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Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: fcps parent ()
Date: August 20, 2013 01:24PM

Is this a joke? Did someone hack the FCPS site???

A message from FAIRFAX COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS

This communication is sent to all parents of FCPS high school seniors.

The Fairfax County School Board passed a resolution in 2012 that stated it is a goal of the School Board to achieve later start times for high school students. As part of the ongoing discussion about later start times, the Board also directed the Superintendent’s office to provide an option for high school seniors to opt out of their first class of the day. Since student schedules are already established for 2013-14, this option will be provided to seniors only on a limited basis this year, but will be incorporated as an option when student schedules are developed for the 2014-15 school year. Bus transportation will not be provided to any student who chooses this scheduling option.

For 2013-14, seniors who are on track for graduation and do not need their first class of the day to graduate may elect to drop up to two first period classes. Both the parent or guardian and the high school principal must give written permission to seniors who wish to use this option. Seniors who wish to drop their first period class(es) should contact their high school counselor to complete the appropriate permission form.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: aasdfasfasd ()
Date: August 20, 2013 01:27PM

fcps parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For 2013-14, seniors who are on track for
> graduation and do not need their first class of
> the day to graduate may elect to drop up to two
> first period classes. Both the parent or guardian
> and the high school principal must give written
> permission to seniors who wish to use this option.
> Seniors who wish to drop their first period
> class(es) should contact their high school
> counselor to complete the appropriate permission
> form.

And lose those additional credits? No way, Jose!

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Guidance ()
Date: August 20, 2013 09:40PM

Colleges will not think students are competitive who are taking a few classes because they want to "sleep in." A typical course load is 7 classes. Try applying to JMU and explaining your kid only took a half load cause they wanted to sleep later. Good thinking, FCPS. They should just move the school start time to 8:30.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Jef3r ()
Date: August 21, 2013 12:34AM

Well, I read about the resolution to move the start times last year. So, that part is legit. I never heard anything about kid's being able to drop their first period though. I just learned that at the middle school I'm starting at this year (as a teacher) there are kids who are allowed to skip their first class and come in late BUT they take an online class to make up for it. So they still get their credit and they're still responsible for the material. My guess is that this is ultimately how the county plans on making it work so that the few kids who want to start later can.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Joes ()
Date: August 21, 2013 12:54AM

Jef3r Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I read about the resolution to move the
> start times last year. So, that part is legit. I
> never heard anything about kid's being able to
> drop their first period though. I just learned
> that at the middle school I'm starting at this
> year (as a teacher) there are kids who are allowed
> to skip their first class and come in late BUT
> they take an online class to make up for it. So
> they still get their credit and they're still
> responsible for the material. My guess is that
> this is ultimately how the county plans on making
> it work so that the few kids who want to start
> later can.

Then the county can offer all courses online, fire the teachers, and not have to worry about public transportation.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: nonissue ()
Date: August 21, 2013 01:14AM

Loudoun offers early release, so you either don't take one elective course, study hall, or both. It's a non issue with universities, I along with many of my former classmates who attend four year schools did this.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: 9702 ()
Date: August 21, 2013 02:04AM

This has been implemented in my kids' high school in Charlotte, NC. They have the option to come in one block (class) late in the morning or to leave one block early in the afternoon. Our school (like most) is way over capacity and there are very few open physical seats in any class whether it is a required or elective class.
- Seniors many times have plenty of credits (aside from Senior English/Math and Science) to graduate with and simply take lower level electives to fill their schedules in their senior year. They are not interested in "Music Appreciation" nor do they appreciate the 14 year old Freshman in these classes. It is probable that their colleges of choice could care less about Music Appreciation either.
By allowing the seniors to not be forced to take these electives, seats are opened up in these classes. Taking the seniors out the mix relieves the class size and opens up scheduling options for all students.
- We have students who use this early dismissal to open up options for their after school jobs. Some of these jobs are career oriented and are more beneficial on the college app than any elective they might take in school.
- Our Seniors participate in the option and they do go to college....Chapel Hill, NC State, Univ. Of South Carolina etc. Therefore, if the student is proving themselves in all aspects of school and other activities and choose to take this senior option, they are not being penalized and frowned upon by the colleges.
- In reality, it benefits the school district by opening these seats up and that is probably why they really started it in the first place. This might be a trend for schools systems with declining budgets and increasing enrollments so the colleges (at least your state schools) have got to be on board.
- Sorry that I used "Music Appreciation" as an example...I am sure it is a really exciting class....somewhere.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors - NO
Posted by: Elementary school ()
Date: August 21, 2013 06:20AM

There are not enough buses for high schoolers to go to school later -- without making elementary schoolers go to school earlier. Everyone knows that elementary children need 2 more hours of sleep per night that teens do.

Take away the electronics at night and have the teens go to bed earlier -- they will be fine.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Pathetic ()
Date: August 21, 2013 06:39AM

Okay - we wonder why the US is not competitive

Here's a unique opportunity to get ahead on college, actually learn something reinforce a weaker area or try a subject that may broaden you

Or you can just lie in

Someone needs to explain to the poor little dears that they're not competing against their classmates - they're competing against their opposite numbers in Germany, Japan, China and South Korea. That's the key to real jobs in a real global economy

Pathetic

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Let's see ()
Date: August 21, 2013 07:19AM

We are going tO have more teen drivers on the road taking less HS classes and no parents watching them in the AM.

I bet car crashes and teen pregnancy rates will go up in Fairfax.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Flying Squirrel ()
Date: August 21, 2013 10:13PM

do high school kids in Korea, Finland, Germany, etc. get up at 5:30 am? just asking. I really don't know.
I get up at 5:30 am to go to work and I'm exhausted by Friday and I"m not a wimp. I think it is plain wrong for teenagers to get up at 5:30 am. I have two teenagers. I can send them to bed at 9 pm all I want, and they cannot get to sleep before 10 pm. My experience with my two teens is validated by a teen sleep article in a recent National Geographic article. There is a scientific PROOF that explains how teen brains and sleep cycles are different than adult or toddler brains and sleep cycles, and that you damage their and sleep patterns by forcing them to get up so early....it also says that teens' academic and sports performance is adversely impacted when parents force teens to go to bed early in order to get up early.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Road Musings ()
Date: August 21, 2013 10:58PM

Flying Squirrel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> do high school kids in Korea, Finland, Germany,
> etc. get up at 5:30 am? just asking. I really
> don't know.
> I get up at 5:30 am to go to work and I'm
> exhausted by Friday and I"m not a wimp. I think it
> is plain wrong for teenagers to get up at 5:30 am.
> I have two teenagers. I can send them to bed at 9
> pm all I want, and they cannot get to sleep before
> 10 pm. My experience with my two teens is
> validated by a teen sleep article in a recent
> National Geographic article. There is a scientific
> PROOF that explains how teen brains and sleep
> cycles are different than adult or toddler brains
> and sleep cycles, and that you damage their and
> sleep patterns by forcing them to get up so
> early....it also says that teens' academic and
> sports performance is adversely impacted when
> parents force teens to go to bed early in order to
> get up early.

I actually agree. The start times are insane. There's a mountain of research that suggests adolescents and teenagers just aren't "ready" at that time of day to learn. Making it later might spread out some of the traffic too, although I could see that going both ways.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: August 21, 2013 11:53PM

Flying Squirrel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get up at 5:30 am to go to work and I'm
> exhausted by Friday and I"m not a wimp. I think it
> is plain wrong for teenagers to get up at 5:30 am.
> I have two teenagers. I can send them to bed at 9
> pm all I want, and they cannot get to sleep before
> 10 pm. My experience with my two teens is
> validated by a teen sleep article in a recent
> National Geographic article. There is a scientific
> PROOF that explains how teen brains and sleep
> cycles are different than adult or toddler brains
> and sleep cycles, and that you damage their and
> sleep patterns by forcing them to get up so
> early....it also says that teens' academic and
> sports performance is adversely impacted when
> parents force teens to go to bed early in order to
> get up early.

All well and good, but it is a zero sum game. You move high school kids start time later, you will either have middle or elementary kids starting earlier, or you will have them coming home later. Do you really want middle or elementary school kids coming home after dark in the winter? You start high school later, then it will end later. That means less opportunities for after school activities or employment. That also means less time to do homework or school related projects.

Then there is the other argument. 5:30 is awful early...unless you adjust your lifestyle.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: possible? ()
Date: August 22, 2013 05:52AM

Maybe high school kids don't need school buses? That is what is determining the start times it seems. I would wager that school buses do not exist in Korea, China, Germany, etc. ??? Students could walk, take public transportation (which urbanization makes more prevalent), carpool, etc.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: No one reads ()
Date: August 22, 2013 06:23AM

Did anyone even read the article? It says if they don't NEED the class. Like a silly art class or music class. Some kids even do the stupid option of taking PE after 10th grade.

So, if it's an elective class, that they DON'T need the credit for, they can drop it. Also I'm sure if it's NOT an elective class, they may be able to switch the class to a later time.

I think this is a great option and wish they had it when I was in FCPS. The already said buses will not be provided so that's a non-issue.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Yes, however ()
Date: August 22, 2013 07:28AM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then there is the other argument. 5:30 is awful
> early...unless you adjust your lifestyle.


It is not as easy as just "adjust your lifestyle." FCPS loads on a lot of homework which takes hours to complete each evening. Many students do not get to bed until midnight or later on a regular basis. As Flying Squirrel says, the sleep cycle for teens is different than for younger kids. Teens sleep in much later when given the chance to sleep normally.

As for Let' see's concern about car crashes and teen pregnancy. If the kids are more rested, then that will probably reduce the number of crashes. The later start times are being used in TX and they have found the teen pregnancies have gone down. The reason is that the teens will choose to sleep in in the morning and they get home too late to fool around before mom and dad come home.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: August 22, 2013 12:15PM

Yes, however Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is not as easy as just "adjust your lifestyle."
> FCPS loads on a lot of homework which takes hours
> to complete each evening. Many students do not
> get to bed until midnight or later on a regular
> basis.

Which gets back to my first point. If under the current system high school kids are getting to bed at midnight, then what time are they going to be going to bed if the kids are getting to bed an hour later? Supporters of the later start time will say "About the same time, because kids aren't starting their homework until after dinner". If that is the case, the problem isn't that kids are having to get up too early; The problem is that they are starting their homework too late.

> As Flying Squirrel says, the sleep cycle
> for teens is different than for younger kids.
> Teens sleep in much later when given the chance to
> sleep normally.

Some people are naturally going to sleep until 5 or 6. For others waking up at 10 will still be too early. If you are starting school at 8:30 kids are going to be getting up at 6:45-7:00, which means you are still talking about adjusted sleep schedules for many if not most teens. So we aren't talking about whether to adjust teens' sleep schedules, but rather what to adjust the sleep schedule to. And as others have suggested, the later school start times may mean many kids will simply adjust their bed times so that they don't end up getting any more sleep.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Yes, however ()
Date: August 22, 2013 12:52PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, however Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is not as easy as just "adjust your
> lifestyle."
> > FCPS loads on a lot of homework which takes
> hours
> > to complete each evening. Many students do not
> > get to bed until midnight or later on a regular
> > basis.
>
> Which gets back to my first point. If under the
> current system high school kids are getting to bed
> at midnight, then what time are they going to be
> going to bed if the kids are getting to bed an
> hour later? Supporters of the later start time
> will say "About the same time, because kids aren't
> starting their homework until after dinner". If
> that is the case, the problem isn't that kids are
> having to get up too early; The problem is that
> they are starting their homework too late.

No actually the problem is with the amount of homework that is required at FCPS. The homework workload needs to be cutback. Massive amounts of homework does not equal success in school, nor life in general. But that is a discussion for a different subject.


> > As Flying Squirrel says, the sleep cycle
> > for teens is different than for younger kids.
> > Teens sleep in much later when given the chance
> to
> > sleep normally.
>
> Some people are naturally going to sleep until 5
> or 6. For others waking up at 10 will still be
> too early. If you are starting school at 8:30
> kids are going to be getting up at 6:45-7:00,
> which means you are still talking about adjusted
> sleep schedules for many if not most teens. So we
> aren't talking about whether to adjust teens'
> sleep schedules, but rather what to adjust the
> sleep schedule to. And as others have suggested,
> the later school start times may mean many kids
> will simply adjust their bed times so that they
> don't end up getting any more sleep.


This system of late starting times for high schoolers has been tried and worked in many other school districts around the country. I don't see why it won't work here. Some major benefits are "significant reduction in school dropout rates, less depression, and students reported earning higher grades."
http://www.cehd.umn.edu/research/highlights/Sleep/

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Obvious Recognizer ()
Date: August 22, 2013 02:06PM

What is the count up to now of those who have gone through FCPS high schools with "early" start times and then gone on to academic and professional success? What is the count of those who look back and blame their failures in later life on the fact that they had to get up so early back in high school days? What about all those farm kids who have always gotten up at such hours and earlier in order to do chores before heading off to catch the school bus? That's Norman Rockwell painting stuff there. I'm afraid some people here just have their noses out of joint over nothing.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: August 22, 2013 02:25PM

Yes homework loads can be oppressive FOR SOME. Others can handle them. One of my three kids managed to take all the honors and AP classes possible, worked a part time job, did two sports a year and a couple of non-school extracuriculars, and still get to bed by midnight almost every night. I doubt either of the others could do this, WHICH IS WHY WE DON'T LET THEM. If a kid is disciplined about homework and still is working past midnight, perhaps it is time to revisit the kid's course selection or after school activities.

Also you did not address the question of how kids who are DISCIPLINED about homework are going to get more sleep by moving school start and ending times back an hour to an hour and a half.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Yes, however ()
Date: August 22, 2013 04:04PM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes homework loads can be oppressive FOR SOME.
> Others can handle them. One of my three kids
> managed to take all the honors and AP classes
> possible, worked a part time job, did two sports a
> year and a couple of non-school extracuriculars,
> and still get to bed by midnight almost every
> night. I doubt either of the others could do
> this, WHICH IS WHY WE DON'T LET THEM. If a kid is
> disciplined about homework and still is working
> past midnight, perhaps it is time to revisit the
> kid's course selection or after school
> activities.
>
> Also you did not address the question of how kids
> who are DISCIPLINED about homework are going to
> get more sleep by moving school start and ending
> times back an hour to an hour and a half.


Why don't you look at other school systems that have implemented the late time change and see how their students who are "DISCIPLINED" about homework managed to be successful and how it affected their sleep. This is not a new concept and has worked quite well in several states. I don't think the "DISCIPLINED" students will suffer.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: pathetic ()
Date: August 22, 2013 06:45PM

If they can work out a change in the overall schedule, that may make sense. But this is sad and stupid. Let's have thousands of 17 year-olds with extra time on their hands as mom and dad go to work and before they come home. Kids will go to school at 9 way after mom and dad go to work, and will come home at 2, hours before mom and dad come home. No supervision in the morning, no supervision in the afternoon. Anybody see a problem with this? Good job fcps.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Leesburg ()
Date: August 22, 2013 07:15PM

HS school hours are from 9:00AM-3:48PM.

I wish FCPS would adopt something like this.

Our son is in 7th grade and needs to get up at 5:30AM to get on the bus by 6:00AM. This is too early for a 12 year old.

He goes to a secondary school. Grades 7-12.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Yes, however ()
Date: August 22, 2013 09:01PM

pathetic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they can work out a change in the overall
> schedule, that may make sense. But this is sad and
> stupid. Let's have thousands of 17 year-olds with
> extra time on their hands as mom and dad go to
> work and before they come home. Kids will go to
> school at 9 way after mom and dad go to work, and
> will come home at 2, hours before mom and dad come
> home. No supervision in the morning, no
> supervision in the afternoon. Anybody see a
> problem with this? Good job fcps.


Believe me, kids will elect to sleep in for the extra hour or so. I'm not sure who you get your information from, but right now school gets out at 2:05. They will not get out earlier so they can be home by 2:00. The seniors that elect to take advantage of this will not get out any earlier. The parents are involved in the decision and it must be approved by them and the school.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Sleeping in ()
Date: August 22, 2013 09:03PM

Getting up at 5:30AM is too early. I want him to sleep in. That is the whole point of changing the school hours.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: jef3r ()
Date: August 22, 2013 11:18PM

Leesburg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HS school hours are from 9:00AM-3:48PM.
>
> I wish FCPS would adopt something like this.
>
> Our son is in 7th grade and needs to get up at
> 5:30AM to get on the bus by 6:00AM. This is too
> early for a 12 year old.
>
> He goes to a secondary school. Grades 7-12.

Why is your kid getting on a bus at 6am? The bus route is an hour? The earliest start time I can think of for kids around here is 7:10am. Is there a secondary school that starts earlier than that?

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: jef3r ()
Date: August 22, 2013 11:26PM

Personally, I think offering an alternative schedule for the high schoolers is a great idea.

The later start times makes such a massive impact on the after school lives of some of these kids (jobs and sports) that I really don't see it ever working.

And if I recall correctly, a lot of the places who were able to implement this successfully are much smaller school districts who didn't have the transportation burden that FCPS has. When you've got kids who live 30-45 minutes away from their base school due to how far flung some of the homes in this county are, it's always going to be tough to get them where they need to be at a reasonable time.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Buzzy ()
Date: August 23, 2013 12:47AM

FCPS students are K-12 -- not just high school.

There is no way FCPS is going to shorten the number of hours of sleep for K-6 children -- who need even more sleep than a teen. There are just not enough buses to allow high schoolers to arrive later without making K-6 children arrive at school even earlier. Not gonna happen.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: VOR ()
Date: August 23, 2013 06:11AM

Regarding starting HS later: A few high schools have collaboration days once a week - teachers come in regular time, students an hour later. Those students who can take advantage of the hour, i.e. provide own transportation, score no more than 15-20 minutes extra sleep as the traffic an hour later is so much heavier. So rather than snuggled in bed, most are dozing at traffic lights. Many are also tardy. Their minds say - I have an extra hour! But the congestion on the roads an hour later means they have to add minutes to their commutes. And with regard to commutes - those who advocate later start times have the luxury of living relatively close to the schools. No so for teachers. Someone should survey the distance many teachers travel - you see, not everyone can afford to live in Fairfax County. Route 66 and 50 are laden with commuters from Winchester, Warrenton, Leesburg and from MD and DC in the other direction. Those employees would not be getting more sleep, but more traffic both to and from school. The school board voting to do yet ANOTHER study on sleep deprivation is the real crime here. It falls into turf field waste of funds. With regard to the ability to skip the first block classes - I predict very few will take advantage of it as so many students go for the advanced diploma options and look forward to elective classes that are more meaningful to their lives than an extra hour in bed.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: To:Jef3r ()
Date: August 23, 2013 07:50AM

No lie! 6AM pick up. Our school stop is the farthest away from the school. We live off of Henderson Rd and our kids go to Robinson Secondary.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: soco ()
Date: August 23, 2013 11:12PM

Then go to South County, your travel will be far less. Better yet go to Osbourne in PW County. Either way less. You chose to live out there knowing far from any high school in Fairfax...live with it.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: RecentGradFCPS ()
Date: August 24, 2013 02:20AM

I like this. I was sooo sleep deprived when I went to school. It was hard to pay attention/learn.

Now I pick much later classes in college and I do a lot better.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: CollegeStudent ()
Date: August 24, 2013 03:48AM

I went to Robinson, took the full IB curriculum, played two sports (one at a time) and did band. Graduated June 2012. I'd say most nights I got home between 7 and 8, then ate dinner, then did homework. Got to sleep at around 2 am most nights, had to wake up at 5:45 to get ready for the bus that came at 6:20. As a senior I could get up a little later because I drove, but it was awful regardless. If you have any commitments outside of school and are in advanced classes, the last two years of high school are terrible. I was sleep-deprived almost every single day. They need to figure out a way to change something, since almost all of my friends had similar problems. It is extremely hard to focus on advanced subjects when you have to fight to stay awake.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Soco sounds jealous ()
Date: August 24, 2013 10:25AM

We bought a nice house in this same area and love it. We bought the house before we had kids. We knew we were in a great school district. I do not know a single peron who looked at what time schools times start before they had kids. Plus boundaries change.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors - NO
Posted by: frankie frederick ()
Date: August 25, 2013 10:12AM

Elementary kids go to bed by 8 am and also naturally wake up much earlier than a teen regardless of what time each goes to sleep. Generally, a high school age student is not physically able to fall asleep that early or even 10 pm. My son does not have any electronics at night and he generally is asleep by 11 pm or midnight. THe bigger issue is that he struggles to get up at 6 am to catch the 6:30 bus. Teens sleep clocks are different. It has nothing to do with the number of hours of sleep. Our teens grades are failing because they are not awake for first block. Their brains do wake up by second block though.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: bitch bitch bitch ()
Date: August 25, 2013 11:01AM

If you don't like the school you get for free, put the kids in a school you pay for (and therefore control) or homeschool them.

Next, you'll be crying about the hours the artificial turf is available.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Oh Well ()
Date: August 25, 2013 11:16AM

My middle schooler had to get the bus at 6:45 for a school start time of 7:35 and the school was 2.5 miles from our house. This require my middle school student to wake up at 6:20 or earlier each day.

I ended up driving for the entire 8th grade. Did not wake up until 7:10 am, 25 minutes after the bus had left the stop. That gave almost 1 hour extra sleep.

We are 1 mile from the high school and my high school daughter gets up every morning at 5:30 for a 7:20 start time. She has her hour of beauty, eats a liesurely breakfast, reads her online books while eating breakfast and drying her hair and dresses nice for school. As she has found she is 100% awake for the first part of the day as she has been up for 2 hours. Many kids sleeping in classes, not her. She is very disaplined and is usually in bed by 10-10:30 pm.

This is my kid that had 4 jobs this Summer that also included getting up at 4:30 in the morning to open a health club swimming pool at 5 am a few times a week. The health club managment cannot get the 20 somethings to be this responsible.

I do not have to worry about her the Freshman year of College. She has great time management that has taken years for her to hone and master.

She does from time to time crash due to her crazy schedule and workload, but will rebound and adjust as needed.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: whenwillsomethingbedone ()
Date: August 25, 2013 01:41PM

I'm currently a high school student, and I tend to find it impossible to sleep earlier than midnight, 1 am even. During last year, I usually averaged 2-4 hours of sleep every night, depending on my workload. To make it clear, I only use electronics (i.e. my personal computer) during the night to complete my homework. I don't even have a Facebook (or Myspace or Twitter, for that matter) account. I had to get up around 6 am everyday to catch a 6:30 am bus. Delaying the start time of my high school by just one hour would be a great help. This problem's been getting worse every year-in elementary school, when the start time was 9:00 am, I went to bed fairly early, about 9, 10 pm, and got roughly 9-10 hours of sleep every night. Of course, my workload was relatively light back then. In middle school, I usually averaged 5-6 hours of sleep every night because by then I had begun sleeping later and my school's start time was 7:25 am. My workload was also increasing annually and consuming the greater part if not all of my nights. Many people in my high school have complained that they have to regularly stay until past midnight in order to complete all their homework. As for myself, my brain doesn't fully wake up until 6th period (10:25 am-12:35 am), and the effects of chronic sleep deprivation haven't exactly done wonders for my concentration or ability to retain information in school. I don't understand how people can have such a blasé attitude about this, saying, "Oh, suck it up," or "Just turn your kids' electronics off during the night and have them go to bed early, problem solved"-it's not quite that simple. If it was, so many parents and students wouldn't be agitating about having high schools start later.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: DO SOMETHING ()
Date: August 26, 2013 07:26PM

If you hate this new schedule option and find it unfair for some Seniors who will NOT qualify to take the morning off, email or call your elected member of the Board of Supervisors AND your elected member of the School Board.

They work for you and will listen if enough people complain!

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: oy vey ()
Date: August 26, 2013 07:33PM

DO SOMETHING Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you hate this new schedule option and find it
> unfair for some Seniors who will NOT qualify to
> take the morning off, email or call your elected
> member of the Board of Supervisors AND your
> elected member of the School Board.
>
> They work for you and will listen if enough people
> complain!


Didn't your mommy ever tell you that life is not fair? Stop being a dope.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Parental engagement ()
Date: August 27, 2013 02:12AM

Parents simply need to have their high school children go to bed by 10:30 p.m. to get enough sleep.

Take the electronics out of their bedroom.

Millions of U.S. teens have grown up this way and slept enough and gone to school early. We all made it fine. Your children will too.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Whine, whine, whine ()
Date: August 27, 2013 09:38AM

Parental engagement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Parents simply need to have their high school
> children go to bed by 10:30 p.m. to get enough
> sleep.

Says the person posting at 2:12AM.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: OverseaObserver ()
Date: August 27, 2013 04:36PM

The problem is due to "Night Guy":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Cz-LK16g4

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: AnotherParent ()
Date: August 27, 2013 10:53PM

to Parental engagement ()

your an idiot. Review the facts first. I went to one of the open discussions held by fairfax to discuss this. At my table the only people against moving the times back had a vested interest, one was a coach and thought it would affect sports, and the other was a teacher and thought it would change her hours.

I doubt any of these simple minded pseudo parents that say just go to bed earlier probably never go to work at 5:45 am like the high school kids in fairfax. Because the roads are significantly less used then.

And it is NOT a zero sum game, the start times could be pushed back relatively easily. Other school districts have done this successfully.

Please learn the facts first.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: August 28, 2013 11:41AM

AnotherParent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I went to
> one of the open discussions held by fairfax to
> discuss this. At my table the only people against
> moving the times back had a vested interest, one
> was a coach and thought it would affect sports,
> and the other was a teacher and thought it would
> change her hours.

I went to one last time around. Our group started out evenly divided between strongly opposed and mildly favorable to a revised schedule, with one FCPS plant. By the time we were done the FCPS guy had left and everyone else was opposed. Same thing happened at most of the groups. We know this because we started circulating people between the groups to find out what each group felt.

The reason for the opposition was as you say vested interests. You had parents with HS kids in HS sports, who had after school jobs, or who participated in afternoon non-school activities whose kids were going to be negatively impacted. You had parents who were going to have to put their younger kids in after school daycare because an older sibling would not be home when elementary school let out. You had parents of middle and high school students who were concerned about their kids skipping school because the late start times would mean they wouldn't be at home to make sure their kids got to school, or to take their kids if they missed the bus. You had parents who were concerned that the new schedule would impact their kids tutoring. You had parents of middle school kids who didn't want their kids getting home from school after dark. You had parents of elementary school kids who were going to leave for school much earlier or later in order to accommodate bus needs. Etc. What happened is that as discussions developed almost everyone in our group realized they had some vested interest in keeping things the way they were.

Of course we weren't talking about whether we favored later start times for high school students in theory. We were talking about whether we approved of a specific plan that would let high schools start later. The one useful thing the FCPS plant did do was to make clear to people in our group just how much of a role transportation played in the proposed plan. You have busses that are making three runs in the morning and in the afternoon, and in some cases also making mid-day kindergarten runs. The logistics of implementing later high school start times here are different than the logistics in Loudoun, where they have later start times.

> Please learn the facts first.

Please learn ALL the facts, rather than just those which support your position. The assumption of some who favor later start times is that those who oppose them are ignorant of the benefits. Truth is that we have heard the arguments, but many of us simply feel the trade offs aren't worth it. There are parents whose kids don't get to bed until after midnight because the kids are carrying four advanced courses. I'm sure these parents are aware that if their kid was only in two, the kid would easily finish homework in time to be in bed before midnight. They have their kid do more because they see the harder courses are worth the lost sleep. There are also kids who are at Rec Centers at 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning for swim programs in the winter for the same reasons. If Fairfax permitted high school seniors to pass on their first class of the morning, many parents of better students would still insist their kid carry a full load, because taking that extra class may make a difference in what school they get into.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: kids are wimps ()
Date: August 28, 2013 12:02PM

Wah! My kid has to get up early!
Wah! My kid has too much homework!

More evidence of the pussification of America.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: nine to five ()
Date: August 28, 2013 06:02PM

It is a good thing to let students show up when they feel like it, that way they will be well prepared for the real world.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: govt jobs ()
Date: August 28, 2013 07:35PM

nine to five Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a good thing to let students show up when
> they feel like it, that way they will be well
> prepared for the real world.
AMEN

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Effective Parenting ()
Date: August 29, 2013 07:05AM

Amazing how many parents think the issue and the resolution is a later school start time for teenagers!

The issue is to be an effective parent and explain choices and consequences to your children and have them learn about life. They simply have to go to bed earlier. They have to turn off all smartphones and tablets each night at 10 p.m. Heads on pillows no later than 10:30 p.m. on school nights.

Problem solved. End of story.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Effective Parenting Not! ()
Date: August 29, 2013 07:17AM

Amazing how many parents think the issue and the resolution is to simply explain choices and consequences to your children and have them learn about life. They simply have to go to bed earlier. They have to turn off all smartphones and tablets each night at 10 p.m. Heads on pillows no later than 10:30 p.m. on school nights. Because teenagers will obey their parents like the von Trappe children.

Come into the real world and embrace a proven solution that is working with great results in other school districts around the country.

> Problem solved. End of story.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Effective Parenting ()
Date: August 29, 2013 07:39AM

Your children are children until age 18. They really need engaged and effective parents.

It is a horrible situation if you have lost all ability to guide and influence your children's decisions and understanding of consequences as teenagers. While they are living in your home and under your guidance you are responsible for what they are learning about life (and what they are not learning if you don't talk about it). They need and want this parental guidance -- if delivered in an effective way.

Parents are paying for the electronics, the smartphones, the tablets, the WiFi and Internet connection service. You have the absolute right to lay down the law on the use of these tools and devices. They should not be used while the family is dining. They must be turned off each night at 10 p.m. Take the devices away if the rules are broken. If parents don't set these rules, then the kids on their own will stay up until 2 a.m. every night texting and messaging, and be exhausted the next day at school.

This is an awful outcome. But the problem has NOTHING to do with pushing back the high school start times by 45 minutes. It is all related to effective parenting.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 29, 2013 07:58AM

Parents are replaced by peers as the number one influence in a child's life starting at about age 10. If you are lucky, that phase will end by about age 25, and if you were able to get some good basic values laid down over those first ten years, you can end up with a stable and successful adult. People are simply fooling themselves if they actually believe they have control over adolescents.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Effective Parenting Not! ()
Date: August 29, 2013 09:16AM

Effective Parenting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your children are children until age 18. They
> really need engaged and effective parents.
>
> It is a horrible situation if you have lost all
> ability to guide and influence your children's
> decisions and understanding of consequences as
> teenagers. While they are living in your home and
> under your guidance you are responsible for what
> they are learning about life (and what they are
> not learning if you don't talk about it). They
> need and want this parental guidance -- if
> delivered in an effective way.
>
> Parents are paying for the electronics, the
> smartphones, the tablets, the WiFi and Internet
> connection service. You have the absolute right
> to lay down the law on the use of these tools and
> devices. They should not be used while the family
> is dining. They must be turned off each night at
> 10 p.m. Take the devices away if the rules are
> broken. If parents don't set these rules, then
> the kids on their own will stay up until 2 a.m.
> every night texting and messaging, and be
> exhausted the next day at school.
>
> This is an awful outcome. But the problem has
> NOTHING to do with pushing back the high school
> start times by 45 minutes. It is all related to
> effective parenting.


So the problem is the electronics. Take them away at 10PM and magically the 17 year old will go to bed and sleep. What color is the sun in your world? Teenagers stayed up late before the Internet and all the bad electronics that you blame. They will do so after your so called "effective parenting."

But what if they need their computer or the Internet to finish their homework when it is past 10PM? Nay nay you would say, that is not "effective parenting" whatever that is in your rose colored world.

Late start times work, there are many benefits to it and you need to get your head out of the sand.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 29, 2013 10:25AM

Later start times are totally impractical in the broader world that long ago grew up around early rising and early start times. They will never be adopted. All the rest is the honking of so many Canada geese.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 29, 2013 11:01AM

...and these precious little darlings will soon enough be pulling all-nighters and out drinking and partying till dawn. And heaven help them if they should go on to grad school. A little practice at dealing with sleep-deprivation now will serve them well in the long-run.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Realist ain't ()
Date: August 29, 2013 02:50PM

The Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Later start times are totally impractical in the
> broader world that long ago grew up around early
> rising and early start times. They will never be
> adopted. All the rest is the honking of so many
> Canada geese.


That is a lot of generalized horse crap. Do you have any facts to support your stupidity?

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: wake up people ()
Date: August 29, 2013 07:53PM

Later start times are a completely different issue. The board is now allowing seniors (and only seniors) who don't need 7 credits for their diploma (most don't their senior year) to take 1 or 2 fewer classes and come in to school late. They will have to transport themselves. Requests by parents and students have already been made at all the high schools. This is a nice solution for the students who have to work late at night to help support their families (assuming they can transport themselves...many students who have to work have no transportation options if they don't live close enough to walk).
Beyond that, the effects will be simple: fewer students taking electives (some of which are very valuable in spite of the reference to music appreciation above), fewer students taking AP electives, and a reduction in staffing at high schools to accommodate that. A huge benefit of the high schools in this district is that they offer so many electives and students can explore various fields and earn college credit BEFORE they have to start paying for it. If staffing numbers decrease (which they will if many kids take advantage of this option next year) then there will not be as many electives offered. FCPS is well-known nation-wide for its strengths: turning out students who can (and do) excel well beyond the national average. Will this lead to less capable students? Only time will tell...in the mean time, there will not be a change to the start times of schools. Regardless of how a teenager's sleep cycles work, it is not logically possible. Each day still only has 24 hours, and students are only going to see everything pushed back in relation to start times (like jobs and sports) and then LOSE time by spending more of it in traffic during the peak of rush hour. I'm all for advocating, but if those that will not let the sleep initiative die would refocus their energy on making some actual improvement to the school system, we could all benefit.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Do you ()
Date: August 29, 2013 09:04PM

The Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Later start times are totally impractical in the
> broader world that long ago grew up around early
> rising and early start times. They will never be
> adopted. All the rest is the honking of so many
> Canada geese.


Do you have teen age kids?

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Get Real Please ()
Date: August 29, 2013 10:05PM

To Bill.N.

School is about an EDUCATION not sports. I am tired of wasting resources and arguments for sports. An education is the focus. Mutiple studies show that adolescents need adequate sleep, that they have trouble getting to sleep as they get older, and that memory is impacted if you do not get adequate sleep.

please take a little bit of time to understand the research before the preaching.

Research shows that adolescents require at least as much sleep as they did as children, generally 8 1/2 to 9 1/4 hours each night (Carskadon et al., 1980). Key changes in sleep patterns and needs during puberty can contribute to excessive sleepiness in adolescents, which can impair daytime functioning. First, daytime sleepiness can increase during adolescence, even when teens’ schedules allow for optimal amounts of sleep (Carskadon, Vieri, & Acebo, 1993). Second, most adolescents undergo a sleep phase delay, which means a tendency toward later times for both falling asleep and waking up. Research shows the typical adolescent’s natural time to fall asleep may be 11 pm or later; because of this change in their internal clocks, teens may feel wide awake at bedtime, even when they are exhausted (Wolfson & Carskadon, 1998). This leads to sleep deprivation in many teens who must wake up early for school, and thus do not get the 8 1/2 - 9 1/4 hours of sleep that they need. It also causes irregular sleep patterns that can hurt the quality of sleep, since the weekend sleep schedule often ends up being much different from the weekday schedule as teens try to catch up on lost sleep (Dahl & Carskadon, 1995).

These findings, reported in the June 30, 2005, issue of the journal Neuroscience and currently published on-line, might help to explain why children -- infants, in particular -- require much more sleep than adults, and also suggest a role for sleep in the rehabilitation of stroke patients and other individuals who have suffered brain injuries. "Our previous studies demonstrated that a period of sleep could help people improve their performance of 'memory tasks,' such as playing piano scales," explains the study's lead author Matthew Walker, PhD, director of BIDMC's Sleep and Neuroimaging Laboratory. "But we didn't know exactly how or why this was happening.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: I Started at 8:30 every day ()
Date: August 29, 2013 10:11PM

I went to high school in PA in the 70's. I started at 8:30 every day. Left the house at 8:00. There is a big difference between leaving at 5:45 and 8:00.

What time did your high school start at?

I have never heard of any other students having to get up at 5:30 to go to high school before coming to fairfax.

In North Carolina, the schools start at 8:15 and kids get up at 7:30 , traffic is not insane like fairfax.

This is just foolish to have our children go through high school like this.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: August 30, 2013 01:02AM

Get Real Please Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Bill.N.

> please take a little bit of time to understand the
> research before the preaching.

I HAVE DONE THE RESEARCH. I am veteran of the last fight over school start times. I have friends on the other side, and we've probably been debating this issue for 10 years. Stop assuming that opposition is based on ignorance.

How much sleep a teen needs varies from kid to kid. Some can easily get by on less than 6 hours. Others can't make it on 10. Sleeping and waking times can also vary. Some are naturally early risers. Others have a hard time getting to sleep by midnight. Some make up sleep on weekends and others can't. Some can keep going all day, and others function better if they can get a nap. Some can go from full speed to sleep and others need to unwind for a long time before they can sleep.

So let me ask you this GRP: What would your kid have to give up so that he or she could still get enough sleep with the current school schedule?

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 30, 2013 08:37AM

Realist ain't Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is a lot of generalized horse crap. Do you
> have any facts to support your stupidity?

Sorry you're so late to the party. The hard facts of the case have been laid out over and over and over again. Get off your lazy, ignorant ass and go read them.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 30, 2013 08:44AM

Do you Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you have teen age kids?

Do you have a measurable IQ? Sensors aren't detecting one. Hence, I'll repeat...

Later start times are totally impractical in the broader world that long ago grew up around early rising and early start times. They will never be adopted. All the rest is the honking of so many Canada geese.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 30, 2013 08:56AM

Get Real Please Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mutiple studies show that adolescents need adequate
> sleep,that they have trouble getting to sleep as they
> get older, and that memory is impacted if you do
> not get adequate sleep.

Nobody cares about your questionable studies. The Start-Later people have become just another bunch of worthless religious-fanatic nutcases preaching that hell and damnation will ensue if their advice isn't heeded. Why don't you all go picket an abortion clinic or something instead. Assuming you can still find one around here.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 30, 2013 09:07AM

Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So let me ask you this GRP: What would your kid
> have to give up so that he or she could still get
> enough sleep with the current school schedule?

"Nothing" is the actual answer to that question. Kids CHOOSE the amount of sleep they get. If they feel like they just aren't getting enough sleep, they'll ultimatley make different choices because of it. But there is barely a teenager alive out there who is going to choose to be "well rested" over all the other desirable things in his or her world. Life is worth losing sleep over and people will be doing exactly that for as long as they live. The nappy-time people are just more church-lady, eat-more-broccoli types in a different uniform.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Do you ()
Date: August 30, 2013 09:10AM

The Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Do you have teen age kids?
>
> Do you have a measurable IQ? Sensors aren't
> detecting one. Hence, I'll repeat...
>
> Later start times are totally impractical in the
> broader world that long ago grew up around early
> rising and early start times. They will never be
> adopted. All the rest is the honking of so many
> Canada geese.


So yes or no?
I made no judgement that later start times where good or bad, you just assumed.
But nice rant.
As far as it will never be addpted.... We'll maybe not but looks like they are trying

The Fairfax County School Board passed a resolution in 2012 that stated it is a goal of the School Board to achieve later start times for high school students.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: THe Realist ()
Date: August 30, 2013 10:01AM

Do you Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So yes or no?

It doesn't fucking matter, you moron! How would either yes or no have any effect at all on the either the wisdom or practicality of later HS start times? Can you even begin to craft an answer to that question? No, you can't, because you're just another ding-a-ling trying to deflect away from the actual point.

> I made no judgement that later start times where
> good or bad, you just assumed. But nice rant.

No, I just repeated the facts that you replied to in a totally nonsensical manner. Want to try again?

> As far as it will never be addpted.... We'll maybe
> not but looks like they are trying

They are trying to placate the militant right-wing nimrods from SLEEP, a bunch of single-issue cul-de-sac nazis that attacks industriousness and encourages laziness. FCPS students are meanwhile doing just fine without them. Whole bunches of them recently graduated and moved on to some of our nation's finest universities. There are still 24 hours in each day, and persons of even teenage years are free and able to devote as many of those to sleep as they may CHOOSE to do in defining the lifestyle that best befits their own personal needs and circumstances. Disinformed agitators and interlopers do not have any role to play here, but they try to seize one anyway.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: Do you ()
Date: August 30, 2013 08:33PM

THe Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So yes or no?
>
> It doesn't fucking matter, you moron! How would
> either yes or no have any effect at all on the
> either the wisdom or practicality of later HS
> start times? Can you even begin to craft an
> answer to that question? No, you can't, because
> you're just another ding-a-ling trying to deflect
> away from the actual point.
>
> > I made no judgement that later start times
> where
> > good or bad, you just assumed. But nice rant.
>
> No, I just repeated the facts that you replied to
> in a totally nonsensical manner. Want to try
> again?
>
> > As far as it will never be addpted.... We'll
> maybe
> > not but looks like they are trying
>
> They are trying to placate the militant right-wing
> nimrods from SLEEP, a bunch of single-issue
> cul-de-sac nazis that attacks industriousness and
> encourages laziness. FCPS students are meanwhile
> doing just fine without them. Whole bunches of
> them recently graduated and moved on to some of
> our nation's finest universities. There are still
> 24 hours in each day, and persons of even teenage
> years are free and able to devote as many of those
> to sleep as they may CHOOSE to do in defining the
> lifestyle that best befits their own personal
> needs and circumstances. Disinformed agitators
> and interlopers do not have any role to play here,
> but they try to seize one anyway.

Ok you are a tool no arguing about that
Sure it makes a difference if you have kids or not because there are so many people that have all the parent answers right up until they have children. I just wanted to know what experience you had in framing your argument/ opinion.
You maybe correct and it's a bad idea but your rants take away from any legitimacy in your arguments.

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Re: Later start time option for FCPS seniors
Posted by: The Realist ()
Date: August 30, 2013 08:58PM

Do you Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok you are a tool no arguing about that

A tool toward broader understanding.

> Sure it makes a difference if you have kids or not
> because there are so many people that have all the
> parent answers right up until they have children.

And then suddenly they do? Don't make me laugh. The wisdom and practicality of later HS start times are totally independent of any individual's having -- or having once had -- teenage children.

> I just wanted to know what experience you had in
> framing your argument/ opinion.

That is still completely irrelevant. It's the argument that's important, not the person proposing it.

> You maybe correct and it's a bad idea but your
> rants take away from any legitimacy in your
> arguments.

Sometimes a cold. slap in the face is exactly what's needed. And sometimes just a dressing down.

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