I have looked through the Virginia State and Fairfax County plumbing codes (at least what I've found online) and I have been unable to locate anything saying it's illegal to discharge a sump pump into the sewer line.

However, on the Fairfax County website it states that it IS illegal

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/wastewater/preventing_backups.htm

If it truly is illegal why no code? Anyone with experience with this know the real answer? I can call the county tomorrow and ask but it would help to get a definitive answer today.

How are they going to know?

Rat yourself out?

I re-plumbed the discharge on mine to go into the sewer line. Two of my downspouts also feed into that pipe.

pete the plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have looked through the Virginia State and
> Fairfax County plumbing codes (at least what I've
> found online) and I have been unable to locate
> anything saying it's illegal to discharge a sump
> pump into the sewer line.
>
> However, on the Fairfax County website it states
> that it IS illegal
>
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/wastewater/prev
> enting_backups.htm
>
> If it truly is illegal why no code? Anyone with
> experience with this know the real answer? I can
> call the county tomorrow and ask but it would help
> to get a definitive answer today.


I have reported people who were stealing from the water and sewer company by discharging sump pump water into the sewer. It is a crime and you can be fined and/or imprisoned for doing it. It is not even legal for your air conditioner condensate drain to go into the sewer although thousands of homes are doing it as the code was rarely enforced 10+ years ago.
Your sewer rate is based on your water usage. Since sump pump water is not metered water you have no legal right to dump it in the sanitary sewer.

It's not a matter of anyone finding out I'm doing something illegal. It's a matter of a licensed plumber that hooked up my sump pump discharge to the sewer line. I want to be 100% sure that it's illegal before I call them back and tell them to come back and do it the correct way.

pete the plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not a matter of anyone finding out I'm doing
> something illegal. It's a matter of a licensed
> plumber that hooked up my sump pump discharge to
> the sewer line. I want to be 100% sure that it's
> illegal before I call them back and tell them to
> come back and do it the correct way.


Are you sure it is hooked to the sewer line? That would be very bad. My sump pump is hooked to a storm-water line that is pumped across my yard in a underground pipe to the storm drain.
If I were you I wold call the county plumbing inspectors office for a free code compliance inspection. It will probably take a week or so to get a man out to your house.

former plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pete the plumber Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have looked through the Virginia State and
> > Fairfax County plumbing codes (at least what
> I've
> > found online) and I have been unable to locate
> > anything saying it's illegal to discharge a
> sump
> > pump into the sewer line.
> >
> > However, on the Fairfax County website it
> states
> > that it IS illegal
> >
> >
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/wastewater/prev
>
> > enting_backups.htm
> >
> > If it truly is illegal why no code? Anyone with
> > experience with this know the real answer? I
> can
> > call the county tomorrow and ask but it would
> help
> > to get a definitive answer today.
>
>
> I have reported people who were stealing from the
> water and sewer company by discharging sump pump
> water into the sewer. It is a crime and you can be
> fined and/or imprisoned for doing it. It is not
> even legal for your air conditioner condensate
> drain to go into the sewer although thousands of
> homes are doing it as the code was rarely enforced
> 10+ years ago.
> Your sewer rate is based on your water usage.
> Since sump pump water is not metered water you
> have no legal right to dump it in the sanitary
> sewer.

You need hour ass beat.

former plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have reported people who were stealing from the
> water and sewer company by discharging sump pump
> water into the sewer. It is a crime and you can be
> fined and/or imprisoned for doing it. It is not
> even legal for your air conditioner condensate
> drain to go into the sewer although thousands of
> homes are doing it as the code was rarely enforced
> 10+ years ago.
> Your sewer rate is based on your water usage.
> Since sump pump water is not metered water you
> have no legal right to dump it in the sanitary
> sewer.

And what would be your motivation to do such a thing rather than simply minding your own business and sticking to that which directly affects you?

former plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pete the plumber Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have looked through the Virginia State and
> > Fairfax County plumbing codes (at least what
> I've
> > found online) and I have been unable to locate
> > anything saying it's illegal to discharge a
> sump
> > pump into the sewer line.
> >
> > However, on the Fairfax County website it
> states
> > that it IS illegal
> >
> >
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/wastewater/prev
>
> > enting_backups.htm
> >
> > If it truly is illegal why no code? Anyone with
> > experience with this know the real answer? I
> can
> > call the county tomorrow and ask but it would
> help
> > to get a definitive answer today.
>
>
> I have reported people who were stealing from the
> water and sewer company by discharging sump pump
> water into the sewer. It is a crime and you can be
> fined and/or imprisoned for doing it. It is not
> even legal for your air conditioner condensate
> drain to go into the sewer although thousands of
> homes are doing it as the code was rarely enforced
> 10+ years ago.
> Your sewer rate is based on your water usage.
> Since sump pump water is not metered water you
> have no legal right to dump it in the sanitary
> sewer.

#sumppumpmatters

Squealer, Eh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And what would be your motivation to do such a
> thing rather than simply minding your own business
> and sticking to that which directly affects you?


What is your motivation to try and beat the system?

on of the comments is correct, Its not metered, I know the water authority does not want to treat storm water, and in your case, I would not want a blockage in the line after the sump entry to pump Sump water out of all your drains in the house, Could get messy.On the flip side of the metered they dont give you a break watering your lawn or garden and charge sewer fees on water going into the yard.

