He has not been the same since surgery? Why is he the ace of the staff? He always gives up homers and isn't good until after the 1st inning.

No.

How do you spell no?

I would not mind trading Strasburg and Harper, for two reasons: 1) Scott Boras, and 2) Unreasonable expectations. They will never live up to expectations here, so a change of scenery may be good for both. The nats have hitched their wagon to Boras (Strasburg, Harper, Rendon, Werth, Espinosa, ...) and may live to regret it

I would trade Strasburg while he still has value. Boras will ask for the moon and Boston or LA will pick him up. He's a .500 pitcher with a bum shoulder.

What are you offering for him? Keep in mind that he's still under team control for another two seasons after this one. He's also leading the league in strikeouts while walking nobody.

Say there Mr. Rizzo, a couple of my seamhead friends keep pointing out the same stats you're alluding to below. Here's the thing about those endless metrics and stats, at the end of the day they don't mean a goddamn thing. What does matter are WINS and LOSSES. Last time I checked Mr. Strasburg has exactly 7 of each. Mediocrity at its finest. If you could get overwhelming value for him, I'd trade him in a heartbeat.

btw, unless the Nats have relocated to FFX County, I appeal to Cary to shut this useless thread down.


Mike Rizzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are you offering for him? Keep in mind that
> he's still under team control for another two
> seasons after this one. He's also leading the
> league in strikeouts while walking nobody.

Mike Rizzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are you offering for him? Keep in mind that
> he's still under team control for another two
> seasons after this one. He's also leading the
> league in strikeouts while walking nobody.

7-7.

I know the average fan simply doesn't understand, but wins and losses for pitchers are arbitrary. You can be awful and win or brilliant and lose. Strasburg's 7-7 record tells us exactly nothing about how he will pitch over the second half. Remember how Mark Buehrle won 10 of his first 12 starts? How many has he won since?

Yes, because his arm is about to explode again.

Say what you will Mr Jizzo, but at the end of the regular season only two things matter....Wins and Losses. They're so far from arbitrary that they are in fact the ONLY thing that matters.

You see, your boy is way overrated and will never live up to the hype. His velocity has diminished, his mind isn't right, he loves giving up the long ball and he is nothing more than average at this point. Okay, maybe he's a smidgen better than average and should be classified as a good pitcher. But he's far from great and likely never will be.



Mike Rizzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know the average fan simply doesn't understand,
> but wins and losses for pitchers are arbitrary.
> You can be awful and win or brilliant and lose.
> Strasburg's 7-7 record tells us exactly nothing
> about how he will pitch over the second half.
> Remember how Mark Buehrle won 10 of his first 12
> starts? How many has he won since?

Can't we consider Strasburg's feelings on this matter? No doubt he's begging to be traded to get out of this Loserville of a sports city. That should count for something.

Mike Rizzo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know the average fan simply doesn't understand,
> but wins and losses for pitchers are arbitrary.
> You can be awful and win or brilliant and lose.
> Strasburg's 7-7 record tells us exactly nothing
> about how he will pitch over the second half.
> Remember how Mark Buehrle won 10 of his first 12
> starts? How many has he won since?

Then let's talk about a 3.55 ERA (23 among NL starters). The best you can say is that he has a low DIPS, but bad luck cannot explain everything.

The trading deadline is approaching.. who would actually want him?

AntiBoswell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Say what you will Mr Jizzo, but at the end of the
> regular season only two things matter....Wins and
> Losses. They're so far from arbitrary that they
> are in fact the ONLY thing that matters.
>
> You see, your boy is way overrated and will never
> live up to the hype. His velocity has diminished,
> his mind isn't right, he loves giving up the long
> ball and he is nothing more than average at this
> point. Okay, maybe he's a smidgen better than
> average and should be classified as a good
> pitcher. But he's far from great and likely never
> will be.
>
>
>
> Mike Rizzo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know the average fan simply doesn't
> understand,
> > but wins and losses for pitchers are arbitrary.
>
> > You can be awful and win or brilliant and lose.
>
> > Strasburg's 7-7 record tells us exactly nothing
> > about how he will pitch over the second half.
> > Remember how Mark Buehrle won 10 of his first
> 12
> > starts? How many has he won since?

Strasburg was the best pitching prospect since Mark Prior, who was the best since Ben McDonald. We have to accept that drafting is a crap shoot, and while he is very good he will never be consistently dominating.

he can be dominate at times but flakes out way too often, a funky mound or an error behind him and he falls apart. Everyone knows he's bolting as soon as he hits free agency so the Nats should move him after the season.

Baseball is for full on faggits! Fucking dumbest most boring game in history. Anybody that thinks it's a sport is a ass fucking felching lib.

fuck you !!!!? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baseball is for full on faggits! Fucking dumbest
> most boring game in history. Anybody that thinks
> it's a sport is a ass fucking felching lib.


