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SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: More Than Fed Up ()
Date: September 08, 2014 01:48AM

Watch for this news on Monday morning: SLEEP has force-fed new numbers to FCPS Facilities and Transportation Services.

It's no longer $5,438,022 for 47 new buses. Without changing anything else, it's now only $4,907,482 for 27 buses.

Yes folks, it's not how much you spend, it's what you save that's important, and this is a whopping $530,540 savings!

BUT.... it comes with a caveat: For the future, our goal will be to continue to seek improvements for even later start times so that middle schools will move towards 8:00 and high schools will move towards 8:30.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: More Than Fed Up ()
Date: September 08, 2014 02:04AM

STILL BASED ON LIES AND HALF-TRUTHS!

Statement: Biological changes in sleep and in circadian rhythms make it almost impossible for adolescents to fall asleep before 11 pm.

Lie. Fall-asleep time is dependent on when electronic devises are turned off, not circadian rhythms.


Statement: Scientific studies have shown that the average adolescent needs 8 1/2-9 1/2 hours of sleep per night.

Misleading. The same studies showed no correlation between hours of sleep and school start times. in case you missed it: LATER START TIMES DO NOT RESULT IN MORE SLEEP FOR TEENS!

Statement: Middle and high school start times earlier than 8 am are associated with: Chronic insufficient sleep and sleepiness, higher rates of tardiness and absenteeism, increased drop-out rates, more behavior problems in school, lower academic performance, higher rates of driving citations and car accidents in teens.

Lie. None of these problems correlate with school start times. In fact, a review of school systems of similar size to FCPS with later High School start times revealed that those systems actually had MORE of these incidents per 1,000 students than those school systems which started earlier.

In addition, the increased traffic on our roads at 7:45 compared with 7:00 GUARANTEES more tardy students, more students in accidents, and more buses not arriving on time.

THE BIGGEST LIES OF ALL:

Students in schools with later school start times (8 am or later): sleep more (i.e., they do not stay up later, and they do sleep later in the morning), are less likely to be depressed or have thoughts of suicide, and get better grades and perform better on standardized tests (like SATs).

TRUTH: THE TEENS DO STAY UP LATER. NO CORRELATION BETWEEN SUICIDES/DEPRESSION AND LATER START TIMES. NO CORRELATION BETWEEN LATER START TIMES AND GRADES.


There's more. Read the BLUEPRINT FOR CHANGE here:

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/9NFMEW5AF1D3/$file/Blueprint%20for%20Change%20Presentation.pdf

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: More than Fed Up ()
Date: September 08, 2014 02:11AM

Remember that the FCPS Board DID NOT commission a study on whether later start times would benefit the students. They paid SLEEP consultants to figure out HOW TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Let's face it. Too much money and political capital has been expended to stop this from happening. By the time the consequences of this terrible decision are apparent to the students living through them, those who pushed it will be long gone.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: yl5ud ()
Date: September 08, 2014 02:25AM

You forgot to mention the WTOP article on how the "cost" was reduced:

"The purchase of 20 new buses has already been allocated in the FY 2015 school board budget, bringing costs to an estimated $1.5 million to $4.9 million, depending on which areas are amended."

Smoke. Mirrors.

Read more: http://www.wtop.com/41/3695000/FCPS-moves-closer-to-new-high-school-start-times#ixzz3ChctCtCb

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Imsosure ()
Date: September 08, 2014 07:24AM

Im so sure all the science deniers are the same ones that are anti-climate change. the real truth is school used to start later till we wanted to cut costs and use fewer buses.

Im also sure few of the 'its good for teens to wake up at 545am' crowd are either childless or simply need early daycare. The truth is telling a 12 year old they have to wake up 90 min. before sunrise (winter) is absurd. No rational adult would design this even in agrarian times.

In the days before electricity people were more tied to the sun for their sleep cycle. Sun goes down at 5pm you eat, clean read a little and go to bed. We no longer live in that world so asking our kids to follow a life style based on the 18th century is dumb.

I wish SLEEP had more power. I wish my 12 year old could wake up 7:30 or even 8am instead of 5:50am. And another thing - I call bullshit on the fact that 'every hardworking family is up before sunrise' When I get up the only lights on around (yes its quite dark even now as sunrise is still early) are families getting their kids to school. Most everyone is sound asleep at 5:50am.

Except our kids...

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Scientific Method ()
Date: September 08, 2014 08:02AM

The school board already concluded that the SLEEP initiative is not based on science. The so-called scientific studies were paid for by those who have vested interest in later start times (money, not kid health), and were never independently peer approved. that's crap science.

That does not mean the school board will not vote to spend the money for later start times.

Like climate change? Maybe. More like closing Clifton ES to speed up the West Springfield HS renovation. Which of course did not happen.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Not this Shit Again ()
Date: September 08, 2014 08:08AM

NO ONE WANTS LATER START TIMES EXCEPT THE OLD SLEEP BIDDIES. THEY BELIEVE IN IT LIKE THEIR SKY GOD.

ASK THE KIDS WHAT THEY WANT. WHEN YOU ADMIT LATER START TIMES MEANS ENDING SCHOOL AT 3:00 OR LATER, THEY SAY FUCK IT.

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Re: SLEEP Opponents Lies Continue
Posted by: ThatGuy ()
Date: September 08, 2014 08:14AM

I am a SLEEP supporter and my kid does NOT ride any bus.
Let my kid wake up at a normal time.
NET SUM = zero dollars.

For all you non-SLEEP supporters,
do you really love seeing your kids wake up like zombies before sunrise?
Do you really love the bus service so much because it's good for the kids, or
is it good for you?
ARE YOU TOO BUSY OR TOO LAZY TO TAKE YOUR KID TO SCHOOL IN YOUR CAR?
because having the kids on the bus allow you to get to your shitty government job earlier?
Because you cannot stand up to your boss and say you must come in an hour later and stay an hour later?
YES, I CHANGED MY SCHEDULE TO ACCOMODATE MY KIDS SCHOOL CALENDAR.
Am I wrong or do I just love my kid more than you?

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Who..? ()
Date: September 08, 2014 08:24AM

Scientific Method Wrote:
------- The so-called
> scientific studies were paid for by those who have
> vested interest in later start times (money, not
> kid health), and were never independently peer
> approved. that's crap science.
>
Who will make money from the later start time?

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Here's one ()
Date: September 08, 2014 12:22PM

Who..? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> >
> Who will make money from the later start time?


Who made money from Global Warming? Al Gore to promote it, lots of Government Grant recipients to "study" the problem and make the "correct" recommendations.

