I am a parent with a kid in 2nd grade that was just accepted into the GT Program. I have heard from one other parent who went through it that the program can be really tough and unless your kid is super motivtated that it becomes too much. Her kid ended up hataing school.

Looking for other experiences.

FCPS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a parent with a kid in 2nd grade that was
> just accepted into the GT Program. I have heard
> from one other parent who went through it that the
> program can be really tough and unless your kid is
> super motivtated that it becomes too much. Her
> kid ended up hataing school.
>
> Looking for other experiences.

FCPS Parent,

The parent(s) have to be motivated and consistently involved with the homework and projects, too. This is my experience.

Congratulations, and good luck!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2010 10:33AM by Berdhuis.

My daughter is now a 1st year at UVA and went through the GT schools (Hunters Woods). I agree with Berdhuis as that was my experience in elementary school. I had to assist quite a bit through 6th grade. However, starting 6th grade she really took off and did everything on her own. The student really has to be self motivated to make it worthwhile. Staying at the base school means staying with neighborhood friends throughout. The friend part is so important and an appropriately socialized child is more likely to be successful as an adult.

You must ask yourself why your daughter was accepted into AAP. There are those who are pushed into the centers by their teachers because it's what's best for the student. They will do fine. That's about half or less of the AAP center populations. The remainder were pushed by their parents. Only you know how much you had to search for answers you felt were acceptable and near-truthful on the recommendation form. Or how much you prepped for the test. If you are in that second group, you are in for lots of tears at the homework table in grades 3-4-5-6 and then she will make the "wrong" friends in 7th and begin a serious downslide into high school. Identifying grains of truth in my writing indicates that your daughter will do better both emotionally and academically by staying with her peers.

FCPS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a parent with a kid in 2nd grade that was
> just accepted into the GT Program.

Congrats. I am certain your child has a special purpose.

I was in the GT program at Stratford Landing in 3rd/part of 4th grade and loved it. I didn't have any problems with homework or anything else, but then again I loved school. It was like normal school - doing hands on projects, taking field trips, etc. - to help learn - but went more in-depth and was often at least 2 grades ahead in material.

I then moved to Prince William County where the GT program there is utterly bunk bullshit. You get shipped to a special school one day a week to do "alternative" thinking projects rather than just advanced learning of required subjects. You are also expected to make up missed work and know what happened in class while you were out.

One of my kids was in GT and it was just different. Instead of memorizing facts they do more analyzing and comparing. It also depends on the teacher some years were good and some not. If did not seem to really be more homework just more writing and thought needed to be put in. I not think it really would of mattered if I kept him in the base school or not. I did not put him in the Gt Program in middle school a

Beavis and Butthead are going to the gifted class!

496 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Beavis and Butthead are going to the gifted class!


Typical asinine and unfunny 496 joke!

FCPS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a parent with a kid in 2nd grade that was
> just accepted into the GT Program. I have heard
> from one other parent who went through it that the
> program can be really tough and unless your kid is
> super motivtated that it becomes too much. Her
> kid ended up hataing school.
>
> Looking for other experiences.

First, take a look at Fairfax County Association for the Gifted - fcag.org. They have a mailing list & list archives that you should take a look at regarding the choice. Needless to say, there tends to be a lot of email on that list this time of year regarding the GTC choice.

Questions - Does your ES have a "Local Level IV" class (see http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/gt/centers.html)? (Local Level IV classes are classes that are for GT kids, but, depending on your ES, may or may not have a high percentage of county selected kids.) If your ES doesn't have a LLIV class, your kid ought to go to GTC unless your ES happens to have a lot of very high achievers. If your ES does have Local Level IV, that's an additional option you should consider & the FCAG list can help there.

How "GT" is your kid? (See http://www.hoagiesgifted.org, in particular consider the test scores your kid got on the COGAT/Negleri/etc and look at http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm)

Other basic questions to ask yourself & if the answer is yes to any of them, GTC or Local Level IV the kid -

Is your kid bored in school?
Been coming home complaining about how little he/she is learning?
Spends all of her time reading (including during school while she's purportedly being "taught" something else she already knows)?
Doesn't have a lot of friends or tends to have older friends?
Been the kid in your neighborhood the other kids ask their parents why your kid uses such big words?
Is your kid twice exceptional? - the GTCs tend to be better prepared because they see more of them.

Given you have what some consider the "magic letter," you can decide to defer & send your kid any time you want. The primary issue with this tends to be that, beyond 4th grade, it's harder for your kid to catch up in math.

I found out that GT is so overrated. I took the school administered IQ test to get into the GT program for Middle School, and they tried to say that I was too low. Then I took the real IQ test at George Mason University a few weeks later, and the results showed that I was extremely high up on the scale. So I ended up taking some GT classes (I decided against the GT center at Hughes), but by the time I was in 11th grade, I was only still taking one Honors class (Which is what they call GT nowadays). Honors simply took up too much extra time, and I didn't see how anyone learned anymore in it as opposed to "regular" classes. However, I really started enjoying school more when I became an Upperclassman, because I finally had accrued enough credits so that I had free periods (I would sometimes help-out in the office, or go home an hour forty-five minutes early). This in turn gave me more time to catch-up on work, and to take part in extracurricular activities (ie, Football).

Btw, don't push too hard for advanced classes anyway. I took Algebra in 8th Grade, and that was a major mistake. It made me hate the subject, and I never received good grades in either Algebra I, or Algebra II (Which I took in 10th grade). In Geometry Honors, in 9th grade, I finished with a B+ average (The same with Honors Biology, Honors History, and Honors English), but having taken Algebra a year or two ahead of schedule really botched up that subject area.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

My child went from a very social, but often teacher-frustrating experience in his base school to a student demoralizing and frequently ostracized existence in the GT center. No peers went from the base school and many of the kids at the GT center were obsessed with "status" or differentiating themselves from each other.

Our child was so far ahead in base school that they were being sent to the library to "do research" or the principal's office for disrupting the class when they "had it" in first grade. They seldom received instruction, but tested off the charts at the end of first grade and spent second grade mentoring peers and getting groomed for a successful GT application (also had a wonderful teacher that year that could keep them constructively involved).

We sent them to GT because everyone (teachers and outside counselors) said it was best and the FCPS base school counselor said they just couldn't properly support them at the base school. Unfortunately, GT was more of a disaster than success. While intensive in terms of content (Shakespeare in 4th grade), there was much less teacher supervision and surprisingly minimal instruction in certain areas. The kids were very competitive and vulnerable in the beginning. My child was even pushed the first week on playground equipment and ended up in ER (they insisted it was a fall and only 'fessed up many years later, but their teacher had no clue how it happened). I spent time in the classroom and tried to facilitate some outside activity for these new friends, but found that these kids picked on each other during lunch or while doing projects and they criticized things like their neighborhood (townhouse and apartment kids were ridiculed), sports (all star status required to play a sport at recess), clothes (A&F preferred), test and project scores (cross-grading and peer feedback often done which created some unrealistic critiques and expectations for students and much parent intervention to "perfect" projects), teacher recognition (play lead, group lead, etc. became very political and ultimately influenced by degree of parent involvement in the classroom).

Different teachers could improve the situation or make it intolerable, but they had very little tolerance for nor involvement in student dynamics (until 6th grade and then the teachers pushed the kids to date and got the parents to sponsor coed sleep overs for graduation). Overall, my student enjoyed the advanced literature, plays, math instruction and history instruction (when provided) at GT. They devoured their text books and loved to take tests, but science was almost always "kits" or projects that the kids had to do on their own or in groups (in one instance I discovered that the teachers had never even configured the kits so the students could do the experiments properly - my student was struggling to complete it and I came in after school to sit with them on the last day it was due - only to find that the kits had no batteries installed). Today, this kid can barely tolerate science.