Oh look, one of the cute little neckbeard trolls has appeared from mom's basement. What would you prefer to discuss rather than baseball? Midgetville, Justin Wolfe, HS Football, Helicopters, Super Hot EMT, Bunnyman Bridge, Sharon Bulova, Tuba Guy, Westfield Sluts, murderous Local Contractor etc etc??

> Oh look, one of the cute little neckbeard trolls
> has appeared from mom's basement. What would you
> prefer to discuss rather than baseball?
> Midgetville, Justin Wolfe, HS Football,
> Helicopters, Super Hot EMT, Bunnyman Bridge,
> Sharon Bulova, Tuba Guy, Westfield Sluts,
> murderous Local Contractor etc etc??

Vienna mattress stores

Truth Teller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, because his arm is about to explode again.

Well, it's outlasted your head.

Typical Harper, hustles too much when he should have stopped as second, next at bat he'll pull up short running to first.

AntiBoswell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Say what you will Mr Jizzo, but at the end of the
> regular season only two things matter....Wins and
> Losses. They're so far from arbitrary that they
> are in fact the ONLY thing that matters.

That's team records, not pitchers records. Wins and losses for pitchers are a poor indicator of their talent and performance.

> You see, your boy is way overrated and will never
> live up to the hype.

You must be crushing the stock market with your ability to see into the future like that. In our line of work, we call comments like that "childish".

> His velocity has diminished, his mind isn't right,
> he loves giving up the long ball and he is nothing
> more than average at this point.

Have another beer, bozo. We don't want him to throw 97 or 98, and his secondary pitches are easily good enough where he doesn't have to. The K's are an indicator of that.

> Okay, maybe he's a smidgen better than
> average and should be classified as a good
> pitcher. But he's far from great and likely never
> will be.

What would you know about the matter? You don't really seem to have much of a clue as to what's going on here At all.

Kilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can't we consider Strasburg's feelings on this
> matter? No doubt he's begging to be traded to get
> out of this Loserville of a sports city. That
> should count for something.

This is a loser town if you are a loser. That may be your problem. As far as MLB baseball players go, DC is quite an attractive destination. That's why we are on so few no-trade lists among premium players.

Tarasco Wrote:

>
> Have another beer, bozo. We don't want him to
> throw 97 or 98, and his secondary pitches are
> easily good enough where he doesn't have to. The
> K's are an indicator of that.
>

So is his ERA and the of home runs given up. He is NOT the Ace of the team, pitches like the 4th starter, paid like the Ace.

keep it simple Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then let's talk about a 3.55 ERA (23 among NL
> starters). The best you can say is that he has a
> low DIPS, but bad luck cannot explain everything.

Get consistent. If you believe in DIPS, then luck absolutely does explain everything else. Meanwhile, Strasburg is at or near the top of the NL heap in terms of walks and strikeouts, and while his HR rate has been up this season, pitchers within +/- one HR of him include Lohse, Greinke, Bailey, Gallardo, Simon, and Teheran. These are staff leaders, not average pitchers.

anyone watching Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The trading deadline is approaching.. who would
> actually want him?

Everyone. But he clearly isn't going anywhere.

branch rickey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Strasburg was the best pitching prospect since
> Mark Prior, who was the best since Ben McDonald.
> We have to accept that drafting is a crap shoot,
> and while he is very good he will never be
> consistently dominating.

You left out Brien Taylor, but the point is irrelevant. To this point in his career, Strasburg's hits allowed rate is in the Bob Gibson, Jim Palmer, Roger Clemens range. I assume you've heard of those guys.

pump and dump Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> he can be dominate at times but flakes out way too
> often, a funky mound or an error behind him and he
> falls apart. Everyone knows he's bolting as soon
> as he hits free agency so the Nats should move him
> after the season.

LOL! Spoken like a true Redskins fan!

AntiBoswell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh look, one of the cute little neckbeard trolls
> has appeared from mom's basement. What would you
> prefer to discuss rather than baseball?
> Midgetville, Justin Wolfe, HS Football,
> Helicopters, Super Hot EMT, Bunnyman Bridge,
> Sharon Bulova, Tuba Guy, Westfield Sluts,
> murderous Local Contractor etc etc??

LOL! There is something about the 10th-grade mindset!

Tuba Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Typical Harper, hustles too much when he should
> have stopped as second, next at bat he'll pull up
> short running to first.

The art of making things happen. If you don't get thrown out from time to time, you're not doing it right.

best seats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So is his ERA and the of home runs given up. He is
> NOT the Ace of the team, pitches like the 4th
> starter, paid like the Ace.

