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FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: December 19, 2008 11:39AM

Dear FAIRGRADE Supporter,


Since Thanksgiving, the FAIRGRADE leadership team has dedicated over 60 hours editing FCPS drafts and submitting our suggestions to FCPS administrators for inclusion in the final report about the FCPS Grading Policy. In our comments, FAIRGRADE repeatedly asked FCPS to clearly identify the negative impacts of the current policies, as demonstrated by the data.


Because FAIRGRADE was sufficiently troubled by the December 12th FCPS draft we were shown, we asked FCPS to remove the names of FAIRGRADE's leadership team from the FCPS report. We do not know the extent to which FCPS subsequently changed its draft report, because FCPS will not provide FAIRGRADE with a copy of the draft report sent to Superintendent Dale earlier this week. (We have been told the report will become publicly available online at www.fcps.edu on January 2, 2009.) Thus, FAIRGRADE’s comments are based on the December 12th FCPS draft report.


Despite FAIRGRADE’s concerns that the December 12th FCPS draft report UNDERSTATES the magnitude of the negative impacts of FCPS grading policies, we believe that the research gathered over the last eight months overwhelmingly supports FAIRGRADE’s original findings that:


1. The existing FCPS grading policy disadvantages students for admissions, merit scholarships and honors program placement,


2. FCPS provides less weights for advanced courses than most comparable school districts,


3. A majority of colleges surveyed do not recalculate GPAs,


4. Nationwide, high school grading policies are trending towards the use of a 10-point scale with pluses, minuses and extra weighting for advanced courses, and


5. It still remains to be seen what evidence supports current FCPS grading policy.


FAIRGRADE will issue its own Executive Summary of the research findings for the School Board’s consideration in early January. We will also post on our website the data, analyses and background research literature requested by FAIRGRADE, but not included by FCPS in its final report.


According to FCPS officials, the January 8th regular School Board meeting agenda will include the grading policy issue, and the public can sign up in advance to speak about the FCPS report and the FCPS grading policy. On January 12th, Superintendent Dale is expected to present his recommendations at the School Board work session where the public may observe the proceedings, but may not comment. And it’s possible that the School Board could vote on Dale’s recommendation(s) at the January 22nd Regular School Board Meeting. Because this is a regular meeting, the public may sign up to speak and address the Board.


Your support during the first three weeks in January is critical. While extensive research demonstrates the need for changing to a 10-point grading scale (with pluses and minuses) and increasing the weights for honors and AP/IB courses, SCHOOL OFFICIALS APPEAR UNCONVINCED.


The two most effective things you can do are to attend the three January School Board meetings (Jan. 8th, 12th & 22nd), and email Superintendent Dale, your individual School Board Member and all three Members-at-Large for the School Board.


SCHOOL OFFICIALS NEED TO HEAR YOUR CONCERNS AND YOUR EXPECTATIONS FOR CHANGE. If you have personal experiences about lost opportunities for admissions, scholarships or honors program placements, please email FCPS officials and/or sign up to speak at the regular School Board meetings and tell Board Members your story. (Go to http://www.fcps.edu/schlbd/requestspeak.htm) Your personal testimony may be the single most important factor in persuading the School Board. Don’t leave action to others. Please get involved and convey your personal story of lost opportunity.(Please send a copy of your story to: fairgrade.anecdote@gmail.com.)


Finally, we remain closely engaged with our Business Alliance for FAIRGRADE team, receiving advice on a daily basis. The Business Alliance for FAIRGRADE will also be launching some additional lobbying efforts of their own and we'll keep you informed of these activities as they unfold.


Sincerely,



FAIRGRADE

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: nice ()
Date: December 19, 2008 12:02PM

They should definitely change it. I could've gotten into so many better schools, I was a victim of recieving grades such as a 91 or 92 and would only recieve a B. It's about time they start changing it.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: December 19, 2008 12:24PM

my kids aren't in high school yet, but clearly a kid with a 4.0 from MoCo is going to get the scholarship or admission slot over a kid from FFX with a 3.75....if they're both a 3.75, I'm sure the FFX kid gets the nod based on grading system.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Eastsider ()
Date: December 19, 2008 12:28PM

Fairgrade, if you're going to change the system, you might as well go a step further.

For each course, the report card should list the student's final average (0-100), the mean final average for all students enrolled in the course, and the standard deviation.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: College Student ()
Date: December 19, 2008 12:32PM

I am a former student of FCPS and currently a junior at a university. I had no problem what so ever with the current grading policy in place for FCPS. To be honest, high school was an absolute joke. A lot of my peers comment on how ridiculously easy high school was and i have to agree.

If you can't get an "A" in a public high school setting than you surely are not capable of receiving an A in a higher education setting. The curriculum in high school is not as extensive as a universities because it must accommodate for the "slower" students. If you can't get an "A" in this slower paced environment, than i doubt you will do any better in college. In a college or university you are in an environment of your peers, with the same intellectual skill sets as you do. Unless you go to Radford, there is no such thing as a "watered down education" such as the ones in FCPS.

From my experience the only time i did not get an "A" in FCPS was when i just didn't try. And THAT is a reflection of my own personal motivation, not the grading policy enforced. SO instead of wasting all your time and energy complaining, why not get on your son/daughter to start trying for once. If they can't get good grades in a "watered down educational environment" then they will never make it into a higher learning environment, plain and simple.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: December 19, 2008 04:11PM

meanwhile...back on earth...


the point here is to create a level playing field with kids from similar counties to ensure equal opportunity for addmission/scholarships/etc for Fairfax kids.

I can't see a FFX kid with a 3.8 getting the scholarship or admissions slot over a MoCo kid with a 4.0, i.e. FFX kid is being penalized.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student ()
Date: December 19, 2008 05:02PM

It's not FCPS fault your child is mediocre.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Eastsider ()
Date: December 19, 2008 05:12PM

Let's just eliminate the grades of C, D, and F. That should give our kids a distinct advantage over those in other counties.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: December 19, 2008 05:46PM

Eastsider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's just eliminate the grades of C, D, and F.
> That should give our kids a distinct advantage
> over those in other counties.
Attachments:
i lold 2.jpg

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: December 19, 2008 05:53PM

college student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not FCPS fault your child is mediocre.




actually, at 8 years old he can grasp the distinction between the need to
create a more rigorous program in the public schools and the need to ensure a level playing field amongst school systems

luckily for those unable, a less rigorous program has existed in the past.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: College Student ()
Date: December 19, 2008 06:36PM

I understand that you want to ensure a level playing field amongst school systems, but this is not the way to go about it.

Do you really think counties, (i.e., Prince George's, Arlington, ect.) can even compare to that of Fairfax county? Can you honestly say that Arlington and PG county have the same amount of funding and quality of teachers as fairfax county?

Take a step back and look it from the other end of the spectrum. You are here complaining about a level playing field for your child who in enrolled in FCPS. What about the child in the Arlington/PG system? It seems like he/she should be the one complaining about having a level playing field with Fairfax County.

Do you think its possible that the reason why the FCPS grading scale is higher is because we have the resources, and student demographics (most are middle class) to ask more of our students?

Maybe you should do some research and look at graduation rates for Fairfax County vs. PG/Arlington counties and see who has more graduates. I am certain you will find that Fairfax county graduation rates are much higher than the latter.

Crazy, huh? Fairfax county is so unfair because of its higher grading policy, yet we graduate more students than other surrounding counties.

Since you seem like such a proponent for an equal playing field for all students, why don't you go to PG/Arlington county and help those kids get the funding they need for textbooks and teaching resources? HEY, maybe just one day they will be on the same level of fairfax county.

I understand that you want whats fair for your child. But you have to look at the larger picture. Your child is given more tools to be successful in school than other counties and the grading policy reflects that. The quality of education elsewhere cannot even compare, therefore a 90% is an acceptable level for an "A."
And a 93 IS an acceptable "A" level for a child in FCPS because we have the resources, programs (many counties don't offer after school programs), and teachers to do so.

If you still feel the same way after this, maybe you should move your child to arlington county or PG county. You will have your new grading policy, and i'm sure he/she will get the "Quality" education you are looking for.

Cheers.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: yeay ()
Date: December 19, 2008 06:52PM

College Student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand that you want to ensure a level
> playing field amongst school systems, but this is
> not the way to go about it.
>
> Do you really think counties, (i.e., Prince
> George's, Arlington, ect.) can even compare to
> that of Fairfax county? Can you honestly say that
> Arlington and PG county have the same amount of
> funding and quality of teachers as fairfax county?
>
>
> Take a step back and look it from the other end of
> the spectrum. You are here complaining about a
> level playing field for your child who in enrolled
> in FCPS. What about the child in the Arlington/PG
> system? It seems like he/she should be the one
> complaining about having a level playing field
> with Fairfax County.
>
> Do you think its possible that the reason why the
> FCPS grading scale is higher is because we have
> the resources, and student demographics (most are
> middle class) to ask more of our students?
>
> Maybe you should do some research and look at
> graduation rates for Fairfax County vs.
> PG/Arlington counties and see who has more
> graduates. I am certain you will find that Fairfax
> county graduation rates are much higher than the
> latter.
>
> Crazy, huh? Fairfax county is so unfair because of
> its higher grading policy, yet we graduate more
> students than other surrounding counties.
>
> Since you seem like such a proponent for an equal
> playing field for all students, why don't you go
> to PG/Arlington county and help those kids get the
> funding they need for textbooks and teaching
> resources? HEY, maybe just one day they will be on
> the same level of fairfax county.
>
> I understand that you want whats fair for your
> child. But you have to look at the larger picture.
> Your child is given more tools to be successful in
> school than other counties and the grading policy
> reflects that. The quality of education elsewhere
> cannot even compare, therefore a 90% is an
> acceptable level for an "A."
> And a 93 IS an acceptable "A" level for a child in
> FCPS because we have the resources, programs (many
> counties don't offer after school programs), and
> teachers to do so.
>
> If you still feel the same way after this, maybe
> you should move your child to arlington county or
> PG county. You will have your new grading policy,
> and i'm sure he/she will get the "Quality"
> education you are looking for.
>
> Cheers.

Doesn't matter. it should be uniform

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: loudoun ()
Date: December 19, 2008 07:13PM

I graduated from LCPS, their grading scale is a lot harder than Fairfax. FCPS is a joke.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: formerhick76 ()
Date: December 19, 2008 07:37PM

Actually Arlington is better-funded than Fairfax.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: December 19, 2008 07:40PM

Dear Loudoun

You are wrong. Loudoun has a 7 point scale and FCPS has a 6 point scale.

I just don't understand how this change could be viewed negatively by anyone. Just go to the Fairgrades website and look at their research. The six point grading scale is terribly unfair. One question, do any of the members of the school board have school-aged kids?