For SLEEP? Same concept, smaller scale. Let's start with Dr. Judith Owens and her "team."

Don't expect a slide showing who (or how much) FCPS paid so far to create the needed justification for the time change.

Maybe one of the FU FOIA experts can find it.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: That other guy ()
Date: September 08, 2014 12:31PM

It's later END times that are the issue. Not just because the teens cram so much into their afternoons.

Later END times will lead to MORE CLASS TIME MISSED for doctor appointments, etc. Those after-school 3:00 appointments will now be during school. Ever try for a 4:00 pediatric appointment? Not many out there.

Later END times mean more teens driving during evening rush hour, IN THE DARK.

Later END times mean sports practices will end after dark.

Later END times are UNSAFE and UNHEALTHY. There I said it.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: FOIA? ()
Date: September 08, 2014 12:36PM

I would like to see the data on which high schools have teens boarding buses before 6 am, how many, and their new bus times with the proposed changes.

Let's decide on facts people.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: one more guy ()
Date: September 08, 2014 12:40PM

Who..? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Scientific Method Wrote:
> ------- The so-called
> > scientific studies were paid for by those who
> have
> > vested interest in later start times (money,
> not
> > kid health), and were never independently peer
> > approved. that's crap science.
> >
> Who will make money from the later start time?

Perhaps it's not money but a political agenda - http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/1646548.html

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: here ya go ()
Date: September 08, 2014 01:08PM

Note the cited CNMC study says more sleep is good, nothing about later start/end times helping with more sleep.



FAIRFAX COUNTY, Va. (WJLA) – Fairfax County Public Schools Superintendent Karen Garza will present a proposal to implement later high school start times at a School Board meeting on Monday, September 8.

Pediatricians say later school start times would help curb 'chronic sleep loss' in teens.

Garza’s proposal would have high school students beginning school no earlier than 8 a.m. Under the same proposal, middle school students would begin school at 7:30 a.m. The elementary schools would not be affected.
The proposal is the latest in the county’s discussion on later start times which started more than a decade ago and has picked up even more support in recent years.

A recent study by the Children’s National Medical Center showed teenagers should get more sleep in order to improve their mental health and boost their academic achievement. The school district also held community meetings earlier this summer to gather community feedback about the possibility of later school start times.

The board will vote on Garza’s proposal in late October. Any approved changes could go into effect as soon as next school year.


Read more: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/09/karen-garza-fairfax-countyvschools-superintendent-to-present-new-plan-for-later-school-start-times-1.html#ixzz3CkEO7jVU
Follow us: @ABC7News on Twitter | WJLATV on Facebook

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Safety Concern ()
Date: September 08, 2014 01:19PM

Right now my high school student gets home a few minutes before my 1st grader. With a later high school time, my first grader will have no one to meet him.

That is a problem for many of us.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: use birth control next time ()
Date: September 08, 2014 01:22PM

idiot lolz

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: VK9Dn ()
Date: September 08, 2014 01:44PM

use birth control next time Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> idiot lolz


Honest reply I respect that. Anyway it doesnt take a genius to know kids shouldnt have to get up at 5:50 to go to school.

As to the global warming/SLEEP new world order tin-foil-hat group arguing its all about money (to the green industry) that argument is fine but you have to compare it to the money interests in the fossil fuel industry.

Consider this: The fossil fuel industry is huge. There are 1,469 oil and gas firms listed on stock exchanges around the world, worth a combined $4.65 trillion. ExxonMobil - worth $425 billion - is the second largest company in the world after Apple.

Each of the world's top four oil and gas firms is on its own larger than the entire $220 billion stock market value of the clean energy sector, BNEF reports. The 275 listed coal firms are worth $233 billion.

http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2014/08/why-fossil-fuel-divestment-wont-be-easy/

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Ditto ()
Date: September 08, 2014 01:54PM

That other guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's later END times that are the issue. Not just
> because the teens cram so much into their
> afternoons.
>
> Later END times will lead to MORE CLASS TIME
> MISSED for doctor appointments, etc. Those
> after-school 3:00 appointments will now be during
> school. Ever try for a 4:00 pediatric
> appointment? Not many out there.
>
> Later END times mean more teens driving during
> evening rush hour, IN THE DARK.
>
> Later END times mean sports practices will end
> after dark.
>
> Later END times are UNSAFE and UNHEALTHY. There I
> said it.


I agree

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: September 08, 2014 02:46PM

I am so glad my youngest is a senior so this is the last year of this Sleep BS for me.

Yes all other things being equal some high school kids would benefit if school started an hour later. However all other things are not equal. The one universal under all pro seals is that a later start time means a later end time for those same high school students. The negatives on this have been repeatedly discussed. There will also be increased truancy as kids will be leaving for school after their parents have left for work. For some kids the benefit of a later start time will be lost because the kid will stay up later. For others the benefit will be lost because after school activities will be shifted to before school. Then you have those kids for whom 8:00 William still be too early, so you will have 8:00 zombies rather than 7:00 zombies.

We also have a history in Fairfax County of earlier start times and kids functioned well enough then. In addition there is also a body of sleep research which shows that sleep patterns can be changed.

The question isn't whether some kids will benefit from later start times. The question is whether the benefit outweighs the costs, to themselves, to their classmates who would not benefit, to other school age kids, to the teachers, to taxpayers and to the county society at large. This is what SLEEP advocates have so far failed to address.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Moo ()
Date: September 08, 2014 02:55PM

Safety Concern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right now my high school student gets home a few
> minutes before my 1st grader. With a later high
> school time, my first grader will have no one to
> meet him.
>
> That is a problem for many of us.


I need the later start time because my kids have to tend the farm animals.
With the current time the kids wake up the animals while doing their barn work.
The animals don't like it.

Heck when the crops need harvesting they lose school time.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: daycare starting before sunrise ()
Date: September 08, 2014 03:29PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am so glad my youngest is a senior so this is
> the last year of this Sleep BS for me.
>
> Yes all other things being equal some high school
> kids would benefit if school started an hour
> later. However all other things are not equal.
> The one universal under all pro seals is that a
> later start time means a later end time for those
> same high school students. The negatives on this
> have been repeatedly discussed. There will also
> be increased truancy as kids will be leaving for
> school after their parents have left for work.
> For some kids the benefit of a later start time
> will be lost because the kid will stay up later.
> For others the benefit will be lost because after
> school activities will be shifted to before
> school. Then you have those kids for whom 8:00
> William still be too early, so you will have 8:00
> zombies rather than 7:00 zombies.
>
> We also have a history in Fairfax County of
> earlier start times and kids functioned well
> enough then. In addition there is also a body of
> sleep research which shows that sleep patterns can
> be changed.
>
> The question isn't whether some kids will benefit
> from later start times. The question is whether
> the benefit outweighs the costs, to themselves, to
> their classmates who would not benefit, to other
> school age kids, to the teachers, to taxpayers and
> to the county society at large. This is what
> SLEEP advocates have so far failed to address.