Dude, he's making less than $4 million. That's a distant fourth among the Nats starting five, leading only Tanner Roark.

Hell of a lot of complaints here for a team that has the best record in the NL

Guess some people just can't be happy.

Tarasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> branch rickey Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Strasburg was the best pitching prospect since
> > Mark Prior, who was the best since Ben McDonald.
>
> > We have to accept that drafting is a crap
> shoot,
> > and while he is very good he will never be
> > consistently dominating.
>
> You left out Brien Taylor, but the point is
> irrelevant. To this point in his career,
> Strasburg's hits allowed rate is in the Bob
> Gibson, Jim Palmer, Roger Clemens range. I assume
> you've heard of those guys.

S Strasburg 5.1 innings 9 hits 4 runs 4 earned runs 3 walks 5 strikeouts (yay!) 3.67 ERA

Tarasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> keep it simple Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Then let's talk about a 3.55 ERA (23 among NL
> > starters). The best you can say is that he has
> a
> > low DIPS, but bad luck cannot explain
> everything.
>
> Get consistent. If you believe in DIPS, then luck
> absolutely does explain everything else.
> Meanwhile, Strasburg is at or near the top of the
> NL heap in terms of walks and strikeouts, and
> while his HR rate has been up this season,
> pitchers within +/- one HR of him include Lohse,
> Greinke, Bailey, Gallardo, Simon, and Teheran.
> These are staff leaders, not average pitchers.

No, I said "the best YOU can say." Anyway, Strasburg is now 26 years old. He should be peaking but instead he is a .500 pitcher. The best case scenario is that he goes the way of other #1 overall picks such as Tim Belcher or Andy Benes: Win around 150 games, lose around 120, and be represented by Scott Boras.

Dincyz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hell of a lot of complaints here for a team that
> has the best record in the NL

True by the very thinnest of margins.

> Guess some people just can't be happy.

Some find fulfillment in denigrating everything. That Michaelangelo was not really such a hot artist, you know. Kind of pointless, but you hear it all too often around this town.

jeffrey maier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> S Strasburg 5.1 innings - 9 hits - 4 runs - 4 earned
> runs - 3 walks - 5 strikeouts (yay!) - 3.67 ERA

In Colorado. With Detwiler letting inherited runners in. But if you want to complain, take a look at Adam Wainright's line from last night. At home. Against the mighty Rays.

But to get back to the actual point, what are any of you offering in trade for Strasburg? What sort of package do you think you could put together that would get you a deal done?

jeffrey maier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tarasco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > branch rickey Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Strasburg was the best pitching prospect
> since
> > > Mark Prior, who was the best since Ben
> McDonald.
> >
> > > We have to accept that drafting is a crap
> > shoot,
> > > and while he is very good he will never be
> > > consistently dominating.
> >
> > You left out Brien Taylor, but the point is
> > irrelevant. To this point in his career,
> > Strasburg's hits allowed rate is in the Bob
> > Gibson, Jim Palmer, Roger Clemens range. I
> assume
> > you've heard of those guys.
>
> S Strasburg 5.1 innings 9 hits 4 runs 4 earned
> runs 3 walks 5 strikeouts (yay!) 3.67 ERA

He just had bad luck today.

In 2009, the Nationals had the #1 and #10 overall picks. They took Strasburg and Storen. With the #25 pick (compensation for the Yankees signing Teixeira) the Angels took Mike Trout. Another case of quality over quantity.

so not fair Wrote:
> He just had bad luck today.


Seems to be the case a little more than half the times he pitches.

henley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, I said "the best YOU can say."

Pretty feeble. It was you who brought up DIPS. Why?

> Anyway, Strasburg is now 26 years old.

Yup. 26 years and 3 days.

> He should be peaking but instead he is a .500 pitcher.

Get off the wins and losses. They are not a good indicator of either performance or potential. Nolan Ryan's career winning percentage was .526. Strasburg's is currently .571. That's tied with Zach Greinke. It's better than Cole Hamels. It's better than Dave Stewart, Vida Blue, or Don Sutton.

> The best case scenario is that he goes the way of
> other #1 overall picks such as Tim Belcher or Andy
> Benes: Win around 150 games, lose around 120, and
> be represented by Scott Boras.

Why won't he be like David Price? Why do I have the feeling that your roulette wheel is just a little crooked?

draftnik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In 2009, the Nationals had the #1 and #10 overall
> picks. They took Strasburg and Storen. With the
> #25 pick (compensation for the Yankees signing
> Teixeira) the Angels took Mike Trout. Another
> case of quality over quantity.

In 2009, Trout was a 17-year old HS senior who was troubled by quality breaking balls. Scouts saw him as a potential Aaron Rowand with a little more speed. They liked his make-up though.

