Fairfax County General :
Fairfax Underground
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
jWw4d
()
Date: May 29, 2013 11:25PM
South Jersey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lol, the OP of this post must've pissed her off:
>
> http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/118
> 8557/1198919.html#msg-1198919
unregistered user not a mooch..... I smell a meade post.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lol, the OP of this post must've pissed her off:
>
> http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/118
> 8557/1198919.html#msg-1198919
unregistered user not a mooch..... I smell a meade post.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Simply Pimply
()
Date: May 29, 2013 11:25PM
Pitiful, a women goes to work at her 8 dollar a hour job, gets in some BS with a supervisor and is upset dies by being hosed down by gunfire at the hands of real "Heros"
"Clear the area give me a baseball bat.." That would have handled it.
Now everybody stand back ...clear the area and give them room to break their arms off patting themselves on the back.
"I was in fear of my life so I fired" See how that works for you??
"Clear the area give me a baseball bat.." That would have handled it.
Now everybody stand back ...clear the area and give them room to break their arms off patting themselves on the back.
"I was in fear of my life so I fired" See how that works for you??
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
eD7HE
()
Date: May 30, 2013 12:53AM
Cops are not what they were even 30 years ago. They have become extremely militant in urban areas of the country. Half of them have no buisness wearing a badge let alone carry a gun. Just go onto some of these police forums and read some of the insane stuff they post up or simply youtube police brutality. I can only imagine how well the bozo cops handled the situation. This kind of stuff will become more common with lesser crimes.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
ThePackLeader
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:06AM
common sense Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Smith Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A woman with a knife, and a ton of cops and
> they
> > had to kill the woman? Cops around here are so
> > stupid. Why didn't they shoot her in the leg.
> What
> > a bunch of scared pussies.
>
>
> If you fuck up to a point as to where a police
> officer is pointing a gun at you, It would behove
> you to listen and follow instructions.
Sometimes you don't have to do a whole lot to be gunned down by the cops. Look at the case today in DFW, an older man was walking over, armed, to a neighbor's household to see if everything was okay because the home alarm was sounding. He didn't even make it out of his own driveway when the responding PD lit him up and killed him. Then, they say the LEOs were crying their eyes out because they knew how badly they had screwed up. That's nice, but it won't bring the guy back to life. Trigger happy idiots need to reigned in, or kicked off the force. LE is NOT a job for hotheads, but too often they're allowed to stay on.
Regarding the situation in Sterling, a LTL shotgun would've been a great tool to use in a situation like that. Tasers should never be the only LTL option, even a good old fashion baton/nightstick could've been utilized to disarm that lady without firing a shot. I won't bash the Deputies without 100% of the information, because they could've been dealt a crud sandwich and had no choice, but it sounds like a major issue occurred there beginning with management's handling of the situation (If they're the ones who called the cops, and/or based upon how they discussed any issues with her), and possibly ending with how the Deputies approached it as well. Even if they followed procedure, that doesn't mean that the procedure itself isn't severely lacking in effectiveness. We'll see, and I simply hope that all of the evidence and reports are released to the public. LoCo needs to be completely transparent if they wish to maintain a pretty solid reputation with the public.
==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Smith Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A woman with a knife, and a ton of cops and
> they
> > had to kill the woman? Cops around here are so
> > stupid. Why didn't they shoot her in the leg.
> What
> > a bunch of scared pussies.
>
>
> If you fuck up to a point as to where a police
> officer is pointing a gun at you, It would behove
> you to listen and follow instructions.
Sometimes you don't have to do a whole lot to be gunned down by the cops. Look at the case today in DFW, an older man was walking over, armed, to a neighbor's household to see if everything was okay because the home alarm was sounding. He didn't even make it out of his own driveway when the responding PD lit him up and killed him. Then, they say the LEOs were crying their eyes out because they knew how badly they had screwed up. That's nice, but it won't bring the guy back to life. Trigger happy idiots need to reigned in, or kicked off the force. LE is NOT a job for hotheads, but too often they're allowed to stay on.
Regarding the situation in Sterling, a LTL shotgun would've been a great tool to use in a situation like that. Tasers should never be the only LTL option, even a good old fashion baton/nightstick could've been utilized to disarm that lady without firing a shot. I won't bash the Deputies without 100% of the information, because they could've been dealt a crud sandwich and had no choice, but it sounds like a major issue occurred there beginning with management's handling of the situation (If they're the ones who called the cops, and/or based upon how they discussed any issues with her), and possibly ending with how the Deputies approached it as well. Even if they followed procedure, that doesn't mean that the procedure itself isn't severely lacking in effectiveness. We'll see, and I simply hope that all of the evidence and reports are released to the public. LoCo needs to be completely transparent if they wish to maintain a pretty solid reputation with the public.
==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Never been there...
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:07AM
...but if cops are pointing weapons at you, drop everything in your hands and put your hands behind your head--if you don't want to be executed. Just sayin.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Neighborhood Watch
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:48AM
LCSO: Deputy Shot, Killed Woman in Sterling Costco
The woman, a contract worker at the store, was allegedly threatening deputies with a knife and scissors.
http://chantilly.patch.com/articles/lcso-deputy-shot-woman-at-sterling-costco
The Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office has identified the woman shot and killed by a deputy during an incident at the Costco in Sterling Wednesday afternoon as Sterling resident Mhai Scott, 38.
The sheriff’s office received reports of disorderly conduct around 3 p.m. and reported to the Costco, which is at the corner of Cascades Boulevard and Bartholomew Fair Drive, LCSO spokeswoman Liz Mills said.
Upon arrival, deputies “noticed erratic behavior” by a woman — later identified as Scott — in a fairly crowded store, Mills said.