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: why penalize sucess? ()
Date: December 19, 2008 08:09PM

College Student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Take a step back and look it from the other end of
> the spectrum. You are here complaining about a
> level playing field for your child who in enrolled
> in FCPS. What about the child in the Arlington/PG
> system? It seems like he/she should be the one
> complaining about having a level playing field
> with Fairfax County.
>
> Do you think its possible that the reason why the
> FCPS grading scale is higher is because we have
> the resources, and student demographics (most are
> middle class) to ask more of our students?
>
...

> Cheers.

This argument makes no sense. FFX is successful because it has a hard working, high graduate population and has a sustained focus on education - why should it students be penalized for that.

If FFX parents decide to invest more heavily in education both in schools and outside, and in both taxes and time, then they should not expect to have to have the performance 'marked down' because they and their children have worked hard from the get-go.

That applies both to the grading system and to the quota system for the Rural Virginia counties at state universities

FCPS students have to work even harder to get into the colleges that FFX overwhelmingly pays for just because they already work harder. Great message - invest, work harder and be penalized for it.

Standardize the grading system and get rid of the quota system that makes it harder for our kids to get into the colleges that we've paid for with our taxes.

Absolutely ask the most possible of our students - but that should be reflected in the scores. We cannot expect admission tutors to back out our self flagellation.

I should have realized that I could just lie back, skip the traffic and look at the mountains while the kids got higher grades and an easier route to state colleges.

The real world is not a charity.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 20, 2008 06:27AM

why penalize sucess? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> College Student Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Take a step back and look it from the other end
> of
> > the spectrum. You are here complaining about a
> > level playing field for your child who in
> enrolled
> > in FCPS. What about the child in the
> Arlington/PG
> > system? It seems like he/she should be the one
> > complaining about having a level playing field
> > with Fairfax County.
> >
> > Do you think its possible that the reason why
> the
> > FCPS grading scale is higher is because we have
> > the resources, and student demographics (most
> are
> > middle class) to ask more of our students?
> >
> ...
>
> > Cheers.
>
> This argument makes no sense. FFX is successful
> because it has a hard working, high graduate
> population and has a sustained focus on education
> - why should it students be penalized for that.
>
> If FFX parents decide to invest more heavily in
> education both in schools and outside, and in
> both taxes and time, then they should not expect
> to have to have the performance 'marked down'
> because they and their children have worked hard
> from the get-go.
>
> That applies both to the grading system and to the
> quota system for the Rural Virginia counties at
> state universities
>
> FCPS students have to work even harder to get into
> the colleges that FFX overwhelmingly pays for just
> because they already work harder. Great message -
> invest, work harder and be penalized for it.
>
> Standardize the grading system and get rid of the
> quota system that makes it harder for our kids to
> get into the colleges that we've paid for with our
> taxes.
>
> Absolutely ask the most possible of our students -
> but that should be reflected in the scores. We
> cannot expect admission tutors to back out our
> self flagellation.
>
> I should have realized that I could just lie back,
> skip the traffic and look at the mountains while
> the kids got higher grades and an easier route to
> state colleges.
>
> The real world is not a charity.

I believe other nearby counties have the same (or a point difference) scale, including Prince William, Fauquier and I think Arlington as well. MoCo is the one Fairgrade is wanting the level playing field with. (perhaps this is due to the similar affluence?) My question though is. the FCPS grading scale has been this way for what, 30 years? And just now people are complaining? Were all of those previous graduates harmed?

I would like to see actual stories of people harmed...and stories were the student who didn't receive a scholarship due to the grading scale, went back explained the grading scale and the admissions/scholarship office said, "oh, you have this scale? We will re-calculate..wow..you do receive a scholarship!" Until things like that are cited, it doesn't seem to be affecting anyone. It seems colleges do look at scales, as they deal with schools across the nation.

Clearly UVA, Tech and the other VA universities must be well versed with FCPS's scale. And, if kids are applying out of state, they will be applying with students from other systems that also use the FCPS scale. (and Fairgrade only looking at 45 "gold schools" from the Newsweek list is damaging in my opinion, were all the others not on Fairgrades survey using the 6 point scale??)

Did this whole thing start because a MoCo parent and a FCPS parent were comparing their kids' stats? There will always be perceived inequity in admissions and even in scholarships.

I think Fairgrade would have more to stand on if there wasn't such a long history with the grading scale, and if all the other nearby districts were also using the 10 point scale that MoCo uses.

In addition, collegestudent has a very good point. Level playing field also means quality teaching and that the courses are equal. Anyone recall that poor DC student profiled in a recent Wash Post article who took an AP math course (forget which one) in her DC high school only to get to college and realize she was barely taught Algebra (exaggeration, but the point was she was in an AP class in name only)? To me a level playing field is at least attempting to prepare all college bound students in the same manner.

There are FCPS high schools where it is easier to get an A, than other high schools. Until grading is the "same" it doesn't matter the scale, as inequities will naturally exist even within the same school system. Parents constantly complain that kids with their same kids "stats" get into a school their child didn't. Or, lower stats...and this is within FCPS, so clearly the grading scale had nothing to do with it. Some kids with similar stats get full rides, and other's don't, and again within the same system, and with similar stats.

This notion that because a student applied they should get in, and get a scholarship, because they are so "hard working" and "academically gifted" when the universities are overwhelmed with similar candidates, is rather silly. It is a competitive world out there, and while I understand the notion that it "isn't fair", the past 30 years would surely have borne out more evidence if universities really didn't understand that FCPS uses a 6 point scale.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:02AM

Again, I disagree. The college age population increased in the 2000s (and may have peaked), but this has made acceptance at a college much more competitive. If you want to talk scholarship money, your transcript better have a 3.5 or it goes in the circular file. History is not an accurate predictor for this issue.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:15AM

oaktonmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, I disagree. The college age population
> increased in the 2000s (and may have peaked), but
> this has made acceptance at a college much more
> competitive. If you want to talk scholarship
> money, your transcript better have a 3.5 or it
> goes in the circular file. History is not an
> accurate predictor for this issue.

Okay, it is more competitive now..but, why doesn't Fairgrade.org show at least anecdotal evidence on the website? They ask for stories for the media etc., but they don't show actual cases that would demonstrate evidence that over the past, what 5-10 years, FCPS students have had demonstrated discrimination for scholarships. It would be much more compelling if they had numerous stories from students/parents about what actually happened to them, and what they did about it. You need actual stories. What about grade inflation across all school districts in the nation..there is research showing that grade inflation has taken place during the same timeframe (2000 - 2008), maybe that is why anything below a 3.5 is tossed when it comes to scholarships?

Why did they cherry pick the 45 schools across the nation? Why don't they discuss neighboring districts that use the 6 or 7 point scale, and only focus on MoCo?

If history isn't an accurate predictor, what is?

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: why penalize sucess? ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:25AM

college student has a valid point Wrote:

>
> In addition, collegestudent has a very good point.
> Level playing field also means quality teaching
> and that the courses are equal. Anyone recall
> that poor DC student profiled in a recent Wash
> Post article who took an AP math course (forget
> which one) in her DC high school only to get to
> college and realize she was barely taught Algebra
> (exaggeration, but the point was she was in an AP
> class in name only)? To me a level playing field
> is at least attempting to prepare all college
> bound students in the same manner.
>

Which is why we don't live in DC.

We all agree that the overall standard of US high school education is not upto the job and DC is probably the worst example.

The issue is whether, when a county and its parents really strive to build a world class stretching academic program, it should put structural limits in place which limit its kids ability to have the achievement of the kids properly appreciated by colleges and scholarship bodies - and whether it should accept policies at the state level that are biased against its kids in favor of other communities that have not made that investment of time and money,

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:28AM

why penalize sucess? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> college student has a valid point Wrote:
>
> >
> > In addition, collegestudent has a very good
> point.
> > Level playing field also means quality
> teaching
> > and that the courses are equal. Anyone recall
> > that poor DC student profiled in a recent Wash
> > Post article who took an AP math course (forget
> > which one) in her DC high school only to get to
> > college and realize she was barely taught
> Algebra
> > (exaggeration, but the point was she was in an
> AP
> > class in name only)? To me a level playing
> field
> > is at least attempting to prepare all college
> > bound students in the same manner.
> >
>
> Which is why we don't live in DC.
>
> We all agree that the overall standard of US high
> school education is not upto the job and DC is
> probably the worst example.
>
> The issue is whether, when a county and its
> parents really strive to build a world class
> stretching academic program, it should put
> structural limits in place which limit its kids
> ability to have the achievement of the kids
> properly appreciated by colleges and scholarship
> bodies - and whether it should accept policies at
> the state level that are biased against its kids
> in favor of other communities that have not made
> that investment of time and money,


The so called structural limits have been in place for 30 years. Prince William, Arlington and other No.Va districts use very similar scales (6 or 7 point). These districts spend equal or more money per student...so the investment is there as well.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: why penalize sucess? ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:34AM

college student has a valid point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> school districts in the nation..there is research
> showing that grade inflation has taken place
> during the same timeframe (2000 - 2008), maybe
> that is why anything below a 3.5 is tossed when it
> comes to scholarships?
>
>
> If history isn't an accurate predictor, what is?

Even if grade inflation isn't ffx's fault - you have to live in the world as you find it.

We're a typical ffx family - we both work hard, we've both always worked hard, we've both studied hard - we make sure that the kids study hard and we're involved in their education and development. We make sacrifices for that to happen. We work longer harder jobs to afford to live somewhere with a school system we can work with and pay high taxes to make sure its well funded,

Given the rate of increase in tuition costs, why should we support policies that make it harder for our kids to get in to good schools or to get scholarships which mean we that might eventually be able to retire?

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:51AM

why penalize sucess? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> college student has a valid point Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > school districts in the nation..there is
> research
> > showing that grade inflation has taken place
> > during the same timeframe (2000 - 2008), maybe
> > that is why anything below a 3.5 is tossed when
> it
> > comes to scholarships?
> >
> >
> > If history isn't an accurate predictor, what
> is?
>
> Even if grade inflation isn't ffx's fault - you
> have to live in the world as you find it.
>
> We're a typical ffx family - we both work hard,
> we've both always worked hard, we've both studied
> hard - we make sure that the kids study hard and
> we're involved in their education and development.
> We make sacrifices for that to happen. We work
> longer harder jobs to afford to live somewhere
> with a school system we can work with and pay high
> taxes to make sure its well funded,
>
> Given the rate of increase in tuition costs, why
> should we support policies that make it harder for
> our kids to get in to good schools or to get
> scholarships which mean we that might eventually
> be able to retire?

My family and I are no different than yours. And, you are right, you have to live in world as you find it. If monies are tight, and scholarships are necessary, and if your kid doesn't have that magical 3.5 or above, than you need to look at schools that offer scholarships for 3.0 or above. Or you need to personally follow up with the school your kid is interested in, to make sure they understand the FCPS scale and calculate your kid's GPA correctly.

