Karen Garza will be proposing a recommendation on later high school start times at the School Board’s meeting on September 18 for the Board’s formal consideration. 

The Superintendent’s recommendation, which would be effective for the 2015-16 school year, proposes high schools beginning between 8 and 8:10 a.m., and middle schools beginning at 7:30 a.m. The recommendation includes the three secondary schools beginning their day on the high school schedule. If the School Board approves the recommendation, it will be the Superintendent’s goal to continue to work to move middle school start times later. 

The recommendation has the majority of elementary schools starting at the same time or within five minutes of their current start time. The remaining elementary schools (approximately 25) will start within 10 minutes of their current start time. 

If approved by the Board, the timing would allow families and employees almost a full calendar year to adjust to the change. This recommendation balances the needs of the community, and represents a consensus among many stakeholder groups that could be impacted by this change. The recommendation is the result of community feedback, including eight community meetings and an online feedback form, plus further analysis by staff and the consultants from the Children’s National Medical Center (CNMC), and an in-depth discussion by the School Board at its September 8 work session. The School Board is scheduled to vote on October 23. 

For more details, please visit the Later High School Start Times web page. 

There's only been like 10 threads on this.

Thanks for adding a new one.

Now go start another Springfield Town Center thread, we've only got 7.

(D)ehydrated Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's only been like 10 threads on this.
>
> Thanks for adding a new one.
>
> Now go start another Springfield Town Center
> thread, we've only got 7.


Thank you for posting to this new, improved thread. I'm sure that with brilliant posts such as yours it will be a magic discussion that will shine throughout the eons.

It's not Garza's fault.

Sandy Evans and Megan McLaughlin met with Garza last year and instructed her that she would support the Board's decision for high schools to start and end later each day.

Garza made a joke about the funding of the change. They did not smile.

Exact wording from latest meeting notes: "The School Board indicated that the hybrid option outlined below is the preferred one. Next, the Superintendent will submit this option for the School Board's formal consideration as a new business item at its regular business meeting on September 18."

http://www.fcps.edu/news/starttimes.shtml


See? The SB tells the Supe what to propose, and the Supe will submit it as directed. Regardless of any staff research or facts to the contrary.

Garza and the School Board are well aware that an overwhelming majority of parents, students, and teachers are opposed to the change. Some have actually done the research and know that the science does not show later start times equates to more sleep for teens. Yet they are also well aware that they need the support of certain individuals in the next election.

Surprisingly, they are now saying that they have not heard significant community opposition to what the latest proposal, what they consider a compromise solution.

If you want to voice your opinion, write to them at:

fairfaxcountyschoolboard@fcps.edu

This just a matter of rearranging the deck chairs while the Titanic sinks.

FCPS is taking on water with illegals flooding the system, teaching to the SOL/Common Core tests, and poor teacher morale.

The system is sinking and Fairfax educational leaders are wasting their time on this idiocy.

(I don't mean to attack illegal children, who don't have any agency, and many of whom will work hard and get ahead. Still very high ESOL rates are expensive and drag down the system.)

30 minutes

LOL!

get over yourselves

Based on this latest proposal and the change to full day Mondays, it's clear that Garza is just a puppet for the School Board.

She clearly has no moral fiber or intellectual honesty.

Poor Karen Garza, giving away her credibility.

Almost makes you want to bring back Jack Dale. Almost, not quite.
Attachments:

The decision was made on April 12, 2012. Everything that has happened then was just for show. It would take FOUR members to change their vote. That's not going to happen, regardless of what the voters, parents, teachers, or kids want.

Motion by Sandra S Evans, second by Daniel G Storck.

Final Resolution: Motion Carries

Yes: Ryan McElveen, Tamara D Kaufax, Elizabeth Schultz, Daniel G Storck, Jane K Strauss - Chairman, Ilryong Moon - Vice Chairman, Sandra S Evans, Patricia Hynes, Megan McLaughlin, Patricia S Reed

No: Kathy L Smith, Theodore Velkoff

Yep - decision was made in April. All the "town hall meetings" were just for show. Once enacted, it will never change. Next step will be to buy more busses to align the middle school start times adding to the congestion for the following year. This will have a ripple effect as drivers will have just two runs, thus make less money, and FCPS will have to raise their pay to attract them. Predict that the net gain of sleep in the morning will be about 30 minutes. SLEEP will be smug and members will look for other issues to campaign for such as curtailing sports practice times and amount of homework. Wait and see!

I am a FCPS high school teacher. My students think this is a joke. I asked them if they would get more sleep, or stay up later and get the same amount of sleep they are getting now. They all said that they will stay up later and that whoever made this initiative pass "don't know what's going on with us".

teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a FCPS high school teacher. My students think
> this is a joke. I asked them if they would get
> more sleep, or stay up later and get the same
> amount of sleep they are getting now. They all
> said that they will stay up later and that whoever
> made this initiative pass "don't know what's going
> on with us".

^^^^ This. +1,000,000

teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a FCPS high school teacher. My students think
> this is a joke. I asked them if they would get
> more sleep, or stay up later and get the same
> amount of sleep they are getting now. They all
> said that they will stay up later and that whoever
> made this initiative pass "don't know what's going
> on with us".


Yes, the students always understand the idiocy that comes down from educational "leaders," like SOL/Common Core. It's similar with foot soldiers and the brass, which doesn't know what is happening on the ground.

the issue isn't what time they wake up - before sunlight or not

the issue is how long they are debating it and that they are asking for MORE MONEY

it's a ploy to demand more money - start time was never the issue

$4.9 MILLION to start high schools 40 minutes later in the morning?

Does anyone believe that should be in the top 10 financial priorities?

Why not start at 6:55 am?

If 30 min is nothing, why not before 7:00 or even earlier? It would save gas as traffic would be lighter. It would allow even more time after school for sports and activities. Since most people seem to agree teens can go to bed whenever why not see if they can get in bed by 9:30 am to meed their suggested 8.5 hrs of sleep?

Seriously what is the difference in a 12 year old getting up at 5:30 am to meet a 6:30 am bus for school vs 6:00 am to meet a 6:30 am bus? Hell you could probably reduce the number of buses we have now.

Wake UP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> $4.9 MILLION to start high schools 40 minutes
> later in the morning?
>
> Does anyone believe that should be in the top 10
> financial priorities?

yes I do and I wish they spent more so starts for everyone could be later. 5 million is like .25% of our budget. Christ, if you want quality learning vs quantity/day care sending kids to school before sunrise is perfect. They will learn more if they are awake.

Don't like the new schedules? Blame the downscale hayseed know-nothings at SLEEP. That's where the impetus for all this garbage came from. Just more stupidity from another gang of over-reaching goober right-wing populists.

But, how is 40 more minutes of sleep going to help me? I just want to know what you guys think as parents about this change?

eP99j Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wake UP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > $4.9 MILLION to start high schools 40 minutes
> > later in the morning?
> >
> > Does anyone believe that should be in the top
> 10
> > financial priorities?
>
> yes I do and I wish they spent more so starts for
> everyone could be later. 5 million is like .25%
> of our budget. Christ, if you want quality
> learning vs quantity/day care sending kids to
> school before sunrise is perfect. They will learn
> more if they are awake.

There are 32 children in my child's class, a very crowded small classroom.

The teachers beg us to provide tissues, markers, pencils, glue sticks, etc.

3 students speak little to no English.

2 students need (but do not get) personal instruction due to learning disabilities.

Spending $5 million to change bus schedules is one of the dumbest ideas I can think of.

Parent #1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spending $5 million to change bus schedules is one
> of the dumbest ideas I can think of.

Did you think changing start times was going to be costless? Have you know clue at all? The previously existing bell schedule already was what the new one claims to be -- a compromise that balanced actual student, parent, and community needs with a concurrent desire to maintain low costs. You molly-coddle a bunch of gossipy-housewife whiner-derps by moving away from that, it's going to cost money. They need 27 more buses to pull it off. Ever bought a bus? Ever carried the bill for maintaining one? It's not cheap. This is what the stay-at-home goober pinheads wanted for you. You didn't complain, so now it's what you've got. And they aren't done yet. Be more careful the next time they come around.