According to an LCSO press release, Scott was threatening store employees with a knife and scissors when deputies arrived. Other reports said she was acting oddly at the end of her shift when authorities were contacted.
“After loud commands were given to drop the weapons, she raised a weapon,” Mills said. A TASER was then used in an attempt to stop Scott, Mills said.
“She continued to advance to the deputy, at which point lethal force was used,” Mills said. The other deputy fired multiple shots, according to the press release. Scott was pronounced dead at the scene.
A deputy also was struck during the shooting.
“It’s still under investigation,” Mills said when asked to describe how the deputy was wounded.
She said she was not sure whether video surveillance at the store captured the incident.
Mills said the deputy's wound was clearly related to the shooting incident, but she declined to describe it further. A statement from the office indicated the deputy was treated at a local hospital and released.
The officer who fired the shot and the officer who was wounded were placed on paid administrative leave, which Mills said is LCSO policy following a shooting incident.
Virginia State Police assisted with the incident and may assist in the investigation.
Scott worked for Club Demonstration Services, a contract service that provides workers for Costco.
Any witness who has not been interviewed by an LCSO detective is asked to call 703-777-0475.
The woman, a contract worker at the store, was allegedly threatening deputies with a knife and scissors.
http://chantilly.patch.com/articles/lcso-deputy-shot-woman-at-sterling-costco
The Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office has identified the woman shot and killed by a deputy during an incident at the Costco in Sterling Wednesday afternoon as Sterling resident Mhai Scott, 38.
The sheriff’s office received reports of disorderly conduct around 3 p.m. and reported to the Costco, which is at the corner of Cascades Boulevard and Bartholomew Fair Drive, LCSO spokeswoman Liz Mills said.
Upon arrival, deputies “noticed erratic behavior” by a woman — later identified as Scott — in a fairly crowded store, Mills said.
According to an LCSO press release, Scott was threatening store employees with a knife and scissors when deputies arrived. Other reports said she was acting oddly at the end of her shift when authorities were contacted.
“After loud commands were given to drop the weapons, she raised a weapon,” Mills said. A TASER was then used in an attempt to stop Scott, Mills said.
“She continued to advance to the deputy, at which point lethal force was used,” Mills said. The other deputy fired multiple shots, according to the press release. Scott was pronounced dead at the scene.
A deputy also was struck during the shooting.
“It’s still under investigation,” Mills said when asked to describe how the deputy was wounded.
She said she was not sure whether video surveillance at the store captured the incident.
Mills said the deputy's wound was clearly related to the shooting incident, but she declined to describe it further. A statement from the office indicated the deputy was treated at a local hospital and released.
The officer who fired the shot and the officer who was wounded were placed on paid administrative leave, which Mills said is LCSO policy following a shooting incident.
Virginia State Police assisted with the incident and may assist in the investigation.
Scott worked for Club Demonstration Services, a contract service that provides workers for Costco.
Any witness who has not been interviewed by an LCSO detective is asked to call 703-777-0475.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Neighborhood Watch
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:50AM
Woman with knife fatally shot by deputy at Costco in Loudoun County
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/deputy-woman-shot-at-costco-in-loudoun-county/2013/05/29/e5c4656a-c897-11e2-9245-773c0123c027_story.html?hpid=z2
A Loudoun County sheriff’s deputy shot and killed a woman who came at him with a knife at a busy Costco in Sterling on Wednesday afternoon, authorities said, causing confused and frightened shoppers and employees to duck behind cash registers and rush out of the store.
Two deputies went to the store to check a report of a disorderly person and used a Taser to try to subdue the woman, Loudoun Sheriff Michael Chapman said. But the woman kept advancing, so one of the deputies fired at her and killed her, the sheriff said. The second deputy was wounded, possibly when a bullet ricocheted and hit his leg. He is expected to recover.
+-Terms & Feedback.Sheriff’s officials identified the woman as Mhai Scott, 38, who lived near Dulles Town Center and worked for Club Demonstration Services, which provides services to Costco.
Renee Haber, a manager at the store, near the busy intersection of Cascades Parkway and Route 7, said Scott, who was involved in food preparation, became agitated and began to act erratically as her shift was ending. She said Scott, who had been serving pizza, began saying “crazy things” and seemed concerned about the number of servings in a pizza box.
As Scott was moving away from her serving station, Haber said, she grabbed a knife from another station and was making “strange movements.”
“She was frightening her supervisor,” Haber said. Haber said workers called police.
The first deputies arrived at the store just after 3 p.m., Chapman said. When they encountered Scott near the rear of the store, she was armed with a knife and might also have had scissors, he said.
“Preliminary indications are that she came at the deputies with a knife,” Chapman said. Sheriff’s officials said in a prepared statement Wednesday night that Scott ignored orders to drop the weapon.
“It’s a tragic situation,” the sheriff said. “I feel for everybody involved.”
Chapman said that investigators are interviewing witnesses and reviewing surveillance tapes but that he feels “confident in the way our deputies responded.”
Nora LaTeef said she had just sat down to enjoy a berry smoothie at Costco’s food court — after finishing her weekly grocery shopping with her parents — when uniformed sheriff’s deputies burst into the store. The deputies headed toward what appeared to be an employee lounge and then dashed down the aisles, crouching as they moved, LaTeef said.
LaTeef said that she could tell that the deputies “were coming in for action” and that she remarked to her mother that they should probably leave. As her father went to fill up his soda, LaTeef said, five muffled gunshots were heard.
In an instant, she said, employees and customers were screaming: “Get out of the Costco! Get out of Costco!” as they stampeded for the exit.