Changing FCPS's scale won't decrease the competition. Have you ever gone on collegeconfidential.com? Do you see how many kids are applying to topnotch schools who are worried with their high GPAs and perfect SATs that they aren't competitive enough? The issue is the number of kids born in early 90's who are excellent students now. It is simply tough now. Rather than trying to make a system wide change, that at this point in my opinion has issues that aren't being addressed (many neighboring districts with similar scales, no anecdotal stories posted, lack of distinguishing grade inflation, population increase, and more students in general applying to college than in years past..not just numbers but percentage of high school grads going to college, from the issue of the scale) focus on your kid being realistic on where they are applying. If Harvard won't get you the scholarship needed, look at schools that will. Once you are in an undergrad program, your GPA will be "comparable" to other undergrad programs, and you can prove yourself at the graduate school level..if you truly think there is current discrimination. (I am just using Harvard as an example, you can substitute whatever selective school you deem relevant).

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: December 20, 2008 09:09AM

college student has a valid point ... do you have kids currently in the system that this affects? If you did, would your outlook change? Be honest. How petty that former FCPS parents/students are rallying against this.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: and... ()
Date: December 20, 2008 09:14AM

I think the entire issue with FCPS is stupid. Go to a 10 point scale and have LESS opportunities for subjective grading. There are retests at TJ. Remove "tissue box " points which even exist in middle school. No retests, standard rubrics around the county. Remove the extra work and hoops teachers jump through to get some A's on the books and many will end up right where they are now with GPA's. Less work for teachers. There was a letter to the editor from a teacher on this issue in The Connection.

With all the crap people get from FCPS this is the least it can do for people stuck with kids in this school system. The school board and Dale are planning to really stick it to most people here including those without kids in the schools. They would rather keep their earmarks - waste more money - while ruining the baseline of quality education.

Fire Dale and the Leadrship Team. get rid of the current school board members. Every last one of them. Hone is loud and plays off her race without fully examining issues, programs, efficacy, and funding. Raney and his "business case" stuff couldn't find Soth Lakes for some at Langley. Phil likes to bus walkers to justify his new Providence district gatehouse.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 20, 2008 09:18AM

oaktonmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> college student has a valid point ... do you have
> kids currently in the system that this affects?
> If you did, would your outlook change? Be honest.
> How petty that former FCPS parents/students are
> rallying against this.

I wouldn't be posting if I weren't currently involved.
I have two high school students, one a senior currently applying to schools, and one a junior. I have a very good friend who is a member of Fairgrade. She and I have had numerous discussions about this. She did have one example of a member of Fairgrade whose student didn't get a scholarship..and then they pursued it directly with the university.

Based on my son's two acceptances (hasn't heard from the other schools yet) the universities in-state and out -of -state are taking into account the FCPS scale. The merit scholarships he has been offered are what he expected. He was realistic in where he applied...well qualified for selective universities..applied to slightly less selective (but still selective) to take opportunity of scholarships.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: tubby ()
Date: December 20, 2008 12:26PM

Jeez...I can see why the School Board ignores you fucking nuts!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student ()
Date: December 20, 2008 12:33PM

Oakton mom...i find it hysterical that you are calling us petty for rallying against this. We ARE the ones that went to school in this system, we KNOW how it works. Until you have spent 12 years in a system, you have absolutely no right to call our opinions petty.

That is sheer ignorance. You would think that our opinions would carry more weight since we have more experience WITHIN the system. Not some perspective you are receiving through your 8 year old child.

I understand that you are a typical hard working family and i dont argue against that. My parents both have a 6th grade education or lower and i am the first to graduate high school. You would think we should be the ones complaining, wouldn't you? But since you are just a "typical ffx county mom," your opinion is no better than the other thousands of parents in the county. You seem to be so gung-ho about this but you seems to be completely ignoring the opinions of those who count, current and former students. And by current students i mean competent, no matter how smart your 8 year old is, he is not going to give you a realistic perspective on the system.

If you have two people who have a considerable amount of experience in the system it would be wise to TRY to listen with an open ear.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: December 20, 2008 12:56PM

Guess what my college student friend - I spent 12 years in the FCPS system (actually 13 w/ kindergarten) so I do have a right to call your opinions petty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: pettycollegiate ()
Date: December 20, 2008 01:02PM

college student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton mom...i find it hysterical that you are
> calling us petty for rallying against this. We ARE
> the ones that went to school in this system, we
> KNOW how it works. Until you have spent 12 years
> in a system, you have absolutely no right to call
> our opinions petty.
>
> That is sheer ignorance. You would think that our
> opinions would carry more weight since we have
> more experience WITHIN the system. Not some
> perspective you are receiving through your 8 year
> old child.
>
> I understand that you are a typical hard working
> family and i dont argue against that. My parents
> both have a 6th grade education or lower and i am
> the first to graduate high school. You would think
> we should be the ones complaining, wouldn't you?
> But since you are just a "typical ffx county mom,"
> your opinion is no better than the other thousands
> of parents in the county. You seem to be so
> gung-ho about this but you seems to be completely
> ignoring the opinions of those who count, current
> and former students. And by current students i
> mean competent, no matter how smart your 8 year
> old is, he is not going to give you a realistic
> perspective on the system.
>
> If you have two people who have a considerable
> amount of experience in the system it would be
> wise to TRY to listen with an open ear.

Maybe Oakton Mom is a veteran of FCPS. You would be surprised by how many old fart parent graduates of FCPS are now posting here about their kids applying for colleges and what not.. So get off your high horse, know it all. Also, college student dig out your grammar book this winter break. You need to brush up on your skills.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: December 20, 2008 01:28PM

"old fart parents"

ouch

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: reading ()
Date: December 20, 2008 01:57PM

Why are you all arguing back and forth about something that the SB won't change? That's the reason why FAIRGRADE hasn't given a copy of recommendations. Grades are very subjective, and up to the teacher. I don't buy the arguments by college student (is posting)...seems to me that s/he is a parent...not an current student.

I can tell you that Arlington gives extra credit to its students...I should know: my niece was given scholarships based on her GPA at VT, but I bet that if she would have been a product of FCPS, her scholarships wouldn't have been so generous. Yes, there is a BIG inequity among school systems, and it does definitively look better if your GPA is higher. I work at a major university and we look at the higher GPAs and compare students, if one looks better than the other--guess who will be admitted and given preferential treatment? We don't have time to check whether one school system is tougher than the other--too many applications, plus the competition is very fierce as scholarships are concerned.

Fairfax School Board is desilusional about it....we don't have time to read any additional materials: we let the record speaks for itself. Might as well level the field. It is not deluting the system, as some people might think...

I do feel bad for the FCS students...just remember: we have quotas to fill from different schools and we handpick students whether you like it or not.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Awakened ()
Date: December 20, 2008 02:15PM

college student your opinion is petty

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Eastsider ()
Date: December 20, 2008 02:56PM

You are a troll.



reading Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are you all arguing back and forth about
> something that the SB won't change? That's the
> reason why FAIRGRADE hasn't given a copy of
> recommendations. Grades are very subjective, and
> up to the teacher. I don't buy the arguments by
> college student (is posting)...seems to me that
> s/he is a parent...not an current student.
>
> I can tell you that Arlington gives extra credit
> to its students...I should know: my niece was
> given scholarships based on her GPA at VT, but I
> bet that if she would have been a product of FCPS,
> her scholarships wouldn't have been so generous.
> Yes, there is a BIG inequity among school systems,
> and it does definitively look better if your GPA
> is higher. I work at a major university and we
> look at the higher GPAs and compare students, if
> one looks better than the other--guess who will be
> admitted and given preferential treatment? We
> don't have time to check whether one school system
> is tougher than the other--too many applications,
> plus the competition is very fierce as
> scholarships are concerned.
>
> Fairfax School Board is desilusional about
> it....we don't have time to read any additional
> materials: we let the record speaks for itself.
> Might as well level the field. It is not deluting
> the system, as some people might think...
>
> I do feel bad for the FCS students...just
> remember: we have quotas to fill from different
> schools and we handpick students whether you like
> it or not.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student ()
Date: December 20, 2008 03:54PM

hahahahaha you parents are absolutely absurd. I am amused that you think my comments are petty and that you insult my grammar. But the fact is, if your kids were any smart you wouldn't be having this issue in the first place. And guess what? This grading policy will not change. Deal with it. There is nothing you can do. I win, you lose. I have my college education and will eventually have a masters. And your children will go to Community College because they can't deal with FCPS grading policy. How is that for petty? hahahaha hysterical, parents these days.

Bottom line, i think you guys should just deal with it. People have dealt with this grading scale for years, and your children can too. Have a little faith in your children. They can do it! I know they can! How do i know? Because only a million plus students have already done it before them. If they can't, then you have failed them as parents, not the school system.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Travis ()
Date: December 20, 2008 06:58PM

I was once one of these kids who complained about the grading scale. I was getting B+s and thought it was unfair that I was getting B+'s when kids in other counties were getting A's. Then I decided that I should simply start working harder. Now I have straight A's. If your kid doesn't have straight A's then he simply isn't working hard enough. In a high school setting, even a mongoloid could get straight A's if he just turned things in on time.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Awakened ()
Date: December 20, 2008 07:03PM

Travis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was once one of these kids who complained about
> the grading scale. I was getting B+s and thought
> it was unfair that I was getting B+'s when kids in
> other counties were getting A's. Then I decided
> that I should simply start working harder. Now I
> have straight A's. If your kid doesn't have
> straight A's then he simply isn't working hard
> enough. In a high school setting, even a mongoloid
> could get straight A's if he just turned things in
> on time.

Maybe you should get a go-kart.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: December 20, 2008 07:30PM

Yep ... just as I thought. The dissenters are students or parents of students who did quite well and are afraid that their accomplishments will be diluted. Don't worry, they won't. You will still be able to pat yourself on the back with an even higher GPA (if they grant additional points for honors and AP courses). You shouldn't participate in this discussion if your motives are purely selfish.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:36PM

oaktonmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yep ... just as I thought. The dissenters are
> students or parents of students who did quite well
> and are afraid that their accomplishments will be
> diluted. Don't worry, they won't. You will still
> be able to pat yourself on the back with an even
> higher GPA (if they grant additional points for
> honors and AP courses). You shouldn't participate
> in this discussion if your motives are purely
> selfish.

What on earth are you basing this statement on???

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: stupent ()
Date: December 20, 2008 08:45PM

college student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hahahahaha you parents are absolutely absurd. I am
> amused that you think my comments are petty and
> that you insult my grammar. But the fact is, if
> your kids were any smart you wouldn't be having
> this issue in the first place. And guess what?
> This grading policy will not change. Deal with it.
> There is nothing you can do. I win, you lose. I
> have my college education and will eventually have
> a masters. And your children will go to Community
> College because they can't deal with FCPS grading
> policy. How is that for petty? hahahaha
> hysterical, parents these days.
>
> Bottom line, i think you guys should just deal
> with it. People have dealt with this grading scale
> for years, and your children can too. Have a
> little faith in your children. They can do it! I
> know they can! How do i know? Because only a
> million plus students have already done it before
> them. If they can't, then you have failed them as
> parents, not the school system.

