I came across this news story today and it got me thinking about something that happened in our family. One of my relatives bought a house that was a the seen of a murder/suicide and then was haunted. The owner bought the house cheap and tried to sell it at first, then had to settle to rent it because of "problems" in the house (ghosts). The owner never disclosed this to the persons renting the house and would not let them out of their lease. Is this legal? Can a home owner enter into a contract with you without disclosing things like this?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
News 4 Investigates: Woman sees home on TV, learns deadly secret
http://www.kmov.com/news/investigates/Woman-learns-her-home-belonged-to-a-serial-killer-266134801.html

ST. LOUIS, Mo. -- It sounds like a made-for-TV movie, but instead it's a real life nightmare for one St. Louis woman.

It's a typical North County ranch house on a tree-lined street.

Catrina McGhaw signed the lease without worry. Her section 8 voucher covered $810 in rent.

Until a family member told McGhaw to check out a cold case documentary about serial killers airing on the A&E Network.

McGhaw is living in the same Ferguson, Missouri house serial killer Maury Travis used as a torture chamber. The landlord even gave her the dining room table; the same one from the crime scene photos.

“When she showed us the house, she said you can have this table if you want,” McGhaw said.

But it's what happened downstairs that freaks her out the most. That's where Travis recorded some of his crimes; at one point he sent the St. Louis Post Dispatch a map to identify victim 17. Some of the victims were tied to a pole in the basement.

“This whole basement was his torture chamber and it’s not okay,” she said.

McGhaw called her landlord, begging to get out of the lease, but the landlord wasn't sympathetic.

Turns out the landlord is the killer's mom.

“She said ‘no you signed a lease you need to stay there until the lease is up.’’’

News 4 called Travis' mother; she claims she told McGhaw about the home's dark past. McGhaw says that's not true, she would have remembered the people murdered in the basement part.

A local agent said murders, suicides and violent crimes don't require disclosure - only material defects need to be noted.

Also read: Missing teen sends chilling messages before disappearance

Although News 4 couldn't get Travis' mom to budge, the St. Louis Housing Authority did.

McGhaw says she will be moving at the end of July, which can't come soon enough.

She says things keep getting weirder, and can’t stop thinking about an incident with a two year old relative that was playing in the basement near the pole where Travis tied up his victims.

“She looked over and she was like she’s scared like she saw somebody scared and crying and nobody was there, nobody there,” McGhaw recalled.

It's not clear how many woman Maury Travis murdered. He killed himself in the St. Louis County Jail in 2002.

Watch the news story here:
http://www.kmov.com/news/investigates/Woman-learns-her-home-belonged-to-a-serial-killer-266134801.html
Attachments:

You don't have to disclose ghosts, just leprechauns. Everyone knows this.

I'M A FIVE-STAR MAN!!

­



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2014 07:19PM by chuckhoffmann.

chuckhoffmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely.
>
> Failure to disclose that a property was the scene
> of a homicide, felony, or suicide is not
> actionable under href="https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe
> ?000+cod+55-524">Virginia state law §55-524,
> meaning you can't sue if you discover that your
> dream home was the site of someone else's
> nightmare.
>
> There's an href="http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/wiki/Death
> _Houses">old version of a list of death houses in
> Fairfax County on the Fairfax Underground
> Wiki, and I have a more current version on the
> Fractured Fairfax wiki at
> http://www.fracturedfairfax.com/w/Death_Houses_in_
> Fairfax_County, as well as a much shorter page for
> the City of Fairfax at
> http://www.fracturedfairfax.com/w/Death_Houses_in_
> City_of_Fairfax and a Google map of unnatural
> deaths in the county at
> https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=20171700386945
> 8789079.00048f19d8b2f4e856507&msa=0
>
> There's also a Web site,
> http://www.diedinhouse.com/, that will sell you
> this information.

Thanks!

Beggars can't be choosers.

Section 8 housing... shit. You're lucky Obama gives you a roof over your head period. Just put newspaper over the blood stains. Unless it's the house from The Conjuring, deal with it.

This story is like when a homeless person asks me for money and I offer food instead and they decline.

jhey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't have to disclose ghosts, just
> leprechauns. Everyone knows this.

Duh.. but who in their right mind is going want to give away leprechauns... Lucky charms and gold...?

the question is this: which retarded fucktard does not google the house they will potentially purchase?

you deserve it OP

question is Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the question is this: which retarded fucktard does
> not google the house they will potentially
> purchase?