Peggy Waters of Cascades said she was in line at the big-box store with her 22-year-old son when she saw deputies run in with hands on their holstered guns. The deputies first jiggled a door on what she thought was an office and then headed down a main aisle to the back of the store.
Waters heard what she thought were four shots, she said, and her son heard five. “I had no idea what was going on,” she said.
Some people crouched behind the cash registers, but most ran for the nearby doors, Waters said. “I said, ‘Son, I think we better get out of here,’ ” she said, and they went to the parking lot.
Robert Krause of Ashburn said that he was near the front of the store when he heard “about five” pops but that he didn’t immediately recognize the sounds as gunfire.
“Everyone was running out of the building not knowing what was going on,” Krause said. ”I was a little scared so I got out of there pretty quick.”
Sheriff’s officials said the wounded deputy was being treated for a wound to the leg.
Krause said he saw the injured deputy being carried from the store. ”He looked like he was on his cellphone as he was being carried out, so I hope he’s okay.”
LaTeef said the incident was frightening. “It was really horrible,” she said. “You don’t feel safe, and this is our back yard. Costco is our back yard. You go there all the time.”
Caitlin Gibson/The Washington Post - A sheriff's office mobile command unit is seen in the parking lot outside the entrance to the Costco in Sterling on Wednesday.
Attachments:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/deputy-woman-shot-at-costco-in-loudoun-county/2013/05/29/e5c4656a-c897-11e2-9245-773c0123c027_story.html?hpid=z2
A Loudoun County sheriff’s deputy shot and killed a woman who came at him with a knife at a busy Costco in Sterling on Wednesday afternoon, authorities said, causing confused and frightened shoppers and employees to duck behind cash registers and rush out of the store.
Two deputies went to the store to check a report of a disorderly person and used a Taser to try to subdue the woman, Loudoun Sheriff Michael Chapman said. But the woman kept advancing, so one of the deputies fired at her and killed her, the sheriff said. The second deputy was wounded, possibly when a bullet ricocheted and hit his leg. He is expected to recover.
+-Terms & Feedback.Sheriff’s officials identified the woman as Mhai Scott, 38, who lived near Dulles Town Center and worked for Club Demonstration Services, which provides services to Costco.
Renee Haber, a manager at the store, near the busy intersection of Cascades Parkway and Route 7, said Scott, who was involved in food preparation, became agitated and began to act erratically as her shift was ending. She said Scott, who had been serving pizza, began saying “crazy things” and seemed concerned about the number of servings in a pizza box.
As Scott was moving away from her serving station, Haber said, she grabbed a knife from another station and was making “strange movements.”
“She was frightening her supervisor,” Haber said. Haber said workers called police.
The first deputies arrived at the store just after 3 p.m., Chapman said. When they encountered Scott near the rear of the store, she was armed with a knife and might also have had scissors, he said.
“Preliminary indications are that she came at the deputies with a knife,” Chapman said. Sheriff’s officials said in a prepared statement Wednesday night that Scott ignored orders to drop the weapon.
“It’s a tragic situation,” the sheriff said. “I feel for everybody involved.”
Chapman said that investigators are interviewing witnesses and reviewing surveillance tapes but that he feels “confident in the way our deputies responded.”
Nora LaTeef said she had just sat down to enjoy a berry smoothie at Costco’s food court — after finishing her weekly grocery shopping with her parents — when uniformed sheriff’s deputies burst into the store. The deputies headed toward what appeared to be an employee lounge and then dashed down the aisles, crouching as they moved, LaTeef said.
LaTeef said that she could tell that the deputies “were coming in for action” and that she remarked to her mother that they should probably leave. As her father went to fill up his soda, LaTeef said, five muffled gunshots were heard.
In an instant, she said, employees and customers were screaming: “Get out of the Costco! Get out of Costco!” as they stampeded for the exit.
Peggy Waters of Cascades said she was in line at the big-box store with her 22-year-old son when she saw deputies run in with hands on their holstered guns. The deputies first jiggled a door on what she thought was an office and then headed down a main aisle to the back of the store.
Waters heard what she thought were four shots, she said, and her son heard five. “I had no idea what was going on,” she said.
Some people crouched behind the cash registers, but most ran for the nearby doors, Waters said. “I said, ‘Son, I think we better get out of here,’ ” she said, and they went to the parking lot.
Robert Krause of Ashburn said that he was near the front of the store when he heard “about five” pops but that he didn’t immediately recognize the sounds as gunfire.
“Everyone was running out of the building not knowing what was going on,” Krause said. ”I was a little scared so I got out of there pretty quick.”
Sheriff’s officials said the wounded deputy was being treated for a wound to the leg.
Krause said he saw the injured deputy being carried from the store. ”He looked like he was on his cellphone as he was being carried out, so I hope he’s okay.”
LaTeef said the incident was frightening. “It was really horrible,” she said. “You don’t feel safe, and this is our back yard. Costco is our back yard. You go there all the time.”
Caitlin Gibson/The Washington Post - A sheriff's office mobile command unit is seen in the parking lot outside the entrance to the Costco in Sterling on Wednesday.
Attachments:
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Neighborhood Watch
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:52AM
Some more pics...
Costco Work Shot in Sterling
After acting erratically, a woman wielding a knife and scissors was shot and killed by a Loudoun County Sheriff's Office deputy Wednesday.Credit Dusty Smith
Attachments:
Costco Work Shot in Sterling
After acting erratically, a woman wielding a knife and scissors was shot and killed by a Loudoun County Sheriff's Office deputy Wednesday.Credit Dusty Smith
Attachments:
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Two Cents
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:35AM
Good old FFX Underground, I heard the news here first!