Thank goodness my kids aren't your kind of smart, because YOU cannot even construct an adequate sentence. College student? from where? and for how long? Hope you enjoy it because you are bound to be there for a long time. No one in their right mind would hire an illiterate pompASS such as yourself.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Please explain ()
Date: December 21, 2008 02:29AM

Changing the grading scale would benefit FCPS students when they apply to colleges across the country. So what is the School board and staff objection to changing it? If it helps kids, why won't they just do it?

Thank you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student ()
Date: December 21, 2008 03:54AM

I am in no way, shape, or form worried about my accomplishments being diluted. Corporations could care less about HS GPA and what you accomplished in HS. They look for what college/university you went to and the GPA you received there. And doing well in HS is not an accomplishment.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: College Student ()
Date: December 21, 2008 04:03AM

stupent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> college student Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Thank goodness my kids aren't your kind of smart,
> because YOU cannot even construct an adequate
> sentence. College student? from where? and for
> how long? Hope you enjoy it because you are bound
> to be there for a long time. No one in their right
> mind would hire an illiterate pompASS such as
> yourself.

This is a public internet forum, i don't have to partake in any formal writing. If you believe that the way i write on some thread is a reflection of my intelligence then you are a fool.

P.S- I am the kid the ruins the grading curve for everyone else without trying.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: College Student ()
Date: December 21, 2008 04:05AM

Travis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was once one of these kids who complained about
> the grading scale. I was getting B+s and thought
> it was unfair that I was getting B+'s when kids in
> other counties were getting A's. Then I decided
> that I should simply start working harder. Now I
> have straight A's. If your kid doesn't have
> straight A's then he simply isn't working hard
> enough. In a high school setting, even a mongoloid
> could get straight A's if he just turned things in
> on time.

Thank you! Finally someone who has been in the system and tells it as it is. Seems to be a common trend among ACTUAL students of FCPS. Hmmmmm....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 21, 2008 08:17AM

oaktonmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yep ... just as I thought. The dissenters are
> students or parents of students who did quite well
> and are afraid that their accomplishments will be
> diluted. Don't worry, they won't. You will still
> be able to pat yourself on the back with an even
> higher GPA (if they grant additional points for
> honors and AP courses). You shouldn't participate
> in this discussion if your motives are purely
> selfish.


I asked earlier what you were basing the statement on, and just to clarify my question, how do you interpret my (or other dissenters) posts are selfish? Why would you think we would worry about a GPA or accomplishments being diluted if this passes? That doesn't make sense for a number of reasons, number one being if we thought the current GPA accomplishment would be diluted, wouldn't that mean that your child's would also be diluted if the change were to take place? And number 2, who talks about high school gpa's after they have left high school??

But truly, how is giving an opinion on the validity of the need for the change selfish? What benefit would I or my kids get if the scale changed or didn't change? I am merely asking for more "evidence" that harm is taking place than Fairgrade has provided. I am merely saying that kids with GPA's below 3.5 can and do get into good schools and can receive scholarships. I am saying that the competitiveness now is not due to the grading scale but the number of students applying to college, (not only more students in high school, but the percentage of high school graduates going on to college has increased dramatically). Fairgrade, nor anyone on this site, has not proved their case. Saying "history is not an adequate predictor in this case" is a silly argument. Only focusing on MoCo's scale and ignoring the fact that other NoVA school districts use a 6 or 7 point scale truly mutes the argument.

I truly, truly don't care what FCPS does with their scale. It won't affect anything, in my opinion. I simply am saying the argument is weak, and not backed up by evidence. (and please, comparing the Moco scale with a hypothetical student to the FCPS is not evidence...where are the actual kids who have been "affected?") I think there are plenty more issues that could be dealt with in the school system. Inequity within the schools (financially well off PTAs versus less well off, schools with a high percentage of teachers with a masters versus schools with teachers teaching out of field, or with a provisional) colleges charging outrageous tuition, with continued spikes that don't correspond to wages etc.

So, if you feel this is THE issue, go for it. I would suggest though coming up with better arguments than you "care for your kids, work hard, study hard etc" , based on your argument, those in MoCo, care more for their kids ....are you going to move there if FCPS doesn't change their scale???

And berating college student for being a former student, as if that is bad, when you then say you yourself have 12 years of experience with FCPS, I assume as a student, is rather odd. You and I are both parents of students now, and we both care about our kids. We both have a right to state our opinion. Mine is not selfish as I truly feel nothing would change, and no one would benefit. You on the other hand feel things would change, and hence your child would benefit, so you are the one with "selfish" reasons for posting your opinion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student ()
Date: December 21, 2008 12:33PM

Well done.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: December 21, 2008 02:43PM

Looks like I struck a nerve. Obviously any change here will have little impact for your kids ... so why so adamant against it?

I did not berate a college student. I think you meant to address this with "stupent".

My kids aren't even in high school yet so I don't know if they will benefit from a change. I think that Fairgrade has presented a compelling argument. Asking them to "positively prove" their case is not realistic. How do you suggest they do that? My argument is not because I "care for kids, work hard, study hard, etc", again I believe you are addressing another poster. I truly believe it puts FCPS students at a disadvantage. How you even looked at the fairgrade website?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: college student has a valid point ()
Date: December 21, 2008 03:17PM

oaktonmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like I struck a nerve. Obviously any change
> here will have little impact for your kids ... so
> why so adamant against it?
>
> I did not berate a college student. I think you
> meant to address this with "stupent".
>
> My kids aren't even in high school yet so I don't
> know if they will benefit from a change. I think
> that Fairgrade has presented a compelling
> argument. Asking them to "positively prove" their
> case is not realistic. How do you suggest they do
> that? My argument is not because I "care for
> kids, work hard, study hard, etc", again I believe
> you are addressing another poster. I truly
> believe it puts FCPS students at a disadvantage.
> How you even looked at the fairgrade website?


oaktonmom, first I am sorry, I did mix up some of your posts with "why penalize success"s points.

I have indeed looked at their website, and talked with a member. I think they need to post their anecdotal stories..stories from affected students and their parents, those could prove their point better, in my opinion, than what is posted on their site.

I remain unclear on why you think I am selfish when I have expressed my opinion on the issue.

I am adamant because I think they have not made their argument well. I have yet to see why they only focus on Moco and ignore other NoVa districts that use our scale (some use a 7 point instead of a 6). I truly feel that many people expect their students should have been accepted to more selective schools, and blame the scale instead of the fact that there are simply many more students applying to college now. It seems it is much more difficult to get into college these days, and everyone is looking for the answer. I simply don't believe that the scale is the issue. Within each FCPS high school there are numerous qualified students for very few spots..these students all are dealing with the same FCPS scale. Some of these students will get in, and some won't...all with similar GPAs, SAT scores, AP (or IB) classes, and extra currics...it is often the luck of the draw, how early they applied and factors that admissions offices take into account that seem from the outside to be very mysterious.

I do think admissions' offices are well aware of the various high school district's scales..10 point, 7 point, 6 point and those schools that use the 100 point scale (instead of a grade it will read "94" for end of course mark).

I guess I am posting/arguing against it, because I feel there are more pertinent and relevant issues out there. And, perhaps wrongly, I at times feel folks feel their kids "deserve" a certain college, just as some people feel they "deserve" a house, or deserve a huge house, with 5 rooms per family member..you know, it just strikes me as another one of those "I am entitled to it all" kind of arguments.

I simply wish their website had actual stories, not stats designed to demonstrate "scary" scenarios for parents. At this time of year in particular, when kids are applying to schools, and some are hearing about early action/early decisions, and they are all getting freaked out by the odds...adding this to it just makes it worse. Not because it might be true, but because it might not be..and then they will always feel "if only we had the 10 point scale I could've been a contender"

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: KeepOnTruckin ()
Date: December 21, 2008 07:42PM

Fairgrade realizes that some opponents ask where the actual affected students are. Now they are collecting such stories, and expect to present the "anecdotes" at the next school board meeting.

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FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: December 21, 2008 11:35PM

In addition, Fairgrade sent a collection of personal comments and anecdotes from the online petition to members of the School Board, Board of Supervisors, Dale and other FCPS staff a few weeks ago.


KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fairgrade realizes that some opponents ask where
> the actual affected students are. Now they are
> collecting such stories, and expect to present the
> "anecdotes" at the next school board meeting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: College Studen ()
Date: December 21, 2008 11:41PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In addition, Fairgrade sent a collection of
> personal comments and anecdotes from the online
> petition to members of the School Board, Board of
> Supervisors, Dale and other FCPS staff a few weeks
> ago.


My issue with Fairgrades collection of comments and anecdotes is that it will almost certainly be biased. I think an unbiased 3rd party should collect such comments and reveal ALL the comments to the board rather than the comments that support their agenda.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: December 22, 2008 08:58AM

many good points in this thread, but we need to stick to the core issue--
being the impact of the current grading system on external assessment of FCPS students. The vast majority of schools systems nationawide use a 10 point scale.

If you think the FCPS "reputation" will give our kid the nod over a similar kid from a 10 point district with a slightly higher GPA, push to keep the current system. I see value in needing a 94 for the A as it conditions the kids to truly invest the effort to master the subject--or risk a B.

If you think our 3.8 kid is missing out on admissions slots/scholarship $$$ to a 4.0 kid with same or less numeric grades from a 10 point scale system, push for a change.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: December 22, 2008 04:52PM

ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> many good points in this thread, but we need to
> stick to the core issue--
> being the impact of the current grading system on
> external assessment of FCPS students. The vast
> majority of schools systems nationawide use a 10
> point scale.

There are two issues when looking at FCPS's GPAs and those of other systems -

1) The grading Scale is both a bit high and unusual, but realistically, the teachers can, and some do, game this however they like. It'd be interesting to see what the actual difference in the distribution of actual grades is between FCPS and other schools.

2) The addition of points to grades for advanced courses when calculating GPAs. FCPS does not add anything for Honors/PreIB/PreAP, and .5 for AP/IB, most systems add more, some significantly more. This difference is simply ungameable, and, unless GPAs are recalculated by the receiving organization (school, insurance company, scholarships, ...) does directly disadvantage the FCPS students. From a GPA perspective, the lack of extra points for Honors/PreIB/PreAP also disadvantages the FCPS students taking these courses relative to the FCPS students not taking them since their GPAs don't reflect the difference in course difficulty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: December 23, 2008 10:27AM

bump for honors/AP/IB could be an olive branch from FCPS

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Date: December 23, 2008 01:02PM

"FCPS grading policy--school board on notice"


Are you Bill "Fucking" O'Reilly now?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: January 01, 2009 11:07PM

Westfield Dad and ExportYourJobs,

FCPS staff said that on January 2nd, they will post their report on the FCPS web site. This report should include data comparing FCPS grades to non-FCPS grades.

