I've seen plenty of teenagers out this summer cutting the neighbors' grass (presumably for cash).

Do these teens have to report their cash earnings to the IRS each year? I'm assuming they don't have a sole proprietorship/LLC/etc. established for this work.

Also, what if these services are provided for a fundraiser (similar to a car wash)?

Please move far,far away from here,like now.

They find him burning his asshole on fire..

What happened they ask? "He was pissed that the kid maybe was not paying taxes on his lawn mowing income, so he snatched the gas can and it spilled on him and he forgot he had a cigarette dangling from his lips"..

"Fuck him Phil, Let him burn"

Cutting Grass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've seen plenty of teenagers out this summer
> cutting the neighbors' grass (presumably for
> cash).
>
> Do these teens have to report their cash earnings
> to the IRS each year? I'm assuming they don't
> have a sole proprietorship/LLC/etc. established
> for this work.
>
> Also, what if these services are provided for a
> fundraiser (similar to a car wash)?

I think the way it works is if their income is below a certain number, they don't pay any taxes and don't even have to file a tax return. Cutting grass for the summer probably will apply to this.

Fundraising car washes or any other venture raising money for and by children in public school tend to go either to the parent-run non-profit (who then have the right to go out to dinner at Maggiano's with the money if they damn well please and they DO) or to the public school for safekeeping in an open, public account where you can monitor what is going on. Hopefully.

Fundraising car washes and things for other clubs and things go to a parent-run non-profit (who then can make reservations at Maggiano's) or to a school club account, or to a group of people who are nothing more than a group of people who are having a bunch of kids wash cars for money.

Buyer beware.

Non-profits are supposed to register with the Department of Consumer Affairs and be able to prove it to anybody who asks. That at least allows you an avenue to file a complaint if you run into problems, problematic as dealing with the government is.

fyifyifyi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fundraising car washes or any other venture
> raising money for and by children in public school
> tend to go either to the parent-run non-profit
> (who then have the right to go out to dinner at
> Maggiano's with the money if they damn well please
> and they DO)...

That's freaking TAX FRAUD, you worthless moron.

> ...or to the public school for safekeeping in an
> open, public account where you can monitor what is
> going on. Hopefully.

More stupid drivel. Funds raised are deposited to and remain in the accounts of the registered charitable organization that sponsored the event until such time as they are disbursed for approved purposes. Ignorant big-mouths apparently don't know that. The sponsoring 501(c)(3) -- which is what these org's are -- then files annual reports with the IRS detailing such receipts and outlays during the year.

> Non-profits are supposed to register with the
> Department of Consumer Affairs and be able to
> prove it to anybody who asks. That at least allows
> you an avenue to file a complaint if you run into
> problems, problematic as dealing with the
> government is.

More uninformed garbage. Charitable (and other) solicitors need to register. In this case, either with the state (Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services) or the county (Regulation and Licensing Branch). Non-profits do not otherwise need to register with anyone but the IRS.

Yeah, they pay taxes like the illegals at the Centreville library.

Hammer of Thor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fyifyifyi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fundraising car washes or any other venture
> > raising money for and by children in public
> school
> > tend to go either to the parent-run non-profit
> > (who then have the right to go out to dinner at
> > Maggiano's with the money if they damn well
> please
> > and they DO)...
>
> That's freaking TAX FRAUD, you worthless moron.
>
> > ...or to the public school for safekeeping in an
>
> > open, public account where you can monitor what
> is
> > going on. Hopefully.
>
> More stupid drivel. Funds raised are deposited to
> and remain in the accounts of the registered
> charitable organization that sponsored the event
> until such time as they are disbursed for approved
> purposes. Ignorant big-mouths apparently don't
> know that. The sponsoring 501(c)(3) -- which is
> what these org's are -- then files annual reports
> with the IRS detailing such receipts and outlays
> during the year.
>
> > Non-profits are supposed to register with the
> > Department of Consumer Affairs and be able to
> > prove it to anybody who asks. That at least
> allows
> > you an avenue to file a complaint if you run
> into
> > problems, problematic as dealing with the
> > government is.
>
> More uninformed garbage. Charitable (and other)
> solicitors need to register. In this case, either
> with the state (Department of Agriculture and
> Consumer Services) or the county (Regulation and
> Licensing Branch). Non-profits do not otherwise
> need to register with anyone but the IRS.

Well done!

Better call the IRS if you see kids selling lemonade too. Send in the SWAT team and lock'em up.

Cutting Grass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've seen plenty of teenagers out this summer
> cutting the neighbors' grass (presumably for cash).
> Do these teens have to report their cash earnings to
> the IRS each year? I'm assuming they don't have a
> sole proprietorship/LLC/etc. established for this work.

Mowing lawns on your own makes you an independent contractor. You will owe income and self-employment taxes if the amounts you earn are sufficient. If you work solo, that's apt to be $400. If you work through a company, it'll be $600.
The same applies to leaf-raking, snow-shoveling, pet- and baby-sitting, dog- and wolverine-walking, and all sorts of similar such functions.

Joe B. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, they pay taxes like the illegals at the
> Centreville library.