Everything costs and sacrifices are made. The early start times in elementary school being changed have cost of fortune. Teachers are pushed to the brink. Do you remember those conferences in Nov in elementary school . Now they are used for staff development and planning. Our principal said we had to do them before or after school if the parent request them only. So that is more work out of contract hours. and less involvement with the parents. Teachers will be leaving in droves from FCPs half of my teacher friends have gone to other counties county and LOVE It. Leave if you can We have classrooms with 30 plus kids but one kid who can t control himself has an aid all the time just to baby sit and make sure he does not poke a kid with a pencil . If you have an average kid which is 80 percent of them FCPS is not the place for your kid anymore .

^ I am a teacher and I am embarrassed by all of the run-on sentences and punctuation errors in the previous post. I am about to retire from teaching and I am appalled at the quality of teachers coming into this profession.

I do have to agree that the degradation in working conditions is not helping to attract high caliber teachers to FCPS.

How do we attract highly qualified teachers?

Higher salaries, and better working conditions. Step-1 is to yell at the Board of Supervisors to fund FCPS properly and pass the tax increases that may be necessary to allow that. The health of the County as a whole depends on the health of its school system. Failure to step up in the next few years will have unpleasant consequences.

Parent #1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eP99j Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wake UP Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > $4.9 MILLION to start high schools 40 minutes
> > > later in the morning?
> > >
> > > Does anyone believe that should be in the top
> > 10
> > > financial priorities?
> >
> > yes I do and I wish they spent more so starts
> for
> > everyone could be later. 5 million is like
> .25%
> > of our budget. Christ, if you want quality
> > learning vs quantity/day care sending kids to
> > school before sunrise is perfect. They will
> learn
> > more if they are awake.
>
> There are 32 children in my child's class, a very
> crowded small classroom.
>
> The teachers beg us to provide tissues, markers,
> pencils, glue sticks, etc.
>
> 3 students speak little to no English.
>
> 2 students need (but do not get) personal
> instruction due to learning disabilities.
>
> Spending $5 million to change bus schedules is one
> of the dumbest ideas I can think of.

No offense but the reason it seems dumb to you may be because you were not smart enough to avoid the crappy school you are in. We are in an excellent school and everyone speaks English very well. If my Elementary school teachers want me to by 50 bucks worth of supplies for the school thats okay. I understand that Im buying for myself and those unable or unwilling to pay.

Any way do a little reading and ignore the low-info trolls here

Anybody watching the school board meeting?

Not one single citizen speaker was anti SLEEP. Not one.

I think the fix is in.

viewer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody watching the school board meeting?
>
> Not one single citizen speaker was anti SLEEP. Not
> one.
>
> I think the fix is in.


The fix is that despite what you trolls all scream about anyone with sense and kids wants later start times. Did any organize against this - no. Why? Well to start with the Koch Bros. didnt donate any money to stir up the idiots on this one; and its a troll issue at best 2. Almost everyone wants this. 3. Its costing a whopping 0.25% of our budget to get a few extra buses (50 years ago when Woodson opened we had enough buses for our students). 4. Because we have a generally well educated population.

Posted by: Ignore the assholes ()
Date: September 18, 2014 03:46PM

Don't like the new schedules? Blame the downscale hayseed know-nothings at SLEEP. That's where the impetus for all this garbage came from. Just more stupidity from another gang of over-reaching goober right-wing populists.

You've got it wrong. Sandy Evans and Phyllis Payne who co-founded SLEEP are very active members of the Fairfax County Democratic Party. Megan McLaughlin is as well. This is not some right-wing populist movement. Politics, really, aren't any part of it. I just want to set the record straight on you dumb trolls that want to blame everything on the GOP.

viewer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody watching the school board meeting?
>
> Not one single citizen speaker was anti SLEEP. Not
> one.
>
> I think the fix is in.


Too bad there isn't a citizen coalition demanding a better and more efficient school system. It seems whenever a dozen parents with too much time on their hands demand something from the school board, they get it. Of course those issues have to involve spending money unnecessarily.

Buying buses is one thing, but where are you going to find the drivers? There has been a shortage of drivers since I was in elementary school. Not enough drivers means that kids will still need to get up early to get their buses. There is no doubt that a 5:45 bus stop is crazy for a 7:20 start time, but that is due to lack of buses AND drivers. Instead of a 5:45 bus time now they might have a 6:30 or 6:45 time.

Great, so those little shits and stay at home yentas will still be all over the road when I'm trying to get to work and extending into evening rush hour? How about sending your precious little children to bed at a reasonable hour. Everyone needs to stop coddling today's youth so much. Pussification of America in full swing.

They're not going to buy any buses.

All summer, at the old Clifton Elementary, they had a bunch of clunkers that they were going to junk. Word on the street is they are keeping them until they find out if SLEEP passes.

These are 17 year old buses that are vermin infested, smoke belching, oil leaking junkers, with rust holes in the bodies.

No way a kid of mine would board one of those rolling toxic waste dumps!

Dems running SLEEP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've got it wrong. Sandy Evans and Phyllis
> Payne who co-founded SLEEP are very active members
> of the Fairfax County Democratic Party. Megan
> McLaughlin is as well. This is not some
> right-wing populist movement. Politics, really,
> aren't any part of it. I just want to set the
> record straight on you dumb trolls that want to
> blame everything on the GOP.

The usual asshole bullshit. Megan McLaughlin played no role in the 2004 founding of SLEEP, and Sandy Evans left (in a huff) soon after. Phyllis Payne, SLEEP, and the FEC have been nothing but worthless right-wing funded attack dogs since. They seek to undermine public support for FCPS simply by lying through their teeth. Along with slander, encouragement of citizen-interference, and support for counter-productive tax cuts, their agenda is to weaken the system further by moving it toward lovely voucher programs. They ultimately wish to see a new populist era wherein property taxes would be cut by more than half and everyone would be on the hook individually for the costs of K-12 education. That would of course be provided in sectarian and other private classes taught by pastors, corporatists, and others who would not be certified in any academic field at all and who would bear no accountability to the public. Buses? Meals? Accommodations for the handicapped? Forget about it.

Face it -- these right-wing SLEEP peeps are the sworn enemies of public education.

just pay your real estate taxes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too bad there isn't a citizen coalition demanding
> a better and more efficient school system. It
> seems whenever a dozen parents with too much time
> on their hands demand something from the school
> board, they get it. Of course those issues have to
> involve spending money unnecessarily.

What aspect of any of this are YOU an expert on? All I see is just another lame-ass trained-seal dumbfuck passing on what he's been trained to pass on. Here, boy...fetch...

cliftonite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're not going to buy any buses.

They're going to buy as few new buses as they can, but that will work out to be about 27 of them. Would have been more if they hadn't been able to hold onto and refurbish some buses that had previously been scheduled for replacement.

Who Are You? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just pay your real estate taxes Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Too bad there isn't a citizen coalition
> demanding
> > a better and more efficient school system. It
> > seems whenever a dozen parents with too much
> time
> > on their hands demand something from the school
> > board, they get it. Of course those issues have
> to
> > involve spending money unnecessarily.
>
> What aspect of any of this are YOU an expert on?
> All I see is just another lame-ass trained-seal
> dumbfuck passing on what he's been trained to pass
> on. Here, boy...fetch...


Relax Karen, you will be ready for a consulting job with Jack in a couple of years. Oh ya, if any EXPERTS had been really involved in the study or the decision , they would realize what a waste of money and resources it is to pacify a bunch of pussies.

> Relax Karen, you will be ready for a consulting
> job with Jack in a couple of years. Oh ya, if any
> EXPERTS had been really involved in the study or
> the decision , they would realize what a waste of
> money and resources it is to pacify a bunch of
> pussies.

THAT'S the kind of intelligence we like to see! Very reassuring!

Ignore the assholes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dems running SLEEP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You've got it wrong. Sandy Evans and Phyllis
> > Payne who co-founded SLEEP are very active
> members
> > of the Fairfax County Democratic Party. Megan
> > McLaughlin is as well.

^^^ TRUE

This is not some
> > right-wing populist movement.