So you are saying you got the daycare you needed to ditch your kid at 6:30 am and go off to work. Why did you have children? I mean if you basically just want them 'taken' so you can work instead of raising them why have kids?

This issue is about convenience for parents needing daycare starting before sunrise on the taxpayer's dime. I dont mind paying for your kid to attend school but lets drop the pretense that kids getting up at 6am to get to school is about money, or sports or any of that - its about daycare for working parents that like to beat the morning rush hour, nothing more...

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: September 08, 2014 04:16PM

Since I own the company I have the flexibility to leave for work whenever I want. My employees don't. Neither do most other working parents in this area.

And cut the BS about it being about daycare for high school kids. How many high or middle school kids do you know who are in daycare? That is a troll argument. My kids were your typical NoVa overachievers, sports, school related after school activities, independent after school activities, jobs, scouts etc. Between that and homework for honors and AP classes they were busy from end of school until 9 or 10. Losing an hour in the afternoon would really have messed them up. Just because your kids don't do anything worthwhile after school doesn't mean everyone else's kids are in the same boat.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Get up same time as now ()
Date: September 08, 2014 04:23PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since I own the company I have the flexibility to
> leave for work whenever I want. My employees
> don't. Neither do most other working parents in
> this area.
>
> And cut the BS about it being about daycare for
> high school kids. How many high or middle school
> kids do you know who are in daycare? That is a
> troll argument. My kids were your typical NoVa
> overachievers, sports, school related after school
> activities, independent after school activities,
> jobs, scouts etc. Between that and homework for
> honors and AP classes they were busy from end of
> school until 9 or 10. Losing an hour in the
> afternoon would really have messed them up. Just
> because your kids don't do anything worthwhile
> after school doesn't mean everyone else's kids are
> in the same


So let overachieving kids get up and do homework an hour early if the time moves back

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: September 08, 2014 04:33PM

Won't work when the jobs, sports and activities are all in the afternoon or early evening. Why not have your kids get acclimated to going to bed earlier? Sleep science shows it is possible to reset kids clocks by controlling diet, activities and environmental factors.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: response to Bill N ()
Date: September 08, 2014 05:24PM

Why not have them go to bed earlier? Maybe because the parents don't want to do so. I'm convinced that this whole SLEEP action is by parents who don't rise early.
I know my kids didn't want to get up that early--but they did. They did activities, too--that will now be very difficult to include with the time change. Sports practices will be affected by the lack of daylight and family dinner will go out the window.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: daycare for working parents ()
Date: September 08, 2014 07:52PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since I own the company I have the flexibility to
> leave for work whenever I want. My employees
> don't. Neither do most other working parents in
> this area.

>

There you see you made my point for me while arguing against it - its day care for people (not you of course) that have to leave the house early (and do not have any choice about it). I dont mind the reason as much as all this false 'its good for them' and 'my kids are super achievers and need a 16 hour day (your statement was your kids need till 10pm) to do all the amazing things they do

Just be honest - dragging kids out of bed an hour and a half before sunrise in the winter is done because it is daycare for working parents - nothing more...

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: no ()
Date: September 08, 2014 07:57PM

No. It makes sense for the high school kids to go first. They generally have further to go and it avoids rush hour.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: September 08, 2014 08:09PM

daycare for working parents Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There you see you made my point for me while
> arguing against it - its day care for people (not
> you of course) that have to leave the house early
> (and do not have any choice about it). I dont
> mind the reason as much as all this false 'its
> good for them' and 'my kids are super achievers
> and need a 16 hour day (your statement was your
> kids need till 10pm) to do all the amazing things
> they do
>
> Just be honest - dragging kids out of bed an hour
> and a half before sunrise in the winter is done
> because it is daycare for working parents -
> nothing more...

Clearly I am violating Lincoln's rule, because I am arguing with someone who is too dense to understand that middle and high school students don't need day care, and who didn't notice I pointed this out later in that same post he quoted.

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Re: SLEEP Opponents Lies Continue
Posted by: kiss 'n ride ()
Date: September 08, 2014 09:02PM

ThatGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a SLEEP supporter and my kid does NOT ride
> any bus.
> Let my kid wake up at a normal time.
> NET SUM = zero dollars.
>
> For all you non-SLEEP supporters,
> do you really love seeing your kids wake up like
> zombies before sunrise?
> Do you really love the bus service so much because
> it's good for the kids, or
> is it good for you?
> ARE YOU TOO BUSY OR TOO LAZY TO TAKE YOUR KID TO
> SCHOOL IN YOUR CAR?
> because having the kids on the bus allow you to
> get to your shitty government job earlier?
> Because you cannot stand up to your boss and say
> you must come in an hour later and stay an hour
> later?
> YES, I CHANGED MY SCHEDULE TO ACCOMODATE MY KIDS
> SCHOOL CALENDAR.
> Am I wrong or do I just love my kid more than you?


If everybody took your advice and drives their kid to school, you will have to get up even earlier. Depending on the school, up to two thousand kids ride the bus to school.

Do you think you'll notice all those additional fucking cars vying with you for the Kiss 'N Ride line? I bet you do.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: SLEEPing Idiots ()
Date: September 08, 2014 09:44PM

SLEEP used to claim that changing start times was going to be free or even reduce busing costs.

It's curious that calls out SLEEP on this.

It's at least $5M at this point. A far cry from free.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: CMtpW ()
Date: September 08, 2014 10:10PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> daycare for working parents Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There you see you made my point for me while
> > arguing against it - its day care for people
> (not
> > you of course) that have to leave the house
> early
> > (and do not have any choice about it). I dont
> > mind the reason as much as all this false 'its
> > good for them' and 'my kids are super achievers
> > and need a 16 hour day (your statement was your
> > kids need till 10pm) to do all the amazing
> things
> > they do
> >
> > Just be honest - dragging kids out of bed an
> hour
> > and a half before sunrise in the winter is done
> > because it is daycare for working parents -
> > nothing more...
>
> Clearly I am violating Lincoln's rule, because I
> am arguing with someone who is too dense to
> understand that middle and high school students
> don't need day care, and who didn't notice I
> pointed this out later in that same post he
> quoted.