Whether legal or not, non-citizens pay the same taxes you do. You should probably pay extra for being so stupid, but we haven't passed that law yet.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe B. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah, they pay taxes like the illegals at the
> > Centreville library.
>
> Whether legal or not, non-citizens pay the same
> taxes you do. You should probably pay extra for
> being so stupid, but we haven't passed that law
> yet.

Sure they do. And without exception every illegal immigrant is "hard working". How much does the DNC pay you to post on here?

Bah Humbug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Better call the IRS if you see kids selling
> lemonade too. Send in the SWAT team and lock'em up.

There is nothing special about sales of lemonade. The same tax obligations will apply if you surpass established income threshholds. Appearing in long-ago Norman Rockwell paintings is not enough to excuse obligations under the law.
.
Attachments:

When was the last time you actually saw a teenager cutting the grass?
As a matter of fact, when was the last time you saw a teenager doing anything?

You wish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sure they do.

Unfortunately, you don't know anything about it so you make completely foolish statements. To protect themselves, employers have to act in every way as if you were legal, even if they know or suspect that you are not. That means you are treated just like everyone else, and that means deductions for income, payroll, unemployment, and workers comp taxes. Obviously, everyone pays sales and excise taxes, and whether they own or rent, non-citizens pay property taxes just as you do. Grow up, tiny-brain.

> And without exception every illegal immigrant is "hard working".

Not all, but most actually are. They get up early and work long hours at difficult jobs for low pay. You for instance couldn't hack it.

> How much does the DNC pay you to post on here?

$0.00. Think I should ask for a raise?

Of course they do. Just like I'm sure you bother to pay your "use tax" each year for stuff you bought online for which you weren't charged sales tax, LOL.

What? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When was the last time you actually saw a teenager
> cutting the grass? As a matter of fact, when was
> the last time you saw a teenager doing anything?

Yeah, today's teenagers are lazy and the old people are greedy. Mitt Romney told me so. Bunch of 47%-ers.

Munchma Qutchi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course they do. Just like I'm sure you bother
> to pay your "use tax" each year for stuff you
> bought online for which you weren't charged sales
> tax, LOL.

I have, but I don't routinely pay that and neither does any appreciable portion of anyone else. Just as most small-time teenages lawn-mowers, baby-sitters, and dog-walkers don't file. However, all those immigrants you hate so much in your adorable but oh so Pavlovian way don't have any way out of paying taxes. They pay them all, just as you do. Chew on that for a while, goob.

For a qualifying dependent child, there are four basic tests, any one of which requires a federal income tax return to be filed for a given year:

The child has unearned income (from investment interest, gains, and so on) above $1,000.
The child has earned income above $6,550.
Gross income is greater than the larger of $1,000 or earned income (up to $6,200) plus $350.
Net earnings from self-employment are $400 or more.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You wish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sure they do.
>
> Unfortunately, you don't know anything about it so
> you make completely foolish statements. To
> protect themselves, employers have to act in every
> way as if you were legal, even if they know or
> suspect that you are not. That means you are
> treated just like everyone else, and that means
> deductions for income, payroll, unemployment, and
> workers comp taxes.

Not when they're paid in cash and none of that applies.

lookitup Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For a qualifying dependent child, there are four
> basic tests, any one of which requires a federal
> income tax return to be filed for a given year:
>
> The child has unearned income (from investment
> interest, gains, and so on) above $1,000.
> The child has earned income above $6,550.
> Gross income is greater than the larger of $1,000
> or earned income (up to $6,200) plus $350.
> Net earnings from self-employment are $400 or
> more.

Wouldn't have to go far. That's what's posted above.

Johnny Cash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not when they're paid in cash and none of that applies.

Get a life, dumbo. These awful people principally work in restaurants and other food service operations, construction companies, maintenance companies, and personal services firms. None of these businesses wants to be flagged by the IRS. The more they suspect that some of their employees might be illegal, the more they need plausible deniability -- that is, evidence that they honestly believed every single employee was legal. Paying anyone on an off-the-books, cash-under-the-table basis is like a signed confession. So nobody with any sense does that. Only stupid people do that, and only even more stupid people believe that business people are actually that stupid.

Here's the more likely scenario---they pay them partly in cash and partly with a check (it's about half and half). This is what I'm told by those who work this way.

on the topic. Very, very few true "illegals" work in stable "paycheck" jobs - there is a huge cash only underground economy that many live within - and live quite well, thank you very much.
Claiming they "pay" some sort of "taxes" is akin to the idiocy that led to Greece's economic collapse - too many services, too few taxpayers.

Welcome to economic reality, dumbass.

knownothing. Now fuck off.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Cash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not when they're paid in cash and none of that
> applies.
>
> Get a life, dumbo. These awful people principally
> work in restaurants and other food service
> operations, construction companies, maintenance
> companies, and personal services firms. None of
> these businesses wants to be flagged by the IRS.
> The more they suspect that some of their employees
> might be illegal, the more they need plausible
> deniability -- that is, evidence that they
> honestly believed every single employee was legal.
> Paying anyone on an off-the-books,
> cash-under-the-table basis is like a signed
> confession. So nobody with any sense does that.
> Only stupid people do that, and only even more
> stupid people believe that business people are
> actually that stupid.

Didn't say that they were awful people. I said that they're paid in cash. Which many are. If you don't know that, then you must not know anyone in the trades.