^^^ TRUE


Politics,
> really, aren't any part of it.

^^^ FALSE. Go look at who work with the campaigns.



Megan McLaughlin
> played no role in the 2004 founding of SLEEP,


^^^ Megan was a very early supporter of SLEEP, spoke of their goals extensively. Last I looked, some of her speeches and letters were posted on the SLEEP website.



and
> Sandy Evans left (in a huff) soon after.

Because she recognized the conflict of interest with her elected position. Look at her motions and seconds regarding the SLEEP agenda.


Phyllis
> Payne, SLEEP, and the FEC have been nothing but
> worthless right-wing funded attack dogs since.

Right wing???? Wrong end of the spectrum, bud.



> They seek to undermine public support for FCPS
> simply by lying through their teeth. Along with
> slander, encouragement of citizen-interference,
> and support for counter-productive tax cuts, their
> agenda is to weaken the system further by moving
> it toward lovely voucher programs.

Now you are just spouting nonsense. Nobody associated with the school board is asking for tax cuts. Exactly the opposite.


They
> ultimately wish to see a new populist era wherein
> property taxes would be cut by more than half and
> everyone would be on the hook individually for the
> costs of K-12 education.


More nonsense.



That would of course be
> provided in sectarian and other private classes
> taught by pastors, corporatists, and others who
> would not be certified in any academic field at
> all and who would bear no accountability to the
> public. Buses? Meals? Accommodations for the
> handicapped? Forget about it.


Do you even follow established law over the past 30 years or so?


>
> Face it -- these right-wing SLEEP peeps are the
> sworn enemies of public education.


You may wish this was true, but it's not. FCPS and the BoS are controlled by Democrats and that is not likely to change any time soon.

Your attempts at recreating history are calamitously awful. As a local politician, McLaughlin spoke and listened to all manner of local area groups, often being photographed at their meetings. Simply put however, she was not either a founder or promoter of either SLEEP or FEC. That was all Phyllis Payne, a right-wing, anti-government populist.

Meanwhile, the Board had no reason at all to take up bell schedule changes other than as an attempt to put a cap on the mounting din and sentiment from the goober-right holding that the Board and Superintendent Dale were imperious out-of-touch lefties bent on ignoring the wishes of goober-parents and the well-being of their goober-children students. TEA Party neighborhood meetings, flash-mobbing the FCPS website, phony claims and evidence. All very Koch brothers and Bush and WMD like. So the Board made a show of giving them what they had asked for -- they tinkered a little here and there and swapped out middle-schoolers for high-schoolers, and now the SLEEP people are all dead for at least a decade. See how that works?

This must be Liz Bradsher, Stu Gibson, Kathy Smith, Jack Dale, Dean Tistadt or one of their friends trying to spread misinformation again.

SLEEP was co-founded by Evans and Payne. Both are Democrats. So is McLaughlin. And most of the people who raised hell about Jack Dale and his cronies were also Democrats. Not all, of course. Dale's enemies came from all across the political spectrum.


Stooge Missed the Boat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your attempts at recreating history are
> calamitously awful. As a local politician,
> McLaughlin spoke and listened to all manner of
> local area groups, often being photographed at
> their meetings. Simply put however, she was not
> either a founder or promoter of either SLEEP or
> FEC. That was all Phyllis Payne, a right-wing,
> anti-government populist.
>
> Meanwhile, the Board had no reason at all to take
> up bell schedule changes other than as an attempt
> to put a cap on the mounting din and sentiment
> from the goober-right holding that the Board and
> Superintendent Dale were imperious out-of-touch
> lefties bent on ignoring the wishes of
> goober-parents and the well-being of their
> goober-children students. TEA Party neighborhood
> meetings, flash-mobbing the FCPS website, phony
> claims and evidence. All very Koch brothers and
> Bush and WMD like. So the Board made a show of
> giving them what they had asked for -- they
> tinkered a little here and there and swapped out
> middle-schoolers for high-schoolers, and now the
> SLEEP people are all dead for at least a decade.
> See how that works?

At least purge the website before rewriting history. Megan McLaughlin was in on it from the start.......


March 2010: Megan McLaughlin testifies, “Later Start Times” for our high school students will help ALL students, including varsity athletes. And just like our neighboring school systems which offer later start-times AND varsity sports, so too can FCPS.” According to Phyllis Payne, “SLEEP is hearing from parents at [middle schools with new, later start times] that 30 minutes has made a huge difference in the health, well-being, happiness, and performance of their children. And, the parents are happy to be sleeping longer as well.” To learn more about how much (or how little) sleep Fairfax teens get or how they feel during school, please watch this short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puWJuuO4LAk.

http://www.sleepinfairfax.org/history.htm

Megan McLaughlin testified for SLEEP. Transcript below. Their decade-long campaign is near the finish line and now they want to disassociate from it? No chance.


March 4, 2010 School Board Testimony of Megan McLaughlin, M.S.W.

Dr. Dale, Chairman Smith and Members of the School Board:

Good Evening. My name is Megan McLaughlin and I have 3 sons in the Woodson HS Pyramid. Before I begin my official remarks, I would like to provide the following context. Both my husband & I were varsity athletes in high school, and we strongly support the value of these programs in our school system.

In honor of the upcoming National Sleep Week, I am here tonight to talk about how “Later Start Times” for our high school students will help ALL students, including varsity athletes. And just like our neighboring school systems which offer later start-times AND varsity sports, so too can FCPS.

For anyone who’s ever played sports, they know the coach’s cardinal rule on the day before a competition: Go home and get a good night’s sleep. Coaches don’t need scientific studies to validate what they already know: Tired athletes cannot perform their very best. Therefore, sufficient sleep is critical to an athlete’s success. This also holds true for ACADEMIC performance.

This being the case, healthy start-times benefit BOTH the academic and athletic performance of our students.

Unfortunately, last year’s FCPS proposal for later start-times (Iteration 3) has created the illusion that later-start times will threaten after-school activities, including high school athletics. This proposal also required drastic shifts in start-times for virtually all ES, MS, & HS, with some changing by 2 hours. Not surprisingly, the vast majority of the public, including myself, voted against Iteration 3. But I believe FCPS can solve this problem, and do the right thing for ALL students.

Simply look at our neighboring school districts: Arlington, Loudoun, Alexandria and Falls Church City. They all have healthy start-times that begin after 8am. Their transportation departments and budget offices have figured out a way to do this AND continue to offer sports & after-school activities. I have every confidence that FCPS staff can achieve the same.

Healthy start-times can be done with as little as a 30-60minute shift in time. It doesn’t have to drastically up-end family schedules, practices, or dinner hour. But consider what is at stake if we don’t fix our high school/middle school start-times.

Simply read Columnist George Will’s article in today’s Washington Post. He reports that children are getting an hour less of sleep than they did 30 years ago. This loss of sleep negatively impacts IQ points, as well as increases body weight. He also reports that with a steep decline in sleep hours, there is a strikingly negative impact on academic performance. Tired children have trouble retaining their daily lessons because lack of sleep affects memory encoding. In other words, the more you learn during the day, the more sleep you will need that night.
He also cites the statistic that young adults are responsible for half of the 100,000 annual "fall asleep" automobile crashes. He suggests that more school systems should follow the lead of Edina, MN. When they shifted their start time from 7:25 a.m. to 8:30 a.m., the Math & Verbal SAT scores rose substantially at their school.

The ability to fund “healthy start-times” in this current economy is a practical matter that must be considered. But at what cost can FCPS continue to keep these unhealthy start-times for its students?
Let’s do the right thing. Please request Dean Tisdadt and his staff to consult with our neighboring school districts, identify how they make it work, and then implement these types of solutions for FCPS. If these other districts can accomplish later start-times, so can FCPS!

Thank you.

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/news/2014/feb/12/school-board-votes-longer-sleep/

According to SLEEP, a local group advocating for later high school start times in Fairfax County, 72 out of 92 counties in Virginia have a high school start time of 8 a.m. or later.

#Many students and parents say that the 7:20 a.m. start time of high schools in Fairfax County is having a devastating effect on students’ health and well-being.

