Read up Virginia residents

http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/november-25-2008/virginia-commission-indicates-high-immig.html

Given the economic situation, the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and healthcare becoming well-nigh unaffordable, it seems rather odd to fixate on immigration as our greatest challenge.

Oh really? You don't think illegal immigration affects your health care, economic situation or general security? What are you fixating on these days? Are you proposing that we should just let VA quietly adopt these proposals? Did you read the proposals?

Did the 'hard line' our state take in the past work out?

What hard line did the state of VA ever take? Prince William and Manassas are trying to deal with it and have had some pretty good results .... the illegal immigrants are all moving to Fairfax County. Yeah!

It amazes me that those who complain about illegal immigrants also bitch about the cost of living. Do you understand, if it wasn't for illegal immigrants the cost of living would be through the roof. Where as you can now pay an illegal immigrant cheap labor (no benefits) to get dirty jobs done, you would pay 5 - 10 times more to pay some low wage worker (with benefits) to do.

How many white/black/asian folks would do the following work in this day and age for the price we pay illegal immigrants and not bitch about minimum wage and employer benefits?!?!?

- Wipe cars outside a car wash in the freezing cold?
- Mow lawns in the hot humid summer weather we get?
- Clean bathrooms in commercial and government properties?
- Janitorial Work in general?

Guest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It amazes me that those who complain about illegal
> immigrants also bitch about the cost of living. Do
> you understand, if it wasn't for illegal
> immigrants the cost of living would be through the
> roof. Where as you can now pay an illegal
> immigrant cheap labor (no benefits) to get dirty
> jobs done, you would pay 5 - 10 times more to pay
> some low wage worker (with benefits) to do.
>
> How many white/black/asian folks would do the
> following work in this day and age for the price
> we pay illegal immigrants and not bitch about
> minimum wage and employer benefits?!?!?
>
> - Wipe cars outside a car wash in the freezing
> cold?
> - Mow lawns in the hot humid summer weather we
> get?
> - Clean bathrooms in commercial and government
> properties?
> - Janitorial Work in general?

GO SHIT IN A HAT. We'll DO IT OURSELVES FOR FREE. The days of proletariat working class chumps paying illegals to work around the house is over. The home equity ATM has CLOSED.. which means their ATM IS CLOSED. I mean did you really think a working class schlub making less than 100K in this area were going to be paying for everyday chores like you mentioned forever? It was only around, because the house they owned a note on, was artificially appreciating at 20% a year. Its over for them.. now its gonna be every man out for themselves looking to put bread on the table.. you think they're gonna hire my face or theirs??

We pay for the cheap labor in others ways ... higher taxes to educate their kids, provide their healthcare, foodstamps etc. Also, look at the job that our law enforcement is now faced with. Gangs, thugs and a gazillion unlicensed drivers. Nice.

By the way, most of the jobs you mentioned above are W-2 jobs and employees SHOULD be documented.

there are moments I am so proud to be a Virginian..and this is one of them. Despite all the hate talk, this commission sees the value of people willing to work and pay taxes.

I don't have the time to read all this. So does this mean we can or can't shoot illegals?

Crime was higher in 1980 than today. I suppose in 1980, Fairfax County was 95% illegal aliens?

This "commission" was rigged from the beginning. They of course, found
what Timmy wanted in the first place. Time for a Revolution and throw
all these bums out. I dont give a damn if somebody has to pay American
wages to their maid or not. To Hell with the illegals and the sorry
lot who thinks we cant live without them. BTW, speak to me in ENGLISH!

And all we wanted was E-Verify at all levels of government and employment. It's free, easy to use (use it in my company), and "law suit tested."

The only "hard line" was employers would have to pay liveable wages and withhold taxes. In most of Virginia that's a huge no-no.

Major corporations and contractors paid big bucks (in campaign contributions) to ensure hassle-free access to illegal cheap labor. And it looks like they spent their money well.

It just goes to show, when there is a controversial issue in Virginia, we can count on payoffs find their way into the right pockets.

Recommendation is that these people are made to become "uncomfortable" in this situaltion. Some kind of reason they are forced to return to their country of origin. Hundreds and hundreds of these people (in Fairfax) have become annoying now and more are on the way. Parking lots littered with day labors who don't flag down a boss and remain standing around all day. Make it so they feel comfortable here and retreat back to their country with their tails between their legs.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crime was higher in 1980 than today. I suppose in
> 1980, Fairfax County was 95% illegal aliens?

1980 wasn't great times economically- it was the Carter years with high inflation and exhorbiant interest rates, there is always more crime in bad economic times. Crime rates are going up now...

Prince William county's crime rate went down after they got a little harder about enforcement ( or at least publicly appeared to) Fairfax county's crime rate has gone up and school enrollment has gone up also with the influx of illegals into the county from PW..

I like most of my Spanish neighbors.Some are illegal, but they work hard in the trades and don't fuck with anyone.

My question is this- Why are American's too "proud" to do the jobs the illegals are taking? When is the last time you saw a white kid in the burbs pushing a lawnmower, throwing newspapers or washing dishes? These are all jobs I had as a kid, now kids are so lazy, the pool companies have to import Russians as lifeguards..

THat line about americans being too proud is old and tired. How would we know, when businesses and homeowners would rather pay someone low wages under the table rather than go thorugh the hassles of employment forms, payroll withholding, etc.

Illegal aliens distort the picture in all sorts of ways.

How many are there? No one knows. How much do they cost us legal citizens and taxpayers? No one knows. Ffx County made a show of trying to find out, and ended up copping out by saying "we can't figure it out and don't want to try to estimate."

The people who come here illegally are, in my experience, hard working and honest folks just trying to make a living and send money home. The trouble is, while their goal is laudable their method is not. The ends do not justify the means (come here illegally rather than following the law) .

Until we stop paying social services and get them out of the job market, no one will knwo whether the jobs they take could/would be filled by legal residents and we sure won't be able to ensure that our tax dollars paid by legal residents are used for those legal residents and only those legal residents.

A key point is that they send their earnings home. No help to our economy.

Lenny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This "commission" was rigged from the beginning.
> They of course, found
> what Timmy wanted in the first place. Time for a
> Revolution and throw
> all these bums out. I dont give a damn if somebody
> has to pay American
> wages to their maid or not. To Hell with the
> illegals and the sorry
> lot who thinks we cant live without them. BTW,
> speak to me in ENGLISH!


Revolution? You sorry ass whining 20 somethings would get your asses kicked in any revolution. Then you'd really have to kiss some hispanic ass to survive!

oaktonmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A key point is that they send their earnings home.
> No help to our economy.


Ohhhh..and I suppose they dont buy food here...pay rent here...live here just because they send some of their money home1

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crime was higher in 1980 than today. I suppose
> in
> > 1980, Fairfax County was 95% illegal aliens?
>
> 1980 wasn't great times economically- it was the
> Carter years with high inflation and exhorbiant
> interest rates, there is always more crime in bad
> economic times. Crime rates are going up now...
>
> Prince William county's crime rate went down after
> they got a little harder about enforcement ( or at
> least publicly appeared to) Fairfax county's crime
> rate has gone up and school enrollment has gone up
> also with the influx of illegals into the county
> from PW..
>
> I like most of my Spanish neighbors.Some are
> illegal, but they work hard in the trades and
> don't fuck with anyone.
>
> My question is this- Why are American's too
> "proud" to do the jobs the illegals are taking?
> When is the last time you saw a white kid in the
> burbs pushing a lawnmower, throwing newspapers or
> washing dishes? These are all jobs I had as a kid,
> now kids are so lazy, the pool companies have to
> import Russians as lifeguards..

They're not too proud..just too lazy! Theyve been raised by their parents and think they are entitled to the same throughout their entire life. They have in effect come to expect a welfare state...just instead of the government paying..it's their parents.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oaktonmom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A key point is that they send their earnings
> home.
> > No help to our economy.
>
>
> Ohhhh..and I suppose they dont buy food here...pay
> rent here...live here just because they send some
> of their money home1

SO they put a little money into the grocery store, gas station, whatever. So they live in illegal boarding houses packed to the gills.

Does that even begin to compare with the social services they consume, all paid for by legal taxpaying citizens? How can a few groceries and rent possibly make up for the amount consumed in public services like schools and health care.