The all seeing eye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> on of the comments is correct, Its not metered, I
> know the water authority does not want to treat
> storm water, and in your case, I would not want a
> blockage in the line after the sump entry to pump
> Sump water out of all your drains in the house,
> Could get messy.On the flip side of the metered
> they dont give you a break watering your lawn or
> garden and charge sewer fees on water going into
> the yard.

Have a abate meter installed, dummy.

>And what would be your motivation to do such a thing rather than simply minding your own business and sticking to that which directly affects you?

Simply Put.. He's a Fucking Democrat.. Idiot Obama Voter all the way..Probably voted for Moran too..

"Live and Let Live".. A Democrat?? No Way in hell!

Plumbing to the sewer line seems insane. That trap will dry out for part the year.

pete the plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not a matter of anyone finding out I'm doing
> something illegal. It's a matter of a licensed
> plumber that hooked up my sump pump discharge to
> the sewer line. I want to be 100% sure that it's
> illegal before I call them back and tell them to
> come back and do it the correct way.

Yes, the best way to make sure something is 100% illegal or even 100% legal is to post your legal question in an open forum like this one. Hundreds of top notch lawyers monitor these forums so they can disseminate their scholarly legal opinions and make sure your issue is resolved 100% legally.

I am not a plumber, but I am a lawyer, and I can tell you that draining your sump pump into the sanitary sewer is:

a) illegal;
b) stupid.

I can only imagine somehow a clog created in the drainage, and your whole yard's worth of water will end up inside every room in your house that has a sink (if, the "abate thingy" or "back-up-prevent-valve-thing" fails.

If you want a good answer, call Fairfax Water. They'll come out and check you out for free. Then, things go down hill from there.

Just divert your water to its natural runoff, to either a creek or a storm drain.

Condensate, sump and downspouts are not allowed to be connected to sanitary sewer.

This is not metered water and it will put an additional load on the sewer system and treatment plant.

Finding the exact rules may not show up easily in a WSSC or Fairfax Water or Fairfax Sewer code. The BOCA code may have this ruling.

See the wet basement section of this document - http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/nvswcd/youyourland/soil.htm

This is the last part of Wet Basement Section

"Most building codes require that, wherever possible, the discharge line from a sump pump be connected to a storm sewer. If no storm sewer is located nearby, the discharge pipe must empty into a drainage swale, ditch, or stream that will carry the discharge away from your house without causing problems for a neighbor.

The local Muni code may also cover this in more detail.

Do the right thing. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is your motivation to try and beat the system?

I just want the damn water away from my foundation. The sewer pipe is handy and was easily hooked into well out of sight. Nothing apparent from inside or outside, and the two downspouts appear to go into drain tiles which empty further down the yard. The trick is that some other downspouts do, and two don't.

If the water in the pump is from downspouts then in the sewer it goes. No different than if it ran across your yard and into the drain.

If the water is from a sink or washer it must plumb into the sanitary drain to be recycled by the shit plant.

Also, there is no such thing as a sanitary sewer. It's either sewer for natural runoff or its sanitary drain to a waste water facility.

YLpYk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> If you want a good answer, call Fairfax Water.
> They'll come out and check you out for free. Then,
> things go down hill from there.

At which point, if it is plumbed incorrectly, they will give you 30 days to get in compliance before they cut off you water. They don't just drop by for a free inspection.

uCjee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> YLpYk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > If you want a good answer, call Fairfax Water.
> > They'll come out and check you out for free.
> Then,
> > things go down hill from there.
>
> At which point, if it is plumbed incorrectly, they
> will give you 30 days to get in compliance before
> they cut off you water. They don't just drop by
> for a free inspection.

+1. I had a leak that I could not locate and called them out. They were very good and figured out where is was (in the supply line between the house and curb) and then told me to fix it ASAP. I think they said 30 days or they'd cut off the water. Not sure if they ever came back to inspect or not.

The all seeing eye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .On the flip side of the metered
> they dont give you a break watering your lawn or
> garden and charge sewer fees on water going into
> the yard.



Residential customers are billed for use of the sanitary sewer system based on water consumption during the current billing period or the preceding winter quarter billing period, whichever is lower. This prevents residential customers from being charged for sewer use on water used outdoors during the summer.

mjs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The all seeing eye Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > .On the flip side of the metered
> > they dont give you a break watering your lawn
> or
> > garden and charge sewer fees on water going
> into
> > the yard.
>
>
>
> Residential customers are billed for use of the
> sanitary sewer system based on water consumption
> during the current billing period or the preceding
> winter quarter billing period, whichever is lower.
> This prevents residential customers from being
> charged for sewer use on water used outdoors
> during the summer.

Not 100% sure how correct this is. Used to be part of Falls Church water and I recall you had to notify them if you had an automatic sprinkler system and they would use the Winter sewer rates during the Spring/Summer months.
This was an "adjusted" sewer billing.

Not sure how Fairfax Water handles things, Falls Church Water was bought out by Fairfax Water so the rules may have changed.

But I have also found a few very interesting situation that can lead to unmetered water going down the sanitary line and cases where the Winter water usage is actually higher than it should be and it can alter your "adjusted" sewer billing.