I believe the answer to your question can be found in the third sentence of the article.

Wahhhhhhh, a murderer used to live in the house I get to live in for free!

What's the truth? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

it sounds very real to me. a person gets impoverished in a town that doesn't pay shit and continualy nickle & dimes people , someone dies. the home is sold, or maybe auctioned in which case a political, legal, or cop will buy it (same people who impoverished the town)

you forgot to say how it is a dead person could be selling a home

police (ghosts) have to go in and out of the house for "investigaton" which is probably endless since having a cold case allows them many riches.

meanwhile the new home owner is pissed and didnt' know

---------------------
if you sell a horse and know the horse has a bad eye, you have to disclose it before sale

if you sell property in a known flood zone (well known to be or known to zoning dept) it must be disclosed

if the name of the road is "river road" and you didn't know it was a flood zone - your a dumbass

the "good faith" principle

is commercial law older than civil law. all things of a work order not on paper are assumed in good faith (and usually nothing not on paper is considered as what is asked and payed for, the work is assumed completed by normal practice and in good faith).

HOWEVER if one is dealing out of State esp overseas: do not count on enforcement. they will use distance and "loopholes" to screw you over and no one will be able to help you.

if you live in a corrupt part of the usa, ie fx. co. do not count on: enforcement of the "good faith" principle. it's in print in the law books, yes. will they do it: only if it means they are taking from you not if you are recovering.

hbuHM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's the truth? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> it sounds very real to me. a person gets
> impoverished in a town that doesn't pay shit and
> continualy nickle & dimes people , someone dies.
> the home is sold, or maybe auctioned in which case
> a political, legal, or cop will buy it (same
> people who impoverished the town)
>
>

you forgot to say how it is a dead person
> could be selling a home

>
> police (ghosts) have to go in and out of the house
> for "investigaton" which is probably endless since
> having a cold case allows them many riches.
>
> meanwhile the new home owner is pissed and didnt'
> know
>
> ---------------------
> if you sell a horse and know the horse has a bad
> eye, you have to disclose it before sale
>
> if you sell property in a known flood zone (well
> known to be or known to zoning dept) it must be
> disclosed
>
> if the name of the road is "river road" and you
> didn't know it was a flood zone - your a dumbass
>
>

the "good faith" principle

>
> is commercial law older than civil law. all
> things of a work order not on paper are assumed in
> good faith (and usually nothing not on paper is
> considered as what is asked and payed for, the
> work is assumed completed by normal practice and
> in good faith).
>
> HOWEVER if one is dealing out of State esp
> overseas: do not count on enforcement. they will
> use distance and "loopholes" to screw you over and
> no one will be able to help you.

This is incorrect, the Virginia state law §55-524 states...

§ 55-524. Actions under this chapter.

A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter or any other statute or regulation, no cause of action shall arise against an owner or a real estate licensee for failure to disclose that an occupant of the subject real property, whether or not such real property is subject to this chapter, was afflicted with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) or that the real property was the site of:

1. An act or occurrence which had no effect on the physical structure of the real property, its physical environment, or the improvements located thereon; or

2. A homicide, felony, or suicide.

B. The purchaser's remedies hereunder for failure of an owner to comply with the provisions of this chapter are as follows:

1. If the owner fails to provide the disclosure statement required by this chapter, the contract may be terminated subject to the provisions of subsection B of § 55-520.

2. In the event the owner fails to provide the disclosure required by § 55-519.1, or the owner misrepresents, willfully or otherwise, the information required in such disclosure, except as result of information provided by an officer or employee of the locality in which the property is located, the purchaser may maintain an action to recover his actual damages suffered as the result of such violation. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subdivision, no purchaser of residential real property located in a noise zone designated on the official zoning map of the locality as having a day-night average sound level of less than 65 decibels shall have a right to maintain an action for damages pursuant to this section.

C. Any action brought under this subsection shall be commenced within one year of the date the purchaser received the disclosure statement. If no disclosure statement was delivered to the purchaser, an action shall be commenced within one year of the date of settlement if by sale, or occupancy if by lease with an option to purchase.

Nothing contained herein shall prevent a purchaser from pursuing any remedies at law or equity otherwise available against an owner in the event of an owner's intentional or willful misrepresentation of the condition of the subject property.

(1992, c. 717; 1993, c. 847; 2005, c. 510; 2007, c. 265.)

