers dying in battle, they did signup to die, if necessary, under the service of our country. I take no sides on this issue but I think it's a good thing that Sadam has been stopped. It does seem that the public was deceived but that can no longer be changed. Looking at this matter from a global perspective rather than simply an american one, changes the situation a lot. whatever.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 17, 2005 03:40PM

Gravis,
My problem with it is that no Iraqi person came to us asking that Saddam be removed. bush seemingly went on the warpath for his own selfish reason although I don't think it is clear what that is. If you want to view things from a global perspective, what about the slaughtering in Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Pakistan, etc? Could it be that those areas of the world have no natural resources that bush can exploit??

Just thoughts.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: kklare ()
Date: May 17, 2005 04:30PM

P.P., Having a strong dislike for our current president doesn't make you politically driven. In my opinion, it probably means that you are perceptive.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: rstidman ()
Date: May 17, 2005 09:17PM

I've been saying it for years so I'll say it again

Don Mattingly For President
Cal for VP

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: BushForHimselfOnly ()
Date: May 17, 2005 09:38PM

Gravis,
Not sure what planet you're from but folks don't sign up in the military to die. They sign up in hopes of making a better life for themselves or their families or for the educational benefits. Rich folks rarely if ever sign up in the military. I was in for 13 years and never once met anyone from an affluent background.

what global position are you taking? Globally, no one gave a shit that the iraqis may have been getting killed by their own government. I read lots of newspapers and never once heard of massacres in Iraq until AFTER Bush's invasion. I believe there's enough doubt involved to say that maybe it didn't really happen and that our government payrolled media reported what they were coaxed to report.

Don't PISS me off!

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: May 18, 2005 07:02AM

PaperPusher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gravis,
> My problem with it is that no Iraqi person came to
> us asking that Saddam be removed.

Oh, all those Kurds in northern Iraq didn't really dislike Sadam Hussein? I guess they thought having thousands of their number gassed was really a FAVOR to them, like thinning their herd for them?

> If you want to view things from a global perspective,
> what about the slaughtering in Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea,
> Pakistan, etc? Could it be that those areas of the world
> have no natural resources that bush can exploit??

What is happening in Sudan is awful and I wish someone would do something about it. However it's hard to pin this one on Bush... I don't see any other countries run by so much better leaders with more noble values unilaterally sending people over there to help the raped and starving.






Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2005 07:07AM by pgens.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 18, 2005 10:18AM

Did anyone research the Kurds and their alleged gassing or is it really the bush fed media seeking some other weak excuse for spreading his emperialism? All I'm saying is we've been lied to so many times by this administration that I seriously doubt all that his payrolled media machine reports.

Notice that bush isn't running to "save" Sudan or any other country. You miss my point here. bush will do nothing to save those countries because there's nothing in those countries for bush to pillage. iraq has oil. sudan has aids and starvation. bush wants no part of aids and starvation but he certainly wants the oil.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: kklare ()
Date: May 18, 2005 10:49AM

We're given little reason to believe anything this administration says. Even if they follow through with a proposed action (and we know, for better or worse that they will) they will change the reason for doing so without challenge. We'll just have to wait and see how the history books write this one off.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Mateo1 ()
Date: May 18, 2005 11:06AM

PaperPusher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did anyone research the Kurds and their alleged
> gassing or is it really the bush fed media seeking
> some other weak excuse for spreading his
> emperialism? All I'm saying is we've been lied to
> so many times by this administration that I
> seriously doubt all that his payrolled media
> machine reports.


Payrolled media? That's a pretty hefty charge. Are most Americans influenced by government sponsored media? We have a fairly powerful and independent press to counter anything released by the government....and they have in the past.


imperialism. (n), im·peri·al·'izm


I like your choice of name. "Please take a number and have a seat....welcome to the DMV."