Johnny Cash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't say that they were awful people. I said
> that they're paid in cash. Which many are.

For many and good reasons that you appear to be too stupid to understand, employers make every effort to leave a path of immigration righteousness behind them. This means treating everyone the same.

> If you don't know that, then you must not know anyone
> in the trades.

LOL! "The trades" are quite a bit broader than however many day-laborer wannabes were hanging out in front of the 7/11 this morning. Every significant employer has taxes to withhold and remit and taxes of his own to file. The only way to be safe from IRS computers searching for inconsistencies is not to have any. Obviously, you are not actually involved in any of this in even the slightest sort of way.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You wish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sure they do.
>
> Unfortunately, you don't know anything about it so
> you make completely foolish statements. To
> protect themselves, employers have to act in every
> way as if you were legal, even if they know or
> suspect that you are not. That means you are
> treated just like everyone else, and that means
> deductions for income, payroll, unemployment, and
> workers comp taxes. Obviously, everyone pays
> sales and excise taxes, and whether they own or
> rent, non-citizens pay property taxes just as you
> do. Grow up, tiny-brain.
>
> > And without exception every illegal immigrant is
> "hard working".
>
> Not all, but most actually are. They get up early
> and work long hours at difficult jobs for low pay.
> You for instance couldn't hack it.
>
> > How much does the DNC pay you to post on here?
>
> $0.00. Think I should ask for a raise?

First, if you're hiring illegals chances are you're not using a legitimate payroll system.

Second, I paid my way through college working for a tree service so don't tell me what I can or can't hack. Unlike you liberal pajamas boys I have never considered myself too good for menial labor.

Go back to mummy's basement you little pussy.

Getlostloser Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please move far,far away from here,like now.

First poster said it best. You are a creep. Let me guess teenagers making a little dough and not paying taxes on it is SO morally reprehensible to you. You would like to create a non-profit,have them work for free and pocket a nice cut for yourself. ASSHOLE !

should they ?

dick weed ?

fairfax county executives have ties with lawn care businesses

that's why they spent (spend) shitloads of time and money on landscaping packages

they run illegal immigrants and that is not reported by fairfax county executives

----------------------
screw off fx co execs

You wish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
First, if you're hiring illegals chances are
> you're not using a legitimate payroll system.

If you are such a dumbfuck as to SET OUT to hire illegals, you deserve all the fines and jail time you'll soon enough be getting. The idea is to be running an honest business, but you can't be sure of the citizenship status of everyone, so you make an absolute show out of how you really did think every single one of them was legal, and that means treating everybody the same way. Sorry you are just plain to stupid to understand such basic facts about 21st century business.

> Second, I paid my way through college working for
> a tree service so don't tell me what I can or
> can't hack.

Oh, a tree service. Put all those little cards in people's doors and mailboxes, did you?

> Unlike you liberal pajamas boys I have never
> considered myself too good for menial labor.

Let's see, I've been a dish-machine operator, a fork-lift dude, a factory-line worker, a chopper (that's a lawn mower jockey to you wussies) an armored car driver, and a building custodian. A few other things too, but it's hard to remember them all since the crane fell on me.

> Go back to mummy's basement you little pussy.

Oooh, show us your tats, Bruiser.

Why would anybody pick on some teenagers with summer jobs? Even the most anal retentive, obsessive-compulsive tax auditor wouldn't care about this.

Homeowner pays Teenager $20 to mow the yard;
Teenager Goes out and SPENDS $20;
Teenager PAYS 5.3% TAX and perhaps 9.8% depending upon what he/she spent it on;
TAXES GET PAID.

NOW - If Teenager does 10 yards a week (HAHA) and makes $200 a week (lets say for 30 weeks and makes $6,000 a year) THEN he/she STILL doesn't have to file - as the requirement is if your earned income was more than $6,100.

So needless to say, most teenagers are good.

Just for fun - Illegal gets paid $100 for working his/her ass off in your yard
Illegal goes out and feeds his family and SPENDS $100
Illegal pays $5.30 (or more) in TAXES
Taxes get paid.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Cash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't say that they were awful people. I said
> > that they're paid in cash. Which many are.
>
> For many and good reasons that you appear to be
> too stupid to understand, employers make every
> effort to leave a path of immigration
> righteousness behind them. This means treating
> everyone the same.
>
> > If you don't know that, then you must not know
> anyone
> > in the trades.
>
> LOL! "The trades" are quite a bit broader than
> however many day-laborer wannabes were hanging out
> in front of the 7/11 this morning. Every
> significant employer has taxes to withhold and
> remit and taxes of his own to file. The only way
> to be safe from IRS computers searching for
> inconsistencies is not to have any. Obviously,
> you are not actually involved in any of this in
> even the slightest sort of way.


The construction industry in large part doesn't operate on the basis of significant employers. It runs on many smaller independent subcontractors and temporary seasonal and other short term labor. It's also where large numbers of undocumented workers are based on job skills.

You're trying to deny the obvious in this case. Don't need to rely on what I say. You can look to the trade unions, worker's rights groups, tax offices or many others on all sides to independently confirm.

Johnny Cash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The construction industry in large part doesn't
> operate on the basis of significant employers.

