Fairfax County General :
Fairfax Underground
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech
()
Date: January 09, 2014 10:01AM
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/8/court-rules-yelp-website-must-identify-seven-negat/
Apparently, several of Hadeed's customers aren't happy with the job their doing and decided to express themselves. This didn't go down well with Mr. Hadeed.
If you believe in free speech and don't like bullies making bad arguments to poor judges, compromising the privacy of online reviewers, then please don't use Joe Hadeed's services.
Apparently, several of Hadeed's customers aren't happy with the job their doing and decided to express themselves. This didn't go down well with Mr. Hadeed.
If you believe in free speech and don't like bullies making bad arguments to poor judges, compromising the privacy of online reviewers, then please don't use Joe Hadeed's services.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
J.A.F.O.
()
Date: January 09, 2014 10:05AM
This decision does not bode well for FairfaxUnderground.com...
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 09, 2014 10:55AM
It is the proper decision.
Yelp operates off two assumptions:
1. That people are inherently fair, just and honest
2. That those same people who are fair, just & honest need to hide behind a shield of anonymity to be able to voice their opinions.
#1 is patently false
#2 is defense for pussies who aren't #1 but also aren't man enough to stand up behind their bullshit.
The majority of reviews you read for any given company are going to be from 1 of 3 groups:
1. competitors
2. disgruntled past employees
3. someone being paid to create content, either directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
Yelp's whole business model is to hold businesses hostage to extort $300-$500-$800 a month from them in "advertising" in exchange for a more positive light being shown on the business. The whole part about people adding comments about businesses is just a means to create traffic (or the appearance of traffic) in order to make that extortion work.
Say you own a dry cleaner in Fairfax. Pay Yelp $400 a month (minimum) and if someone searches for a dry cleaner in Fairfax, Yelp will "help" your business listing get listed above everyone else.
(but only for a limited number of times anything more than that you have to pay extra, or one of the other dry cleaners in fairfax will get pushed to the top and you'll get pushed down to the bottom).
Then, at the end of the month they will tell you how successful they were at propping you up.
Of course, who maintains the statistics on how many times someone searched for Dry Cleaners in Fairfax? Yelp.
Who maintains the statistics on how many click-throughs went to your site? Yelp.
Who maintains the code used to determine how many "referrals" you got? Yelp.
Is there any way to directly tie a "referral" to a paying customer? Nope.
Is it a known fact that the successful sale to "click-through" ratio is terrible? Yep.
Meanwhile, it's a well known fact that you can get paid by the word OR by the review to write reviews on Yelp and it's a well known fact that entry-level writers trying to get picked up go the Yelp route trying to either hone their skills or as a sort of working resume for their writing.
Are these freelance writers being paid by Yelp to create content based off how much advertising a business pays or are they being paid by the business to create positive feedback or are they being paid by a competitor to create negative feedback?
Who knows. It's all anonymous.
To top all of that off, freedom of speech does not guarantee freedom of anonymity. If you have a legitimate beef with a company there should be absolutely no reason why you can't state your beef with your actual name attached. This ruling doesn't limit anyone's ability to say whatever they want, it limits their ability to defame a business anonymously.
Try working 16-17-18 hours a day, 7 days a week, no vacations for years, killing yourself to make your business a success & then have some anonymous fuck-stick out for giggles or a competitor disparage your business with lies in hopes of destroying your hard work and leaving you unable to support your family and see how you feel about that "anonymous" bullshit.
You want to talk shit about somebody's business, by all means, just be man enough to put your name behind it so someone can check your ass if you're lying. A lack of anonymity tends to act as a very effective bullshit filter.
Yelp operates off two assumptions:
1. That people are inherently fair, just and honest
2. That those same people who are fair, just & honest need to hide behind a shield of anonymity to be able to voice their opinions.
#1 is patently false
#2 is defense for pussies who aren't #1 but also aren't man enough to stand up behind their bullshit.
The majority of reviews you read for any given company are going to be from 1 of 3 groups:
1. competitors
2. disgruntled past employees
3. someone being paid to create content, either directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
Yelp's whole business model is to hold businesses hostage to extort $300-$500-$800 a month from them in "advertising" in exchange for a more positive light being shown on the business. The whole part about people adding comments about businesses is just a means to create traffic (or the appearance of traffic) in order to make that extortion work.
Say you own a dry cleaner in Fairfax. Pay Yelp $400 a month (minimum) and if someone searches for a dry cleaner in Fairfax, Yelp will "help" your business listing get listed above everyone else.
(but only for a limited number of times anything more than that you have to pay extra, or one of the other dry cleaners in fairfax will get pushed to the top and you'll get pushed down to the bottom).
Then, at the end of the month they will tell you how successful they were at propping you up.
Of course, who maintains the statistics on how many times someone searched for Dry Cleaners in Fairfax? Yelp.
Who maintains the statistics on how many click-throughs went to your site? Yelp.
Who maintains the code used to determine how many "referrals" you got? Yelp.
Is there any way to directly tie a "referral" to a paying customer? Nope.
Is it a known fact that the successful sale to "click-through" ratio is terrible? Yep.
Meanwhile, it's a well known fact that you can get paid by the word OR by the review to write reviews on Yelp and it's a well known fact that entry-level writers trying to get picked up go the Yelp route trying to either hone their skills or as a sort of working resume for their writing.
Are these freelance writers being paid by Yelp to create content based off how much advertising a business pays or are they being paid by the business to create positive feedback or are they being paid by a competitor to create negative feedback?
Who knows. It's all anonymous.
To top all of that off, freedom of speech does not guarantee freedom of anonymity. If you have a legitimate beef with a company there should be absolutely no reason why you can't state your beef with your actual name attached. This ruling doesn't limit anyone's ability to say whatever they want, it limits their ability to defame a business anonymously.
Try working 16-17-18 hours a day, 7 days a week, no vacations for years, killing yourself to make your business a success & then have some anonymous fuck-stick out for giggles or a competitor disparage your business with lies in hopes of destroying your hard work and leaving you unable to support your family and see how you feel about that "anonymous" bullshit.
You want to talk shit about somebody's business, by all means, just be man enough to put your name behind it so someone can check your ass if you're lying. A lack of anonymity tends to act as a very effective bullshit filter.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
..........
()
Date: January 09, 2014 12:34PM
1. competitors
2. disgruntled past employees
3. someone being paid to create content, either directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
Really? Prove it.
I don't entirely disagree with some of what you wrote, but then again I'm not a bitch and will tell a manager or owner, face to face, that their shit is fucked up.
2. disgruntled past employees
3. someone being paid to create content, either directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
Really? Prove it.
I don't entirely disagree with some of what you wrote, but then again I'm not a bitch and will tell a manager or owner, face to face, that their shit is fucked up.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech
()
Date: January 09, 2014 01:10PM
Mr. duhhhh (If that is your real name?),
Those assumptions are invalid and in fact laughable to anyone who's read a series of online reviews. Consumers know there are people who post patently-false claims about businesses all the time. We don't expect reviewers to be "fair, just or honest". We don't run screaming from a good restaurant or service just because someone has an axe to grind and a keyboard.
We know how easy it is to disparage a good name and we can decide for ourselves what to read and what to believe!
Those assumptions are invalid and in fact laughable to anyone who's read a series of online reviews. Consumers know there are people who post patently-false claims about businesses all the time. We don't expect reviewers to be "fair, just or honest". We don't run screaming from a good restaurant or service just because someone has an axe to grind and a keyboard.
We know how easy it is to disparage a good name and we can decide for ourselves what to read and what to believe!
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
????
()
Date: January 09, 2014 01:45PM
I complained after I found out the magic carpet they sold me, had a 200Lb weight limit and wasn't approved by the FAA.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 09, 2014 02:11PM
.......... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. competitors
> 2. disgruntled past employees
> 3. someone being paid to create content, either
> directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
>
>
> Really? Prove it.
>
Given that Yelp directly impacts any & every business and their ability to do business, the onus isn't on me to prove it's true, the onus should be/is on them to prove that it ISN'T true should they wish to keep their "anonymous" status protected. Anonymity only works if we can prove the anonymous reviews are valid (this recent court ruling agrees with this).