Case #1, The DC/Metro area is quit humid during the Summer months. Many people have stand along dehumidifiers in their basements. These dehumidifiers can create up to 5+ gallons of water per day depending on the size of the dehumidifier. Many, many people either manually drain the humidifier bucket into the toilet or a basement shower, tub, sink or floor drain. Many people have the dehumidifier drain hose emptying into a floor drain. This is really no different than an AC condensate drain emptying into a sanitary drain.

Case #2, There are hundreds of thousands of dwelling and businesses all across the area. All of these dwellings and businesses that have indoor plumbing have vent stacks that are wide open to the sky. I lived in Europe for a number of years and it was required to have small roof baffles over the vent stacks to keep rainwater from entering the sanitary sewer system. This can and does put an additional load on the sewage treatment facilities. Just think what would happen if all the vent stacks in the area had the small roof baffles and how much rain water would not enter the sanitary sewage system.

Case #3, Winter usage of whole house humidifiers. Mostly for gas and oil systems, many houses/apts and a few offices and other dwellings in the area have humidifiers. Many are like the Aprilaire water panel humidifiers. These have a steady stream of water flowing over the water panel. Any waste goes out the condensate drain that SHOULD NOT be connected to the sanitary sewer, but many are. Additionally this additional water usage in the Winter can skew the Winter water/sewage rate for a facility.

I see MANY of these Aprilaire and other panel style humidifiers wasting a LOT of water. These will make the dripping faucet or leaking toilet look like a joke as far as water consumption. Many of these panel filters are supposed to have small plastic restriction orifices that erode over times and these systems will start to consume FAR more water than they actually need. This can be a MAJOR water waste and increases the load on the sewage treatment facilities.


If these small items would be identified and discussed more people could save a lot of money on their monthly water and sewer bills and the sewage treatment plants could have a lot of unnecessary water removed from processing.

most of fairfax is run on water lines not installed by fairfax from potomac not provided by fairfax

FAIRFAX COUNTY WATER AUTHORITY is named in lawsuits for charting for water supplies they infact never took part in providing

also: water provision and street runoff are not "all under one umbrella", and fx co water cannot charge people on the basis. city sewers for street run-off are part of road funding already taxed for by VA, not billable to residents as "water bill"

your story is full of brainwash trying to instruct people they can be controlled and billed by an agency which for the most part never existed except by fraud and pretetious papers

Seriously? Water metering is the reason? Geez...

1) Sanitary sewers usually have a much smaller diameter than storm drains, at leas in neighborhoods. We're not talking main trunk lines here

2) Storm drains, unlike sanitary sewers, discharge into streams or overflow basins relatively close by. Sanitary is a closed system all the way to the waste treatment facility

3) If every nitwit connected their sumps to the sanitary line, one major storm, with a lot of flooded basements, would see an enormous amount of extra water into the system. The pipes couldn't handle it, nor could the treatment plant. Most of the flow would end up being dumped raw into the Potomac at some point.

4) If you don't have a backflow/check valve, pumping extra water into a backed up sanitary system would just put that same water back into your house. A real nice closed loop you have there.

And baffles are to keep rain water out? Uh, don't want to do the math here, but a 4" diameter pipe on the roof has how much surface area? And rain is just going to pour in a deluge down it? Even with thousands of vents, just how much really is going to make it into them? If there is any reason to have baffles at the end it would be to keep critters from getting stuck in there or prevent birds from building nests in them.

Then Fairfax had better beef up its sanitary lines as my sump is hooked and is going to stay hooked, along with my downspouts.

I can see giving in to the temptation to have your sump pump discharge into the sewer lines. Only a moron would hook their downspouts to the household sewer line. The capacity isn't there to move the water to the sewer main, so that water is going to back up...into your residence.

Or into your residence if you're downstream from me!

Nor OR. Perhaps AND.

Feed 2 gallons of water per minute into a pipe designed to carry 1 gallon of water per minute at normal pressure and that excess water is going to be looking for someplace to go. The easiest place is going to be somewhere else in your house. There are ways to engineer round this, but they'd probably involve more work and expense than simply plumbing the system correctly in the first place.

So you're saying my gutters will be full of shit?

Fairfax needs to upgrade.

FktdX wrote:


Case #3, Winter usage of whole house humidifiers. Mostly for gas and oil systems, many houses/apts and a few offices and other dwellings in the area have humidifiers. Many are like the Aprilaire water panel humidifiers. These have a steady stream of water flowing over the water panel. Any waste goes out the condensate drain that SHOULD NOT be connected to the sanitary sewer, but many are. Additionally this additional water usage in the Winter can skew the Winter water/sewage rate for a facility.


Nothing illegal about a Aprilaire or Honeywell water panel type humidifier draining into the sanitary sewer because that is metered water. I agree with you that they do waste lots of water. The older non draining humidifiers are foul and disgusting as they allow for the growth of moldy and nasty stuff in the water. The continuous drain water panel types do not have that problem because fresh chlorinated water is supplied to them keeping that growth in check. They should be wired to only use water when the blower is on.

hvac guy2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FktdX wrote:
>
>
> Case #3, Winter usage of whole house humidifiers.
> Mostly for gas and oil systems, many houses/apts
> and a few offices and other dwellings in the area
> have humidifiers. Many are like the Aprilaire
> water panel humidifiers. These have a steady
> stream of water flowing over the water panel. Any
> waste goes out the condensate drain that SHOULD
> NOT be connected to the sanitary sewer, but many
> are. Additionally this additional water usage in
> the Winter can skew the Winter water/sewage rate
> for a facility.
>
>
> Nothing illegal about a Aprilaire or Honeywell
> water panel type humidifier draining into the
> sanitary sewer because that is metered water. I
> agree with you that they do waste lots of water.
> The older non draining humidifiers are foul and
> disgusting as they allow for the growth of moldy
> and nasty stuff in the water. The continuous drain
> water panel types do not have that problem because
> fresh chlorinated water is supplied to them
> keeping that growth in check. They should be wired
> to only use water when the blower is on.