You do a home inspection before you buy a home. Maybe you should do a spiritual inspection as well? FCPS seems to like this Tara Brach, Ph.D. psychologist and meditation teacher. Maybe you could start with her? If she does not do psychic house evaluations, maybe she knows someone who does.

alternative Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You do a home inspection before you buy a home.
> Maybe you should do a spiritual inspection as
> well? FCPS seems to like this Tara Brach, Ph.D.
> psychologist and meditation teacher. Maybe you
> could start with her? If she does not do psychic
> house evaluations, maybe she knows someone who
> does.

I know just the person...
Attachments:

Acts that occurred in a house that have created 'Public Stigma' must be disclosed by a licensed real estate agent. Ghosts - I dont think so. gruesome murders of public note yes.

"THIS HOUSE IS CLEAN"

YEP YEP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "THIS HOUSE IS CLEAN"
Attachments:

­



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2014 08:30AM by chuckhoffmann.

chuckhoffmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Public Stigma Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Acts that occurred in a house that have created
> > 'Public Stigma' must be disclosed by a licensed
> > real estate agent.
>
> This is absolutely incorrect.
>
> Not only does Virginia law state that the failure
> to disclose that a house has been the site of a
> homicide, felony or suicide is not grounds for a
> cause of action, but a seller's agent who
> discloses this information about a property
> without the permission of the owner may very well
> set themselves up to be sued by the
> owner.
>
> Here's a hypothetical: I own a rental property in
> which my former tenant decided to murder his
> entire family in before offing himself, which is
> actually a distressingly common occurrence in
> Fairfax County.
>
> I've had the blood mopped up and the brains wiped
> off the walls and now I want to dump the place. I
> can specifically instruct my agent to not
> disclose the fact that the place was the site of a
> gruesome murder-suicide in which a guy wiped his a
> whole family.
>
> Not only can you not sue me after you've
> bought the place and found out its horrible
> history, but if my agent lets slip the fact that
> the place was the site of a murder and queers a
> potential sale, I can sue him.
>
> Is this scummy behavior? Sure, but it's also
> perfectly legal.
>
> Do your research, because the law will
> absolutely not protect you in this case.

How could the seller be sued to notifying me (the potential buyer) of a crime having occurred there? Seems like that would be public knowledge, and an established fact. Correct?

So let's say that I'm looking at a home in McLean that is valued at let's say one million dollars. I'm knew to the area and the home was the site of a grisly 6-person murder/suicide. The owners changed the name of the estate from say Hell Estates to Heaven Estates. Also the owners petition online services like yelp, yahoo, etc. to remove any non-complimentary information about the home or the address.

I go to look at the estate and it looks great. I do some background on it, but because the name of the estate had changed from Hell Estates to Heaven Estates, I can't find any information on the home. I ask the real estate person for information on the history of the estate prior to buying. The real estate agent tells me everything about the place, but conveniently leaves out the part of the 6-person murder/suicide.

Are you saying I have no legal recourse if I buy the house, and find out later that I cannot sell it for a good price because the previous owner and real estate agent did not disclose the information to me (even though I specifically asked for it) prior to buying it?

DISCLOSURE
DO YOU HAVE TO DISCLOSE THAT A HOUSE IS HAUNTED?
Question
An agent gets a call from a prospective client and schedules an appointment to make a listing presentation. During the listing presentation, a rather desperate seller informs the agent that her family wants to sell the house as soon as possible. The seller explains that a ghost is haunting their house. The seller's family is so distraught that they have moved out of the house and are staying with friends in the area. The seller explains that she wants a quick sale regardless of the price.

The listing agent admits that this sounds "a little wild." However, the agent takes the listing and begins marketing the property at the price set by her client. The listing is entered into the Multiple Listing System and an open house is scheduled for the weekend. During the open house a young man with a scruffy appearance enters the property and asks the listing agent for a tour. After taking the prospective buyer around the house the listing agent asks for the sale. Unfortunately, she gets a rather disconcerting answer.

"Yes, my dog Scooby-Dooª will love this place. I will give the seller whatever they want if they will let us move in right away. Scooby doesn't like the spooky mansion where we currently live because it is haunted by a ghost. We want to live in a nice, quiet home with no ghosts."

Now the listing agent wants to know if she was obligated to disclose the information about the ghost to the prospective buyer.

Answer
First, let me admit that I made up the part about Scooby-Doo. Unfortunately, the rest of this is frighteningly true, though a few details from multiple calls have been combined and altered to protect the identities of those involved.