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: May 18, 2005 02:32PM

PaperPusher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Notice that bush isn't running to "save" Sudan or
> any other country. You miss my point here. bush
> will do nothing to save those countries because
> there's nothing in those countries for bush to
> pillage. iraq has oil. sudan has aids and
> starvation. bush wants no part of aids and
> starvation but he certainly wants the oil.

No, I think you missed my point. My point was that true, Bush isn't running to save them, but on the other hand no other capable countries are either.


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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 18, 2005 11:41PM

Mateo1, no I didn't take the time to do a spell check - so shoot me. Obviously you had to look it up for yourself since you cut and pasted right out of the dictionary.

As for the hefty charge about the government payrolled media, you need to do some research for yourself to see that this "hefty charge" is a fact.

A name is a name. No doubt you have a paper pushing job yourself since you are able to log into here and add your penny's worth.

_________

pgens, no one is helping them because no one is asking for help. Same situation as iraq but yet bush chose to spread his "imperialism. (n), im·peri·al·'izm" on iraq because they have what he wants.

_________

I just am amazed that so many folks support what is arguably the worst president in modern history. He lies, buys off the media, kills thousands of innocent people, is trying to bankrupt the country, and the list could go on and on. Makes Clinton's blow job situation seem comical. Is that the worst thing he did in his presidency? Good for him. I'm no Clinton fan but the good he did for this country far outweighs any bad -- and compared to bush, Clinton deserves to be right up there in sainthood with the dead pope.


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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: I must be Dumb, or just plain retarde ()
Date: May 19, 2005 03:53AM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PaperPusher,
> Think of it this way, that sadistic bastard,
> Sadam, is all locked away. If you point to the
> torturers, they too are being locked away. You
> can't change a government without bloodshed.
> Those who are still loyal to Sadam or someother
> jerk trying to become Iraqs next tyrant so they
> have to be stopped. I understand that there was
> not a true cause to begin this other than Sadam's
> rule had to stop somehow. As for the soldiers
> dying in battle, they did signup to die, if
> necessary, under the service of our country. I
> take no sides on this issue but I think it's a
> good thing that Sadam has been stopped. It does
> seem that the public was deceived but that can no
> longer be changed. Looking at this matter from a
> global perspective rather than simply an american
> one, changes the situation a lot. whatever.
>
> unfairfax adaptivetime com


Damn, you can't change a government without bloodshed? Read the constitution, then compare to our current state of affairs. Well, yeah, there's been bloodshed, but none of it was directly tied to the changes our government has taken. I mean, it's all been mostly outside our borders, to affect the changes, but generally we've seen a gradual, "peaceful" coup over the years.

Greedy, corrupt people exist. Some make it into high levels of office. Some are children of former CIA chiefs, have dealt with the corrupt governments of the arab world, and are grandchildren of one of the biggest supporters of the Nazi party and huge proponents of eugenics. Others seem "liberal" and get blowjobs in the oval office, but are deeply involved in the drug trade (google "mena" or "inislaw" or "Ron Brown")

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs. Any questions?

And the people that believe they should just close their eyes and "go along to get along" are the reason things are as they are. The german people went along, and look what happened there. So did the japanese. "I can't change anything, so I don't care" is probably as bad as active support.


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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 19, 2005 11:05AM

I agree with this "power corrupts" concept and have heard it many times before but I need to ask this question (and I'm not attempting to piss anyone off):

If power corrupts and if God is all powerful, does that mean that God is currupt?

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: May 19, 2005 01:02PM

Corrupt means "Marked by immorality and perversion", and immorality means acting contrary to established moral principles. God establishes what the moral principles are and therefore cannot logically oppose Himself. So no, God cannot be corrupt.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 20, 2005 12:55AM

Come now, does God really impose His morals upon us? Doesn't that lend itself to the thinking that man is the most important creature? How selfish of man to believe himself so high. What happens if my morals are different from your morals? Am I the one who is wrong or is it you?

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 20, 2005 03:21AM

BushForHimselfOnly,
> "Not sure what planet you're from but folks don't sign up in the military to die. They sign up in hopes of making a better life for themselves or their families or for the educational benefits. Rich folks rarely if ever sign up in the military."