Your definition of "significant" may be just as fucked up as the rest of your ignorant babble.

> It runs on many smaller independent subcontractors
> and temporary seasonal and other short term labor.
> It's also where large numbers of undocumented
> workers are based on job skills.

Everyone knows where immigrants predominantly work, goober. I listed the most common industries above. The question is whether they pay the same taxes that you or I do. The answer to that question is yes, they do.

> You're trying to deny the obvious in this case.

I'm underscoring the obvious, which is that you're no better than a lost child here.

> Don't need to rely on what I say.

I would never.

> You can look to the trade unions, worker's rights
> groups, tax offices or many others on all sides to
> independently confirm.

All of whom would confirm that documented or not, immigrants pay the same taxes that everyone else does. All this mumbo-jumbo about off-the-books, under-the-table cash payments is just another bunch of goober rot and nonsense.

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would anybody pick on some teenagers with
> summer jobs? Even the most anal retentive,
> obsessive-compulsive tax auditor wouldn't care
> about this.

True, but that doesn't affect what the laws state, and if you become visible to the IRS, they are apt to stop by with some interest in making an example of you.

More to the point, it can be advantageous for a dependent child to be filing a 1040 in order to keep at least some income from being exposed to the parents' no doubt higher rates. The thing about filing is that when you do that, you have to do it honestly. If little Johnny is paying tax on a college fund so that Mom and Dad don't have to, then omission of other income can quickly become a problem. One that comes with steep penalties and interest.

Hammer of Thor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fyifyifyi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fundraising car washes or any other venture
> > raising money for and by children in public
> school
> > tend to go either to the parent-run non-profit
> > (who then have the right to go out to dinner at
> > Maggiano's with the money if they damn well
> please
> > and they DO)...
>
> That's freaking TAX FRAUD, you worthless moron.
>
> > ...or to the public school for safekeeping in an
>
> > open, public account where you can monitor what
> is
> > going on. Hopefully.
>
> More stupid drivel. Funds raised are deposited to
> and remain in the accounts of the registered
> charitable organization that sponsored the event
> until such time as they are disbursed for approved
> purposes. Ignorant big-mouths apparently don't
> know that. The sponsoring 501(c)(3) -- which is
> what these org's are -- then files annual reports
> with the IRS detailing such receipts and outlays
> during the year.
>
> > Non-profits are supposed to register with the
> > Department of Consumer Affairs and be able to
> > prove it to anybody who asks. That at least
> allows
> > you an avenue to file a complaint if you run
> into
> > problems, problematic as dealing with the
> > government is.
>
> More uninformed garbage. Charitable (and other)
> solicitors need to register. In this case, either
> with the state (Department of Agriculture and
> Consumer Services) or the county (Regulation and
> Licensing Branch). Non-profits do not otherwise
> need to register with anyone but the IRS.

I was referring to non-profits who SOLICIT, since that was the situation at hand.

What are approved purchases can vary from group to group and are heavily dependent on the officers who hold the credit car and how straightforward they are with the parents.

I am actually very informed. You are clueless as to how some of these parents groups are run. Many of them don't have any insurance on the funds or shitty policies or think they are insured but aren't because somebody forgot to pay the bill or do what the policy requires to protect their funds. Some of the parents have sticky fingers and it isn't until money is missing that people realize their insurance isn't worth the paper it is printed on and everybody is totally completely screwed.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Cash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The construction industry in large part doesn't
> > operate on the basis of significant employers.
>
>
> Your definition of "significant" may be just as
> fucked up as the rest of your ignorant babble.
>
> > It runs on many smaller independent
> subcontractors
> > and temporary seasonal and other short term
> labor.
> > It's also where large numbers of undocumented
> > workers are based on job skills.
>
> Everyone knows where immigrants predominantly
> work, goober. I listed the most common industries
> above. The question is whether they pay the same
> taxes that you or I do. The answer to that
> question is yes, they do.
>
> > You're trying to deny the obvious in this case.
>
>
> I'm underscoring the obvious, which is that you're
> no better than a lost child here.
>
> > Don't need to rely on what I say.
>
> I would never.
>
> > You can look to the trade unions, worker's
> rights
> > groups, tax offices or many others on all sides
> to
> > independently confirm.
>
> All of whom would confirm that documented or not,
> immigrants pay the same taxes that everyone else
> does. All this mumbo-jumbo about off-the-books,
> under-the-table cash payments is just another
> bunch of goober rot and nonsense.


Orly?

"[Workers Defense Project] has co-authored a report with the University of Texas, Austin, that examines working conditions in the Texas construction industry. For more than a year, WDP staff and University of Texas faculty canvassed Texas construction sites, surveying hundreds of workers and gathering information about pay, benefits, working conditions and employment and residency status."

"Rampant payroll fraud results in an estimated $54.5 million in lost unemployment insurance tax revenue and hundreds of millions more in federal income tax. With over 40% of the construction workforce misclassified as independent contractors or paid under the table, Texas – and the federal government – lose out on critical revenue."

