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best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: new resident ()
Date: November 08, 2013 12:39PM

Just bought a house in west springfield and it needs a new hvac system. It has gas heat but I was thinking about having a heat pump installed. Heat pump has higher efficency and lower install cost. I used heat pump in western maryland foe decades with great results. One of my new neighbors heats with oil and says its great. Local opinions please? Thanks!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Leroy ()
Date: November 08, 2013 12:40PM

BBQ grill inside. Charcoal.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Space Heater ()
Date: November 08, 2013 12:48PM

No, not oil.

Either heat pump or gas. If the heat pump is less expensive (which I'm not sure actually is right unless maybe you're counting the AC side as well), then that would be the better way to go since you're getting new heating and cooling both at one cost. The heat pump will work just as well or better here than in what likely were colder minimum temps in MD.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Curmudgeon ()
Date: November 08, 2013 02:12PM

would suggest staying away from heat pump. in extreme cold (extreme for here) it just runs all the time and fails to heat effectively. cheaper in moderate weather tho.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Not a thermodynamic expert ()
Date: November 08, 2013 02:27PM

Heat pumps are good for moderate winters (upper 30's, low 40's). When it gets really cold, it's cheaper to burn gas than run the electric heating elements that have to supplement heat pump systems. Under those conditions, heat pumps on their own just can't move enough heat into your house from the outside.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: WestSpringfieldDude ()
Date: November 08, 2013 02:39PM

Tens years ago I went dual-fuel. I have a 14 SEER heat pump and a high efficiency gas furnace. I also have a gas fired instantaneous water heater. At the time it was the best blend of bang for the buck and efficency. It's comfortable all year round. I think the switchover to the gas furnace is unscientifically programmed to occur at outdoor temps below 42deg.

I could have gone for a more expensive 16 or 17 SEER heatpump but the payback would have been much longer. I was better off spending the extra money for a 16 SEER heat pump over 14 SEER on insulation instead.

Having said all that, the newer heat pumps might change change my decsion if I were to make it today.

I wish we had access to natural gas burning ceramic fuel cell technology like the BlueGen. 85% total efficency, provides both heat and electricity.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: no more hvac ads on ffux !!! ()
Date: November 08, 2013 02:59PM

you forgot gas heating.

kerosene is very efficient but dangerous.

wood burning stoves are also very efficient, but tedious.

electric is less efficient but are the newer models both more the most safe and most reliable of options ?

why not oil? i've been in a house that had it and it was safe and reliable. they said gas would be cheaper: when they installed it. now it's more expensive !! and installing and maintaining is more expensive and dangerous.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stinker ()
Date: November 08, 2013 03:16PM

no more hvac ads on ffux !!! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> why not oil? i've been in a house that had it and
> it was safe and reliable. they said gas would be
> cheaper: when they installed it. now it's more
> expensive !! and installing and maintaining is
> more expensive and dangerous.


This for one:

ho-ast.jpg

And you'll need to have it located where a truck can get the hose to it. Lord knows what you'd have to go through these days if you ever had a spill.

Beyond that unreliable supply and greatly fluctuating costs at times, having to monitor supply, odor, etc. I'm sure that the new stuff is better but I thought that it was a pain in the ass when I had it.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: energy analyst ()
Date: November 08, 2013 05:36PM

new resident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just bought a house in west springfield and it
> needs a new hvac system. It has gas heat but I was
> thinking about having a heat pump installed. Heat
> pump has higher efficency and lower install cost.
> I used heat pump in western maryland foe decades
> with great results. One of my new neighbors heats
> with oil and says its great. Local opinions
> please? Thanks!


Heat pumps are miles ahead of even the most efficient gas furnace when comparing energy efficiency. The most important thing however is how well your home is insulated. A house that leaks heat as fast as your heating appliance can add it is going to be very costly no matter what type of energy you use to heat it. Most of the Fairfax county homes that were built in the 50s through the early 70s fall into the poorly insulated category.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: form automa ()
Date: November 08, 2013 08:32PM

he he. and insulation is both flammable and expensive.

have fun installing enough of it to use the heat pump ! (it is technically the most efficient. is it more cost effective and reliable for the price? is it from china? hmmm. time will tell...)

(some homes with them just use electric on the colder days)

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stabitha ()
Date: November 08, 2013 08:58PM

Curmudgeon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> would suggest staying away from heat pump. in
> extreme cold (extreme for here) it just runs all
> the time and fails to heat effectively. cheaper
> in moderate weather tho.

Not true. The newer heat pumps are very efficient. I installed a new one last year and the emergency heat (all electric) only comes on when temp gets into the teens, which around here isnt that often.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Heat pumps are insufficient ()
Date: November 08, 2013 09:08PM

Stabitha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Curmudgeon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > would suggest staying away from heat pump. in
> > extreme cold (extreme for here) it just runs
> all
> > the time and fails to heat effectively.
> cheaper
> > in moderate weather tho.
>
> Not true. The newer heat pumps are very efficient.
> I installed a new one last year and the emergency
> heat (all electric) only comes on when temp gets
> into the teens, which around here isnt that often.

Bullshit. The reason you had it installed was due to no natural gas in your area. Only ignorant people buy houses with electricty as the only source for heat.
Your parents were stupid.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Heat Pumps Suck ()
Date: November 08, 2013 09:24PM

I have a heat pump on the upper level, but gas heat on the lower two levels. It's actually an OK option. But, if it not were for the gas on the lower levels, there's no way I would have bought my current house. I've had heat pumps in previous homes and they just plain suck. You'll never feel warm, and you really won't save much money either.

But, do keep in mind, check into the credits that expire at the end of this year. I think if you install a 14 SEER or higher unit, you are entitled to a $300 tax credit. Granted, it won't be much when you look at the big picture of the $7,000 you'll spend on the replacement.

Thank goodness, I can do my own work. $2,300 will go a long way towards an excellent system and I'll spend the remaining $5K on a good vacation.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Watt? ()
Date: November 08, 2013 09:31PM

You are wrong. Emergency heat kicks on not only when it's cold outside, but also when there's a 3-4 degree differential between actual temp and desired temp?

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: old timer 1959 fairfax ()
Date: November 08, 2013 09:48PM

A properly sized heat pump in a well insulated home is the ultimate in comfort and efficiency. Gas and oil furnaces cannot come close to heat pumps in efficiency. I have used heat pumps for 33 years and they have been wonderful.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Paxriver ()
Date: November 08, 2013 10:35PM

I used to live in Springfield. I had heat pump, oil heat, gas furnace. Gas all the way. Specialy now.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stabitha ()
Date: November 08, 2013 10:37PM

Heat pumps are insufficient Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Bullshit. The reason you had it installed was due
> to no natural gas in your area. Only ignorant
> people buy houses with electricty as the only
> source for heat.
> Your parents were stupid.