Social sciences and history instruction also involved big group projects (which were problematic for my child since they were an athlete and had practice/meet restrictions that impacted meeting with peers after school and on weekends). At the end of 6th grade, my child decided that they had no interest in attending TJ and chose to go to base instead of the GT middle school program.

In their base middle school, they were one of a handful of kids that was accelerated to Algebra in 7th grade. Their middle school also decided to require the kids to take an online geometry class instead of receive instruction in 8th grade (other schools allowed the accelerated kids to go to the HS and take a language and geometry if parents could transport, but this middle school principal refused to allow parents to pursue this). The online kids had to sit in the back of an algebra class with laptops that weren't properly configured to reach the online site (took 2 months of complaining for the school to investigate) and could only reach their online teacher after school for a couple hours on one of two nights. Our student had an activity that caused him to miss one of these nights and the teacher often cancelled the other due to lack of participants. Major tests had to be taken on a week night at a school facility in Falls Church and the kids were graded on keeping a notebook full of printed course work that had to be produced before the midterm and final. If they did poorly on midterm or final, it was presumed that they must have had inappropriate help for quizzes and notebook work at home.

This "accelerated" math curriculum was a true nightmare and about 1/2 the kids in our school ended up dropping out while the principal insisted that no other parents were complaining. They continued to require future classes to endure the same online course, which wasn't even an Honors level of content!

Hitting HS, the math department notified us that these online geometry kids were consistently ill prepared for the Algebra II Honors class and many had trouble staying accelerated. The HS said that they would have gladly taken the middle school kids for math and a language and that it was only a problem with our middle school that prevented it from being an option. As for other HS courses, our student continued to do well with Honors and AP English/History courses, but was very wary of taking AP science classes and avoided group work where possible. They did well in Honors science, though. They were also able to continue with some athletics, but had to drop several activities to get through and spent some outside time taking math classes in summer and retook an online Honors geometry course (but not through FCPS) in order to strengthen their math base and still fit BC Calculus in during senior year.

If I had to do it over in second grade, I would have sought out a private elementary and middle school setting that allowed kids to work at their own pace in each subject area and supported mentor/mentee relationships among elementary age students (i.e., Montessori). Not sure if I would have advocated for private high school (our base high school was pretty great), but we sure could have done without the local elementary GT program. Home schooling could also have been an option with our child's athletic schedule, but they really craved the social aspect of going to school. In the end, our student ended up with the top FCPS AP diploma, tested into sophomore status in his first year at college, and got into their first choice in colleges early admission (but it wasn't a slam dunk).

My advice is to look at the whole picture for your kid. Are they self motivated to learn and the kind of kid to read ahead? Are they organized and can keep track of their assignments (this was the biggest factor in GT success for teachers)? Are they a teacher pleaser (critical to GT success)? Will others from their neighborhood/sports/activities go with them to the GT school? Do they have outside activities after school and on weekends that can interfere with group work? Can the parents be available during and after school to support their class load and their teachers (many GT teachers were highly dependent on parent support to get through the day)? How do they handle peer competition/criticism (can be a rude awakening to go from top of class to run of the mill)? How do you see middle and high school going for them (i.e., base school, TJ, private, athletics, etc.)?

Good luck!

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found out that GT is so overrated. I took the
> school administered IQ test to get into the GT
> program for Middle School, and they tried to say
> that I was too low. Then I took the real IQ test
> at George Mason University a few weeks later, and
> the results showed that I was extremely high up on
> the scale. So I ended up taking some GT classes (I
> decided against the GT center at Hughes), but by
> the time I was in 11th grade, I was only still
> taking one Honors class (Which is what they call
> GT nowadays). Honors simply took up too much extra
> time, and I didn't see how anyone learned anymore
> in it as opposed to "regular" classes. However, I
> really started enjoying school more when I became
> an Upperclassman, because I finally had accrued
> enough credits so that I had free periods (I would
> sometimes help-out in the office, or go home an
> hour forty-five minutes early). This in turn gave
> me more time to catch-up on work, and to take part
> in extracurricular activities (ie, Football).
>
> Btw, don't push too hard for advanced classes
> anyway. I took Algebra in 8th Grade, and that was
> a major mistake. It made me hate the subject, and
> I never received good grades in either Algebra I,
> or Algebra II (Which I took in 10th grade). In
> Geometry Honors, in 9th grade, I finished with a
> B+ average (The same with Honors Biology, Honors
> History, and Honors English), but having taken
> Algebra a year or two ahead of schedule really
> botched up that subject area.

Pack -

FCPS Parent asked about the GT center program. From your description, though you could have, you didn't attend either an ES or a MS center. MS classes called "Honors" aren't "full time Level IV", though there have been arguments about considering them GT & killing all the MS GT centers.

In MS, the GT center program doesn't include math any more. For math, kids take math based on standardized test results. All MS kids are placed and go to 7th/7th Honors/Honors Algebra 1, in 8th 8th/Honors Algebra 1/Honors Geometry. In 7th, Center kids are mixed in with non-Center kids, but Center kids who don't make the cut for Algebra automatically go to 7th Honors. A very small number of (usually GTC) 6th graders take Honors Algebra 1/Honors Geometry/Honors Algebra 2.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ThePackLeader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I found out that GT is so overrated. I took the
> > school administered IQ test to get into the GT
> > program for Middle School, and they tried to
> say
> > that I was too low. Then I took the real IQ
> test
> > at George Mason University a few weeks later,
> and
> > the results showed that I was extremely high up
> on
> > the scale. So I ended up taking some GT classes
> (I
> > decided against the GT center at Hughes), but
> by
> > the time I was in 11th grade, I was only still
> > taking one Honors class (Which is what they
> call
> > GT nowadays). Honors simply took up too much
> extra
> > time, and I didn't see how anyone learned
> anymore
> > in it as opposed to "regular" classes. However,
> I
> > really started enjoying school more when I
> became
> > an Upperclassman, because I finally had accrued
> > enough credits so that I had free periods (I
> would
> > sometimes help-out in the office, or go home an
> > hour forty-five minutes early). This in turn
> gave
> > me more time to catch-up on work, and to take
> part
> > in extracurricular activities (ie, Football).
> >
> > Btw, don't push too hard for advanced classes
> > anyway. I took Algebra in 8th Grade, and that
> was
> > a major mistake. It made me hate the subject,
> and
> > I never received good grades in either Algebra
> I,
> > or Algebra II (Which I took in 10th grade). In
> > Geometry Honors, in 9th grade, I finished with
> a
> > B+ average (The same with Honors Biology,
> Honors
> > History, and Honors English), but having taken
> > Algebra a year or two ahead of schedule really
> > botched up that subject area.
>
> Pack -
>
> FCPS Parent asked about the GT center program.
> From your description, though you could have, you
> didn't attend either an ES or a MS center. MS
> classes called "Honors" aren't "full time Level
> IV", though there have been arguments about
> considering them GT & killing all the MS GT
> centers.
>
> In MS, the GT center program doesn't include math
> any more. For math, kids take math based on
> standardized test results. All MS kids are placed
> and go to 7th/7th Honors/Honors Algebra 1, in 8th
> 8th/Honors Algebra 1/Honors Geometry. In 7th,
> Center kids are mixed in with non-Center kids, but
> Center kids who don't make the cut for Algebra
> automatically go to 7th Honors. A very small
> number of (usually GTC) 6th graders take Honors
> Algebra 1/Honors Geometry/Honors Algebra 2.

Westfield Dad,

My suggestion is to forget all the public school BS and teach your kid how to shoot. That appears to be the M.O. of your kids' peers.

GT is best for:

Asian kids who have the support structure at home and church to make it work.
Other girls who are academically motivated to work hard.

It is not for:

Boys in general. Their social skills will never recover.
Families where both parents work full time. Stay in general ed and spend more time together a a family without the added stress of school.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that getting into GT is like taking the winning path in the Game of Life.