"Our estimation is that there's $1.6 billion being lost in federal income taxes just from Texas alone," says the Workers Defense Project's Tzintzun. The report estimates that $7 billion in wages from nearly 400,000 illegally classified construction workers is going unreported in Texas each year, resulting in billions of dollars in revenue lost owing to institutionalized statewide payroll fraud."


http://www.workersdefense.org/Build%20a%20Better%20Texas_FINAL.pdf

If you don't believe me about the parent groups, do an internet search on Booster club/PTO/PTA embezzlement and you will see what happens in the worst of situations.

There was a situation recently with all FCPS Crew teams and the non-profit they all paid dues to. The lady in charge of the money took off with a huge amount over several years. She was the Goddess-they sang her praises-then she screwed over every parent and child involved in Crew in FCPS.

Navy Elementary PTO, Fort Belvoir Elementary PTO (this is still being investigated).

They work very hard but with the turnover every year and the use of untrained unscreened people it gets very shaky. Lots of these groups don't even bother filing their tax returns on a regular basis or do the quickie form.

Lela West of the Virginia Scholastic Rowing Association. Greedy stealing bitch.

What? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When was the last time you actually saw a teenager
> cutting the grass?
> As a matter of fact, when was the last time you
> saw a teenager doing anything?

This is a very valid point. They spend an incredible amount of time playing with their phones and walking in front of moving vehicles while doing so, etc. They are totally addicted to their electronic devices and are going to develop early arthritis in their thumbs for sure if they even live long enough.

Maybe this whole discussion is a moot point.

I do see a lot of teenagers lifeguarding and babysitting, though.

getlostconman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Getlostloser Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Please move far,far away from here,like now.
>
> First poster said it best. You are a creep. Let me
> guess teenagers making a little dough and not
> paying taxes on it is SO morally reprehensible to
> you. You would like to create a non-profit,have
> them work for free and pocket a nice cut for
> yourself. ASSHOLE !

The OP said nothing about reporting these situations to the IRS. Maybe they have a teenager that is interested in mowing lawns this summer? Also, what's the difference between teenagers making money and not paying income tax and adults making money and not paying income tax??

I gave up arguing with the IRS a long time ago. However, I think they have bigger fish to fry than pursuing a 16-year-old with a lawnmower who is doing something besides watching TV this summer.

fyifyifyi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was referring to non-profits who SOLICIT, since
> that was the situation at hand.

The laws cover all solicitation, dorko.

> What are approved purchases can vary from group to
> group and are heavily dependent on the officers
> who hold the credit car and how straightforward
> they are with the parents.

Stupid bullshit. The purposes that funds can be used for are defined in strict and narrow terms in the organization's charter. Each 501(c)(3) must remain entirely within those narrow bounds. You are just guessing at crap off the top of your uninformed and inexperienced teeny-weeny little head.

> I am actually very informed. You are clueless as
> to how some of these parents groups are run.

Load of crap. I've run 501(c)(3)'s for twenty years. How about you?

> Many of them don't have any insurance on the funds or
> shitty policies or think they are insured but
> aren't because somebody forgot to pay the bill or
> do what the policy requires to protect their
> funds.

Passbook savings accounts are insured, bozo. If you're keeping cash in a coffee can, you are not a 501(c)(3).

> Some of the parents have sticky fingers and
> it isn't until money is missing that people
> realize their insurance isn't worth the paper it
> is printed on and everybody is totally completely
> screwed.

All that anybody's realizing here is that you are a worthless asshole.

Johnny Cash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Goober Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> All this mumbo-jumbo about
> off-the-books,
> > under-the-table cash payments is just another
> > bunch of goober rot and nonsense.
>
>
> Orly?

Hey Goober is another partisan liberal hack who relies on nothing but dreams to support his idiotic stances. The hilarious thing is that he is more guilty of prejudices than the people that he calls prejudice.

hey asshole,
teens don't have to work around here..that is what mommy and daddy are for.
jerk!

and if they can screw the govt by not paying taxes...good for them!

Talking out of his ass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johnny Cash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey Goober Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > All this mumbo-jumbo about
> > off-the-books,
> > > under-the-table cash payments is just another
> > > bunch of goober rot and nonsense.
> >
> >
> > Orly?
>
> Hey Goober is another partisan liberal hack who
> relies on nothing but dreams to support his
> idiotic stances. The hilarious thing is that he is
> more guilty of prejudices than the people that he
> calls prejudice.


Nope, realistic and relying on the Workers Defense Project and the University of Texas, Austin.

Many more....


Off-the-Book Construction Jobs Soar in City, Study Shows

"An economic study set to be released today found widespread illegal practices in New York City's residential construction industry, estimating that one-fifth of the 82,000 workers who build housing in the city work off the books.

The study by the Fiscal Policy Institute, a nonprofit organization financed in part by unions, noted that while the volume of residential construction in New York City more than doubled from 2000 to 2005, official employment among residential construction companies rose just 16 percent over that period. An increasing amount of the additional construction work is being done by off-the-book workers.

The report said the underground use of workers was greatest in the construction of low- and moderate-income housing, and estimated that two-thirds of such construction took place in the underground economy...

The report says that 13,350 workers, nearly one-sixth of the city's residential building workers, were misclassified as independent contractors. Such misclassification, the report argued, foists costs, such as workers' compensation costs, onto other employers.

