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how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Tanya-2 ()
Date: October 17, 2008 12:15AM

how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?

it seems like a stupid amount of money going to waste....

I'd gladly vote YES for any bonds that goes to making our roads better...

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 17, 2008 12:33AM

I don't like bonds the way they use them in this county, to hide the expense to the taxpayer by selling it as a way to get money from "the market" while not mentioning that those bondholders expect to be paid back, with interest and that money needs to eventually come from tax revenue. I'd rather the county pay for things with money they have.

I realize that at the moment, budgets are facing shortfalls, and that makes some people think it is worth leveraging future tax revenue to do things now. I also realize there are scenarios where doing that is actually prudent.

But I just don't see why the county should create future debt repayment obligations now, to do things that are not vital to the operation of our county. Especially when we don't know how better or worse the county budget and our economy will be when it comes time to use tax revenues to repay those debt obligations.

Parks are important, but when the economy is already restricting county budgets, perhaps those things should be put on the shelf until the situation gets better.

Why is this the time to be putting artificial turf and state of the art lighting on playing fields?

Why is this year the right year to replace the railroad tracks at Burke Lake park? I mean, they are 41 years old, and they didn't seem important when the budget situation was in better shape 5 or 7 or 10 years ago. Can't they wait a year or two when we are beyond this economic turmoil? Why take on debt for that?

Is it a good idea to expand the wakefield skate park and build a new golf clubhouse at Burke Lake, right now? Can't that wait a year or two, when things are (hopefully) better?

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Tanya-2 ()
Date: October 17, 2008 12:49AM

77 million dollars.... hmmmmmm....

that's more than enough to hire at least a few hundred new teachers(highly-qualified teachers, of course) for the Fairfax County public schools...

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 17, 2008 01:09AM

Tanya-2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 77 million dollars.... hmmmmmm....
>
> that's more than enough to hire at least a few
> hundred new teachers(highly-qualified teachers, of
> course) for the Fairfax County public schools...


I only see $65 million -- http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/2008bond.htm

But I agree, in principle.

However, I don't deny that we do need to maintain our parks and recreation facilities, I just question why we should take on debt right now, when the county has a $58 million shortfall.

The issue of teacher pay and why the school board thinks this is a good time to build a new office building for the school board when kids are sitting in trailers on the playground is different.

Well, okay, maybe not. Maybe it shows how systemic the problems in this county really are.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: formerhick76 ()
Date: October 17, 2008 01:43AM

The $58 million shortfall is a temporary thing. Our debt load is light enough and our tax base secure enough to maintain a AAA rating. I'm sure the BoS consulted with their financial wizards before allowing this to go forward.

And yes, I am voting YES.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 17, 2008 01:50AM

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The $58 million shortfall is a temporary thing.
> Our debt load is light enough and our tax base
> secure enough to maintain a AAA rating. I'm sure
> the BoS consulted with their financial wizards
> before allowing this to go forward.
>
> And yes, I am voting YES.


You do realize that most of the corporations who were trading CDO's and other debt obligations also had triple-A ratings, don't you?

This is the wrong time to be telling your local government that it's alright to take on more debt to do things NOW that we could maybe wait a year or two to do.

Or maybe you just like any program that spends now and taxes later? Even if it might cause continuous deficits, or at least several years of deficits in a future that may already have current deficits we can't contemplate now?

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: MrMephisto ()
Date: October 17, 2008 07:28AM

Tanya-2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 77 million dollars.... hmmmmmm....
>
> that's more than enough to hire at least a few
> hundred new teachers(highly-qualified teachers, of
> course) for the Fairfax County public schools...

And pay for their piercing/tattoo screenings.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: 8:33 AM ()
Date: October 17, 2008 08:33AM

Seems to me $65 mil is a bit too much, when the meat of the expenditures for this bond are to be on park facilities, and skate parks. The main attraction of our county's park system, are the large swaths of untouched forest parkland, allowing Fairfax to boast of aesthetics, and conservation - and plenty of buffer zones in between redidential and commercial areas. We should be spending it mostly on things like trails, tree conservartion, stream crossings, ponds & lakes, and this stewardship program mentioned on the bond page.

Since we're in a budget crunch, I'm on the fence on this - when normally I would vote yes on park bonds.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: COPS ()
Date: October 17, 2008 10:26AM

We need the $$$ to hire more cops

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: teacher layoffs coming ()
Date: October 17, 2008 04:47PM

Wake up and smell the coffee folks.

Dallas School District just laid off 375 teachers because of their $84 million deficit.

Fairfax County PS is looking at a $250 million deficit.

There will be layoffs-bet on it.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: tba ()
Date: October 19, 2008 11:30AM

Fairfax County just told about 60 2009 graduates of special vocational training that there WILL BE NO JOBS for them in 2009. They spend 20 years training these special children - who WANT to work - only to have them sit home and collect SSI and watch TV.

The state won't help. Governor Kaine only cares about educating the children who go on to college; he won't help the others.

And they want to pave trails in parks? No, thanks.