True that nothing is wrong with the humidifier drain into the sanitary sewer as it is metered water, but they usually drain into the same path as the condensate drain.

But they do waste a lot of water if they are not properly installed and maintained. If anyone has a water panel humidifier needs to pay attention to how much water is constantly draining from these systems.

The bigger the government or agency, the less is understood and fewer brain cells are available to put forth some common sense.

Most localities do a very poor job documenting things that need to be clearly documented. Many refer back to BOCA or Municipal code standards.

I just dealt with this on water pressure in a house.

The problem was the water pressure was spiking to 175 PSI and causing the water heater pressure relief valve to trip/leak. The house had a water pressure regulator, which I think all houses should have, but it had a input check valve, which I think all pressure regulators should have.

The hose clearly needs an expansion tank. But the homeowner contact Fairfax and is told to replace the water pressure regulator without a check valve. Well this kind of works, but then the pressure can push back against the county water pressure, however, if the street pressure is 90+ PSI you can and will still have pressure spikes in the system in the house.

One thing water heaters do not like is the constant pressure changes, this can cause the glass lining to crap prematurely.

Just do the right thing, install an expansion tank on any water heater replacement. You will find that the water pressure should not vary by more than 5-10 PSI with an expansion tank.

But read what Fairfax County has to say about this. They are so far off base.

MANY houses in FFX have water pressure regulators, most have check valves. But why are they trying to offer ways to remove or avoid an expansion tank?

FFX has not idea how the pressure extremes stress plumbing components and especially water heaters.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/construction/water_heaters.htm

Really not much different that not clearly spelling out what can and cannot be connected to a sanitary sewer line. The answer for the sanitary sewer line is pretty clear, only metered water sources can be connected to the sanitary sewer line.

Too Big: By no means disputing anything you said, but adding to it:
I replaced water heaters several times, in several houses, before ever learning about expansion tanks. And I learned about them only because the third heater in this house (over 25 years -- first one didn't die but was only 50gal, and the 80gal that replaced it crapped out after 15 years or so) started spitting through the pressure relief valve. Sears had installed that one (yeah, yeah, don't start). They sent out their troubleshooter old guy (hey, I called it in as "My new water heater is leaking", what did I know?) and he said "Needs an expansion tank". I declined to have Sears install it, had the plumber I trust do it; he agreed, they're always a good idea.

So my question, if I have one, is: Why didn't Sears try to sell me an expansion tank when they installed the unit? Upsell is a good way to make money. And I guess the related (but probably equally unanswerable) question is: Why didn't I need one in the past?

Expansion tank allows for the volume change in heated water in closed system. It doesnt change much but pipes aren't flexible. A backflow preventer or check valve makes your local system closed.

I don't know how much it would buffer incoming pressure spikes since it accommodates volume changes not pressure changes. As long as the volume change is small, less than the expansion bladder, it would work. But several spikes of high pressure could "fill up" the expansion tank.

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too Big: By no means disputing anything you said,
> but adding to it:
> I replaced water heaters several times, in several
> houses, before ever learning about expansion
> tanks. And I learned about them only because the
> third heater in this house (over 25 years -- first
> one didn't die but was only 50gal, and the 80gal
> that replaced it crapped out after 15 years or so)
> started spitting through the pressure relief
> valve. Sears had installed that one (yeah, yeah,
> don't start). They sent out their troubleshooter
> old guy (hey, I called it in as "My new water
> heater is leaking", what did I know?) and he said
> "Needs an expansion tank". I declined to have
> Sears install it, had the plumber I trust do it;
> he agreed, they're always a good idea.
>
> So my question, if I have one, is: Why didn't
> Sears try to sell me an expansion tank when they
> installed the unit? Upsell is a good way to make
> money. And I guess the related (but probably
> equally unanswerable) question is: Why didn't I
> need one in the past?

Pressure/Temp valve leaks can happened at different points in time due to a number of factors. Sometimes they leak very little and the homeowner does not realize they are leaking.

So a few things to consider.

IMHO a properly set up water supply system in any residence has a water pressure regulator with an input check valve. The input check valve keeps your water from entering back into the water supply system. This can happen when the city water pressure drops because of water being shut off in the system, water main breaks, pressure drop due to fire engine pumper connected to a local hydrant and just standard water system pressure fluctuations. The pressure regulator with the input check valve can also protect you from back flow in a garden hose, although many localities require a separate hose bib vacuum breaker which is always a good idea.

So assuming your house has a water pressure regulator with an input check valve, this means no water or water pressure will return to the city water supply.