"As close as we can tell, $85 million to $126 million of costs are evaded by employers that pay people off the books and misclassify some employees as so-called independent contractors," Mr. Parrott said.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9407E3DA103FF936A25757C0A9619C8B63

Dear Thor-You seem to indicate that if a treasurer of a non-profit embezzles $150,000 the bank is going to replace all the money. Interesting theory.

You appear to be an idiot and a bully.

Does the guy who delivers your truckloads of bagel sandwiches to your workplace departmental Friday CATERED morning breakfast delivery pay taxes on that nice fat tip you leave him every (day)(week)(month)? Does the family in your neighborhood that provides the cheap(er) baby-sitting operation for cash only under the table pay any thing to the IRS? Have you looked in your neighborhood publications to see how many local kids are budding entrepreneurs as they truck along walking the neighborhood pooches 3 times a day/delivering newspapers/lawn work/snow shoveling etc.? Do you REALLY think they file a tax return, pay social security etc., out of their "meager" earnings?

Or maybe you can explain how someone whose only (official) job is driving food around the town to hungry workers can own 6 expensive cars, redo the insides of his house annually, pay off the contractors by pulling a big roll of bills out of his pocket, have wall-sized big screen TVs in every room of the house, sends his 7 kids to school in designer outfits all new each year, pay Fairfax County taxes on the house that he bought for cash (before the crash in 2008)...and on and on and on..if he really paid taxes on what he makes as a minimum waged worker? If you can figure out how to manifest all that money out of thin air, without having to ever tell anyone you have it, you can figure out whether or not their taxes are actually known about by the IRS much less are actually getting paid.

If you find someone who is a master of living off the grid and under the radar, you might wish to take some lessons from them (for cash payment, of course!). I know quite a few people who are doing that and have been for years. Most of them live out in the boonie-lands and mountains of Virginia and West Virginia, and they have a skill that is in demand enough that they can hire on as contractors for cash at a lower rate than the employer has to pay the regulars who get paid through the normal channels.

That's how many of the illegals can live so well while here. Cash is king still at some levels!

Who fucking cares if people doing shit work for shit pay aren't paying taxes? Small potatoes...

You should be more concerned about the people that make millions per year. Some are either cheating on their taxes or are lobbying to get laws passed that reduce their taxes way below their fair share.

I worked without reporting income for years. It is what kept me afloat and self sufficient. The way I see it, it prevented me from being yet another leech on the government. I just cut out the middle man.

Maybe that's an empty argument. I am white male and was single at the time. I wasn't getting anything from anybody.

> Nope, realistic and relying on the Workers Defense
> Project and the University of Texas, Austin. Many more....

Interesting then that the single study you chose to cite was published in 2007 and described conditions in one city during a now long-ago era when the flows of easy money and illegal immigrants were at all time highs. Interesting as well that in order to make them sound more impressive, the numbers for "off the books" workers had to be augmented to include those illegally reclassified from ordinary employees into independent contractors by fly-by-nighters and other lawbreaking employers. Breaking news: drug dealers don't collect sales tax either. Criminal elements seek to operate in the shadows and below the radar. But these do not qualify as significant employers. Even in boom times, they are a small and typically unstable group that operates on the fringes.

And the economic landscape of today (the time actually under discussion here) is of course quite different from the one imagined in your article. The tides of both easy money and abusable illegal immigrants have turned and dried up while the IRS has gotten sharper and expanded its tools. Employers hoping to be around for any length of time do not run separate off-the-books enterprises. Doing so invites investigation and prosecution. It is easier, cheaper, and safer simply to blend in by treating all the people you need in the same way, then basking quietly in the aura of plausible deniability that such a business plan provides.

Those are the facts in the real world. In the outlier bozo-land of the right-wing of course, exceptions to the rules are what define the rules, and those are all that really matter. It's all one great series of arguments from the outliers framed by people who don't understand the term to begin with. When 95% of something is one way and 5% is another, just keep hitting on examples taken from the 5% and pretend that the 95% doesn't exist. Classic stupid, unless of course you're just a liar from the get-go.

what????????????? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Thor-You seem to indicate that if a treasurer
> of a non-profit embezzles $150,000 the bank is
> going to replace all the money. Interesting
> theory. You appear to be an idiot and a bully.

So claims of parents doing whatever they want with funds raised by a local 501(c)(3) -- such as going off for what I assume you think would hav been a fine dinner at Maggiano's -- have now collapsed into a report that some guy once embezzled 150 grand from a charity somewhere. Go back to sleep, bozo. You were doing better during your own absence here.

Hospitalitytaxfree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's how many of the illegals can live so well
> while here. Cash is king still at some levels!

More really bad fiction. Illegals living high on the hog are all brain surgeons who overstayed a visa. The ones with dirty fingernails are barely getting by while living at the lower end of the spectrum. And of course, when bank records establish wealth at Level-A in one year and at Level-B in a subsequent year, and tax returns filed in the interim cannot explain the massive increase, you are going to get a call. Well, first a letter, actually. This has been going on since Al Capone.

underthetable Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who fucking cares if people doing shit work for
> shit pay aren't paying taxes? Small potatoes...

For one, the people doing that work should care. They are losing in the long run much more than they think they are gaining in the short run. Working off the books is like driving under the influence. Some people do it and seem to get away with it for a while. Then one day the roof caves in and their lives are never the same again. Sucks to be them.

