I'm planning on selling a condo in Reston in the Spring. Appliances are from the early 90s but work fine. Should I bother upgrading? Does it make that much difference for curb appeal?

Don't

I've heard people prefer to buy their own appliances.

I wouldn't unless they appliances have a really outdated look. I would worry more about your counter tops and flooring.




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idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2015 07:29PM by WingNut.

Yes, I'm sure there will be several people who turn it down because of old appliances lol.

"Ah, you know, the place is great and all but those old ass appliances are a deal breaker for me"


Not. Good luck with your selling.

You can always bumpg the price and add in a concession so they can buy one of their own choice.

People in general HATE to go shopping for appliances. And it's not like some religion where only ONE brand would ever be acceptable. New appliances are a wow-factor that will be a big help in getting people interested in your place. More and more interest translates into higher and higher offers. Twenty-year old appliances on the other hand will raise questions in the minds of potential buyers as to how well you've taken care of other maintenance matters over the years. That's not good. I would replace them, and do it soon, so that they are still under warranty but not "just out of the carton" next Spring.

Yes, buy stainless appliances appropriate for the price point of the home. Write them off on taxes, speak with your accountant.

the new appliances will really make a solid first impression and now don't mess it up by thinking your Centreville home is in McLean and price it correctly.

^^^ Real estate agents tell you to sink all kinds of money into your house to get a better price. In the end, the only price that matters is what the person assessing your property comes up with, because that is all the bank will finance. They generally could care less about the age of the appliances. So, unless somebody is paying cash and skipping a professional appraisal, it is all for nothing. It might help you sell your property a little faster because of the wow factor, which could save you some money, but the price probably won't change much. You get some minor credits for major cosmetic updating. The biggest factors are square footage and lot size, which have nothing to do with the refrigerator and stove.

When will this obsession w/stainless steal end?

Or is this just fueled by HGTV. Everything always has to be stainless steal.

Not that I'll succumb to trends, but will there be a new trend on the horizon?

iLester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can always bumpg the price and add in a
> concession so they can buy one of their own
> choice.

+1

You can always throw some "subsidy" for appliances, HVAC , flooring etc..

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idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2015 01:43PM by WingNut.

Kally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When will this obsession w/stainless steal end?
>
> Or is this just fueled by HGTV. Everything always
> has to be stainless steal.
>
> Not that I'll succumb to trends, but will there be
> a new trend on the horizon?


My fridge matches my cabinets

real estate agents/crooks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^^^ Real estate agents tell you to sink all kinds
> of money into your house to get a better price. In
> the end, the only price that matters is what the
> person assessing your property comes up with,
> because that is all the bank will finance. They
> generally could care less about the age of the
> appliances. So, unless somebody is paying cash and
> skipping a professional appraisal, it is all for
> nothing. It might help you sell your property a
> little faster because of the wow factor, which
> could save you some money, but the price probably
> won't change much. You get some minor credits for
> major cosmetic updating. The biggest factors are
> square footage and lot size, which have nothing to
> do with the refrigerator and stove.


That may be true, but the reality is buyers, especially younger buyers, these days want turn-key and stainless and granite. You are correct that it should not matter, but it does. Just talk with some. I'd suggest to OP to buy the least expensive stainless appliances. That way you're meeting the need and you can list as "with new appliances". Otherwise they'll try to get you to knock off more in the price of the place than what it would cost to put in cheap stainless appliances.

Also, consider replacing the front panel of your dishwasher with stainless. They're generally around $100 and it's about 15 minute job for anyone who can use a screw driver. You'll have the look of stainless for a fraction of the cost.

Stainless is what they want Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> real estate agents/crooks Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ^^^ Real estate agents tell you to sink all
> kinds
> > of money into your house to get a better price.
> In
> > the end, the only price that matters is what
> the
> > person assessing your property comes up with,
> > because that is all the bank will finance. They
> > generally could care less about the age of the
> > appliances. So, unless somebody is paying cash
> and
> > skipping a professional appraisal, it is all
> for
> > nothing. It might help you sell your property a
> > little faster because of the wow factor, which
> > could save you some money, but the price
> probably
> > won't change much. You get some minor credits
> for
> > major cosmetic updating. The biggest factors
> are
> > square footage and lot size, which have nothing
> to
> > do with the refrigerator and stove.
>
>
> That may be true, but the reality is buyers,
> especially younger buyers, these days want
> turn-key and stainless and granite. You are
> correct that it should not matter, but it does.
> Just talk with some. I'd suggest to OP to buy the
> least expensive stainless appliances. That way
> you're meeting the need and you can list as "with
> new appliances". Otherwise they'll try to get you
> to knock off more in the price of the place than
> what it would cost to put in cheap stainless
> appliances.
>
> Also, consider replacing the front panel of your
> dishwasher with stainless. They're generally
> around $100 and it's about 15 minute job for
> anyone who can use a screw driver. You'll have the
> look of stainless for a fraction of the cost.


To add to that: you generally cannot find the replacement panel in the big box stores or appliance stores, however there are several online suppliers that make ordering easy. Just have your brand and model number handy.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> iLester Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You can always bumpg the price and add in a
> > concession so they can buy one of their own
> > choice.
>
> +1
>
> You can always throw some "subsidy" for
> appliances, HVAC , flooring etc..
>
> Meaningless, but it will appeal to some.

Some need a seller concession to feel they've negotiated as much as they can for the house.

You can always throw in a 1-year homeowners warranty.

`

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 08:28AM by WingNut.

reeltor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
That would be "realtor", you know.

> Yes, buy stainless appliances appropriate for the
> price point of the home. Write them off on taxes,
> speak with your accountant.

Your accountant will tell you that under all but rare circumstances, this is NOT permissible. You might be eligible for a small credit if you buy selected Energy Star appliances, but the best you could hope for even in those rare cases would be an addition to your basis in the home. This could save capital gains taxes, but likely not until the last time you sell a home, and perhaps not even then.

> the new appliances will really make a solid first
> impression and now don't mess it up by thinking
> your Centreville home is in McLean and price it
> correctly.