What happens is anything expands when heated. Water actually expands more than you think when heated and the larger the water heater, the larger the water volume that can expand. Also the input water temperature influences how much the water can and will expand. In theory the water input temperature should be pretty static, however, it typically can vary for a number of reasons. Usually the colder the outside temperature the colder the input water temperature.

Moving on, water expands when heated. You had a smaller water heater, then installed a larger one. The water heater is supposed to be sized for the single larger hot water user/appliance in the house. This is usually based on the largest bathtub and sometimes the total number of bathrooms in the house. For most single family homes a 40 gallon water heater is the standard default water heater size. But if the house has a larger "soaking" or "whirlpool" bathtub, the water heater may be sized up to 90 gallons.

So lets assume with the smaller water heater you never had a problem. This could have been for a number of reasons. Smaller water volume to heat, less single use hot water usage in the home (only 1-2 people), lower water temperature set point, dripping faucet or toilet that will constantly or consistently purge water pressure and keep the water heater expansion from building up too much pressure. If the heater was electric, the lower element could have been burned out, in turn heating the water at a slower rate over a longer period of time and allowing for pressure to be purged off by other water usage in the house.

Move to a larger water heater, you did not do this just because you felt better about having a larger water heater, you "needed" a larger water heater because of the usage profile in the house. Now with the new water heater, chances are more hot water is used per occurrence and/or many hot water appliances are used back to back depleting the water heater. The newer water heater may also have a higher recovery rate and may actually be set to a slightly higher temperature. All of these factors can and will cause the water to expand at either a faster and/or a greater rate then previously.

If the temperature/pressure relief valve is leaking, then the water pressure in the water heater is hitting close to 150 PSI or more. I recently put my pressure gauge with a tell tale indicator on a heater and the max pressure was measured at 175 PSI!!!! This house had a pressure regulator with an input check valve and no expansion tank.

Just think about what is going on with the water heater and the plumbing system in the house. The house water pressure is constantly going up and down from approximately 40-50 PSI to 150 PSI or more. Think about what this does to the glass line water heater tank. It can start to crack the glass lining and cause premature tank failure. But also think about the washing machine supply hoses, ice maker water lines and other flexible water supply lines in the house.

So the best solution is to put a "properly sized" expansion tank on the cold water supply line to the water heater. I usually set the air pressure in the expansion tank to match the static water pressure in the house. I typically like a static water pressure around 55 PSI so what when the water is turned on the operation pressure is just around 50 PSI. The expansion tank then evens out or "manages" the house water pressure, eliminating the large pressure spikes that can and will happen when no expansion tank is present.

I believe in some jurisdictions expansion tanks are required, in some jurisdictions expansion tanks are suggest and IMHO an expansion tank is really a "required" device that can and will protect the water heater, extends is life and will also protect the flexible water lines and water filters in the house and reduce the possible failures of these items.

I find it comical that Fairfax's own web site and their staff do not recommend an expansion tank, think that the majority of houses in the area do not have water pressure regulators and suggest if there is a problem to replace the water pressure regulator WITHOUT an input check valve. If the Fairfax people have ever bothered to monitor the water pressure with a tell tale pressure gauge, I think they will quickly change their response. City water pressure varies quite a bit. There are all sorts of booster pumps, water towers, switching valves and so forth that can and will cause a large variation in city/local water pressure.

Be wise, protect your home with a pressure regulator with an integral check valve and install a properly sized expansion tank on the cold water supply side of your water heater.

tw9Cy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Expansion tank allows for the volume change in
> heated water in closed system. It doesnt change
> much but pipes aren't flexible. A backflow
> preventer or check valve makes your local system
> closed.
>
> I don't know how much it would buffer incoming
> pressure spikes since it accommodates volume
> changes not pressure changes. As long as the
> volume change is small, less than the expansion
> bladder, it would work. But several spikes of
> high pressure could "fill up" the expansion tank.

So you would be surprised how much the volume does change when water is heated. I think a typical 40 gallon water heater needs an expansion tank with at least 1 gallon. A 80 gallon water heater would typically need a large expansion tank.

My comment about the expansion tank buffing incoming water pressure was based on Fairfax County mentioning for people to replace the water pressure regulator with a unit that DOES NOT have an input check valve. The fallacy is using a water pressure regulator WITHOUT a check valve would allow the house water pressure to bleed back out to the city/county water supply. BUT the house could/would still be subject to what ever the city/county water supply pressure is. So lets stay the city/county pressure is 90 PSI at the residence, if and when the water expands in the water heater and no other devices in the house have bled off pressure, then the house system pressure would typically peak or spike at 90 PSI. You still have a "closed" system based on the city/county water supply pressure.

What happens if the city/county water pressure spikes or peaks close to 150 PSI for some reason and the water in the heater need to expand back against the city/county pressure of 150 PSI?

This is all very simple, buy a water pressure gauge with a tell tale indicator and install it on the water heater drain, then crack the heater drain so the gauge can monitor the peak water pressure. I think everyone would be surprised what they see and would quickly move to install a properly sized expansion tank on their system.

Although not a code requirement that I am aware of in Fairfax County, IMHO it should be. Better plumbing companies have included the installation of an expansion tank as a standard procedure for new water heater installations.

40 gallon water heater requires a 2 gallon expansion tank.