I'm not one of these "deport-them-all" zealots, but there are SO many lies on the pro-illegal side..

The main one is the rationale that by paying sales tax, gas tax etc that it somehow justifies using fake SSn #'s and 1099's that are never paid. Everybody who shops or drives pays these taxes, can we pick federal laws we decide not to abide by?? I know more than one person who has had their SSN misappropiated by someone who just picked a random (knowing the 1st 3 numbers were Virginia).

Wages are always driven to the basement when workers are willing accept worse conditions and pay, and are willing to live in illegal boarding houses with 4 to a room.Many of the illegals are indeed very hard workers, but a hungrier and have a lower standard than the legals..

I think it would be impossible to deport all illegals, I think it is ridiculous though how pandering and timid the majority of local politicians are about common sense things like INS checks for those arrested and a hardline approach against the gangs.

It's kinda funny how anti-illegal folks complain about illegals driving down wages, yet seem to whine about minimum wage laws.

The fact we are the taxpaying citizens that vote and no one is listening to us, but they are to the non-citizen illegal immigrant non-legal social security holding non-tax paying law breaking criminal. This is our America now, unless, "WE THE PEOPLE CHANGE IT!" It's not a dream, wake up people! Our rights are being stripped away. Look at the fast food places on 236 in Annandale, filled with immigrants, non-english speaking. Go into Safeway, almost the same. I know there are citizens that would take a job there, I'm one and I have a college degree, and I can't find a job and have been looking almost a year. What I see makes me angry! I see illegals by the tons going into the State Empolyment office and getting assistance with obtaining jobs, how is that fair? Not to mention the benefits they receive, which I know is covered by the employer, but they are using an illegal social, why is that not picked up some how? Illegals know how to scam our system, I think they are taught this in order to gain the most income for them and their country, but it's us they are ripping off, and our country could care less as far as prevention!

spunky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact we are the taxpaying citizens that vote
> and no one is listening to us, but they are to the
> non-citizen illegal immigrant non-legal social
> security holding non-tax paying law breaking
> criminal. This is our America now, unless, "WE
> THE PEOPLE CHANGE IT!" It's not a dream, wake up
> people! Our rights are being stripped away. Look
> at the fast food places on 236 in Annandale,
> filled with immigrants, non-english speaking. Go
> into Safeway, almost the same. I know there are
> citizens that would take a job there, I'm one and
> I have a college degree, and I can't find a job
> and have been looking almost a year. What I see
> makes me angry! I see illegals by the tons going
> into the State Empolyment office and getting
> assistance with obtaining jobs, how is that fair?
> Not to mention the benefits they receive, which I
> know is covered by the employer, but they are
> using an illegal social, why is that not picked up
> some how? Illegals know how to scam our system, I
> think they are taught this in order to gain the
> most income for them and their country, but it's
> us they are ripping off, and our country could
> care less as far as prevention!


Both my kids are in college and had a VERY difficult time finding
jobs last summer. They've both worked retail before and found most
of the jobs they'd before filled by illegals. Another thing
that burns me up is Fairfax County Government is full of foreigners.
Americans should have first shot at those jobs and I sure as Hell
dont think they were the only qualified applicants.

Any suggestions on how to get the word out? Obviously the media won't cover it.

oaktonmom Wrote:
>>> Any suggestions on how to get the word out?


Yeah. Get off the forum and go stand on a milk crate with a megaphone, you dumb cunt.

Nice, Meeper. I can tell from your prior posts that you are a deep thinker. Thanks for the input.

oaktonmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nice, Meeper. I can tell from your prior posts
> that you are a deep thinker. Thanks for the
> input.
Attachments:

Guest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do
> you understand, if it wasn't for illegal
> immigrants the cost of living would be through the
> roof. Where as you can now pay an illegal
> immigrant cheap labor (no benefits) to get dirty
> jobs done, you would pay 5 - 10 times more to pay
> some low wage worker (with benefits) to do.

So I guess in the 1950's- 1960's before the immigration wave, life was just that much harder and more expensive? WRONG! This is complete BS. Besides, since when is it the "right" thing to exploit immigrant labor because it makes our costs cheaper? They shouldn't be making less than minimum wage...

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crime was higher in 1980 than today. I suppose in
> 1980, Fairfax County was 95% illegal aliens?

And the rate of violent crime is significantly higher today than it was in the 1960's. What's your point?

http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-23.pdf

Let me get this straight....Americans born and raised here...college educated cant get near minimum wage jobs at fast food restaurants and supermarkets! These undereducated...non-english speaking persons can out compete an american willing to work for the same wage! I don't think so! Anyone who cant compete has a deeper issue other then they are being discriminated against.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me get this straight....Americans born and
> raised here...college educated cant get near
> minimum wage jobs at fast food restaurants and
> supermarkets! These undereducated...non-english
> speaking persons can out compete an american
> willing to work for the same wage! I don't think
> so! Anyone who cant compete has a deeper issue
> other then they are being discriminated against.

clearly, no logic can penetrate your bias when you turn a blind eye to the obvious. not everyone goes to college and 20 years ago these jobs were filled by legal citizens.



dont make kitty cry.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Formerhick - I recognize you might not have the level of education of some, but your short statement re minimum wages reflects such significant ignorance of economics that it is worthy of a rebuttal.

Those who thoughtfully take a position against minimum wage laws do so out of a belief that such laws inhibit job creation and make it more difficult to create entry level jobs. This is of course debatable, but that is the rationale. And in many areas of the country, minimum wage laws principally benefit middle class high school kids working part-time. Of course, legislatures can pass all of the minimum wage laws they want, but of course enforcement of the same as regards illegal immigrants is limited or non-existent. So the real irony is that emotive people such as you seem to be in favor of (or so you imply) the raising of the minimum wage, but at the same time deign to permit permissive (and illegal immigration), which of course undermines the very cause you support, because no set of laws are worth a damn without the means to enforce them. And if you think illegal immigrants are in any sort of number and engaging attorneys to make wage and hour claims (there are a few cases extant I'll admit), I have some farmland in Greenland for sale.

Moreover, illegal immigration does in fact depress wages, especially in entry level jobs. The level of negative impact may be as much as 10 percent, but a range of 7 to 8 percent is a safe bet. Of course, the worst impacted by the influx of illegal immigrants are the citizen poor, many of whom are minorities and who desperately need that first step up on the employment ladder to develop work habits and hopefully a lifetime of employment. One may attempt trivialize the problems that illegal immigration obtains, and engage in elliptical and ill informed thinking on matters such as health care and crime and educational costs, but one would think that someone politically inclined to reflexively support the working class would: a) understand the impact of illegal immigration on first rung employment; and b) work to limit it to protect jobs and wage levels in many afflicted communities. Of course, these inconsistencies may be able to explained with your towering intellect, but it does strike me that your attempt to generalize conservatives in an ironic way raised far more ironies than you likely intended.

And I wait with baited anticipation for the insults, the surest sign of incapability to engage in debate (such as expressed by Meeper above).

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Formerhick - I recognize you might not have the
> level of education of some, but your short
> statement re minimum wages reflects such
> significant ignorance of economics that it is
> worthy of a rebuttal.
>
> Those who thoughtfully take a position against
> minimum wage laws do so out of a belief that such
> laws inhibit job creation and make it more
> difficult to create entry level jobs. This is of
> course debatable, but that is the rationale. And
> in many areas of the country, minimum wage laws
> principally benefit middle class high school kids
> working part-time. Of course, legislatures can
> pass all of the minimum wage laws they want, but
> of course enforcement of the same as regards
> illegal immigrants is limited or non-existent. So
> the real irony is that emotive people such as you
> seem to be in favor of (or so you imply) the
> raising of the minimum wage, but at the same time
> deign to permit permissive (and illegal
> immigration), which of course undermines the very
> cause you support, because no set of laws are
> worth a damn without the means to enforce them.
> And if you think illegal immigrants are in any
> sort of number and engaging attorneys to make wage
> and hour claims (there are a few cases extant
> I'll admit), I have some farmland in Greenland for
> sale.
>
> Moreover, illegal immigration does in fact depress
> wages, especially in entry level jobs. The level
> of negative impact may be as much as 10 percent,
> but a range of 7 to 8 percent is a safe bet. Of
> course, the worst impacted by the influx of
> illegal immigrants are the citizen poor, many of
> whom are minorities and who desperately need that
> first step up on the employment ladder to develop
> work habits and hopefully a lifetime of
> employment. One may attempt trivialize the
> problems that illegal immigration obtains, and
> engage in elliptical and ill informed thinking on
> matters such as health care and crime and
> educational costs, but one would think that
> someone politically inclined to reflexively
> support the working class would: a) understand
> the impact of illegal immigration on first rung
> employment; and b) work to limit it to protect
> jobs and wage levels in many afflicted
> communities. Of course, these inconsistencies may
> be able to explained with your towering intellect,
> but it does strike me that your attempt to
> generalize conservatives in an ironic way raised
> far more ironies than you likely intended.
>
> And I wait with baited anticipation for the
> insults, the surest sign of incapability to engage
> in debate (such as expressed by Meeper above).