I have a 7th grader - I wouldnt abandon them to go get up make breakfast and go to school alone. Nor would I want them spending from 3pm till I get home at 6-7 alone. Im here for them, that is why I had children instead of just pets. If that makes me 'dense' so be it.

'Daycare' may be a misnomer but you can substitute 'adult supervision' if it makes you happy. People want early school so they can go to work and have adult supervision provided by the county for their kids.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Tuxdw ()
Date: September 08, 2014 10:14PM

SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLEEP used to claim that changing start times was
> going to be free or even reduce busing costs.
>
> It's curious that calls out SLEEP on this.
>
> It's at least $5M at this point. A far cry from
> free.

We are one of the largest public school systems and we have a $2.5 Billion dollar annual budget. Thats 2.5 thousand million dollars you cheap bastard...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: CJCvF ()
Date: September 08, 2014 10:49PM

Tuxdw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLEEP used to claim that changing start times
> was
> > going to be free or even reduce busing costs.
> >
> > It's curious that calls out SLEEP on this.
> >
> > It's at least $5M at this point. A far cry
> from
> > free.
>
> We are one of the largest public school systems
> and we have a $2.5 Billion dollar annual budget.
> Thats 2.5 thousand million dollars you cheap
> bastard...

$5M is a BS number. It's just large enough to sound realistic, and low enough to make it sound so easy to do. It will cost a lot more than that, and 27 buses ain't near enough. They'll need enough buses to service the MS and HS simultaneously, or no one will ever get to school on time. It's like Obamacare - once it's in place, SLEEP with never go away, no matter the cost. They are counting on that.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: SLEEPing Idiots ()
Date: September 08, 2014 11:11PM

Tuxdw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLEEP used to claim that changing start times
> was
> > going to be free or even reduce busing costs.
> >
> > It's curious that calls out SLEEP on this.
> >
> > It's at least $5M at this point. A far cry
> from
> > free.
>
> We are one of the largest public school systems
> and we have a $2.5 Billion dollar annual budget.
> Thats 2.5 thousand million dollars you cheap
> bastard...

FCPS also laid off staff, froze pay raises, and begged the Board of Supervisors for more money. Doesn't sound like FCPS is flush with cash.

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Enough Already ()
Date: September 09, 2014 01:12AM

Every argument SLEEP used to promote later start and end times has been shown to be based on poor science, or an outright lie.

The zero cost proposal is now multi-millions of dollars, plus labor and maintenance costs for buses, year after year.

Traffic is far worse at 7:45 than 7:00, so they will still have to leave almost as early.

Every after school activity will be negatively affected.

No teen wants to be in a classroom past 3:00 every day.

WHY IS THIS IDIOT PROPOSAL STILL BEING CONSIDERED??????

Even Phyllis Payne and Sandy Evans, SLEEPS co-founders have backed away from their initial assertions on how later start/end times might lead to more hours of sleep. Fact: IT WON'T!

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Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: CNU Next Year ()
Date: September 09, 2014 01:24AM

It's 1:24 am and I just finished my homework. delay school an hour and I will be going to sleep at 2:24. That's bullshit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Proof please ()
Date: September 09, 2014 06:54AM

Enough Already Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every argument SLEEP used to promote later start
> and end times has been shown to be based on poor
> science, or an outright lie.
>
> The zero cost proposal is now multi-millions of
> dollars, plus labor and maintenance costs for
> buses, year after year.
>
> Traffic is far worse at 7:45 than 7:00, so they
> will still have to leave almost as early.
>
> Every after school activity will be negatively
> affected.
>
> No teen wants to be in a classroom past 3:00 every
> day.
>
> WHY IS THIS IDIOT PROPOSAL STILL BEING
> CONSIDERED??????
>
> Even Phyllis Payne and Sandy Evans, SLEEPS
> co-founders have backed away from their initial
> assertions on how later start/end times might lead
> to more hours of sleep. Fact: IT WON'T!

Please provide evidence to your "fact" it won't
Must be peer reviewed
you may be right but we need facts not your feelings

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: vpvEP ()
Date: September 09, 2014 07:00AM

SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tuxdw Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > SLEEP used to claim that changing start times
> > was
> > > going to be free or even reduce busing costs.
> > >
> > > It's curious that calls out SLEEP on this.
> > >
> > > It's at least $5M at this point. A far cry
> > from
> > > free.
> >
> > We are one of the largest public school systems
> > and we have a $2.5 Billion dollar annual budget.
>
> > Thats 2.5 thousand million dollars you cheap
> > bastard...
>
> FCPS also laid off staff, froze pay raises, and
> begged the Board of Supervisors for more money.
> Doesn't sound like FCPS is flush with cash.


They are not flush with cash. Funding was rolled back due to decreases in tax rates during the housing bubble.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: dimwit... ()
Date: September 09, 2014 07:04AM

Enough Already Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every argument SLEEP used to promote later start
> and end times has been shown to be based on poor
> science, or an outright lie.
>

I love people who state absolute 'facts' and deny science based on that 'fact' and never cite any of it. We understand you Believe the point is baseless and that you believe these 'facts' support your argument but the truth is you have no idea. If you have access to facts cite your source - you will influence people rather than come off as a dimwit...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: parents dump kids for commute ()
Date: September 09, 2014 07:13AM

Enough Already Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> No teen wants to be in a classroom past 3:00 every
> day.
>
> WHY IS THIS IDIOT PROPOSAL STILL BEING
> CONSIDERED??????
>

Yes because 12 year olds would rather get up at 5:50 am, an hour and a half before sunrise in the winter rather than stay in school till 3pm - brilliant. Im sure if you surveyed teens they would all want to get up 90 min. before the sun. Yea sure. This in light of the fact teens brains simply keep them up later.

There is so much research on the fact that teens need sleep and their sleep patterns are different from the rest of us. I get that this is about money an convenience for parents wanting to beat morning rush hour.

Here educate yourselves if you like with decades of peer reviewed research http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=teen+sleep&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C47&as_sdtp=

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Best you can do, SLEEP? ()
Date: September 09, 2014 10:28AM

parents dump kids for commute Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Enough Already Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > No teen wants to be in a classroom past 3:00
> every
> > day.
> >
> > WHY IS THIS IDIOT PROPOSAL STILL BEING
> > CONSIDERED??????
> >
>
> Yes because 12 year olds would rather get up at
> 5:50 am, an hour and a half before sunrise in the
> winter rather than stay in school till 3pm -
> brilliant. Im sure if you surveyed teens they
> would all want to get up 90 min. before the sun.
> Yea sure. This in light of the fact teens brains
> simply keep them up later.