80 gallon and larger water heater requires a 5 gallon expansion tank.

http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/tanks/aoseb55300.pdf

Fuck an expansion tank, they are just another thing to give you trouble. All you have to do is have at least one toilet in the house with a pressure release ballcock. I use the Watts Ballcock & Relief Valve Governor 80. Any homeowner who is not a total lame ass can install one of these in a few minutes.

This is a great thread.

love your plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a great thread.


It sure is! I am gonna get a device that measures gallons per minute. I bet mine is more than yours. What type of plunger do yo prefer? Pipe dope or teflon tape, the controversy never ends!

Next week I would like some opinions about shower-heads!!

In the know2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fuck an expansion tank, they are just another
> thing to give you trouble. All you have to do is
> have at least one toilet in the house with a
> pressure release ballcock. I use the Watts
> Ballcock & Relief Valve Governor 80. Any homeowner
> who is not a total lame ass can install one of
> these in a few minutes.


That may be an option, however, it is a bandaid.

Trips at 80 PSI and you have to listen to a toilet run as well as pay for the water it wastes. You will also still have pressure changes in the house system, not at high as with no expansion tank, but still a 30+ PSI pressure variation. The expansion tank keeps the house pressure probably within 5 PSI or maybe less.

Expansion tanks do not last forever, but I install a ball valve in the line to the tank so if the tank fail, turn off the ball valve, swap tank and move on.

Just install the system right and move on.

But like everything, everyone has an opinion and everyone wants to be cheap.

And for anyone that has an electric water heater, turn off the power and use an Ohm meter or continuity tester to check the elements. The lower element burns out much faster than the upper element. The elements are like $10-$15 and they are light light bulbs, they have a specific number of run hours before the burn out. They also get calcium and mineral build up on them that impacts their ability to transfer heat quickly.

I just checked the price on the Watts Ballcock 80, that thing is expensive.

Ballcocks are not so reliable either.

You can get a 2 gallon expansion tank for about 1/2 the price of the ballcock. A few pipe fitting and a ball valve and you are still cheaper than the ballcock.

Too Big Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just checked the price on the Watts Ballcock 80,
> that thing is expensive.
>
> Ballcocks are not so reliable either.
>
> You can get a 2 gallon expansion tank for about
> 1/2 the price of the ballcock. A few pipe fitting
> and a ball valve and you are still cheaper than
> the ballcock.


There are several different types of pressure reliving ballcocks. They are silent and less trouble than a exp. tank. They waste about 4 to 8 ounces of water a day on average. The ones that I sell cost me about 10 bucks wholesale and I sell them to homeowners for 74.99 plus labor to install. They are a far better solution than a expansion tank with a bladder that busts every 5 or 6 years. I remove those stupid tanks all the time and use a toilet valve.

bored homeowner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> love your plumber Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is a great thread.
>
>
> It sure is! I am gonna get a device that measures
> gallons per minute. I bet mine is more than yours.
> What type of plunger do yo prefer? Pipe dope or
> teflon tape, the controversy never ends!
>
> Next week I would like some opinions about
> shower-heads!!

Sure beats talking about Doug Kammerer's toupee.

plumber long time Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too Big Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I just checked the price on the Watts Ballcock
> 80,
> > that thing is expensive.
> >
> > Ballcocks are not so reliable either.
> >
> > You can get a 2 gallon expansion tank for about
> > 1/2 the price of the ballcock. A few pipe
> fitting
> > and a ball valve and you are still cheaper than
> > the ballcock.
>
>
> There are several different types of pressure
> reliving ballcocks. They are silent and less
> trouble than a exp. tank. They waste about 4 to 8
> ounces of water a day on average. The ones that I
> sell cost me about 10 bucks wholesale and I sell
> them to homeowners for 74.99 plus labor to
> install. They are a far better solution than a
> expansion tank with a bladder that busts every 5
> or 6 years. I remove those stupid tanks all the
> time and use a toilet valve.

As I figured, plumbers make more money that Lawyers, $65 mark up on a part plus at least 1.5 hours labor. $75 charge to the door and $75 for the first 30 minutes!

Gee at least if the expansion tank bladder fails every 5 years you can go back and sell them another one.

I guess it easier to put a ballcock in than an expansion tank or at least you make more money on the ballcock job.

Plumbing is a VERY high overhead business. I don't make a fortune. 150k to 170k a year. I bet my Lawyer makes at least 400k.

plumber long time Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Plumbing is a VERY high overhead business. I don't
> make a fortune. 150k to 170k a year. I bet my
> Lawyer makes at least 400k.


$150-170k for a Plumber is Lawyer rates. Electricians and Mechanics do not make this much either.

Many lawyers do not make much more than $170k per year. Partners in firms can make more, but your average lawyer. probably makes between $150-$170k per year.

Too Big Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you would be surprised how much the volume does
> change when water is heated. I think a typical 40
> gallon water heater needs an expansion tank with
> at least 1 gallon. A 80 gallon water heater would
> typically need a large expansion tank.

The water heater maintains a constant temperature (well sort of but close enough) so there isn't that much expansion going on unless you are starting from a cold start like a hydronic heating system.

Yes, if the city pressure spikes you can't expand back into their system but hopefully their system does stay at 150psi constantly.

bored homeowner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pipe dope or
> teflon tape, the controversy never ends!

Both if I don't want to take apart again. Dope tape dope. Assemble.