In all cases, correct pricing is determined between a willing buyer and a willing seller. As a seller, you are interested in selling to only one person -- the most motivated buyer in the market. Selling to anyone else costs you money. Pricing that attracts crowds and results in quick sales are good from the point of view of a realtor. But not necessarily from the point of view of a seller.

Step back here... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reeltor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> Your accountant will tell you that under all but
> rare circumstances, this is NOT permissible. You
> might be eligible for a small credit if you buy
> selected Energy Star appliances, but the best you
> could hope for even in those rare cases would be
> an addition to your basis in the home. This could
> save capital gains taxes, but likely not until the
> last time you sell a home, and perhaps not even
> then.
>

+1

You don't get jack shit for new appliances.

real estate agents/crooks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The biggest factors are square footage and lot size, which
> have nothing to do with the refrigerator and stove.

Wrong level. These are factors in determining the particular range of homes on the market to look at. They are already long ago in the rear-view mirror when it comes time to be putting down an offer. People use the fridge and stove every day. In the final analysis, they matter.

Stainless is what they want Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, consider replacing the front panel of your
> dishwasher with stainless. They're generally
> around $100 and it's about 15 minute job for
> anyone who can use a screw driver. You'll have the
> look of stainless for a fraction of the cost.

You could be subject to a lawsuit for doing this. If you were a fly-by-night shyster to begin with, you would probably not care. Otherwise, you might.

Look at your appraisal. Everything else is emotional. All the bank cares about is the appraisal, that is all they will fund, so unless you are doing a cash sale, you are a prisoner of the bank and the appraisal.

Everybody should have a copy of their appraisal and if you don't, get it right now.

Cosmetics doesn't have a lot to do with the final price for the appraisal. You might get some nice offers, but when the appraisal bounces, the arguments start, VA loan or not.

It just means you need to bring a little more cash to the table.

The most important room in a home is the kitchen - at least for women, who generally make the final decision when purchasing a home. Most of the feedback on this forum has been and will be from men - who tend to be much more utilitarian ('hey, it still works'). It will cost you three to five thousand dollars to replace your appliances (stainless steel only!). It is well worth the cost.

A buyer credit won't work. The first impression of your condo will probably be from your MRIS pictures. People will write off your place if they see 20 year old appliances; they won't even get to the description. Moreover, buyers - especially young buyers - expect a place to be in move-in condition. I wouldn't think twice about replacing the appliances if I was in your place.

By the way, refrigerators (also washer/dryers) have changed significantly in the last twenty years. They are much bigger - especially deeper. Make sure that the appliances that you choose will fit in your space. Hard lesson - I remodeled a kitchen in a house that I own and found out that there were no refrigerators on the market that would fit depth wise in the space; had to have the wall reconfigured to accommodate a newer fridge ($$$).

You are selling an older condo. It will likely be purchased by a first time buyer, a divorcee or a retiree.

Given your product and market, I wouldn't put any new capital improvements in at all. Trust me. You will not see that money again. Just keep the place clean and, when someone calls to look at the place, put out a plate of fresh baked chocolate chip cookies (for the aroma and for giving the prospective buyer a nice, warm memory of your condo).

big down payment guy^ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It just means you need to bring a little more cash
> to the table.

If they "don't have enough cash" , then the deal is off because they can't support the contract. You would be surprised. Just be careful about putting too much into your property based on what your real estate agent tells you is necessary.

learned the hard way Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at your appraisal. Everything else is
> emotional. All the bank cares about is the
> appraisal, that is all they will fund, so unless
> you are doing a cash sale, you are a prisoner of
> the bank and the appraisal.

Many buyers are pre-approved for credit before an appraisal is ever done. Appraisals themselves are notoriously squishy, and what's valid to one lender may not be to another.

> Everybody should have a copy of their appraisal
> and if you don't, get it right now. Cosmetics
> doesn't have a lot to do with the final price
> for the appraisal. You might get some nice
> offers, but when the appraisal bounces, the
> arguments start, VA loan or not.

Appraisers are required to give you a copy. They aren't required to correct any mistakes that they make. When banks are cranky and not much in the mood to lend, they find excuses to say no. Having an appraiser go out and come back with a bad number is only one of them. Things were like this for years, but the cloud has begun to lift.

Cell Block 4 Inmate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are selling an older condo. It will likely be
> purchased by a first time buyer, a divorcee or a
> retiree.

All sorts of individuals are in every market. Try not to exclude any of them. You never know which will be "the one".

> Given your product and market, I wouldn't put any
> new capital improvements in at all. Trust me.
> You will not see that money again.

Making your product seem ordinary and middle of the pack is not a good way to maximize your return.

> Just keep the place clean and, when someone calls to look
> at the place, put out a plate of fresh baked chocolate chip
> cookies (for the aroma and for giving the prospective buyer
> a nice, warm memory of your condo).

Oldest trick in the book. It's a cliché that nobody falls for. It merely suggests that you are cheap and sleazy and trying to sell a pig in a poke. Even if you were planning to make chocolate chip cookies, wait until after the potential buyer is gone. If the kitchen reeks, boil some diluted fruit juice before anyone arrives and spray some decent air freshener around.

Have your agent run a sales report of homes in your neighborhood over the last 6-12 months...

Now, there's a lot of vagaries and variances here. No two homes are alike. But, ask yourself honestly...where do you feel your home falls in this report? If you're comfortable with where it falls and you're ready...put it on the market. If you're not, then perhaps the appliances should be replaced.

I would absolutely agree with the others above to buy the least expensive stainless models you can (unless of course, you're selling a luxury home).

But, before you spend the money on the appliances...Total up that cost of new appliances and ask yourself (NOT your agent), could that money be used elsewhere on my property/structure and get me a higher return on the closing price?

Also, you can always put it on the market as is, without any major improvements/upgrades and see where that takes you. If you have time to work the market like that, of course...

In closing, regardless of what decision you make I encourage you to employ the following pricing strategy...

1) Decide what the MINIMUM price you would accept to sell your home for.
2) Add 8% to that number...this is your listing price.
3) Instruct your agent to not even bother bringing you offers below 8% under the listing price.