GT Mom - your post is fascinating. And if your bold statements are accurate, it is really a reflection of how the public school system is not serving boys well.

My own view is that boys get motivated by competition - not elliptical notions of status and prestige - but real competition. That is often discouraged in the schools as there is a focus on projects and opportunities for kids to "express" themselves. These are not bad things, but the balance is out of kilter - boys need competition, lots of it, and without it they often get bored.

Wow this is a bit more complicated than I expected. My daughter tested at 152 and while she does well in school I don't the the sense that she's bored. She also likes extra curricular activities much more so than homework so I am worried that we'll have an unhappy child in the GT program. She goes to Silverbrook ES

FCPS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow this is a bit more complicated than I
> expected. My daughter tested at 152 and while she
> does well in school I don't the the sense that
> she's bored. She also likes extra curricular
> activities much more so than homework so I am
> worried that we'll have an unhappy child in the GT
> program. She goes to Silverbrook ES

According to the FCPS GT/AAP web site, Silverbrook ES has a Local Level IV program, so you have 3 options, GT Center, Silverbrook Local Level IV and Silverbrook general ed.

Given you have the LLIV option, you should join the fcag.org mailing list and ask about people's experience with Silverbrook LLIV vs Lorton Station GTC.

In general, a child who scored 152 will not find the GT (AA) Centers to be stressful. In fact, that would even have been true a decade plus ago, when the GT Centers were typically more challenging than they are now due to changes in the GT Center program.

In addition to joining the FCAG yahoo group (go to www.fcag.org and you'll see the link), I'd recommend going to the web sites for Silverbrook ES, Silverbrook's PTA, Lorton Station ES, and the Lorton Station ES PTA. There should be some information about PTA-sponsored and other activities on those web sites.

fascinating post Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GT Mom - your post is fascinating. And if your
> bold statements are accurate, it is really a
> reflection of how the public school system is not
> serving boys well.
>
> My own view is that boys get motivated by
> competition - not elliptical notions of status and
> prestige - but real competition. That is often
> discouraged in the schools as there is a focus on
> projects and opportunities for kids to "express"
> themselves. These are not bad things, but the
> balance is out of kilter - boys need competition,
> lots of it, and without it they often get bored.

Fully agree. Competing against others has been replaced with "doing your best work."

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wow this is a bit more complicated than I
> > expected. My daughter tested at 152 and while
> she
> > does well in school I don't the the sense that
> > she's bored. She also likes extra curricular
> > activities much more so than homework so I am
> > worried that we'll have an unhappy child in the
> GT
> > program. She goes to Silverbrook ES
>
> According to the FCPS GT/AAP web site, Silverbrook
> ES has a Local Level IV program, so you have 3
> options, GT Center, Silverbrook Local Level IV and
> Silverbrook general ed.
>
> Given you have the LLIV option, you should join
> the fcag.org mailing list and ask about people's
> experience with Silverbrook LLIV vs Lorton Station
> GTC.

So, do you take your kid to the outdoor range or indoor range?

I'm not sure what the state of GT is today, but I attended a GT center for fourth grade, performed at the top of my class (math was difficult since it was fifth grade curriculum) and, ultimately, decided to return to my base schools for fifth grade and beyond. I ended up at a top-ten for undergrad and enter law school in August--not trying to toot my own horn, just suggesting that GT had little to do with my success, and I have plenty of peers who did just fine without GT.

I'm inclined to believe that, had I stayed in the GT program, I would have ended up at TJ and, while that offers a truly great and unique academic education, breeds some very weird and unapproachable people. I encountered many in college and can say that I do not regret attending my base high school and just taking all of the AP courses it had to offer - then again, I value a social education as highly as I do an academic one.

None of that is to say that your child won't turn out perfectly well-rounded but, as far as I'm concerned, there is a significant "leveling out" that occurs after elementary school and the honors/AP environment should be sufficiently stimulating for the vast majority - which wasn't particularly your question, I realize.

I'd be lying to you if I said that, after returning to my base school for fifth grade, I wasn't frequently bored out of my mind from the slow pace and reviewing of material I had already learned the grade before. At the same time, my having not stayed in GT for fifth and sixth didn't really prevent me from doing well or realizing my potential.

In short, your kid will be fine either way.

I'm also a product of the GT system (third through eighth grades) and will second what D Grad says. If your kid is happy and doing well at her base school, by all means let her stay if you like. It won't keep her from succeeding in high school or getting into a top university.

And by all means, subscribe to the FCAG listserv if only to get a glimpse into a world of delusional helicopter parents beating their meat over CogAT and WISC scores and the like. Some of these people actually seem to believe the marketing claims that these tests are a reliable measure of intellect or "aptitude," despite the notable lack of science behind them.

OTOH, given the amount of discussion about how to game the system, others plainly understand that these tests do not measure how inherently quick a child's mind is, but rather a selection of knowledge and skills that can be acquired.

I would also back up GT Mom's caution about social skills. Success in any field can depend, often to a very great extent, on how well liked you are. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

GT Mom is absolutely correct. In my opinion, the GT program wasn't challenging curriculum wise, but it really pushed me to develop skills like discipline. I didn't get why my mom made such a big deal about it back then, going through my homework with me every night and forcing me to study for tests, but that kind of parent involvement is critical when you're trying to use GT to its full potential.

I didn't go to TJ after middle school because I wanted to be a 'normal kid', and it was a good choice because there is so much less competition for colleges and there are plenty of APs and honors to take. Also, I'm pretty lazy and still don't like to study.

My brother just finished 7th grade in the GT program and from what I've noticed, it's gotten a lot tougher with the workload. I barely did any huge projects or essays in middle school, and he's working on a new one every week (seriously the only strenuous work we did was Wordly Wise). But overall I'd recommend putting your child in GT, it opened up so many opportunities for me!

I was in GT courses at Terraset and enjoyed them. I would personally recommend GT programs in elementary school especially but I guess it might depend on the school.

I say just give it a try. It really can't hurt. If your child doesn't like it you can always pull them out.

What do you call the program where they pull you out of class in your elementary school once a week or so for a couple hours? I did that for 4-6 grade since I didn't go to the GT center in 3rd grade.

Speaking of which (and echoing some comments earlier), I'm not convinced that parents pushing someone to the GT center really helps them if they're not super qualified to begin with. I know plenty of people who went to the GT center for elementary who didn't end up getting into TJ. Leaving my peer group to go there in 9th grade was fine, but I'm glad I stayed at my nearby elementary that I could walk to with all my next door neighbors.

Oh, and to the person who wrote:
> "I didn't go to TJ after middle school because I wanted to be a 'normal kid'"

While it is true there are some 'interesting' kids at TJ, going there doesn't make you abnormal. If you're fairly normal going in, it's not going to reprogram you into some horrible, socially inept and awkward person.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2010 09:57AM by snowdenscold.

In the 70's, 80's homogenous grouping of students was the cutting edge and "tracking" was a dirty word. So to avoid admitting a huge mistake GT programs were created. In essence GT programs and schools like TJ are tracking. In all honesty, the AP classes are now what used to be regular classes. It has become necessary to water down the curriculum a great deal in order for every student to find success in regular classes. Teachers have been admonished for too many students getting less than a C, regardless of student participation or performance!

A number of kids who did not follow the GT route have done very well, gone on to excellent colleges and did well there also. Believe me, there are a lot of TJ kids who are not truely gifted, albeit highly motivated and hard working. Gifted and hard working are not the same thing. On the other hand I do believe that the atmosphere at TJ is conducive to promoting hard work, which ain't a bad thing. On the other hand there are quotas to ensure that minorities are represented at TJ, never openly acknowledged though. Of course, Asian kids aren't considered minorities because as a group they perform above the norm.