So... the people you know signed up to exploit the military? How honorable. If you sign up for the possiblity of armed conflict, you must be prepared to die to complete the mission assigned. This was exactly my point, people are signing up to exploit the system and get the benifits but are shocked when they have to do what they signed up to do.


> "Globally, no one gave a shit that the iraqis may have been getting killed by their own government."

I'm sure the iraqis didn't mind either. They are part of the planet smart guy.


> "I read lots of newspapers and never once heard of massacres in Iraq until AFTER Bush's invasion."

Publishing that you are killing thousands of people isn't exactly on the top of their list. Oh... and the mass graves we dug up, they were pretend.


> "I believe there's enough doubt involved to say that maybe it didn't really happen and that our government payrolled media reported what they were coaxed to report."

Oh yeah... and the thousands of bodies were just sitting around there before. It was world wide news.




I must be Dumb, or just plain retarde,

> "Damn, you can't change a government without bloodshed? Read the constitution, then compare to our current state of affairs. Well, yeah, there's been bloodshed, but none of it was directly tied to the changes our government has taken. I mean, it's all been mostly outside our borders, to affect the changes, but generally we've seen a gradual, "peaceful" coup over the years."

if you are implying that we shouldn't care about external countries then you are narrowminded. So... if you saw someone setting a dog on fire in the street, would you do anything? No... because it's not your business. Good call.


> "Greedy, corrupt people exist. Some make it into high levels of office."

I agree 100%.


> "'I can't change anything, so I don't care' is probably as bad as active support."

I never said I did or didn't care. And no, it's not as bad as active support. Getting killed for a cause is a personal choice. If you are a small percentage that cares or wants to change it, you will die in vain. That would be foolish.




PaperPusher,
> "My problem with it is that no Iraqi person came to us asking that Saddam be removed."

So... you would rather Sadam torture and kill people? I do not care if they asked or not, Sadam is horrible.


>"He lies, buys off the media, kills thousands of innocent people..."

Please list events in which he has bought off the media. Innocent people? If you are talking about the insergents, those innocent people torture and kill trying to take over Iraq. If you are talking about peaceful Iraqis, the insergents are killing them. Oh... and leaving them alone would leave Sadam to be kind to them... with torture and murder.


> "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Honestly now, that statement was meant for humans. Please, give me a single reason God would be corrupt. God can do anything, so what need is there for corruption and exploitation. Besides, you are thinking on the basis that the statement is infalible when it was in fact made up by a human.



"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 20, 2005 07:29AM

Gravis,

With all your biased ranting, you summed up your whole opinion in your last comment, "you are thinking on the basis that the statement is infalible when it was in fact made up by a human". Obviously you believe everything you read and hear. Are you so blinded by what you believe to be right that you can't accept the possibility that bush is wrong?

The innocent people I'm speaking of are those being killed every day by both sides of bush's war. The innocent women, the infant children, the businessmen who just want the whole thing to end? Oh yeah, you can call them insergents if you wish since those "not with us are against us" (to borrow a phrase from your president). Just like you, he insinuates that there are simply 2 sides to the situation - his and not-his. I suppose you are in favor of the recent patriot act changes written solely to circumvent the judicial system, all in the name of national security. How long will the mindless people of this country allow this presidential regime to continue using fear for control? Do you actually believe bush is a religious man as he pretends? Hell no ... he uses the name of God in an attempt to control and exploit those who actually believe - ever hear of the phrase "the fear of God"? If he was a godly man, would he continue this massacre of the world's population?

Consider this if you can open your mind just a crack, if this country were being invaded, what would you do? Would you just allow the invader to destroy everything around you? Or, would you pick up anything you could find and fight back? If you were to fight back at all, wouldn't you be considered an "insergent" by the invader? Geez man, can you take your head out of the sand for a minute and smell the roses (or in this case, smell the smouldering flesh)?