Yelp agrees with this notion and does employ a certain set of processes to weed out the most egregious attempts to anonymously flame a business but their processes only catch the most blatant attempts (ie setting up a fake email address but writing reviews from the same IP address).
However, there are also pieces of there recommendation screening that give preferential weight to a Yelp reviewer account that has a lot of reviews, so in essence, they are saying the more prolific you are on Yelp, the LESS likely you are to get flagged for bogus reviews.
Also factor in that Yelp is very aggressive on marketing to businesses and contrary to claims there are stories out there about businesses with 1 star ratings suddenly having positive reviews flow through the recommendation system and bringing their score up after paying Yelp for marketing.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/22/local/la-me--banks-yelp-backlash-20130423
Given that their entire business plan/existence rides on this anonymous free speech, one would think that they would employ much more stringent methods of preventing these types of abuses, but they do not, so why wouldn't they?
Because cutting all that shit out would drastically impact their ability to create traffic, thereby drastically impacting their ability to create revenue.
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. competitors
> 2. disgruntled past employees
> 3. someone being paid to create content, either
> directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
>
>
> Really? Prove it.
>
Given that Yelp directly impacts any & every business and their ability to do business, the onus isn't on me to prove it's true, the onus should be/is on them to prove that it ISN'T true should they wish to keep their "anonymous" status protected. Anonymity only works if we can prove the anonymous reviews are valid (this recent court ruling agrees with this).
Yelp agrees with this notion and does employ a certain set of processes to weed out the most egregious attempts to anonymously flame a business but their processes only catch the most blatant attempts (ie setting up a fake email address but writing reviews from the same IP address).
However, there are also pieces of there recommendation screening that give preferential weight to a Yelp reviewer account that has a lot of reviews, so in essence, they are saying the more prolific you are on Yelp, the LESS likely you are to get flagged for bogus reviews.
Also factor in that Yelp is very aggressive on marketing to businesses and contrary to claims there are stories out there about businesses with 1 star ratings suddenly having positive reviews flow through the recommendation system and bringing their score up after paying Yelp for marketing.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/22/local/la-me--banks-yelp-backlash-20130423
Given that their entire business plan/existence rides on this anonymous free speech, one would think that they would employ much more stringent methods of preventing these types of abuses, but they do not, so why wouldn't they?
Because cutting all that shit out would drastically impact their ability to create traffic, thereby drastically impacting their ability to create revenue.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
xpLFc
()
Date: January 09, 2014 02:14PM
for all yer oriental rug cleanin needs, just one call to ...SHUT THE FUCK UP, SHUT THE FUCK UP, SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 09, 2014 02:16PM
Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
We don't expect reviewers to be "fair, just or honest"
On the contrary, both Yelp and the courts have both agreed that there is an expectation of honesty implicit in maintaining anonymity as it relates to Yelp.
The fact that consumers have come to accept that many yelp reviews are not honest not only proves my point about yelp reviews, but also does not mean the requirement isn't there anymore.
I expect politicians to tell the truth. I've become used to them lying but that doesn't mean it's ok. I should still expect them to tell the truth and penalize the ones who do not.
-------------------------------------------------------
We don't expect reviewers to be "fair, just or honest"
On the contrary, both Yelp and the courts have both agreed that there is an expectation of honesty implicit in maintaining anonymity as it relates to Yelp.
The fact that consumers have come to accept that many yelp reviews are not honest not only proves my point about yelp reviews, but also does not mean the requirement isn't there anymore.
I expect politicians to tell the truth. I've become used to them lying but that doesn't mean it's ok. I should still expect them to tell the truth and penalize the ones who do not.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Negative reviewer
()
Date: January 09, 2014 02:21PM
I have left negative reviews for a few established businesses but only after I've done my best to solve the problem in person. And after that I will wait a few weeks to make sure I'm writing something that isn't emotionally charged. However, I will often change a minor detail or two so that i can add a little distance between myself and the situation. I wouldn't want to get sued because some asshole wants to screw me a second time.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Actually...
()
Date: January 09, 2014 03:01PM
Free speech does not acutally include slander.
The Washington Times is not actually a newspaper.
The Washington Times is not actually a newspaper.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
FMNKT
()
Date: January 09, 2014 03:55PM
Yelp is a fucking scam. Good for a business to finally bring yelp to their knees.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Habib
()
Date: January 09, 2014 04:13PM
FMNKT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yelp is a fucking scam. Good for a business to
> finally bring yelp to their knees.
And Joe Hadeed is an asshole for trying to out any online poster. He needs to pick a different fight.
I'm going to Yelp now to post a bad review on his company and hope everyone else does too just to teach him a lesson.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yelp is a fucking scam. Good for a business to
> finally bring yelp to their knees.
And Joe Hadeed is an asshole for trying to out any online poster. He needs to pick a different fight.
I'm going to Yelp now to post a bad review on his company and hope everyone else does too just to teach him a lesson.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Stabitha
()
Date: January 09, 2014 04:43PM
Anybody named Hadeed is not to be trusted anyway.
Many years ago I uncovered an insurance scam by some of these NOVA flying carpet rug dealers. They were damaging oriental rugs with water and then making an insurance claim and buying back the salvage (damaged rugs). They would then open a new rug store in a different location and do the same insurance scam with the same rugs to a different insuracne company. A few of them went to jail.
Many years ago I uncovered an insurance scam by some of these NOVA flying carpet rug dealers. They were damaging oriental rugs with water and then making an insurance claim and buying back the salvage (damaged rugs). They would then open a new rug store in a different location and do the same insurance scam with the same rugs to a different insuracne company. A few of them went to jail.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
The Mike O'Meara Show
()
Date: January 09, 2014 04:46PM
Duhhhh, IF that is your real name, both you and Joe "Jumping Around Like A Little Bitch" Hadeed suck big black never-washed homeless cock for beer money. Everything you say about Yelp is simply wrong.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
vuhEm
()
Date: January 09, 2014 04:55PM
I crapped on my rug when i was fucked up on alcohol. I rolled it up and put it out on my deck. It's been pretty cold lately so i think the turd froze. Can HADEED HELP MY SHIT RUG
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 10, 2014 11:55AM
The Mike O'Meara Show Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duhhhh, IF that is your real name, both you and
> Joe "Jumping Around Like A Little Bitch" Hadeed
> suck big black never-washed homeless cock for beer
> money. Everything you say about Yelp is simply
> wrong.
Oh, well, I guess that solves that.
Your well thought out, well executed and convincing argument proving any assertions about Yelp being patently false have won us all over.
Your fantasies about big black unwashed homeless cocks does give pause for concern though.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duhhhh, IF that is your real name, both you and
> Joe "Jumping Around Like A Little Bitch" Hadeed
> suck big black never-washed homeless cock for beer
> money. Everything you say about Yelp is simply
> wrong.
Oh, well, I guess that solves that.
Your well thought out, well executed and convincing argument proving any assertions about Yelp being patently false have won us all over.
Your fantasies about big black unwashed homeless cocks does give pause for concern though.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
..........
()
Date: January 10, 2014 12:08PM
duhhhh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .......... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 1. competitors
> > 2. disgruntled past employees
> > 3. someone being paid to create content, either
> > directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
> >
> >
> > Really? Prove it.
> >
>
>
> Given that Yelp directly impacts any & every
> business and their ability to do business, the
> onus isn't on me to prove it's true, the onus
> should be/is on them to prove that it ISN'T true
> should they wish to keep their "anonymous" status
> protected. Anonymity only works if we can prove
> the anonymous reviews are valid (this recent court
> ruling agrees with this).
>
> Yelp agrees with this notion and does employ a
> certain set of processes to weed out the most
> egregious attempts to anonymously flame a business
> but their processes only catch the most blatant
> attempts (ie setting up a fake email address but
> writing reviews from the same IP address).
>
> However, there are also pieces of there
> recommendation screening that give preferential
> weight to a Yelp reviewer account that has a lot
> of reviews, so in essence, they are saying the
> more prolific you are on Yelp, the LESS likely you
> are to get flagged for bogus reviews.