TEENS WERE SURVEYED. OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSED STARTING LATE WHEN THEY LEARNED THEY WOULD BE IN CLASSROOMS UNTIL 3:00 PM.

OH, AND HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS ARE 14-18 YEARS OLD, NOT 12 AS YOU STATED.

>
> There is so much research on the fact that teens
> need sleep and their sleep patterns are different
> from the rest of us. I get that this is about
> money an convenience for parents wanting to beat
> morning rush hour.
>

PAID RESEARCH. COMMISSIONED TO CONCLUDE WHAT THEY WERE PAID TO CONCLUDE. NOT PEER REVIEWED. CIRCULAR REFERENCES SUPPORTING EACH OTHER. ZERO INDEPENDENT THOUGHT OR ACTUAL DATA.


> Here educate yourselves if you like with decades
> of peer reviewed research
> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=teen+sle
> ep&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C47&as_sdtp=

USING GOOGLE AS YOUR PRIMARY REFERENCE JUST REINFORCES MY POINT.

POST A LINK TO ALL THE PEER-REVIEWED DATA-BASED STUDIES AND WE CAN HAVE A LESS OBTUSE CONVERSATION.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: TYPE IN CAPS ()
Date: September 09, 2014 12:46PM

1. Interesting - source please

1.a middle school students are on the same schedule as HS at the moment - they start at 12 yrs.

2. Actually sleep data on teens has been around a long time. If its a conspiracy its been going for a

3. Okay you dont like Google Scholar Search here is NIH PUBMED all peer reviewed on the subject of teen sleep http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=teen+sleep

Id list more but you seem to require more help than I have time to give. Also you cite nothing just TYPE IN CAPS - TYPING IN CAPS DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT BY THE WAY...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Best you can do, SLEEP? ()
Date: September 09, 2014 05:11PM

TYPE IN CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Interesting - source please
>
> 1.a middle school students are on the same
> schedule as HS at the moment - they start at 12
> yrs.

WRONG.

>
> 2. Actually sleep data on teens has been around a
> long time. If its a conspiracy its been going for
> a

FOR A WHAT? A VICTORY OVER SCIENCE AND THE NEEDS OF STUDENTS?

>
> 3. Okay you dont like Google Scholar Search here
> is NIH PUBMED all peer reviewed on the subject of
> teen sleep
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=teen+slee
> p

THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT. NOT A SINGLE ARTICLE USING DATA TO SHOW A LINK BETWEEN LATER START/END TIMES AND TEEN SLEEP HOURS.

AND LOOK AT ONE OF THE AUTHOR'S OF THE VERY FIRST ARTICLE ON YOUR LIST... P.A.PAYNE. YOU KNOW HER AS THE LEADER OF SLEEP, PHYLLIS PAYNE.

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?132+ful+HJ5026

JUNK SCIENCE WITH POLITICAL CONNECTIONS. THE WORST OF THE WORST.

>
> Id list more but you seem to require more help
> than I have time to give. Also you cite nothing
> just TYPE IN CAPS - TYPING IN CAPS DOES NOT MAKE
> YOU RIGHT BY THE WAY...

MAYBE NOT, BUT IT ALLOWS ME TO USE MY ONE HAND TO TYPE, INCLUDING USING COMPLETE SENTENCES AND PUNCTUATION. INCLUDING APOSTROPHES. YOU CAN'T SEEM TO DO THAT WITH TWO HANDS. BUT ENOUGH PERSONAL BASHING, THIS IS ABOUT THE POLITICAL LIES OF SLEEP, NOT ME.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: tuunj ()
Date: September 09, 2014 06:32PM

^ the anti-sleep argument personified...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Bells ()
Date: September 10, 2014 09:52AM

Woodson starts at 7:20 Frost starts at 7:25 basically the same bell schedule. they stagger it by 5 min because the buses carry grades 7-12 in the same vehicles so they drop the HS kids off first (schools are adjacent).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: jnuut ()
Date: September 10, 2014 10:07AM

tuunj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^ the anti-sleep argument personified...


Isn't Phyllis Payne the biological child of Liz Bradsher and Megan McLaughlin?

Look for her to seek political office in the not-too-distant future.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Annandale Patch ()
Date: September 10, 2014 11:10AM

Latest news from the Annandale Patch

http://patch.com/virginia/annandale/fairfax-county-school-board-prefers-8-am-start-time-high-school-0#.VBERDvldXTp

Summary:

The School Board indicated that the option outlined below is the preferred one, according to a news release from FCPS. Here’s more about the proposal, from the release:

Next, the Superintendent will submit this option for the School Board’s formal consideration as a new business item at its regular business meeting on Sept. 18. The School Board is scheduled to vote on Oct. 23. Any change will not take place until the 2015-16 school year.

Elementary: 8 a.m. to 2:45 p.m. or 9:20 a.m. to 4:05 p.m. (depending on the school)
Middle: 7:30 a.m. to 2:15 p.m.
High School: 8-8:10 a.m. to 2:45-2:55 p.m.
Plan Cost/# of Buses: $5,438,022 (47 buses)
Revised Plan Cost: $4,907, 482 (27 buses)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: inffoPEMEC ()
Date: September 10, 2014 11:47AM

There are actually a bunch of studies on later start times.

I understand a lot of people will dismiss evidence-based research based on their bias but there is really nothing to be done about those people - there is no logical way to change their point of view. For the rest here are some sources:

http://www.smartschoolstart.org/school-start-times/

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: SLEEPing Idiots ()
Date: September 10, 2014 06:31PM

inffoPEMEC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are actually a bunch of studies on later
> start times.
>
> I understand a lot of people will dismiss
> evidence-based research based on their bias but
> there is really nothing to be done about those
> people - there is no logical way to change their
> point of view. For the rest here are some
> sources:
>
> http://www.smartschoolstart.org/school-start-time
> s/


Did you read these studies? The evidence is absurdly weak.

It's interesting that the SLEEP sheep never actually quote the "improvements" that are observed from these studies, so let's summarize the results from Dr. Wahlstrom's study "Examining the Impact of Later High School Start Times on the Health and Academic Performance of High School Students: A Multi-Site Study":

Tardy rates decreased... or stayed the same. Is that worth $5M to you?

GPAs increased or decreased... is that worth $5M to you?

Performance on standardized test increased or decreased... is that worth $5M to you?

Vehicle crash rates decreased or increased... is that worth $5M to you?

In short, there is no overwhelming evidence that this change will do anything - other than waste $5M. It may help a few kids but it will certainly hurt a few also.