+1 (although poorly written)

simply, minimum wage laws (among other regulations) artificially inflate the wages, making it impossible for an employer to legally employ a citizen, creating the demand for black market labor.

also, as mentioned by quantum, minimum wage laws only benefit middle class teenagers and labor unions, while restricting the job supply for the working poor.

So, yes, formerhick, it is "kind of funny," if you don't completely grasp the economics of the situation. But once you understand, it's deadly serious.

Strates well done are you by chance related to Radiophile?

I also think Quantum exponded further and made his point, I do like the way he pwned Meeker, and it was so on target...don't you agree?

So...what do we do now? I did notice that Prince William hardly received any media coverage, nationally when they were in the thick of things. Corp. do not want this to snowball.

Which is more the reason to move on it!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2008 02:31AM by spunky.

Hey Spunky, you mis-spelled it - it's "strates". I guess even miss high and mighty can make a typo too. Or perhaps were you attacking him?

What goes around comes around.

911 is called? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Spunky, you mis-spelled it - it's "strates". I
> guess even miss high and mighty can make a typo
> too. Or perhaps were you attacking him?
>
> What goes around comes around.


HUMOR ME FOR A MINUTE WHILE I POINT OUT SOMETHING FOR THE LESS BLESSED IN THEIR NORTHERN HEADS, FOR MEN YES THAT'S YOUR HEAD ON YOUR SHOULDERS. NOW FIRST I AM USING CAPS SO YOU CAN BETTER TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHERE I AM SPEAKING AND WHERE THOSE I WILL REFER TO AS, OH, FOR A LACK OF A BETTER WORD, LET'S SAY, PIE-FACES ARE BABBLNG.

ABOVE YOU NOTICE THAT "911 IS CALLED?" REFERS TO THE REFERENCE, "MISS HIGH AND MIGHTY" AND THEN BELOW US YOU CAN SHE WHERE, "ANGELUS42774" MAKES REFERENCE TO THE SAME REFERENCE BUT FROM A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THREAD. NOW WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF THAT HAPPENING BY 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE? NULL. BUT THE SAME PERSON POSTING AS 2 DIFFERENT POSTERS? DEFINITELY!!!!!!

SINCE 911 IS NOT REGISTERED AND ANGELUS IS, I WOULD SAY ANGELUS IS DEFINITELY A FRAUD AND BY NO MEANS AN ANGEL. MAYBE A STUPID ANGEL WANNA B, WHOZ BEEN CALLED OUT BIG TIME...MORON...DO YOU LIKE LOOKING THE FOOL? CUZ YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE SLAPP'IN YOURSELF IN THE FACE EACH AND EVERYTIME I CALL YOU OUT LIKE THIS ALONG WITH YOUR BUDS LIKE 496, MEEPER, MARGIE, MSMEPHISTO,PGENS, MRS. K, AND I AM PROBABLY LEAVING SOMEONE OUT. BUT OUT THIS IS BECAUSE YOU BULLYS ARE JUST HATERS, AND YOU JUST WANT ME TO LEAVE, AND I SAID NO! YOU DON'T MAKE THE RULES!
IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT MAKE THIS WORLD THE UGLY IGNORANT PLACE IT HAS BECOME AND I WON'T BOW TO YOU NOW OR NEVER. YOUR UGLINESS WILL BE ULGY ANYWHERE YOU GO
AND IT WILL BE HATED EVERYWHERE YOU GO. LEARN TO JUST LET IT BE AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER, TO NOVEL CONCEPT FOR YOU TO GRASP? THEN YOU MAKE LIKE A TREE AND LEAVE AND TAKE YOUR HATE WITH YOU.

Re: Fairfax Water gets their water supply from the Potomac and the Occaquain rivers
Posted by: angelus42774 ()
Date: November 25, 2008 02:22PM


Spunky, what kind of car do you drive, Miss High and Mighty? Do you drive a Prius or some kind of eco friendly car? if not, shutty uppy you pie face.

spunky Wrote:
HUMOR ME FOR A MINUTE WHILE I POINT OUT SOMETHING FOR THE LESS BLESSED IN THEIR NORTHERN HEADS, FOR MEN YES THAT'S YOUR HEAD ON YOUR SHOULDERS. NOW FIRST I AM USING CAPS SO YOU CAN BETTER TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHERE I AM SPEAKING AND WHERE THOSE I WILL REFER TO AS, OH, FOR A LACK OF A BETTER WORD, LET'S SAY, PIE-FACES ARE BABBLNG. ABOVE YOU NOTICE THAT "911 IS CALLED?" REFERS TO THE REFERENCE, "MISS HIGH AND MIGHTY" AND THEN BELOW US YOU CAN SHE WHERE, "ANGELUS42774" MAKES REFERENCE TO THE SAME REFERENCE BUT FROM A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THREAD. NOW WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF THAT HAPPENING BY 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE? NULL. BUT THE SAME PERSON POSTING AS 2 DIFFERENT POSTERS? DEFINITELY!!!!!! SINCE 911 IS NOT REGISTERED AND ANGELUS IS, I WOULD SAY ANGELUS IS DEFINITELY A FRAUD AND BY NO MEANS AN ANGEL. MAYBE A STUPID ANGEL WANNA B, WHOZ BEEN CALLED OUT BIG TIME...MORON...DO YOU LIKE LOOKING THE FOOL? CUZ YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE SLAPP'IN YOURSELF IN THE FACE EACH AND EVERYTIME I CALL YOU OUT LIKE THIS ALONG WITH YOUR BUDS LIKE 496, MEEPER, MARGIE, MSMEPHISTO,PGENS, MRS. K, AND I AM PROBABLY LEAVING SOMEONE OUT. BUT OUT THIS IS BECAUSE YOU BULLYS ARE JUST HATERS, AND YOU JUST WANT ME TO LEAVE, AND I SAID NO! YOU DON'T MAKE THE RULES! IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT MAKE THIS WORLD THE UGLY IGNORANT PLACE IT HAS BECOME AND I WON'T BOW TO YOU NOW OR NEVER. YOUR UGLINESS WILL BE ULGY ANYWHERE YOU GO AND IT WILL BE HATED EVERYWHERE YOU GO. LEARN TO JUST LET IT BE AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER, TO NOVEL CONCEPT FOR YOU TO GRASP? THEN YOU MAKE LIKE A TREE AND LEAVE AND TAKE YOUR HATE WITH YOU.
Attachments:

If you all are truly so worried about all the resources illegals cost our society...and dont pay taxes....legalize them...and let them start paying at least some state and feeral income taxes. But that really isnt the issue..is it? The "impact" illegals are having on entry level jobs isnt really the issue either! Id like to meet one "legal" high school graduate who has been kept from a job at McDonlad's...Burger King....CVS that has not been able to find a job! These businesses are constantly looking for employees (at least until the recent republikan recession). You all assume that just because a person isnt lilly white the person must be an illegal. I doubt any of the businesses I mentioned hire very many illegals. Instead it is businesses depending on hard labor in the construction and farming industries that depend on illegals.

Whine all you want....post all the discusting animal tortuure pictures you can find....and waste all the time you want. But nothing is a substitute for ambition! Get some!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2008 11:48AM by Vince(1).

"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

When presented with an example of your own hypocrisy and habit of turning every logical discussion with dissenting opinions and real facts into a personal attack on the other person, Spunky responds with "you're not registered so you must be a fraud".