A final rant on this subject, projects are often very nicely done presentations that parents put together and don't really reflect any real learning. For the most part group projects are done by 1 or 2 students and the rest make little or no contribution. For those of you with kids still in school and do group projects, just ask them.

I totally agree that group projects look nice and make nice displays in libraries and hallways when "high level" visitors show up---but it's questionable how much students learn from them. I guess they learn how to make a visual presentation. My son learned how to get in groups with people who do the actual work (he's always in a group with girls who take the project home)---so I guess he's smart that way.

He was in the "pull out" GT program in elementary school. What a waste that was. He missed whatever was going on in the regular classroom and the GT period seemed unrelated to the curriculum in the classroom. I tried to pull him out and the GT teacher tried to keep him in (her job would go kaput if people pulled their kids out). His bright spot was music and band (band was a "pull out" also and that was enough "pull out" for him---and one that he really enjoyed). He is now a sophomore and music is still a love for him (he is in band at high school). I found it ironic that the superintendent tried to get rid of elementary band and strings to save money and nothing was said about this "pull out" GT program. Back in my elementary days there was no GT in elementary. Tracking didn't start until MS. If you needed more challenge, you went to the library and the librarian gave you books and discussed them with you. You were also given higher level materials in the classroom. I don't think this system held me back from getting into a good college and becoming a professional. As someone said on this thread, either way you'll be fine. The most important motivation in life comes, in the end, from inside of each of us.

> Oh, and to the person who wrote:
> > "I didn't go to TJ after middle school because I
> wanted to be a 'normal kid'"
>
> While it is true there are some 'interesting' kids
> at TJ, going there doesn't make you abnormal. If
> you're fairly normal going in, it's not going to
> reprogram you into some horrible, socially inept
> and awkward person.

I didn't mean it in a bad way, more than half of my group of middle school friends went off to TJ and they are great and not socially inept. I had just had some delusion in 8th grade that I would have no time for hanging out with friends and being a normal teenager. This is somewhat true, a girl that I work with used to that school recently explained extensively the workload they were given weekly- millions of times more than I had, even taking all honors and AP. I just didn't have the motivation to invest everything into school.

In the 1980s, as the GT program evolved, my brother was accepted into the program. Smart guy, he knows his stuff, esp. mathematics!

Fast forward three decades...

Unemployed for the past three years, he was underemployed for two years before that...

Social skills are a mess, he's now on his second marriage...

I also have a child that will be starting there first year in this program.
I was told not to help with homework so they could judge the speed a which my child learns. This will allow them to taylor a learn program just for that childs
needs. Remember if you feel it is to difficult you can always put your child back
in regular school.
Just pay attention and ask questions.
goog luck

A couple things to consider. For our GT center, the kid has to ride 40 mins on the bus to get there, which I think is a bad thing. And the classes have 30-35 kids. So it had better be worth it considering these negatives. And one kid we know got in after an appeal by the Mom - you get alot of those. Like the base-school teachers didn't know what they were doing when not recommending little Johhny just because he is an asshole and nobody likes him, but he was jammed in there nonetheless by an ambitious parent, who isn't much better than him personality-wise BTW.

I heard from a very reputable source (GT central office staff employee) that half the kids in the GT elementary centers are there based on those parent appeals (and not on their initial test scores and recommendations). It makes you think that the GT centers have more to do with the parents than the kids.

Fairfax: where the fax show it's not fair.

not fair in fairfax Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I heard from a very reputable source (GT central
> office staff employee) that half the kids in the
> GT elementary centers are there based on those
> parent appeals (and not on their initial test
> scores and recommendations). It makes you think
> that the GT centers have more to do with the
> parents than the kids.
>
> Fairfax: where the fax show it's not fair.


I'd believe it. My mother did not think very highly of the girl we know who did it years ago (or her mom, rather).

not fair in fairfax Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I heard from a very reputable source (GT central
> office staff employee) that half the kids in the
> GT elementary centers are there based on those
> parent appeals (and not on their initial test
> scores and recommendations). It makes you think
> that the GT centers have more to do with the
> parents than the kids.
>
> Fairfax: where the fax show it's not fair.

Yeah, should read the FCAG forum. Lotsa parents asking for advises on how their kids can take alternative tests to prove that their kids are really gifted...after their kids couldn't get the necessary score on the cogat/nnat. It's pretty well understood that if you really want your kids to be in GT, you will find a way to get them in even if they're borderline retarded. Keep comparing their kids to Einstein and other geniuses that has ADHD or dyslexic and couldn't do well on tests, but really is super smart.

I did read it and was surprised how many got in after an appeal even if the kid had an extremely low Gifted Behavior Rating Scale score. These are students who may benefit from the program, but can't contribute to classroom discussions because they are wallflowers and have no personality.

I went through the program. I was fortunate that it was at my home school. Sounds like class sizes might've increased since the 90s, but we started in 3rd grade with 12 students, and ended up with 18-20 in 6th grade. Had a great 3rd grade teacher, and great 5th/6th teacher (had the same one for both of those years). 4th was not as good, but there are always better and worse teachers.

We had a reunion a couple years ago in the winter after we graduated from college. The 3rd grade and 5th/6th teachers both came and we shared beers and caught up.

I don't remember too much... I know I was the fastest at multiplication tables in 3rd grade, lol. We did those 24 cards where there are 4 numbers on them and you have to add/subtract/multiply/divide to make 24. In 5th and 6th we had class meetings once a week, where we voted on (unimportant) things and learned parliamentary procedure in the process. One time we had a project to make a cabin from some book we were reading... my dad did most of that project (but it looked really good, haha). The teachers aren't stupid, they can tell how much your parents helped and you won't get downgraded for doing something on your own.

the kids went to college at generally good schools. VT, W&M, UVA, JMU, Stanford, MIT, American off the top of my head. Most are in graduate school or have solid jobs.

>>>GT is best for:

Asian kids who have the support structure at home and church to make it work.
Other girls who are academically motivated to work hard.

It is not for:

Boys in general. Their social skills will never recover.
Families where both parents work full time. Stay in general ed and spend more time together a a family without the added stress of school.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that getting into GT is like taking the winning path in the Game of Life.<<<

Schools in general are not boy friendly. Girls do better at every level, from kindergarten through graduate school. GT centers are no different in that regard but they are better for boys who are so smart and seen as
'different' in their base schools. GT centers have many unusual boys who love math, computers, and have esoteric interests that are not usually found at base schools. Those boys find friends at GT centers because there are other boys like them. I don't see how that hurts their social skills to have friends who share their interests.

Perfectionist girls may have some problems in GT classes where there may be some extra assignments. If your daughter spends hours making every bit of homework perfect, she may be stressed by a GT center. I say perfectionist girls because I never saw boys like that but lots of GT girls are.

GT centers are not nearly as academically challenging as they used to be. Twenty years ago less than 5% of children went to GT centers. Those were unusual children who really needed more advanced work than was available at the local school. Now the program has been expanded to about 15% of students in FCPS's never ending efforts to get more Black students into GT programs. Most GT centers have remedial reading and writing classes available because there are students in the GT centers who are not even at grade level, much less advanced. So there is little need to worry about overly difficult academics at a GT center.

>>>>I did read it and was surprised how many got in after an appeal even if the kid had an extremely low Gifted Behavior Rating Scale score. These are students who may benefit from the program, but can't contribute to classroom discussions because they are wallflowers and have no personality.<<<<

Gifted behavior Rating Scale should be called 'How much the teacher likes my kid scale' since that's all it is. It's a way to get the less bright child into a GT Center, those kids who are the right race, but don't do well on tests or in academics. The teacher can give him high scores for things like
'creativity", art work, playing the drum, social skills, and physical coordination. A high enough subjective rating from the teacher can overcome such things as not being so gifted in academics, or, as they like to say, his giftedness, and even ability to read, has not yet 'emerged' but the teacher is hoping that it will in the GT center. That's why they have remedial reading classes in GT centers. Students are sent to the GT centers who can't read! But only if they are one of the chosen races. In FCPS race is more important than actually meeting the academic needs of kids. Crazy.