Second, some people may believe in ghosts and other people may be skeptical. However, in the spirit of Halloween and for purely educational purposes, let's just skip the question of "Do ghosts exist?" and focus on the ethical issues involved.

Article 2 of the Code of Ethics and Standards of Practice does prohibit REALTORS®from exaggerating, misrepresenting or concealing pertinent facts relating to the property or the transaction. Standard of Practice 2-1 clarifies the article by stating that REALTORS®are only obligated to discover adverse factors reasonably apparent to someone with expertise in those areas required by their real estate license. Please note that this obligation goes beyond REALTORS®¨' normal, legal obligation to disclose "É all material adverse facts pertaining to the physical condition of the property which are actually known by the licensee" (Code of Virginia ¤ 54.1-2131).

Appendix II to Part Four of the Code of Ethics and Arbitration Manual states, "Absent a legal prohibition, any material fact that could affect a reasonable purchaser's decision to purchase, or the price that a purchaser might pay, should be disclosed as required by Standard of Practice 2-1 if known by the REALTOR®, again, unless prohibited by law or regulation." This is supported by Standard of Practice 2-5, which states, "Factors defined as 'non-material' by law or regulation or which are expressly referenced in law or regulation as not being subject to disclosure are considered not 'pertinent' for the purposes of Article 2." This limits the scope of Article 2 by exempting any factors that are defined as non-material by law or state regulation.

There is a state law that expressly references the disclosure of information related to ghosts and other stigmatizing events. Section ¤55-524 (Virginia Residential Property Disclosure Act) of the Code of Virginia states the following:
A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter or any other statute or regulation, no cause of action shall arise against an owner or a real estate licensee for failure to disclose that an occupant of the subject real property, whether or not such real property is subject to this chapter, was afflicted with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) or that the real property was the site of:

1. An act or occurrence which had no effect on the physical structure of the real property, its physical environment, or the improvements located thereon; or

2. A homicide, felony, or suicide.

Virginia's Seller Disclosure law defines stigmatizing events (such as ghosts, murders, etc.) that had no material effect on the property as non-material. Standard of Practice 2-5, combined with this disclosure law, releases Virginia's REALTORS® from the obligation of disclosing stigmatizing events.

Although you are not obligated to affirmatively disclose this information, you are still required under Article 1 of the Code of Ethics and state law (¤ 54.1-2131 B) to be honest with all prospective buyers. If the buyer in this case had directly asked about the presence of ghosts, the listing agent would be prohibited from providing any false responses to this question.

When listing agents ask for my advice on how to respond to such a direct question, I recommend avoiding the question. I recommend the following truthful but evasive response: "Ghosts, suicides or alien abductions are defined as non-material under state law, and agents are advised to avoid discussing non-material facts that stigmatize a property." It is important to avoid providing any answers that can be viewed as denying the existence of ghosts in this situation because that could open up a dispute over the honesty of such answers.

Many buyers become very upset when they learn that agents do not have an obligation to disclose the fact that the house is haunted. The buyers eventually will discover the issue, probably the first time they meet the neighbors. Please react professionally if a buyer becomes upset. It may help defuse or refocus their anger if you refer them to the statutes referenced above or provide them with a copy of this article. You also can refer their questions and concerns to the Professional Services Department if you need any help explaining this information to irate buyers. However, no matter how angry the buyers get, please don't tell them to "call Ghostbustersª" if they want to take care of the ghosts. That one I did not make up, though I really wish I had.

§ 55-524. Actions under this chapter.

A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter or any other statute or regulation, no cause of action shall arise against an owner or a real estate licensee for failure to disclose that an occupant of the subject real property, whether or not such real property is subject to this chapter, was afflicted with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) or that the real property was the site of:

1. An act or occurrence which had no effect on the physical structure of the real property, its physical environment, or the improvements located thereon; or

2. A homicide, felony, or suicide.

B. The purchaser's remedies hereunder for failure of an owner to comply with the provisions of this chapter are as follows:

1. If the owner fails to provide the disclosure statement required by this chapter, the contract may be terminated subject to the provisions of subsection B of § 55-520.

2. In the event the owner fails to provide the disclosure required by § 55-519.1, or the owner misrepresents, willfully or otherwise, the information required in such disclosure, except as result of information provided by an officer or employee of the locality in which the property is located, the purchaser may maintain an action to recover his actual damages suffered as the result of such violation. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subdivision, no purchaser of residential real property located in a noise zone designated on the official zoning map of the locality as having a day-night average sound level of less than 65 decibels shall have a right to maintain an action for damages pursuant to this section.