Why don't you try using your own head? For most women, that would be between their shoulders. You, apparently, have yours placed between your butt cheeks.

Have you seen the movie Contact, and/or are you familiar with the precept known as Occam's Razor? It says that all things being equal, the simplest answer is the right one. So what's more likely:

1) There's a grand conspiracy to get you perpetrated by one or two individuals using non-registered names (on an anonymous board) to attack you

2) I am new to the board and have not yet decided to register but couldn't let your ignorant comments pass without calling you out, saw Angelus' nickname on the other thread and thought it fit so used it.

In my short time on this board, I have noticed that people use unregistered names for lots of reasons, including making a point, drawing attention to the post, or simply as a joke.

Now that we've dealt with that, let's get back to the central issue of your ignorance and hypocrisy. In the other thread, when I mistakenly typed your name wrong you used it as an excuse to attack me personally rather than respond to my facts and opinioins. You even went so far, when I apologized for the typo, to tell me that you didn't believe it was just a typo, my apology was fake, and that I must have been attacking you.

You do the same thing and mis-type a name in this thread, and that was just an honest mistake because you are too sweet to attack anyone, right?

A mature person would look at the other person's points and, while perhaps being angry at themselves for the mistake or the other person for pointing it out, admit it and move on. You, on the other hand, choose to simply make vicious personal attack statements.

Gee, I though using brute force in the face of logic and facts was a male problem. Thanks for proving me wrong. Idiots come in both sexes.

Look you are an imposter and a fraud who is real angelus parading as someone else.

I like men who are men and not imposters or fraud in that regard either, now just go away you fat face Hispanic and leave me alone, you are becoming a stalker.

You are probably the one who sent me the google search on "What to do before I die." now "nuff already leave me alone!

By the way I honestly misspelled the name, but you purposely did, making it another name completely for fun, which Trickie pointed out to you. Big difference.

MEEPER DID YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OF MY WORDS FROM CAPS WHEN YOU PASTED THEM TO ADD YOUR ATTACHMENT? i BET YOU DID DOG!

spunky Wrote:
>>>> MEEPER DID YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OF MY WORDS FROM CAPS WHEN YOU PASTED THEM TO ADD YOUR ATTACHMENT? i BET YOU DID DOG!

Fuck you bitch.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spunky Wrote:
> >>>> MEEPER DID YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OF MY WORDS
> FROM CAPS WHEN YOU PASTED THEM TO ADD YOUR
> ATTACHMENT? i BET YOU DID DOG!
>
> Fuck you bitch.

Brilliant comeback! Here's a little song just for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JedX0y-T0oo

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spunky Wrote:
> >>>> MEEPER DID YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OF MY WORDS
> FROM CAPS WHEN YOU PASTED THEM TO ADD YOUR
> ATTACHMENT? i BET YOU DID DOG!
>
> Fuck you bitch.


"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"

Emerson

You are a true JERK!

spunky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a true JERK!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

spunky Wrote:
>>> "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"
>>> Emerson


"The crushing despair of unemployment is the hobglobin of wacky ladies that probably need some kind of therapy".

- Me

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spunky Wrote:
> >>> "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small
> minds"
> >>> Emerson
>
>
> "The crushing despair of unemployment is the
> hobglobin of wacky ladies that probably need some
> kind of therapy".
>
> - Me
Im not a hobgoblin but I be crushing a lot of unemployed ladiez.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spunky Wrote:
> >>>> MEEPER DID YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OF MY WORDS
> FROM CAPS WHEN YOU PASTED THEM TO ADD YOUR
> ATTACHMENT? i BET YOU DID DOG!
>
> Fuck you bitch.


You wish! In your dreams, bitch. Your wet ones!!!

That's probably the only way you get off, look at you and your sicko buds
sittin around posting to this forum like a bunch of sorry ass losers on the weekend...cuz you don't have noth'in and ain't go'in have noyh'in...losers.
What real womam in her right mind would want to waste her time on trash? Go blow up your dolls, little boys that's the hobgoblin of sick behavior! spunky!

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spunky Wrote:
> >>> "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small
> minds"
> >>> Emerson
>
>
> "The crushing despair of unemployment is the
> hobglobin of wacky ladies that probably need some
> kind of therapy".
>
> - Me

I have a job DOG BREATH! Now scratch your little balls with 1 hand and your head with the other, and give me that bewildered look, that comes natural to idiots like you. Also you spelled hobgoblin wrong, obviously, you don't have much of a job, like you! With friends like Gravis and based on your history here of your posts therapy wouldn't hurt you at all. But then again nothing hurts you which is a true sign you are suffering from a mental desease, along with all the company you keep. But it's not my place to give out medical advice, so I won't.

One thing I have noticed what you lack in brains you don't make up for anywhere else, I sure you have other short-comings, which is why you aren't out with any girls tonight or men? Loser!

"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

What's wrong Grevis? Your violent cartoons getting to you?

You probably enjoy the look of fear in that poor little puppy's face.

Enough is enough already! STOP posting in the threads Spunky has started and IGNORE her. Hopefully she will just go away!

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

Quantum:

David Card and Alan Krueger of Princeton might disagree with you regarding the alleged pernicious effect of a minimum wage increase.

There's a growing number of economists who believe other factors (better-motivated employees, for one) can mitigate the minimal effect a moderate increase in the minimum wage might have on job creation. Or, businesses create/don't create jobs for reasons unrelated to the minimum wage.

No one outside of the Socialist Party USA is talking about raising the minimum wage past $8.50 or so an hour. Therefore, I fail to see why being supportive of a moderate minimum wage is reflective of 'significant ignorance of economics' as you assert.

Finally: "In a Wells Fargo-Gallup poll taken in March, 46 percent of small-business owners said the minimum wage should be increased, and 86 percent said the wage had no effect on them."

http://www.truthout.org/article/economists-raising-minimum-wage-doesnt-cost-jobs

(it appears to be a cut and paste of a Bloomberg article)

Now, as for illegal immigrants depressing wages -- I had been led to believe by conservatives that anything that lowers the end price for consumers was an unmitigated Good Thing (e.g. outsourcing to China) and that those complaining should appreciate that the poor can now afford More Stuff.

Are you arguing that this is not so, or that the external costs of illegal immigration exceed any savings generated from lower wages to illegals? Perhaps, then, there might be external costs generated from shipping our manufacturing capacity overseas?

My own belief is that the proposed cures for illegal immigration all seem worse than the disease. Or, perhaps, you and others believe that 10 million people who have now taken residence within our borders will go meekly into the good night with nary a fuss. Unless, of course, you relish the thought of the Elian Gonzalez photo being replicated dozens of times a month.

http://inplacenews.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/448a07d7cb24f_s.jpg
(It won a Pulitzer Prize)

P.S. Is calling me stupid, ignorant, and ill-informed better when you take 100 words to do so instead of simply saying, 'U R DUMB'?

"A boost in the minimum wage would benefit about 15 million people, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a Washington research group partially funded by labor unions."

I think its important to realize that alot of the research into the benefits of wage laws is funded by labor unions, because in the end, labor unions are the ones who benefit most from increased minimum wage.

strates: You mean the labor unions whose membership has been declining for the past 50 years? That's quite a bit of power you attribute to them.

You also ignore the poll that shows 86% of actual small business owners (as opposed to the homines economici you and quantum are talking about) say that a moderate minimum wage increase doesn't affect them.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> strates: You mean the labor unions whose
> membership has been declining for the past 50
> years? That's quite a bit of power you attribute
> to them.
>
> You also ignore the poll that shows 86% of actual
> small business owners (as opposed to the homines
> economici you and quantum are talking about) say
> that a moderate minimum wage increase doesn't
> affect them.

Of course it won't affect the owners.

It will, howver, affect the workers - who will be fired if their work isn't worth the increased cost of the higher wages - and the customers - who will pay for the increases.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> strates: You mean the labor unions whose
> membership has been declining for the past 50
> years? That's quite a bit of power you attribute
> to them.
>
> You also ignore the poll that shows 86% of actual
> small business owners (as opposed to the homines
> economici you and quantum are talking about) say
> that a moderate minimum wage increase doesn't
> affect them.