> You should be more concerned about the people that
> make millions per year. Some are either cheating
> on their taxes or are lobbying to get laws passed
> that reduce their taxes way below their fair
> share.

Yes, and the biggest offenders there are the supposedly heroic blight of small businesses who omit income and reclassify expenses. That's why PPACA included provisions to expand 1099 reporting. Those would have established undeniable paper trails that SB tax fraudsters couldn't have trampled on. But the GOP came rushing to the defense of the criminal element at their core and managed to get most of those 1099 provisions repealed.

> I worked without reporting income for years. It
> is what kept me afloat and self sufficient. The
> way I see it, it prevented me from being yet
> another leech on the government. I just cut out
> the middle man. Maybe that's an empty argument.
> I am white male and was single at the time. I
> wasn't getting anything from anybody.

Desperate times may call for desperate measures. But you were doing yourself serious harm and putting yourself at serious risk. No unemployment coverage. No workers comp coverage. No credits earned toward SS when you reach your 60's. No earnings record to back up housing or credit applications. And you better hope that you never have to file for bankruptcy. If you do, talk very honestly with your attorney first because bank records examined in that process will reveal you as a tax cheat. The overdue bill to the IRS will become due and payable, along with significant penalties and interest. Debt to the IRS is not relieved by bankruptcy.

This is troll thread: teens don't mow lawns anymore. That's for the reconquistadors.

Hey Goober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Nope, realistic and relying on the Workers
> Defense
> > Project and the University of Texas, Austin.
> Many more....
>
> Interesting then that the single study you chose
> to cite was published in 2007 and described
> conditions in one city during a now long-ago era
> when the flows of easy money and illegal
> immigrants were at all time highs. Interesting as
> well that in order to make them sound more
> impressive, the numbers for "off the books"
> workers had to be augmented to include those
> illegally reclassified from ordinary employees
> into independent contractors by fly-by-nighters
> and other lawbreaking employers. Breaking news:
> drug dealers don't collect sales tax either.
> Criminal elements seek to operate in the shadows
> and below the radar. But these do not qualify as
> significant employers. Even in boom times, they
> are a small and typically unstable group that
> operates on the fringes.
>


Two studies posted. The WDP/UT Austin/UI Chicago for the state of Texas published in 1/2013 based on 2012 data. The other single city in the FPI study being NYC, one of the largest construction markets in the country. Current construction spending and employment there now are at substantially higher levels than the 2000-2005 period covered in the study as is the estimated undocumented population which is down from the peak but only by single-digit levels and again rising.

The independent contractor classification noted by FPI is not some attempt to make the numbers look more impressive. As earlier stated it's the reality of how the industry functions to a very large extent not just at the fringes. Rather than on the basis of single large "significant employers" hiring direct employees, instead on a job basis where completion of specific work is subcontracted to multiple tiers of many small independents and individuals working on a short-term basis under them. That there are a variety of incentives on the part of both employers and undocumented workers to keep things off the books serves to further promote abuse within a structure which tends to facilitate it. Nothing has changed to affect that in any substantial way, as is clear in the WDP report.

Neither WDP or FPI are "right-wing." They are advocates for undocumented workers concerned primarily with a variety of issues associated with wide-spread off-the-books practices in the construction industry. Wage effects, worker rights and safety, access to and funding for a state worker insurance and unemployment pools, etc. Avoided tax receipts being further incentive to bring undocumented workers in the industry "out of the shadows." Nor are they outliers. Many others note the same.

http://tcimass.org/sites/builtbest.prometheuslabor.com/files/20110412151015.pdf

Cutting Grass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've seen plenty of teenagers out this summer
> cutting the neighbors' grass (presumably for
> cash).
>
> Do these teens have to report their cash earnings
> to the IRS each year? I'm assuming they don't
> have a sole proprietorship/LLC/etc. established
> for this work.
>
> Also, what if these services are provided for a
> fundraiser (similar to a car wash)?
Attachments:

Many of those not paying taxes are technically classified as the nation's "unbanked" so there will be no records, hence no repercussions of overages vs shortages showing up in an "audit" of their "income." Here (below) is an interesting study (www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/) that came up with some statistics on this demographic group that may include many such "cash only" workers.

The point is, if someone is earning enough as a food deliveryman or waiter or dishwasher to fit the description of the household described--ie. 6/7+ "high-end" cars, a house paid for by cash, wall-sized flat-screened TVs in every room, 7 kids decked out with designer clothes and kept swimming in the newest toys as fast as they break the old ones, then they must certainly have enough to pay there fair share of some taxes (like the rest of the 1 per-centers with whom they are trying to share the same characteristics of spending and lifestyle).

It's those without jobs sufficient to allow them to properly take care of their families, when they really want to work and get decent pay, but economically nothing is available for them, who are needing the assistance until the economy turns around again and they will be able to earn what they need and pay what they need.