C. Any action brought under this subsection shall be commenced within one year of the date the purchaser received the disclosure statement. If no disclosure statement was delivered to the purchaser, an action shall be commenced within one year of the date of settlement if by sale, or occupancy if by lease with an option to purchase.

Nothing contained herein shall prevent a purchaser from pursuing any remedies at law or equity otherwise available against an owner in the event of an owner's intentional or willful misrepresentation of the condition of the subject property.

yDpGF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLOSURE
> DO YOU HAVE TO DISCLOSE THAT A HOUSE IS HAUNTED?
> Question
> An agent gets a call from a prospective client and
> schedules an appointment to make a listing
> presentation. During the listing presentation, a
> rather desperate seller informs the agent that her
> family wants to sell the house as soon as
> possible. The seller explains that a ghost is
> haunting their house. The seller's family is so
> distraught that they have moved out of the house
> and are staying with friends in the area. The
> seller explains that she wants a quick sale
> regardless of the price.
>
> The listing agent admits that this sounds "a
> little wild." However, the agent takes the listing
> and begins marketing the property at the price set
> by her client. The listing is entered into the
> Multiple Listing System and an open house is
> scheduled for the weekend. During the open house a
> young man with a scruffy appearance enters the
> property and asks the listing agent for a tour.
> After taking the prospective buyer around the
> house the listing agent asks for the sale.
> Unfortunately, she gets a rather disconcerting
> answer.
>
> "Yes, my dog Scooby-Dooª will love this place. I
> will give the seller whatever they want if they
> will let us move in right away. Scooby doesn't
> like the spooky mansion where we currently live
> because it is haunted by a ghost. We want to live
> in a nice, quiet home with no ghosts."
>
> Now the listing agent wants to know if she was
> obligated to disclose the information about the
> ghost to the prospective buyer.
>
> Answer
> First, let me admit that I made up the part about
> Scooby-Doo. Unfortunately, the rest of this is
> frighteningly true, though a few details from
> multiple calls have been combined and altered to
> protect the identities of those involved.
>
> Second, some people may believe in ghosts and
> other people may be skeptical. However, in the
> spirit of Halloween and for purely educational
> purposes, let's just skip the question of "Do
> ghosts exist?" and focus on the ethical issues
> involved.
>
> Article 2 of the Code of Ethics and Standards of
> Practice does prohibit REALTORS®from
> exaggerating, misrepresenting or concealing
> pertinent facts relating to the property or the
> transaction. Standard of Practice 2-1 clarifies
> the article by stating that REALTORS®are only
> obligated to discover adverse factors reasonably
> apparent to someone with expertise in those areas
> required by their real estate license. Please note
> that this obligation goes beyond REALTORS®¨'
> normal, legal obligation to disclose "É all
> material adverse facts pertaining to the physical
> condition of the property which are actually known
> by the licensee" (Code of Virginia ¤ 54.1-2131).
>
> Appendix II to Part Four of the Code of Ethics and
> Arbitration Manual states, "Absent a legal
> prohibition, any material fact that could affect a
> reasonable purchaser's decision to purchase, or
> the price that a purchaser might pay, should be
> disclosed as required by Standard of Practice 2-1
> if known by the REALTOR®, again, unless
> prohibited by law or regulation." This is
> supported by Standard of Practice 2-5, which
> states, "Factors defined as 'non-material' by law
> or regulation or which are expressly referenced in
> law or regulation as not being subject to
> disclosure are considered not 'pertinent' for the
> purposes of Article 2." This limits the scope of
> Article 2 by exempting any factors that are
> defined as non-material by law or state
> regulation.
>
> There is a state law that expressly references the
> disclosure of information related to ghosts and
> other stigmatizing events. Section ¤55-524
> (Virginia Residential Property Disclosure Act) of
> the Code of Virginia states the following:
> A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this
> chapter or any other statute or regulation, no
> cause of action shall arise against an owner or a
> real estate licensee for failure to disclose that
> an occupant of the subject real property, whether
> or not such real property is subject to this