Depending on where you live, labor unions are still very powerful.
(Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Pennsylvania, etc)

Minimum wage increases won't hurt small business owners because
very few of them are paying it anyway. I can't remember the last
time I saw a business in the DC area that actually only pays that
amount.

Also, listen to news to hear what Obama plans to do for the labor unions... they'll be seeing a resurgence soon, I'm sure.

Further, the strength of labor unions have waned simply because they have driven labor out of this country.

Formerhick, quit reading that union funded liberal smokescreen, and look for some real insight from the von Mises school of thought.

As George points out, Small business don't pay minimum wage, minimum wage law affects the Fast Food and Retail industries most.

Back to the ills of labor unions... they resist improvements in production efficiency, because they feel that increased efficiency will decrease union jobs. Well, now look at the situation US automakers are in... they can't compete because their production lines are years outdated and totally ineffecient. Simply put, it doesn't take any scientific studies to see the Union hand at fault in this situation.

strates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Back to the ills of labor unions... they resist
> improvements in production efficiency, because
> they feel that increased efficiency will decrease
> union jobs. Well, now look at the situation US
> automakers are in... they can't compete because
> their production lines are years outdated and
> totally ineffecient. Simply put, it doesn't take
> any scientific studies to see the Union hand at
> fault in this situation.


Unions don't prevent industries from improving their productivity.

The American car manufacturers retooled the majority of their production lines in the mid 1990's to meet the demand for SUVs and larger cars. The unions didn't force them to do that. When the Japanese were tooling up to build smaller, more efficient vehicles, and to offer more and more choices in the standard and subcompact lines and developing hybrid vehicles, GM, Ford and Chrysler was pumping up production of oversized living rooms on wheels. They put all of their eggs in one basket. That basket served them well from 2000-2006, but now it appears that basket wasn't a good long-term strategy.

The only people who claim that the unions are to blame are the apologists for corporate arrogance and stupidity. They say the unions have destroyed the american car industry but fail to recognize that GM would be doing just fine if their only problem was "the unions".

There must be something more going on than just those liberal union socialist commies crippling GM, considering that 65% of GM's business is overseas, in non-union plants, using non-union local parts, selling to local customers. GM has plants in Brazil, Russia, India, and China (as well as other places) and those plants account for 65% of GM's revenue.

But it's those damn greedy unions! We need a scapegoat now and we don't want to expend too much mental energy on the issue.

I have always been a fan of unions, because they could represent the otherwise little person as a strong unitied front. But I have always wondered why the big 3 automakers in light of the gas shortages and environmental friendly age from the 70's on never worked with that information. In mind that was just plain stupidity, especially in light of how the Japanese were operating. Do you believe the big 3 were encouraged by oil companies to make oil comsuming vehicles, knowing they could get a free ride from the taxpayers once the well ran dry, in other words? Because the oil companies and their shareholders would have lost alot had we been in small energy efficient vehicles all this time. Also think about how much better off our planet would be by this time had that been the case? That would be great if some how it could be proven.

spunky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have always been a fan of unions, because they
> could represent the otherwise little person as a
> strong unitied front. But I have always wondered
> why the big 3 automakers in light of the gas
> shortages and environmental friendly age from the
> 70's on never worked with that information. In
> mind that was just plain stupidity, especially in
> light of how the Japanese were operating. Do you
> believe the big 3 were encouraged by oil companies
> to make oil comsuming vehicles, knowing they could
> get a free ride from the taxpayers once the well
> ran dry, in other words? Because the oil companies
> and their shareholders would have lost alot had we
> been in small energy efficient vehicles all this
> time. Also think about how much better off our
> planet would be by this time had that been the
> case? That would be great if some how it could be
> proven.

There may have been some backroom dealing going on, but I think the majority of it was the automakers were selling what people were buying. They were stupid in not hedging their bets, by focusing solely on big cars and trucks.

Hell, even the tobacco companies were smart enough to diversify in the 80's. Even though they were making a killing selling cigarettes, they knew they couldn't count on that single source of revenue forever, and they got into snack foods, and other grocery-type items.

The Big 3 were shortsighted and greedy.

Now that their strategy has failed, they've got the corporate apologists blaming the unions. Maybe the unions share some responsibility, but the unions could not mismanage an entire industry. That takes CEOs, COOs and Boards of Directors.

People could not buy the SUV if they weren't making them. Think about it, in CA about that time there were some really good fuel efficient and battery test cars put out that shortly were taken off the market. I can't remember the name now, but they had a real good rating but they took all the existing cars and recalled all the ones people had and destroyed them. There was a documentary regarding this I saw because the people in CA didn't want to ghive their cars because they were that good and efficient. They protested, try to get information as to why the car mfg. was taking this action and what they planned to do with the cars, but they got lies. Some people taped the cars being hauled off and smashed up. The problem as it turned out was that the car mfg. made their car to good, and wanted to keep it a secret. Now thay want use to bail them out, this should be an outrage. There's alot more going on here, you better believe it, as with IRAQ, as with our entire country.

Do u still think I'm crazy? Not sure? Then check it out. Go for a Pulitzer!
Or, do I have to do that for you to? I've already been told I'm a bad writer.
Just do it!

strates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, listen to news to hear what Obama plans to
> do for the labor unions... they'll be seeing a
> resurgence soon, I'm sure.
>
> Further, the strength of labor unions have waned
> simply because they have driven labor out of this
> country.

OK, so union workers are all overpaid-- so low wages good.

But illegal workers are bad because they drive wages down. I thought low wages were good.

> Formerhick, quit reading that union funded liberal
> smokescreen, and look for some real insight from
> the von Mises school of thought.

You mean the Austrian School of Economics and Cake-Eating? No thanks. I like having more thoughts on economics than 'Let them eat cake.'

> As George points out, Small business don't pay
> minimum wage, minimum wage law affects the Fast
> Food and Retail industries most.

So low wages are good again-- what's the problem with illegal immigrants?

> Back to the ills of labor unions... they resist
> improvements in production efficiency, because
> they feel that increased efficiency will decrease
> union jobs. Well, now look at the situation US
> automakers are in... they can't compete because
> their production lines are years outdated and
> totally ineffecient. Simply put, it doesn't take
> any scientific studies to see the Union hand at
> fault in this situation.

I'm sure the actual cars being designed and sold had nothing to do with anything.

The point is not whether low wage illegal aliens or higher wage unions are good or bad. It's that both are artificial intrusions into the labor market that prevent finding the balance of interests.

Lower cost labor = more profit but it also produces an incentive to exploit the workers. Business needs to be able to find the right cost of labor based on a fair wage for fair (legal) workers. Employees need to find the right salary and benefits that allow the company to make a profit without being exploited.

Unfortunately, unions distort the picture because beyond protecting employees from exploitation they seem to think the company owes them something and that it's not the company's right to manage the company to stay in business and turn a profit.

Also unfortunately, businesses distort the picture by hiring and exploiting low wage illegal alien employees at the expense of legal residents.

FairfaxTaxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also unfortunately, businesses distort the picture
> by hiring and exploiting low wage illegal alien
> employees at the expense of legal residents.

the illegal aliens are clearly taking our jobs.




"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

they took arrh jobbs!

Matt Stone and Trey Parker always know how to make fun of fools.


America! Fuck YEAH!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2008 01:49AM by Bob.

Bob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they took arrh jobbs!

Bob, my guess is that you don't work in any of the trades effected by illegal immigration. Imagine if illegal aliens find a way to penetrate the legal profession, teaching or any job with a GS in front of it. I'm sure a lot of people who are so quick to paint those who complain now as all bigots and hillbillies would sing another tune.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bob Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > they took arrh jobbs!
>
> Bob, my guess is that you don't work in any of the
> trades effected by illegal immigration.

+1


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

WingNut Wrote:

> Bob, my guess is that you don't work in any of the
> trades effected by illegal immigration. Imagine if
> illegal aliens find a way to penetrate the legal
> profession, teaching or any job with a GS in front
> of it. I'm sure a lot of people who are so quick
> to paint those who complain now as all bigots and
> hillbillies would sing another tune.

I'm not concerned about illegal aliens taking my job, but I am very concerned that they are taking the jobs of Americans who I normally hire to work on my home.

I do not want illegal aliens in or around my home and will thoroughly check out a contractor before I sign on the bottom line. My contract specifically states that all workers speak English and are legally authorized to work in the US.