As for the brilliance of the Angels, Trout was not the first player they selected in 2009 (Randall Grichuk was). It was also they who took C Mike Nunn instead of C Ted Simmons in 1967, and P Seth Etherton over P CC Sabathia in 1998. Then again, every team has such tales to tell.

Quote

I think Nats fans are starting to feel disappointed that Harper and Strasburg, so far in their careers, are both vastly overrated compared to the hype that surrounded them when they were drafted. Two “once in a decade” talents ought to be playing at Kershaw and Trout levels. They may yet reach those lofty heights, but if they were already the Nats would easily be the best team in baseball by a comfortable margin. And yes, it’s hard to keep being patient with them and hoping they take it to that next level.

http://natsinsider.com/2014/07/23/instant-analysis-rockies-6-nats-4/

Now that's a perspicacious guy.

baseball fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now that's a perspicacious guy.

Just another hoser with hindsight. Such people are a dime a dozen. Actual insight is quite a bit more rare.

Tarasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> best seats Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So is his ERA and the of home runs given up. He
> is
> > NOT the Ace of the team, pitches like the 4th
> > starter, paid like the Ace.
>
> Dude, he's making less than $4 million. That's a
> distant fourth among the Nats starting five,
> leading only Tanner Roark.

That's exactly why we need to trade him now. He will be leaving come free agent time.. the more he pitches, the more his value goes down.

Even Strasburg’s college newspaper has jumped off the bandwagon.

Quote

Strasburg has never been the same since his injury and many people have pointed to his mechanics as a long-term issue that might affect his career moving forward. Even before his surgery, scouts were concerned with how he pitched. The sequence of Strasburg’s delivery places a great deal of stress on his arm, placing him at greater risk of elbow and shoulder injuries.

http://www.thedailyaztec.com/53471/sports/former-aztec-strasburg-struggling-in-mlb/

fuck you !!!!? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baseball is for full on faggits! Fucking dumbest
> most boring game in history. Anybody that thinks
> it's a sport is a ass fucking felching lib.

Tell that to Charles Krauthammer.

kids say the darnedest things Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even Strasburg’s college newspaper has jumped
> off the bandwagon.

Like the media-driven spin that surrounded Strasburg's final year at SDSU, the Daily Aztec (seriously?) article is a bunch of puerile goober-spin written by a Single-A rookie with no future in the game. Strasburg for instance was injured in his 12th -- not his 3rd -- start of the 2010 season. And everyone who was at Citizens Bank Park that night (including me) knew what the problem was the moment Strasburg winced, grabbed his elbow, and walked off the mound. There was no "revealing" to be done, just release of the gory technical details. Meanwhile, innings limits in the first season back from TJ surgery are the accepted standard of medical procedure. As Scott Boras was pointing out at the time, the club might have been liable if it failed to heed the well-established advice of the medical community. The Nats have since worked to divert Strasburg from a kid's "blow 'em away" mentality into a pitch-to-contact guy who gets outs early in the count, using full-effort reach-back stuff in emergency situations only. The plan is for him to have a 15-year career, not a five-year career. None of the names mentioned above by spin-critics has been Josh Johnson. I wonder why.

Meanwhile, I'm still not seeing any trade offers put on the table. Too tough a question? Maybe try it from the Nats perspective. If you were thinking of trading Strasburg, what would you see as the Nats actual needs, and what would you need to get back in the deal to convince you to pull the trigger?

Things that matter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tell that to Charles Krauthammer.

Only as I was pushing him down a staircase. Such a vile creature. But George Will, maybe. If he behaved.

Duuuuuh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's exactly why we need to trade him now. He
> will be leaving come free agent time.. the more he
> pitches, the more his value goes down.

That's what the Red Sox thought about Babe Ruth. Meanwhile, assuming that a deal is not worked out in the meantime, the earliest Strasburg could leave would be in 2017. All else being equal, both Fister and Jordan Zimmerman are eligible for free agency in 2016. Trade them too?

As a nats fan- I hate to say this- trade him (as soon as it is possible per his contract). Get someone healthy. Unless he is willing to work 300% on rehabilitation....

Kinda like the RG-knee situation. I like him too- but am concerned about that knee.

Tarasco Wrote:
--------------------------------------
> Well, it's outlasted your head.

You know so much about mechanics. Tell me, what is Jordan Zimmermann currently experiencing and why?

Also, tell me why guys who do what Strasburg does tend to get hurt. Why do Inverted W/L pitchers tend to have shoulder and/or elbow problems?

I submit as evidence Anthony Reyes, Stephen Strasburg, Mark Prior, Matt Harvey, Kerry Wood, and Adam Wainwright.

Dincyz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hell of a lot of complaints here for a team that
> has the best record in the NL
>
> Guess some people just can't be happy.