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Going Postal
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:42AM
The woman was inspired by the UK muzzie attack on a British soldier. Glad the PoPo did it right this time and spared taxpayers needless expense of imprisoning her. Hope they bill her family for the ammo.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
>???<
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:51AM
Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to get her to snap out of her rage?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Fresh Fruit
()
Date: May 30, 2013 08:27AM
Use those watermelons to protect themselves. When she lunges at you with the knife, place watermelon between you and the attacker. The knife becomes stuck in the watermelon, thereby disarming the homocidal maniac.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
blue light shopper
()
Date: May 30, 2013 08:42AM
I've seen very few cameras internal to Costco (pointing at checkout/jewelry, mostly); did I miss the hidden ones?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
cholo
()
Date: May 30, 2013 08:52AM
Story is now national news. Just watch, this incident is going to be a huge lawsuit as deadly force will be questioned.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
My taxes are goin' up!
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:09AM
Add that lawsuit to the lawsuits sure to be filed relating to the shooting of the psycho MWAA cop last week. LCSO responded multiple times since 2003 and swept everything under the rug because he was a "brother cop".
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Lee.
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:31AM
>???< Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to get
> her to snap out of her rage?
No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to kill, and no department would train their Officers to do so.
In fact if a Department even thought that they had an Officer with that attitude, he would be dismissed immediatly.
All Officers (like the Military) are taught to shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a serious enough threat to actually unholster a firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a Filipino woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER fail because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use it, then it is a life or death situation and then it is you or them.
Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy only happens in the Movies.
Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander being injured.
It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting an inocent bystander, by stopping the confrontation as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
The Main duty of the Police Officer is to preserve life, not to endanger others in the preformance of his duty.
Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is not a desired objective, but if the situation presents, I will become Judge, Jury and executioner. It is a fact of life.
Lee L. (Retired LEO)
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to get
> her to snap out of her rage?
No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to kill, and no department would train their Officers to do so.
In fact if a Department even thought that they had an Officer with that attitude, he would be dismissed immediatly.
All Officers (like the Military) are taught to shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a serious enough threat to actually unholster a firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a Filipino woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER fail because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use it, then it is a life or death situation and then it is you or them.
Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy only happens in the Movies.
Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander being injured.
It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting an inocent bystander, by stopping the confrontation as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
The Main duty of the Police Officer is to preserve life, not to endanger others in the preformance of his duty.
Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is not a desired objective, but if the situation presents, I will become Judge, Jury and executioner. It is a fact of life.
Lee L. (Retired LEO)
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
LoremIpsum
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:43AM
I'd like to see them shoot the people taking too many samples. In the leg would be okay.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
nigga jones
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:46AM
Never been there... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...but if cops are pointing weapons at you, drop
> everything in your hands and put your hands behind
> your head--if you don't want to be executed. Just
> sayin.
The person didn't understand english. I'm sure MR .45 translated the message.
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...but if cops are pointing weapons at you, drop
> everything in your hands and put your hands behind
> your head--if you don't want to be executed. Just
> sayin.
The person didn't understand english. I'm sure MR .45 translated the message.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
one in a million
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:53AM
>???< Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to get
> her to snap out of her rage?
They are not trained to "shoot in the leg" However, it would have made sense in this situation. However, I was not there, so I can't tell you if that was an option.
Fuck it, one less illegal fuck who does not speak english is fine with me.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to get
> her to snap out of her rage?
They are not trained to "shoot in the leg" However, it would have made sense in this situation. However, I was not there, so I can't tell you if that was an option.
Fuck it, one less illegal fuck who does not speak english is fine with me.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
barnaby jones
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:54AM
More than one cop with weapon ready to shoot. You have to get real close to taser someone. You would think two or three could've taken her down. Knowing several cops around me were ready to shoot would make one reluctant to attempt a takedown.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
afriend
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:56AM
y do u think dat is funny she jus had sum problesm lik everyone else she sacrificed much and fuck u if u dont know her because YOU DONT - PEACE OUT
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
g.g allin
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:02AM
afriend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> y do u think dat is funny she jus had sum problesm
> lik everyone else she sacrificed much and fuck u
> if u dont know her because YOU DONT - PEACE OUT
what?
-------------------------------------------------------
> y do u think dat is funny she jus had sum problesm
> lik everyone else she sacrificed much and fuck u
> if u dont know her because YOU DONT - PEACE OUT
what?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Tough One
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:05AM
Proof positive that you do NOT screw with the sampler ladies!
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Wisdom
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:10AM
Lee. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >???< Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to get
> > her to snap out of her rage?
>
>
> No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to kill,
> and no department would train their Officers to do
> so.
>
> In fact if a Department even thought that they had
> an Officer with that attitude, he would be
> dismissed immediatly.
>
> All Officers (like the Military) are taught to
> shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a
> serious enough threat to actually unholster a
> firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a Filipino
> woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER fail
> because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use it,
> then it is a life or death situation and then it
> is you or them.
>
> Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy
> only happens in the Movies.
>
> Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not
> eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander
> being injured.
>
> It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting an
> inocent bystander, by stopping the confrontation
> as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing
> someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
>
> The Main duty of the Police Officer is to preserve
> life, not to endanger others in the preformance of
> his duty.
>
> Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is not
> a desired objective, but if the situation
> presents, I will become Judge, Jury and
> executioner. It is a fact of life.
>
> Lee L. (Retired LEO)
"You know, people always ask, 'do you shoot to maim or shoot to kill?' I always say empty the chamber and let God decide."
- Deputy Garcia, Reno 911
Amen.
-------------------------------------------------------
> >???< Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to get
> > her to snap out of her rage?