Northern VA is so lax with enforcement that contractors don't even try to hide that they hire illegal workers. The last time this happened, it was a contractor assigned by Home Depot for a home improvement job. When I raised this concern with Home Depot, I was told they have a list of contractors and assign whoever is next on the list. If I want only legal workers, I have to take it up with the contractor.

I have since found three local contractors who hire only Americans - but it took me nearly 2 years to find them. That's how bad it is around here.

Junes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
>
> > Bob, my guess is that you don't work in any of
> the
> > trades effected by illegal immigration. Imagine
> if
> > illegal aliens find a way to penetrate the
> legal
> > profession, teaching or any job with a GS in
> front
> > of it. I'm sure a lot of people who are so
> quick
> > to paint those who complain now as all bigots
> and
> > hillbillies would sing another tune.
>
> I'm not concerned about illegal aliens taking my
> job, but I am very concerned that they are taking
> the jobs of Americans who I normally hire to work
> on my home.
>
> I do not want illegal aliens in or around my home
> and will thoroughly check out a contractor before
> I sign on the bottom line. My contract
> specifically states that all workers speak English
> and are legally authorized to work in the US.
>
> Northern VA is so lax with enforcement that
> contractors don't even try to hide that they hire
> illegal workers. The last time this happened, it
> was a contractor assigned by Home Depot for a home
> improvement job. When I raised this concern with
> Home Depot, I was told they have a list of
> contractors and assign whoever is next on the
> list. If I want only legal workers, I have to take
> it up with the contractor.
>
> I have since found three local contractors who
> hire only Americans - but it took me nearly 2
> years to find them. That's how bad it is around
> here.


Good for you Junes. If more people took this approach, more Americans
would have work. I'm concerned too about the summer jobs for my
kids. They had a very difficult time last summer and they've noticed
the types of jobs they could do are usually taken by illegals.
Thanks.

> Good for you Junes. If more people took this
> approach, more Americans
> would have work. I'm concerned too about the
> summer jobs for my
> kids. They had a very difficult time last summer
> and they've noticed
> the types of jobs they could do are usually taken
> by illegals.
> Thanks.
how the hell do you or your kids know that people working are "illegals"...just becasue they arent lilly white....non-accent speaking people doesnt mean they are "illegals". You are teaching your kids great life lessons...to blame those less fortunate then them for all their economic challenges.

Junes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
>
> > Bob, my guess is that you don't work in any of
> the
> > trades effected by illegal immigration. Imagine
> if
> > illegal aliens find a way to penetrate the
> legal
> > profession, teaching or any job with a GS in
> front
> > of it. I'm sure a lot of people who are so
> quick
> > to paint those who complain now as all bigots
> and
> > hillbillies would sing another tune.
>
> I'm not concerned about illegal aliens taking my
> job, but I am very concerned that they are taking
> the jobs of Americans who I normally hire to work
> on my home.
>
> I do not want illegal aliens in or around my home
> and will thoroughly check out a contractor before
> I sign on the bottom line. My contract
> specifically states that all workers speak English
> and are legally authorized to work in the US.
>
> Northern VA is so lax with enforcement that
> contractors don't even try to hide that they hire
> illegal workers. The last time this happened, it
> was a contractor assigned by Home Depot for a home
> improvement job. When I raised this concern with
> Home Depot, I was told they have a list of
> contractors and assign whoever is next on the
> list. If I want only legal workers, I have to take
> it up with the contractor.
>
> I have since found three local contractors who
> hire only Americans - but it took me nearly 2
> years to find them. That's how bad it is around
> here.


In the last 3 years I have had my roof replaced...a new deck built..and windows replaced. In all cases persons for whom English was a second language did a GREAT job.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> In the last 3 years I have had my roof
> replaced...a new deck built..and windows replaced.
> In all cases persons for whom English was a
> second language did a GREAT job.

Replace Vince with an illegal alien who doesn't speak a word of English.

The point is WE, fairfax county needs to take a stand as did PW, whose for it?

I am!

I don't think ANYBODY here has questioned the abilities of the illegal contractors who are available. I've sure used some for shit work over the years and I know some very skilled carpenters and roofers and floor guys with almost zero ingles and questionable legality. Hardworkers and GREAT neighbors, no one is arguing that..

"Deport them ALL" would be a stupid policy, but a STUPIDER policy is to ignore the problem and cry racism anytime someone raises the issue of how illegals have lowered wages for native born American workers. Maybe some of the posters on this board are professionals who are far above any employemnt threat illegals bring, but I know plenty of people who do painting, masonry, landscape etc, who have experienced a great loss of revenue because of the availabilty of cheap illegal help.

It's funny when I talk to IT guys who'll carp and moan about outsourced coding to India, but think it is the "American Way" to race to the wage basement, look the other way and hire illegals to save a few bucks on home projects. These same people will try to posture at the expense of those effected- point fingers and pretty much say "look at me, Im tolerant-you're not!"

It's a completely DIFFERENT issue to talk about the cultural effects of the huge and growing latino population. Illegals and low wages are one problem and the language and quick demographic change that many don't like is another ball of yarn entirely. Don't be presumptous and think that anyone complaining about the wage effects is just harboring some racial or cultural animosity, though I feel the cultural part is perfectly legit to address...

spunky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point is WE, fairfax county needs to take a
> stand as did PW, whose for it?
>
> I am!


That's the last thing we need! Hate politics generates nothing but hate. What you need to do is take your hate and move to PW.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think ANYBODY here has questioned the
> abilities of the illegal contractors who are
> available. I've sure used some for shit work over
> the years and I know some very skilled carpenters
> and roofers and floor guys with almost zero ingles
> and questionable legality. Hardworkers and GREAT
> neighbors, no one is arguing that..
>
> "Deport them ALL" would be a stupid policy, but a
> STUPIDER policy is to ignore the problem and cry
> racism anytime someone raises the issue of how
> illegals have lowered wages for native born
> American workers. Maybe some of the posters on
> this board are professionals who are far above any
> employemnt threat illegals bring, but I know
> plenty of people who do painting, masonry,
> landscape etc, who have experienced a great loss
> of revenue because of the availabilty of cheap
> illegal help.
>
> It's funny when I talk to IT guys who'll carp and
> moan about outsourced coding to India, but think
> it is the "American Way" to race to the wage
> basement, look the other way and hire illegals to
> save a few bucks on home projects. These same
> people will try to posture at the expense of those
> effected- point fingers and pretty much say "look
> at me, Im tolerant-you're not!"
>
> It's a completely DIFFERENT issue to talk about
> the cultural effects of the huge and growing
> latino population. Illegals and low wages are one
> problem and the language and quick demographic
> change that many don't like is another ball of
> yarn entirely. Don't be presumptous and think that
> anyone complaining about the wage effects is just
> harboring some racial or cultural animosity,
> though I feel the cultural part is perfectly legit
> to address...

A state that supports "right to work" legislation has accepted the concept where the employer can do whatever he/she wants to drive down the cost of labor. There is only one way for labor to protect itself..and that is untited. So in my opinion VA is a free trade zone. So...in my opinion..the wage issue really is nothing more then a code subject for racism.

Ever see any of the threads on here about immigrants? Everyone assumes that every hispanic they see working at McDonald's is an illegal...every hispanic they see is an illegal! It is all 90% racism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2008 11:11PM by Vince(1).

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spunky Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The point is WE, fairfax county needs to take a
> > stand as did PW, whose for it?
> >
> > I am!
>
>
> That's the last thing we need! Hate politics
> generates nothing but hate. What you need to do
> is take your hate and move to PW.


No, it's right politics we now have twice as many illegals here in Fairfax County because of the decisions of PW and we are paying twice as much too on so many levels...you should move Vince you gay love Hispanic to South America where you can be the center of attention. I hear you would fit in perfectly in Brazil!

It's time we stop talking and put our action where our mouth is, before we lose our voice and more!

Vince(1) Wrote:
> A state that supports "right to work" legislation
> has accepted the concept where the employer can do
> whatever he/she wants to drive down the cost of
> labor. There is only one way for labor to protect
> itself..and that is untited. So in my opinion VA
> is a free trade zone. So...in my opinion..the
> wage issue really is nothing more then a code
> subject for racism.
>
> Ever see any of the threads on here about
> immigrants? Everyone assumes that every hispanic
> they see working at McDonald's is an
> illegal...every hispanic they see is an illegal!
> It is all 90% racism.