6Ht7M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bored homeowner Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Pipe dope or
> > teflon tape, the controversy never ends!
>
> Both if I don't want to take apart again. Dope
> tape dope. Assemble.


Teflon tape is the only way to go. Pink for gas, white for water and steam. I only use dope on drains. I have never had a leak with tape.

I took the use both advice from a experienced pipe fitter. This was on 2" and 3" threaded couplings for a process dry cooler.

LVX6y Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too Big Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So you would be surprised how much the volume
> does
> > change when water is heated. I think a typical
> 40
> > gallon water heater needs an expansion tank
> with
> > at least 1 gallon. A 80 gallon water heater
> would
> > typically need a large expansion tank.
>
> The water heater maintains a constant temperature
> (well sort of but close enough) so there isn't
> that much expansion going on unless you are
> starting from a cold start like a hydronic heating
> system.
>
> Yes, if the city pressure spikes you can't expand
> back into their system but hopefully their system
> does stay at 150psi constantly.



The water heater does not maintain a constant temperature, it attempts to maintain a constant temperature. There is A LOT of expansion even when not starting from cold. Deplete the water tank by 50% with 50F input water that needs to be raise to 120F+ there WILL be a fair amount of expansion.

I love how people back seat drive this type of thing ALL the time.

Just get one of the pressure gauges with a tell tale needle, install it on your system and YOU WILL see how high the pressure is in your water heater/water supply system.

http://www.amazon.com/LDR-020-9645-Pressure-4-Inch/dp/B004RSTCZA/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1450569248&sr=8-4&keywords=water+pressure+gauge

They sell these at most home centers as well.

IF your house has a water pressure regulator, good chance it is a style with an input check valve. I think you might even be surprised how high your peak water pressure builds up in the house!!!

Forget the discussion, just measure and monitor the max pressure.

> Too Big Wrote:

The water heater does not maintain a constant temperature, it attempts to maintain a constant temperature. There is A LOT of expansion even when not starting from cold. Deplete the water tank by 50% with 50F input water that needs to be raise to 120F+ there WILL be a fair amount of expansion.


You are completely wrong.
100% wrong.
Wrong as usual.

You are so incredibly ignorant!

Fuck you and your ignorance.

Licensed Master Plumber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Too Big Wrote:
>
> The water heater does not maintain a constant
> temperature, it attempts to maintain a constant
> temperature. There is A LOT of expansion even when
> not starting from cold. Deplete the water tank by
> 50% with 50F input water that needs to be raise to
> 120F+ there WILL be a fair amount of expansion.
>
>
> You are completely wrong.
> 100% wrong.
> Wrong as usual.
>
> You are so incredibly ignorant!
>
> Fuck you and your ignorance.

Would not hire your dumb ass to do any work at my house!

Everyone that drives a car has a license but this does not mean they know how to drive or do a good job. Just because you are a "Licensed Master Plumber" does not mean you do quality work or understand what you do an a daily basis!

This assumes you are a "Licensed Master Plumber" and not a typical Troll claiming to be someone that you aren't.

Too Big: Thanks for the thoughtful response. It wasn't the first 80-gal that leaked, but the second. But yeah, enough time had passed that ballcocks had been replaced, and the first 80-gal had a bad element. So while we'll never know the exact answer, it's surely one of those or a combination.

The other thing that I am always amazed at is how few people know about the pans that you can put under a water heater. I'd never heard of 'em--no plumber ever suggested one over several water heater replacements. I just happened to notice them at Ferguson's one day while waiting for another part. For those who have never seen them: picture a HUGE cake pan with a knockout or hole in one side for a hose fitting; you stand the heater in it and so if it leaks a little, the pan catches it. If you have a floor drain near it, you can attach a piece of hose to it and so a medium leak will just go down the drain. Obviously if the heater ruptures, there's no hope, but it'll minimize or eliminate a lesser leak. For $20 or so, they're no-brainers in my book.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hot+water+heater+pan

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too Big: Thanks for the thoughtful response. It
> wasn't the first 80-gal that leaked, but the
> second. But yeah, enough time had passed that
> ballcocks had been replaced, and the first 80-gal
> had a bad element. So while we'll never know the
> exact answer, it's surely one of those or a
> combination.
>
> The other thing that I am always amazed at is how
> few people know about the pans that you can put
> under a water heater. I'd never heard of 'em--no
> plumber ever suggested one over several water
> heater replacements. I just happened to notice
> them at Ferguson's one day while waiting for
> another part. For those who have never seen them:
> picture a HUGE cake pan with a knockout or hole in
> one side for a hose fitting; you stand the heater
> in it and so if it leaks a little, the pan catches
> it. If you have a floor drain near it, you can
> attach a piece of hose to it and so a medium leak
> will just go down the drain. Obviously if the
> heater ruptures, there's no hope, but it'll
> minimize or eliminate a lesser leak. For $20 or
> so, they're no-brainers in my book.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=hot+water+heater+p
> an


I believe that water heater catch pans are required by code when the water heater is mounted/installed where water could do damage, but technically this is really anywhere, even an unfinished basement were a drain is located because you never know how the slab will route water.

If the house is older, it probably does not have a pan because this was prior to the codes changing.

Correct that the pan may not contain a full water heater blow out, but often the temp/pressure overflow trips and/or the tank starts to leak slowly before the unit fully give way.