I'll only be happy when we win something that matters in this town. To hell with the divisional titles and best regular season records. I want a championship. Remember Game 5. Remember Seattle.

Toyota truck driving dbag. F Strasburg.

Stephen Strasburg will never be the next Justin Verlander.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1631855-explaining-why-stephen-strasburg-will-never-be-mlbs-next-justin-verlander

Strasburg’s performance doesn’t appear to be all that unlucky after all.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/06/03/has-nationals-ace-stephen-strasburg-been-unlucky/

Man-Ass-As Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a nats fan- I hate to say this- trade him (as
> soon as it is possible per his contract). Get
> someone healthy. Unless he is willing to work 300%
> on rehabilitation....
>
> Kinda like the RG-knee situation. I like him too-
> but am concerned about that knee.


+10000

"I'll only be happy when we win something that matters in this town. To hell with the divisional titles and best regular season records. I want a championship. Remember Game 5. Remember Seattle."

No shit you fuckin gober, you can't win a Championship in the middle of the regular season disphit.

You won't get the same value back from Strasburg if you trade him, you make that move if you're about to start a rebuild, not now.

I swear I've lived here all my life, but DC fans have the intelligence of a Special Olympic Champion.

I am still pissed that the Nats gave Strasburg a inning count a couple years ago. If the Nats weren't complete and utter pussies that season, and pitched Strasburg normally, there is a solid chance they would have won the World Series that year instead of collapsing to the Cardinals. Of course Strasburg hasn't had the same fire since than, I would hate management here as well after they pulled that bulshit stunt.

> I swear I've lived here all my life, but DC fans
> have the intelligence of a Special Olympic
> Champion.

And you have the intelligence of Rob Dibble.

Dincyz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I am still pissed that the Nats gave Strasburg a
> inning count a couple years ago. If the Nats
> weren't complete and utter pussies that season,
> and pitched Strasburg normally, there is a solid
> chance they would have won the World Series that
> year instead of collapsing to the Cardinals. Of
> course Strasburg hasn't had the same fire since
> than, I would hate management here as well after
> they pulled that bulshit stunt.


That's what I'm talking about. Most of the fans I knew embraced that decision to shut him down, saying something like "we'll win in the future!" Those people don't know baseball. Put our record this season aside. We don't look like a good team.

Drakee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's what I'm talking about. Most of the fans I
> knew embraced that decision to shut him down,
> saying something like "we'll win in the future!"
> Those people don't know baseball. Put our record
> this season aside. We don't look like a good team.

Most DC-area sports fans are idiots. That's really what it comes down to.

Those knowledgable baseball fans who feel that Strasburg's shutdown cost the Nats the World Series seem to forget that he was tailing off at the end of the 2012 season. (I understand that some of you feel that this happened precisely becasue he was upset knowing that he would be shutdown, but that only reinforces the argument that he is fragile.) Some guy looked at his first and second 33 starts. (The early period ends June 30, 2012, so July and Aug. 2012 numbers are combined with the early 2013 numbers.) He has been a .500 pitcher since June 30, 2012.

First 33 15 and 7 with a 2.68 ERA
Second 33 11 and 12 with a 3.26 ERA
http://natsnoodles.com/2013/08/05/another-season-from-strasburg-how-has-he-changed/

Man-Ass-As Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a nats fan- I hate to say this- trade him (as
> soon as it is possible per his contract). Get
> someone healthy. Unless he is willing to work 300%
> on rehabilitation. Kinda like the RG-knee situation.
I like him too- but am concerned about that knee.

Go back to football. Strasburg is one of just five NL pitchers to have made 22 starts so far this season. He's ninth overall in total innings pitched. Hurt is something that he isn't.

Tarasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Man-Ass-As Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As a nats fan- I hate to say this- trade him
> (as
> > soon as it is possible per his contract). Get
> > someone healthy. Unless he is willing to work
> 300%
> > on rehabilitation. Kinda like the RG-knee
> situation.
> I like him too- but am concerned about that knee.
>
> Go back to football. Strasburg is one of just
> five NL pitchers to have made 22 starts so far
> this season. He's ninth overall in total innings
> pitched.

Hurt is something that he isn't.


Overrated and LOUSY is something that he is.

Truth Teller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know so much about mechanics. Tell me, what is
> Jordan Zimmermann currently experiencing and why?

MRI showed a mild biceps strain. No structural damage. As to why -- he's a pitcher. Pitching is a violent activity, especially at full-effort.

> Also, tell me why guys who do what Strasburg does
> tend to get hurt. Why do Inverted W/L pitchers
> tend to have shoulder and/or elbow problems?