What areas dont have natural gas? You are out of what's left of your mind.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: No Contest ()
Date: November 08, 2013 10:52PM

Natural Gas. Walk in no heat in your house flip the switch and in 15 minutes the house is warm.. mine is 2100Sq ft 4 bedroom 2 story on a crawl space no basement 100K BTU gas furnace. Furnace replacement is about 2500-4000 way below that of a heat pump system. You not just replacing the heater but also the AC with the heat pump. Heat Pumps are great if you dont have gas. In the country they beat oil, coal and electric baseboard heating but if its cold expect a drafty house. they dont cut it like the flame does. In summer there a AC and good for that.. Overall their electric bill hogs and with Obama and Fast Terry now trying to close down the coal mines and send you to the cleaners with wind power kiss your ass goodbye with the electric bill if they suceed.

The highest gas bill I have had was 220 for a month in Jan.including gas stove. electric water heater which is also cheaper with gas. Most winter months getting to Jan Feb its 140- 160 Then the Jan Feb slammer 200- 210

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Another Thought ()
Date: November 08, 2013 10:53PM

For houses on larger lots and are more remote, they might not have the option of running a gas line to the property, unless they cover all the expenses. But, most people get around this issue by burying propane tanks in their yard and use propane to run their furnace.

To the comment about a well-insulated home and the efficiency of a heat pump when all the stars are aligned right. In this area, very few homes are built with excellent energy conservation ratings. Most of the crap that gets erected in 40 days (I live in one) would never be considered well-insulated and capable of the savings one could achieve with a heat pump.

For every single person who loves a heat pump, there are 20 others who hate the damn things.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: puJbc ()
Date: November 08, 2013 10:54PM

i know. be a damn gov worker. though a friend in gov (which you funneled gov moeny to) you'll get lined up with a sweet write off and even payment for energy saving upgrade to (your) home

if i catch you i'll arrest you for deceiving others in the ammount of more than $2000 which is fraud. but i probably can't.

but if.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: No Contest ()
Date: November 08, 2013 11:10PM

One Mo thing with a gas furnece you will have a conventional AC unit. They can go 3500-7000 for a good size house. I would rather have the two systems. With heat pump or gas or Ac the more you pay the better the efficiency and the lower the fuel bill electric or gas. All in all they have all come a long way in the last 20 years which is why some of the huge new homes can have lower utility bills then some older smaller homes. insulation is a very important item as well as windows. Lots of older FX houses built in the 60's still have single pane glass windows. Plastic film over them inside can help insulate them in coldest weather with less heat loss and lots goes out thru the windows.

Oil heat is a smoky heat nowhere as clean as gas and expensive also. dont even go there.. its great if your out in the country with few other options and think about it many homes even today are not in a natural gas avialable area

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: gas victim ()
Date: November 09, 2013 06:33AM

I have seen people die because of natural gas. In the 70s there were four houses in Canterbury woods that were blown off the map in the middle of the night while the homeowners slept. Every winter people die from carbon monoxide poisoning as a result of the improper use of gas.
Not only do I use a safe, clean heat pump but I would not even buy a house in a neighborhood that has natural gas piped to it.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Heat Pumps for Dummies ()
Date: November 09, 2013 07:03AM

Stabitha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heat pumps are insufficient Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > Bullshit. The reason you had it installed was
> due
> > to no natural gas in your area. Only ignorant
> > people buy houses with electricty as the only
> > source for heat.
> > Your parents were stupid.
>
> What areas dont have natural gas? You are out of
> what's left of your mind.

Either you are lying about the heat pump your parents had installed or just stupid.
No one would utilize a heat pump if your house has natural gas connection
A lot of developments in Fairfax new County do not have NG due to supply and overbuilding. Not enough gas lines layed during last thirty years.
Stupid,drunk and lying is no way to post on FFXU.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stabitha ()
Date: November 09, 2013 08:44AM

Heat Pumps for Dummies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Either you are lying about the heat pump your
> parents had installed or just stupid.
> No one would utilize a heat pump if your house has
> natural gas connection
> A lot of developments in Fairfax new County do not
> have NG due to supply and overbuilding. Not enough
> gas lines layed during last thirty years.
> Stupid,drunk and lying is no way to post on FFXU.

Who's stupid now?
Attachments:
propane.jpg

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: feeling warmer ()
Date: November 09, 2013 08:51AM

Gas and oil furnaces are filthy and very bad for the environment, they should be banned. A broken down heat pump that is running on emergency heat is 100% efficient and a working heat pump can make that three of four times better, hence the "EER" in SEER. The energy efficiency ratio indicates how much energy is being saved by a heat pump as you are paying the transportation cost of heat from the outside air to the inside air.
With a filthy,disgusting gas furnace you are burning irreplaceable fossil fuels and sending a portion of the heat right up the flue pipe to be wasted.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: November 09, 2013 08:52AM

Oil makes a good deal of sense in a rural area where connections to natural gas lines aren't an option. In this area oil tanks are considered unsightly and would likely negatively affect your property value. Other considerations against oil would be the need to maintain your yard so the truck could access the tank, the possibility of spills and leaks and the fact its not heavily used here meaning oil delivery services might become an issue. Two positives though are that you are not tied to one supplier, and in a doomsday scenario with oil you wouldn't be reliant on the outside world, assuming you'd also bought an oil fired generator.

Heat from natural gas, oil, wood or even the older style electric heaters seems to come out of registers much warmer than the heat from a heat pump. It may not matter to you, but potential home buyers may find this preferable. Natural gas seems to do a better job of heating up a cold house quickly. This makes it more attractive if you turn down the temperature when you are at work, or at night when you are asleep. In more colder weather that we get at least a few days a year, heat pumps struggle. Heat pumps seem to work best in milder weather and when you keep the temperature constant.

Ideally I'd suggest dual fuel. However you probably wouldn't recoup the cost of installation.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: unfairfax ()
Date: November 09, 2013 09:29AM

My trusty Rudd natural gas heater has kept me and my family toasty these past 20 years without a hitch. Just an annual service check/cleaning the vents ($120) and we're WONDERFUL. I change my air filters bi-monthly and vaccum/409 the walls frequently to keep dust down in the house. We also have a carrier AC which works PERFECTLY these past 10 years, no problems EVER.

+1 for natural gas heat! Lucky my area of ffx has it :)

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Different orifices. ()
Date: November 09, 2013 09:36AM

Stabitha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heat Pumps for Dummies Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Either you are lying about the heat pump your
> > parents had installed or just stupid.
> > No one would utilize a heat pump if your house
> has
> > natural gas connection
> > A lot of developments in Fairfax new County do
> not
> > have NG due to supply and overbuilding. Not
> enough
> > gas lines layed during last thirty years.
> > Stupid,drunk and lying is no way to post on
> FFXU.
>
> Who's stupid now?