#"There is concrete evidence proving that teens with adequate sleep have improved learning, better memory, and a brighter outlook," said Beth Steel, who advocated for later start times on behalf of SLEEP at a recent school board hearing.

#As a follow-up motion to approving the FY 2015 budget, the school board passed a motion recommending that Superintendent Karen Garza identify savings from the 2014 annual bus route review and earmarks those savings to offset the possible cost of implementing later high school start times.

#THE MOTION was introduced by Mason District School Board member and SLEEP co-founder Sandy Evans.

#"I offer this motion as a very modest approach to earmarking some transportation funds to help implement later high school start times," Evans said. "We find efficiencies in our bus service. If we find these efficiencies, it simply makes sense to recognize that these resources may soon be needed to implement improved bell schedules."

#Evans stressed that the motion does not change the transfer request of the FY 2015 proposed budget, and does not take money out of any other budgets.

#"As we look at the best approach to make sure that all of our students, K through 12, have healthy schedules, it’s important to show that we’re looking ahead and moving in the right direction," Evans said. "The community has been waiting a long time for this. This is a small way for us to say that we do indeed care about and are committed to the physical, emotional and academic health of our teen students."

#Springfield District School Board member Elizabeth Schultz and Providence District School Board member Patty Reed referred to an April 2012 resolution adopted by the board, which aimed to start high schools after 8 a.m., as a reason to approve this motion.

#"We have the opportunity right now to demonstrably put our foot down and say, as we identify savings, we are going to make strides to fulfilling the promise that the resolution set more than a year ago. We’re not going to do it with no money. This is the time for us to say, we choose to take the next step," Schultz said.

#SLEEP, which stands for Start Later for Excellence in Education Proposal, has been advocating for later start times in Fairfax County since 2004.

#"It was April 2012 that this board set the goal of later start times for high schoolers. This board has also established the goal of physical health and safety and well-being of our students. For those reasons, I feel that we need to be pursuing this with added haste and zest," Reed said.



http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/news/2014/feb/12/school-board-votes-longer-sleep/

#SLEEP ADVOCATES voiced their concerns for implementing a later start time as soon as possible at the last public hearing on the budget on Jan. 27.

#"In some respects, this is the longest running community engagement project that FCPS has ever had. Now, it is time to act," said SLEEP advocate Phyllis Payne.

#Mount Vernon School Board member Dan Storck was among the supporters of Evans’ motion.

#"All we are asking for is that with any savings that we have, from now on in a sense, at least in this budget year, that we will invest that in the way that this board has already said that we should invest it, which is in our kids, giving them an opportunity to get a little more sleep at night, to be a little more rested and do better in school frankly," Storck said.

#THE MOTION was introduced by Mason District School Board member and SLEEP co-founder Sandy Evans. "I offer this motion as a very modest approach to earmarking some transportation funds to help implement later high school start times."

Springfield District School Board member Elizabeth Schultz and Providence District School Board member Patty Reed referred to an April 2012 resolution adopted by the board, which aimed to start high schools after 8 a.m., as a reason to approve this motion.

Mount Vernon School Board member Dan Storck was among the supporters of Evans’ motion.

Sandy Evans
Elizabeth Schultz
Patty Reed
Dan Storck
Megan McLaughlin

Why would anyone speak publicly against a decision that was already made long ago?

Jesus, noodleheads -- the whole thing is a political co-opting of what had become dangerous waves on the populist right. The Democratic board came up with a plan to defuse the danger by appearing to do what the goobers had been demanding. That plan has worked quite well, yet nothing has actually changed. They played musical chairs between high schools and middle schools and coughed up $5 million for buses they actually needed anyway. That's it. Appearing to have gotten all that they asked for, SLEEP in the end got nothing but the wind sucked out of their sails. This is how the game is played, boys and girls.

Capt. Merrill Stubing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This just a matter of rearranging the deck chairs
> while the Titanic sinks.
>
> FCPS is taking on water with illegals flooding the
> system, teaching to the SOL/Common Core tests, and
> poor teacher morale.
>
> The system is sinking and Fairfax educational
> leaders are wasting their time on this idiocy.
>
> (I don't mean to attack illegal children, who
> don't have any agency, and many of whom will work
> hard and get ahead. Still very high ESOL rates are
> expensive and drag down the system.)

You must be the person who got fired from FCPS recently and has been spamming message boards nonstop ever since. We feel your pain, but take it somewhere else.

If you push the start time back, kids will just view it as an opportunity to stay up late and text/watch tv/surf the internet etc.

This whole high school sleep/start thing is just ridiculous. Ask any of the students if they will be getting any more sleep next year. The answer is "NO" because they are now going to stay up even later.

Many parents have totally abdicated their role as parents. It is fine to load up your kids with technology and electronics, but you have to establish some basic ground rules about it and enforce those. All smartphones and PC/laptop/tablets and texting and television and video games MUST be turned off at 10 p.m. Sunday thru Thursday nights. None of those devices can remain in the teen's bedroom at night. Turn it all off -- and they will go to sleep just fine.

Wake up parents!

Teens physiology is different - they stay up later by kindle or by candle. I know that it can be difficult to process scientific facts but there it is. You can blame parenting, or evolution (if the thought of that doesnt make baby Jesus cry for you) but in truth is just a scientific fact.

You know in the 50's when school times were later, we adults could afford to spend time with our kids - we could also afford enough buses to get them to school After the sun rises. Nowadays not so much. Today its just easier to blame the Other bad parents out there. Its never ever ourselves. We never look at why we have to get our kids up in the pitch black of 6am we just accept that 'this is what hard work looks like.' No its not. Hard work looks like adults creating a society where were can earn enough money to pay for enough buses for our kids.

Oh and if you are the type looking for more excuses just look in the bag of shit the Koch brothers feed you and you can grab something convenient - oh look immigrants!

ggooos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teens physiology is different - they stay up later
> by kindle or by candle. I know that it can be
> difficult to process scientific facts but there it
> is. You can blame parenting, or evolution (if the
> thought of that doesnt make baby Jesus cry for
> you) but in truth is just a scientific fact.
>
> You know in the 50's when school times were later,
> we adults could afford to spend time with our kids
> - we could also afford enough buses to get them to
> school After the sun rises. Nowadays not so much.
> Today its just easier to blame the Other bad
> parents out there. Its never ever ourselves. We
> never look at why we have to get our kids up in
> the pitch black of 6am we just accept that 'this
> is what hard work looks like.' No its not. Hard
> work looks like adults creating a society where
> were can earn enough money to pay for enough buses
> for our kids.
>
> Oh and if you are the type looking for more
> excuses just look in the bag of shit the Koch
> brothers feed you and you can grab something
> convenient - oh look immigrants!

+1000

I'm a teacher and years ago I was against the change, when my salary was higher, now that is has been on a freeze for years, my morale has taken a small hit. I no longer see sacrificing my sleep as something I'm willing to do anymore. I just don't.
Getting up at a normal time and being able to enjoy the entire evening, like many of my fellow DMVers, is now a priority for me.
FCPS pushes and pushes and it's high time that something gives. If I get more sleep, so be it. At least let me be able to eat a late dinner with my colleagues and friends and not have to worry about teaching to kids who aren't even awake themselves.

All this mess for an extra 30 minutes. 30 MINUTES! Ridiculous.

Maybe you can work 12 months a year like the rest of your fellow DMVers too. Never met a teacher who didn't have have a complaint about their jobs.

really tough Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe you can work 12 months a year like the rest
> of your fellow DMVers too. Never met a teacher who
> didn't have have a complaint about their jobs.


You try it
Hey its easy....

Let us know then how easy it is.

xtchr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All this mess for an extra 30 minutes. 30
> MINUTES! Ridiculous.


Not even 30 minutes. With students and buses facing more traffic as the start time is moved deeper into morning rush hour, it's more like 15-20 minutes. How many kids will just stay up a little later? Most of them. This is just the kind of idiocy for which FCPS and educational leaders are infamous.

released the following statement regarding the school cancellations:

"This was not organized by FCPS but we certainly understand the frustration of teachers and the entire community are experiencing when their elected officials are making decisions in secret, wasting taxpayer dollars, and disrespecting the community's goals for their students. Last night's discussion about censoring the AP History curriculum is yet another example of this board majority shortchanging our students."