The research I have done on grade distributions indicates that FCPS gives far fewer As than other school districts. Many FCPS teachers give extra credit, etc. to raise students' grades, but it appears that these efforts don't fully mitigate the current FCPS grading scale.

The issue raised by ExportYourJobs on providing kids with an incentive to keep working after they have a 90 could be addressed by using pluses and minuses as part of a 10-point grading scale. If a 90 were an A- and a 93 were an A, some kids would study harder to get the A. If FCPS also had an A+, kids would have an incentive to keep studying even if they had a 96 average.


WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are two issues when looking at FCPS's GPAs
> and those of other systems -
>
> 1) The grading Scale is both a bit high and
> unusual, but realistically, the teachers can, and
> some do, game this however they like. It'd be
> interesting to see what the actual difference in
> the distribution of actual grades is between FCPS
> and other schools.
>
> 2) The addition of points to grades for advanced
> courses when calculating GPAs. FCPS does not add
> anything for Honors/PreIB/PreAP, and .5 for AP/IB,
> most systems add more, some significantly more.
> This difference is simply ungameable, and, unless
> GPAs are recalculated by the receiving
> organization (school, insurance company,
> scholarships, ...) does directly disadvantage the
> FCPS students. From a GPA perspective, the lack
> of extra points for Honors/PreIB/PreAP also
> disadvantages the FCPS students taking these
> courses relative to the FCPS students not taking
> them since their GPAs don't reflect the difference
> in course difficulty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: when ()
Date: January 02, 2009 09:35AM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> FCPS staff said that on January 2nd, they will
> post their report on the FCPS web site. This
> report should include data comparing FCPS grades
> to non-FCPS grades.
>

Do you know when and where on their website? I just looked, and it is not up yet.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 02, 2009 02:41PM

when Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > FCPS staff said that on January 2nd, they will
> > post their report on the FCPS web site. This
> > report should include data comparing FCPS
> grades
> > to non-FCPS grades.
> >
>
> Do you know when and where on their website? I
> just looked, and it is not up yet.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d62d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/39ceb62d5a0b1726872574d3005d63d7?OpenDocument

Options/recommendation -

OPTIONS:

Option 1: No action
Option 2: Change weights only (0.5 for honors and 1.0 for AP/IB, and dual enrollment)
Option 3: Change scale only (10-point)
Option 4: Change both

RECOMMENDATION:

That the School Board approve Option 2., change weights only, as recommended by the Superintendent.

Option 2 enables FCPS to maintain high academic standards while recognizing and rewarding students who choose to take the most rigorous courses. Option 3 lowers performance expectations and grading standards, and would not substantively address decisions on merit scholarship or honors at the time of admission. Option 1 does not address the merit scholarship or honors at admissions issue, but does maintain high academic standards and performance expectations.

The Superintendent recommends implementing increased weighting for AP/IB courses retroactively on all transcripts issued at the end of the first semester of this school year. Increased weights for honors classes would begin with courses taken prospectively with the 2009-10 school year. It is possible to implement both changes for the 2009-10 school year, but a delay would eliminate the possibility of benefiting some current seniors seeking merit scholarships or, honors at admissions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Awakened ()
Date: January 02, 2009 02:44PM

OPTION 4 NOW.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Big whoop ()
Date: January 02, 2009 03:35PM

I don't suppose that the school board and staff will EVER do ANYTHING because it's the right thing to do for students, and because it is what the community wants.

This is very half assed measure. Can anyone tell me the downside to changing the grading scale? The downside to helping our kids get more scholarships? The downside to having our kids on the same scale as the rest of the country so that college admissions people can compare apples to apples? Is there a reason for handicapping FCPS students? To prove that we are just the cool, we don't need to be on the same scale as the rest of the country and our parents don't need that extra scholarship money because we're all just so bloody rich?

This makes me sick. Just one more slap in the face from FCPS staff to students and parents in Fairfax county, just before they vote to raise your taxes to pay for this latest insult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Big nothing ()
Date: January 02, 2009 03:39PM

Awakened Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OPTION 4 NOW.

Not going to happen. Our democrats on the school, which is now effectively all 12 school board members, never, ever, vote against staff recommendations. You must remember that they do not work for you, the voters, but for staff. Always.

Sorry. It totally stinks, but the school board will vote to screw students, and their parents, because that's what staff wants.

Can anyone explain WHY staff wants this? Why they do not support changing the grading scale and helping our students?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Have you heard? ()
Date: January 02, 2009 03:45PM

Staff in many high schools are now moving to two levels of courses, Honors classes and AP classes. EVERY academic class will now be called Honors so that every student gets the .5 bump on the grades. Wouldn't it be easier to simply change the grading scale? And wouldn't it be better to continue to have 3 levels of academic classes, regular, Honors, and AP? Rather than throwing all the kids into a class labeled Honors, forcing the teacher to teach to kids way below grade level, kids at grade level, and kids way beyond grade level? How is a teacher supposed to teach to all those different levels in one class room? Why can't there be REAL Honors classes? We all know that labeling ALL classes as Honors means no real Honors or GT classes for those above grade level. They may as well call them all Honors for Dummies because that's the level that they will be taught.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Give me a break ()
Date: January 02, 2009 04:01PM

Great. Who went and got all the soccer moms riled up again! Just what we need here. Who cares what you all think. The school board could give a rats ass what you think. You put them on notice huh? I'm sure they are shaking in their boots. Ladies please, go back to the kitchen.

The "core issue" here is you need to spend more time being parents to your kids and less time trying to bust the school systems balls. If you know all then take your kid out of school and home school them. If that does not sound like a good idea then STFU.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 02, 2009 07:49PM

Have you heard? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Staff in many high schools are now moving to two
> levels of courses, Honors classes and AP classes.

This is not correct. It is true that high schools are moving to two levels, but the levels are Regular and either Honors or AP. Honors (preAP/PreIB) are generally the advanced classes for 9 & 10, AP/IB are generally for 11/12. What's happened at the AP HSe is that, if an AP class is offered, the honors course is eliminated leaving the advanced students with the choice of either all AP courses or going crazy in a couple Regular classes. At the IB HSes, sometimes the school offers both SL and HL as well as the Regular classes, with the SL effectively being the Honors level. (Note, however, the Staff seems to be proposing a +1 to the grade whether the class is SL or HL...)

Options: ReplyQuote
FCPS grading policy--impact of Dale's proposal
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: January 02, 2009 11:52PM

Dale's recommendation probably would reduce the number of colleges at which FCPS kids were admitted, because they would continue to have more Bs on their transcripts than if they attended other schools. When it comes to admissions, selective colleges like to see As, not Bs. And, they hate Cs.

Increasing weighting for advanced courses will help FCPS kids get more merit scholarships and get into more college honors programs. This is especially true if their SAT scores are higher than many of their college classmates, because the FCPS kids couldn't get into "reach" colleges given their letter grades.

Dale doesn't seem to want to give FCPS kids the ability to choose between being an "average" student in a more selective college and being a star at a less selective college.

Grading policies are on the agenda for the Thursday night, January 8th, School Board meeting at Luther Jackson MS. Interested parents are strongly encouraged to attend and show their support for changing grading scale as well as weights for advanced courses.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Madison Mom ()
Date: January 02, 2009 11:54PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you heard? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Staff in many high schools are now moving to
> two
> > levels of courses, Honors classes and AP
> classes.
>
> This is not correct. It is true that high schools
> are moving to two levels, but the levels are
> Regular and either Honors or AP. Honors
> (preAP/PreIB) are generally the advanced classes
> for 9 & 10, AP/IB are generally for 11/12. What's
> happened at the AP HSe is that, if an AP class is
> offered, the honors course is eliminated leaving
> the advanced students with the choice of either
> all AP courses or going crazy in a couple Regular
> classes. At the IB HSes, sometimes the school
> offers both SL and HL as well as the Regular
> classes, with the SL effectively being the Honors
> level. (Note, however, the Staff seems to be
> proposing a +1 to the grade whether the class is
> SL or HL...)

Perhaps you haven't heard. At Thoreau and Madison, academic classes are now called Honors. At Thoreau it's only two of the four academic areas but next year will be all 4. Madison is doing the same thing. I've heard that eventually all the middle schools and high schools will do this.

This new weighting will be great for kids in IB school since all their SL classes will get a +1. Maybe staff and school board think that will encourage more parents to pupil place their children in IB schools so they can get higher GPA's.

I am happy to see that students who take classes beyond AP will now get the extra point in their GPA. I always thought it was strange that my kids could get an extra point for AP but nothing for the math classes beyond AP.

What a shame our students will still be penalized by the grading scale. It would be so nice if our staff and school board would go all the way and get our grading scale in line with the rest of the nation. Extra points for Honors and SL is nice, but the 10 point scale would be even better. Can't staff and school board ever do the right thing for our kids? It could also save parents thousands of dollars in scholarship money. So why not do it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: January 03, 2009 06:23PM

anyone know the scale at Dale's previous school system?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: info ()
Date: January 03, 2009 07:08PM

ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anyone know the scale at Dale's previous school
> system?


Dale was with Frederick, MD. Here is something I just found:
http://fcps.schoolwires.com/15291011616376173/lib/15291011616376173/GraduationHonorsBrochure.pdf

You can see that they have the 10 point scale.

Interestingly they have honors, merit and directed level courses. Honors are for those that consistently exceed grade level, merit is for those that generally exceed grade level, and directed is basic essentially (saw those descriptions in a course guide for Frederick)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--impact of Dale's proposal
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 03, 2009 11:40PM

Unfortunately the School Board works for staff, and not the parents. While I agree that parents and students should let the school board know how they feel, it never matters. The Board always votes for whatever staff recommends.

The amazing thing is that staff took the time, and money, to do a rather extensive study only to ignore the results. The report said that the grading scale hurts our students and cost our parents money, yet they won't change it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 03, 2009 11:43PM

info Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > anyone know the scale at Dale's previous school
> > system?
>
>
> Dale was with Frederick, MD. Here is something I
> just found:
> http://fcps.schoolwires.com/15291011616376173/lib/
> 15291011616376173/GraduationHonorsBrochure.pdf
>
> You can see that they have the 10 point scale.
>
> Interestingly they have honors, merit and directed
> level courses. Honors are for those that
> consistently exceed grade level, merit is for
> those that generally exceed grade level, and
> directed is basic essentially (saw those
> descriptions in a course guide for Frederick)

Thank you for this post.