> chapter, was afflicted with human immunodeficiency
> virus (HIV) or that the real property was the site
> of:
>
> 1. An act or occurrence which had no effect on the
> physical structure of the real property, its
> physical environment, or the improvements located
> thereon; or
>
> 2. A homicide, felony, or suicide.
>
> Virginia's Seller Disclosure law defines
> stigmatizing events (such as ghosts, murders,
> etc.) that had no material effect on the property
> as non-material. Standard of Practice 2-5,
> combined with this disclosure law, releases
> Virginia's REALTORS® from the obligation of
> disclosing stigmatizing events.
>
> Although you are not obligated to affirmatively
> disclose this information, you are still required
> under Article 1 of the Code of Ethics and state
> law (¤ 54.1-2131 B) to be honest with all
> prospective buyers. If the buyer in this case had
> directly asked about the presence of ghosts, the
> listing agent would be prohibited from providing
> any false responses to this question.
>
> When listing agents ask for my advice on how to
> respond to such a direct question, I recommend
> avoiding the question. I recommend the following
> truthful but evasive response: "Ghosts, suicides
> or alien abductions are defined as non-material
> under state law, and agents are advised to avoid
> discussing non-material facts that stigmatize a
> property." It is important to avoid providing any
> answers that can be viewed as denying the
> existence of ghosts in this situation because that
> could open up a dispute over the honesty of such
> answers.
>
> Many buyers become very upset when they learn that
> agents do not have an obligation to disclose the
> fact that the house is haunted. The buyers
> eventually will discover the issue, probably the
> first time they meet the neighbors. Please react
> professionally if a buyer becomes upset. It may
> help defuse or refocus their anger if you refer
> them to the statutes referenced above or provide
> them with a copy of this article. You also can
> refer their questions and concerns to the
> Professional Services Department if you need any
> help explaining this information to irate buyers.
> However, no matter how angry the buyers get,
> please don't tell them to "call Ghostbustersª" if
> they want to take care of the ghosts. That one I
> did not make up, though I really wish I had.
>
> § 55-524. Actions under this chapter.
>
> A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this
> chapter or any other statute or regulation, no
> cause of action shall arise against an owner or a
> real estate licensee for failure to disclose that
> an occupant of the subject real property, whether
> or not such real property is subject to this
> chapter, was afflicted with human immunodeficiency
> virus (HIV) or that the real property was the site
> of:
>
> 1. An act or occurrence which had no effect on the
> physical structure of the real property, its
> physical environment, or the improvements located
> thereon; or
>
> 2. A homicide, felony, or suicide.
>
> B. The purchaser's remedies hereunder for failure
> of an owner to comply with the provisions of this
> chapter are as follows:
>
> 1. If the owner fails to provide the disclosure
> statement required by this chapter, the contract
> may be terminated subject to the provisions of
> subsection B of § 55-520.
>
> 2. In the event the owner fails to provide the
> disclosure required by § 55-519.1, or the owner
> misrepresents, willfully or otherwise, the
> information required in such disclosure, except as
> result of information provided by an officer or
> employee of the locality in which the property is
> located, the purchaser may maintain an action to
> recover his actual damages suffered as the result
> of such violation. Notwithstanding the provisions
> of this subdivision, no purchaser of residential
> real property located in a noise zone designated
> on the official zoning map of the locality as
> having a day-night average sound level of less
> than 65 decibels shall have a right to maintain an
> action for damages pursuant to this section.
>
> C. Any action brought under this subsection shall
> be commenced within one year of the date the
> purchaser received the disclosure statement. If no
> disclosure statement was delivered to the
> purchaser, an action shall be commenced within one
> year of the date of settlement if by sale, or
> occupancy if by lease with an option to purchase.
>
> Nothing contained herein shall prevent a purchaser
> from pursuing any remedies at law or equity
> otherwise available against an owner in the event
> of an owner's intentional or willful
> misrepresentation of the condition of the subject
> property.