Nice Propane tanks. Not used for natural gas.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: If you don't see it,it's magic! ()
Date: November 09, 2013 09:49AM

feeling warmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gas and oil furnaces are filthy and very bad for
> the environment, they should be banned. A broken
> down heat pump that is running on emergency heat
> is 100% efficient and a working heat pump can make
> that three of four times better, hence the "EER"
> in SEER. The energy efficiency ratio indicates how
> much energy is being saved by a heat pump as you
> are paying the transportation cost of heat from
> the outside air to the inside air.
> With a filthy,disgusting gas furnace you are
> burning irreplaceable fossil fuels and sending a
> portion of the heat right up the flue pipe to be
> wasted.

I SEAR my steaks with coal and gas


And what source of energy is used to power the electric provider plants?
a. Coal
b. natural gas
c. Nuclear
d. You are ignorant
d.1 sub. All of the above.
Don't forget to pay your electric bill.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Gas Is The Way To Go ()
Date: November 09, 2013 11:21AM

>Gas and oil furnaces are filthy and very bad for the environment, they should be banned.

Another useless Democrat who wants the gubment to control us. Leave my heat alone asshole.

They want to bankrupt us all so we have to depend on the gubment for support and "thankfully" vote for for Democrats who supply us with the welfare.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: EPRI ()
Date: November 09, 2013 11:59AM

feeling warmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gas and oil furnaces are filthy and very bad for
> the environment, they should be banned. A broken
> down heat pump that is running on emergency heat
> is 100% efficient and a working heat pump can make
> that three of four times better, hence the "EER"
> in SEER. The energy efficiency ratio indicates how
> much energy is being saved by a heat pump as you
> are paying the transportation cost of heat from
> the outside air to the inside air.
> With a filthy,disgusting gas furnace you are
> burning irreplaceable fossil fuels and sending a
> portion of the heat right up the flue pipe to be
> wasted.


No, they are not "100% efficient," and, if they were, obviously, you could not make that 3X or 4X better. I understand what you're attempting to say but it appears that you're just parroting what you've read somewhere and don't really understand it.

Electric power itself as delivered to a house is not "100% efficient." You have the same losses upon generation and there are significant transmission and direct use losses. By the time power hits your "100% efficient" heat pump, the losses have already happened. All you've done is shift where.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: wowzers! ()
Date: November 09, 2013 01:56PM

EPRI Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> feeling warmer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gas and oil furnaces are filthy and very bad
> for
> > the environment, they should be banned. A
> broken
> > down heat pump that is running on emergency
> heat
> > is 100% efficient and a working heat pump can
> make
> > that three of four times better, hence the
> "EER"
> > in SEER. The energy efficiency ratio indicates
> how
> > much energy is being saved by a heat pump as
> you
> > are paying the transportation cost of heat from
> > the outside air to the inside air.
> > With a filthy,disgusting gas furnace you are
> > burning irreplaceable fossil fuels and sending
> a
> > portion of the heat right up the flue pipe to
> be
> > wasted.
>
>
> No, they are not "100% efficient," and, if they
> were, obviously, you could not make that 3X or 4X
> better. I understand what you're attempting to
> say but it appears that you're just parroting what
> you've read somewhere and don't really understand
> it.
>
> Electric power itself as delivered to a house is
> not "100% efficient." You have the same losses
> upon generation and there are significant
> transmission and direct use losses. By the time
> power hits your "100% efficient" heat pump, the
> losses have already happened. All you've done is
> shift where.


Your ignorance is astounding EPRI!
Those of us that paid attention in physics class in high school know that 1 kilowatt (kW) = 3,412.14 btu per hour (btu/h) and yes all electric resistance heat is 100% efficient as far as the end user is concerned. You buy a kilowatt from the power company and you get 3412 btu/h period dot.

You take that same amount of electric power and put it into a heat pump and that machine can in some cases move 10,000 btus from the outside air and release it into the air stream inside your home. You are simply using some energy to transfer some of the countless trillions of btus that are around us everywhere.

Hey I have a gas furnace in one of my homes and it does not bother me at all. I love it when I see someone driving a hybrid that has Greenpeace and Al Gore stickers on the back bumper and I see them living in a house with a gas furnace and water heater. I shake my head and laugh.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: EPRI ()
Date: November 09, 2013 03:55PM

wowzers! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Your ignorance is astounding EPRI!
> Those of us that paid attention in physics class
> in high school know that 1 kilowatt (kW) =
> 3,412.14 btu per hour (btu/h) and yes all electric
> resistance heat is 100% efficient as far as the
> end user is concerned.
You buy a kilowatt from the
> power company and you get 3412 btu/h period dot.


And some of us actually understood things well enough to be able to apply the theoretical calculations to practical applications beyond formula. As I said, I understood what you (or they) were attempting to say. Yes, that's the case at the point of conversion of electricity to heat at the resistive element.

But that was not the basis for the argument presented re "filthy fossil fuels" and not the case for the full practical model and fuel cycle, as even you appear to appreciate because you've now tried to slip in the condition of "at the end point." That electricity does not somehow magically appear at the heating element. And if you want to return to theory, the losses are in fact greater for burning a unit of gas to create electricity, transmitting it, and then converting to heat again versus burning that same unit of gas directly to generate heat at a burner (admittedly ignoring whatever transmission losses there may be in making the same kind of nonsense argument).

The only case where the comparison you/they are trying to make works is only in comparing the operating costs for two systems given the relative cost for various fuel options. And you/they didn't even get the metric right since as far as heating goes you'd be looking at HSPF not SEER.


>
> You take that same amount of electric power and
> put it into a heat pump and that machine can in
> some cases move 10,000 btus from the outside air
> and release it into the air stream inside your
> home. You are simply using some energy to transfer
> some of the countless trillions of btus that are
> around us everywhere.


Which involves running the compressor which is not resistive and not "100% efficient." As simple proof of that, go out and put your hand on the compressor while running. You/they are jumping between various measures of electrical, thermal, and heating efficiency. Obviously a heat pump is more efficient than a gas burner at capturing latent heat from the air (duh) and they may be able to move lots of heat under certain conditions. They also may not. Which is precisely why they do not work well at lower temperatures. You can run it and run it, (burning electric power the whole time and losing efficiency), but you'll not practically capture enough heat to efficiently heat a given space.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Tom_Mason ()
Date: November 09, 2013 04:20PM

The big problem with heat pumps is that they blow out currents of air at roughly the temp the thermostat is set at. A seventy-two degree current of air may sound warm, but IMHO it's really uncomfortable. So, I'd recommend getting gas heat. Gas furnaces generate air currents that are typivcally 30 or more degrees higher and both the supply and price of gas is likely to remain stable for the foreseeable future.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Gerrymanderer2 ()
Date: November 09, 2013 05:02PM

Nothing beats Gas. There isn't even a comparison.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stabitha ()
Date: November 09, 2013 06:06PM

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing beats Gas. There isn't even a comparison.