A water alarm in the pan or on the floor near the heater is not a bad idea.

If the house has an alarm system, you can get water sensors and tie it into the alarm panel to notify you locally and/or have the alarm monitoring company call you.

Water can make a big mess.

Too BIg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The water heater does not maintain a constant
> temperature, it attempts to maintain a constant
> temperature. There is A LOT of expansion even when
> not starting from cold. Deplete the water tank by
> 50% with 50F input water that needs to be raise to
> 120F+ there WILL be a fair amount of expansion.

The calculations I have made for sizing an expansion tank tank have pointed toward something like 0.3-0.5 gallons. That's pretty small. Smaller than the smallest expansion tanks (yes, I know it's not a problem to be over). I have some 1.5" copper laying around, I could just make a stand pipe.

I do know the system is building pressure. I have a PRV (it was installed when I bought the house to "correct" the 85psi at the street). At times the flow from the faucets is briefly faster.

> I love how people back seat drive this type of
> thing ALL the time.

My experience is mostly with industrial/process piping. I have a degree in engineering.

cUjuN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too BIg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The water heater does not maintain a constant
> > temperature, it attempts to maintain a constant
> > temperature. There is A LOT of expansion even
> when
> > not starting from cold. Deplete the water tank
> by
> > 50% with 50F input water that needs to be raise
> to
> > 120F+ there WILL be a fair amount of expansion.
>
> The calculations I have made for sizing an
> expansion tank tank have pointed toward something
> like 0.3-0.5 gallons. That's pretty small.
> Smaller than the smallest expansion tanks (yes, I
> know it's not a problem to be over). I have some
> 1.5" copper laying around, I could just make a
> stand pipe.
>
> I do know the system is building pressure. I have
> a PRV (it was installed when I bought the house to
> "correct" the 85psi at the street). At times the
> flow from the faucets is briefly faster.
>
> > I love how people back seat drive this type of
> > thing ALL the time.
>
> My experience is mostly with industrial/process
> piping. I have a degree in engineering.

cUjuN,

I agree with your calculations for the most part, my guess is you factored a 40-50 gallon water heater for your calculation and maybe had a 80-90F minimum temperature. But like anything I have to "assume" you made some "assumptions" for your calculations. No need to get into all the details, but I think one thing people sometimes forget is the extremes that can and do sometimes occur.

For instance someone made the claim that an expansion tank is only required is a close system when start up from cold occurs. Lets take a real world case that can easily occur. Again, making some assumptions.

Single family home, 50 gallon electric or natural gas power vent water heater. Power goes out for 8+ hours, water temperature is depleted, maybe not to full room temperature but close. Family is either not home or realizes that it will take a 1-2 hours for full hot water to return and does not use any water. This can a worse case expansion situation that can and will happen with most homes at least once every few years.


If the house has a natural draft gas water heater less likely the system will have a cold start like with an electric or gas power vent heater.

As for the stand pipe ideas this can and will work, the problem is sizing it correctly and maintaining the air column. Keep in mind the unless you can pre-charge the standpipe, with air pressure, the standpipe will fill up with water as the airspace is compressed. So having a series of valves and and air compressor along with an understanding of how the stand pipe works the system is not hands off. But this could be a very good long term solution if someone wants and knows to maintain the system.

My comment about the "back seat driving" is due to a few comments on here stating I was all wrong and ignorant. I deal with there here of FFX often and I am involved in a LOT of support forums where it seems the "older" crowd LOVES to try to poke holes in statements and comments by finding other information on the Internet during a search and countering a claim without these people every thinking about what I stated or even verifying anything first hand before posting some opposing view that they found in a search that may not even be consistent with what my statements are.

Internet Monday Morning Quarterbacks is I guess what they are.

I think we can all agree that excessive water pressure can and will occur in many residential water systems. I think we can and all agree that there a number of different methods to resolve or address the problem. The difference is what approach someone may take and why. Then there are the few that this concept is SO over their head they just do not understand or "get it" and they think we are the Chicken Littles that think the sky is falling.

My original point is how Fairfax County is advising home owners to replace their water pressure regulators with units without check valves, this can help the situation, but will not lead to a relatively stable water pressure in a residence. I prefer to have a stable water pressure to protect my water heater and any of my plumbing fixtures and hoses and it is easy and fairly cost effective to do. Commercially available expansion tanks do not last forever, but they can be quickly and easily replaced as needed if a ball valve is put inline to the expansion tank connection.

At around $40, I have no problem spending $40 every 8-12 years or how often I need to in order to have balanced and stable water pressure in my house.

And BTW if your water pressure regulator is over 25 years old, I would consider replacing it, I see water pressure regulators leaking quite often between 25-30 years of age.

Few things with rubber seals and moving parts lasts more than 25 years tops!

Cary, could you move or delete this ignorant thread. It is in the wrong forum and it's full of stupidity and ignorance.

interwebs patrol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cary, could you move or delete this ignorant
> thread. It is in the wrong forum and it's full of
> stupidity and ignorance.


Don't click on it dumbass. Just that simple

Don't click Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> interwebs patrol Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cary, could you move or delete this ignorant
> > thread. It is in the wrong forum and it's full
> of
> > stupidity and ignorance.
>
>
> Don't click on it dumbass. Just that simple


Don't tell me what to click on and what not to click on you ignorant fuckstick motherfucker.