As for my God question, you answered it nicely. Even if God is corrupt, fallible, or whatever ... I'm in no position to question it. I'm one heartbeat away from meeting Him at any given second so while I don't mind pissing off everyone on this board, I don't want to piss off the Big Cahunta!

PS, I started typing here because I was bored. Now I feel like I'm on a mission.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: May 20, 2005 07:37AM

PaperPusher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Come now, does God really impose His morals upon
> us? Doesn't that lend itself to the thinking that
> man is the most important creature? How selfish
> of man to believe himself so high. What happens
> if my morals are different from your morals? Am I
> the one who is wrong or is it you?

Your morals may be different than mine and that is fine, but your morals and my morals aren't the baseline. As I said in my previous message, God establishes what the moral principles are, so His are the ones to compare to, not your or mine. Of course God "imposed" moral codes on man... what is the Bible for if not to give guidance in this area?


> Doesn't that lend itself to the thinking that man
> is the most important creature?

Nothing to lend... man is the most important creation of God because it is the only creation God made in His image. It isn't a matter of man being selfish... it is a basic Judeo-Christian belief.


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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 20, 2005 07:47AM

pgens, what if the Judeo-Christian practice of religion is not the "right" religion? What if the Muslem faith is God's preference for man? What if all of man's structured religions are wrong and God just wants people to talk directly with Him instead of focusing on the Bible or any other book of religion? Have you ever tried to talk to someone who was reading a book, watching TV or otherwise preoccupied? It isn't highly successful, is it?

Again, I'm not knocking any religion. I'm just attempting to learn by typing my thoughts. Consider this, next time you come upon a difficult time in your life, instead of consulting the bible as the authority, talk directly with God and see how that comes out.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: pgens ()
Date: May 20, 2005 08:44AM

> Consider this, next time you come upon a difficult time in your
> life, instead of consulting the bible as the authority, talk
> directly with God and see how that comes out.

That is the default behavior for people of most faiths, in my experience. Lawyers consult the lawbooks for guidance on how to bring their case to the judge, and I agree that religion should be the same way... here are the base rules and go direct to the authority for whatever isn't clear or if there is a contradiction.


> What if all of man's structured religions are wrong and God
> just wants people to talk directly with Him instead of focusing
> on the Bible or any other book of religion?

The Bible is one of several records of God's teachings. If you want to learn about any historical figure, you grab a biography or snag their page on Wikipedia. So it is with whatever "holy book" one's faith happens to use. The Christian would answer the "what if the structured religions are wrong" question with "if Jesus didn't desire a human Church with its human faults, he wouldn't have created the Church," so be Christian is to at least accept that Jesus intended structure even if that person doesn't happen to participate or disagrees with the structure. Other faiths will have their own reasons and traditions regarding holy books and how they organize.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: kklare ()
Date: May 20, 2005 11:30AM

> ... what is the Bible for if not to give guidance in this area?

The Bible is for control.

The Bible is proof that people will believe the most absurd bullshit you tell them. Tell them, preach to them, print it in a book. When science begins to disprove what that book says, carelessly explain that only some of it is to be taken literally.

Sorry, I shouldn't be knocking the most popular fiction book in history.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: The Economist ()
Date: May 21, 2005 12:53AM

roffle this stuff is funny I'll post more later ..........but to give u a heading...john kerry even said that Sadaam Hussein was a ruthless dictator who needed to be removed before being able to deploy his WMD.

PS: Most of u guys are dummies w/o basic educatoin on economics....Plan to get owned on that one as well

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: ben ()
Date: May 21, 2005 01:25AM

The Economist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> PS: Most of u guys are dummies w/o basic educatoin
> on economics....Plan to get owned on that one as
> well

And some of us are just dummies without basic education at all.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: The Economist ()
Date: May 21, 2005 04:39PM

Yeah actually most bush bashers are ignorant and do not have any kind of understanding on how the economy itself functions. Government Spending = Good, Tax Cuts = Good. Trade Deficits = Not bad. Budget Deficits = Not bad in the short run.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 21, 2005 07:35PM

so the pro bush bunch can be pigeon-holed as war mongering lying hypocrits?