FCPSIdiocy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> xtchr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All this mess for an extra 30 minutes. 30
> > MINUTES! Ridiculous.
>
>
> Not even 30 minutes. With students and buses
> facing more traffic as the start time is moved
> deeper into morning rush hour, it's more like
> 15-20 minutes. How many kids will just stay up a
> little later? Most of them. This is just the kind
> of idiocy for which FCPS and educational leaders
> are infamous.

The idiocy was moving schools to 725 start from previous later start times. I literally HATE all you aholes forcing our kids to get up at 6 because 'thats the way its always been...' Its not how its always been. 8-830 used to be the norm till cheap jackasses decided we could save money by crapping all over people with no control the kids. This isnt a job for them - they Have to go to school.

Incompetent grown-ups because - we have to make our kids get up well before sunrise because with 2.5 TRILLION dollar budget we are too poor to afford enough buses.

Bullshit.

You are up Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> really tough Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maybe you can work 12 months a year like the
> rest
> > of your fellow DMVers too. Never met a teacher
> who
> > didn't have have a complaint about their jobs.
>
>
> You try it
> Hey its easy....
>
> Let us know then how easy it is.


There are plenty of hard jobs. most are 12 months a year though. Teachers whine more than any group collectively and most will tell you after happy hour if it weren't for being off every holiday, 2 weeks at Christmas and 2 1/2 months off during the summer, they would find another profession. So keep pretending its reaching the breaking point. There is a line to take your job with plenty of young, hard working college graduates. If 30 minutes later start time is really going tp make your life so much better, try working in the real world.

kctyv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Incompetent grown-ups because - we have to make
> our kids get up well before sunrise because with
> 2.5 TRILLION dollar budget we are too poor to
> afford enough buses.
>
> Bullshit.

FCPS has a "2.5 TRILLION dollar budget"? We could afford gold plated buses for every single kid with that much money!

The entire change is BS.

Teens, many times with abdicating parents not part of the decision process, choose the time they go to bed. Left on their own with social media every night, most will always stay up too late. If they would choose to go to bed earlier, they would get a full night's sleep. It is that simple.

Parentz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The entire change is BS.
>
> Teens, many times with abdicating parents not part
> of the decision process, choose the time they go
> to bed. Left on their own with social media every
> night, most will always stay up too late. If they
> would choose to go to bed earlier, they would get
> a full night's sleep. It is that simple.


Except that is untrue. Scientific fact is their sleep pattern is different. Teens fall asleep later by Kindle or by candle. Sorry, but thanks for trying. Please sell your home-spun anti-science bullshit elsewhere - we're all full up here...

SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kctyv Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Incompetent grown-ups because - we have to make
> > our kids get up well before sunrise because
> with
> > 2.5 TRILLION dollar budget we are too poor to
> > afford enough buses.
> >
> > Bullshit.
>
> FCPS has a "2.5 TRILLION dollar budget"? We could
> afford gold plated buses for every single kid with
> that much money!


I think that was mega-troll. But we do have 2.5 Billion -seems like enough to afford enough buses to me.

With the later start time, my child would have to allow ten extra minutes of driving time to arrive at school at the same time. It's because the start time will be deeper into rush hour. So it's only theoretical 20 extra minutes of sleep. Clearly some nights a high school student would stay up a little later when they know they are getting up a little later. So $5 million, negative impact on after-school activities for many (not only students), and worse traffic. Why? Nothing, really.

home-spun anti-science bullshit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Parentz Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The entire change is BS.
> >
> > Teens, many times with abdicating parents not
> part
> > of the decision process, choose the time they
> go
> > to bed. Left on their own with social media
> every
> > night, most will always stay up too late. If
> they
> > would choose to go to bed earlier, they would
> get
> > a full night's sleep. It is that simple.
>
>
> Except that is untrue. Scientific fact is their
> sleep pattern is different. Teens fall asleep
> later by Kindle or by candle. Sorry, but thanks
> for trying. Please sell your home-spun
> anti-science bullshit elsewhere - we're all full
> up here...

Your "scientific fact" is only true for a minority of students. 30% of FCPS students already report getting over 8 hours of sleep every night. Another study reported that over 60% of teens feel ready to sleep before 11pm.

You should try reading the studies and see who is really throwing around the bullshit.

SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> home-spun anti-science bullshit Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Parentz Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The entire change is BS.
> > >
> > > Teens, many times with abdicating parents not
> > part
> > > of the decision process, choose the time they
> > go
> > > to bed. Left on their own with social media
> > every
> > > night, most will always stay up too late. If
> > they
> > > would choose to go to bed earlier, they would
> > get
> > > a full night's sleep. It is that simple.
> >
> >
> > Except that is untrue. Scientific fact is
> their
> > sleep pattern is different. Teens fall asleep
> > later by Kindle or by candle. Sorry, but
> thanks
> > for trying. Please sell your home-spun
> > anti-science bullshit elsewhere - we're all
> full
> > up here...
>
> Your "scientific fact" is only true for a minority
> of students. 30% of FCPS students already report
> getting over 8 hours of sleep every night.
> Another study reported that over 60% of teens feel
> ready to sleep before 11pm.
>
> You should try reading the studies and see who is
> really throwing around the bullshit.


If you are not a troll cite your references - influence some people. Anyway teens especially need min. 9-10 hrs of sleep http://www.cdc.gov/sleep/about_sleep/how_much_sleep.htm so only 30% reporting 8 or more means at least 70% are not getting even close to enough sleep - thanks for proving the point against your argument.

Facts are hard Trolls like you are plentiful. Folks dont be fooled by the barking dogs - trust your instincts and common sense. Kids need sleep and look around at 6am, not many people are up but ALL the Middle/HS students are up. Why is that?

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/let-them-sleep-docs-want-later-school-times-teens-n186976

mevnC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLEEPing Idiots Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > home-spun anti-science bullshit Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Parentz Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > The entire change is BS.
> > > >
> > > > Teens, many times with abdicating parents
> not
> > > part
> > > > of the decision process, choose the time
> they
> > > go
> > > > to bed. Left on their own with social
> media
> > > every
> > > > night, most will always stay up too late.
> If
> > > they
> > > > would choose to go to bed earlier, they
> would
> > > get
> > > > a full night's sleep. It is that simple.
> > >
> > >
> > > Except that is untrue. Scientific fact is
> > their
> > > sleep pattern is different. Teens fall
> asleep
> > > later by Kindle or by candle. Sorry, but
> > thanks
> > > for trying. Please sell your home-spun
> > > anti-science bullshit elsewhere - we're all
> > full
> > > up here...
> >
> > Your "scientific fact" is only true for a
> minority
> > of students. 30% of FCPS students already
> report
> > getting over 8 hours of sleep every night.
> > Another study reported that over 60% of teens
> feel
> > ready to sleep before 11pm.
> >
> > You should try reading the studies and see who
> is
> > really throwing around the bullshit.
>
>
> If you are not a troll cite your references -
> influence some people. Anyway teens especially
> need min. 9-10 hrs of sleep
> http://www.cdc.gov/sleep/about_sleep/how_much_slee
> p.htm so only 30% reporting 8 or more means at
> least 70% are not getting even close to enough
> sleep - thanks for proving the point against your
> argument.

The point of the 30% stat was to show it's not impossible to get a reasonable amount of sleep in FCPS, and all the evidence in FCPS shows that the 9-10 hrs of sleep is really not necessary for good performance anyway. Besides, SLEEP has now changed the minimum to 8.5 hours, and 8 hours is not a far cry from that. A significant percentage more could go to sleep earlier if they weren't doing homework, but changing start times won't help with that.

The 60% feeling sleepy before 11pm is from "Examining the Impact of Later High School Start Times on the Health and Academic Performance of High School Students: A Multi-Site Study" - Dr. Wahlstrom, Table 5.

Table 38 of that same study shows that in 20 out of 30 standarized tests, there was no statistically significant correlation between later start times and test scores. 2 of the cases showed a decrease in test scores, and 3 found an increase. So, if anything, later start times are correlated with NOTHING, and shockingly, SLEEP is lying about improved academic performance.