That would be awesome if FCPS students had those options! Clearly it's not Dale's idea to have this silly grading scale that harms students, nor is it his idea to limit the options for students above grade level. It's the staff and school board who support this foolishness.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: OMG ()
Date: January 04, 2009 06:35AM

You put the school board on NOTICE!!!!! Right here on FFU? OMFG what will they ever do now!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: January 05, 2009 10:01AM

school board meeting this Thursday and e-mail addresses-----

Dear FAIRGRADE Supporter,


We have two immediate CALL TO ACTION items for all FAIRGRADE supporters:


1. THURSDAY, January 8th: Everyone reading this email MUST attend the School Board meeting this Thursday, January 8th, promptly at 7:00pm at Luther Jackson Middle School located at 3020 Gallows Road in Falls Church. Dale's decision to completely ignore the evidence in the FCPS report, and recommend only a change to the weights for advanced courses, leaves thousands of FCPS students and their GPAs at a competitive disadvantage statewide and nationwide.


A huge crowd and respectful behavior will show the School Board that Dale's recommendation is WRONG and unacceptable to FCPS parents and students. Bring small signs if you want and PLEASE WEAR A WHITE SHIRT. If you cannot get into the auditorium due to large crowds, do not leave. We'll have a sign-up sheet to ensure that all attendees are accounted for and the final count will be given to FCPS officials. FAIRGRADE has learned that support for Dale's recommendation is splintered. We only need seven School Board members to vote against Dale's recommendation and in favor of a 10-point scale (with pluses and minuses) and increased weights. YOUR PRESENCE AT THIS MEETING IS CRITICAL!


2. TODAY: Email your School Board member and the At-Large members asking them specifically if they have read the entire FCPS report. FCPS' own research supports changing BOTH the grading scale and weights for advanced courses, which is one of the four options presented to Dale in the FCPS report. Ask the School Board members their position about the fourth option, OPTION D, that changes BOTH the grading scale and weights. Here is a list of all the School Board Members' Email addresses:


Mr. Daniel Storck, Chairman, Mount Vernon District - Email: daniel.storck@fcps.edu


Ms. Kathy Smith, Vice Chairman, Sully District - Email: kathy.l.smith@fcps.edu


Ms. Liz Bradsher, Springfield District - Email: elizabeth.bradsher@fcps.edu


Mr. Brad Center, Lee District - Email: brad.center@fcps.edu


Mr. Stuart Gibson, Hunter Mill District - Email: stuart.gibson@fcps.edu


Ms. Tina Hone, Member at Large - Email: martina.hone@fcps.edu


Ms. Kaye Kory, Mason District - Email: kaye.kory@fcps.edu


Mr. Ilryong Moon, Member at Large - Email: ilryong.moon@fcps.edu


Mr. Philip A. Niedzielski-Eichner, Providence District - Email: pneichner@fcps.edu


Mr. James Raney, Member at Large - Email: james.raney@fcps.edu


Ms. Jane Strauss, Dranesville District - Email: jane.strauss@fcps.edu


Ms. Tessie Wilson, Braddock District - Email: tessie.wilson@fcps.edu


DO NOT LEAVE ACTION TO OTHERS. YOUR PRESENCE AT THURSDAY'S MEETING IS CRITICAL. SIGN UP TO SPEAK (beginning at 6:00am on Monday, Jan. 5th) AND EXPRESS YOUR CONCERNS TO THE SCHOOL BOARD. (go to: http://www.fcps.edu/schlbd/requestspeak.htm) This show of support should take no more than an hour of your time beginning at 7:00pm and concluding around 8:00pm.


Prior to Thursday's (1.8.09) School Board meeting, call and email Superintendent Dale and the School Board to register your opinion about Dale's recommendation to NOT change the grading scale.


The School Board will also meet for a work session on January 12th and vote is expected on January 22nd at 7:00pm at Luther Jackson Middle School - 3020 Gallows Road in Falls Church.


We'll continue to update supporters via email. Please forward this CRITICAL UPDATE to friends and neighbors.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: info ()
Date: January 06, 2009 06:38AM

Did you see Marc Fisher's article? He makes some excellent points. Since when does a 1200-1249 SAT mean a student should have a really high GPA, really a 4.0? That simply means other districts have grade inflation. Here it is:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/05/AR2009010502769.html

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: January 06, 2009 08:33AM

any school board members on record regarding this issue? no reply from mine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Parent of Snot Nosed Brats ()
Date: January 06, 2009 09:07AM

When teachers shift the grading bell curve accordingly and little Johnny still gets a B with an 87 instead of a 93 under the current sysytem it won't help him one bit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: January 06, 2009 10:03AM

info Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you see Marc Fisher's article? He makes some
> excellent points. Since when does a 1200-1249 SAT
> mean a student should have a really high GPA,
> really a 4.0? That simply means other districts
> have grade inflation. Here it is:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic
> le/2009/01/05/AR2009010502769.html


I saw it....I just think the kid from MoCo with the 4.0 gets the nod over the kid from FFX with the 3.8 almost every time even though actual numeric grades, SAT, etc. are equal. I think the Fairgrade woman is from Georgetown admissions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: January 06, 2009 10:32AM

I was just on the FCPS homepage and saw a photo of a principal taking a pie in the face as a reward for students in a reading program. Hmmm. That's up there with the you read I shave my head or climb on the roof school of academia.

On the news feed sidebar it has announcements for open enrollment in FLES and FLI as well as application time for the elementary magnets. On the county budget sessions input the public felt it was more important to maintain class sizes than extra programs. I assume they also want to maintain modified calendar. Why are special programs more important than core baseline instruction?

My comment on the grading scale is simple. Are any school board memebrs or again those on the Leadership Team going to reimburse any given family whose child missed out on specific scholarship money because the GPA?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: interesting issue ()
Date: January 06, 2009 12:17PM

I am not sure this is the highest priority issue in our schools. This does not mean that one side or the other may not have solid claims; but it strikes me that given both the fiscal and academic challenges before this school system that it is of a lower priority nature.

Those students who apply to very competitive schools are likely at a disadvantage, if only because given the absurd levels of competition the optics of the grading system matter. This is of course some concern to certain parents (myself included), but again it doesn't rise to my chief set of concerns.

I don't think diatribes against the intellectual elite and their parents are helpful; indeed, our economy largely runs on the intellectual and other capital generated by the cognitive elite, and it makes sense in terms of national interest to fully support them. Thus, the shots are Neen seem to be borne from emotion and some sort of class envy as opposed to stating anything meaningful.

Where FCPS perplexes me is that they failed to issue a brief cogent statement as to the advantages of the grading system. Not a 120 page report - mind you - but a statement of position that evinces leadership and a raison d'etre behind their policy. People may not like the policies, but if institutions show people that they have firm beliefs driven by empirical proof, then over time confidence is inspired. Let us know why we are doing it.

I would assume the policy is driven by a belief that requiring higher standards produces students with better student habits and levels of competence. And with a group of truly talented but under-motivated students the policy may make sense. I am not sure that this group is the one most deserving of urgent attention, notwithstanding the mantra of concern for all students.

But the worst problem facing FCPS - other than their fiscal problems - is flat out one of minority underachievement. This problem just portends all sorts of trouble in the future - including, although folks are loathe to acknowledge it, flight of better achieving students from the schools. Of course, many will disagree, but really, the trends don't help if one looks at an overall picture of the schools in 2015, especially against the increasingly unrealistic no-child left behind standards through the years, which have their own dooming potential. Nothing would inculcate more confidence in this large school system if the achievement gaps would radically close. And I am not sure that the grading system in any way helps ameliorate that problem; common sense indicates that it might indeed be harmful.

Perhaps someone from the school system can address this last point?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: January 06, 2009 01:04PM

interesting issue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------



>
> Where FCPS perplexes me is that they failed to
> issue a brief cogent statement as to the
> advantages of the grading system. Not a 120 page
> report - mind you - but a statement of position
> that evinces leadership and a raison d'etre behind
> their policy. People may not like the policies,
> but if institutions show people that they have
> firm beliefs driven by empirical proof, then over
> time confidence is inspired. Let us know why we
> are doing it.
>


I think we can all agree with this...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 06, 2009 10:02PM

info Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you see Marc Fisher's article? He makes some
> excellent points. Since when does a 1200-1249 SAT
> mean a student should have a really high GPA,
> really a 4.0? That simply means other districts
> have grade inflation. Here it is:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic
> le/2009/01/05/AR2009010502769.html

Fisher obviously is an idiot or didn't actually read the study. (or both...) The SATs were MEDIAN scores for high schools. They were just used to allow correlation between GPAs at FCPS HSes and districts with 10 point scales. When correlated (or even when not...) GPAs at FCPS HSes are significantly lower than at other HSes and the study does show that HS REPORTED GPAs (both weighted and unweighted) ARE used for a variety of purposes including college admissions, merit scholarships, etc.).

Fisher also wrote about his experience in admissions. He talked about the experienced admissions officers knowing about the French teacher who grades hard and the English teacher who gives all As. I believe him, but, ... who wants to bet that the French teacher is at Groton and the English teacher's at Choate?

He also wrote about the admissions committees making comparisons between kids applying from the same schools. How many kids from a single FCPS HS (other than TJ) are applying to e.g. Pomona? Carleton? MIT? UChicago? ...

In other words, his anecdotes actually make the point that the admissions officers know their FEEDER schools, are comparing kids from their FEEDER schools, and kids from other schools are at a clear disadvantage. Why add to that disadvantage FCPS's clearly lower unweighted and weighted GPAs?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: interesting issue ()
Date: January 06, 2009 10:34PM

Westfield Dad - coming from a small, very competitive and competent school district in the northern region of this country, I have been surprised at the dearth of interest in supporting attendance at schools beyond the public schools in Virginia. Of course, one explanation might be that the public universities here are generally good, but really, the ethic from the guidance departments (save for TJ) is one that focuses on Virginia schools. Again, save for TJ, students that aspire to the US News and World Report top 25 (apart from UVa) or top liberal arts colleges (Williams, Amherst, et.al) are not discouraged, but they are not really enthusiastically supported in their quest. Thus I can see why the FairGrade issue is one that would not resonate with the bureaucracy. And pursuing the Fairgrade agenda invites claims of elitism, which of course is falsely conflated with simply aspiring to do as well as one can - a trait which when associated with white or asian middle class students is often trivialized as grubby and unbecoming. But it is not surprising given the general trade union mentality of this nation's 12th largest school district.