You got that right!
Attachments:
boom1.jpg

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Heat Pumps for Dummies II ()
Date: November 09, 2013 06:10PM

EPRI Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wowzers! Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Your ignorance is astounding EPRI!
> > Those of us that paid attention in physics
> class
> > in high school know that 1 kilowatt (kW) =
> > 3,412.14 btu per hour (btu/h) and yes all
> electric
> > resistance heat is 100% efficient as far as
> the
> > end user is concerned.
You buy a kilowatt
> from the
> > power company and you get 3412 btu/h period
> dot.
>
>
> And some of us actually understood things well
> enough to be able to apply the theoretical
> calculations to practical applications beyond
> formula. As I said, I understood what you (or
> they) were attempting to say. Yes, that's the
> case at the point of conversion of electricity to
> heat at the resistive element.
>
> But that was not the basis for the argument
> presented re "filthy fossil fuels" and not the
> case for the full practical model and fuel cycle,
> as even you appear to appreciate because you've
> now tried to slip in the condition of "at the end
> point." That electricity does not somehow
> magically appear at the heating element. And if
> you want to return to theory, the losses are in
> fact greater for burning a unit of gas to create
> electricity, transmitting it, and then converting
> to heat again versus burning that same unit of gas
> directly to generate heat at a burner (admittedly
> ignoring whatever transmission losses there may be
> in making the same kind of nonsense argument).
>
> The only case where the comparison you/they are
> trying to make works is only in comparing the
> operating costs for two systems given the relative
> cost for various fuel options. And you/they
> didn't even get the metric right since as far as
> heating goes you'd be looking at HSPF not SEER.
>
>
>
> >
> > You take that same amount of electric power and
> > put it into a heat pump and that machine can in
> > some cases move 10,000 btus from the outside
> air
> > and release it into the air stream inside your
> > home. You are simply using some energy to
> transfer
> > some of the countless trillions of btus that
> are
> > around us everywhere.
>
>
> Which involves running the compressor which is not
> resistive and not "100% efficient." As simple
> proof of that, go out and put your hand on the
> compressor while running. You/they are jumping
> between various measures of electrical, thermal,
> and heating efficiency. Obviously a heat pump is
> more efficient than a gas burner at capturing
> latent heat from the air (duh) and they may be
> able to move lots of heat under certain
> conditions. They also may not. Which is
> precisely why they do not work well at lower
> temperatures. You can run it and run it, (burning
> electric power the whole time and losing
> efficiency), but you'll not practically capture
> enough heat to efficiently heat a given space.

Compressors never run at rated amperage. Adjusting the charge on optimum days will only produce 88-92% efficiency. Variables on supply voltage can effect performance greatly. In general heat pumps (residential hvac packages) ain't worth a damn above the 28th parallel.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stabitha. ()
Date: November 09, 2013 06:30PM

Living in the basement I really like heat pumps a lot more. When mom had the Furnace down here it got so loud since I was only 10 feet away from the furnace. Now its quit down here, no more loud flames.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stabitha ()
Date: November 09, 2013 06:44PM

"Now it's quit"

What the hell does that mean?

And oh yeah we never noticed the (.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2013 06:44PM by Stabitha.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: The Two Stabithas ()
Date: November 09, 2013 06:52PM

Stabitha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Now it's quit"
>
> What the hell does that mean?
>
> And oh yeah we never noticed the (.)

Two to many. Must be from the carbon monoxide.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Stabitha. ()
Date: November 09, 2013 07:06PM

Quiet* Sorry for the type guys, it's been a while since Ive been to NVCC. NVCC is just not for me, my mom is cool with me staying in the basement so I just hang out down here all day no need for all that diploma crap.


I like to edit my posts often, even though they are short sorry about that too.

I will go back to NVCC eventually, once I get my toyota pusing 120+whp I will re enroll. I have a TRD sticker coming for the back window, I cant wait to apply it.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: bottom line ()
Date: November 09, 2013 07:24PM

Bottom line is that heat pumps blow the doors of any gas or oil furnace when it comes to efficiency. It is no contest, not even close.
Many people do not understand the difference between cost and efficiency.

Yes Al Gore would force us all to use heat pumps and only heat pumps but there are other concerns like comfort and cost. And yes it is true that there is a slightly higher risk of explosion or carbon monoxide poisoning with gas but that risk is very small.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Alans Gores ()
Date: November 10, 2013 04:41PM

Time to begin the phaseout of gas and oil furnaces. If you have not switched to a heat pump by 2019 the military will take possession of your house while government contractors change your heating system. The cost of this will be transfered out of your bank accounts and your credit rating will be shot to hell.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: some dude ()
Date: November 20, 2013 08:03PM

I'm in Springfield as well. It's been 3 years with a relatively high efficiency heat pump (17 SEER/8.7 HSPF) with an 80% gas furnace backup. Assuming I did my math right, it's cheaper to run the HP as the temp drops outside until it can't keep up. I haven't tried to find that point yet, but at 25 outside the HP still doesn't run constantly.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: mister btu ()
Date: November 20, 2013 08:32PM

Heat pumps are the only way to go in northern Virginia. I had the gas line to my house capped off at the street 22 years ago.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Greybeard ()
Date: November 20, 2013 08:49PM

mister btu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heat pumps are the only way to go in northern
> Virginia. I had the gas line to my house capped
> off at the street 22 years ago.

I guess you don't cook? That's not snide, it's jealousy -- we don't have gas in our neighborhood but I'd *love* to be able to have a gas stove instead of sucky electric.

And yeah, this is topic drift, kinda.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: indoor air quality ()
Date: November 21, 2013 05:14AM

Greybeard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mister btu Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Heat pumps are the only way to go in northern
> > Virginia. I had the gas line to my house capped
> > off at the street 22 years ago.
>
> I guess you don't cook? That's not snide, it's
> jealousy -- we don't have gas in our neighborhood
> but I'd *love* to be able to have a gas stove
> instead of sucky electric.
>
> And yeah, this is topic drift, kinda.