>
>
> No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to kill,
> and no department would train their Officers to do
> so.
>
> In fact if a Department even thought that they had
> an Officer with that attitude, he would be
> dismissed immediatly.
>
> All Officers (like the Military) are taught to
> shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a
> serious enough threat to actually unholster a
> firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a Filipino
> woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER fail
> because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use it,
> then it is a life or death situation and then it
> is you or them.
>
> Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy
> only happens in the Movies.
>
> Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not
> eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander
> being injured.
>
> It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting an
> inocent bystander, by stopping the confrontation
> as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing
> someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
>
> The Main duty of the Police Officer is to preserve
> life, not to endanger others in the preformance of
> his duty.
>
> Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is not
> a desired objective, but if the situation
> presents, I will become Judge, Jury and
> executioner. It is a fact of life.
>
> Lee L. (Retired LEO)
"You know, people always ask, 'do you shoot to maim or shoot to kill?' I always say empty the chamber and let God decide."
- Deputy Garcia, Reno 911
Amen.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
P4bhU
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:17AM
Lee L.: Shooting center mass means shooting to kill. You can't sit there and tell me that that demonstrates a respect for preserving life. Unless the person has a hostage, there are dozens of ways to handle a situation like that. At least, tell everyone else to get away and talk to the person, try to calm them down.
And you know what? Law enforcement is a high risk job, and officers assume that risk when they take the job. So I expect officers to risk their lives to save others -- not shoot center mass just because someone has a blade. You get no sympathy from me just because you may feel bad about killing someone, after the fact.
This combat-style LEO training is to blame.
And you know what? Law enforcement is a high risk job, and officers assume that risk when they take the job. So I expect officers to risk their lives to save others -- not shoot center mass just because someone has a blade. You get no sympathy from me just because you may feel bad about killing someone, after the fact.
This combat-style LEO training is to blame.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
agreed
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:19AM
Deputy Garcia now works for Fairfax County Police as a Traffic Officer.
Wisdom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >???< Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to
> get
> > > her to snap out of her rage?
> >
> >
> > No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to
> kill,
> > and no department would train their Officers to
> do
> > so.
> >
> > In fact if a Department even thought that they
> had
> > an Officer with that attitude, he would be
> > dismissed immediatly.
> >
> > All Officers (like the Military) are taught to
> > shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a
> > serious enough threat to actually unholster a
> > firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a
> Filipino
> > woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER
> fail
> > because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use
> it,
> > then it is a life or death situation and then
> it
> > is you or them.
> >
> > Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy
> > only happens in the Movies.
> >
> > Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not
> > eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander
> > being injured.
> >
> > It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting
> an
> > inocent bystander, by stopping the
> confrontation
> > as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing
> > someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
> >
> > The Main duty of the Police Officer is to
> preserve
> > life, not to endanger others in the preformance
> of
> > his duty.
> >
> > Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is
> not
> > a desired objective, but if the situation
> > presents, I will become Judge, Jury and
> > executioner. It is a fact of life.
> >
> > Lee L. (Retired LEO)
>
>
> "You know, people always ask, 'do you shoot to
> maim or shoot to kill?' I always say empty the
> chamber and let God decide."
>
> - Deputy Garcia, Reno 911
>
> Amen.
Deputy Garcia now works for Fairfax County Police as a Traffic Officer.
Attachments:
Wisdom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >???< Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to
> get
> > > her to snap out of her rage?
> >
> >
> > No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to
> kill,
> > and no department would train their Officers to
> do
> > so.
> >
> > In fact if a Department even thought that they
> had
> > an Officer with that attitude, he would be
> > dismissed immediatly.
> >
> > All Officers (like the Military) are taught to
> > shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a
> > serious enough threat to actually unholster a
> > firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a
> Filipino
> > woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER
> fail
> > because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use
> it,
> > then it is a life or death situation and then
> it
> > is you or them.
> >
> > Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy
> > only happens in the Movies.
> >
> > Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not
> > eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander
> > being injured.
> >
> > It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting
> an
> > inocent bystander, by stopping the
> confrontation
> > as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing
> > someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
> >
> > The Main duty of the Police Officer is to
> preserve
> > life, not to endanger others in the preformance
> of
> > his duty.
> >
> > Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is
> not
> > a desired objective, but if the situation
> > presents, I will become Judge, Jury and
> > executioner. It is a fact of life.
> >
> > Lee L. (Retired LEO)
>
>
> "You know, people always ask, 'do you shoot to
> maim or shoot to kill?' I always say empty the
> chamber and let God decide."
>
> - Deputy Garcia, Reno 911
>
> Amen.
Deputy Garcia now works for Fairfax County Police as a Traffic Officer.
Attachments:
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
never again
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:20AM
Tough One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Proof positive that you do NOT screw with the
> sampler ladies!
No shit!! Staying clear of that noise.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Proof positive that you do NOT screw with the
> sampler ladies!
No shit!! Staying clear of that noise.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Fools Gold
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:49AM
Yeah this story is unwrapping differently than it first came out. The media jumped all over this at the start as another random shooting. Then it was lady with knife stabs cop, then lady with knife and/or scissors just threatens cops...
They said that the taser didn't affect her, it must have gotten stuck in clothes. But really, they could have clubbed her, maced her...that was a little fast to shoot someone.
Then again, its easy to judge sitting at your comfy desk. I remember reading the headlines of "defenseless 17 y/o manhandled by cop" but once I saw the video it was quite a different story. It was a 250lb ghetto b!tch, who was larger and stronger than the cop. This young teen had spat at him and pushed him..it was all the cop could do to restrain her, and when he did he got repremanded for assaulting and mistreating a "poor defensless teen"
They said that the taser didn't affect her, it must have gotten stuck in clothes. But really, they could have clubbed her, maced her...that was a little fast to shoot someone.