Your best buyers are not dumb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cell Block 4 Inmate Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You are selling an older condo. It will likely
> be
> > purchased by a first time buyer, a divorcee or
> a
> > retiree.
>
> All sorts of individuals are in every market. Try
> not to exclude any of them. You never know which
> will be "the one".
>
> > Given your product and market, I wouldn't put
> any
> > new capital improvements in at all. Trust me.
> > You will not see that money again.
>
> Making your product seem ordinary and middle of
> the pack is not a good way to maximize your
> return.
>
> > Just keep the place clean and, when someone
> calls to look
> > at the place, put out a plate of fresh baked
> chocolate chip
> > cookies (for the aroma and for giving the
> prospective buyer
> > a nice, warm memory of your condo).
>
> Oldest trick in the book. It's a cliché that
> nobody falls for. It merely suggests that you are
> cheap and sleazy and trying to sell a pig in a
> poke. Even if you were planning to make chocolate
> chip cookies, wait until after the potential buyer
> is gone. If the kitchen reeks, boil some diluted
> fruit juice before anyone arrives and spray some
> decent air freshener around.


Remember. We are dealing with condo buyers here. These are not "sophisticated" buyers. The chocolate chip cookie trick has worked in this segment for years and also works in TH and SFH segments in the exurbs and rural areas. You will not find a Rothschild among this group unless you are talking about an expensive condo on the Georgetown waterfront or on Capitol Hill among the power elite.

Just bake fucking cookies and close the deal.

> In closing, regardless of what decision you make I
> encourage you to employ the following pricing
> strategy...
>
> 1) Decide what the MINIMUM price you would accept
> to sell your home for.
> 2) Add 8% to that number...this is your listing
> price.
> 3) Instruct your agent to not even bother bringing
> you offers below 8% under the listing price.

Real estate agents all over Fairfax are laughing (and no, I'm not an agent).

Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. The market will tell you what your home is worth. The market doesn't give a crap how much you want for the place. If you overprice the home, agents will be reluctant to show it, it won't sell, and the listing will get stale. By the time you've scaled down your expectations, you've missed the chance to make a good first impression and you run the risk of looking desperate.

Any decent listing agent will check comparables in your location and will recommend a reasonable price. It's up to you whether to take their recommendations or not. But if you don't, then don't bitch when the place doesn't sell.

On the other hand... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stainless is what they want Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Also, consider replacing the front panel of
> your
> > dishwasher with stainless. They're generally
> > around $100 and it's about 15 minute job for
> > anyone who can use a screw driver. You'll have
> the
> > look of stainless for a fraction of the cost.
>
> You could be subject to a lawsuit for doing this.
> If you were a fly-by-night shyster to begin with,
> you would probably not care. Otherwise, you
> might.

What would be the basis of a lawsuit here? You're just making shit up.

I would ask your realtor. But, in general, early 90's appliances are OLD and certainly not a selling point for the condo in my view.

Quick answer: Buy cheap new appliances. You can get a 4-piece stainless steel set for a couple thousand dollars. Do it.

Long answer: Women make the purchasing decision in 90% of the cases. And women want nice kitchens and bathrooms. Leaving 20-year-old appliances in the kitchen will be a definite turn-off. (Some of the worst ones are first-time buyers who expect stainless steel appliances and will reject--out of hand--a kitchen without them. Seriously.)

As pointed out above, people don't like shopping for appliances. And more broadly, when they buy a place (what's the condo cost--$150,000? $200,000?), they want it to be in nice, move-in condition. They don't want a handyman special.

Especially in a condo development, it's easy for a Realtor to pull comps of identical or similar units and tell you within a few thousand dollars what the place will go for. But there will likely be some variation based on the condition of the units. And for condos in the $200,000 price range, for instance, you might see a $15,000 variation between old, grungy ones and nicely fixed up ones. Put a couple thousand into appliances, and a few thousand more into paint, etc., and you might raise the amount you receive by $12,000-$15,000. Really.

By the way, one person suggested building up from the minimum price you'd accept. That's just plain stupid. The buyers don't care what your minimum price is. What they care about is getting a decent-to-good deal, and that's based on what other units have sold for. On that $200,000 condo, for instance, suppose you're willing to take $150,000. So you price it at $162,000, and are negotiated down to $159,000. You've just left $41,000 on the table. On the flip side, maybe you want that full $200,000, so you price the condo at $216,000. Now you're substantially overpriced and you get no offers. If you want to play games like that, look at the comps. Price yourself right in the middle. Or (in the Northern Virginia market) price yourself about 3% above the middle. (Properties sell for roughly 97% of the listing price.) But what you WANT or what your MINIMUM is has NOTHING to do with pricing.

As for the chocolate chip cookie trick, yes it's old. But it's still around because it works. And here's another one to watch out for: Drops of vanilla extract put on light bulbs. As the bulbs burn, they give off a nice vanilla scent. As a seller, you have to work the numbers. Know what properties are selling for. Do the improvements that make sense financially. (And that includes selling the property quickly so you can get on to your next property.)

As for the discussion about the appraisal, the appraisal won't be done until the would-be buyer applies for a mortgage. But, especially in a condo development, it's easy to figure out what the unit will appraise for. Just keep your contract price in that range, and you'll be fine.

Bottom line: Putting the property on the market with some obvious drawbacks (and 20-year-old appliances qualify) is going to reduce the price you receive AND it will take you longer to sell the property. Replace them.

Are You Kidding Me?!? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > In closing, regardless of what decision you make
> I
> > encourage you to employ the following pricing
> > strategy...
> >
> > 1) Decide what the MINIMUM price you would
> accept
> > to sell your home for.
> > 2) Add 8% to that number...this is your listing
> > price.
> > 3) Instruct your agent to not even bother
> bringing
> > you offers below 8% under the listing price.
>
> Real estate agents all over Fairfax are laughing
> (and no, I'm not an agent).
>
> Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. The
> market will tell you what your home is worth. The
> market doesn't give a crap how much you want for
> the place. If you overprice the home, agents will
> be reluctant to show it, it won't sell, and the
> listing will get stale. By the time you've scaled
> down your expectations, you've missed the chance
> to make a good first impression and you run the
> risk of looking desperate.
>
> Any decent listing agent will check comparables in
> your location and will recommend a reasonable
> price. It's up to you whether to take their
> recommendations or not. But if you don't, then
> don't bitch when the place doesn't sell.