Everyone else tends to have shoulder and/or elbow problems as well, you know. As even letter-theorists (such as Chris O'Leary) concede, the supposed problem with the Inverted-W et al. is that they can lead to "mistiming" between glove- and arm-side elements of the delivery, and that they say can put added stress on elbows and shoulders. In that case, it would be a coachable flaW, and deliveries could be fine-tuned to keep pitchers in proper balance.

> I submit as evidence Anthony Reyes, Stephen
> Strasburg, Mark Prior, Matt Harvey, Kerry Wood,
> and Adam Wainwright.

Rejected as grossly inconclusive. There are some 500 players who have had TJ surgery. Most are, but many are not even pitchers. These injuries are like highway accidents: we can take steps to minimize their frequency and effect, but short of $6 Million Man-type stuff, that's about it. My wife thinks that Tommy John surgery should be renamed Lucas Giolito surgery and that all pitchers drafted in the Top 100 should simply skip Rookie and Short-Season ball and go directly to the operating room after signing. Get at least the first TJ out of the way early. Makes as much sense as the inverted-W.

Drakee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll only be happy when we win something that
> matters in this town.

Your role is that of watcher, you know. The local team's record and accomplishments do not reflect either well or poorly on you.

ernie harwell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephen Strasburg will never be the next Justin Verlander.

Would it be worth noting that in 13 starts since mid-May, Verlander is 5-6 with an ERA of 6.28? His K/9 is also down from a career average of 8.4 to 6.4. This is his Age-31 season. Maybe it would be best in the long run if Strasburg did not emulate Verlander?

Drakee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most of the fans I knew embraced that decision to
> shut him down, saying something like "we'll win in
> the future!"

More likely "We want to have a shot at winning in the future!". Virtually every club has an innings limit on at-risk arms. That's because it is the only logical or sensible thing to do.

> Those people don't know baseball. Put our record
> this season aside. We don't look like a good team.

We didn't look good last year or for most of 2012 either. It looked lately like we had started to put something together, but Zimmerman's injury may take some air out of the balloon. They certainly didn't look good on Wednesday. We need at least 2-out-of-3 from the Reds, but they give us problems.

best seats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Overrated and LOUSY is something that he is.

Whatever you say. But whenever I hear that first word, I am reminded of a game during Spring Training of 2012. Jayson Werth was to bat when one of those odd sudden silences came over the crowd just as one fan let out the sing-songy "O-ver ra-ted". Everyone in the park heard it. Werth hit the next Matt Harvey delivery on top of the Tiki-Bar beyond the berm in way-deep left field.

tough guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And you have the intelligence of Rob Dibble.

If people (or the Nats' marketing department) ever get tired of the President's Race, they can have an IQ challenge between Rob Dibble, Tom Paciorek, and a block of concrete. I'm all in on the concrete.

Still nothing from the boys in the pit though about what the Nats needs are and what they should want or expect to get back for Strasburg in a trade. Obviously, we aren't going to trade him for your grandmother's pajamas, so what then?

Tarasco Wrote:
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> Still nothing from the boys in the pit though
> about what the Nats needs are and what they should
> want or expect to get back for Strasburg in a
> trade. Obviously, we aren't going to trade him
> for your grandmother's pajamas, so what then?


3 things

1. a 3rd baseman that can throw to 1st without making errors or getting hurt
2. a winning record left handed pitcher
3. a .330 hitter with at least 30 hrs

As a Nats fan, he's been a huge disappointment. If the Nats were playing the 7th game of the World Series tomorrow, the order of pitchers I'd want is: 1)Fister, 2)Zimmerman; 3)Roark; 4)Gonzalez; 5)Strasburg.

The main thing I've noticed is that he doesn't throw the gas that he used to. In college, he regularly threw 97 - 100 mph. These days, he averages 92 - 96 mph. Not sure if it's b/c of his TJ surgery or not, but he definitely does not throw as hard...and this is a problem b/c his fastball is flat. If you throw a 99 mph fastball that's flat, you're still okay b/c that's fast enough that guys will still swing and miss. If your FB is 94 and straight, it's gonna get stroked for base hits all day long by major leaguers.

I'm torn...I would trade him if the Nats could get a big haul. Then again, I feel like Strasburg could put it all together and dominate the league within a couple of years...similar to Pedro Martinez in his glory days.

Nats fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tarasco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Still nothing from the boys in the pit though
> > about what the Nats needs are and what they
> should
> > want or expect to get back for Strasburg in a
> > trade. Obviously, we aren't going to trade him
> > for your grandmother's pajamas, so what then?
>
>
> 3 things
>
> 1. a 3rd baseman that can throw to 1st without
> making errors or getting hurt
> 2. a winning record left handed pitcher
> 3. a .330 hitter with at least 30 hrs

They could get more than what the Cubs got for Samardzija and Hammel.