Then again, its easy to judge sitting at your comfy desk. I remember reading the headlines of "defenseless 17 y/o manhandled by cop" but once I saw the video it was quite a different story. It was a 250lb ghetto b!tch, who was larger and stronger than the cop. This young teen had spat at him and pushed him..it was all the cop could do to restrain her, and when he did he got repremanded for assaulting and mistreating a "poor defensless teen"
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
PoPo
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:53AM
Lee. Wrote:
---------------------------
"You know, people always ask, 'do you shoot to
maim or shoot to kill?' I always say empty the
chamber and let God decide."
- Deputy Garcia, Reno 911
Amen.
Best quote ever!
---------------------------
"You know, people always ask, 'do you shoot to
maim or shoot to kill?' I always say empty the
chamber and let God decide."
- Deputy Garcia, Reno 911
Amen.
Best quote ever!
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Judge Green
()
Date: May 30, 2013 10:59AM
Fools Gold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah this story is unwrapping differently than it
> first came out. The media jumped all over this at
> the start as another random shooting. Then it was
> lady with knife stabs cop, then lady with knife
> and/or scissors just threatens cops...
>
> They said that the taser didn't affect her, it
> must have gotten stuck in clothes. But really,
> they could have clubbed her, maced her...that was
> a little fast to shoot someone.
>
> Then again, its easy to judge sitting at your
> comfy desk. I remember reading the headlines of
> "defenseless 17 y/o manhandled by cop" but once I
> saw the video it was quite a different story. It
> was a 250lb ghetto b!tch, who was larger and
> stronger than the cop. This young teen had spat at
> him and pushed him..it was all the cop could do to
> restrain her, and when he did he got repremanded
> for assaulting and mistreating a "poor defensless
> teen"
All ghetto bitches deserve to be killed just for drawing air. Asian ladies giving out free Totino's pizza bites (sorry, I took two and not one...) do not deserve to be killed.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah this story is unwrapping differently than it
> first came out. The media jumped all over this at
> the start as another random shooting. Then it was
> lady with knife stabs cop, then lady with knife
> and/or scissors just threatens cops...
>
> They said that the taser didn't affect her, it
> must have gotten stuck in clothes. But really,
> they could have clubbed her, maced her...that was
> a little fast to shoot someone.
>
> Then again, its easy to judge sitting at your
> comfy desk. I remember reading the headlines of
> "defenseless 17 y/o manhandled by cop" but once I
> saw the video it was quite a different story. It
> was a 250lb ghetto b!tch, who was larger and
> stronger than the cop. This young teen had spat at
> him and pushed him..it was all the cop could do to
> restrain her, and when he did he got repremanded
> for assaulting and mistreating a "poor defensless
> teen"
All ghetto bitches deserve to be killed just for drawing air. Asian ladies giving out free Totino's pizza bites (sorry, I took two and not one...) do not deserve to be killed.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
welcome to the real world
()
Date: May 30, 2013 11:16AM
P4bhU Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee L.: Shooting center mass means shooting to
> kill. You can't sit there and tell me that that
> demonstrates a respect for preserving life. Unless
> the person has a hostage, there are dozens of ways
> to handle a situation like that. At least, tell
> everyone else to get away and talk to the person,
> try to calm them down.
>
> And you know what? Law enforcement is a high risk
> job, and officers assume that risk when they take
> the job. So I expect officers to risk their lives
> to save others -- not shoot center mass just
> because someone has a blade. You get no sympathy
> from me just because you may feel bad about
> killing someone, after the fact.
>
> This combat-style LEO training is to blame.
Obviously someone who either lives in Mom's basement, has seen to many reruns of Baretta, or both
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee L.: Shooting center mass means shooting to
> kill. You can't sit there and tell me that that
> demonstrates a respect for preserving life. Unless
> the person has a hostage, there are dozens of ways
> to handle a situation like that. At least, tell
> everyone else to get away and talk to the person,
> try to calm them down.
>
> And you know what? Law enforcement is a high risk
> job, and officers assume that risk when they take
> the job. So I expect officers to risk their lives
> to save others -- not shoot center mass just
> because someone has a blade. You get no sympathy
> from me just because you may feel bad about
> killing someone, after the fact.
>
> This combat-style LEO training is to blame.
Obviously someone who either lives in Mom's basement, has seen to many reruns of Baretta, or both
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
South Jersey
()
Date: May 30, 2013 11:22AM
> Obviously someone who either lives in Mom's
> basement, has seen to many reruns of Baretta, or
> both
Ooh, nice burn!
> basement, has seen to many reruns of Baretta, or
> both
Ooh, nice burn!
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
kill them all
()
Date: May 30, 2013 11:25AM
Lee. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >???< Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to
> get
> > her to snap out of her rage?
>
>
> No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to kill,
> and no department would train their Officers to do
> so.
>
> In fact if a Department even thought that they had
> an Officer with that attitude, he would be
> dismissed immediatly.
>
> All Officers (like the Military) are taught to
> shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a
> serious enough threat to actually unholster a
> firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a Filipino
> woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER fail
> because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use it,
> then it is a life or death situation and then it
> is you or them.
>
> Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy
> only happens in the Movies.
>
> Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not
> eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander
> being injured.
>
> It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting an
> inocent bystander, by stopping the confrontation
> as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing
> someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
>
> The Main duty of the Police Officer is to preserve
> life, not to endanger others in the preformance of
> his duty.