Yes this was a ridiculous suggestion to price a home. When you sell a property, what you want and what you eventually get are usually two very different things. It takes some people a long time to figure that out.

I think it is worth the money to hire an appraiser, NOT a real estate agent, to come through and evaluate your property. Then, if the bank's appraisal is messed up, you have some solid research to fall back on.

Tapawingo Rd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What would be the basis of a lawsuit here? You're
> just making shit up.

Fraud and misrepresentation. Not likely over a simple dishwasher masqueraade, but money-grubbing used-car-salesman shytsers and shyster-wannabes should keep in mind that cosmetics used to conceal existing defects or to deceive buyers as to the actual state and condition of the property are torts that are apt to land you in court. Your realtor as well, if you had one.

Ten Toes in the Grave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But what you WANT or what your MINIMUM is has
> NOTHING to do with pricing.

My God, it has EVERYTHING to do with the pricing. A sale can only be concluded on a property when the most that a buyer is wiling to pay is greater than the least that a seller is willing to accept. Sales are concluded one-on-one and the needs and limits of EACH of the two parties are what is paramount.

Other buyers, sellers, and properties are not relevant except that they mean the buyer has alternatives. Likely not so many, however. Along with simple personal tastes, needs such as proximity to work, schools, and shopping just rule a lot of places out. A buyer (more likely his realtor) is actually talking to you (more likely your realtor) because you are among the top three or four choices out of all the hundreds of houses out there. It is only the other two or three that you actually have to beat out.

> As for the chocolate chip cookie trick, yes it's
> old. But it's still around because it works.

It doesn't work. It is more likely to have a negative effect. Smarty-ass stuff tends to bite a different ass from the one intended.

> And here's another one to watch out for: Drops of
> vanilla extract put on light bulbs.

Why put it on light bulbs? Why not put it behind your ear? Did you know that this little trick attracts chicks like a magnet? Baby lotion works great too! Use that in addition to cologne and girls will simply be falling all over you!

Here's some better advice. To freshen a place up, open the windows, boil some diluted fruit juice, and use a decent air freshener. Thinking that people will fall for grade school tricks and ruses is not going to help a seller out any.

> As a seller, you have to work the numbers. Know what
> properties are selling for. Do the improvements that
> make sense financially. (And that includes selling
> the property quickly so you can get on to your next
> property.)

That's an agent talking. Sell one place, collect the commission, move on to the next place. A seller on the other hand has no long-term interest in speed if he has to leave thousands of dollars on the table to accomplish it. A seller does NOT want to sell to the mid-point of some generalized market. He wants to sell to that one particular person who is willing to pay the most for his property. It may take some time for that person to find your place and get by to see it. It makes sense to invest some time in waiting for him to show up. That means that your asking price needs to be high enough to keep others from jumping in first. You can always come down in price later if you must.

> As for the discussion about the appraisal, the
> appraisal won't be done until the would-be buyer
> applies for a mortgage.

Appraisals are done by appraisers when ordered. A lender will order one. You as a seller can order one as well if one hasn't been done recently. They typically cost a few hundred dollars.

> But, especially in a condo development, it's easy to
> figure out what the unit will appraise for. Just
> keep your contract price in that range, and you'll
> be fine.

That part is true. If what you are selling is just one out of hundreds of identical tiny boxes, there won't be much room for differentiation. Like a farmer, you'll have to sell your crop for whatever the going price is.

> Bottom line: Putting the property on the market
> with some obvious drawbacks (and 20-year-old
> appliances qualify) is going to reduce the price
> you receive AND it will take you longer to sell
> the property. Replace them.

Houses come with a sinking fund for maintenance. If all of the durable items that convey are in tip-top shape, the sinking fund will be empty. If they are in sad shape, all the money that a seller should have put into maintenance over the years will be sitting in the sinking fund instead. And whether he tells you as much or not, a buyer will demand that your price be lowered to cover that arrearage.

KISS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is worth the money to hire an
> appraiser, NOT a real estate agent, to come
> through and evaluate your property. Then, if the
> bank's appraisal is messed up, you have some solid
> research to fall back on.

A lender will use his own appraisal. He won't give a hoot what yours says or what complaints you think you have over his. You won't get the time of day for any of those. Your own appraisal is for your own information and that's all.

On the other hand... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's an agent talking. Sell one place, collect
> the commission, move on to the next place. A
> seller on the other hand has no long-term interest
> in speed if he has to leave thousands of dollars
> on the table to accomplish it.

That depends on the seller's motivation. Most people just want to sell and move on with their lives. Or they have a compelling reason to sell quickly (bought another property, kids starting school in the Fall,...). Beyond that, there are costs incurred each month that you stay in the property, not the least of which is the mortgage. And the process of selling really wears on you over time (keeping the place sparkling, vacating for potential buyers,...).

> A seller does NOT
> want to sell to the mid-point of some generalized
> market. He wants to sell to that one particular
> person who is willing to pay the most for his
> property. It may take some time for that person
> to find your place and get by to see it. It makes
> sense to invest some time in waiting for him to
> show up.

Good luck waiting for 'that one particular person' who is so blown away by your place that they're willing to pay top dollar. That's magical thinking. Your home is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

> That means that your asking price needs
> to be high enough to keep others from jumping in
> first.

You want to actively discourage potential buyers? That is ridiculous. A seller should entertain all offers. If those offers are all in the same ballpark, then that's what your home is worth.

> You can always come down in price later if
> you must.

Yes, and you can miss the market and look desperate doing so. Agents know which homes are overpriced and they don't want to show them.

Unicorns don't exist. Plenty of homes remain unsold because sellers can't face that reality.