>
> Also factor in that Yelp is very aggressive on
> marketing to businesses and contrary to claims
> there are stories out there about businesses with
> 1 star ratings suddenly having positive reviews
> flow through the recommendation system and
> bringing their score up after paying Yelp for
> marketing.
>
> http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/22/local/la-m
> e--banks-yelp-backlash-20130423
>
> Given that their entire business plan/existence
> rides on this anonymous free speech, one would
> think that they would employ much more stringent
> methods of preventing these types of abuses, but
> they do not, so why wouldn't they?
>
> Because cutting all that shit out would
> drastically impact their ability to create
> traffic, thereby drastically impacting their
> ability to create revenue.
That is a lot of supposition and conjecture, not proof.
-------------------------------------------------------
> .......... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 1. competitors
> > 2. disgruntled past employees
> > 3. someone being paid to create content, either
> > directly by Yelp or by the business themselves.
> >
> >
> > Really? Prove it.
> >
>
>
> Given that Yelp directly impacts any & every
> business and their ability to do business, the
> onus isn't on me to prove it's true, the onus
> should be/is on them to prove that it ISN'T true
> should they wish to keep their "anonymous" status
> protected. Anonymity only works if we can prove
> the anonymous reviews are valid (this recent court
> ruling agrees with this).
>
> Yelp agrees with this notion and does employ a
> certain set of processes to weed out the most
> egregious attempts to anonymously flame a business
> but their processes only catch the most blatant
> attempts (ie setting up a fake email address but
> writing reviews from the same IP address).
>
> However, there are also pieces of there
> recommendation screening that give preferential
> weight to a Yelp reviewer account that has a lot
> of reviews, so in essence, they are saying the
> more prolific you are on Yelp, the LESS likely you
> are to get flagged for bogus reviews.
>
> Also factor in that Yelp is very aggressive on
> marketing to businesses and contrary to claims
> there are stories out there about businesses with
> 1 star ratings suddenly having positive reviews
> flow through the recommendation system and
> bringing their score up after paying Yelp for
> marketing.
>
> http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/22/local/la-m
> e--banks-yelp-backlash-20130423
>
> Given that their entire business plan/existence
> rides on this anonymous free speech, one would
> think that they would employ much more stringent
> methods of preventing these types of abuses, but
> they do not, so why wouldn't they?
>
> Because cutting all that shit out would
> drastically impact their ability to create
> traffic, thereby drastically impacting their
> ability to create revenue.
That is a lot of supposition and conjecture, not proof.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Liberal Logic 35
()
Date: January 10, 2014 12:22PM
duhhhh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Given that Yelp directly impacts any & every
> business and their ability to do business, the
> onus isn't on me to prove it's true, the onus
> should be/is on them to prove that it ISN'T true
> should they wish to keep their "anonymous" status
> protected. Anonymity only works if we can prove
> the anonymous reviews are valid (this recent court
> ruling agrees with this).
Except the problem is that to prove its valid the identify needs to be revealed to someone, but the identity is only supposed to be able to be revealed if it isnt valid.
Its a catch 22 that doesnt have a very good solution
-------------------------------------------------------
> Given that Yelp directly impacts any & every
> business and their ability to do business, the
> onus isn't on me to prove it's true, the onus
> should be/is on them to prove that it ISN'T true
> should they wish to keep their "anonymous" status
> protected. Anonymity only works if we can prove
> the anonymous reviews are valid (this recent court
> ruling agrees with this).
Except the problem is that to prove its valid the identify needs to be revealed to someone, but the identity is only supposed to be able to be revealed if it isnt valid.
Its a catch 22 that doesnt have a very good solution
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 10, 2014 12:36PM
.......... Wrote:
That is a lot of supposition and conjecture, not proof.
Does Yelp actively proposition companies for paid advertising on their site that fundamentally alters their search & display features to artificially place a paying company above a non-paying company? Yes.
Does Yelp place focus on pitching advertising to businesses that have lower rankings? Yes.
Does Yelp's advertising start at around $300-$350 a month for some maximum number of instances of this? Yes.
Does Yelp screen reviews? Yes.
Does Yelp claim to screen reviews for the specific purpose of ensuring only the "right ones" actually get posted? Yes.
Are frequent Yelp reviewers given preferential treatment when it comes to determining which reviews are valid or not? Yes.
Are Yelp's financials strong enough that they can afford to choose 100% honesty over profitability? Mmmmmmm. Not really.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the artificial silencing of critics. I'm saying that people think Yelp is some fantastic populist crowd-sourcing review tool when the reality is that Yelp is a profit-seeking company manufacturing an environment to create profit under the GUISE of it being some anonymous populist crowd sourcing review tool.
Are people able to post valid reviews? Sure.
However that doesn't change the fact that Yelp maintains an environment easily manipulated to sacrifice the honest part in lieu of the profitability part.
The lawsuit isn't about outing valid customer complaints, it's about outing Yelp's bullshit environment.
Like I said all along. Own a business. Feed your family from your hard work & then see that hard work and your family's livelihood put at risk because Yelp created an environment where a competitor could defame & cripple your business and then hide behind Yelp's argument of anonymity based solely on the fact that Yelp has some secret software they use that uses criteria they do not publish and that software has determined that the post was OK because it used a lot of detail.
and then have someone from Yelp call you to pitch $350 a month to "fix it".
That is a lot of supposition and conjecture, not proof.
Does Yelp actively proposition companies for paid advertising on their site that fundamentally alters their search & display features to artificially place a paying company above a non-paying company? Yes.
Does Yelp place focus on pitching advertising to businesses that have lower rankings? Yes.
Does Yelp's advertising start at around $300-$350 a month for some maximum number of instances of this? Yes.
Does Yelp screen reviews? Yes.
Does Yelp claim to screen reviews for the specific purpose of ensuring only the "right ones" actually get posted? Yes.
Are frequent Yelp reviewers given preferential treatment when it comes to determining which reviews are valid or not? Yes.
Are Yelp's financials strong enough that they can afford to choose 100% honesty over profitability? Mmmmmmm. Not really.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the artificial silencing of critics. I'm saying that people think Yelp is some fantastic populist crowd-sourcing review tool when the reality is that Yelp is a profit-seeking company manufacturing an environment to create profit under the GUISE of it being some anonymous populist crowd sourcing review tool.
Are people able to post valid reviews? Sure.
However that doesn't change the fact that Yelp maintains an environment easily manipulated to sacrifice the honest part in lieu of the profitability part.
The lawsuit isn't about outing valid customer complaints, it's about outing Yelp's bullshit environment.
Like I said all along. Own a business. Feed your family from your hard work & then see that hard work and your family's livelihood put at risk because Yelp created an environment where a competitor could defame & cripple your business and then hide behind Yelp's argument of anonymity based solely on the fact that Yelp has some secret software they use that uses criteria they do not publish and that software has determined that the post was OK because it used a lot of detail.
and then have someone from Yelp call you to pitch $350 a month to "fix it".
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
.........
()
Date: January 10, 2014 12:40PM
duhhhh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .......... Wrote:
>
> That is a lot of supposition and conjecture, not
> proof.
>
> Does Yelp actively proposition companies for paid
> advertising on their site that fundamentally
> alters their search & display features to
> artificially place a paying company above a
> non-paying company? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp place focus on pitching advertising to
> businesses that have lower rankings? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp's advertising start at around $300-$350
> a month for some maximum number of instances of
> this? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp screen reviews? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp claim to screen reviews for the specific
> purpose of ensuring only the "right ones" actually
> get posted? Yes.
>
> Are frequent Yelp reviewers given preferential
> treatment when it comes to determining which
> reviews are valid or not? Yes.
>
> Are Yelp's financials strong enough that they can
> afford to choose 100% honesty over profitability?
> Mmmmmmm. Not really.
>
>
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the
> artificial silencing of critics. I'm saying that
> people think Yelp is some fantastic populist
> crowd-sourcing review tool when the reality is
> that Yelp is a profit-seeking company
> manufacturing an environment to create profit
> under the GUISE of it being some anonymous
> populist crowd sourcing review tool.