>>>hese are students who may benefit from the program, but can't contribute to classroom discussions because they are wallflowers and have no personality.<<<<

Hey, why shouldn't shy kids, ''wallflowers'' as you call them, have their academic needs met? Not everyone can be a bubbly, outgoing, girl. That doesn't mean they shouldn't get into GT programs if they need that level of work. I'd rather have the smartest doctor, even if he was never voted ''most popular'' or most outgoing.

in the 22039 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the 1980s, as the GT program evolved, my
> brother was accepted into the program. Smart guy,
> he knows his stuff, esp. mathematics!
>
> Fast forward three decades...
>
> Unemployed for the past three years, he was
> underemployed for two years before that...
>
> Social skills are a mess, he's now on his second
> marriage...

Your parents should have gotten him help with social skills. I doubt that being in a GT center caused his problems or that remaining in his base school would have fixed his lack of social skills. He has a social problem, not an academic problem.

Most Americans, nearly 60%, are divorced at some time in their lives. Being married twice proves absolutely nothing, certainly nothing about GT centers.

NegativeDreamStealer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would also back up GT Mom's caution about social
> skills. Success in any field can depend, often to
> a very great extent, on how well liked you are.
> Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

GT centers don't zap social skills out of kids! How would they? A social child going into a GT center will still be a social child coming out of a GT center. A shy child, with only one or two close friends, going into a GT center, is likely to remain a shy child with only a few close friends, coming out of the GT centers. Parents need to help kids develop social skills, assuming that parents have those skills and can teach them to their children. If not, it doesn't make a wit of difference if the kid goes to a GT center or stays in his base school. He is who he is.

Elementary and Middle ain't shit. Make your child take 10-15 AP classes in his junior and senior year and make sure he gets 2100+ on the SAT. Now there's a real challenge.

Get real about GT schools Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GT centers don't zap social skills out of kids!
> How would they? A social child going into a GT
> center will still be a social child coming out of
> a GT center.

Are you, personally, a former student of the Fairfax GT program?

Of course a GT center won't change a child's personality. But put a bunch of kids together for four years (it's the elementary years where this happens), allow them to be as weird as they want to be, and see if they don't enter seventh grade with a bunch of behavioral habits they'll need to un-learn if they don't want to get their asses kicked on a daily basis.

This may be less of an issue today given the great diversity among "GT" students. (There's one hell of a big difference between the less than one percent who are highly and profoundly gifted, and everyone else.)

What it was............... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Twenty years ago
> less than 5% of children went to GT centers.

When the program first started, nearly 40 years ago, it was less than 1 percent.

> Now the program has been expanded to
> about 15% of students in FCPS's never ending
> efforts to get more Black students into GT
> programs.

Are you fucking serious?

^^ this is so true. It used to be a program for "gifted and talented" now it seems full of kids who are merely above averge but whose parents paid money to a psychologist to admisnister a WISC test which, by golly, confirmed that their kid is in fact quite special despite the CogAt and school techers filure to detect this quality.

Yes, I heard about a child who was actually recommended for Special Education testing while she was at the GT elementary center (they call these students "double special" or something weird like that). I'm not making this up.

This makes you want to go back to "Little House on the Prairie".

Get real about GT schools Wrote:
't be that way, but it is.
>
> GT centers don't zap social skills out of kids!
> How would they? A social child going into a GT
> center will still be a social child coming out of
> a GT center. A shy child, with only one or two
> close friends, going into a GT center, is likely
> to remain a shy child with only a few close
> friends, coming out of the GT centers. Parents
> need to help kids develop social skills, assuming
> that parents have those skills and can teach them
> to their children. If not, it doesn't make a wit
> of difference if the kid goes to a GT center or
> stays in his base school. He is who he is.

That might seem true to you, but not in real life. Peer pressure and social standards are different in the GT elementary grades. I personally know two boys who were normal outgoing children in 2nd grade; they became stifled, lonely, and withdrawn in the GT center, and returned to their base school for 5th and 6th grades where they eventually became socially confident again.

Gets better Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I heard about a child who was actually
> recommended for Special Education testing while
> she was at the GT elementary center (they call
> these students "double special" or something weird
> like that). I'm not making this up.

The phrase is "twice exceptional" or 2E.

Don't cross those parents. They really believe that they are doing what's best for their kids, who suffer every day because of it. I know, blanket statement, doesn't apply to all of them.

Students can definitely be eligible for GT services AND Special Education services.
I don't see anything wrong with this.

Children with Asperger's Syndrome come to mind for twice exceptional.

terelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Children with Asperger's Syndrome come to mind for
> twice exceptional.

Excellent example. Asperger kids are characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. They may also be gifted, or talented, in one or more areas. In some cases extremely off-the-scale talented. But putting them into a GT center is like pounding a square peg into a round hole. You can make them fit, but it's a painful and unnecessary experience for all involved. Asperger kids often do their best work independently, especially when allowed to focus by themselves for ungodly long hours. The GT Center curiculum invests lots of time into collaberative projects among students with limited teacher intervention and short time limits. The Asperger kids hate working this way and often withdraw further because of it. Better for them to work with GT and other specialists in their base school where they can be provided the independent study environment where they can excel. The GT classroom is designed for kids who think outside the box but live within social norms.

Yet too many Asperger parents approach the situation with an attitude that their kid is a genius; therefore they belong in a GT center followed by TJ and the anti-social behavior must be tolerated, even when it disrupts the classroom. They are wrong, and their kids suffer because of it.

What's wrong with shy kids? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd rather have the smartest doctor, even if he was never voted
> ''most popular'' or most outgoing.

The smartest doctor who does not possess social values is a scary person indeed.

GT Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's wrong with shy kids? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'd rather have the smartest doctor, even if he
> was never voted
> > ''most popular'' or most outgoing.
>
> The smartest doctor who does not possess social
> values is a scary person indeed.

Well said ma'am. "Smartest" means little; they are all reasonably smart and they all passed their boards and are licensed to practice. But I want one with personal qualities that go much farther, like character, ethics, caring, intellectual curiosity, ability to focus on complex problems for long periods of time, etc. Same as in the GT program.

Ditto:

If only that were the same as in the GT program.

It seems like the GT program is not fully explained to parents and they are forced to ask neighbors, this forum, or whomever what it is exactly.

From what I have read here, it is a "project based" type of education which is not especially friendly to many boys. It also seems that parents must be highly involved in it.

I noticed that they have renamed it "Advanced Academics". Maybe they are trying to give it a name that helps to define it better? Or maybe they are hoping to get it to be more advanced academically and less "projecty" (enrichment only)?? I don't think a name change will change the program itself.

Ditto: I would hope that you could get personal qualities like character, ethics, caring, intellectual curiosity, ability to focus on complex problems at a "mainstream school" and those things are not the domain of the "GT centers". If not, we're in sort of a mess since 85% of the kids go to "mainstream schools". Or maybe only "smart" kids can have those personal qualities???

As for doctors---if someone is operating on me, I want that person to be highly skilled at that operation---which is probably mostly going to be based on work experience---not charm school qualities. If I want someone to hold my hand and be caring, I'll probably ask a relative or my spiritual counselor to come to the operation.

Ditto:

Good luck finding a doctor to meet all those qualifications. Do you interview them first?

to ditto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ditto:
>
> Good luck finding a doctor to meet all those
> qualifications. Do you interview them first?

well do you ask them how smart they are?