The reality is that you'll find less sophisticated buyers of condos that are 20+ years old. First timers, divorcees and retirees. The segment isn't being sold by Sotheby's.

Which would you rather have?

The scent of freshly baked chocolate chip cookies or a boiled gallon of Welch's pomegranate?

Get Real... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That depends on the seller's motivation.

Everything depends on something, but most people do not have a gun to their head when selling a home. If you do, I'd suggest paying attention to the person with a finger on the trigger and just not worry about the financial bath you're about to take.

> Beyond that, there are costs incurred each month
> that you stay in the property...

The same costs that will exist no matter where you live.

> And the process of selling really wears on you
> over time (keeping the place sparkling, vacating
> for potential buyers,...).

So you normally just let the place look like a dump? And how grating is the process in comparison to losing many thousands of dollars?

> Good luck waiting for 'that one particular person'
> who is so blown away by your place that they're
> willing to pay top dollar. That's magical thinking.

No, these people exist by definition. One out of ten potential buyers will be ready to offer you more money for your home than the other nine.

> Your home is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Exactly. The key is finding the right someone, not dumping the place off onto the first bargain-seeking flipper who happens by.

> You want to actively discourage potential buyers?

Yes. The cheap-ass ones. There are bigger fish out there, and it pays for me to wait for one to come swimming along.

> That is ridiculous. A seller should entertain all
> offers. If those offers are all in the same
> ballpark, then that's what your home is worth.

Unless your house is a stamped-out little box, all offers will not be the same, and it's a waste of everybody's time to invite offers that you won't accept in any case. Do 90% of the market a favor and cut them loose up front.

> Yes, and you can miss the market and look
> desperate doing so.

All there is to miss at the moment is upside.

> Agents know which homes are overpriced and they
> don't want to show them.

Those are not very good agents then. They should know what it is their clients are looking for, and show them the houses that fit those particulars. The asking price is rarely the sales price. It can pay to talk.

> Unicorns don't exist. Plenty of homes remain
> unsold because sellers can't face that reality.

There is no reason to shoot yourself in the foot. Selling a home is not supposed to be an act of charity.

Toll House Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reality is that you'll find less sophisticated
> buyers of condos that are 20+ years old. First
> timers, divorcees and retirees. The segment isn't
> being sold by Sotheby's.

"Less sophisticated" does not translate into being influenced by the smell of chocolate chip cookies. If it did, new cars would all smell like chocolate chip cookies, not new cars.

> Which would you rather have? The scent of
> freshly baked chocolate chip cookies or a
> boiled gallon of Welch's pomegranate?

I would stick with citrus, as it's good at driving out existing odors without leaving an intrusive new one in its place. You could boil some pine branches as well, but more people are apt to have lemon or lime juice in the fridge.

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get Real... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That depends on the seller's motivation.
>
> Everything depends on something, but most people
> do not have a gun to their head when selling a
> home. If you do, I'd suggest paying attention to
> the person with a finger on the trigger and just
> not worry about the financial bath you're about to
> take.
>
> > Beyond that, there are costs incurred each month
>
> > that you stay in the property...
>
> The same costs that will exist no matter where you
> live.
>
> > And the process of selling really wears on you
> > over time (keeping the place sparkling,
> vacating
> > for potential buyers,...).
>
> So you normally just let the place look like a
> dump? And how grating is the process in
> comparison to losing many thousands of dollars?
>
> > Good luck waiting for 'that one particular
> person'
> > who is so blown away by your place that they're
> > willing to pay top dollar. That's magical
> thinking.
>
> No, these people exist by definition. One out of
> ten potential buyers will be ready to offer you
> more money for your home than the other nine.
>
> > Your home is worth what someone is willing to
> pay for it.
>
> Exactly. The key is finding the right someone, not
> dumping the place off onto the first
> bargain-seeking flipper who happens by.
>
> > You want to actively discourage potential
> buyers?
>
> Yes. The cheap-ass ones. There are bigger fish
> out there, and it pays for me to wait for one to
> come swimming along.
>
> > That is ridiculous. A seller should entertain
> all
> > offers. If those offers are all in the same
> > ballpark, then that's what your home is worth.
>
> Unless your house is a stamped-out little box, all
> offers will not be the same, and it's a waste of
> everybody's time to invite offers that you won't
> accept in any case. Do 90% of the market a favor
> and cut them loose up front.
>
> > Yes, and you can miss the market and look
> > desperate doing so.
>
> All there is to miss at the moment is upside.
>
> > Agents know which homes are overpriced and they
>
> > don't want to show them.
>
> Those are not very good agents then. They should
> know what it is their clients are looking for, and
> show them the houses that fit those particulars.
> The asking price is rarely the sales price. It
> can pay to talk.
>
> > Unicorns don't exist. Plenty of homes remain
> > unsold because sellers can't face that reality.
>
> There is no reason to shoot yourself in the foot.
> Selling a home is not supposed to be an act of
> charity.

I have to ask... Have you ever actually sold a home?

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Toll House Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The reality is that you'll find less
> sophisticated
> > buyers of condos that are 20+ years old. First
> > timers, divorcees and retirees. The segment
> isn't
> > being sold by Sotheby's.
>
> "Less sophisticated" does not translate into being
> influenced by the smell of chocolate chip cookies.
> If it did, new cars would all smell like
> chocolate chip cookies, not new cars.

Lot's of people like new car smell. That's why they sell new car smell air fresheners.

Among most RATIONAL home buyers, it makes more sense to purchase the property with the old appliances and receive a credit to buy new ones than to buy new appliances for the property. However MANY HOME BUYERS ARE NOT RATIONAL, and would rather buy the fantasy over actual quality and value.

It really depends on who your buyer is likely to be.

on the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tapawingo Rd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What would be the basis of a lawsuit here?
> You're
> > just making shit up.
>
> Fraud and misrepresentation. Not likely over a
> simple dishwasher masqueraade, but money-grubbing
> used-car-salesman shytsers and shyster-wannabes
> should keep in mind that cosmetics used to conceal
> existing defects or to deceive buyers as to the
> actual state and condition of the property are
> torts that are apt to land you in court. Your
> realtor as well, if you had one.