I agree that gas is easier to cook on but gas ranges are extremely foul. A gas range is a un-vented fossil fuel burning appliance inside your home that puts it's byproducts of combustion right into the air you breathe. If you must cook with gas they do make hybrid ranges that have an electric oven and 3 electric burners up top plus one gas burner that can easily burn propane from a bottle outside the house. The hybrid ranges are like the best of both worlds.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: notosmart ()
Date: November 21, 2013 08:20AM

indoor air quality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Greybeard Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > mister btu Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Heat pumps are the only way to go in northern
> > > Virginia. I had the gas line to my house
> capped
> > > off at the street 22 years ago.
> >
> > I guess you don't cook? That's not snide, it's
> > jealousy -- we don't have gas in our
> neighborhood
> > but I'd *love* to be able to have a gas stove
> > instead of sucky electric.
> >
> > And yeah, this is topic drift, kinda.
>
>
> I agree that gas is easier to cook on but gas
> ranges are extremely foul. A gas range is a
> un-vented fossil fuel burning appliance inside
> your home that puts it's byproducts of combustion
> right into the air you breathe. If you must cook
> with gas they do make hybrid ranges that have an
> electric oven and 3 electric burners up top plus
> one gas burner that can easily burn propane from a
> bottle outside the house. The hybrid ranges are
> like the best of both worlds.


Natural Gas exhaust is mostly Co2 and H2o with trace of other. Basically it is the same components that a humans exhale.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: OH the ignorance! ()
Date: December 22, 2013 07:22AM

"Natural Gas exhaust is mostly Co2 and H2o with trace of other. Basically it is the same components that a humans exhale."


If you believe that why don't you go ahead and pull the flue pipe loose from your gas furnace and let it vent into the house. That would save you money on energy costs. It would save you on groceries too because dead people have no need for groceries.

Actually your first sentence is true but it is the particulate Matter that will hurt you. The PM causes some people to develop asthma and breathing difficulties. Having a gas range in a modern home is very bad indeed.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: zimm ()
Date: December 22, 2013 08:03AM

I'll replace my gas furnace….with a newer gas furnace when the time comes. It's a high efficiency version that uses PVC pipe for the air intake and exhaust- no flue out the roof, which is wasted heat.

The best thing you can do is poke your head in the attic and see how deep the insulation is. My house was built in '76 and had not enough cellulose isolation to cover the bottom of the rafters (3-4"). I spent $1500 and had 18" blown in and wow what a difference. My A/C ran less than 1/2 the time it did before. I was one of the last houses in the neighborhood with snow on the roof (good indicator of heat loss when comparing houses next to each other). The access hatches had no insulation- the installer said that's like leaving a window open! I had a thick batt laid over the hatches and that helped too.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: heating expert ()
Date: December 22, 2013 08:21AM

zimm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll replace my gas furnace….with a newer gas
> furnace when the time comes. It's a high
> efficiency version that uses PVC pipe for the air
> intake and exhaust- no flue out the roof, which is
> wasted heat.
>
> The best thing you can do is poke your head in the
> attic and see how deep the insulation is. My
> house was built in '76 and had not enough
> cellulose isolation to cover the bottom of the
> rafters (3-4"). I spent $1500 and had 18" blown
> in and wow what a difference. My A/C ran less
> than 1/2 the time it did before. I was one of the
> last houses in the neighborhood with snow on the
> roof (good indicator of heat loss when comparing
> houses next to each other). The access hatches
> had no insulation- the installer said that's like
> leaving a window open! I had a thick batt laid
> over the hatches and that helped too.


The 90+ gas furnaces that vent with PVC pipe are a waste and a poor choice for this area. They cannot get the run time to get anywhere close to the rated efficiency except in extremely cold weather. They should be used only when a traditional flue is not available.
The facts do not stop most of the heating company salesmen from showing the efficiency ratings to the clueless homeowners and selling them a more expensive and less reliable 90+ furnace.
Zimm has it right when it comes to insulation. The best furnace in the world is not going to help when the heat is leaking out of your home quickly. Insulation has a one time cost that pays back year after year.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: shot to hell ()
Date: December 22, 2013 08:23AM

Alans Gores Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Time to begin the phaseout of gas and oil
> furnaces. If you have not switched to a heat pump
> by 2019 the military will take possession of your
> house while government contractors change your
> heating system. The cost of this will be
> transfered out of your bank accounts and your
> credit rating will be shot to hell.


LOL!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Big Ass Heat Pump ()
Date: December 22, 2013 08:50AM

The time to buy is now. 2013 will mark the last year for energy credits. If you buy a 14 SEER or above efficiency unit, you will get a $300 credit. This has to be done by 12/31/2013 in order to get the credit.

I bought a big-ass replacement to my current heat pump. It's just going to be used as my supplemental heat system though. The price was right and there's nothing wrong with free government money to boot!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: December 22, 2013 01:43PM

indoor air quality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree that gas is easier to cook on but gas
> ranges are extremely foul. A gas range is a
> un-vented fossil fuel burning appliance inside
> your home that puts it's byproducts of combustion
> right into the air you breathe.

Whatever pollutants gas range tops introduce into the household pale in comparison to the pollutants introduced by cooking on the stove generally. In many non-smoking households cooking is the primary producer of aerosole. Studies have shown cooking increases the concentrations of organic carbon and a number of other particles. This happens even when using electric range tops. There are a number of studies on this floating around the internet.

With cooking as with heating personal preference still plays an important role.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: abelard ()
Date: December 24, 2013 12:41AM

Heat pumps are pretty great, and I don't know what folks are talking about when they call them 'cold pumps'. Mine keeps my house toasty but it takes time, so I installed a clever (possibly too clever) new thermostat. I set it for 'maximum savings' so it can take an hour or two to warm the place up after a cool night but it does so while I'm still warm in bed.

Another thing to consider, new resident - if you have a heat pump and the electricity goes out, you have no heat at all. Last winter we lost power for a couple of hours, long enough to feel the temperature drop as the heat seeped out of the walls. Thankfully this doesn't happen much in my area - some parts of Fairfax lost power for days and days. I looked into getting a backup generator just in case, only to find that heat pumps use a shitload of amps, especially when it's cold enough to require using the auxiliary heating elements. A generator large enough to heat my house would have cost about the same as a new car, and pretty good car at that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2013 12:42AM by abelard.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: hybrid 22 ()
Date: December 24, 2013 08:35AM

If a home has enough power to it to allow the use of a heat pump then it needs to be required by law to do so. Gas and oil furnaces are terrible for the environment.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: ffx steve ()
Date: December 25, 2013 09:28AM