Vince, You are drawing the conclusion that you want and ignoring reality. 90% racism?Again, I've got to think you've never worked in any of the effected areas, if you have done ANY type of construction work in your life, you will understand. The fast food jobs are irrelevent- do you understand that there are SKILLED caprenters (illegal) who are working for as low as $10 and $12 per hour?

Again, I admire like shit out of the hunger and dedication of a lot of the illegals here. But they have a different standard- they are willing to cut costs live 3 and 4 to a small apartment and the work/safety conditions they have from Central America are much lower than what us gringos expect, ie they NEVER complain, even when they maybe should.

All said, there is a GREAT impact on wages because of illegals. If you can't identify with the American workers complaint or understand the issue, don't point the racist finger at those of us who do have a personal understanding of the issue.

WingNut Wrote:

> Vince, You are drawing the conclusion that you
> want and ignoring reality. 90% racism?Again, I've
> got to think you've never worked in any of the
> effected areas, if you have done ANY type of
> construction work in your life, you will
> understand. The fast food jobs are irrelevent- do
> you understand that there are SKILLED caprenters
> (illegal) who are working for as low as $10 and
> $12 per hour?
>
> Again, I admire like shit out of the hunger and
> dedication of a lot of the illegals here. But they
> have a different standard- they are willing to cut
> costs live 3 and 4 to a small apartment and the
> work/safety conditions they have from Central
> America are much lower than what us gringos
> expect, ie they NEVER complain, even when they
> maybe should.
>
> All said, there is a GREAT impact on wages because
> of illegals. If you can't identify with the
> American workers complaint or understand the
> issue, don't point the racist finger at those of
> us who do have a personal understanding of the
> issue.

This has nothing to do with racism and Vince knows that, but that's the only (last) straw that he can grab hold of even though its slipping through his fingers.

It really doesn't matter how "accomplished" or hardworking illegal aliens are. They know they are in the country illegally and "making waves" is something you don't do if you want to stay.

Contractors who hire illegal aliens, cut corners elsewhere. A skilled illegal will not blow the whistle on a contractor, even it may result in a health or injury risk to the client later on - after the job is done. Nor will an illegal worker blow the whistle on a criminal in their midst.

Because corrupt contractors don't care about anything but the here and now and saving a buck, they have no regard for the quality of the job or the client's welfare. Because illegal alien workers will not expose the bad elements, they contribute to the problem and place clients at even greater risk.

And these are the people advocates and handlers like Vince want to protect. These are the people our government wants to grant blanket amnesty - without the resources to conduct adequate background checks - releasing murderers, rapists, drug dealers, gang members etal into our society.

Had the government done its job as it should have and implemented E-Verify, the problem would have been resolved years ago and only those deserving would be living in our country. And there is a very real probability that we would not be in these dire economic straits.

Added: It's not to late to turn this around and mandate E-Verify nationwide. If illegal aliens in the country today are worthy of immigrant status, they can go home and be processed through as every other legal immigrant is required to do. Their home countries are better equipped and have the resources to process these visas. That's why the immigration visa process is set up this way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2008 10:58AM by Junes.

Any reputible study of immigration shows they add more to our society then they draw out of it. And the statement that illegals look the other way when construction standards aren't adhered to is absolute bull shit. In a state that has "right to work" laws there is no protection for any laborer that reports such incidents. Again..it is only through organization that labor has any strength.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any reputible study of immigration shows they add
> more to our society then they draw out of it.
> And the statement that illegals look the other way
> when construction standards aren't adhered to is
> absolute bull shit. In a state that has "right to
> work" laws there is no protection for any laborer
> that reports such incidents. Again..it is only
> through organization that labor has any strength.


If you are talking about legalimmigrants who are sponsored and can not avail themselves of tax funded benefits and services or health care, then you are correct.

Vince, people like you play these games all the time, trying to roll up illegal aliens into the category of "immigrants," while plucking at your suspenders with a smug look on your face.

There is not ONE study that shows an illegal alien carries their own weight. The costs incurred for a pregnancy alone (pre- post-natal care and birth without complications) costs the taxpayers as much as $10,000. The costs to care for these anchor babies (welfare, food stamps, child care, housing assistants, etal) is estimated at $15,000. The cost to educate these children is $7,500, plus $3,500 if they do not speak English when they enter the school system.

The only "taxes" illegals pay are sales tax and, if they falsified their I-9 and on a payroll, SS and Medicare about 12% of their earnings (they max out exemptions to $0 out withholding).

The average annual earnings of an illegal alien in Northern VA is estimated to be $26,000 - about 30% of which is sent home to family in their country of citizenship.

At best an illegal alien pays combined taxes of about $3,600 a year (SS, Medicare, Sales - none of which are refunded on a tax return).

One kid and the illegal alien has reaped a tidy little tax funded bundle of cash.

Junes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Any reputible study of immigration shows they
> add
> > more to our society then they draw out of it.
> > And the statement that illegals look the other
> way
> > when construction standards aren't adhered to
> is
> > absolute bull shit. In a state that has "right
> to
> > work" laws there is no protection for any
> laborer
> > that reports such incidents. Again..it is only
> > through organization that labor has any
> strength.
>
>
> If you are talking about legalimmigrants who are
> sponsored and can not avail themselves of tax
> funded benefits and services or health care, then
> you are correct.
>
> Vince, people like you play these games all the
> time, trying to roll up illegal aliens into the
> category of "immigrants," while plucking at your
> suspenders with a smug look on your face.
>
> There is not ONE study that shows an illegal alien
> carries their own weight. The costs incurred for
> a pregnancy alone (pre- post-natal care and birth
> without complications) costs the taxpayers as much
> as $10,000. The costs to care for these anchor
> babies (welfare, food stamps, child care, housing
> assistants, etal) is estimated at $15,000. The
> cost to educate these children is $7,500, plus
> $3,500 if they do not speak English when they
> enter the school system.
>
> The only "taxes" illegals pay are sales tax and,
> if they falsified their I-9 and on a payroll, SS
> and Medicare about 12% of their earnings (they max
> out exemptions to $0 out withholding).
>
> The average annual earnings of an illegal alien in
> Northern VA is estimated to be $26,000 - about 30%
> of which is sent home to family in their country
> of citizenship.
>
> At best an illegal alien pays combined taxes of
> about $3,600 a year (SS, Medicare, Sales - none of
> which are refunded on a tax return).
>
> One kid and the illegal alien has reaped a tidy
> little tax funded bundle of cash.


If you are so worried about them not paying their way....let them become legal immigrants..overnight they will pay their taxes as a true sign of patriotism.

Junes Wrote:
> The only "taxes" illegals pay are sales tax and,
> if they falsified their I-9 and on a payroll, SS
> and Medicare about 12% of their earnings (they max
> out exemptions to $0 out withholding).
>
> The average annual earnings of an illegal alien in
> Northern VA is estimated to be $26,000 - about 30%
> of which is sent home to family in their country
> of citizenship.
>
> At best an illegal alien pays combined taxes of
> about $3,600 a year (SS, Medicare, Sales - none of
> which are refunded on a tax return).
>
> One kid and the illegal alien has reaped a tidy
> little tax funded bundle of cash.

Junes, A+, go to the head of the class. You illustrated the withholding game that has been played for years. Also remember the number of illegals ( and some legals for that matter) that get paid straight 1099's all with bogus names and numbers and pay ZERO..

To Vince(1), you definitely have an agenda that is union based and amnesty friendly. That's fine, but you should really concede the points you make when they are deflated by posters who know far more about the labor situation that you don't seem have much experience in. I'm sure you're intentions are the best in the world, illegals are HUMAN beings and if you feel they are being attacked racially, I applaud your defense of them. But when you wiggle around the truths about illegal underground labor, you lose any respect you gained

Aside from a few shit-and-run posts here, there has been lot of good information that examines the problems of cheap and illegal labor without the racist rhetoric you are sadly resorting to.