So if the front panel got banged up by kids playing and I replaced it with one exactly like the old one that would be fraud too? I don't buy it.

The other shit, yeah maybe, but that's why you always get a home inspection done. Good inspectors can see through any of that cosmetic bullshit.

Get Real... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to ask... Have you ever actually sold a home?

Yes, on my own behalf. I have also worked in a realty firm and partnered in a residential rental group. Profits are virtually always found at the margin. If you play around in the middle of the pool, you never get to the margin.

not so fast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's of people like new car smell. That's why
> they sell new car smell air fresheners.

Yes, that's quite true. But if the power of chocolate chip cookies were as great as has been suggested here, that would NOT be the case.

on the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tapawingo Rd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What would be the basis of a lawsuit here?
> You're
> > just making shit up.
>
> Fraud and misrepresentation. Not likely over a
> simple dishwasher masqueraade, but money-grubbing
> used-car-salesman shytsers and shyster-wannabes
> should keep in mind that cosmetics used to conceal
> existing defects or to deceive buyers as to the
> actual state and condition of the property are
> torts that are apt to land you in court. Your
> realtor as well, if you had one.


The owner makes no representations or warranties as to the condition of the real property or any improvements thereon, and purchasers are advised to exercise whatever due diligence a particular purchaser deems necessary including obtaining a certified home inspection, as defined in § 54.1-500, in accordance with terms and conditions as may be contained in the real estate purchase contract, but in any event, prior to settlement on a parcel of residential real property;

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> not so fast Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lot's of people like new car smell. That's why
> > they sell new car smell air fresheners.
>
> Yes, that's quite true. But if the power of
> chocolate chip cookies were as great as has been
> suggested here, that would NOT be the case.


Can you bake chocolate chip cookies in your car?

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Among most RATIONAL home buyers, it makes more
> sense to purchase the property with the old
> appliances and receive a credit to buy new ones
> than to buy new appliances for the property.
> However MANY HOME BUYERS ARE NOT RATIONAL, and
> would rather buy the fantasy over actual quality
> and value. It really depends on who your buyer
> is likely to be.

In the sense you use the word here (a personal one), rationality -- like beauty -- will be in the eye of the beholder. Those who will look forward to near-term appliance shopping sessions remain a very small minority, Those who will be favorably impressed by the presence of already installed upscale appointments are meanwhile legion.

Cookies remind stupid people of a warm, friendly home environment (assuming they weren't beaten as children while the smell of cookies was in the air).

Tapawingo Rd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So if the front panel got banged up by kids playing
> and I replaced it with one exactly like the old one
> that would be fraud too? I don't buy it.

That was not the scenario actually contemplated.

> The other shit, yeah maybe, but that's why you
> always get a home inspection done. Good inspectors
> can see through any of that cosmetic bullshit.

So why try to trick anyone? You might as well decide to floor it as soon as you see the cop with his radar gun pointed at you. No good will come of it.

sort of says it all Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The owner makes no representations or warranties
> as to the condition of the real property or any
> improvements thereon, and purchasers are advised to
> exercise whatever due diligence a particular purchaser
> deems necessary including obtaining a certified home
> inspection, as defined in § 54.1-500, in accordance
> with terms and conditions as may be contained in the
> real estate purchase contract, but in any event, prior
> to settlement on a parcel of residential real property;

Might work if all parties had read and signed in an absence of duress, but there always remain rights and responsibilities that cannot be off-loaded through any amount of fancy-pants rhetoric.

not so fast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you bake chocolate chip cookies in your car?

You'd be surprised. But just as "new car smell" sprays can be purchased anywhere, vials of Arôme de biscuits au pépites de chocolat would be available everywhere if it actually had the effects claimed here for it.

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sort of says it all Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The owner makes no representations or
> warranties
> > as to the condition of the real property or any
> > improvements thereon, and purchasers are advised
> to
> > exercise whatever due diligence a particular
> purchaser
> > deems necessary including obtaining a certified
> home
> > inspection, as defined in § 54.1-500, in
> accordance
> > with terms and conditions as may be contained in
> the
> > real estate purchase contract, but in any event,
> prior
> > to settlement on a parcel of residential real
> property;
>
> Might work if all parties had read and signed in
> an absence of duress, but there always remain
> rights and responsibilities that cannot be
> off-loaded through any amount of fancy-pants
> rhetoric.

You've clearly never been involved in a real estate transaction because if you had, you'd be VERY familiar with that language.

It is part of the required disclosure form on all real estate sales...

http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/uploadedFiles/MainSite/Content/Boards/Real_Estate/REB%20Disclosure%20Statement%20-%20For%20Selling%20Homeowners.pdf

It not only MIGHT work, it does.

Pay the next door neighbor to lay out on the patio in her bikini.

sort of says it all Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the other hand Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > sort of says it all Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The owner makes no representations or
> > warranties
> > > as to the condition of the real property or
> any
> > > improvements thereon, and purchasers are
> advised
> > to
> > > exercise whatever due diligence a particular
> > purchaser
> > > deems necessary including obtaining a
> certified
> > home
> > > inspection, as defined in § 54.1-500, in
> > accordance
> > > with terms and conditions as may be contained
> in
> > the
> > > real estate purchase contract, but in any
> event,
> > prior
> > > to settlement on a parcel of residential real
> > property;
> >
> > Might work if all parties had read and signed
> in
> > an absence of duress, but there always remain
> > rights and responsibilities that cannot be
> > off-loaded through any amount of fancy-pants
> > rhetoric.
>
> You've clearly never been involved in a real
> estate transaction because if you had, you'd be
> VERY familiar with that language.
>
> It is part of the required disclosure form on all
> real estate sales...
>
> http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/uploadedFiles/MainSit
> e/Content/Boards/Real_Estate/REB%20Disclosure%20St
> atement%20-%20For%20Selling%20Homeowners.pdf
>
> It not only MIGHT work, it does.