>
> Are people able to post valid reviews? Sure.
>
> However that doesn't change the fact that Yelp
> maintains an environment easily manipulated to
> sacrifice the honest part in lieu of the
> profitability part.
>
> The lawsuit isn't about outing valid customer
> complaints, it's about outing Yelp's bullshit
> environment.
>
> Like I said all along. Own a business. Feed your
> family from your hard work & then see that hard
> work and your family's livelihood put at risk
> because Yelp created an environment where a
> competitor could defame & cripple your business
> and then hide behind Yelp's argument of anonymity
> based solely on the fact that Yelp has some secret
> software they use that uses criteria they do not
> publish and that software has determined that the
> post was OK because it used a lot of detail.
>
>
> and then have someone from Yelp call you to pitch
> $350 a month to "fix it".
Still no actual proof. You're taking ancillary "information", and forming seemingly biased OPINIONS on Yelp. Anonymously, I might add.
The very thing you are complaining about.
-------------------------------------------------------
> .......... Wrote:
>
> That is a lot of supposition and conjecture, not
> proof.
>
> Does Yelp actively proposition companies for paid
> advertising on their site that fundamentally
> alters their search & display features to
> artificially place a paying company above a
> non-paying company? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp place focus on pitching advertising to
> businesses that have lower rankings? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp's advertising start at around $300-$350
> a month for some maximum number of instances of
> this? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp screen reviews? Yes.
>
> Does Yelp claim to screen reviews for the specific
> purpose of ensuring only the "right ones" actually
> get posted? Yes.
>
> Are frequent Yelp reviewers given preferential
> treatment when it comes to determining which
> reviews are valid or not? Yes.
>
> Are Yelp's financials strong enough that they can
> afford to choose 100% honesty over profitability?
> Mmmmmmm. Not really.
>
>
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the
> artificial silencing of critics. I'm saying that
> people think Yelp is some fantastic populist
> crowd-sourcing review tool when the reality is
> that Yelp is a profit-seeking company
> manufacturing an environment to create profit
> under the GUISE of it being some anonymous
> populist crowd sourcing review tool.
>
> Are people able to post valid reviews? Sure.
>
> However that doesn't change the fact that Yelp
> maintains an environment easily manipulated to
> sacrifice the honest part in lieu of the
> profitability part.
>
> The lawsuit isn't about outing valid customer
> complaints, it's about outing Yelp's bullshit
> environment.
>
> Like I said all along. Own a business. Feed your
> family from your hard work & then see that hard
> work and your family's livelihood put at risk
> because Yelp created an environment where a
> competitor could defame & cripple your business
> and then hide behind Yelp's argument of anonymity
> based solely on the fact that Yelp has some secret
> software they use that uses criteria they do not
> publish and that software has determined that the
> post was OK because it used a lot of detail.
>
>
> and then have someone from Yelp call you to pitch
> $350 a month to "fix it".
Still no actual proof. You're taking ancillary "information", and forming seemingly biased OPINIONS on Yelp. Anonymously, I might add.
The very thing you are complaining about.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Joe Citizen
()
Date: January 10, 2014 12:47PM
This whole issue regarding ratings and reviews made me think of an event from last evening. While I was checking out at the Home Depot store, the cashier encouraged me to call the number at the bottom of the receipt to complete the survey. He then indicated when it came to the section to rate him, give him a "10" and he wrote a "10" on my receipt. What if I felt that he only deserved a 5?
Oh, I will complete the survey. I will give him a "2" and really screw up their ranking system for him as the manager likes to only see 9s and 10s on the reports. If lower, the manager talks to the individual.
Home Depot, as a whole, sucks so bad, I'd give them a 3 to a 4 -- on a good day.
Oh, I will complete the survey. I will give him a "2" and really screw up their ranking system for him as the manager likes to only see 9s and 10s on the reports. If lower, the manager talks to the individual.
Home Depot, as a whole, sucks so bad, I'd give them a 3 to a 4 -- on a good day.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 10, 2014 01:07PM
What do you mean no proof? None of those things are even contested by Yelp.
Does Yelp actively proposition companies for paid advertising on their site that fundamentally alters their search & display features to artificially place a paying company above a non-paying company?
https://biz.yelp.com/support/advertising
Advertising on Yelp will remove competitor ads from your Yelp business page, allowing you to keep the purchasing focus on your business.
Yelp Ads offers targeted advertising to increase your exposure on relevant searches and nearby business pages.
Does Yelp place focus on pitching advertising to businesses that have lower rankings?
Per their pitch to me: there's no need to sell advertising to a highly rated very popular business as there is no upside to it for them. How you could "prove" this, I don't know as they are very, very specific with the information relayed during a pitch. Next time they contact me I will try to get this from them in writing.
Does Yelp's advertising start at around $300-$350 a month for some maximum number of instances of this?
Next I get an email quote from Yelp I'll post it.
Does Yelp screen reviews?
https://biz.yelp.com/support/review_solicitation
"We have the unfortunate task of trying to help our users distinguish between real and fake reviews, and while we think we do a pretty good job at it with our fancy computer algorithms"
Does Yelp claim to screen reviews for the specific purpose of ensuring only the "right ones" actually get posted
https://biz.yelp.com/support/review_solicitation
".. Well, we have the unfortunate task of trying to help our users distinguish between real and fake reviews..."
Are frequent Yelp reviewers given preferential treatment when it comes to determining which reviews are valid or not
https://biz.yelp.com/support/common_questions
"...There are a number of reasons why a review might not be recommended. For example, the review might have been posted by a less established user, or it may seem like an unhelpful rant or rave. Some of these reviews are fakes (like the ones that originate from the same computer) and some suggest a bias (like the ones written by a friend of the business owner), but many are real reviews from real customers who we just don’t know much about and therefore can’t recommend...."
Are Yelp's financials strong enough that they can afford to choose 100% honesty over profitability?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1784422-will-yelp-ever-be-profitable
From Oct. 2013 (the last quarterly earnings report):
"On Tuesday in the after-hours, Yelp (YELP) announced results of another quarter where it failed to report a profit.
The company reported a loss of 4 cents per share on revenues of $61.2 million (this represents a year-to-year growth of 68%). Yelp has a habit of spending more money than it makes and this habit might continue on for the foreseeable future."
Does Yelp actively proposition companies for paid advertising on their site that fundamentally alters their search & display features to artificially place a paying company above a non-paying company?
https://biz.yelp.com/support/advertising
Advertising on Yelp will remove competitor ads from your Yelp business page, allowing you to keep the purchasing focus on your business.
Yelp Ads offers targeted advertising to increase your exposure on relevant searches and nearby business pages.
Does Yelp place focus on pitching advertising to businesses that have lower rankings?
Per their pitch to me: there's no need to sell advertising to a highly rated very popular business as there is no upside to it for them. How you could "prove" this, I don't know as they are very, very specific with the information relayed during a pitch. Next time they contact me I will try to get this from them in writing.
Does Yelp's advertising start at around $300-$350 a month for some maximum number of instances of this?
Next I get an email quote from Yelp I'll post it.
Does Yelp screen reviews?
https://biz.yelp.com/support/review_solicitation
"We have the unfortunate task of trying to help our users distinguish between real and fake reviews, and while we think we do a pretty good job at it with our fancy computer algorithms"
Does Yelp claim to screen reviews for the specific purpose of ensuring only the "right ones" actually get posted
https://biz.yelp.com/support/review_solicitation
".. Well, we have the unfortunate task of trying to help our users distinguish between real and fake reviews..."
Are frequent Yelp reviewers given preferential treatment when it comes to determining which reviews are valid or not
https://biz.yelp.com/support/common_questions
"...There are a number of reasons why a review might not be recommended. For example, the review might have been posted by a less established user, or it may seem like an unhelpful rant or rave. Some of these reviews are fakes (like the ones that originate from the same computer) and some suggest a bias (like the ones written by a friend of the business owner), but many are real reviews from real customers who we just don’t know much about and therefore can’t recommend...."