>
> Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is not
> a desired objective, but if the situation
> presents, I will become Judge, Jury and
> executioner. It is a fact of life.
>
> Lee L. (Retired LEO)
You are contradicting yourself and may not realize it. The reason for shooting the center of mass it to kill. At one time the military shot to wound, as wounded were more of a burden on the enemy. The current philosophy is always shoot to kill.
The police always ensure it is their official policy to aim for center of mass and shoot first when "feeling threatened" so that any officer who shoots someone is sure to be exonerated. This is all about paving the way for killings of unarmed people. All they need to do is apologize and say "the officer was following proper procedures". In the current country we live in, a badge is a license to kill.
-------------------------------------------------------
> >???< Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why didn't they just shoot her in the leg to
> get
> > her to snap out of her rage?
>
>
> No decent Police Officer wants to shoot to kill,
> and no department would train their Officers to do
> so.
>
> In fact if a Department even thought that they had
> an Officer with that attitude, he would be
> dismissed immediatly.
>
> All Officers (like the Military) are taught to
> shoor to shoot for Center Mass. If there was a
> serious enough threat to actually unholster a
> firearm (for example, five Officers vs. a Filipino
> woman holding a pair of scissors, plus TASER fail
> because of PCP or Bath Salts), much less use it,
> then it is a life or death situation and then it
> is you or them.
>
> Shooting the gun out of the hand of the bad guy
> only happens in the Movies.
>
> Shooting Center Mass helps to aleviate (not
> eliminate) the chance of an inocent bystander
> being injured.
>
> It also reduces the chance of the perp shooting an
> inocent bystander, by stopping the confrontation
> as quickly as possible. Or the perp stabbing
> someone if she's "only" carrying scissors.
>
> The Main duty of the Police Officer is to preserve
> life, not to endanger others in the preformance of
> his duty.
>
> Unfortnately death sometimes results. This is not
> a desired objective, but if the situation
> presents, I will become Judge, Jury and
> executioner. It is a fact of life.
>
> Lee L. (Retired LEO)
You are contradicting yourself and may not realize it. The reason for shooting the center of mass it to kill. At one time the military shot to wound, as wounded were more of a burden on the enemy. The current philosophy is always shoot to kill.
The police always ensure it is their official policy to aim for center of mass and shoot first when "feeling threatened" so that any officer who shoots someone is sure to be exonerated. This is all about paving the way for killings of unarmed people. All they need to do is apologize and say "the officer was following proper procedures". In the current country we live in, a badge is a license to kill.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Marine Sniper
()
Date: May 30, 2013 11:37AM
Dead men tell no tales...but cameras sure do.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Lee.
()
Date: May 30, 2013 11:38AM
kill them all Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are contradicting yourself and may not realize
> it. The reason for shooting the center of mass it
> to kill.
No. Cops shoot Center Mass to stop, not to kill.
If the threat is serious enough to *SHOOT*, it's serious enough to shoot Center Mass until the threat is neutralized ... the choice of dying is left up to the bullet catcher.
"I think of my friend, my dear friend whom I think about so often. He was out of the police academy for four years when he was shot and killed. Ambushed from the side, he was shot in the upper torso, under the arm. The round lodged in his chest. His partner reported that he gargled on his blood and then he was gone. Yes, not everyone who gets shot center mass dies, but unfortunately some do. Unfortunately."
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are contradicting yourself and may not realize
> it. The reason for shooting the center of mass it
> to kill.
No. Cops shoot Center Mass to stop, not to kill.
If the threat is serious enough to *SHOOT*, it's serious enough to shoot Center Mass until the threat is neutralized ... the choice of dying is left up to the bullet catcher.
"I think of my friend, my dear friend whom I think about so often. He was out of the police academy for four years when he was shot and killed. Ambushed from the side, he was shot in the upper torso, under the arm. The round lodged in his chest. His partner reported that he gargled on his blood and then he was gone. Yes, not everyone who gets shot center mass dies, but unfortunately some do. Unfortunately."
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Mrs Costco
()
Date: May 30, 2013 11:55AM
So if I'm in Costco wheeling around my giant grocery cart full of Kirkland toilet paper and a shooting occurs, do I abandon my cart or live out my fantasy and push that cart out the doors and pretend I won a shopping spree?
also, if you've already paid for your tp on a pallet and are approaching the Costco Receipt Highlighter and a shooting occurs...do you have to wait for your receipt to be highlighted or do you run out? What if you leave Costco with an unhighlighted receipt? Can you highlight it yourself?
And really, how in the world does Costco handle transactions that happened just as customers had to flee? Wonder if the store was looted?
also, if you've already paid for your tp on a pallet and are approaching the Costco Receipt Highlighter and a shooting occurs...do you have to wait for your receipt to be highlighted or do you run out? What if you leave Costco with an unhighlighted receipt? Can you highlight it yourself?
And really, how in the world does Costco handle transactions that happened just as customers had to flee? Wonder if the store was looted?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
FIVE SHOTS????
()
Date: May 30, 2013 12:04PM
One of the deputies was injured in the leg during the shooting, possibly by a ricochet. This injury was not life threatening.
Witnesses described at least five shots being fired.
Robert Krause of Ashburn was at the front of the store when the conflict occured, "This kind of thing doesn’t normally happen here. I didn’t want to be a hero so I got out of there. Half the store was running out too."
Witnesses described at least five shots being fired.
Robert Krause of Ashburn was at the front of the store when the conflict occured, "This kind of thing doesn’t normally happen here. I didn’t want to be a hero so I got out of there. Half the store was running out too."
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Ka Pow
()
Date: May 30, 2013 12:18PM
FIVE SHOTS???? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Witnesses described at least five shots being
> fired.