My bad. Wrong link:

http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/uploadedFiles/MainSite/Content/Boards/Real_Estate/REB%20Disclosure%20Statement%20Notice.pdf

Rationality is not in the eye of the beholder On the other hand. There are however different degrees of irrationality, and the type of buyers you propose in your hypo are in the shallow end of irrationality.

When we bought our first single family house in 95, the former owner didn't go to any great lengths to replace any appliances. The stove had the old sealed electric burners, it was most likely from the early 70's. The fridge was from the late 70's, we won't even talk about the washer and dryer. They did have to install a heater/ac unit but it was bottom grade, we were just grateful to have been able to buy a home of our own. Little by little, as we saved money, we bought our own appliances. Don't waste your time replacing appliances, as long as yours is in good running order.

sort of says it all Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've clearly never been involved in a real
> estate transaction because if you had, you'd be
> VERY familiar with that language. It is part of
> the required disclosure form on all real estate
> sales...

In the state of Virginia -- which might be the most extreme "caveat emptor" state in the union in this regard. Which means that buyers in this state regularly insist upon contractual additions to the sale that put onus back on sellers. There are federal requirements as well of course, and even Virginia law prohibits lying about or actively concealing a problem, as well as answering buyer questions dishonestly. And of course, signature under duress would void the document.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rationality is not in the eye of the beholder...

Rationality requires only that a reasonable connection exist between actions and the rationales behind those actions. It is entirely rational for a person who dislikes Brussels sprouts to refuse to eat them. and for a person who loves them to beg for seconds and thirds. It is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

> There are however different degrees of irrationality,
> and the type of buyers you propose in your hypo are
> in the shallow end of irrationality.

I can't tell what that means, but as with vegetables, any two different people are apt to value the exact same property differently. As a seller, I want to be cognizant of the fact.

Pricing is always a tough exercise...not from the mathematical perspective, but from the emotional, oftentimes irrational perspective of the seller...

So often, if the home sells quickly, they'll think it was underpriced...if it takes a long time to sell, typically because it is overpriced, they'll think the agent isn't doing their job...

Vixis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When we bought our first single family house in
> 95, the former owner didn't go to any great
> lengths to replace any appliances. The stove had
> the old sealed electric burners, it was most
> likely from the early 70's. The fridge was from
> the late 70's, we won't even talk about the washer
> and dryer. They did have to install a heater/ac
> unit but it was bottom grade, we were just
> grateful to have been able to buy a home of our
> own. Little by little, as we saved money, we
> bought our own appliances. Don't waste your time
> replacing appliances, as long as yours is in good
> running order.

Yes, that's how it used to be. We bought our first home (as a couple - husband owned several condos already) in the mid 80s. Kitchen and baths were seriously dated. We rented out the basement to help offset the mortgage. We knew it would take a while before we could to make upgrades, and we planned accordingly.

Those days are gone. Buyers now expect a property to be in pristine condition. It amazes (and appals) me how the concepts of saving and deferred gratification seem to have disappeared in one generation. Sad, really.

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sort of says it all Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You've clearly never been involved in a real
> > estate transaction because if you had, you'd be
> > VERY familiar with that language. It is part of
>
> > the required disclosure form on all real estate
>
> > sales...
>
> In the state of Virginia -- which might be the
> most extreme "caveat emptor" state in the union in
> this regard. Which means that buyers in this
> state regularly insist upon contractual additions
> to the sale that put onus back on sellers. There
> are federal requirements as well of course, and
> even Virginia law prohibits lying about or
> actively concealing a problem, as well as
> answering buyer questions dishonestly. And of
> course, signature under duress would void the
> document.


Again....

http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/uploadedFiles/MainSite/Content/Boards/Real_Estate/REB%20Disclosure%20Statement%20Notice.pdf

That's all that is required.

You clearly have never been a party to a real estate purchase or sale. I hope you like the place you rent.

We are only talking about VA property as this is a Fairfax forum.

On the oher hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is entirely
> rational for a person who dislikes Brussels
> sprouts to refuse to eat them. and for a person
> who loves them to beg for seconds and thirds.

Your analogy doesn't fit. We aren't talking about whether it is rational to like brussel sprouts or not. We are talking about whether it is rational to refuse to go to a restaurant that serves brussel sprouts because the restaurant gives you a choice whether to have them or another vegetable rather than not giving you a choice.

sort of says it all Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's all that is required. You clearly have never
> been a party to a real estate purchase or sale.

Massive fail, moron. See the above.

> I hope you like the place you rent.

LOL! It won't help much with your worsening butthurt, but I own a now seven-figure home on a much larger than average lot and have been through the paperwork associated with its original purchase and five refinancings.

> We are only talking about VA property as this is a
> Fairfax forum.

And what you have said about the local situation has been incomplete and uninformed. You merely got called on it. That can happen, you know.

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your analogy doesn't fit. We aren't talking about
> whether it is rational to like brussel sprouts or
> not. We are talking about whether it is rational
> to refuse to go to a restaurant that serves
> brussel sprouts because the restaurant gives you a
> choice whether to have them or another vegetable
> rather than not giving you a choice.

Take it back to the drawing board, Bill. This is just leading you over the edge of a steep cliff. Rationality is tied to personal preferences and value judgments. It's that simple.

This is Fairfax County so everyone has an opinion about anything and everything related to real estate. The sales of comparable properties in your area are the basis of the price you will get. If you have owned your property for 10-20 years and it has increased in value since you bought it, you spend a little to ensure you sell at or near the top of your neighborhood price range. Speaking of which, the range for a condo in Reston can't be more than +/- $5000, can it? If you bought high and got caught by the real estate meltdown, you might have to accept less than you paid, in which case, the buyer is getting a bargain, as is. Prices will come back, eventually, and the purchaser can count his gains then. Make sure the appliances are spotless. New burners and knobs don't cost very much, and make a big difference in how a range looks. A bucket, sponge and some Spic 'n' Span are always useful in getting a kitchen looking its best.

vince price Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pricing is always a tough exercise...not from the
> mathematical perspective, but from the emotional,
> oftentimes irrational perspective of the
> seller...