Are Yelp's financials strong enough that they can afford to choose 100% honesty over profitability?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1784422-will-yelp-ever-be-profitable
From Oct. 2013 (the last quarterly earnings report):
"On Tuesday in the after-hours, Yelp (YELP) announced results of another quarter where it failed to report a profit.
The company reported a loss of 4 cents per share on revenues of $61.2 million (this represents a year-to-year growth of 68%). Yelp has a habit of spending more money than it makes and this habit might continue on for the foreseeable future."
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Stabitha
()
Date: January 10, 2014 01:20PM
Joe Citizen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This whole issue regarding ratings and reviews
> made me think of an event from last evening.
> While I was checking out at the Home Depot store,
> the cashier encouraged me to call the number at
> the bottom of the receipt to complete the survey.
> He then indicated when it came to the section to
> rate him, give him a "10" and he wrote a "10" on
> my receipt. What if I felt that he only deserved
> a 5?
>
> Oh, I will complete the survey. I will give him a
> "2" and really screw up their ranking system for
> him as the manager likes to only see 9s and 10s on
> the reports. If lower, the manager talks to the
> individual.
>
> Home Depot, as a whole, sucks so bad, I'd give
> them a 3 to a 4 -- on a good day.
All this survey and internet linked crap in big box stores has made something as simple as buying a box of nails a pain in the ass! I want my neighborhood hardware store back thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------
> This whole issue regarding ratings and reviews
> made me think of an event from last evening.
> While I was checking out at the Home Depot store,
> the cashier encouraged me to call the number at
> the bottom of the receipt to complete the survey.
> He then indicated when it came to the section to
> rate him, give him a "10" and he wrote a "10" on
> my receipt. What if I felt that he only deserved
> a 5?
>
> Oh, I will complete the survey. I will give him a
> "2" and really screw up their ranking system for
> him as the manager likes to only see 9s and 10s on
> the reports. If lower, the manager talks to the
> individual.
>
> Home Depot, as a whole, sucks so bad, I'd give
> them a 3 to a 4 -- on a good day.
All this survey and internet linked crap in big box stores has made something as simple as buying a box of nails a pain in the ass! I want my neighborhood hardware store back thank you.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech
()
Date: January 10, 2014 01:35PM
duhhhh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What do you mean no proof? None of those things
> are even contested by Yelp.
>
> Does Yelp actively proposition companies for
> paid advertising on their site that fundamentally
> alters their search & display features to
> artificially place a paying company above a
> non-paying company?
>
> https://biz.yelp.com/support/advertising
>
> Advertising on Yelp will remove competitor ads
> from your Yelp business page, allowing you to keep
> the purchasing focus on your business.
> ...
duhhhh,
Those are all fine reasons not to use Yelp as a rating service. I appreciate your candor, exposing the dirty business this company has been up to. I'm glad you felt comfortable making these claims on a public forum and by the choice of your name here, I can only assume that you did so, in part perhaps, because you feel protected from malicious lawsuits from Yelp by your anonymity on FFUG.
If we are to take your overall point about online anonymity of reviewers seriously, we will have to first be provided with your name and address. Otherwise, your anonymity here proves my point.
Allow courts to forcibly remove the anonymity of online reviewers and you'll stifle the broad and enriching critique and that benefits us all, including companies competing fairly in the marketplace.
PS - Our nation was founded with words printed by anonymous authors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers
-------------------------------------------------------
> What do you mean no proof? None of those things
> are even contested by Yelp.
>
> Does Yelp actively proposition companies for
> paid advertising on their site that fundamentally
> alters their search & display features to
> artificially place a paying company above a
> non-paying company?
>
> https://biz.yelp.com/support/advertising
>
> Advertising on Yelp will remove competitor ads
> from your Yelp business page, allowing you to keep
> the purchasing focus on your business.
> ...
duhhhh,
Those are all fine reasons not to use Yelp as a rating service. I appreciate your candor, exposing the dirty business this company has been up to. I'm glad you felt comfortable making these claims on a public forum and by the choice of your name here, I can only assume that you did so, in part perhaps, because you feel protected from malicious lawsuits from Yelp by your anonymity on FFUG.
If we are to take your overall point about online anonymity of reviewers seriously, we will have to first be provided with your name and address. Otherwise, your anonymity here proves my point.
Allow courts to forcibly remove the anonymity of online reviewers and you'll stifle the broad and enriching critique and that benefits us all, including companies competing fairly in the marketplace.
PS - Our nation was founded with words printed by anonymous authors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 10, 2014 01:59PM
Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech Wrote:
>
> duhhhh,
> Those are all fine reasons not to use Yelp as a
> rating service. I appreciate your candor,
> exposing the dirty business this company has been
> up to. I'm glad you felt comfortable making these
> claims on a public forum and by the choice of your
> name here, I can only assume that you did so, in
> part perhaps, because you feel protected from
> malicious lawsuits from Yelp by your anonymity on
> FFUG.
>
> If we are to take your overall point about online
> anonymity of reviewers seriously, we will have to
> first be provided with your name and address.
> Otherwise, your anonymity here proves my point.
>
> Allow courts to forcibly remove the anonymity of
> online reviewers and you'll stifle the broad and
> enriching critique and that benefits us all,
> including companies competing fairly in the
> marketplace.
>
> PS - Our nation was founded with words printed by
> anonymous authors:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers
1. I didn't expose any dirty business. I am highlighting a deficiency in the general public's understanding & critical thinking that places Yelp's operating procedures, their stated goals & the public's understanding of their goals at opposition to each other.
2. Your declaration of needing my personal info in order to lend any credibility to my comments, even when presented with the specific text/links directly from Yelp simply proves that you agree with me.
Given that I am not:
- defaming a business
- attacking you or your business directly
- posting on a website that claims any sort of "honest anonymity" that declares any anonymous comment as being valid and worthy/accurate
Your repeated attempts to highlight hypocrisy in my posting anonymously falls short.
3. There is no benefit to consumers nor businesses when information is sold to a user as 100% honest & open-sourced when it is actually VERY molded & manipulated and certainly not 100% honest, particularly when the business doing the manipulation is also the business attempting to use that molded data to sell services.
I'm not advocating and end to Yelp, I'm advocating for people to have a better understanding of what Yelp actually contains.
The sooner we let go of this misconstrued idea of every review on Yelp being a valid, independant, honest, review and acknowledge that their system is gamed to large extent we can reframe this lawsuit in the proper light.
IMO, this lawsuit isn't about Hadeed trying to enact retribution against a customer for a bad review because there was no customer. It's about exposing a system that claims to be 100% honest and impartial but is designed to be anything but at the expense of folks trying to make a living and done by a company that has made this very system the core of their own business model.
>
> duhhhh,
> Those are all fine reasons not to use Yelp as a
> rating service. I appreciate your candor,
> exposing the dirty business this company has been
> up to. I'm glad you felt comfortable making these
> claims on a public forum and by the choice of your
> name here, I can only assume that you did so, in
> part perhaps, because you feel protected from
> malicious lawsuits from Yelp by your anonymity on
> FFUG.
>
> If we are to take your overall point about online
> anonymity of reviewers seriously, we will have to
> first be provided with your name and address.
> Otherwise, your anonymity here proves my point.
>
> Allow courts to forcibly remove the anonymity of
> online reviewers and you'll stifle the broad and
> enriching critique and that benefits us all,
> including companies competing fairly in the
> marketplace.
>
> PS - Our nation was founded with words printed by
> anonymous authors:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers
1. I didn't expose any dirty business. I am highlighting a deficiency in the general public's understanding & critical thinking that places Yelp's operating procedures, their stated goals & the public's understanding of their goals at opposition to each other.
2. Your declaration of needing my personal info in order to lend any credibility to my comments, even when presented with the specific text/links directly from Yelp simply proves that you agree with me.
Given that I am not:
- defaming a business
- attacking you or your business directly
- posting on a website that claims any sort of "honest anonymity" that declares any anonymous comment as being valid and worthy/accurate
Your repeated attempts to highlight hypocrisy in my posting anonymously falls short.
3. There is no benefit to consumers nor businesses when information is sold to a user as 100% honest & open-sourced when it is actually VERY molded & manipulated and certainly not 100% honest, particularly when the business doing the manipulation is also the business attempting to use that molded data to sell services.