Thanks for posting this, I understand it alot better. I still feel like the new buyer is getting shafted and that the law should be modified to provide a loophole to allow the new owner to sue the old one in certain conditions.

Ive been a commercial agent for decades and I did think you had to disclose stigma. I have always been a buyer/tenant rep so I never had the obligation to hide/disclose such stigma but I did think you had to. Turns out it is all based on the physical state/effect on the property.

Anyone handling a property with a gruesome past would have to be especially careful and basically keep their mouth shut. And this is why I find being a buyer/tenant rep satisfying - in most typical real estate transactions only the seller/lessor has representation. The buyer is referred to as the 'customer' not a client. All fiduciary duty is to the owner.

Even if you bring 'your own' agent to a showing, unless you have a written agreement stating that they are your fiduciary, they are the sellers agent not yours. Showing agents (as opposed to listing agents) are agents of the seller no matter how much you like driving around with them. If you have an agent showing you properties know they work for the owner.

This law is a perfect example that, while they have to treat you 'fairly' they work for the owner. Your agent would be duty-bound to remain silent about the fact the dream house they are showing you and you are about to buy was the site of a family murder/suicide where men women and children were slaughtered and rotted.

I think a buyer can make the case that they were defrauded if they were to purchase a home where something happened in it (like say the Amityville Horror). Can't I make a legal argument in court that I was hurt by this lack of information (if I didn't know the history of the house (because the owner or the agent didn't tell me) or I couldn't find anything about in my own research?

Real estate agents have said that they cannot by their professional code of ethics divulge anything about the house's past residents, usage for criminal purposes, or neighborhood's past residents, crime, ethnic make-up, etc. There are on-line databases where you can research all of this yourself, such as the crime stats; www.NeighborhoodScout.com, www.inman.com/.../neighborhood-information... website, etc. For specific evidence about the house, you can talk to long-term neighbors, library newspapers from past years for the area, etc. It is a lot of work, but there are also people that make their living by researching such things for prospective buyers.

Forget one murder, how about 2 different murders over 10 years?

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Homicide-House-on-the-Market-in-Silver-Spring-122627324.html

The correct term is "stigmatized home". If an Agent has knowledge of a horrific event took place in a residence, they are not obliged to divulge this information to a potential purchaser.

Charge people to come over and do ghost hunts.

should ghost not be disclosed and you can prove it then contract null & void

put it in contract clause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> should ghost not be disclosed and you can prove it
> then contract null & void


You know the OP has got to be one of those paranoid goppers

Come on...this house should have been demolished, along with all the others out there with mass murders, mass suicides etc. I am definitely no liberal, but no one should have to live in a serial murders house - rented out by his mother no less (makes it creepier for some reason). Housing money or no, it's inhumane to hold this woman to her lease and she should have been notified (legal or not).

Be human people. This is wrong any way you look at it.

Want to buy a haunted house?
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/mortgages/want-to-buy-a-haunted-house--1.aspx

Oh, no, not the attic. Anywhere but the attic. But the visitors insisted on going in.

The house's owner reluctantly opened the attic door and stepped aside as her two visitors trod into the gloomy room.

"All I know is we walked into the attic with her, and it's cavernous, and we were just looking hard, and, I don't know, this feeling came over me -- this warm feeling," Craig Schaible says. "I looked at my wife and she felt it, too."

Craig and Yvonne Schaible were thinking of buying this 111-year-old Victorian house on a tree-shaded street in Fanwood, N.J. The owner had grown up in the house and was trying to sell it, now that her parents had died. But an uncanny presence threatened to scare away buyers and drive down the house's value. The owner had not yet told the Schaibles about the mysterious sounds and frightful sights that unnerved her -- and which terrified her husband.

"We were walking out of the attic," Schaible says, "and my wife said, 'Any ghosts?' And the lady said, 'Well, yeah.' We were like, 'Cool, tell us about it.'"

The owner didn't go into much detail. She said people had seen and heard things over the years. "We said 'We kind of think of it as a positive thing,'" Schaible says. The Schaibles decided then and there to buy the eight-bedroom house, a fixer-upper built in 1890. They paid the asking price.

Ghosts can add value
If you think ghost stories make a house less valuable, you might be right -- most of the time. But not all the time. The Schaibles weren't your typical house buyers. They were living in a two-bedroom town house and were looking for a big, old Victorian house to restore. As soon as they stepped through the pair of 8-foot-high front doors, they knew this house was the one. Furthermore, the Schaibles are famous among their friends for elaborate Halloween bashes they hold every other year, complete with caskets in the rooms and a hand sticking out of the punch bowl.
The ghost stories about the house "made it completely more valuable," Schaible says. "Would I pay more money for a haunted house? No. The decision to buy the house was based on the house itself." But, he adds, the spectral tales "juiced it up. The fact that the Halloween people bought a haunted house was so funny -- too perfect."

Six weeks elapsed from the time the Schaibles made an offer until possession. During that time in spring 2001, the seller's husband stayed behind to ease the transfer of ownership. The Schaibles loosened his tongue with a few beers one night, and the man told them about apparitions he had seen and described a time when he heard his wife calling from the basement. He went downstairs, but no one was there. Then he heard a disembodied voice chuckling in his ear. "According to him and his wife, this thing was picking on him," Schaible says.