Want some more? How about Table 38 - every school in the study either had a DECREASE in attendance rate or had no significant correlation. So why is SLEEP lying again about attendance rates increasing with later start times?

>
> Facts are hard Trolls like you are plentiful.
> Folks dont be fooled by the barking dogs - trust
> your instincts and common sense. Kids need sleep
> and look around at 6am, not many people are up but
> ALL the Middle/HS students are up. Why is that?

Not a troll, just reading the research. You should try it.

Not many people are up at 6 am? You should try looking around some more.

Well its official I have to get up at NIGHT to have my kid ready to go to school. I get up at 545am (night) so I can get my 12 year old up at 6am (astronomical twilight) so he can be at school before Civil Twilight ends at 720am. I wake up at night and my son has to be at school before daylight.

Also, Ive noticed even the early risers are still asleep at 630 when we walk to the bus stop. Seems the darkness signals sleep to everyone except kids forced to go to school early. As my son said this morning 'you know something is wrong when you are up even before the elderly.' He is right...

Looks like on or about 10/31 will be the darkest - your kid will technically get up at night to go to school http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/washington-dc?month=10&year=2014

lol

drones

The later start times for hs is a ridiculous idea. Many parents go to sleep before their kids and don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since the kids know they can sleep later, they will simply stay up later netting them no more sleep at all. If you ask kids, chances are that they will tell you as much.

Secondly, teacher who have second jobs (which is a ton of them) since the county refuses to pay us properly will have to get to those later or find different ones.

Finally, and I may be wrong about this, but I believe it will actually COST the county something. Guess who will get to feel the squeeze first? Teachers. Our paltry "raise" this year will disappear.

I know there will be a lot of people who will post about me being a whining teacher etc, but this is a nonsensical move. What else is new?

Teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The later start times for hs is a ridiculous idea.
> Many parents go to sleep before their kids and
> don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since the
> kids know they can sleep later, they will simply
> stay up later netting them no more sleep at all.
> If you ask kids, chances are that they will tell
> you as much.
>
> Secondly, teacher who have second jobs (which is
> a ton of them) since the county refuses to pay us
> properly will have to get to those later or find
> different ones.
>
> Finally, and I may be wrong about this, but I
> believe it will actually COST the county
> something. Guess who will get to feel the squeeze
> first? Teachers. Our paltry "raise" this year will
> disappear.
>
> I know there will be a lot of people who will post
> about me being a whining teacher etc, but this is
> a nonsensical move. What else is new?

You 100% correct. I have a kid in HS so I know you are right on both points. Facts are not whining.

Teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The later start times for hs is a ridiculous idea.
> Many parents go to sleep before their kids and
> don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since the
> kids know they can sleep later, they will simply
> stay up later netting them no more sleep at all.
> If you ask kids, chances are that they will tell
> you as much.
>
> Secondly, teacher who have second jobs (which is
> a ton of them) since the county refuses to pay us
> properly will have to get to those later or find
> different ones.
>
> Finally, and I may be wrong about this, but I
> believe it will actually COST the county
> something. Guess who will get to feel the squeeze
> first? Teachers. Our paltry "raise" this year will
> disappear.
>
> I know there will be a lot of people who will post
> about me being a whining teacher etc, but this is
> a nonsensical move. What else is new?

I appreciate teachers and I do think you all should earn more.

Your argument is really just your opinion though. You have no data on how many kids would stay up later with later start times. I do know there is plenty of data showing the physiology of teens and the fact that going to bed early is just not what they are designed to do. Check the science.

As to the money - we are too cheap on our schools but that is not the kids fault. My 12 year old now gets up at NIGHT to go to school. Why? Which scientific evidence is there this is good for learning. I know there is a lot of evidence this is very bad for learning and health. Those are the facts.

Saying 'they will just stay up later' is not fact is a statement of speculation. Kids getting up at night to attend school is a failure of the grown-ups.

You get an A for effort and a C- for content.

TED talk on Sleep.

The brain uses a quarter of the body's entire energy supply, yet only accounts for about two percent of the body's mass. So how does this unique organ receive and, perhaps more importantly, rid itself of vital nutrients? New research suggests it has to do with sleep.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_iliff_one_more_reason_to_get_a_good_night_s_sleep

Did TED mention that the brain needs to sleep until mid morning?

3cKtx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did TED mention that the brain needs to sleep
> until mid morning?


Well my 12 year old has to wake up at Night to get to 7th grade. Night. The stars are quite beautiful even 30 min later when we walk to the bus. Sunrise is ~723 am today - would sleeping in till just before sunrise be 'mid morning' to you?

I guess in a way you successfully make an argument that waking up early is effective as its likely You were afforded a later start schedule than 720am and you are not a good critical thinker. Maybe it doesnt matter after all...

So, 7:24, you think it is better to get home at dark? Families struggle enough already to have dinner together. Wait until activities go till 9.

Teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The later start times for hs is a ridiculous idea.
> Many parents go to sleep before their kids and
> don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since the
> kids know they can sleep later, they will simply
> stay up later netting them no more sleep at all.
> If you ask kids, chances are that they will tell
> you as much.
>
> Secondly, teacher who have second jobs (which is
> a ton of them) since the county refuses to pay us
> properly will have to get to those later or find
> different ones.
>
> Finally, and I may be wrong about this, but I
> believe it will actually COST the county
> something. Guess who will get to feel the squeeze
> first? Teachers. Our paltry "raise" this year will
> disappear.
>
> I know there will be a lot of people who will post
> about me being a whining teacher etc, but this is
> a nonsensical move. What else is new?

I'm with you. Those hucksters!

kDjVV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teacher Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The later start times for hs is a ridiculous
> idea.
> > Many parents go to sleep before their kids and
> > don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since the
> > kids know they can sleep later, they will
> simply
> > stay up later netting them no more sleep at
> all.
> > If you ask kids, chances are that they will
> tell
> > you as much.
> >
> > Secondly, teacher who have second jobs (which
> is
> > a ton of them) since the county refuses to pay
> us
> > properly will have to get to those later or
> find
> > different ones.
> >
> > Finally, and I may be wrong about this, but I
> > believe it will actually COST the county
> > something. Guess who will get to feel the
> squeeze
> > first? Teachers. Our paltry "raise" this year
> will
> > disappear.
> >
> > I know there will be a lot of people who will
> post
> > about me being a whining teacher etc, but this
> is
> > a nonsensical move. What else is new?
>
> I appreciate teachers and I do think you all
> should earn more.
>
> Your argument is really just your opinion though.
> You have no data on how many kids would stay up
> later with later start times. I do know there is
> plenty of data showing the physiology of teens and
> the fact that going to bed early is just not what
> they are designed to do. Check the science.
>
> As to the money - we are too cheap on our schools
> but that is not the kids fault. My 12 year old
> now gets up at NIGHT to go to school. Why? Which
> scientific evidence is there this is good for
> learning. I know there is a lot of evidence this
> is very bad for learning and health. Those are
> the facts.
>
> Saying 'they will just stay up later' is not fact
> is a statement of speculation. Kids getting up at
> night to attend school is a failure of the
> grown-ups.
>
> You get an A for effort and a C- for content.


Well, in fairness, the opposite argument is mere speculation too. If you are going to argue that I can't prove that kids won't stay up later, fine, but you can't make the counter argument for the same reason. Based on evidence that I have garnered via talking to kids and parents, it is my belief that they WILL stay up later.
You also say that "going to bed early is just not what they [teens] are designed to do". Okay, so how exactly does that help your argument? They aren't designed to go to bed early, but that in no way means they will go to bed at the same time that they are now if they are afforded the opportunity to get to school later. And, by the way, I believe it's the way that it has been done for about a hundred or more years in this country, and it seems to have worked pretty well up to this point when helicopter parents, who are likely to shut down the chopper before their kids hit the sack, pushed their agenda forward.And, by the way asking a kid to go to bed early isn't violating some biological imperative. Perhaps it would be more difficult, but it's not like forcing a human to exist without sustenance.
FInally, we agree on the money aspect, but scientific evidence about what is good for learning changes constantly. The New York Times just recently ran an article about how physical education and activity prime the body for academic success, but what has happened to PE? Helicopter parents have taken the competition out of it so less athletic kids don't get their feelings hurt, and it has become a waste of time. Furthermore, we have known for years that the current method of schooling, sitting for prolonged periods and being attentive, favors girls, yet we don't change it. Educational data fluctuates constantly and evolves with technology, cultural assimilation, etc. For once, it would be nice to hear something that favors teachers without what favors the kids as kids learn in myriad different ways and nearly all teachers are cash strapped.