As I state above, however, I am not sure this rises to the highest level of import right now. Bigger problems loom.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Boo ()
Date: January 06, 2009 10:37PM

I was in anuther distickt

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2009 03:11AM

interesting issue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not sure this is the highest priority issue
> in our schools. This does not mean that one side
> or the other may not have solid claims; but it
> strikes me that given both the fiscal and academic
> challenges before this school system that it is of
> a lower priority nature.
>
> Those students who apply to very competitive
> schools are likely at a disadvantage, if only
> because given the absurd levels of competition the
> optics of the grading system matter. This is of
> course some concern to certain parents (myself
> included), but again it doesn't rise to my chief
> set of concerns.
>
> I don't think diatribes against the intellectual
> elite and their parents are helpful; indeed, our
> economy largely runs on the intellectual and other
> capital generated by the cognitive elite, and it
> makes sense in terms of national interest to fully
> support them. Thus, the shots are Neen seem to
> be borne from emotion and some sort of class envy
> as opposed to stating anything meaningful.
>
> Where FCPS perplexes me is that they failed to
> issue a brief cogent statement as to the
> advantages of the grading system. Not a 120 page
> report - mind you - but a statement of position
> that evinces leadership and a raison d'etre behind
> their policy. People may not like the policies,
> but if institutions show people that they have
> firm beliefs driven by empirical proof, then over
> time confidence is inspired. Let us know why we
> are doing it.
>
> I would assume the policy is driven by a belief
> that requiring higher standards produces students
> with better student habits and levels of
> competence. And with a group of truly talented
> but under-motivated students the policy may make
> sense. I am not sure that this group is the one
> most deserving of urgent attention,
> notwithstanding the mantra of concern for all
> students.
>
> But the worst problem facing FCPS - other than
> their fiscal problems - is flat out one of
> minority underachievement. This problem just
> portends all sorts of trouble in the future -
> including, although folks are loathe to
> acknowledge it, flight of better achieving
> students from the schools. Of course, many will
> disagree, but really, the trends don't help if one
> looks at an overall picture of the schools in
> 2015, especially against the increasingly
> unrealistic no-child left behind standards through
> the years, which have their own dooming potential.
> Nothing would inculcate more confidence in this
> large school system if the achievement gaps would
> radically close. And I am not sure that the
> grading system in any way helps ameliorate that
> problem; common sense indicates that it might
> indeed be harmful.
>
> Perhaps someone from the school system can address
> this last point?


GReat post, worth my posting it again. Ummmm.......your writing is very familiar. Nice to 'see' you again.

FCPS writes a 120 page report that shows their study's conclusion was that our grading system hurts our students chances of getting scholarships and being admitted to Honor's programs. They also admit that it harms those students on the bottom. Then they recommend not changing this harmful grading policy, without any explanation for that recommendation.

The most 2 most valid reasons that I have heard, for this inexplicable recommendation, 1) by agreeing to increasing Honors classes to a weighted .05, AP to 1. and standard level IB and higher level both get a full point. Under this plan, students at IB schools will have higher GPA's and that might encourage more AP students to transfer to IB schools. Quite a stretch, but I wouldn't be surprise if staff believed it. They will try nearly anything to fill IB schools. Second, and more likely, state colleges across the state do not want to FCPS to change our grading scale. Our students already have the highest SAT scores in the state. If their grades are comparable to the rest of the state, it will make it even more difficult for the state schools to put such strict limits on FCPS students.

I agree that this policy will continue to increase the gap between Blacks/Hispanics and Asians/whites. I agree too that it will exacerbate the white flight problem which I see more and more often among GT parents. More high end students are leaving the system. The reason that the administration doesn't address the problem is very simple. They do not care. They are fond of the high performing students or their demanding parents. If more leave the system, the happier the administration and school board will be. What they don't grasp is that more and more of those parents resent watching their taxes rise, with many of them paying over $6,000 a year for schools they don't use, schools that are not providing services to their children. As resentment builds, and the schools continue their decline, FCPS will lose their base of support and the cry to eliminate the last government monopoly will continue to build. It's the only good thing about this policy that hurts our students, it pushes us one step closer to school choice.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 07, 2009 03:14AM

interesting issue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield Dad - coming from a small, very
> competitive and competent school district in the
> northern region of this country, I have been
> surprised at the dearth of interest in supporting
> attendance at schools beyond the public schools in
> Virginia. Of course, one explanation might be that
> the public universities here are generally good,
> but really, the ethic from the guidance
> departments (save for TJ) is one that focuses on
> Virginia schools. Again, save for TJ, students
> that aspire to the US News and World Report top 25
> (apart from UVa) or top liberal arts colleges
> (Williams, Amherst, et.al) are not discouraged,
> but they are not really enthusiastically supported
> in their quest. Thus I can see why the FairGrade
> issue is one that would not resonate with the
> bureaucracy. And pursuing the Fairgrade agenda
> invites claims of elitism, which of course is
> falsely conflated with simply aspiring to do as
> well as one can - a trait which when associated
> with white or asian middle class students is often
> trivialized as grubby and unbecoming. But it is
> not surprising given the general trade union
> mentality of this nation's 12th largest school
> district.
>
> As I state above, however, I am not sure this
> rises to the highest level of import right now.
> Bigger problems loom.

Oh How I have missed you! You always nail it.

Yes, bigger problems loom, but this one was so easy. All they needed to do was change the scale so that our students are competitive with the rest of Virginia and the rest of the country. Why was that too much to ask? Why can't the EVER do what helps students and their families?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: info ()
Date: January 07, 2009 05:33AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > The most 2 most valid reasons that I have heard,
> for this inexplicable recommendation, 1) by
> agreeing to increasing Honors classes to a
> weighted .05, AP to 1. and standard level IB and
> higher level both get a full point. Under this
> plan, students at IB schools will have higher
> GPA's and that might encourage more AP students to
> transfer to IB schools. Quite a stretch, but I
> wouldn't be surprise if staff believed it. They
> will try nearly anything to fill IB schools.
> Second, and more likely, state colleges across the
> state do not want to FCPS to change our grading
> scale. Our students already have the highest SAT
> scores in the state. If their grades are
> comparable to the rest of the state, it will make
> it even more difficult for the state schools to
> put such strict limits on FCPS students.
>
Your second point might have merit. The first about IB, totally ridiculous as students in AP schools can take those courses in their junior year for the full point, no benefit to switching to an IB school (actually they can take AP courses earlier too..IB you have to wait till junior year)

Secondly, a person responding to the Post's article commented in their on-line section (i.e the WashPost's comments for the article) that IB students are harmed because they don't give the current .5 until they are in their second year of HL IB courses..because they give .5 the year the test will be given. So even with the bump to 1, IB students still come out in the losing end, and apparently have been even bigger GPA losers in the county, historically. And since some SL courses are taught in the county over 2 years (WHY???) those classes too have to wait on the bump. So, colleges looking at students junior year transcripts..which they all do, don't see any weighted GPA for IB students. Just the straight GPA even if they are in the IB diploma program and taking 6 IB classes their junior year. I would expect FAIRGRADE would be particularly targeting IB families to come out on Thursday.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: info ()
Date: January 07, 2009 05:37AM

Just to clarify, AP students will show the weighted GPA their junior year, since the test will be given at the end of their junior year.

In case anyone was wondering, in both AP and IB, if the student for some reason doesn't take the exam which is required, the bump is taken away.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Oakton mom too ()
Date: January 07, 2009 10:05AM

The problem that nobody has mentioned so far is that our kids compete not just with kids from other school districts/states but they compete with kids from private schools and other countries where education is much more in depth. They have not just one or two but all classes comparable to AP or even higher. For example, kids in Belgium learn two-three foreign languages starting in elementary school. Kids in Russia start studying algebra in 6th grade. Changing the grading system won't help our kids to get into Ivy League schools or get scholarships. Changing the education system so our kids can compete with private schools and foreign kids on the same level will. Based on the report I saw none of the Oakton HS graduates was accepted to any of the Ivy League schools. Right now I have to agree with some of the posts here that our high school education is a joke. Here is a 20/20 epizode that talks about it: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: oaktonmom ()
Date: January 07, 2009 11:43AM

How ironic that the report cards/evaluations for FCPS are all based upon a 10 point scale. The SOL pass / fail scores use a 10 point scale as does the latest report from Education Weekly.

http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2009/17src.h28.html

Guess what FCPS? In our world, you really got a C, not a B. I don't have time to research, but I wonder how many schools would not meet the benchmarks on SOLs if they were judged using a 6 point scale? FCPS should be forced to be evaluated using the same scale it imposes upon its students!

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: interesting issue ()
Date: January 08, 2009 11:33AM

neen - thanks for the compliment - you may have intuited that I also post as quantum - you know - the one that many others have deemed dim witted and stupid.

Oaktonmom - you are correct - Oakton's center of gravity is not to place its highest achievers into Ivy League and other top schools. There were a few in one of my offspring's class who did get in Ivy League schools a few years back, including my own (I am dumb but my kids are not). In the scheme of things, it may not matter, but my experience in my own small Northern high school years ago argues differently. The top of our class went to the best schools in the nation, and it had a cascading effect - where the 33rd percentile or so went to excellent national caliber schools such Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin, along with smaller schools like Carleton and Grinnell. And it raised the bar for the bottom of the class, too. While to parents getting into name schools is a 'prestige" game, at bottom there is a level of preparedness that is required to both matriculate and succeed at competitive schools, and the earlier that is recognized, the better high school results tend to be. The atmosphere in this small school district (and the 20 that surrounded it) was one that reflected a seriousness about education and mastery of learning. But I have posted before about the numerous advantages of small school districts, where the towns and villages actually compete to improve the quality of their schools. It enhances the social contract between taxpayers and the schools - such is the effect of competition. That isn't something that is going to come about in Fairfax (which along with Montgomery County are two rare exceptions to the rule that the nation's largest systems also tend to be our worst). And the school system makes things worse than they need to be by consistently giving off vibes that it it is unresponsive to the needs of its consistently competent students and their parents.

And by the way, TJ alone isn't the answer. I like TJ - it fulfills its contract well and our society - and particularly our society - which lacks the homogeneity of a Sweden or a Norway - needs to really, really support the cognitive elite for us to prosper - but shipping 150 national merit finalist scholarship types to one location doesn't raise the expectations at the other schools - the 150 likely were going to reach that level of expertise almost anywhere (although I concede the math and physics at the 11th and 12th grade levels taken through a local university are TJ experiences that would be difficult to replicate in the local schools). There's no reason not to inculcate top level expectations at the other schools - which means more than lip service. Changing the grading scale may be one small element in getting that done.

And it would be a mistake to suggest that I am arguing against going to Virginia public universities. They are generally excellent and it is a nice plus in living here. But a rising tide generally lifts all boats, and higher aspirations and concrete plans to reach them I think will help.

But at bottom the elephant in the room lurks. Query what we can do to improve minority performance. History relates that if not improved, the entire school system will really suffer.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: ExportYourJobsAndImportYourProducts ()
Date: January 08, 2009 12:52PM

just noticed my kid has travel bball game tonight, so I'll get to witness the festivities firsthand. I don't sense there will the turnout Fairgrade expects.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 08, 2009 08:11PM

Note, there's an interesting feedback mechanism in the grading scheme issue & applications to the top schools. The Fairfax kids know their GPAs. They see the GPAs at the top 50 or so colleges/universities so they figure there's no chance of getting in so don't apply. Since they don't apply, they don't get in. Since they don't get in, there's no track record from the HSes to the colleges, next year's kids have no kids from the previous years to compare to, guidance offices aren't pressured to see that the kids look around, ...