Anyone touting the efficiency of heat pumps just bought the salesmen's pitch. Heat pumps are inferior to natural gas and it has nothing to do with efficiency. What makes the best heater is that it gets the home to the desired temperature for a lower cost. Heat pumps fail on both accounts. Efficiency basically means there is little energy loss between input and output. The problem with heat pumps in the lack of input. Heat pumps draw energy out of the external air, but the colder it is outside the less energy there is to draw. Even if the heat pump was 100 percent efficient, when the temps are below freezing there just isn't enough energy in the air to convert into the desired internal room temperature without running the heat pump for extended periods. Running your efficient heat pump for a long time in order to get the room to a comfortable temperature will cost a lot more in electricity than your "inefficient" gas furnace.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: your teacher ()
Date: December 25, 2013 10:43AM

ffx steve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone touting the efficiency of heat pumps just
> bought the salesmen's pitch. Heat pumps are
> inferior to natural gas and it has nothing to do
> with efficiency. What makes the best heater is
> that it gets the home to the desired temperature
> for a lower cost. Heat pumps fail on both
> accounts. Efficiency basically means there is
> little energy loss between input and output. The
> problem with heat pumps in the lack of input. Heat
> pumps draw energy out of the external air, but the
> colder it is outside the less energy there is to
> draw. Even if the heat pump was 100 percent
> efficient, when the temps are below freezing there
> just isn't enough energy in the air to convert
> into the desired internal room temperature without
> running the heat pump for extended periods.
> Running your efficient heat pump for a long time
> in order to get the room to a comfortable
> temperature will cost a lot more in electricity
> than your "inefficient" gas furnace.


Steve buddy, You have just proven beyond a shadow of a dobut that you have no idea what you are talking about.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Greybeard ()
Date: December 25, 2013 11:20AM

your teacher Wrote:
> Steve buddy, You have just proven beyond a shadow
> of a dobut that you have no idea what you are
> talking about.

+1

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: 6.8 billion and you care? ()
Date: December 25, 2013 11:25AM

hybrid 22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a home has enough power to it to allow the use
> of a heat pump then it needs to be required by law
> to do so. Gas and oil furnaces are terrible for
> the environment.

Fuck the environment.
Merry Christmas.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: abelard ()
Date: December 27, 2013 12:32PM

> Running your efficient heat pump for a long time
> in order to get the room to a comfortable
> temperature will cost a lot more in electricity
> than your "inefficient" gas furnace.

I think the only way this makes sense is that your gas furnace doesn't use any electricity at all (just gas), so it beats an electric appliance hands down. It does, however, use gas.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Alan G ()
Date: December 28, 2013 05:08AM

GAS AND OIL FURNACES MUST BE BANNED, COAL AND WOOD AS WELL!!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Final Answer ()
Date: December 28, 2013 08:32AM

Choose gas heat if you enjoy warmth. Choose heatpump if you like to wear a couple sweaters around the house.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: homeowner27 ()
Date: December 28, 2013 10:57AM

Final Answer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Choose gas heat if you enjoy warmth. Choose
> heatpump if you like to wear a couple sweaters
> around the house.


How do you figure that? A heat pump thermostat set at 72 degrees is exactly the same temperature as a gas thermostat at 72 degrees. Part of my home is heated with gas and another part is heated with a heat pump and they are both quite comfortable. I did have to add a humidifier to the gas system because it was too dry.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: X tree ()
Date: December 28, 2013 11:12AM

Just leave up your Christmas tree
That will heat up the whole house

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: December 28, 2013 01:51PM

Alan G Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GAS AND OIL FURNACES MUST BE BANNED, COAL AND WOOD
> AS WELL!!


If you are that into saving the environment why not turn your thermostat down 45 degrees? A healthy person adequately clothed could easily survive in that temperature and even if you have a heat pump it would save fossil fuels.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: December 28, 2013 02:11PM

homeowner27 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you figure that? A heat pump thermostat set
> at 72 degrees is exactly the same temperature as a
> gas thermostat at 72 degrees.

There are different factors which determine temperature comfort. One is the actual background temperature. In a home with a well thought out vent system and adequate insulation there may not be much difference between gas and a heat pump on this. Where the vent system or insulation is not adequate the system which puts out the higher temperature heat will likely have an advantage.

However in addition to the background temperature there is also a perceived temperature based on air flow or radiating heat. This is where systems like gas, wood burning stoves, steam and even older style electrics have an advantage. Because the temperature blowing or radiating out is higher than a heat pump it gives the "feeling" of making things warmer than they are. Perhaps this is just be cause we have been conditioned by generations who were heated by wood fires. In any event feeling this warmth causes the body to assume that overall the room is warmer.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: FFX Resident ()
Date: December 28, 2013 02:32PM

We had a heat pump installed in 2011. It's heating the house much better than the previous one. Any opinions on annual HVAC service contracts?

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Alan G ()
Date: December 28, 2013 04:20PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alan G Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > GAS AND OIL FURNACES MUST BE BANNED, COAL AND
> WOOD
> > AS WELL!!
>
>
> If you are that into saving the environment why
> not turn your thermostat down 45 degrees? A
> healthy person adequately clothed could easily
> survive in that temperature and even if you have a
> heat pump it would save fossil fuels.


That is an outstanding idea! Maybe just a little warmer than that though. I plan to roll out the "52 degrees is he new 72 degrees campaign". Our government could start requiring that all thermostats sold and used in this country will go no higher than 60 degrees for heat and no lower than 79 degrees for cooling. We would give homeowners 3 years to comply with the new thermostat regulations. After that we would have federal, state and local law enforcement obtain a warrant to enter the homes that have not replaced their thermostats. We can have government contractors replace the thermostats and put a lien on the property to cover the cost. The thermostats would also link up to the cell phone network so the temperature can be monitored by the dept. of energy and the EPA.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Greybeard ()
Date: December 28, 2013 08:15PM

FFX Resident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We had a heat pump installed in 2011. It's
> heating the house much better than the previous
> one. Any opinions on annual HVAC service
> contracts?

My $0.02: For a 2-year-old system, the minimal contract (2 checks/year) makes sense, assuming you were going to do the 2 checks anyway. If you do have a problem, the contract usually gets you higher in their queue. For an older system, the high-end, all-parts all-labor (well, almost all parts) contracts make sense. We just replaced a 20-year-old heat pump a couple of months ago. We'd had the high-end contract for the last 4 or 5 years, and it paid for itself, both in actual $ savings and in peace of mind. That unit didn't owe us anything after all this time, and was showing it, with a series of small, stupid problems. At ~$200 apiece, those would have cost a lot more without the contract.