TBH, I belong to n HMO so I mainly have to take whatever I get.

read the thread Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems like the GT program is not fully
> explained to parents and they are forced to ask
> neighbors, this forum, or whomever what it is
> exactly.
>
> From what I have read here, it is a "project
> based" type of education which is not especially
> friendly to many boys. It also seems that parents
> must be highly involved in it.
>
> I noticed that they have renamed it "Advanced
> Academics". Maybe they are trying to give it a
> name that helps to define it better? Or maybe
> they are hoping to get it to be more advanced
> academically and less "projecty" (enrichment
> only)?? I don't think a name change will change
> the program itself.
>
> Ditto: I would hope that you could get personal
> qualities like character, ethics, caring,
> intellectual curiosity, ability to focus on
> complex problems at a "mainstream school" and
> those things are not the domain of the "GT
> centers". If not, we're in sort of a mess since
> 85% of the kids go to "mainstream schools". Or
> maybe only "smart" kids can have those personal
> qualities???
>
> As for doctors---if someone is operating on me, I
> want that person to be highly skilled at that
> operation---which is probably mostly going to be
> based on work experience---not charm school
> qualities. If I want someone to hold my hand and
> be caring, I'll probably ask a relative or my
> spiritual counselor to come to the operation.

Highly skilled, yes. Smartest, how would you know?
This is kinda my point. The students should be judged by their performnce, incl. oral and written communiction. These tests which ask second or third grader to figure out where the dot would be when a piece of paper is unfolded proves little. If they let kids in based just on those kind of test scores,they're getting too narrow a slice of kids, IMHO.

They're getting 15% of the kids in FCPS. How much wider should they go?

Some people think they should just put in 100% of the kids---just ramp up the school standards.

pt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're getting 15% of the kids in FCPS. How much
> wider should they go?
>
> Some people think they should just put in 100% of
> the kids---just ramp up the school standards.

I think the County has the right to shape its program however it wants. You have the right to attend if you are accepted or not to attend. From what I've read, the program is much better than Montgomery County's.

Ditto:

Are you smoking something? You said:

The students should be judged by their performnce, incl. oral and written communiction. These tests which ask second or third grader to figure out where the dot would be when a piece of paper is unfolded proves little. If they let kids in based just on those kind of test scores,they're getting too narrow a slice of kids, IMHO.


Now you are saying "the county has the right to shape its program however it wants". ???

Are we discussing the GT program or what?

You are about as comprehensible as most politicians.

pt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ditto:
>
> Are you smoking something? You said:
>
> The students should be judged by their performnce,
> incl. oral and written communiction. These tests
> which ask second or third grader to figure out
> where the dot would be when a piece of paper is
> unfolded proves little. If they let kids in based
> just on those kind of test scores,they're getting
> too narrow a slice of kids, IMHO.
>
>
> Now you are saying "the county has the right to
> shape its program however it wants". ???
>
> Are we discussing the GT program or what?
>
> You are about as comprehensible as most
> politicians.

I think they let too many kids in on appeal who did not get high enough CogAT/NNAT and teacher recommendtion scores, thus the class sizes are too big in some cases, but you gotta admit the County does have the right to shape its program as it sees fit. I'm not disgruntled enough to pull my kid out. You?

I don't have a kid in the program. My kids are grown amd successful. They were never in this program. I'm disgruntled because I have to pay for something that I think has marginal value. I'm disgruntled because this program causes contentiousness in communities. I'm disgruntled because other programs are put up for cuts and the value of this one has not really been proven to me or other voters (or even really evaluated in a meaningful way). I'm disgruntled because America is becoming a very divided country and this type of program further divides people and communities.

The county has rights----BUT it also has responsibilities. "The county" is a vague term. In this case it is the FCPS administrators in charge of GT. They serve at the behest of the school board and, by extension, the citizens of this county. They must listen to citizens and taxpayers as they "shape their program". I don't think they can just do things "as they see fit". They do seem to behave this way however. But there is a reason we have an "elected" school board----it's to give a voice to citizens---which doesn't seem to be happening very effectively in recent years.

pt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't have a kid in the program. My kids are
> grown amd successful. They were never in this
> program. I'm disgruntled because I have to pay
> for something that I think has marginal value.
> I'm disgruntled because this program causes
> contentiousness in communities. I'm disgruntled
> because other programs are put up for cuts and the
> value of this one has not really been proven to me
> or other voters (or even really evaluated in a
> meaningful way). I'm disgruntled because America
> is becoming a very divided country and this type
> of program further divides people and communities.
>
>
> The county has rights----BUT it also has
> responsibilities. "The county" is a vague term.
> In this case it is the FCPS administrators in
> charge of GT. They serve at the behest of the
> school board and, by extension, the citizens of
> this county. They must listen to citizens and
> taxpayers as they "shape their program". I don't
> think they can just do things "as they see fit".
> They do seem to behave this way however. But
> there is a reason we have an "elected" school
> board----it's to give a voice to citizens---which
> doesn't seem to be happening very effectively in
> recent years.


very well said pt, and I agree with much of that.

But we have this couple in my neighborhood - successful people in thier own right - who, when their daughter was rejected for the GT program, actually went out and hired a lawyer - I kid you not - because apparently they thought they had some legal recourse to the FCPS's decision. Eventually their kid got in. So some people consider this to be a big deal. I suspect it's because there are so many high achiever parents in this area who want their kids to have an "edge," and they will push hard enough so the FCPS accomodates them.

There is no "edge" to GT in elementary school. Everyone panics in 3rd grade when their kid doesnt' get in and they appeal, etc. What those parents should be doing is looking to the parents of older kids in their neighborhood. Those of us who have been there/done that can explain alot. First of all, only one of the kids who went to the gt center from our ES got into TJ for high school. The rest (about 20 kids) ended up back at their base high school! FYI, out of 110 3rd graders that year I was surprised that 20 were gifted, when the year before only 4 kids got into the gt center. Oh, but that reminds me....that was the year they completed the expansion of the GT center for our area and all of a sudden there were a boatload more gt students!
The GT centers exist to make parents feel better about themselves.

hs parent has the right perspective. This is why I question the money spent on this program (as a taxpayer). I don't believe there is enough "value added" to make this thing worth it.

pt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hs parent has the right perspective. This is why
> I question the money spent on this program (as a
> taxpayer). I don't believe there is enough "value
> added" to make this thing worth it.

Do you want to live in a society that has scientists, engineers, and so on? Then somebody has to take academics above the average person.

Do you oppose sports? Should we eliminate all the teams that the actual athletes are in, and only let them take the regular PE classes that everyone takes, where you just dick around with a ball? Eliminate orchestra because most kids can't play the violin?

You mean we won't have scientists or engineers if we don't have elementary GT programs? I'm not opposed to sports or orchestra. Sports and orchestra don't require that kids get bused to a different school outside of their neighborhoods. They don't have a big central office administration for sports or music. They don't have to add on to schools for sports and orchestra. Also anyone can take orchestra---there isn't a test to get in. Of course it seems that if you hire a lawyer you can get into the GT program (if in fact it gets your kid to be an engineer or scientist, maybe it's worth getting the lawyer).

Academics above the average are already available at all the high schools (AP and IB)---and, as a previous poster said, there is no "edge" to elementary GT centers.

Believe it or not, lots of scientists and engineers did not go to GT elementary centers (I don't think such things existed even 20 years ago). In fact I know an engineer who is at Northrop Grumman right now and he was never identified for GT elementary in FFX. I also have a niece who was never in GT, but is now working on her PhD in Geology/Climate research right now (she was a Phi Beta Kappa). She's definitely a scientist.