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: The Ec ()
Date: May 21, 2005 07:46PM

Lying? How do you figure? Even John Kerry said that Sadaam needed removed........

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: kklare ()
Date: May 21, 2005 08:46PM

"Even John Kerry said that Sadaam needed removed........"

Post the exact quote that Kerry said. Politicians will say a lot to buy votes and to appease their party. Then you have the propogandists that take what they say and do and put it completely out of context or omit additional information that puts it in correct context. Happens to your homeboy Bush all the time.

Anybody want to throw a guess as to how old "The Economist" is? I'll start with 15 even though he sounds more like an angry 12 year old.

"Government Spending = Good, Tax Cuts = Good. Trade Deficits = Not bad. Budget Deficits = Not bad in the short run"

Your opinion, or was that the first chapter of "Conservative Economics for Dummies"?

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: May 21, 2005 08:52PM

"Government Spending = Good, Tax Cuts = Good. Trade Deficits = Not bad. Budget Deficits = Not bad in the short run"

Each of those should be followed by "unless ..."

Government Spending = Good unless wasted on fighting a war no one wanted (except bush),
Tax Cuts = Good unless it bankrupts the country.
Trade Deficits = Not bad unless the domestic economy is hurting.
Budget Deficits = Not bad in the short run unless the path to the deficit was a waste

Can't make simple statements that cover volumes of economics books.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: kklare ()
Date: May 21, 2005 08:57PM

paperpusher, I hope you're not confusing the child. it's a good start though

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PhilLesh ()
Date: May 21, 2005 11:05PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> I must be Dumb, or just plain retarde,
>>
>> "Damn, you can't change a government without
>> bloodshed? Read the constitution, then compare to
>> our current state of affairs. Well, yeah, there's
>> been bloodshed, but none of it was directly tied
>> to the changes our government has taken. I mean,
>> it's all been mostly outside our borders, to
>> affect the changes, but generally we've seen a
>> gradual, "peaceful" coup over the years."
>>
> if you are implying that we shouldn't care about
> external countries then you are narrowminded.
> So... if you saw someone setting a dog on fire in
> the street, would you do anything? No... because
> it's not your business. Good call.

I think you might have been responding to another portion of what I had written, because what I'm saying in the quoted portion above is that to argue that governments can only be changed by bloodshed is wrong. Our government HAS changed, with very little bloodshed. (waco, ruby ridge, maybe, depending on your pov, but I don't think much change came from that anyway, other than to make the extreme right-wing look paranoid and foolish).

To answer your question about someone lighting a dog on fire -- I'd kick the fucker's ass. But that's a lot different than knowing that people are getting killed all over the world, every day, and having a solution to that problem. Using force to stop violence seems somewhat oxymoronic. Sure, often it's the only answer. But not always is it the only answer.






>
> > "Greedy, corrupt people exist. Some make it
> into high levels of office."
>
> I agree 100%.
>
> > "'I can't change anything, so I don't care'
> is probably as bad as active support."
>
> I never said I did or didn't care. And no, it's
> not as bad as active support. Getting killed for
> a cause is a personal choice. If you are a small
> percentage that cares or wants to change it, you
> will die in vain. That would be foolish.
>

I still say not caring is as bad, neigh, WORSE than actively supporting something. Actually, you sort of indicate the same thing, asking if I would stop someone from lighting a dog on fire. If you can help to bring about change for the good, and don't, isn't that bad? Besides, I mean that more in the "collective" sense, as far as the affect. If each person that didn't care would instead care, collectively, things would be different. And that's how not caring is bad.




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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: The Economist ()
Date: May 22, 2005 01:21AM

First and foremost, I would not consider the President my "boy", so end the "nigga talk" now. He's doing a decent job, better than Kerry would have done.