And here's where I get flamed for being a shill: we were using Ace Air Conditioning. Nice folks. There are lots of good HVAC companies out there; also a few that aren't so good. Angie's List is a good reference. We aren't using Ace with the new unit because they didn't carry the brand we wanted; went with Mann-In instead. They seem good; the install was painless. Of course it's a bit early to tell what their actual service will be like!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: HUKdp ()
Date: January 07, 2014 02:20PM

ffx steve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone touting the efficiency of heat pumps just
> bought the salesmen's pitch. Heat pumps are
> inferior to natural gas and it has nothing to do
> with efficiency. What makes the best heater is
> that it gets the home to the desired temperature
> for a lower cost. Heat pumps fail on both
> accounts. Efficiency basically means there is
> little energy loss between input and output. The
> problem with heat pumps in the lack of input. Heat
> pumps draw energy out of the external air, but the
> colder it is outside the less energy there is to
> draw. Even if the heat pump was 100 percent
> efficient, when the temps are below freezing there
> just isn't enough energy in the air to convert
> into the desired internal room temperature without
> running the heat pump for extended periods.
> Running your efficient heat pump for a long time
> in order to get the room to a comfortable
> temperature will cost a lot more in electricity
> than your "inefficient" gas furnace.


ffx steve, You are VERY correct.

Those HP folks are freezing now AND going to have a big shock when they get their power bill next month.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: abelard ()
Date: January 13, 2014 12:28AM

Update: might be that my system is around 10 years old (maybe they've gotten better) but my heat pump could barely keep up when the temperature got near 0 F. My aux heat stayed on constantly and it barely got above 66, and my house is pretty well insulated. Unusually cold weather it is true, but it did make me wish I had a wood stove to back fire up.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: gas furnaces FTW ()
Date: January 13, 2014 12:35AM

abelard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Update: might be that my system is around 10 years
> old (maybe they've gotten better) but my heat pump
> could barely keep up when the temperature got near
> 0 F. My aux heat stayed on constantly and it
> barely got above 66, and my house is pretty well
> insulated. Unusually cold weather it is true, but
> it did make me wish I had a wood stove to back
> fire up.

I have a newer heat pump and my house only got up to about 68, I had it set at 72.
Now that it's in the 30's its works fine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: design engineer ()
Date: January 13, 2014 04:51AM

HUKdp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ffx steve Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Anyone touting the efficiency of heat pumps
> just
> > bought the salesmen's pitch. Heat pumps are
> > inferior to natural gas and it has nothing to
> do
> > with efficiency. What makes the best heater is
> > that it gets the home to the desired
> temperature
> > for a lower cost. Heat pumps fail on both
> > accounts. Efficiency basically means there is
> > little energy loss between input and output.
> The
> > problem with heat pumps in the lack of input.
> Heat
> > pumps draw energy out of the external air, but
> the
> > colder it is outside the less energy there is
> to
> > draw. Even if the heat pump was 100 percent
> > efficient, when the temps are below freezing
> there
> > just isn't enough energy in the air to convert
> > into the desired internal room temperature
> without
> > running the heat pump for extended periods.
> > Running your efficient heat pump for a long
> time
> > in order to get the room to a comfortable
> > temperature will cost a lot more in electricity
> > than your "inefficient" gas furnace.
>
>
> ffx steve, You are VERY correct.
>
> Those HP folks are freezing now AND going to have
> a big shock when they get their power bill next
> month.


People often confuse efficiency with cost and vice versa. The reality of the situation is that a gas or oil furnace cannot come anywhere close to a heat pump in efficiency. There really does need to be an incentive to get homeowners to get rid of those nasty gas, oil and wood burning appliances. I would never use anything but a heat pump in my own home and my properly sized, well maintained heat pump has kept me perfectly comfortable for 9 years and counting.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Layton Heete ()
Date: January 24, 2014 04:55PM

So how are those "+100 efficient" heat pumps workin' for ya lately?

lol

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: AAA Contracting ()
Date: January 24, 2014 05:00PM

This thread was started in November. I suspect (hope) that by now he's already made a decision and installed it.

But for my 2 cents go with a wood stove. It's easy and is great way to control your carbon footprint.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Natural Gas ()
Date: January 24, 2014 05:23PM

Natural gas if you can get it in your neighborhood.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Who's laughing now ()
Date: January 24, 2014 06:28PM

Idiots with heat pumps are freezing their asses off now. Toasty warm here with gas heat!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: G ()
Date: January 24, 2014 09:57PM

anybody in this thread bother to measure their discharge temp at the air registers? I am getting a nice cozy 108-110°F... Trane XV80. Fuck heat pumps



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2014 10:00PM by G.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Frostbitten ()
Date: January 25, 2014 01:21AM

Where's the heat in my heat pump?
I want a refund. My electric meter acts like it's on autobahn.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Natural Gas ()
Date: January 25, 2014 08:07AM

Old Man Winter knows how to shut up those heat pump fanboys!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Dumb is as dumb freezes. ()
Date: January 25, 2014 08:25AM

People with heat pumps brag about how great and efficient the units are.
In reality they are just overcompensating for the stupidly of purchasing a house with a heat pump.
Clearing the the snow around the unit might help.....lol

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: energy freak2.0 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 08:34AM

Dumb is as dumb freezes. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People with heat pumps brag about how great and
> efficient the units are.
> In reality they are just overcompensating for the
> stupidly of purchasing a house with a heat pump.
> Clearing the the snow around the unit might
> help.....lol


My inverter technology heat pump is keeping my home a nice warm 73 degrees. Because heat pumps don't scorch the air with high temperatures like those awful gas furnaces do my indoor air does not get dry and I very rarely use a humidifier. I will admit that I had to brush the snow off the outdoor unit the other day. These new heat pumps can extract heat from the outdoor air as low as 20 degrees below zero.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Freqs s of Technology ()
Date: January 25, 2014 09:39AM

energy freak2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dumb is as dumb freezes. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > People with heat pumps brag about how great and
> > efficient the units are.
> > In reality they are just overcompensating for
> the
> > stupidly of purchasing a house with a heat pump.
>
> > Clearing the the snow around the unit might
> > help.....lol
>
>
> My inverter technology heat pump is keeping my
> home a nice warm 73 degrees. Because heat pumps
> don't scorch the air with high temperatures like
> those awful gas furnaces do my indoor air does not
> get dry and I very rarely use a humidifier. I will
> admit that I had to brush the snow off the outdoor
> unit the other day. These new heat pumps can
> extract heat from the outdoor air as low as 20
> degrees below zero.


My inverter technology? We call 'em VFDs or freq drives in the field.
Hope you got a heater on the control panel. The unit gets kinda finicky when it gets cold. Those little electron thingies don't like the damp chilly air.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: energy freak2.0 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 12:07PM

Freqs s of Technology Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> energy freak2.0 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dumb is as dumb freezes. Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > People with heat pumps brag about how great
> and
> > > efficient the units are.
> > > In reality they are just overcompensating for
> > the
> > > stupidly of purchasing a house with a heat
> pump.
> >
> > > Clearing the the snow around the unit might
> > > help.....lol
> >
> >
> > My inverter technology heat pump is keeping my
> > home a nice warm 73 degrees. Because heat pumps
> > don't scorch the air with high temperatures
> like
> > those awful gas furnaces do my indoor air does
> not
> > get dry and I very rarely use a humidifier. I
> will
> > admit that I had to brush the snow off the
> outdoor
> > unit the other day. These new heat pumps can
> > extract heat from the outdoor air as low as 20
> > degrees below zero.
>
>
> My inverter technology? We call 'em VFDs or freq
> drives in the field.
> Hope you got a heater on the control panel. The
> unit gets kinda finicky when it gets cold. Those
> little electron thingies don't like the damp
> chilly air.