I was in the GT program at Bull Run ES and I loved it. I was in GT for 3rd through 6th grad and then I also went to the middle school (Rocky Run) that had GT for my area. My 6th grade teacher was the best teacher I've ever had and a lot of that was due to the fact that she treated us as young adults and people capable of thought, not was small children like most adults then did. In my GT classes our projects were more involved than those in the regular classes, but most of the work was during school hours. The great thing about being in GT was that we would move through the regular curriculum more quickly than the other classes, so we would have time to learn more stuff and learn in more fun ways. For example, many of our history units were done as simulations. We would be put in teams and over the course of several weeks we would, say, race our ships across the Atlantic to get to America, for the colonial unit. We would get points for different assignments and stuff like that. However, I went and helped out in the GT classes at Bull Run last year and I was saddened to find that many of the students in the classes were only there because their parents appealed for them to be there. So, my advice to you is ask your child whether or not they want to be in GT. If it's a place they want to be, they can thrive, make lots of friends, learn a lot and have a lot of fun. And don't worry about the homework: if my experience is still the norm, than they will be fine. My parents literally never helped me once with my homework the entire time I was in GT. I ended up fine, taking lots of APs in high school and going to an Ivy League university. And several of my friends who went to TJ (I didn't go there) are also great people and have completely normal and adequate social skills. If your child got in on their own (without your appeal) and they like the idea, than they will be fine. If not, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the regular classes, either.

How does a rising 3rd grader (8 years old) know if he/she wants to go into GT? If the parent can't figure it out, how can the kid?

kidding? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How does a rising 3rd grader (8 years old) know if
> he/she wants to go into GT? If the parent can't
> figure it out, how can the kid?

I'm sure what was meant is that some kids will object to leaving their neighborhood school where they have friends to go to new school. I've heard some parents say they decided not to attend the GT centers for that very reason. Makes sense to me.

GT grad:

Are you a scientist or engineer right now? What was your major in college? Do you think the GT program had an excellent curriculum in math and science in elementary?

My experience has been (in general) that FCPS does not have a strong science curriculum in elementary. I'm wondering if science is better at the elementary GT centers. Do they use the same science curriculum in GT?

We do need more engineers and scientists that are US born---that is true.

According to the Washington Post, Zachary Chesser (American "terrorist"), was a GT program kid (Kilmer Elementary). I'm sure the program didn't make him who he is now. You're gonna be whoever you're gonna be whether you to to GT or not. He sounds like he had a hard time finding his place in life . . .

Oops. I meant Kilmer Middle School (a GT center).

Nice thread and I'd like to chime in regarding another reason why parents strive to get their kids into the G/T program. It's the perception that they're being held back in regular school programs where material is taught in a repetitive manner to ensure the lowest performers succeed.

My daughter was accepted into GT going into 3rd grade next year and I don't view it as a status symbol although I recognize that many parents do. My daughter wasn't the "brightest" in her class in 2nd grade, but she was bored with the work and spent much of her time assisting other children. In my mind, keeping her in the regular curriculum is holding her back. I want her to learn new things and be challenged, not to spend much of her time being a teacher's assistant.

Our daughter was hurt in 1st grade by a new teacher that wanted to teach an alternate method of learning and I was convinced by my wife to give her methods a try. Big mistake, I believe the lack of structure and attention to individual students needs were actually responsible for my daughter regressing in a number of areas. Speaking with parents in the neighborhood, they will share stories of how students are lucky to get a specific group of teachers in a specific grade, but they're in for a long year if they get Mr./Mrs. ________. I can't take that risk in good conscience. We were blessed in 2nd grade with a pair of wonderful teachers that discreetly divided up their two classes into two groups and provided additional challenges to the higher performers while assuring the lessons were taught in full to the other group. Everyone benefited in this format imho.

fwiw I was a product of the FCPS G/T program in the 80's and I struggled through the program, not because I wasn't the "brightest" but mainly due to poor work ethic. I don't think I was ever really called out for it until my 2nd year of college, where an English professor really laid into me. Great guy that was able to motivate me like no other to that point. It is my hope that I can provide better structure for my daughter to avoid the same fate.

You are trusting that EVERY g/t teacher is fabulous! I'm sure the the same issues exist with teachers at g/t centers as they do at "regular" elementary schools.

fwiw I was a product of the FCPS G/T program in the 80's and I struggled through the program, not because I wasn't the "brightest" but mainly due to poor work ethic. I don't think I was ever really called out for it until my 2nd year of college, where an English professor really laid into me. Great guy that was able to motivate me like no other to that point. It is my hope that I can provide better structure for my daughter to avoid the same fate.



Maybe you just weren't ready to hear criticism about your poor work ethic until your second year in college? Maybe it didn't have to do with someone suddenly telling you at that point? Surely, someone else must have seen it before then?

You can hope all kinds of things for your kid, but sometimes your kid will be him/herself and you just have to live through their childhood. I think we would like to believe we can control these things---but not so sure we can (especially true of GT parents). Relax. Your daughter will be fine.

hsparent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are trusting that EVERY g/t teacher is
> fabulous! I'm sure the the same issues exist with
> teachers at g/t centers as they do at "regular"
> elementary schools.

True, the point being that she will be among her peers of a group of kids who at least are interested in learning (I hope).

sometimes kids will be themselves Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe you just weren't ready to hear criticism
> about your poor work ethic until your second year
> in college? Maybe it didn't have to do with
> someone suddenly telling you at that point?
> Surely, someone else must have seen it before
> then?

Can't argue that, I was immature as hell through my freshman year. Could even be argued I wasn't ready for college.

> You can hope all kinds of things for your kid, but
> sometimes your kid will be him/herself and you
> just have to live through their childhood. I
> think we would like to believe we can control
> these things---but not so sure we can (especially
> true of GT parents). Relax. Your daughter will
> be fine.

Thanks, just trying to put her into the best situation possible. We really were not happy with the education she was getting and were looking at making a difficult choice of a private school if she didn't get into GT. (Yes, that's another topic) Just don't want her to make the same mistakes I did...

hsparent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are trusting that EVERY g/t teacher is
> fabulous!

Some are, some aren't, and at least one is horrible. And, of course, for some teachers, it really depends on the kid.

Had one who was very unstructured, probably 2E. One of the best teachers my kid ever had, other kids (and their parents...) went crazy. Had another who really played favorites and my kid was one of the least favorites. Came home saying there was another kid in the class the teacher hated even more, it was hard to believe, but there was one.

Good points. The teacher can really make a huge difference. Talk to other parents about the teachers at both the "regular" and "GT" school. That might help.

I am a parent of a 1st grader who will take the exams in a few months. Every parent has the option to "opt" out of the program if they feel so strongly against it. I know several young students who are currently at, or graduated from the GT program and they are happy, well-adjusted individuals. Consider that much of the fault some parents may find with the GT schools may actually be in the at-home parenting they receive and NOT from the GT centers at all.

"I am a parent of a 1st grader who will take the exams in a few months. Every parent has the option to "opt" out of the program if they feel so strongly against it. I know several young students who are currently at, or graduated from the GT program and they are happy, well-adjusted individuals. Consider that much of the fault some parents may find with the GT schools may actually be in the at-home parenting they receive and NOT from the GT centers at all."


Why does someone always have to be "at fault"?? Can it just be that someone is not suited for a particular program??

My older child is attending GT in Grade 7 and has been on the Level 1V GT program since Grade 3.

This is a fantastic program and really allows kids to take off. We did not spend any extra time with our child. There are children of all levels in the program and they feed off each other.

My advice is to move forward with the enrollment and have no concerns at all!