But Fairfax County never met a bond issue it didn't love.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: bee ()
Date: October 19, 2008 02:28PM

Wake up and smell the roses. Why get further in debt. Citizens don't know the half of Fairfax County hoodwinks.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 23, 2008 05:12AM

bee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wake up and smell the roses. Why get further in
> debt. Citizens don't know the half of Fairfax
> County hoodwinks.


They'd rather not know even a tenth of the corruption.

It is much easier to just get up in the morning, slam down a few cups of coffee, trudge their way into work, keep their heads down at work, make it through the traffic to get home to eat a take out meal and then drown in either alcohol or Network TV sitcoms.

People who are incapable of turning off their brains, and have the unfortunate brain power to think and see the world for what it is have been talking about this for quite a long time. I've been aware of this for 28 years. And I only moved to this area when I was 10 years old, 28 years ago.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: October 26, 2008 12:07AM

Since the Park Authority already have more than enough land to build all of the athletic fields currently programmed but can't seem to build the fields despite several years worth of Parks bonds voted by the public but not sold by the Board, I'm voting no.

Park Authority doesn't need any more land. It has hundreds of acres its owns that are not being used for active or passive recreatiion. They just stockpiling acreage for no legitimate park purpose.

Every extra acre they buy makes it harder for my kids to buy a house near here. Oh maybe that is the purpose. Keep people out of Fairfax.

Vote no on the Park bonds!

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: October 26, 2008 01:07AM

I voted yes....and for Connolly...and for Warner..and for Obama! Surprise..surprise!

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: October 26, 2008 07:07AM

I would vote yes for maintenance on rec centers and land acquisition but no for any items that should solely be done via private money or user fees:
-skate parks
-artificial turf fields [should be born by historical users since NO ONE else uses it]
-great falls nike telescope

Fairfax County should charge regionally for LOCALIZED facilities like Frying Pan and Laurel Hill. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. 5 words sum it up:

Special Tax Districts

Reston Mclean

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Eastsider ()
Date: October 26, 2008 07:10AM

>> how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?

NO

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 27, 2008 02:02AM

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would vote yes for maintenance on rec centers
> and land acquisition but no for any items that
> should solely be done via private money or user
> fees:
> -skate parks
> -artificial turf fields
> -great falls nike telescope
>
> Fairfax County should charge regionally for
> LOCALIZED facilities like Frying Pan and Laurel
> Hill. What's good for the goose is good for the
> gander. 5 words sum it up:
>
> Special Tax Districts
>
> Reston Mclean


Don't forget, these bond referendums are for BONDS, not for approving or disapproving of maintaining park facilities. Those things are going to happen one way or another, at some time or another.

The question is, do you want your county to go into debt (sell BONDS) to pay for it, or use general funds from taxes and fees?


Basically, when you vote on this, you are really just being asked "Should we put this on our credit card, or pay cash?"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2008 02:04AM by Bob.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: October 27, 2008 06:55AM

Well..since we dont have the cash...whether we do it or not.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: October 27, 2008 07:24AM

I would prefer paying cash. I also believe we all need to have more information on scope of jobs. NOTHING should ever be done that is the equivalent of vanity projects in a home. FX and FCPS have scrapped the true concept of renovation and do what I consider rebuilds----little resemblance to original structure. Little or no coordination when both provide public facilities.

Bob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I would vote yes for maintenance on rec centers
> > and land acquisition but no for any items that
> > should solely be done via private money or user
> > fees:
> > -skate parks
> > -artificial turf fields
> > -great falls nike telescope
> >
> > Fairfax County should charge regionally for
> > LOCALIZED facilities like Frying Pan and Laurel
> > Hill. What's good for the goose is good for
> the
> > gander. 5 words sum it up:
> >
> > Special Tax Districts
> >
> > Reston Mclean
>
>
> Don't forget, these bond referendums are for
> BONDS, not for approving or disapproving of
> maintaining park facilities. Those things are
> going to happen one way or another, at some time
> or another.
>
> The question is, do you want your county to go
> into debt (sell BONDS) to pay for it, or use
> general funds from taxes and fees?
>
>
> Basically, when you vote on this, you are really
> just being asked "Should we put this on our credit
> card, or pay cash?"

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Suburbanite ()
Date: October 27, 2008 08:27AM

Taken from the Mount Vernon Gazette:
Park Bond Issue Promoted At Briefing

By Chuck Hagee, Gazette
Wednesday, October 15, 2008

Positioned on the outer limits of the Huntley Meadows Park's wetlands in southeastern Fairfax County, Park Authority officials laid out their case for Fairfax County citizens to approve the upcoming 2008 $77 million bond issue on the November ballot. Of that amount, if approved by the voters, the Park Authority would receive $65 million.

The remaining $12 million would be used to pay the county's share of capital costs for the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority, which was created by six local governments, including Fairfax County. "If approved, the park bonds are planned to fund (among other things) the restoration of the central wetland at Huntley Meadows Park," according to the Park Authority news release announcing at press briefing on the bond issue at Huntley Meadows Park.

The referendum on the bond issue asks voters to allow the county to borrow $77 million to acquire new parks, improve existing parks and renovate park facilities.