"3 things

1. a 3rd baseman that can throw to 1st without making errors or getting hurt
2. a winning record left handed pitcher
3. a .330 hitter with at least 30 hrs"

Not sure if troll, but if not, that would never happen.

Tarasco Wrote:
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> MRI showed a mild biceps strain. No structural
> damage. As to why -- he's a pitcher. Pitching is
> a violent activity, especially at full-effort.

Biceps strains are indicative of shoulder injury.

> Everyone else tends to have shoulder and/or elbow
> problems as well, you know. As even
> letter-theorists (such as Chris O'Leary) concede,
> the supposed problem with the Inverted-W et al. is
> that they can lead to "mistiming" between glove-
> and arm-side elements of the delivery, and that
> they say can put added stress on elbows and
> shoulders. In that case, it would be a coachable
> flaW, and deliveries could be fine-tuned to keep
> pitchers in proper balance.

It is coachable, but nobody fixes it. It leads to increased strain on the rotator cuff because the arm has to externally rotate up to 90 degrees while the rapid rotation of the torso yanks the shoulder forward. Not everyone has shoulder problems.

> Rejected as grossly inconclusive. There are some
> 500 players who have had TJ surgery. Most are,
> but many are not even pitchers. These injuries
> are like highway accidents: we can take steps to
> minimize their frequency and effect, but short of
> $6 Million Man-type stuff, that's about it. My
> wife thinks that Tommy John surgery should be
> renamed Lucas Giolito surgery and that all
> pitchers drafted in the Top 100 should simply skip
> Rookie and Short-Season ball and go directly to
> the operating room after signing. Get at least
> the first TJ out of the way early. Makes as much
> sense as the inverted-W.

Lucas Giolito has a horrible delivery. You can do things to minimize TJ surgery, but you can't eliminate it overall. Throwing overhand, hard leads to stress on the elbow. That being said, proper timing and pronation can lead to a huge, huge decrease.

yourmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The main thing I've noticed is that he doesn't
> throw the gas that he used to. In college, he
> regularly threw 97 - 100 mph. These days, he
> averages 92 - 96 mph. Not sure if it's b/c of his
> TJ surgery or not, but he definitely does not
> throw as hard...and this is a problem b/c his
> fastball is flat. If you throw a 99 mph fastball
> that's flat, you're still okay b/c that's fast
> enough that guys will still swing and miss. If
> your FB is 94 and straight, it's gonna get stroked
> for base hits all day long by major leaguers.

His shoulder is fried. Guys with Strasburg's mechanics tend to throw hard until their shoulders begin to fall apart.

Nats fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. a 3rd baseman that can throw to 1st without
> making errors or getting hurt

There's no such thing. 3B is prime error territory. The 3B's with low error totals and high FPCT's are the worst fielders out there. And of course, all ball players get hurt. It's what happens. We are actually very well set at 3B with Zimmerman, Rendon, and Walters. This is not an area of need, much less one that would warrant giving up Strasburg.

> 2. a winning record left handed pitcher

Pitchers' W-L records are deceiving. Lefty J.A. Happ is 8-5, but has pitched poorly. A.J. Burnett has pitched much better but is 6-9. Realistically, LHP names like Kershaw and Sale are simply off the table. You could jump into the David Price mess, or maybe finagle a deal for Madison Bumgarner, Wei-Yin Chen, or John Danks. But how would any of them make us a better ball club than what we would be by simply keeping Strasburg?

> 3. a .330 hitter with at least 30 hrs

That's basically Tulowitzki. Altuve and Cano are hitting .330, but neither is a good bet to get to half of 30 HR's. We could go nuts in some over-the-top bidding war with the Mets for Tulowitzki, but we already have a 20-20 Gold Glove candidate in Ian Desmond. That doesn't really sound like all that good of an idea.

Basically, the Nats don't have any pressing needs. They are at least solid everywhere. The number of teams that can say that is a small one. I don't see the team needing to make any major moves. If they could find a decent bench bat for cheap, that would be about it.

yourmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a Nats fan, he's been a huge disappointment.
> If the Nats were playing the 7th game of the World
> Series tomorrow, the order of pitchers I'd want
> is: 1)Fister, 2)Zimmerman; 3)Roark; 4)Gonzalez;
> 5)Strasburg.

The AL champs might not disagree with you.

> The main thing I've noticed is that he doesn't
> throw the gas that he used to.

Right, but he's not supposed to. He should be throwing 80% of his pitches at medium effort levels. His secondary pitches are all very good. Command those in and off the strike zone and you can beat anyone you like with 95 when the time comes.

> ...and this is a problem b/c his fastball is flat.

Two-seamer sinks, four seamer runs.