On this topic, the FCPS schools get their scattergrams of acceptance by GPA/SATs for kids to look at/compare to/ get ideas where they've got a reasonable chance of acceptance. Kids can access those results themselves at home to help them out in their searches. Definitely useful.

However, there are a couple catches for the top kids we're discussing -

Of course, the scattergrams only include schools where there were at least 5 admittances from that FCPS HS. Below that you end up with privacy issues. So, the kids only see the schools prior year kids applied to and only those with more admittances than are likely to ever produce useful results at the top colleges we're talking about.

There's a separate set of scattergrams for results from ALL FCPS HSes that would certainly be useful for these top kids, but ... those results are only available on screens that only the guidance people have access to ... How many kids are going to make the effort? How many are even going to know it's possible? ...

interesting issue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> neen - thanks for the compliment - you may have
> intuited that I also post as quantum - you know -
> the one that many others have deemed dim witted
> and stupid.
>
> Oaktonmom - you are correct - Oakton's center of
> gravity is not to place its highest achievers into
> Ivy League and other top schools. There were a
> few in one of my offspring's class who did get in
> Ivy League schools a few years back, including my
> own (I am dumb but my kids are not). In the
> scheme of things, it may not matter, but my
> experience in my own small Northern high school
> years ago argues differently. The top of our
> class went to the best schools in the nation, and
> it had a cascading effect - where the 33rd
> percentile or so went to excellent national
> caliber schools such Illinois, Michigan and
> Wisconsin, along with smaller schools like
> Carleton and Grinnell. And it raised the bar for
> the bottom of the class, too. While to parents
> getting into name schools is a 'prestige" game, at
> bottom there is a level of preparedness that is
> required to both matriculate and succeed at
> competitive schools, and the earlier that is
> recognized, the better high school results tend to
> be. The atmosphere in this small school district
> (and the 20 that surrounded it) was one that
> reflected a seriousness about education and
> mastery of learning. But I have posted before
> about the numerous advantages of small school
> districts, where the towns and villages actually
> compete to improve the quality of their schools.
> It enhances the social contract between taxpayers
> and the schools - such is the effect of
> competition. That isn't something that is going
> to come about in Fairfax (which along with
> Montgomery County are two rare exceptions to the
> rule that the nation's largest systems also tend
> to be our worst). And the school system makes
> things worse than they need to be by consistently
> giving off vibes that it it is unresponsive to the
> needs of its consistently competent students and
> their parents.
>
> And by the way, TJ alone isn't the answer. I like
> TJ - it fulfills its contract well and our society
> - and particularly our society - which lacks the
> homogeneity of a Sweden or a Norway - needs to
> really, really support the cognitive elite for us
> to prosper - but shipping 150 national merit
> finalist scholarship types to one location doesn't
> raise the expectations at the other schools - the
> 150 likely were going to reach that level of
> expertise almost anywhere (although I concede the
> math and physics at the 11th and 12th grade levels
> taken through a local university are TJ
> experiences that would be difficult to replicate
> in the local schools). There's no reason not to
> inculcate top level expectations at the other
> schools - which means more than lip service.
> Changing the grading scale may be one small
> element in getting that done.
>
> And it would be a mistake to suggest that I am
> arguing against going to Virginia public
> universities. They are generally excellent and it
> is a nice plus in living here. But a rising tide
> generally lifts all boats, and higher aspirations
> and concrete plans to reach them I think will
> help.
>
> But at bottom the elephant in the room lurks.
> Query what we can do to improve minority
> performance. History relates that if not
> improved, the entire school system will really
> suffer.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: interesting issue ()
Date: January 09, 2009 12:04PM

Westfield Dad - I think TJ's scattergram does not hew to the less than 5 rule. Interesting point you make, however. Query whether the counselors use the scattergrams to influence decisions. My guess is they do, which is yet another argument for the Fairgrade folks.

TJ works its own negative magic. There are only so many top students that a very competitive college will take from a single high school. Not a knock on TJ - just the way things are.

This is why I think it so vital to set aspirations high at the other high schools. They certainly have significant numbers of excellent students.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Force Field ()
Date: January 09, 2009 12:41PM

interesting issue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> TJ works its own negative magic. There are only
> so many top students that a very competitive
> college will take from a single high school. Not
> a knock on TJ - just the way things are.
>
You're surely right - but it is also true that not every TJ student deserves to be admitted to every highly selective college or university in the country. Those who are turned down - having never been turned down before - may tend to speculate that the outcome might have been different had they remained at a neighborhood school.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: interesting issue ()
Date: January 09, 2009 02:08PM

You are correct force field.

There are a few that TJ that don't belong there. And I don't mean that in a negative way or in terms of their intellect or talent. It is not a place to be if a kid is there to merely to satisfy one's parents. Some of these student would prosper in their base school environment.

With all the chase for prestige and the like, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that one should get the most out of where ever they go. And while places take more work than others, the really focused can get a lot out of most all FCPS schools.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: recent fcps student ()
Date: January 09, 2009 03:10PM

I went to uva from fcps, and as any other observant fcps student (especially one from a north county hs) will tell you, we are leagues above the vast majority of students from elsewhere in VA. The out of state students are expectedly very well qualified, but it is truly a crime that hundreds upon hundreds of mediocre VA students from lower quality high schools get in with their inflated GPAs (and it's not just the grading scale, it's more to do with the fact that there is so little competition at their schools) over so many fcps students who are in general much brighter and more hardworking than them.

It's not just the fault of fcps, it's also the administrations of elite liberal colleges that like to favor kids from underperforming and underrepresented groups. I'm afraid, like with most things, the world does not like those who are privileged and people do whatever they can to stack things against them. It's not fair to the kids.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: chantilly04 ()
Date: January 09, 2009 03:27PM

recent fcps student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I went to uva from fcps, and as any other
> observant fcps student (especially one from a
> north county hs) will tell you, we are leagues
> above the vast majority of students from elsewhere
> in VA. The out of state students are expectedly
> very well qualified, but it is truly a crime that
> hundreds upon hundreds of mediocre VA students
> from lower quality high schools get in with their
> inflated GPAs (and it's not just the grading
> scale, it's more to do with the fact that there is
> so little competition at their schools) over so
> many fcps students who are in general much
> brighter and more hardworking than them.
>
> It's not just the fault of fcps, it's also the
> administrations of elite liberal colleges that
> like to favor kids from underperforming and
> underrepresented groups. I'm afraid, like with
> most things, the world does not like those who are
> privileged and people do whatever they can to
> stack things against them. It's not fair to the
> kids.


So true. I am on my final semester at Virginia Tech, and while their are smart kids, their are a lot of dumb kids that get in from rural parts of Virginia, and other parts. In general the kids I went to school with in Chantilly were much smarter as a whole then the students at Tech.

One positive out of this, is being a fcps grad you do not have to try nearly as hard to do good in college as kids from other school systems. FCPS kids know so much more than others, it's like we had to work harder for 12 years, but thanks to FCPS college is a breeze. I would imagine it is even easier at small colleges such as Radford and ODU for FCPS students.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Storm Center ()
Date: January 09, 2009 04:39PM

II/Quantum, whatever,

People will be more receptive to your posts when you refrain from bragging about how smart you or your kids are (I'll bet you write those braggy Christmas letters, too!), because in general you make good points. But let's be honest, the bragging is off-putting.

I get your point about small school districts; however, I have had experience with jurisdictions where one small school district struggling for funds and resources was adjacent to one always rich with resources (townships in MA), and guess what? The area would have been better served with one central school district. So the single district formula does not always work.

The single largest problem that FCPS has is the rapidly changing demographic, and the continued low expectations for kids in relatively poorer or less acclimated districts. Unless and until they treat poor and poor immigrant students (non-Asian) with the same regard (read standards) that they reserve for their middle class counterparts, the County will continue to have schools that lag well behind.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 10, 2009 01:02AM

So true. I am on my final semester at Virginia
> Tech, and while their are smart kids, their are a
> lot of dumb kids that get in from rural parts of
> Virginia, and other parts. In general the kids I
> went to school with in Chantilly were much smarter
> as a whole then the students at Tech.
>
> One positive out of this, is being a fcps grad you
> do not have to try nearly as hard to do good in
> college as kids from other school systems. FCPS
> kids know so much more than others, it's like we
> had to work harder for 12 years, but thanks to
> FCPS college is a breeze. I would imagine it is
> even easier at small colleges such as Radford and
> ODU for FCPS students.

What a shame that your GPA in FCPS didn't allow you to get into a more challenging college where you could have soared.

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Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: January 11, 2009 11:20PM

Recent FCPS Student,

Do your FCPS friends and classmates who attended out of state colleges also feel like they are more qualified than most of their college classmates?

recent fcps student Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I went to uva from fcps, and as any other
> observant fcps student (especially one from a
> north county hs) will tell you, we are leagues
> above the vast majority of students from elsewhere
> in VA. The out of state students are expectedly
> very well qualified, but it is truly a crime that
> hundreds upon hundreds of mediocre VA students
> from lower quality high schools get in with their
> inflated GPAs (and it's not just the grading
> scale, it's more to do with the fact that there is
> so little competition at their schools) over so
> many fcps students who are in general much
> brighter and more hardworking than them.
>
> It's not just the fault of fcps, it's also the
> administrations of elite liberal colleges that
> like to favor kids from underperforming and
> underrepresented groups. I'm afraid, like with
> most things, the world does not like those who are
> privileged and people do whatever they can to
> stack things against them. It's not fair to the
> kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: FCPS grading policy--school board on notice
Posted by: steve k ()
Date: January 11, 2009 11:37PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Recent FCPS Student,
>
> Do your FCPS friends and classmates who attended
> out of state colleges also feel like they are more
> qualified than most of their college classmates?
>
>
> recent fcps student Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I went to uva from fcps, and as any other
> > observant fcps student (especially one from a
> > north county hs) will tell you, we are leagues
> > above the vast majority of students from
> elsewhere
> > in VA. The out of state students are
> expectedly
> > very well qualified, but it is truly a crime
> that
> > hundreds upon hundreds of mediocre VA students
> > from lower quality high schools get in with
> their
> > inflated GPAs (and it's not just the grading
> > scale, it's more to do with the fact that there
> is
> > so little competition at their schools) over so
> > many fcps students who are in general much
> > brighter and more hardworking than them.
> >
> > It's not just the fault of fcps, it's also the
> > administrations of elite liberal colleges that
> > like to favor kids from underperforming and
> > underrepresented groups. I'm afraid, like with
> > most things, the world does not like those who
> are
> > privileged and people do whatever they can to
> > stack things against them. It's not fair to
> the
> > kids.



Well that is a dumb question. It depends where they go. If they went to West Virginia of course they feel smarter, if they go to Harvard maybe not. FCPS is up to par with any school system in this country.

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