So, I feel you got an A for effort but a D at best for content!

I would rather go to school before the sun comes up than have to come home from after school activities in the dark, in rush hour.

Teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kDjVV Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Teacher Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The later start times for hs is a ridiculous
> > idea.
> > > Many parents go to sleep before their kids
> and
> > > don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since
> the
> > > kids know they can sleep later, they will
> > simply
> > > stay up later netting them no more sleep at
> > all.
> > > If you ask kids, chances are that they will
> > tell
> > > you as much.
> > >
> > > Secondly, teacher who have second jobs
> (which
> > is
> > > a ton of them) since the county refuses to
> pay
> > us
> > > properly will have to get to those later or
> > find
> > > different ones.
> > >
> > > Finally, and I may be wrong about this, but I
> > > believe it will actually COST the county
> > > something. Guess who will get to feel the
> > squeeze
> > > first? Teachers. Our paltry "raise" this year
> > will
> > > disappear.
> > >
> > > I know there will be a lot of people who will
> > post
> > > about me being a whining teacher etc, but
> this
> > is
> > > a nonsensical move. What else is new?
> >
> > I appreciate teachers and I do think you all
> > should earn more.
> >
> > Your argument is really just your opinion
> though.
> > You have no data on how many kids would stay up
> > later with later start times. I do know there
> is
> > plenty of data showing the physiology of teens
> and
> > the fact that going to bed early is just not
> what
> > they are designed to do. Check the science.
> >
> > As to the money - we are too cheap on our
> schools
> > but that is not the kids fault. My 12 year old
> > now gets up at NIGHT to go to school. Why?
> Which
> > scientific evidence is there this is good for
> > learning. I know there is a lot of evidence
> this
> > is very bad for learning and health. Those are
> > the facts.
> >
> > Saying 'they will just stay up later' is not
> fact
> > is a statement of speculation. Kids getting up
> at
> > night to attend school is a failure of the
> > grown-ups.
> >
> > You get an A for effort and a C- for content.
>
>
> Well, in fairness, the opposite argument is mere
> speculation too. If you are going to argue that I
> can't prove that kids won't stay up later, fine,
> but you can't make the counter argument for the
> same reason. Based on evidence that I have
> garnered via talking to kids and parents, it is my
> belief that they WILL stay up later.
> You also say that "going to bed early is just not
> what they [teens] are designed to do". Okay, so
> how exactly does that help your argument? They
> aren't designed to go to bed early, but that in no
> way means they will go to bed at the same time
> that they are now if they are afforded the
> opportunity to get to school later. And, by the
> way, I believe it's the way that it has been done
> for about a hundred or more years in this country,
> and it seems to have worked pretty well up to this
> point when helicopter parents, who are likely to
> shut down the chopper before their kids hit the
> sack, pushed their agenda forward.And, by the way
> asking a kid to go to bed early isn't violating
> some biological imperative. Perhaps it would be
> more difficult, but it's not like forcing a human
> to exist without sustenance.
> FInally, we agree on the money aspect, but
> scientific evidence about what is good for
> learning changes constantly. The New York Times
> just recently ran an article about how physical
> education and activity prime the body for academic
> success, but what has happened to PE? Helicopter
> parents have taken the competition out of it so
> less athletic kids don't get their feelings hurt,
> and it has become a waste of time. Furthermore, we
> have known for years that the current method of
> schooling, sitting for prolonged periods and being
> attentive, favors girls, yet we don't change it.
> Educational data fluctuates constantly and evolves
> with technology, cultural assimilation, etc. For
> once, it would be nice to hear something that
> favors teachers without what favors the kids as
> kids learn in myriad different ways and nearly all
> teachers are cash strapped.
>
> So, I feel you got an A for effort but a D at best
> for content!

What a senseless rant. I would lower your grade to an F but I know this is a troll - no teacher would present such a poor retort. By poor I mean strawman bs, 'working for over a hundred years' (all the way back to the good old days before child labor laws), some blathering about helicopter parents and athletics. You make the argument about the system working just fine for a hundred years in one breath then 'Educational data fluctuates constantly and evolves with technology'

weird

buwFV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teacher Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > kDjVV Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Teacher Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > The later start times for hs is a
> ridiculous
> > > idea.
> > > > Many parents go to sleep before their kids
> > and
> > > > don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since
> > the
> > > > kids know they can sleep later, they will
> > > simply
> > > > stay up later netting them no more sleep at
> > > all.
> > > > If you ask kids, chances are that they will
> > > tell
> > > > you as much.
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, teacher who have second jobs
> > (which
> > > is
> > > > a ton of them) since the county refuses to
> > pay
> > > us
> > > > properly will have to get to those later or
> > > find
> > > > different ones.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, and I may be wrong about this, but
> I
> > > > believe it will actually COST the county
> > > > something. Guess who will get to feel the
> > > squeeze
> > > > first? Teachers. Our paltry "raise" this
> year
> > > will
> > > > disappear.
> > > >
> > > > I know there will be a lot of people who
> will
> > > post
> > > > about me being a whining teacher etc, but
> > this
> > > is
> > > > a nonsensical move. What else is new?
> > >
> > > I appreciate teachers and I do think you all
> > > should earn more.
> > >
> > > Your argument is really just your opinion
> > though.
> > > You have no data on how many kids would stay
> up
> > > later with later start times. I do know
> there
> > is
> > > plenty of data showing the physiology of
> teens
> > and
> > > the fact that going to bed early is just not
> > what
> > > they are designed to do. Check the science.
> > >
> > > As to the money - we are too cheap on our
> > schools
> > > but that is not the kids fault. My 12 year
> old
> > > now gets up at NIGHT to go to school. Why?
> > Which
> > > scientific evidence is there this is good for
> > > learning. I know there is a lot of evidence
> > this
> > > is very bad for learning and health. Those
> are
> > > the facts.
> > >
> > > Saying 'they will just stay up later' is not
> > fact
> > > is a statement of speculation. Kids getting
> up
> > at
> > > night to attend school is a failure of the
> > > grown-ups.
> > >
> > > You get an A for effort and a C- for content.
> >
> >
> > Well, in fairness, the opposite argument is
> mere
> > speculation too. If you are going to argue that
> I
> > can't prove that kids won't stay up later,
> fine,
> > but you can't make the counter argument for the
> > same reason. Based on evidence that I have
> > garnered via talking to kids and parents, it is
> my
> > belief that they WILL stay up later.
> > You also say that "going to bed early is just
> not
> > what they [teens] are designed to do". Okay, so
> > how exactly does that help your argument? They
> > aren't designed to go to bed early, but that in
> no
> > way means they will go to bed at the same time
> > that they are now if they are afforded the
> > opportunity to get to school later. And, by the
> > way, I believe it's the way that it has been
> done
> > for about a hundred or more years in this
> country,
> > and it seems to have worked pretty well up to
> this
> > point when helicopter parents, who are likely
> to
> > shut down the chopper before their kids hit the
> > sack, pushed their agenda forward.And, by the
> way
> > asking a kid to go to bed early isn't violating
> > some biological imperative. Perhaps it would be
> > more difficult, but it's not like forcing a
> human
> > to exist without sustenance.
> > FInally, we agree on the money aspect, but
> > scientific evidence about what is good for
> > learning changes constantly. The New York Times
> > just recently ran an article about how physical
> > education and activity prime the body for
> academic
> > success, but what has happened to PE?
> Helicopter
> > parents have taken the competition out of it so
> > less athletic kids don't get their feelings
> hurt,
> > and it has become a waste of time. Furthermore,
> we
> > have known for years that the current method of
> > schooling, sitting for prolonged periods and
> being
> > attentive, favors girls, yet we don't change
> it.
> > Educational data fluctuates constantly and
> evolves
> > with technology, cultural assimilation, etc.
> For
> > once, it would be nice to hear something that
> > favors teachers without what favors the kids as
> > kids learn in myriad different ways and nearly
> all
> > teachers are cash strapped.
> >
> > So, I feel you got an A for effort but a D at
> best
> > for content!
>
> What a senseless rant. I would lower your grade
> to an F but I know this is a troll - no teacher
> would present such a poor retort. By poor I mean
> strawman bs, 'working for over a hundred years'
> (all the way back to the good old days before
> child labor laws), some blathering about
> helicopter parents and athletics. You make the
> argument about the system working just fine for a
> hundred years in one breath then 'Educational data
> fluctuates constantly and evolves with
> technology'
>
> weird


Well , you are at an F . I shot your ridiculous argument full of holes and you know it. Go worry about your twelve year old who gets up in the morning despite your ludicrous argument. Something tells me that if you bully your way into TJ you'll get that monster to be of yours up just fine in the morning.