> I'm torn...I would trade him if the Nats could get
> a big haul. Then again, I feel like Strasburg
> could put it all together and dominate the league
> within a couple of years...similar to Pedro
> Martinez in his glory days.

Dodgers traded a 21-year old Pedro for Delino Deshields. They thought that was a big haul. There are almost no similarities between Pedro and Strasburg as pitchers, but they are/were both in that vague "special talent" category. Usually good just to hang onto those guys and see what develops.

trader joe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They could get more than what the Cubs got for
> Samardzija and Hammel.

One would hope, but don't underestimate what the Cubs got in that deal. The draft can be a crap-shoot, and one of the ways to beat it is to wait around and see how other people's picks pan out, then trade for best of them. For a journeyman and a guy they couldn't have re-signed, the Cubs got the A's first round pick from both 2012 and 2013 plus a ready-to-go back of the rotation starter. Addison Russell will force Javier Baez to 2B and be their starting shortstop as soon as next year and perhaps for the next decade. Billy McKinney is a legit corner outfielder, but the Cubs have a crowd out there. He could be flipped, perhaps in a package with Starlin Castro. Dan Straily won't be an All Star, but he will be taking a turn for somebody. Overall, this was a pretty nice haul for a rebuilding ball club.

Truth Teller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Biceps strains are indicative of shoulder injury.

They are an indicator of a strained biceps.

> It is coachable, but nobody fixes it.

That's odd. Here's an observable and correctable flaw that if left alone leads to major damage, yet nobody fixes it?

> Lucas Giolito has a horrible delivery.

So far, South Atlantic League hitters agree with you. In any case, I'm just not buying the dreaded-letter theories. I'd be more impressed with the cautionaries and pointers from James Andrews/ASMI. For instance...

http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=research&section=TJpositionstatement

Tarasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trader joe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > They could get more than what the Cubs got for
> > Samardzija and Hammel.
>
> One would hope, but don't underestimate what the
> Cubs got in that deal. The draft can be a
> crap-shoot, and one of the ways to beat it is to
> wait around and see how other people's picks pan
> out, then trade for best of them. For a
> journeyman and a guy they couldn't have re-signed,
> the Cubs got the A's first round pick from both
> 2012 and 2013 plus a ready-to-go back of the
> rotation starter. Addison Russell will force
> Javier Baez to 2B and be their starting shortstop
> as soon as next year and perhaps for the next
> decade. Billy McKinney is a legit corner
> outfielder, but the Cubs have a crowd out there.
> He could be flipped, perhaps in a package with
> Starlin Castro. Dan Straily won't be an All Star,
> but he will be taking a turn for somebody.
> Overall, this was a pretty nice haul for a
> rebuilding ball club.

The Cubs have been "rebuilding" for about 100 years. Theo Epstein has his work cut out for him.

Tarasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trader joe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > They could get more than what the Cubs got for
> > Samardzija and Hammel.
>
> One would hope, but don't underestimate what the
> Cubs got in that deal. The draft can be a
> crap-shoot, and one of the ways to beat it is to
> wait around and see how other people's picks pan
> out, then trade for best of them. For a
> journeyman and a guy they couldn't have re-signed,
> the Cubs got the A's first round pick from both
> 2012 and 2013 plus a ready-to-go back of the
> rotation starter. Addison Russell will force
> Javier Baez to 2B and be their starting shortstop
> as soon as next year and perhaps for the next
> decade. Billy McKinney is a legit corner
> outfielder, but the Cubs have a crowd out there.
> He could be flipped, perhaps in a package with
> Starlin Castro. Dan Straily won't be an All Star,
> but he will be taking a turn for somebody.
> Overall, this was a pretty nice haul for a
> rebuilding ball club.

Yes, it was a great haul. If the Nats were not in a pennant race, it would be enticing. We will see whether the Rays can get something similar for David Price.

Quote

Strasburg's fastball doesn't really have a lot of deception. Hitters seems to pick it up well and since he only (or mostly) throws a four-seamer he doesn't get as much action as you would from a two-seam fastball.

It's possible that Strasburg has pitched in some bad luck this year. But there are also clear indicators that his ERA is higher than his FIP for reasons other than bad luck and bad sequencing. Obviously, as the strikeout numbers indicate, when he does get ahead in the count he has deadly wipeout pitches with his curveball and changeup.

But his fastball isn't a great pitch. Until his command of it improves or he can more successfully paint the corners or develop a two-seamer with movement, Strasburg won't develop into that ace we keep expecting him to turn into.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/50175/why-stephen-strasburg-isnt-yet-an-ace

It's just one game. Lots of pitchers have given up three home runs in a game. John Smoltz once allowed four home runs in a single inning. Stephen will be fine.

He stinks. Check out tonight