I'm not advocating and end to Yelp, I'm advocating for people to have a better understanding of what Yelp actually contains.
The sooner we let go of this misconstrued idea of every review on Yelp being a valid, independant, honest, review and acknowledge that their system is gamed to large extent we can reframe this lawsuit in the proper light.
IMO, this lawsuit isn't about Hadeed trying to enact retribution against a customer for a bad review because there was no customer. It's about exposing a system that claims to be 100% honest and impartial but is designed to be anything but at the expense of folks trying to make a living and done by a company that has made this very system the core of their own business model.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech
()
Date: January 10, 2014 02:21PM
duhhhh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech Wrote:
>
> The sooner we let go of this misconstrued idea of
> every review on Yelp being a valid, independant,
> honest, review and acknowledge that their system
> is gamed to large extent we can reframe this
> lawsuit in the proper light.
You are the person I've encountered who thinks anyone takes a Yelp review as Gospel. Everyone I've ever talked to about this has a method to deal with the obvious problems with online reviews. Those solutions are manifold:
- Only read 2, 3, and 4 star reviews
- Look for similarities in reviews
- Google reviewer names to see if this reviewer seems to write similarly-worded and suspicious reviews.
- Don't take any statement seriously until at least X number of reviewers have said the same thing.
> IMO, this lawsuit isn't about Hadeed trying to
> enact retribution against a customer for a bad
> review because there was no customer. It's about
> exposing a system that claims to be 100% honest
> and impartial but is designed to be anything but
> at the expense of folks trying to make a living
> and done by a company that has made this very
> system the core of their own business model.
Your opinion is counter to the facts of the case. The judge's ruling, advocated for by Hadeed's attorney, is to release the names of the reviewers. The article didn't say Hadeed wanted Yelp to change their business practices, as you have suggested. In fact, here is what the article said:
Raighne Delaney, a lawyer at the Arlington firm Bean, Kinney & Korman who represented Mr. Hadeed. “In order for someone like Joe Hadeed to find out who these people are, he has to explain his case, and if he can convince the judge that there might be a real lawsuit against this person, the judge can then say, ‘Yes, you can get this information.’”
The judge only rules that the name must be divulged if he determines there is possible grounds for a lawsuit against the anonymous person.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech Wrote:
>
> The sooner we let go of this misconstrued idea of
> every review on Yelp being a valid, independant,
> honest, review and acknowledge that their system
> is gamed to large extent we can reframe this
> lawsuit in the proper light.
You are the person I've encountered who thinks anyone takes a Yelp review as Gospel. Everyone I've ever talked to about this has a method to deal with the obvious problems with online reviews. Those solutions are manifold:
- Only read 2, 3, and 4 star reviews
- Look for similarities in reviews
- Google reviewer names to see if this reviewer seems to write similarly-worded and suspicious reviews.
- Don't take any statement seriously until at least X number of reviewers have said the same thing.
> IMO, this lawsuit isn't about Hadeed trying to
> enact retribution against a customer for a bad
> review because there was no customer. It's about
> exposing a system that claims to be 100% honest
> and impartial but is designed to be anything but
> at the expense of folks trying to make a living
> and done by a company that has made this very
> system the core of their own business model.
Your opinion is counter to the facts of the case. The judge's ruling, advocated for by Hadeed's attorney, is to release the names of the reviewers. The article didn't say Hadeed wanted Yelp to change their business practices, as you have suggested. In fact, here is what the article said:
Raighne Delaney, a lawyer at the Arlington firm Bean, Kinney & Korman who represented Mr. Hadeed. “In order for someone like Joe Hadeed to find out who these people are, he has to explain his case, and if he can convince the judge that there might be a real lawsuit against this person, the judge can then say, ‘Yes, you can get this information.’”
The judge only rules that the name must be divulged if he determines there is possible grounds for a lawsuit against the anonymous person.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Dispute
()
Date: January 10, 2014 02:39PM
Somehow I get the feeling that hadeed just wants to start suing people for any and all negative reviews left for his company. Any dispute has 2 sides and a business often has more resources for a court battle than a homeowner. Dollar to donuts it's a shakedown so he can only have a positive image in the future. Which could lead to more corner cutting and a "fuck you" attitude because people will be afraid of leaving a negative review and possibly getting sued for libel.
If you advertise as much as he does, you're probably not as good as the guys who gets word of mouth recommendations.
If you advertise as much as he does, you're probably not as good as the guys who gets word of mouth recommendations.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 10, 2014 02:44PM
Hadeed_Hates_Free_Speech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your opinion is counter to the facts of the case.
> The judge's ruling, advocated for by Hadeed's
> attorney, is to release the names of the
> reviewers. The article didn't say Hadeed wanted
> Yelp to change their business practices, as you
> have suggested. In fact, here is what the article
> said:
> Raighne Delaney, a lawyer at the Arlington firm
> Bean, Kinney & Korman who represented Mr. Hadeed.
> “In order for someone like Joe Hadeed to find
> out who these people are, he has to explain his
> case, and if he can convince the judge that there
> might be a real lawsuit against this person, the
> judge can then say, ‘Yes, you can get this
> information.’”
>
> The judge only rules that the name must be
> divulged if he determines there is possible
> grounds for a lawsuit against the anonymous
> person.
You are getting way to caught up in one little peice of the process.
Hadeed claims the reviews are fake and not actual customer reviews.
Yelp argues they are valid reviews because if they were invalid reviews it would bring the entire ecosystem of Yelp and their business model into question.
There is a standoff between Hadeed & Yelp over how to prove whether the reviews are valid reviews or not.
The only way to really verify whether the reviews are valid is to divulge who posted them.
Once that info is divulged THEN Hadeed either admits the reviews were from valid customers or Yelp admits their ecosystem is faulty.
That's the REAL goal here in this court case. Proving the validity of Yelp's ecosystem.
Simply finding out a name does nothing for any free speech argument as there is no anonymity guaranteed within the right to free speech AND there are still limits to free speech (defamation, libel, slander etc).
I'm OK with the court's ruling here. Hadeed proved to the court that there was reasonable enough doubt to NOT believe the reviews were from valid customers and that Yelp needs to prove it's ecosystem. If they are not valid reviews, Yelp's faulty ecosystem is causing irreperable, grave damage to a business.
On the flip side of that, if it's determined that the reviews were valid customers, the hurdle for proving any sort of legal wrongdoing simply by posting a bad review should be MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher.
We all have freedom of speech but there are still legal limits to what you can and can't say. That being said, I do not support businesses being able to sue a customer or engage in harrassing a customer via the legal system simply for posting a bad review of their business.
All in all, it's an interesting topic and contrary to how FFU usually goes, it's been enjoyable debating it with you without it falling into the typical garbage.
Have a good weekend.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your opinion is counter to the facts of the case.
> The judge's ruling, advocated for by Hadeed's
> attorney, is to release the names of the
> reviewers. The article didn't say Hadeed wanted
> Yelp to change their business practices, as you
> have suggested. In fact, here is what the article
> said:
> Raighne Delaney, a lawyer at the Arlington firm
> Bean, Kinney & Korman who represented Mr. Hadeed.
> “In order for someone like Joe Hadeed to find
> out who these people are, he has to explain his
> case, and if he can convince the judge that there
> might be a real lawsuit against this person, the
> judge can then say, ‘Yes, you can get this
> information.’”
>
> The judge only rules that the name must be
> divulged if he determines there is possible
> grounds for a lawsuit against the anonymous
> person.
You are getting way to caught up in one little peice of the process.
Hadeed claims the reviews are fake and not actual customer reviews.
Yelp argues they are valid reviews because if they were invalid reviews it would bring the entire ecosystem of Yelp and their business model into question.
There is a standoff between Hadeed & Yelp over how to prove whether the reviews are valid reviews or not.
The only way to really verify whether the reviews are valid is to divulge who posted them.
Once that info is divulged THEN Hadeed either admits the reviews were from valid customers or Yelp admits their ecosystem is faulty.