All of these studies are similar. There may be some very minor beneficial effect, but we're doing fine even with these "too early" start times.

Go to bed earlier, cut out the electronics, and you'll do fine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: infoPENIS ()
Date: September 10, 2014 06:50PM

inffoPEMEC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are actually a bunch of studies on later
> start times.
>
> I understand a lot of people will dismiss
> evidence-based research based on their bias but
> there is really nothing to be done about those
> people - there is no logical way to change their
> point of view. For the rest here are some
> sources:
>
> http://www.smartschoolstart.org/school-start-time
> s/


You do realize that most of those articles are written by paid advocates for later start times, including Dr. JA Owens, who is being paid well by FCPS to provide cover for the school board's decision.

Wish they had put their money into a study to show how later start times in other districts led to more sleep for students. Alas, they did not, and all the evidence shows students just stay up later.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: New Bells ()
Date: September 10, 2014 06:54PM

Bells Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Woodson starts at 7:20 Frost starts at 7:25
> basically the same bell schedule. they stagger it
> by 5 min because the buses carry grades 7-12 in
> the same vehicles so they drop the HS kids off
> first (schools are adjacent).

The new (interim?) Woodson principal announced that if Woodson starts at 8:00 am next year, then Frost will start at 7:30 or earlier, and they will ride separate buses.

Should make Pickett/Little River/Main Street that much more fun during rush hour.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: UthTF ()
Date: September 10, 2014 08:34PM

infoPENIS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> inffoPEMEC Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There are actually a bunch of studies on later
> > start times.
> >
> > I understand a lot of people will dismiss
> > evidence-based research based on their bias but
> > there is really nothing to be done about those
> > people - there is no logical way to change
> their
> > point of view. For the rest here are some
> > sources:
> >
> >
> http://www.smartschoolstart.org/school-start-time
> > s/
>
>
> You do realize that most of those articles are
> written by paid advocates for later start times,
> including Dr. JA Owens, who is being paid well by
> FCPS to provide cover for the school board's
> decision.
>
> Wish they had put their money into a study to show
> how later start times in other districts led to
> more sleep for students. Alas, they did not, and
> all the evidence shows students just stay up
> later.


Okay Ill bite - where is 'all the evidence?' I understand you think the science presented by SLEEP is bogus but your sources and evidence are non-existent yet you cite them as gospel. Im open minded I would welcome a review of your evidence. You do have something in writing dont you? Even one study would be a start.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Ubvdn ()
Date: September 10, 2014 09:34PM

New Bells Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bells Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Woodson starts at 7:20 Frost starts at 7:25
> > basically the same bell schedule. they stagger
> it
> > by 5 min because the buses carry grades 7-12 in
> > the same vehicles so they drop the HS kids off
> > first (schools are adjacent).
>
> The new (interim?) Woodson principal announced
> that if Woodson starts at 8:00 am next year, then
> Frost will start at 7:30 or earlier, and they will
> ride separate buses.
>
> Should make Pickett/Little River/Main Street that
> much more fun during rush hour.

Interesting. I had not heard that and was wondering what the plan was for those two schools. I'm surprised they would do that given that they're not doing that for secondary schools. It would just cost more money since more buses and drivers would be needed to basically run the same routes twice.

I'd love to know for sure what the plan is for Woodson and Frost. Wonder when they'll put out specific schedules.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: syncing ()
Date: September 10, 2014 10:47PM

Ubvdn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> New Bells Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Bells Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Woodson starts at 7:20 Frost starts at 7:25
> > > basically the same bell schedule. they
> stagger
> > it
> > > by 5 min because the buses carry grades 7-12
> in
> > > the same vehicles so they drop the HS kids
> off
> > > first (schools are adjacent).
> >
> > The new (interim?) Woodson principal announced
> > that if Woodson starts at 8:00 am next year,
> then
> > Frost will start at 7:30 or earlier, and they
> will
> > ride separate buses.
> >
> > Should make Pickett/Little River/Main Street
> that
> > much more fun during rush hour.
>
> Interesting. I had not heard that and was
> wondering what the plan was for those two schools.
> I'm surprised they would do that given that
> they're not doing that for secondary schools. It
> would just cost more money since more buses and
> drivers would be needed to basically run the same
> routes twice.
>
> I'd love to know for sure what the plan is for
> Woodson and Frost. Wonder when they'll put out
> specific schedules.


I understand standardized hours - all elementary schools have the same hours; middle same; hs same - is the game plan. That would explain why Woodson and Frost hours which work ideally now would be changed to a less efficient and more costly time schedule.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: H6Uej ()
Date: September 11, 2014 09:05AM

inffoPEMEC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I understand a lot of people will dismiss
> evidence-based research based on their bias but
> there is really nothing to be done about those
> people

There is no unbiased research. Everyone involved, both for and against, has some bias. To insert the term "evidence-based" does not confer on any research some sort of immutable truth - it's one or a small group of persons opinion, extrapolating from some empirical evidence. It is not infallible. Insisting that we all accept such studies as fact actually shows your bias.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: fj44w ()
Date: September 11, 2014 02:32PM

syncing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ubvdn Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > New Bells Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Bells Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Woodson starts at 7:20 Frost starts at 7:25
> > > > basically the same bell schedule. they
> > stagger
> > > it
> > > > by 5 min because the buses carry grades
> 7-12
> > in
> > > > the same vehicles so they drop the HS kids
> > off
> > > > first (schools are adjacent).
> > >
> > > The new (interim?) Woodson principal
> announced
> > > that if Woodson starts at 8:00 am next year,
> > then
> > > Frost will start at 7:30 or earlier, and they
> > will
> > > ride separate buses.
> > >
> > > Should make Pickett/Little River/Main Street
> > that
> > > much more fun during rush hour.
> >
> > Interesting. I had not heard that and was
> > wondering what the plan was for those two
> schools.
> > I'm surprised they would do that given that
> > they're not doing that for secondary schools.
> It
> > would just cost more money since more buses and
> > drivers would be needed to basically run the
> same
> > routes twice.
> >
> > I'd love to know for sure what the plan is for
> > Woodson and Frost. Wonder when they'll put out
> > specific schedules.
>
>
> I understand standardized hours - all elementary
> schools have the same hours; middle same; hs same
> - is the game plan. That would explain why
> Woodson and Frost hours which work ideally now
> would be changed to a less efficient and more
> costly time schedule.

I'd buy that except they've already said they're leaving secondary schools on the same buses. So those middle school students will be starting with the high schoolers around 8. Even though Woodson/Frost are in separate buildings, their proximity means they're treated just like a secondary school in terms of bussing. Seems they would just leave it the same as the secondary schools.