"I'm skeptical," Schaible says. "I'm not saying I necessarily believed it. Everyone has their perception of things."

Then the Schaibles moved in.

advertisementThe second night, it became clear that "there was something in the house that wanted to make itself known to me," Schaible says.

They were moving in, and stuff was all over the place, including a Civil War rifle that was resting against a wall in a 12-foot-wide hallway. In the middle of the night, Schaible got up, "and this very heavy rifle launched across the hall and landed at my feet." It flew about 8 feet, he estimates. He looked for loose floorboards or anything else that could have caused the mysterious occurrence, but he couldn't find an explanation.


So Schaible went downstairs into the kitchen and delivered a spirited monologue. "I said, 'Hey, I live here, I pay the mortgage, and I don't need this scaring me out of my mind in the middle of the night.' I ranted for about an hour or so and sat around for a while."

After that, the Schaibles occasionally heard voices and glimpsed figures, but there were no scares in the middle of the night. Incidents have become less frequent as restoration work has progressed.

Cindy Neivert, the real estate agent with Burgdorff ERA who brought the house to the Schaibles' attention, says the presence of "ghosties" can add to or detract from a home's value. It depends on the buyer and what the house will be used for. Someone who wants to convert a big house into a bed-and-breakfast inn might see marketing value in ghost stories as long as they're not too scary. Adventurous buyers such as the Schaibles might not be spooked. But ghost stories might scare away the squeamish.

Neivert is kind of glad that the owner told the Schaibles about the haunting because she wasn't sure if she would have been required to disclose it. "I know you have to disclose if someone was murdered in a house," she says. "As far as a poltergeist or a ghostie, I don't really know."

Bad karma can depress price
There was no history of violence in the house that the Schaibles bought, and that's good because murder or suicide definitely can depress values. Neivert and her husband once considered buying a house where someone had committed suicide. "We were on the edge of yes and no, and it pushed us over the side of saying no," she says.
Infamous deaths can make houses especially hard to sell. Think of Nicole Brown Simpson's town house; or the house where 39 members of Heaven's Gate killed themselves to join a spaceship hiding behind the Comet Hale-Bopp; or the house where Charles Manson's followers killed actress Sharon Tate and four other people.

Randall Bell, a property appraiser for Bell Anderson & Sanders of Laguna Beach, Calif., specializes in "stigmatized" properties. Often a property is stigmatized because of an environmental or structural problem -- earthquake damage, contaminated soil, a faulty foundation. But some properties are stigmatized because something horrible happened there.

Bell says it took 2½ years for Nicole Brown Simpson's house to sell in a neighborhood where it otherwise would have been sold within three months. It eventually sold at a deep discount. The buyer simply was looking for a good deal. Following Bell's advice, the buyer renovated the facade. Afterward, Bell visited the house "and he had changed it so much that at first I didn't recognize the property."

The house where members of Heaven's Gate committed mass suicide "was heavily stigmatized," Bell says. "The owner tried very hard to sell it. Eventually he gave it back to the bank, and the bank sold it at a very deep discount. The property has since been bulldozed and may be redeveloped in the future." If that happens, it will have a different address. Neighbors changed the name of the street.

The Manson Family's first murder spree, one of the most infamous crimes of the 20th century, happened in July 1969 at the home of Sharon Tate and movie director Roman Polanski. The California bungalow in Benedict Canyon was on a prized site in Beverly Hills, with a stunning view of Los Angeles. "It sold in the early '90s for full value," Bell says. "The new owner bought it and tore it down and built a 10,000-square-foot Mediterranean mansion. That showed that no matter how heinous the crime, eventually, things can return back to normal. It can take many years."

What about ghosts? "If it ties to a real event, where there was a murder in the house, that's a whole world apart from a ghost that has been there since the 1800s," Bell says. "If it's a fun story, it probably has little effect on the house or might bring a small premium."

The Schaibles' house in New Jersey has a fun story. People ask Schaible if he's scared. "No," he says. "You have to live there to understand. It's not like a rattling of chains go bump in the night." Apparitions happen fleetingly, "so fast that it's over before you know it."

His dream is to grow old in the house -- just as all the previous owners did.

I don't care to know if there was a past murder in the house. The only thing that would turn me away is if the previous owner was a nigger.