That's the REAL goal here in this court case. Proving the validity of Yelp's ecosystem.
Simply finding out a name does nothing for any free speech argument as there is no anonymity guaranteed within the right to free speech AND there are still limits to free speech (defamation, libel, slander etc).
I'm OK with the court's ruling here. Hadeed proved to the court that there was reasonable enough doubt to NOT believe the reviews were from valid customers and that Yelp needs to prove it's ecosystem. If they are not valid reviews, Yelp's faulty ecosystem is causing irreperable, grave damage to a business.
On the flip side of that, if it's determined that the reviews were valid customers, the hurdle for proving any sort of legal wrongdoing simply by posting a bad review should be MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher.
We all have freedom of speech but there are still legal limits to what you can and can't say. That being said, I do not support businesses being able to sue a customer or engage in harrassing a customer via the legal system simply for posting a bad review of their business.
All in all, it's an interesting topic and contrary to how FFU usually goes, it's been enjoyable debating it with you without it falling into the typical garbage.
Have a good weekend.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
duhhhh
()
Date: January 10, 2014 02:50PM
Dispute Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Somehow I get the feeling that hadeed just wants
> to start suing people for any and all negative
> reviews left for his company. Any dispute has 2
> sides and a business often has more resources for
> a court battle than a homeowner. Dollar to donuts
> it's a shakedown so he can only have a positive
> image in the future. Which could lead to more
> corner cutting and a "fuck you" attitude because
> people will be afraid of leaving a negative review
> and possibly getting sued for libel.
>
> If you advertise as much as he does, you're
> probably not as good as the guys who gets word of
> mouth recommendations.
There are protections in place to prevent or help minimize harrassment via the legal system.
Hadeed tries to sue 1 customer for a bad review, customer counter sues for harrassment & legal fees.
Customer wins the case = massive financial hit for Hadeed + the next time they tried to take another customer to court for the same thing, they could probably get it thrown out without ever being heard as there's a history of harrassment of customers unhappy with their business.
Customer loses the case because they did overstep the boundaries & there's STILL a history there of Hadeed suing customers for bad reviews making his 2nd or any subsequent cases that much harder.
Then you factor in the MASSIVE amounts of negative press a business would get for suing it's customers and it would, quite literally, probably put them out of business.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Somehow I get the feeling that hadeed just wants
> to start suing people for any and all negative
> reviews left for his company. Any dispute has 2
> sides and a business often has more resources for
> a court battle than a homeowner. Dollar to donuts
> it's a shakedown so he can only have a positive
> image in the future. Which could lead to more
> corner cutting and a "fuck you" attitude because
> people will be afraid of leaving a negative review
> and possibly getting sued for libel.
>
> If you advertise as much as he does, you're
> probably not as good as the guys who gets word of
> mouth recommendations.
There are protections in place to prevent or help minimize harrassment via the legal system.
Hadeed tries to sue 1 customer for a bad review, customer counter sues for harrassment & legal fees.
Customer wins the case = massive financial hit for Hadeed + the next time they tried to take another customer to court for the same thing, they could probably get it thrown out without ever being heard as there's a history of harrassment of customers unhappy with their business.
Customer loses the case because they did overstep the boundaries & there's STILL a history there of Hadeed suing customers for bad reviews making his 2nd or any subsequent cases that much harder.
Then you factor in the MASSIVE amounts of negative press a business would get for suing it's customers and it would, quite literally, probably put them out of business.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Joe Schmo
()
Date: January 10, 2014 10:16PM
Regardless of whether or not the Yelp reviews were fake, I will never do business with Hadeed carpets or Yelp.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
No thank you
()
Date: January 10, 2014 10:37PM
Stabitha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All this survey and internet linked crap in big
> box stores has made something as simple as buying
> a box of nails a pain in the ass! I want my
> neighborhood hardware store back thank you.
+1
I will shop at your store if I like you, and I will not shop at your store if I do not. We do not need to have a continuing relationship nor a dialogue about my satisfaction of my purchase. When Home Depot ran Lowe's out of FFX County in the 90's I went to the Lowes in Manassas. I did not feel the need, nor did I take the opportunity to communicate my dissatisfaction with Home Depot to them, I simply drove my ass out to Manasses and shopped at Lowes. No worries, no drama, no internet complaints, no internet reviews. I, as a customer took my business elsewhere. That is all that one has to do to express their displeasure with any business.
-------------------------------------------------------
> All this survey and internet linked crap in big
> box stores has made something as simple as buying
> a box of nails a pain in the ass! I want my
> neighborhood hardware store back thank you.
+1
I will shop at your store if I like you, and I will not shop at your store if I do not. We do not need to have a continuing relationship nor a dialogue about my satisfaction of my purchase. When Home Depot ran Lowe's out of FFX County in the 90's I went to the Lowes in Manassas. I did not feel the need, nor did I take the opportunity to communicate my dissatisfaction with Home Depot to them, I simply drove my ass out to Manasses and shopped at Lowes. No worries, no drama, no internet complaints, no internet reviews. I, as a customer took my business elsewhere. That is all that one has to do to express their displeasure with any business.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
donut lover
()
Date: January 11, 2014 02:51PM
This is very interesting. I have always wondered about Yelp and I think the poster named 'duh' has some good points. I never understood why valid sounding reviews on yelp get put under their 'filtered' status (which now has changed to non-favored status.
I started to wonder about this after I went to a resort-spa place in Florida. I had significant problems during my stay, which confused me because I thought the place had a good reputation. So I went to yelp and looked at reviews and there was one person who very factually outlined the same issues that I had--this person's review was fair, non emotional and true (based on my experience). So I began to think about creating a yelp account to bring up my points and to add what I thought needed to change and I went back to yelp to see if any other reviews had been written. Well, the well written review was now moved to the non-recommended/filtered section. WTF? It made me really wonder about this whole yelp site. As an aside, the only reason I thought about doing a review is because this place is costly and I wanted to let people know to do some research and be proactive regarding some of the problems that I encountered (and these were real problems, not just me having unrealistic expectations or diva moments).
I am not sure who makes the decisions to move reviews but something stinks. Which makes me think that poster 'duh' is on to something.
To the poster 'no thank you'--the Lowes in Sully Circle is great and I shop there all of the time with no issues. I was not sure if you knew there was one there.
I started to wonder about this after I went to a resort-spa place in Florida. I had significant problems during my stay, which confused me because I thought the place had a good reputation. So I went to yelp and looked at reviews and there was one person who very factually outlined the same issues that I had--this person's review was fair, non emotional and true (based on my experience). So I began to think about creating a yelp account to bring up my points and to add what I thought needed to change and I went back to yelp to see if any other reviews had been written. Well, the well written review was now moved to the non-recommended/filtered section. WTF? It made me really wonder about this whole yelp site. As an aside, the only reason I thought about doing a review is because this place is costly and I wanted to let people know to do some research and be proactive regarding some of the problems that I encountered (and these were real problems, not just me having unrealistic expectations or diva moments).
I am not sure who makes the decisions to move reviews but something stinks. Which makes me think that poster 'duh' is on to something.
To the poster 'no thank you'--the Lowes in Sully Circle is great and I shop there all of the time with no issues. I was not sure if you knew there was one there.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
hmmm
()
Date: January 11, 2014 07:23PM
The reviews for this business on yelp are terrible.
$750K lawsuit over Yelp review will go to trial
Posted by:
$750K lawsuit
()
Date: January 28, 2014 10:12AM
$750K lawsuit over Yelp review will go to trial
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/750k-lawsuit-over-yelp-review-will-go-to-trial/2014/01/26/63e9d372-8539-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html
A lawsuit filed by a D.C. contractor who is seeking $750,000 in damages from a woman whom he claims defamed his business in negative Yelp reviews is set to go to trial Monday in Fairfax County.
Christopher Dietz alleges a one-star review on the popular site and others were riddled with falsehoods and sent customers fleeing. Jane Perez stands by her claims that her home was damaged, she was billed for work that wasn’t done and jewelry went missing after she hired Dietz’s company to fix up her newly purchased Fairfax home.
She closed one post: “Bottom line do not put yourself through this nightmare of a contractor.”