As a matter of fact, in 2008 when they were considering this change in schedule, they were trying to find MORE schools whose proximity allowed them to double bus. Lee/Key and Chantilly/Rocky Run were both considered and by doubling the bus runs they were able to eliminate the need for 5 runs at each school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: At the meeting ()
Date: September 11, 2014 11:32PM

fj44w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Even though
> Woodson/Frost are in separate buildings, their
> proximity means they're treated just like a
> secondary school in terms of bussing. Seems they
> would just leave it the same as the secondary
> schools.
>


You are not paying attention. Frost and Woodson students WILL ride separate buses next year. that decision needed to be made before the later start time decision so that the costs would not be attributed to the later start times.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: TYWdd ()
Date: September 12, 2014 07:53AM

>
> I'd buy that except they've already said they're
> leaving secondary schools on the same buses. So
> those middle school students will be starting with
> the high schoolers around 8.

Not true. The middle school will continue to start around 730 am and HS will be 8-8:10 am. Middle schoolers will still wake up very early under the proposed plan.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: HwuTy ()
Date: September 12, 2014 07:58AM

H6Uej Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> inffoPEMEC Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I understand a lot of people will dismiss
> > evidence-based research based on their bias but
> > there is really nothing to be done about those
> > people
>
> There is no unbiased research. Everyone involved,
> both for and against, has some bias. To insert
> the term "evidence-based" does not confer on any
> research some sort of immutable truth - it's one
> or a small group of persons opinion, extrapolating
> from some empirical evidence. It is not
> infallible. Insisting that we all accept such
> studies as fact actually shows your bias.


reductio ad absurdum - no one said that the studies constituted metaphysical certitude. That is a last ditch debating tactic on your part to assert that as the argument. This is the same rationale used by persons arguing against science on global climate. "Its not an absolute truth therefore it is unusable' The truth is we operate with the best information we have available. When you go to the doctor you dont refuse treatment when it is only 99.5% effective - you take the treatment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: YouPeople ()
Date: September 12, 2014 08:17AM

You people are so lame.
EVERY post is talking about this bus or that bus.

Tell me you love your kid -- then also tell me you want your kid to get up before the buttcrack of dawn, walk like a zombie to the bus stop, get on an unsafe vehicle with no seatbeats driven by an underpaid county employee and sit your kid next to some bully or retrograde.

Your kid suffers all this just so you can get to your cubicle early to play solitaire on your work PC.

If you love your kid get them off the bus.
Drive their ass to school.
And pack their damn lunch instead of relying on the taxpayer pay for their free lunch.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: juststarted ()
Date: September 12, 2014 10:12AM

My kid just entered middle school so we just started this schedule - what a joke. Im personally pissed at all the sheep parents that put up with this before me. I have to go to bed at 1030 now to get 7 hours of sleep. WTF?

My kid has to get up at 6 am to make the bus at 6:30am. That means he has to be asleep by 930pm in order to get the recommended minimum 8.5 hours of sleep. That is the time he gets out of scouts at night. No more Boy scouts.

I could go on but bottom line is this is totally stupid. If we cannot afford enough busses then build more schools and have kids walk to school. Un-Goddamn believable.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: ebtdC ()
Date: September 12, 2014 10:13AM

YouPeople Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You people are so lame.
> EVERY post is talking about this bus or that bus.
>
> Tell me you love your kid -- then also tell me you
> want your kid to get up before the buttcrack of
> dawn, walk like a zombie to the bus stop, get on
> an unsafe vehicle with no seatbeats driven by an
> underpaid county employee and sit your kid next to
> some bully or retrograde.
>
> Your kid suffers all this just so you can get to
> your cubicle early to play solitaire on your work
> PC.

>
> If you love your kid get them off the bus.
> Drive their ass to school.
> And pack their damn lunch instead of relying on
> the taxpayer pay for their free lunch.

ITT

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: LOLOL ()
Date: September 12, 2014 10:20AM

juststarted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I could go on but bottom line is this is totally
> stupid. If we cannot afford enough busses then
> build more schools and have kids walk to school.
> Un-Goddamn believable.


Wow, why didn't they think of that?

New schools are so much cheaper than buses!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Interesting ()
Date: September 12, 2014 12:05PM

TYWdd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I'd buy that except they've already said
> they're
> > leaving secondary schools on the same buses.
> So
> > those middle school students will be starting
> with
> > the high schoolers around 8.
>
> Not true. The middle school will continue to
> start around 730 am and HS will be 8-8:10 am.
> Middle schoolers will still wake up very early
> under the proposed plan.


Fairfax County specifically said already that secondary schools will continue to ride the same buses. Where did you hear that they were going to split the secondary buses and send the middle schoolers at the earlier time?. Because on the FCPS facebook page they addressed the secondary school question directly and said "Secondary schools will follow the high school schedule, and all students would start at the same time."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Cavaliers! ()
Date: September 12, 2014 01:08PM

Interesting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where did you hear that they were going to
> split the secondary buses and send the middle
> schoolers at the earlier time?.

Dan Meier announced this change during the first week of school at one of the sports meetings, in response to a question regarding what time students will be released in the afternoon next year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: CmVdN ()
Date: September 12, 2014 02:05PM

LOLOL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> juststarted Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I could go on but bottom line is this is
> totally
> > stupid. If we cannot afford enough busses then
> > build more schools and have kids walk to school.
>
> > Un-Goddamn believable.
>
>
> Wow, why didn't they think of that?
>
> New schools are so much cheaper than buses!

Exactly so everyone shut the hell up and be glad we are just adding buses. 2 billion dollar budget and everyone is acting like 5 million is a big deal in a school system with exploding enrollment. its not. Add a shitload of buses drives ect. and let kids get their education without having to wake up at 6am.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Secondary schools ()
Date: September 12, 2014 03:25PM

Secondary schools will follow the HS start times like they do now. It would be absurd to add a second bus run. It would cost too much and be a waste of time.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: bds ()
Date: September 12, 2014 07:31PM

Secondary schools Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Secondary schools will follow the HS start times
> like they do now. It would be absurd to add a
> second bus run. It would cost too much and be a
> waste of time.


They are going to have one hell of a time finding bus drivers at the secondary schools. Unless the elementary start times change, many drivers will only be able to do a secondary school run.