Here's a different quote
"It was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the president made the decision, I supported him" from http://slate.msn.com/id/2107514/, where Kerry admits that he supported him (of course after being asked about the comment I was refering to).
Here's just another thing I randomly dug up (I can post 1000's , I just don't need to)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/29/politics/main646435.shtml


And John Maynard Keynes described all of those in his book "The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money", that was written during the Great Depression is. He hit the nail right on the head when it came to AD/AS shifters, etc. They have been proven over time.

With that being said, George Bush has definitely done what's best for our economy. Imagine if CONGRESS hadn't declared war, or if George Bush had vetoed it..Our economy would be much worse than it is today.

Plus, how does the president really control how much money you and I, your family and my friends spend? Spend>Save anyways..since people aren't spending as much, our economy suffers (albeit little).

Owned. Next Please

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: PhilLesh ()
Date: May 22, 2005 02:24AM

The Economist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First and foremost, I would not consider the
> President my "boy", so end the "nigga talk" now.
> He's doing a decent job, better than Kerry would
> have done.
>
> Here's a different quote
> "It was the right decision to disarm Saddam
> Hussein, and when the president made the decision,
> I supported him" from , where Kerry admits that
> he supported him (of course after being asked
> about the comment I was refering to).
> Here's just another thing I randomly dug up (I can
> post 1000's , I just don't need to)
>
>
>
>
> And John Maynard Keynes described all of those in
> his book "The General Theory of Employment,
> Interest and Money", that was written during the
> Great Depression is. He hit the nail right on the
> head when it came to AD/AS shifters, etc. They
> have been proven over time.
>
> With that being said, George Bush has definitely
> done what's best for our economy. Imagine if
> CONGRESS hadn't declared war, or if George Bush
> had vetoed it..Our economy would be much worse
> than it is today.
>
> Plus, how does the president really control how
> much money you and I, your family and my friends
> spend? Spend>Save anyways..since people aren't
> spending as much, our economy suffers (albeit
> little).
>
> Owned. Next Please


I don't remember the actual figures, but I know that there is a hard figure about how many people will face unemployment when an economic figure is lowered, and how many will have jobs when the same figure is raised. But I know that the people that manage the economy understand this, and they manipulate this figure for other purposes, knowing this impact.

I worked for several years at a "personal finance publisher" and I can still say that I don't understand the economy. I understand it better than my parents. I understand it better than most of my friends. I know without a doubt that I understand it better than the average person. But the fact is, it's only fully understood by a select few within our government. And they understand it inside and out. They know what they are doing, and they do it only to serve their own interests. That's all I can say. Like i said, it's complex. I can't tell you how badly corrupted they are, but it's obvious that they're using it to their best advantage.

BTW, Keynesian economics has been proven as bad and unworkable as has machiavelli's ideas on governance and social manipulation. But that doesn't mean that people of influence are not still trying to implement those ideas. :)




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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Econ ()
Date: May 22, 2005 07:14PM

you are dead wrong about the government and control of the economy.

And how has Keynesian economics been proven bad? Hahaha, most of the stuff he wrote about was dead on point..The only thing he couldn't explain was the time period during the 1970's oil crisis where unemployment rose while inflation rose (there is a short run trade off between the two, Phillips curve). This time period was called stagflation I believe, and if my calculations are correct, it occurred over 30 years after Keynes's death.

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: May 23, 2005 05:55AM

PhilLesh,

> "...to argue that governments can only be changed by bloodshed is wrong..."

You have misinterpreted my words. Perhaps partially my fault. What I mean is like a revolution, overthrow, a brand-spankin-new government. Yeah... I can only think of one incident where they didnt kill anyone... but that was because absolutely everyone including the army hated that king. To overthrow and re-establish a government is impossible without people killing other people. Remember the "civil" war? So very very bloody and violent.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: Crazy little thing was attached to a recent bill
Posted by: boredom ()
Date: November 24, 2008 10:10PM

Hey guys, what's goin on in this topik?

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