Vince, please tell us about your personal jobsite experiences, IF you are a union member and WHY you ignore every point that is made.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure you're intentions are
> the best in the world, illegals are HUMAN beings
> and if you feel they are being attacked racially,

if they were white, i would feel exactly the same way about this issue. i have had no reason to dislike the hispanic race and i do have some hispanic friends. if people from european countries were pulling this same non-assimilation bullshit (that causes a severe culture clash) and illegally gained entry into the US, i would want them deported as well. this is my country, why should i adapt to them?


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sure you're intentions are
> > the best in the world, illegals are HUMAN
> beings
> > and if you feel they are being attacked
> racially,
>
> if they were white, i would feel exactly the same
> way about this issue. i have had no reason to
> dislike the hispanic race and i do have some
> hispanic friends. if people from european
> countries were pulling this same non-assimilation
> bullshit (that causes a severe culture clash) and
> illegally gained entry into the US, i would want
> them deported as well. this is my country, why
> should i adapt to them?


At one point, there were a lot of Irish illegals in this country. However,
when ICE started the workplace raids, they started going back to Ireland
at their own expense and applying for legal immigration.

What a unique idea!

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sure you're intentions are
> > the best in the world, illegals are HUMAN
> beings
> > and if you feel they are being attacked
> racially,
>
> if they were white, i would feel exactly the same
> way about this issue. i have had no reason to
> dislike the hispanic race and i do have some
> hispanic friends. if people from european
> countries were pulling this same non-assimilation
> bullshit (that causes a severe culture clash) and
> illegally gained entry into the US, i would want
> them deported as well. this is my country, why
> should i adapt to them?


I have never seen you post some of the most hateful statements for any group of people as you have for hispanics. Oh yeah...except maybe teenage girls accidentally overdosing on heroine. Hispanics and drug overdoses...they bring out the true "humanitarian" in you.

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sure you're intentions are
> > the best in the world, illegals are HUMAN
> beings
> > and if you feel they are being attacked
> racially,
>
> if they were white, i would feel exactly the same
> way about this issue. i have had no reason to
> dislike the hispanic race and i do have some
> hispanic friends. if people from european
> countries were pulling this same non-assimilation
> bullshit (that causes a severe culture clash) and
> illegally gained entry into the US, i would want
> them deported as well. this is my country, why
> should i adapt to them?


You are correct Gravis and that's also a very real concern. You are not attcking anyone RACIALLY if you for instance dislike certain aspects of the culture or language of the immigrants. Immigrants are expected to keep some of their culture, but in a world with DishNetwork, internet, cheap phone and airfare there is a lot more clinging going on and the attitude by some that America is a jobsite and not a home.Are we racist if we oppose this? I can't see how, I think you are racist if you have no expectation or believe the "other races" are somehow "incapable" of adapting the American English language and a vague respect for the social mores Americans have..

We shouldn't have to say it to validate ourselves, but I've got the foreign born friends and neighbors, my girlfriend is Spanish etc etc...

I've said before, I like a lot of Mex, Salvadorans I've worked with and they are usually the first ones to admit there's a lot of shitheads that rode over behind the "good illegals"- I'm talking about the ones who are still in the street at Culmore or Herndon midday because they are lower skilled or live in overcrowded housing with menial rent obligations; the gangbangers; the habitual alcoholic loiterers etc, etc. You read the news, you know who they are...

What the defenders NEVER concede is that ANYONE who came over illegally is not only a lawbreaker, but a capitalist, a risk taker and an investor of sorts. Now if the job market gets bad or if there is no work for these folks, should there be a "government bailout" (ie social services, welfare and such) for these lawbreakers.? (NO)..Should Americans in the name of "tolerance" accomodate EVERY custom of distant cultures-- burkas on drivers licenses? cockfighting? dog roasting? forced marriages? female circumcision? REFUSAL to speak or attempt to learn your host countries tongue? (NO)

Personally, I'd almost rather have a hard working illegal for a neighbor than some phony tolerant type who will sell out the American economy and culture with
their passivity disguised as generosity. The "tolerant" type will continue to
deny the truths about wages, deny the truths about crime and in their own little way damage the nation more than the "rednecks" they always claim moral superiority over.

To Vince(1), you definitely have an agenda that is union based and amnesty friendly. That's fine, but you should really concede the points you make when they are deflated by posters who know far more about the labor situation that you don't seem have much experience in. I'm sure you're intentions are the best in the world, illegals are HUMAN beings and if you feel they are being attacked racially, I applaud your defense of them. But when you wiggle around the truths about illegal underground labor, you lose any respect you gained

Aside from a few shit-and-run posts here, there has been lot of good information that examines the problems of cheap and illegal labor without the racist rhetoric you are sadly resorting to.

Lets see...

"you should really concede the points you make when they are deflated by posters who know far more about the labor situation that you don't seem have much experience in."

I have worked my entire life around "experts" ..."professionals"... and in every case their expertise was used by someone paying their salary to prove a point...delay action...subvert and confuse the truth. So...I try to look at what I consider to be the bigger historical trends/truths. So...you described very accurately what I consider the big truths as it applies to illegals...they are human beings deserving of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The other thruth being that labor only has power to influence their financial progress through organized efforts. When politicians convince workers that they are better off in a "right to work" environment they are subject to the whims of the market place and migrating workers is a historical fact..... So, hit me with all the "facts" you can.

Vince, please tell us about your personal jobsite experiences, IF you are a union member and WHY you ignore every point that is made.

I have never worked an honest days work in my life. So what...doesnt mean I dont respect trades men/women and the work they do. As a member of management I have been excluded from joining a union...doesnt mean I dont see the historical value of unions. I ignore your points because they do not address the bigger historical facts..they attempt to get around them.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are so worried about them not paying their
> way....let them become legal immigrants..overnight
> they will pay their taxes as a true sign of
> patriotism.


For someone who spent so much time around experts and professionals, you didn't learn much.

What benefit is there to legalize some 12M to 15M illiterate and unskilled illegal aliens, earning about $26,000 a year, who bring children into the world they can't afford and then suck our coffers dry for a thousand dollars per family of income tax?

The alternative is to stick with the program that has worked for several years years - grant visas to educated LEGAL immigrants who bring "in demand" skills and the capability to earn upwards to 6 figures and contribute $10,000+ to the tax base/system ... AND ... need nothing from the social services coffers.

With E-Verify and a little more of a heavy hand on businesses, tax payers wouldn't even have to spend money rounding up the illegals and shippng them out - when jobs and benefits are cut off, they will leave on their own - but will no doubt leave the kiddies behind - after all, they will have no monetary value back in their countries.

Illegal aliens = Contribute negative to the system as they suck the coffers dry.

Legal Immigrants = Contribute considerably to the system and take nothng from the coffers.

Nice try Vince, but no cigar!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2008 04:32PM by Junes.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never worked an honest days work in my
> life. So what...doesnt mean I dont respect trades
> men/women and the work they do. As a member of
> management I have been excluded from joining a
> union...doesnt mean I dont see the historical
> value of unions.

LOL! you are a manager, it explains soooo much!

go away and make a powerpoint slide show or something.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
Attachments:

Gravis..and what are you besides a drain on your parents?

Junes..if you think this country is going to round up 12M to 15M illegal immigrants you are out of your mind. Not even genious boy Bush supported that idea....and no one ever will. So we might as well grant them legal status and get them paying taxes. Maybe if illegals realize they'll have to pay taxes that'll keep them out of the country!

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Junes..if you think this country is going to round
> up 12M to 15M illegal immigrants you are out of
> your mind. Not even genious boy Bush supported
> that idea....and no one ever will. So we might as
> well grant them legal status and get them paying
> taxes. Maybe if illegals realize they'll have to
> pay taxes that'll keep them out of the country!

If we deny them employment, most will deport themselves.

HooLeo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> If we deny them employment, most will deport
> themselves.

very true....but you see...the thing is we need them!

HooLeo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If we deny them employment, most will deport
> themselves.

+1

---

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gravis..and what are you besides a drain on your
> parents?

to clear things up, im a computer programmer and why do you think i live with my parents?

---

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HooLeo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >> If we deny them employment, most will deport
> > themselves.
>
> very true....but you see...the thing is we need
> them!

we didnt need them before so why do we need them now? seriously, it's not like these jobs didnt exist until they came. what you are describing is known as FUD.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."