No heater required on these little beauty's from Mitsubishi. They work every time, they give till it hertz! lol!

In all seriousness there needs to be a movement to tax people who are stupid enough to burn gas, oil, wood or coal in their homes. If they want to continue to destroy the environment that the rest of us have to live in then they should have to pay out the ass.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: nUPeV ()
Date: January 25, 2014 09:17PM

>who are stupid enough to burn gas, oil, wood or coal in their homes

Until electricity is generated from something other than basically coal or natural gas this statement is silly. There is a 7% loss in transmission lines. So with a modern gas furnace, you are better off burning the gas directly.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Basic Electricity ()
Date: January 26, 2014 01:41AM

Dipshit libturds think electricity is generated by fairies. It would never occur to them that most is from coal-fired power plants. Moron heatpump fanboys lose again!

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: energy freak2.0 ()
Date: January 26, 2014 07:02AM

nUPeV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >who are stupid enough to burn gas, oil, wood or
> coal in their homes
>
> Until electricity is generated from something
> other than basically coal or natural gas this
> statement is silly. There is a 7% loss in
> transmission lines. So with a modern gas furnace,
> you are better off burning the gas directly.


Come on now Son, you might want to do a little more research. We all know that most of our power is generated by fossil fuel combustion. That is exactly why we should be using heat pumps. A heat pump uses some power to extract heat from the outdoor air and move it inside your home. There is an unlimited amount of heat around us everywhere so why not round some of it up and bring it inside.
Someone who heats their home with natural gas is going to burn the fuel and send 8 to 20 percent of that energy out the flue as total waste. That is a foul and disgusting way to heat your home and we need to put laws in place to stop it.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Who cares? ()
Date: January 26, 2014 10:49AM

With the human population around 6.7 billion does it matter? Either way water,air will be in short supply for your children. Heat pumps or gas furnances discussions are stupid.
Why not a discussion on transportation? Or world birth control?
Accept the fact or not,your future generation is fucked.
Remenber you will be using resources to respond.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Hate the Planet ()
Date: January 27, 2014 09:36AM

Use a heat pump if you hate the planet and like to shiver. Heat pumps use electricity generated by coal power plants, which typically operate at efficiencies of 30-35%, not counting transmission loss. Gas furnaces are double or triple this efficiency. Only a shill heat pump salesman or braindead zombie would recommend a heat pump over gas furnace.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Hu3hY ()
Date: January 27, 2014 11:46AM

Next door neighbor spent $10k last spring on a very nice dual stage heat pump to replace his oil furnace/aircon.

He's been running on AUX heat for the last 2 weeks and is expecing $1k+ power bill this month.

I have a simlar house and still have my oil furnace, but I installed an EPA certified wood stove. (yeah, it can be tedious to feed the stove, but it's been worth it)

His house is in the low 60's. Mine is in the upper 70's and that's just w/ wood. The oil only kicks on if we go out of town for a couple of days.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: January 27, 2014 12:45PM

energy freak2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In all seriousness there needs to be a movement to
> tax people who are stupid enough to burn gas, oil,
> wood or coal in their homes. If they want to
> continue to destroy the environment that the rest
> of us have to live in then they should have to pay
> out the ass.

Few things are worse than a zealot.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: January 27, 2014 12:49PM

nUPeV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Until electricity is generated from something
> other than basically coal or natural gas this
> statement is silly.

Electricity is generated from sources other than burning coal and natural gas. We also have significant amounts of nuclear and hydro generated electricity and smaller but growing amounts of solar and wind generated power. However each of these methods has some form of negative environmental impact.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Sparkyy ()
Date: January 27, 2014 01:42PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Electricity is generated from sources other than
> burning coal and natural gas. We also have
> significant amounts of nuclear and hydro generated
> electricity and smaller but growing amounts of
> solar and wind generated power.

Beyond nuclear the latter are trivial other than in some very specific cases. And a lot of the hydro actually is pumped hydro which is net negative in terms of consumption (i.e., consumes more than it produces but used for peaking capacity, e.g., Bath County, Smith Mountain).

Look at the EIA stats for electricity generation by source.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: Sparkyy ()
Date: January 27, 2014 01:45PM

energy freak2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Someone who heats their home with natural gas is
> going to burn the fuel and send 8 to 20 percent of
> that energy out the flue as total waste. That is a
> foul and disgusting way to heat your home and we
> need to put laws in place to stop it.


And what do you think happens when burning at a generation plant and during transmission?

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: dHJDc ()
Date: January 28, 2014 02:26PM


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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: 9XevV ()
Date: January 28, 2014 02:27PM

oh and you can call my firewood renewable :-)

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: aging debbie does dallas fan ()
Date: January 28, 2014 06:43PM

CHART ABOVE

your full of crap. airconditioning in the south check into that.

heating is not the bigger part at all.

and the chart fails to show that gov and business and esp facotry use more of the fuel

who told you it is a chart for homes? and who told you it isn't obama's fiends in dc lying to justify loans ?

don't beleive a word they say. they keep stealing.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: energy freak2.0 ()
Date: January 29, 2014 05:02AM

Sparkyy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> energy freak2.0 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Someone who heats their home with natural gas
> is
> > going to burn the fuel and send 8 to 20 percent
> of
> > that energy out the flue as total waste. That is
> a
> > foul and disgusting way to heat your home and
> we
> > need to put laws in place to stop it.
>
>
> And what do you think happens when burning at a
> generation plant and during transmission?


Yes, Sparkyy it is true that power is lost in transmission and there is waste at the generation plants but you are missing the whole point. I am sure that you understand that one KW of electric power equals 3412 btu's right? So you take that same amount of energy and put it into a heat pump and you get four or five times that much heat added to your home. This is where heat pumps create huge benefits for us all. With a heat pump you are heating your home with pollution free heat that is around us everywhere plus the heat of compression.

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Re: best way to heat your home in fairfax? gas oil or heat pump?
Posted by: ud6uy ()
Date: January 29, 2014 07:56AM

> With a heat pump you are heating your home with pollution free heat that is around us everywhere plus the heat of compression

You are just moving the heat around (and creating additional heat due to the compression). The heat leaks back out of your house into the environment. What to be green? Insulate your fucking house.

>four or five times that much heat added to your home

Not in this area. 2-3 I think last time I checked.

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