The case is being closely watched by First Amendment advocates and businesses alike. First Amendment advocates say companies are increasingly turning to such tactics to stifle negative — but important — consumer information on review sites like Yelp.
Businesses say they are forced to take aggressive action because the Internet has allowed false claims to live on virtually forever and reach thousands of potential customers, doing untold harm.
Dietz says his eight-year-old design and contracting firm had a good reputation, before Perez hired him to do work on her townhome in 2011. Dietz was hired to refinish floors, perform plumbing work, paint and do other tasks.
But Perez said the work was shoddy and she had to spend thousands of dollars having it redone. She took to the Internet to express her displeasure. Dietz claims her negative reviews on Yelp and Angie’s List cost him $300,000 in business and took a toll on him personally. He says he performed the work as he was contracted to do.
Perez, a retired captain in the armed forces, said she was shocked Dietz decided to take legal action against her. She said she never imagined she might be sued over a posting on the site.
A Fairfax County judge granted Dietz a preliminary injunction that forced Perez to remove parts of her reviews, but the injunction was later overturned by the Virginia Supreme Court.
The trial begins the same month a Virginia court ruled Yelp had to reveal the identities of seven anonymous users, who posted critical reviews of the popular local company, Hadeed Carpet Cleaners. The company claims the reviewers weren’t actual customers and posted false claims.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/750k-lawsuit-over-yelp-review-will-go-to-trial/2014/01/26/63e9d372-8539-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html
A lawsuit filed by a D.C. contractor who is seeking $750,000 in damages from a woman whom he claims defamed his business in negative Yelp reviews is set to go to trial Monday in Fairfax County.
Christopher Dietz alleges a one-star review on the popular site and others were riddled with falsehoods and sent customers fleeing. Jane Perez stands by her claims that her home was damaged, she was billed for work that wasn’t done and jewelry went missing after she hired Dietz’s company to fix up her newly purchased Fairfax home.
She closed one post: “Bottom line do not put yourself through this nightmare of a contractor.”
The case is being closely watched by First Amendment advocates and businesses alike. First Amendment advocates say companies are increasingly turning to such tactics to stifle negative — but important — consumer information on review sites like Yelp.
Businesses say they are forced to take aggressive action because the Internet has allowed false claims to live on virtually forever and reach thousands of potential customers, doing untold harm.
Dietz says his eight-year-old design and contracting firm had a good reputation, before Perez hired him to do work on her townhome in 2011. Dietz was hired to refinish floors, perform plumbing work, paint and do other tasks.
But Perez said the work was shoddy and she had to spend thousands of dollars having it redone. She took to the Internet to express her displeasure. Dietz claims her negative reviews on Yelp and Angie’s List cost him $300,000 in business and took a toll on him personally. He says he performed the work as he was contracted to do.
Perez, a retired captain in the armed forces, said she was shocked Dietz decided to take legal action against her. She said she never imagined she might be sued over a posting on the site.
A Fairfax County judge granted Dietz a preliminary injunction that forced Perez to remove parts of her reviews, but the injunction was later overturned by the Virginia Supreme Court.
The trial begins the same month a Virginia court ruled Yelp had to reveal the identities of seven anonymous users, who posted critical reviews of the popular local company, Hadeed Carpet Cleaners. The company claims the reviewers weren’t actual customers and posted false claims.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Habeeb
()
Date: January 28, 2014 10:13AM
She could have easily take this company to task if she had recorded the poor workmanship and have pictures before and after and then the bills for the repair and the result after the repair. The missing jewelry may be harder to prove since the house was not burgled. And unless she had a video camera that recorded the theft, then she may have to retract that part. If she is not lying, and I tend to believe her, she should win and then sue that company, otherwise if she is lying, then she deserves punishment
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Joe Citizen
()
Date: January 28, 2014 10:53AM
Sigh. Getting sued OVER A YELP REVIEW. Completely ridiculous. I wish they put this on Judge Judy just so the obviously shady owner of this contracting business could get yelled at just for the stupidity of filing the lawsuit...
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Hadeed not a thug
()
Date: January 28, 2014 02:04PM
Trust me, a real thug would have heated someone up to get the latest round of turf contracts. Hadeed did not do that.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
aging debbie does dallas fan
()
Date: January 28, 2014 07:02PM
richmond is being taken over by obama money streams they are flooding in
the VA court is skippign court they refuse to own up to the laws they themselves are running over
and fairfax has stolen hundreds fo thousands from me, damages and otherwise owed by keeping me out of business using false complaints still not proven.
------------------------------
as if i give a crap about hadeeds clean image he's doing well !
if she lied the law says she must own up to it. if she lied
HOWEVER who should beleive a comment made by someone with no identitiy?
that kinda weakens the whole thing to begin with
it's not worth spending money on for that reason. and if they are (and i bet they are, 3x over). fuck them.
the VA court is skippign court they refuse to own up to the laws they themselves are running over
and fairfax has stolen hundreds fo thousands from me, damages and otherwise owed by keeping me out of business using false complaints still not proven.
------------------------------
as if i give a crap about hadeeds clean image he's doing well !
if she lied the law says she must own up to it. if she lied
HOWEVER who should beleive a comment made by someone with no identitiy?
that kinda weakens the whole thing to begin with
it's not worth spending money on for that reason. and if they are (and i bet they are, 3x over). fuck them.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
EEhuX
()
Date: January 28, 2014 07:59PM
The truth is an absolute defense against slander or defamation. You can say anything you want online that is factual and true. And you can express your opinion, however extreme. But you cannot just make stuff up about another person or business. That's a sure trip to court, as it should be.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Louis Theroux
()
Date: January 28, 2014 08:06PM
EEhuX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The truth is an absolute defense against slander
> or defamation. You can say anything you want
> online that is factual and true. And you can
> express your opinion, however extreme. But you
> cannot just make stuff up about another person or
> business. That's a sure trip to court, as it
> should be.
Looks like one of the Hadeed goons contacted Cary.
http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/959506.html
"edit by Cary (the admin): The top 2 posts in this thread were both made by the same user. The user's ISP is direcway.com, which is DirectTV's internet service. The fact that they're using DirectTV for internet access makes it extremely unlikely that they originate from Northern Virginia, where broadband internet is readily available."
-------------------------------------------------------
> The truth is an absolute defense against slander
> or defamation. You can say anything you want
> online that is factual and true. And you can
> express your opinion, however extreme. But you
> cannot just make stuff up about another person or
> business. That's a sure trip to court, as it
> should be.
Looks like one of the Hadeed goons contacted Cary.
http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/959506.html
"edit by Cary (the admin): The top 2 posts in this thread were both made by the same user. The user's ISP is direcway.com, which is DirectTV's internet service. The fact that they're using DirectTV for internet access makes it extremely unlikely that they originate from Northern Virginia, where broadband internet is readily available."
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
EbNMX
()
Date: February 08, 2014 10:53AM
Looks like some of the other posts were removed as well.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
EbNMX
()
Date: February 09, 2014 02:51PM
You know something just occurred to me. No one's heard from Cary in a while right? So then who made those edits and removed those posts? Another Admin?
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
JohnB
()
Date: February 09, 2014 04:59PM
Hadeed is a dunecoon and I'm surprised he didn't have someone's head cut off.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
John grapes
()
Date: March 17, 2016 09:50PM
Your language alone destroys all your credability everything he wrote is accurate true and verifiable to anyone interested in spending the time to do the research.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
....
()
Date: March 17, 2016 10:29PM
I like his traffic commercials.
This is Habeeb in the traffic copter. We gotta camel jackknifed on the inner loop 395 at King.
This is Habeeb in the traffic copter. We gotta camel jackknifed on the inner loop 395 at King.
Re: Hadeed Carpet Sends Thugs to Find Critics
Posted by:
Pup
()
Date: March 18, 2016 09:18AM
???? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I complained after I found out the magic carpet
> they sold me, had a 200Lb weight limit and wasn't
> approved by the FAA.
Attachments:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I complained after I found out the magic carpet
> they sold me, had a 200Lb weight limit and wasn't
> approved by the FAA.
Attachments: