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any legal minds out there
Posted by: ommieee ()
Date: March 08, 2006 07:14PM

I lost a case on a technicality in Alexandria general District Court. I was pro se but ironically it's the lawyer I dismissed a week before trial who failed to inform me that a written objection to the Bill Of Particulars was needed. Some say I have a case against my former lawyer but that's not my current agenda. I need advice if anyone knows how to go about asking for a new trial or a void judgment? I will not appeal cause in VA I would have to post bond for the full amount 10,000. It's upsetting cause I honestly felt I was winning my case until the plaintiff lawyer pulled out his ace in the hole and the judge took the easy way out. I have since been told that the supreme court has ruled that judges and the courts need to give pro se special latitude given they can not be expected to know all the ins and outs of the law. I have tried other lawyers but they just don't grasp my defense. I also learned that I would have to convince the same judge who ruled against me for a new trial. Any suggestions?

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: kit.car ()
Date: March 08, 2006 08:19PM

Yeah, I admid it I had to look it up.


Here it is if you were too lazy:

Most legal dictionaries define the term "pro se" as someone who represents themself in a legal procedure without the aid of an attorney.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: bizkit ()
Date: March 09, 2006 09:08AM

The courts usually won't accept a motion to re-hear unless there's some reason for it, like a witness didn't show or something. If you just don't like the outcome of your trial, they'll usually direct you to file an appeal.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: March 09, 2006 01:07PM

what is your case about? if it's something minor, they really wont care what you do now. the court system isnt really about justice anymore.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: t ()
Date: March 09, 2006 04:49PM

if it's a gen district court that you are being tried in than you have the right to a trial de novo (new trial) if you appeal to circuit court. (you will have to wait till this trial is gen dist is over though) You will have your entire case vacated as if it never happened. but there is no garuntee that you will get the same sentence (or even a lesser sentence) than the first trial. Depending on the circuit court judge you may get more time of a higher fine.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: mad max, JD ()
Date: March 09, 2006 05:04PM

I am not a lawyer and I don't know enough about Virginia civil procedure to help the OP, but I know enough that the poster above me is way off. It appears that this is a civil case and not criminal for one thing, but an appeal does not automatically vacate the original judgment. An appeal of a legal issue gets reviewed de novo by the appellate court which could be remanded for further proceedings at the trial level. Doing all of this pro se would be a long, complicated process so you'd be better off hiring an attorney.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: § ()
Date: March 09, 2006 05:24PM

Further to the above post, you cannot introduce new facts into an appeal. The record from the lower court is used to debrief the judge on any deviations of civil procedure. I don't know all the details, but it seems that you could have filed for continuance while you lawyer shopped. I'd start by hiring a lawyer, then instruct him or her look for legal loopholes in your judgment. -§

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: ommieee ()
Date: March 09, 2006 07:57PM

I would love to hire a lawyer but I can't find one to grasp my defense. I have a debt collector suing me on behalf of Discover Card (I highly doubt the debt collector has a client I think they bought my account). They claim they paid merchants on my behalf but I have no record of the charges. So I asked them for some proof other then the billing statements which I believe to be incorrect. Show me a cc receipt with the referencing account # and my signature, or show me where you stroked a check on my behalf to the merchants, or show me ledgers or account history where transferred money on my behalf to merchants. I asked for any or all of this info administratively and all the plaintiff ever sent to try and verify the debt are more statements. Hello the statements are what I'm disputing! Yet I can find no lawyer who has the balls to argue this. If someone says they paid a debt for you do you not have a right to ask them for proof? Like I said in my first post I the judge bailed out the debt collector by ruling against my on a technicality. I would like to ask for a new trial or void the judgement. Does anyone know of a lawyer with enough guts to take on the establishment? Again my case involves a bank, so their has to be traceable evidence of performance on their part. Unless they keep records on memory

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: just_someguy ()
Date: March 10, 2006 06:01AM

Try creditboards.com, there are a bunch of people there who know the ins and outs of this kind of situation.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: March 10, 2006 11:00AM

Not sure how much debt you're talking about but the legal fees may end up being more than the debt. You're probably better off attempting to settle the accounts for less than the face value.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: § ()
Date: March 10, 2006 11:03AM

I'm beginning to wonder if the lawyers that haved turned you down are concerned about fee collectability themselves. Even pro se, you are entitled to discovery so long as you ask for it. You needed to file a request for production of documents with a motion to compel. -§

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: ommieee ()
Date: March 10, 2006 11:17AM

On the topic of discovery. Alexandria general district court where my case was heard does not compel discovery. If I appeal to a higher court I am allowed discovery but I only had ten days to file an appeal and that time has passed. Plus as I stated in my first post I was not willing to post a $10,000 bond to have my appeal heard by another spineless judge.
As far as being able to pay an attorney I do have the money. This case is a matter of princaple now. Even though I have a judgement against me it still a hard pill to swollow when plaintiff never proved I incured the allege debt.
I will try that website. Thanks

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: March 10, 2006 11:23AM

Is there a reason you didn't dispute the debts before the account was sold to a collection agency? I suppose what I'm asking is why did you wait so long before attempting to correct the situation? Certainly you were contacted many many times about the situation.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: § ()
Date: March 10, 2006 11:35AM

I've never heard of any Federal, State or Municipal court that does not allow for discovery during pre-trial of civil matters. You are entitled to review or compel any exhibits the plaintiffs will or intend to use against you. It's your right and due process.

Paperpusher makes a good point above. Why let it get that far? -§

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: Straight Gangsta Mac ()
Date: March 10, 2006 02:52PM

Mad Max would be correct about an appeal vacating a lower court judgment in most states except Virginia. In Virginia, the General District Court is a court not of record (there is no transcipt of the trial) and review from the litigants have a right to appeal for whatever reason, even if they won and are just unsatisfied with the judgment. Even though a court would be rehearing the case it is not an appeal in the traditional sense of the word, because the Circuit Court would rehear the case in its entirety. However, if you want to have your case reheard in Circuit Court you have to note an appeal within 10 days of the decision.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: ommieee ()
Date: March 10, 2006 02:54PM

I sent 4 dispute letters to discover bank certified mail in march, april, may, and june of 2005. I also sent one when the collection agency entered the picture in july 05. I requested proof in those dispute letters. all they ever sent me were the same billing statements I was disputing.
Check it out for yourself. There is no discovery in General District Court. Even worse it is not a court of record. meaning there was not even a court reporter present or jury for that matter.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: § ()
Date: March 10, 2006 04:54PM

I'd still argue that you are denied due process without proper discovery unless the disputed amount is petty. If the amount in dispute is large, you could try for federal jurisdiction if the amount is at the cap (I don't recall what the cap is I believe it's $75k) but would be costly and will take more time. Was the DMO from VA? -§

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: ommieee ()
Date: March 10, 2006 07:28PM

$
Not sure what DMO stands for.
The dispute amount is $10,300. My first choice was always to hire a lawyer but I have yet to find one who can wrap his head around my defense. Which I think is a pretty simple one, you say (discover) you paid merchants on my behalf, I say prove it. They won't because they can't. Truth is they never risked an asset (money) on my behalf. They cannot prove they were damaged by me. They won on a technicality. I would LOVE to find a lawyer who sees the absurdity of this judgement. The time has lasped for an appeal, hopefully a competent lawyer can help with any other options availble to me.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: mad max, JD ()
Date: March 10, 2006 09:08PM

You also have a constitutional right to a jury in civil actions at law. Like I said, I know nothing of VA civil procedure, but the more I hear, the more backwards this sounds.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: ommieee ()
Date: March 10, 2006 11:41PM

mad max

In VA, General District court does not allow trials by jury. Furthermore it is not a court of record. And you can not compel discovery. All of the above are allowed if had appealed but as I said VA requires defendants to post the full amount in dispute. I have no intention of making the debt collectors job easier by handing over the money in question to the court. The only way to get that money back is for me to win my appeal. I'm not taking that chance out of fear of getting another crocked judge. I agree with you it does sound backwards. The whole damn system is backwards. If a credit card company sent you a billing statement and the only thing you recognize is your name and address. Would you pay it? For a year now I have requested in writing from Discover Bank proof they made payment on my behalf. They haven't because they can't. Yet a judge would not even give me the chance to make amends for my technicality mistake. Why? My guess is that there all in bed together. And that's why I can't find a lawyer to take my case.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: PaperPusher ()
Date: March 11, 2006 08:12AM

still seeems to be some missing links.

You could probably settle for $5K to $7K and be done with it (in 7 years). If you look hard enough you can find a lawyer who will take your money but in the end you lose (money) anyway. My suggestion is you should attempt to settle and move on with your life.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: mad max, JD ()
Date: March 11, 2006 07:18PM

Well fuck coming back to VA to practice after school. I can see if they worded the complaint properly and asked for restitution rather than damages they could get away with denying you a jury trial. Must have something to do with the limited jurisdiction of VA General District court. I hate the law.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: § ()
Date: March 13, 2006 11:38AM

DMO = Debt Management Organization = legal name for collection agency. At this point, I'd threaten default and nego. a settlement for 1/2. -§

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Re: any legal minds out there
Date: March 13, 2006 12:06PM

Reading all of this makes me SO glad I dropped my Discover card a few years ago.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: ommieee ()
Date: March 13, 2006 02:10PM

DMO is based in Rockville but their attorney's also practice in VA. Honestly I'm not sure who really is suing me. My account with discover has a zero balance and is charged off. Which means they can now balance their books by writing my account off as a debt and turn it in to uncle same for a right off. Once they do that it would be fraud to sue me for the money since the irs gave them the right off. Which leads me to the debt collector. They claim they represent Discover. But do they? I asked in writing for proof of a retainer from Discover in this case and they failed to provide it. By law a third party debt collector can not sue you, only the original debtor can. What probably happened in my case is the debt collector bought my account for pennies on the dollar and is now trying to sue me for the whole amount on Discover Bank's name. Which is highly illegal as well. They can only sue me for what the bought the account for. But I have no way of proving all this. And all the lawyers I talked to are cowards.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: § ()
Date: March 13, 2006 04:04PM

I think the lawyers you've tried to retain are seeing a wash with this one. DMO matters are costly from a research and follow-up perspective (beyond the initial letter to the DMO for clarity - which you can handle for free) and would most likely exceed the $10k you owe. You could start by writing to the General Counsel's office of either the DMO or Discover to see if they could provide more information and possibly discuss a settlement. Whether they answer you is really a crapshoot since they probably only respond to such letters if 1) you have an account in good standing or 2) it's in re: to a subpoena or countersuit. Discover should have a good in-house law office that's competent, but I wouldn't count on the DMO. It's a shady industry. While your appeal may have expired, you can always sue them in another venue (to compel discovery process) and see how that goes. In theory, this is the way to go, but in practice, I'm afraid it'll cost you more than $10k. -§

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: ThatsFunny ()
Date: July 13, 2014 09:43AM

No

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: 6KkvD ()
Date: July 13, 2014 07:17PM

the lawyer I dismissed a week before trial who failed to inform me that a written objection to the Bill Of Particulars was needed

i assume by "dismissed" that the judge actually saw the dismissal form and the form said you were pro se ?

then no, whatever bull crap the "bill of particulars" is, is a total lie

the act of 1976 guarantees you can be pro-se if you are defending against allegations OF WRONGDOING in court

if it's scotts law scoffs, tell them to stick it up their ass.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: bLeU4 ()
Date: July 13, 2014 07:19PM

(act of 1976 being more accurate it was a supreme court case ruling in 1976)

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: KvU4F ()
Date: July 13, 2014 07:21PM

I will not appeal cause in VA I would have to post bond for the full amount 10,000

---------------------
there is no such thing as being jailed for a non-jailable offense

what were you charged with ?

what claims set forward to open the case gave prosecution the right to charges of that elevation ? (ie, were you caught red handed doing a jailable offense they are complaining off ?)

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: nYCNX ()
Date: July 13, 2014 07:25PM

I was winning my case until the plaintiff lawyer pulled out his ace in the hole and the judge took the easy way out.

illegal. there should have been first effort to mediate.

the prosecutor must inform you and judge of what is to presented. surprises are ILLEGAL and a lawyer oculd be disbarred for making a regular practice of breaking court rules.

then a pre-trail hearing (prosecutor and judge) if that becomes necessary

that's motions aside

--------------------
my experience is fx. co. refuses to mediate, refuses to answer cross-charges, refuses to show evidence against, ..........

there isn't one thing those people DON"T fuck up

they are just greedy fuck ups

that's is the problem in understanding you have

you don't beleive they are just greedy fuckups but they are

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: realtalk14 ()
Date: July 13, 2014 07:38PM

File for bankruptcy. Seriously. Pro-se its only ~$340 filing fee. I know because I did it myself.

Got discharged March of this year.

Now have a 20k car loan with capital one, a capital one rewards card, and another major credit card.

As long as you keep a job, you will have NO PROBLEM getting credit after. Literally 30 days after my discharge capital one mailed me an offer and I took it!

The banks don't want you to do this because they lose out- donald trump filed how many times and is still rich? So there you have it- file and get on with your life. You'll sleep better without the collectors calling you anymore.

And yes, I still have my job and they KNOW i filed bK so it is no big deal.

My credit score has gone from a 520 to a 645 right now- since march. SO DO IT!!!!!

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: MGGxv ()
Date: July 13, 2014 09:51PM

ommieee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I lost a case on a technicality in Alexandria

major law before minor law, always

what you did is allow fucking gov workers to convince you they had won when they had lost

had you known, they'd just have turned the burner up on your ass, tried to destroy you another way for "not being a democrat". probably.

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: Priapus ()
Date: July 13, 2014 10:02PM

If lawyers don't grasp your defense then you don't have one.
Attachments:
Billie-Buckwheat-Thomas-2x.jpg

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Re: any legal minds out there
Posted by: Bill.N. ()
Date: July 14, 2014 12:08AM

2006 thread.

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