The buyer and the seller are the only participants in this dialogue. No one else has any role here to play or claim. The whole thing is between the two of them. The idea that there is some independent external standard that should command or direct either party is pure poppycock.

> So often, if the home sells quickly, they'll think
> it was underpriced...if it takes a long time to
> sell, typically because it is overpriced, they'll
> think the agent isn't doing their job...

Quite the load of absolute nonsense. If I can net a 5% to 7% premium by waiting a few weeks or months for a better-than-average buyer to come along, I count that as having been a very good investment. If I am under some gun or other and forced to sell as quickly as possible, I consider getting 93% to 95$% of what I could have gotten by waiting to have been a pretty good deal as well.

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sort of says it all Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That's all that is required. You clearly have
> never
> > been a party to a real estate purchase or sale.
>
>
> Massive fail, moron. See the above.

See this:

http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/uploadedFiles/MainSite/Content/Boards/Real_Estate/REB%20Disclosure%20Statement%20Notice.pdf

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> vince price Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Pricing is always a tough exercise...not from
> the
> > mathematical perspective, but from the
> emotional,
> > oftentimes irrational perspective of the
> > seller...
>
> The buyer and the seller are the only participants
> in this dialogue. No one else has any role here to
> play or claim. The whole thing is between the two
> of them. The idea that there is some independent
> external standard that should command or direct
> either party is pure poppycock.

"The idea that there is some independent external standard that should command or direct either party is pure poppycock".

That may be one of the dumber things that I have seen or heard as it relates to a business transacation of ANY type, especially a business transaction that is to take place in a fairly efficient market with MULTIPLE, verifiable sources of information, such as the proposed sale of a home.

The market, and what other comparable homes are selling for, is that EXACT independent external standard that SHOULD IN FACT command and/or direct BOTH parties.

And to the point, oftentimes a seller becomes irrational with regard to this very idea, and wants to forgo all objectivity in pricing of their home, and price it in a very unrealistic fashion, based merely upon what "they want".

>
> > So often, if the home sells quickly, they'll
> think
> > it was underpriced...if it takes a long time to
> > sell, typically because it is overpriced,
> they'll
> > think the agent isn't doing their job...
>
> Quite the load of absolute nonsense. If I can net
> a 5% to 7% premium by waiting a few weeks or
> months for a better-than-average buyer to come
> along, I count that as having been a very good
> investment. If I am under some gun or other and
> forced to sell as quickly as possible, I consider
> getting 93% to 95$% of what I could have gotten by
> waiting to have been a pretty good deal as well.

Not at all "the load of absolute nonsense".

Since it said "so often", you need to understand this statement was in regards to many sellers...not all.

You take YOUR hypothetical situation, ie, being satisfied with either netting a 5% to 7% premium for "waiting", or taking 93% to 95% if you were forced to sell, to illustrate that ANY other scenario regarding a hypothetical seller's satisfaction with selling quickly or not quickly to be the "load of absolute nonsense".

So, you really think there are NO sellers out there that think that a) if their home sells quickly, it was underpriced, and b) if it doesn't sell quickly, they think the agent isn't doing their job?

Really? I mean, seriously...think about that for a minute.

And you really think that the home-pricing exercise is best done in a vacuum and no outside standard, like the recent sale of comparable homes should command or direct either party?

Really?

Wow.

On the other hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill.N. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Your analogy doesn't fit. We aren't talking
> about
> > whether it is rational to like brussel sprouts
> or
> > not. We are talking about whether it is
> rational
> > to refuse to go to a restaurant that serves
> > brussel sprouts because the restaurant gives you
> a
> > choice whether to have them or another
> vegetable
> > rather than not giving you a choice.
>
> Take it back to the drawing board, Bill. This is
> just leading you over the edge of a steep cliff.
> Rationality is tied to personal preferences and
> value judgments. It's that simple.


Dude/Dudette...a typical definition of rational: "based on reason or logic".

Do you think that is anywhere near being the same as "personal preferences and value judgments"?

More specifically, you REALLY think rationality (reason or logic) is tied to personal preferences and value judgments?

No you don't. C'mon. Please.

What the fuck are guys talking about?

Bake the God damn cookies and move on.

Lookee lookee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See this:

Do the same thing over and over again and keep expecting a different outcome. The sign of a true fail-meister.

dolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That may be one of the dumber things that I have
> seen or heard as it relates to a business
> transacation of ANY type, especially a business
> transaction that is to take place in a fairly
> efficient market with MULTIPLE, verifiable sources
> of information, such as the proposed sale of a
> home.

Pedestrian minds are not necessarily expected to grasp anything but trite and stereotypical material on the first pass. So think about what I said for a couple of weeks and see if the truth of it does not begin to dawn on you.

> The market, and what other comparable homes are
> selling for, is that EXACT independent external
> standard that SHOULD IN FACT command and/or direct
> BOTH parties.

LOL! That's nonsense! A willing buyer and a willing seller set the market. They are the only participants who matter. What some vaguely similar home six blocks away may have sold for six months ago means exactly nothing. It's just these two parties who work it out. Wake up and smell the coffee.

> So, you really think there are NO sellers out
> there that think that a) if their home sells
> quickly, it was underpriced, and b) if it doesn't
> sell quickly, they think the agent isn't doing
> their job?

I really don't care what idiots think. Anyone however would be correct to suspect that if the home sells quickly, the price was set too low, that more thousands of dollars in pure profit could have been realized had a higher price that added few weeks to the process been chosen. If you aren't some real estate flipper, selling a house is one of the largest and rarest deals you will ever be a part of. You can't afford to blow profits on it and expect to make them up elsewhere. There isn't any elsewhere. You are merely allowing someone else to walk off with money that should have been yours.

opposite ends of the spectrum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More specifically, you REALLY think rationality
> (reason or logic) is tied to personal preferences
> and value judgments? No you don't. C'mon. Please.

I might lend a hand here with some of the heavy lifting, but you're going to have to take care of the lightweight stuff by yourself. What happened to the Edsel? What was irrational about the death of New Coke? Corporations spend millions learning about and trying to shape consumer preferences. Any idea why they do that?