^ yeesh, I truly hope you are not actually a teacher. The post you rail against inferred some arguments but stated only the fact that data suggest teens stay up later because of their physiology (that is true). So there really was no 'argument' to 'shoot holes' in. Your writing is fairly incoherent but it seems you stated early start times as being 'how its been done for about a hundred years in this country' no that is not true:

While there are no systematic national databases of school
start times, historical and media sources suggest that school districts in the U.S. began advancing
school start times, especially at the high school level, first in the late 1950’s and 1960’s and then increasingly so during the 1970’s. *

For example, Loudon County, Virginia
has had the same bell schedule since 1954, with high schools starting at 9:00 am, middle schools at
8:30 am and elementary schools at 7:50 am.

You then posit some opinions about something about 'helicopter parents,' a NY Times article about physical activity and learning, the fact that 'the system favors girls over boys,' cultural assimilation. All interesting topics but you link none of them. My favorite is in this passionate diatribe concerning what is best for kids, you close with something that sounds like its right out of the mouth of a 10 year old: 'For once, it would be nice to hear something that favors teachers without what favors the kids as kids learn in myriad different ways and nearly all
teachers are cash strapped.' So in essence you are pissed that the County is spending 5 million dollars on transportation and funds for teachers continues to be cut. Fine. Its a good point. The rest is garbage.


* source http://www.fcps.edu/supt/update/1415/Blueprint-Change-School-Start-Time-Change-ReportFinal4-14-14.pdf

CmdHe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^ yeesh, I truly hope you are not actually a
> teacher. The post you rail against
> inferred some arguments but stated only the
> fact that data suggest teens stay up later because
> of their physiology (that is true). So there
> really was no 'argument' to 'shoot holes' in.
> Your writing is fairly incoherent but it seems you
> stated early start times as being 'how its been
> done for about a hundred years in this country' no
> that is not true:
>
> While there are no systematic national
> databases of school
> start times, historical and media sources suggest
> that school districts in the U.S. began advancing
>
> school start times, especially at the high school
> level, first in the late 1950’s and 1960’s and
> then increasingly so during the 1970’s. *
>
> For example, Loudon County, Virginia
> has had the same bell schedule since 1954, with
> high schools starting at 9:00 am, middle schools
> at
> 8:30 am and elementary schools at 7:50 am.
>
> You then posit some opinions about something about
> 'helicopter parents,' a NY Times article about
> physical activity and learning, the fact that 'the
> system favors girls over boys,' cultural
> assimilation. All interesting topics but you link
> none of them. My favorite is in this passionate
> diatribe concerning what is best for kids, you
> close with something that sounds like its right
> out of the mouth of a 10 year old: 'For once,
> it would be nice to hear something that favors
> teachers without what favors the kids as kids
> learn in myriad different ways and nearly all
> teachers are cash strapped.' So in essence
> you are pissed that the County is spending 5
> million dollars on transportation and funds for
> teachers continues to be cut. Fine. Its a good
> point. The rest is garbage.
>
>
> * source
> http://www.fcps.edu/supt/update/1415/Blueprint-Cha
> nge-School-Start-Time-Change-ReportFinal4-14-14.pd
> f


You're the troll. You cite one source for one county, I wasn't making the statement in microcosm. Let's just end it here: my point was that educational policies fluctuate and are often, within educational jargon, equated to a pendulum. Your point(s) is/are...well, I don't know. In fact, I don't even know if you are the person that I have been debating with all along or not. In the end, it seems we both agree that teachers are underpaid no matter what syllogism we use to arrive at the conclusion, which is fine with me

Not to nit pick but:

1. the title of the source was School Start Time Change: An In-Depth Examination of
School Districts in the United States - it cites counties all over the country

2. You call me a troll for only citing one source vs. nothing cited by you - zero. So if Im a troll for citing one scientific paper what are you for citing nothing?

3. I do value education and I do value teachers and yes, compared to surrounding counties Fairfax County is not keeping up with teacher pay. That is not fine with me. Teachers should at the very least get annual cost of living increases and we should not be slashing teaching positions and increasing the class sizes.

The report is worth reading for those interested in school start times. Its got neat stuff like 'science' instead of each single person's anecdotal observations and opinions (often based on false ideas like 'this is how its been done for 100 years...'). Pages 32-38 have a summary of the history of the US Public School System, start times and sleep research milestones.

http://www.fcps.edu/supt/update/1415/Blueprint-Change-School-Start-Time-Change-ReportFinal4-14-14.pdf

Sigh:

1. I said 'this is how its been done for 100 years...", you answered with a quotation which starts with "While there are no systematic national
databases of school start times..." meaning you cannot disprove my argument.

2. I said " Many parents go to sleep before their kids and don't make them go to bed anyway. So, since the kids know they can sleep later, they will simply stay up later netting them no more sleep at all. If you ask kids, chances are that they will tell you as much". Notice, I said "many" not "all" or even "most" parents, I did say they WILL stay up later , which I admit I cannot universally prove, but then I did say "chances are they will tell you as much" which is not an absolute statement. Your counter was "Your argument is really just your opinion though. You have no data on how many kids would stay up later with later start times. I do know there is plenty of data showing the physiology of teens and the fact that going to bed early is just not whatthey are designed to do. Check the science". So, your use your opinion to try to discredit my opinion, and then introduce the non sequitor that teens are not "designed" to go to bed early, which, honestly, seems to support MY premise that they WOULD stay up later if they knew they could get up later.

3. You say that your kid gets up at night, which may be true depending on who is defining "morning". It can be either from sunrise to noon or from midnight to noon. I would be inclined to say that most people would define 5 am (which I believe you quoted as your child's "wake up" time) as morning, albeit very early morning.

4. According to the Mayo Clinic:
Most teens need about nine hours of sleep a night — and sometimes more — to maintain optimal daytime alertness. But few teens actually get that much sleep regularly, thanks to factors such as part-time jobs, early-morning classes, homework, extracurricular activities, social demands, and use of computers and other electronic gadgets. (http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/tween-and-teen-health/in-depth/teens-health/art-20046157?pg=1)

They also say :
Teens are notorious for wanting to stay up late and for not wanting to get up early

I chose Mayo because I assume they are unbiased and simply reporting medical fact. So, Mayo does say that teens like to stay up late by nature as you stated. They also say that early morning classes may contribute to a teen getting less than the optimal nine hours of sleep per night. However, it does NOT logically follow that moving start time back will cause teens to get the optimal nine hours.

I believe that the homework, extra-curricular activities, and part time jobs will simply start and end later, meaning that teens will meet their social demands later, and that they will play with their gadgets later, resulting in no more sleep. You seem to disagree. My evidence, though anecdotal, does come from twenty years of working with kids. That's all.

Are we still going on about this FCPS boondoggle? They must have come up with something else costly, with a negative impact on education, since school started.

What does it matter what time they show up, 30+ kids in a classroom, to get handed SOL practice worksheets to sit quietly and be bored off their asses?

FCPS is a faint shadow of its former self, and the main discussion focuses on whether the kids will get up very, very early or very early.

It still seems like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to me.