Thank You

my 2nd grade teacher recommended me for the gt program and i went to a GTC school for all of 3rd-6th grade, then i chose to go to the GT middle school in my area.

there will always be shy kids, there will always be outgoing kids, GT is NOT going to change that. there were only two gt classes for each grade level my elementary school and they did EVERYTHING together, so us gt kids might have been a little limited there because we didn't get many chances to interact with as many different people, but i honestly don't think that it affected us at all. our student to teacher ratio wasn't a crazy 35:1, we had about 25 kids in each class. and about not being able to handle it, i only ever knew one kid that opted out of gt (this new guy in fifth grade that honestly didn't belong there) everyone else did just fine, whether they joined in 3rd grade like i did, or 6th grade like some of my friends. if your kid gets accepted into gt, they should at least try, or if you're really against it, you could try to have them skip a grade. one of my friends in second grade who got accepted into the GT programs decided to skip 3rd grade instead of switching to the GTC school.

gt middle school was a good decision for me, in middle school there are a lot more opportunities to interact with other kids while still being challenged on the GT level. in ES i think we were a little too sheltered. the only bad part that i see about a GT middle school is that may not be your base school, so the transition from middle to high school (which im going through right now ) can be really tough. not academically(honestly im taking all honors and my classes are so easy that i just cant stand it) but socially. Im not very close friends with any of the people in my neighborhood and i havent met like 98% of the kids at my high school since second grade, so if your shy or you have touble making friendss, 9th grade is going to suck. but hey, you have to think about all that later.

What's the point if you get to 9th grade and all of your classes are so easy that you can't stand it? It sounds like there's a problem at the 9th grade level then? What school do you go to for HS?

During second grade, my parents asked me if I wanted to go to the GT center as I had already been going to GT class at Lees Corner. I said yes and was transfered to Greenbriar West. The only thing that I thought was advanced was the math class. Sometimes we did more advanced stuff but only every now and then. The school gave me a third grade math textbook to look over during the summer. I never even opened it. There were always two different GT teachers that would switch off for different subject. For example, one teacher would teach math and science while the other taught lang. arts and history. It was pretty cool always knowing that the 50-60 kids were going to be in one of your classes. We didn't really hang out with the non-GT kids as the classes were never coinciding in anything. GT kids mainly kept to the GT kids unless you were from GBW in the first place. The one thing that really set apart us was 6th grade. We all took the Iowa Aptitude Test which had you score in some percentile. It had to be above 95 or something. I believe mine was 97. If you got high enough on this test, you then took the 8th grade math SOL. If you passed at some level, you then were able to take Algebra 1 HN in 7th grade which is what I ended up doing. If you did not pass the SOL high enough or did not pass the Iowa high enough, you took Math 7 HN in 7th grade. A lot of my friends did not take Algebra. The one thing that did suck was middle school. I went to Rachel Carson because apparently they were the only ms that offered Algebra 1 HN close enough to my house. I basically ended up with less than half of my GT friends from GBW while most went to Rocky Run. It was pretty hard to make brand new friends at a school that quickly. After 8th grade, about half of the kids from GBW that went to RCMS actually went to Chantilly where I am now. It was pretty awesome seeing my old GBW/Rocky Run friends again.

Also, don't be fooled by RCMS if your kid goes there. It is not a GT-only school as my parents originally thought. I am pretty sure there were some kids there as dumb as rocks.

I didn't think any of the middle schools were GT-only. ??? Isn't GT a program within the school (not the entire school)? Were your parents looking for a GT only school? That would probably be TJ.

I went through the GT program from 4th through 8th grade and must say that it is a great thing to experience. I highly encourage it!

Thats why I said it wasn't. The school was simply a lot better than franklin (my district)

Both my kids went to an FCPS GT Center where the average IQ was 150. Most of their classmates went on to Longfellow MS's GT program and over 80% went on to TJ. It was rigorous and rewarding. Don't fool yourself into thinking your child is ready for a GT Center unless you are willing to put in the effort that goes with ensuring academic success in a very challenging environment. If your child is ready he will thrive, if he is not it will be a miserable demoralizing experience.

HokieMom,

Your children must be at least in their 30s! The average Cognitive Abilities Test score of students admitted to the GT CEnters over the last 6-8 years has been around 120. Even for students admitted back in the 1990s, it was about 130.


HokieMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both my kids went to an FCPS GT Center where the
> average IQ was 150. Most of their classmates went
> on to Longfellow MS's GT program and over 80% went
> on to TJ. It was rigorous and rewarding. Don't
> fool yourself into thinking your child is ready
> for a GT Center unless you are willing to put in
> the effort that goes with ensuring academic
> success in a very challenging environment. If
> your child is ready he will thrive, if he is not
> it will be a miserable demoralizing experience.

im a teenager whos been in GT for 6 years and WTF, its SOOOOOOOOOO EASY. not challenging at ALL. if ur child was put in it they DESERVE to be in it for a reason. my parents dont speak english and cant do past algebra I. yet im doing Algebra II hnrs by myself and Biology hnrs in 8th grade as an online course. IM a lazy guy yet i accomplish what i do, and every kid in my grade are just as normal compared to the kids NOT in GT. actually there r more weird and slutty ppl in nongt. i get straight A's.. unless ur retarted u shudnt be in nongt. my cousins doing "standard" 7th grade subjects. BAHAHA. i couldve done that in 5th grade..i learned pre-aglebrea BY MYSELF in 5th grade.

im the same guy ^^ and the person who said that GT has more to do with parents talking their childrens way in is BULLSHIT. did u noe i didnt even KNOW what that random test was that they gave me in 2nd grade? yet i got 100% on it and my parents didnt let me go into GT thinking i was stupid. however, i proved them wrong by being the smartest kid in my 3rd grade. so i went into gt halfway thru the year and i was still one of the smartest. dont play that parent bullshit. it makes me mad cuz i did what made me what i am now.

Certified sandwich artist, congratulations

I tested into GT in 2nd grade and stayed in as long as I was in public school (through the first week of 8th grade).. I think for kids with an above average aptitude, it's nice to be in classes where you are taught different things - but if the interest isn't there, it really doesn't matter.

When I was there, GT kids were also constantly segregated from the rest of the school. We had lunch together, but that is about it. In middle school electives and gym are also co-mingled courses, but for the most part you are with the same group of kids all throughout school. I was lucky enough to have a non-GT best friend at a different school, so I made all kinds of friends.. but not so sure others in my GT classes were as successful. It's really difficult to become acclimated to all types of people who are from all different types of backgrounds, and learn on all types of levels if you're always kept away from them.

Never experienced the GT "lifestyle" in highschool.. I think it just turns into "honors" classes, so it might be a little bit different and more conducive to proper socialization. I hope.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2010 07:22PM by Restoner.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HokieMom,
>
> Your children must be at least in their 30s! The
> average Cognitive Abilities Test score of students
> admitted to the GT CEnters over the last 6-8 years
> has been around 120. Even for students admitted
> back in the 1990s, it was about 130.
>
Not sure where you get your information on the average IQ's. I do know that since they started using the Naglieri (spelling?) instead of the OtisLennon along with the Cogat, the IQ scores have been lower, but I don't believe they are that low. At least in the 90's and early 2000's they weren't. My sons were both closer to Hokie Mom's kids than the 130 you cite, and they are 19 and 20 now (to clarify theirs were in the mid 140's, as were most of their classmates..at least those that shared).

For what it is worth, I felt the ES GT Center was better run than the MS GT Center that they attended. In the MS only one of the GT teachers was certified to teach GT. One son thrived throughout, the other was bored by school; except for a couple of HS teachers, and his 4th grade teacher he felt most of his teachers were not terribly inspiring or challenging.

Didnt even know about the program till they wrote me last year and said my son was selected to go to GT. He was out of place in MS but Loves GT 3rd grade. He loves it. The teachers seem very good and most importantly his classmates seem a little more mature so he feels a lot more comfortable.

I really cannot say its harder than ms for my boy because he found it hard to be held back more than challenged. I would recommend GT for a kid that just doesnt seem to be clicking in MS.

BTW yes they are smart little students but normal. Sometimes its just feeling like they can fit in a bit more with other students that are on the same level. I would guess it all levels out academically by HS in or out of GT so no sweat if you keep your kid out of GT imho.

we love GT