Who the hell is going to get up, drive to a bus yard, work for maybe an hour or an hour and a half, and go home. And then do it again in the afternoon?
Go to and from work ten times in a week for maybe 15 hours total a week? They already have trouble attracting bus drivers, just wait until that shit starts!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: response to bds ()
Date: September 12, 2014 07:34PM

Great analysis. I'm still thinking about all those high school kids driving to and from school during rush hour. I can think of several major arteries near schools that are already awful.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: SLEEPing Idiots ()
Date: September 12, 2014 08:38PM

CmVdN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOLOL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > juststarted Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > I could go on but bottom line is this is
> > totally
> > > stupid. If we cannot afford enough busses
> then
> > > build more schools and have kids walk to
> school.
> >
> > > Un-Goddamn believable.
> >
> >
> > Wow, why didn't they think of that?
> >
> > New schools are so much cheaper than buses!
>
> Exactly so everyone shut the hell up and be glad
> we are just adding buses. 2 billion dollar budget
> and everyone is acting like 5 million is a big
> deal in a school system with exploding enrollment.
> its not. Add a shitload of buses drives ect. and
> let kids get their education without having to
> wake up at 6am.

Again, FCPS recently laid off staff, froze pay raises, and begged the Board of Supervisors for more money. They couldn't even find $7M to implement full day Mondays.

This change will do nothing (other than satisfy some stay-at-home busybodies).

You might as well burn that $5M in a big bonfire.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Reap what you sow ()
Date: September 12, 2014 08:58PM

There's some real hilarity here. Apparently I don't love my child if I don't tell my boss to change my hours so my snowflake can text an hour later every night. AND I'm supposed to be packing his lunch. WTF?

Sanctimonious asshole commentators like this are the same parents who call college professors to complain about their 22-year-old's grades and meanie roommates. Since y'all are so into studies, check out the plethora of current research that helicopter parenting is producing anxious, helpless adults who aren't equipped to navigate the world on their own. Or don't bother--you'll soon have your own precious test case back living in the basement, demanding you still cook his meals and do his laundry because he sure as hell doesn't know how.

I caught the bus for high school (public transit, no less) at 6:50 a.m., and that was 35 years ago. There's nothing new about early start times!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: PMHuJ ()
Date: September 12, 2014 09:19PM

SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Again, FCPS recently laid off staff, froze pay
> raises, and begged the Board of Supervisors for
> more money. They couldn't even find $7M to
> implement full day Mondays.
>
> This change will do nothing (other than satisfy
> some stay-at-home busybodies).
>
> You might as well burn that $5M in a big bonfire.

I have to laugh -'stay at home busybodies' you know there was a day in this country when people took pride in raising their kids not being shamed by it. If someone stays at home to raise their kid not only is that their choice I think its admirable in this materialist society. Make no mistake staying at home in this economy limits the amount of stuff you can purchase.

In my generation almost all families had a 'stay at home busy body' - they were called our 'Moms' and they were some really amazing people.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: YouNeedAbiggertoilet ()
Date: September 12, 2014 09:23PM

Reap what you sow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's some real hilarity here. Apparently I
> don't love my child if I don't tell my boss to
> change my hours so my snowflake can text an hour
> later every night. AND I'm supposed to be packing
> his lunch. WTF?
>
> {u}Sanctimonious asshole commentators like this are
> the same parents who call college professors to
> complain about their 22-year-old's grades and
> meanie roommates.[/u] Since y'all are so into studies,
> check out the plethora of current research that
> helicopter parenting is producing anxious,
> helpless adults who aren't equipped to navigate
> the world on their own. Or don't bother--you'll
> soon have your own precious test case back living
> in the basement, demanding you still cook his
> meals and do his laundry because he sure as hell
> doesn't know how.
>
> I caught the bus for high school (public transit,
> no less) at 6:50 a.m., and that was 35 years ago.
> There's nothing new about early start times!


No by that time our kids are the ones at the top of the class. Its your kids paying $$$ for online degrees because our kids take their pick of the affordable State schools. Maybe you should have had goldfish instead of kids - at least if they are too much for your work schedule you can flush them down the toilet.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: thatGuy ()
Date: September 12, 2014 10:46PM

Every parent buys food for his own kid's lunch.

Schools /Feds save millions on the free lunch program.

Use those millions to buy more buses or build more schools.

Problem solved.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: reader... ()
Date: September 15, 2014 07:07PM

It's amazing with the SLEEP people waiving around "science" how unscientific the community input process was. In the both the in person and online feedback, there appears to have been no effort to capture some kind of preference for each option. The comments for the online options run to several hundred pages of individual responses, but apparently FCPS has no way to capture preference numerically. Wonder why? The in person sessions it looks like someone transcribed a bunch of flip charts. It appears they wanted the appearance of community input with actually recording it.

The online comments are hilarious. This is my favorite:

380 don't fuck the shit up 6/16/2014 12:50 PM

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Dr. Delphi ()
Date: September 15, 2014 07:55PM

reader... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's amazing with the SLEEP people waiving around
> "science" how unscientific the community input
> process was. In the both the in person and online
> feedback, there appears to have been no effort to
> capture some kind of preference for each option.
> The comments for the online options run to several
> hundred pages of individual responses, but
> apparently FCPS has no way to capture preference
> numerically. Wonder why? The in person sessions
> it looks like someone transcribed a bunch of flip
> charts. It appears they wanted the appearance of
> community input with actually recording it.
>

They call it the "modified delphi" approach. Basically, you divide a large group into smaller ones to avoid the potential of a majority opinion or consensus opposed to the moderator from bubbling to the surface.

Then every opinion in the mini groups is given the same weight, and reported as such.

Totally skews the results, or presents so many ideas that they can all be tossed.

It's how we approach school redistricting also.

It's bullshit, and everyone knows it, but it checks the box for community involvement.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: Property owners pay taxes ()
Date: September 16, 2014 07:48AM

Property owners pay taxes for school - yet we are the ones that have to wake kids up at 6 am because there is not enough money to transport kids to school before sunrise. Money for new school admin blds, money for 'free' programs for everyone. Money for our kids - nope. This is for type-A A-holes that want to dump their kids on the school/daycare from 630 am to 530am (perfect for your commute). Most of them then have kids attend 'activities' in the evening. With any luck they end up spending only an hour or so with the kids each day!

Im sick of getting up at 530. Im sick of feeding my kid breakfast in the pitch black of night (get up at 6 and look out the window these days folks).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: SLEEP Political Lies Continue
Posted by: More Buses = Higher Taxes ()
Date: September 16, 2014 08:52AM

Property owners pay taxes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Im sick of getting up at 530.

And yet, by 7:48 am you have settled down to peruse Fairfax Underground and rant about your meaningless life.

May I suggest that you take a nap?

Options: ReplyQuote


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