"Use of bonds allows for the purchase and improvements of county parklands without placing additional burdens on present taxpayers," said Dave Bowden, director, Planning & Development Division, Fairfax County Park Authority, to those assembled at the edge of Huntley Meadows Park Wetlands Tuesday morning for a press briefing to promote the $77 million bond referendum.

The Park Authority floats a bond issue every four years to coincide with the presidential election, according to Bowden. This year's effort, if adopted by the voters, will break down as follows: $14 million for additional land acquisition; $19 million for renovations and restoration of existing land and facilities; $20 million for facilities development; and $12 million for stewardship.





- So it really is $77 million in debt we're looking at, not just $65 mil.

Personally, I'm against the issue. This is not the time to be acquiring additional future debt, and certainly not for parks. In 2006 we approved a $25million bond for the Parks, $10 mil of that was for land acquisition. In 2004 we approved a $65million bond for the Parks, in 2002 a $20million bond, and in 1998 a $75million bond. That's $185million in bond debt for the Parks ALONE for the last ten years.
The county has an estimated total debt of $2.26 billion, the government now spends more each year paying down existing obligations than it receives from new bonds. In 2007, the county paid $253 million in principal and interest on its debt while floating $234 million in bonds. That's absurd.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 28, 2008 03:39AM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well..since we dont have the cash...whether we do
> it or not.


But we don't get to say "whether we do it or not", only whether it is done with cash or debt.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 28, 2008 03:46AM

Suburbanite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> - So it really is $77 million in debt we're
> looking at, not just $65 mil.
>
> Personally, I'm against the issue. This is not
> the time to be acquiring additional future debt,
> and certainly not for parks. In 2006 we approved
> a $25million bond for the Parks, $10 mil of that
> was for land acquisition. In 2004 we approved a
> $65million bond for the Parks, in 2002 a
> $20million bond, and in 1998 a $75million bond.
> That's $185million in bond debt for the Parks
> ALONE for the last ten years.
> The county has an estimated total debt of $2.26
> billion, the government now spends more each year
> paying down existing obligations than it receives
> from new bonds. In 2007, the county paid $253
> million in principal and interest on its debt
> while floating $234 million in bonds. That's
> absurd.


Notice how they always go for the big numbers during presidential elections?

They realize that most people don't know anything about it besides what they'll assume based on the information on the ballot, and most don't know what a "bond" is, or the implications of taking on debt.

So they are hoping people will say "oh, a vote for the parks! I like parks! I'll vote yes! What kind of grumpy cynical person would vote no??"

Luckily there is a state law that limits the amount of bonds and other debt a municipality can take on, but if this tactic succeeds every time, they'd eventually want to bond out all of the county's current responsibilities so they can use the current money coming in to expand the responsibilities and increase spending.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: formerhick76 ()
Date: October 28, 2008 07:13AM

Bob Wrote:
> They'd rather not know even a tenth of the
> corruption.

Virginia doesn't really have a reputation for corruption.

It's not as if we're West Virginia, where an entire town election is thrown out due to one of the candidates being an undercover FBI guy and a former governor or two sits in jail. Or it's not as if we're Miami, where a judge threw out the entire mayoral election about 10-15 years ago. Or maybe, Louisiana, where 'vote for the crook' is meant to be a positive slogan (ironically, both Duke and Edwards are in jail now.)

Is there the old 'waste, fraud, and abuse?' Sure, I'm sure there's some of it, it happens in any large enterprise. There was probably more waste at AOL in the late 1990s than in FFX County today.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: October 28, 2008 06:27PM

I like trees..that's why I voted for it! You grumpy old bastard!

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: IDC ()
Date: October 28, 2008 09:13PM

I just mailed by absentee ballot today. I voted "No" for that. I also voted for McCain, Gilmore, and Wolf.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Price ()
Date: October 28, 2008 09:26PM

I can see the need to maintain the current infrastructure/facilities, but if there's a budget deficit, it's not the time for shopping, i.e. land acquisitions.

Besides, as someone asked in other topic, where's that land they want to buy? Remeber the discussion the other day how people use public land adjacent to their homes? How'bout county making sure it's using all available land first, before buying extra?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2008 09:27PM by Price.

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Re: how are most people gonna vote on the Fairfax parks bonds issue?
Posted by: Bob ()
Date: October 29, 2008 01:07AM

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bob Wrote:
> > They'd rather not know even a tenth of the
> > corruption.
>
> Virginia doesn't really have a reputation for
> corruption.
>
> It's not as if we're West Virginia, where an
> entire town election is thrown out due to one of
> the candidates being an undercover FBI guy and a
> former governor or two sits in jail. Or it's not
> as if we're Miami, where a judge threw out the
> entire mayoral election about 10-15 years ago. Or
> maybe, Louisiana, where 'vote for the crook' is
> meant to be a positive slogan (ironically, both
> Duke and Edwards are in jail now.)
>
> Is there the old 'waste, fraud, and abuse?' Sure,
> I'm sure there's some of it, it happens in any
> large enterprise. There was probably more waste at
> AOL in the late 1990s than in FFX County today.


Corruption isn't just about elections.

Corruption is more about "you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back" deals between people with government powers and people with money interests at stake.

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