I must say I have to admire some of the the people of the Appalachians, who keep their families fed and clothed with their under the table "moonshine" businesses. At least they are creative enough, self sufficient enough, and with enough of a love of self-determination and freedom to find a way when they need a way out of an impossibly desperate poverty situation, making enough so that they don't have to live in slavery off the public dole for the rest of their lives. The only reason they get classified as outlaws by the ruling state and government overlords is because of the the usually prevalent greed of such overlords, who will legalize an enterprise only if they can keep half the proceeds of someone's hard work all for themselves. After all, gotta make sure that they keep the lazy ones controlled, docile, in servitude and happy with a permanent free income, place to live, etc, most especially for those who would "never ever lower themselves" to work for an honest dollar for the rest of their lives.

www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey (excerpt):
"The FDIC undertook this effort to address a gap in the availability of comprehensive data on the number of unbanked and underbanked households in the United States. The FDIC also conducted this survey to comply with Section 7 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Reform Conforming Amendments Act of 2005 that requires it to conduct ongoing surveys of banks efforts to serve the unbanked and provide insights into the size of the unbanked and underbanked markets."

"Some of the key overall findings from the 2011 include:
8.2 percent of US households are unbanked. This represents 1 in 12 households in the nation, or nearly 10 million in total.
The proportion of unbanked households increased slightly since the 2009 survey. The estimated 0.6 percentage point increase represents an additional 821,000 unbanked households."

"20.1 percent of US households are underbanked. This represents one in five households, or 24 million households. The 2011 underbanked rate in 2011 is higher than the 2009 rate of 18.2 percent, although the proportions are not directly comparable because of differences in the two surveys."

"29.3 percent of households do not have a savings account, while about 10 percent do not have a checking account. About two-thirds of households have both checking and savings accounts."

So, it may not be such a small percentage as you might think after all!

Johnny Cash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two studies posted. The WDP/UT Austin/UI Chicago
> for the state of Texas published in 1/2013 based
> on 2012 data.

Hard to do more than ignore the first one. It's an issue group hit piece. Any "study" that is "dedicated to the Texas families who have lost a loved one to the construction industry..." is going to have impartiality issues. And they too end up relying on examples of criminal conduct by businesses to pad their statistics. The appropriate response to criminal behavior is prosecution of the criminals, not further defamation of their victims.

> The other single city in the FPI study being NYC,
> one of the largest construction markets in the country.
> Current construction spending and employment there now
> are at substantially higher levels than the 2000-2005
> period covered in the study as is the estimated
> undocumented population which is down from the
> peak but only by single-digit levels and again
> rising.

Relevancy? The decade-old numbers reported were results from a time that no longer exists. Your claim that things are just the same today is unsubstantiated speculation and therefore completely meaningless drivel. Get some qualified people to back you up. Preferably unbiased people who have not chosen their conclusions in advance.

> The independent contractor classification noted by
> FPI is not some attempt to make the numbers look
> more impressive.

Then why are they lumped together rather than being separately presented?

> As earlier stated it's the reality of how the industry
> functions to a very large extent not just at the fringes.
> Rather than on the basis of single large "significant
> employers" hiring direct employees, instead on a job basis
> where completion of specific work is subcontracted to
> multiple tiers of many small independents and individuals
> working on a short-term basis under them. That there are
> a variety of incentives on the part of both employers and
> undocumented workers to keep things off the books serves
> to further promote abuse within a structure which tends to
> facilitate it.

So what you are claiming here is that significant employers do not hire off the books workers and to the maximum extent possible seek to preserve an aura of plausible deniability re the probable fact that at least some of the labor found on their projects is undocumented. Instead, you claim that such hiring is done by shifty small-time come-and-go operators working on the fringes. Thanks. I'd have never thought of that on my own.

> Nothing has changed to affect that in any
> substantial way, as is clear in the WDP report.

The only thing clear in the WDP report is its bias.

> Neither WDP or FPI are "right-wing." They are
> advocates for undocumented workers concerned
> primarily with a variety of issues associated with
> wide-spread off-the-books practices in the
> construction industry.

Once again, illegal re-classification of workers and hiring off-the-books workers are two different things. If you think both are relevant, present and discuss each one separately to show why. Lumping them together in order to have anything to say at all is simply dishonest, whether you are an "advocacy group" (hmmm) or just some internet bozo.

> Many others note the same.

The BNA article is an opinion piece written by a labor union official. He at least recognizes the duality of misclassification and off-the-books hiring, but there are no firm data or sources provided to back up his claims about either one. His intent is apparent enough though: to convince oversight officials and agencies to take stepped up actions against criminals. Not many will have issues with that. Except perhaps for the targeted officials and agencies, strapped for cash as so many of them are thanks to "fiscal conservatives".

Someinteresting stats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many of those not paying taxes are technically
> classified as the nation's "unbanked" so there
> will be no records, hence no repercussions of
> overages vs shortages showing up in an "audit" of
> their "income."

Dude, "unbanked" refers to people who do not use financial services at all. No savings or checking accounts, no safety deposit boxes, no ATM or credit cards, no loans or pension or insurance products. These are people with no money, not people with seven luxury cars in their flat-screen-festooned mansion driveways.

> I must say I have to admire some of the the
> people of the Appalachians, who keep their
> families fed and clothed with their under the
> table "moonshine" businesses.

Well, moonshine was replaced by marijuana quite a number of years back. Hard data on marijuana yields are hard to come by, but from official estimates, weed would be the number one cash crop in both Kentucky and West Virginia. And contrary to your suggestions, both states do of course have very heavy welfare case loads.