That and the fact that another officer was hit by one of those might suggest the shooter was a little too...excited...while firing.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Witnesses described at least five shots being
> fired.
That and the fact that another officer was hit by one of those might suggest the shooter was a little too...excited...while firing.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Refugee
()
Date: May 30, 2013 12:36PM
You have got to be kidding me. A woman, with knife and scissors? They couldn't somehow restrain her or at least shoot a warning shot or shoot her in the foot or something? they had to kill her? If she had a gun I guess I could understand-cops have to deal with a lot and protect themselves. But this has out-of-control cop written all over it. I hope her family sues.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Refugee
()
Date: May 30, 2013 12:39PM
Plus "accidentally" shooting another cop? This guy needs to turn in his badge and possibly be charged with something. Unreal. If I still lived in that shit county I would be really upset. I am anyways. That's just wrong. I hope they LCPD gets fried over this.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Ka Pow
()
Date: May 30, 2013 12:46PM
Perhaps this incident suggests that Loudoun County get a real police department?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
G7chC
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:14PM
"the choice of dying is left up to the bullet catcher." Are you fucking serious?
I'm really glad you're retired and not still active. I don't understand how you can be so emotional and introspective about police deaths, and at the same time so nonchalant about civilian deaths at the hands of police. This is one of the biggest problems with law enforcement right now: their exceptionalism. They are not, and do not consider themselves to be, one of "us".
Lee. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kill them all Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You are contradicting yourself and may not
> realize
> > it. The reason for shooting the center of mass
> it
> > to kill.
>
>
> No. Cops shoot Center Mass to stop, not to kill.
>
> If the threat is serious enough to *SHOOT*, it's
> serious enough to shoot Center Mass until the
> threat is neutralized ... the choice of dying is
> left up to the bullet catcher.
>
> "I think of my friend, my dear friend whom I think
> about so often. He was out of the police academy
> for four years when he was shot and killed.
> Ambushed from the side, he was shot in the upper
> torso, under the arm. The round lodged in his
> chest. His partner reported that he gargled on
> his blood and then he was gone. Yes, not everyone
> who gets shot center mass dies, but unfortunately
> some do. Unfortunately."
I'm really glad you're retired and not still active. I don't understand how you can be so emotional and introspective about police deaths, and at the same time so nonchalant about civilian deaths at the hands of police. This is one of the biggest problems with law enforcement right now: their exceptionalism. They are not, and do not consider themselves to be, one of "us".
Lee. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kill them all Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You are contradicting yourself and may not
> realize
> > it. The reason for shooting the center of mass
> it
> > to kill.
>
>
> No. Cops shoot Center Mass to stop, not to kill.
>
> If the threat is serious enough to *SHOOT*, it's
> serious enough to shoot Center Mass until the
> threat is neutralized ... the choice of dying is
> left up to the bullet catcher.
>
> "I think of my friend, my dear friend whom I think
> about so often. He was out of the police academy
> for four years when he was shot and killed.
> Ambushed from the side, he was shot in the upper
> torso, under the arm. The round lodged in his
> chest. His partner reported that he gargled on
> his blood and then he was gone. Yes, not everyone
> who gets shot center mass dies, but unfortunately
> some do. Unfortunately."
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Don't charge an armed man..duh
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:22PM
Refugee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have got to be kidding me. A woman, with
> knife and scissors? They couldn't somehow
> restrain her or at least shoot a warning shot or
> shoot her in the foot or something? they had to
> kill her? If she had a gun I guess I could
> understand-cops have to deal with a lot and
> protect themselves. But this has out-of-control
> cop written all over it. I hope her family sues.
You guys have seriously been watching too many movies.
No cop will aim for the foot, leg, or attempt to shoot the gun out of the criminal's hand. This isn't NCIS or CSI its real life.
Cops are trained to shot for center of mass because (statistically speaking) shooting that area is most likely to result in a critical hit and stop the threat. In basketball terms its a high percentage shot from the foul line. And yes sometimes that results in death. Shit happens. Bad decisions have consequences.
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have got to be kidding me. A woman, with
> knife and scissors? They couldn't somehow
> restrain her or at least shoot a warning shot or
> shoot her in the foot or something? they had to
> kill her? If she had a gun I guess I could
> understand-cops have to deal with a lot and
> protect themselves. But this has out-of-control
> cop written all over it. I hope her family sues.
You guys have seriously been watching too many movies.
No cop will aim for the foot, leg, or attempt to shoot the gun out of the criminal's hand. This isn't NCIS or CSI its real life.
Cops are trained to shot for center of mass because (statistically speaking) shooting that area is most likely to result in a critical hit and stop the threat. In basketball terms its a high percentage shot from the foul line. And yes sometimes that results in death. Shit happens. Bad decisions have consequences.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Stabitha
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:26PM
From what I have read, this situation appears to have been mishandled by the cops. Obviously we dont know all the details but I find it hard to believe 3 cops couldnt use non lethal force to subdue a crazy female with a knife. A combination of pepper spray, a tazer, and maybe a couple wacks with a night stick should have done the trick.
Unless she was flipped out on PCP or acid or something, which I doubt considering she was making and serving pizza. From what I have read, she hadnt even threatened anyone, just made her supervisor "nervous" about her nutty behavior.
Very strange story.
Unless she was flipped out on PCP or acid or something, which I doubt considering she was making and serving pizza. From what I have read, she hadnt even threatened anyone, just made her supervisor "nervous" about her nutty behavior.
Very strange story.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
yep
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:29PM
Yeah, you guys are right. They could have run from her yelling "maam please put down the blade" or approached her with milk and cookies hoping their generosity would break her psychosis. Or maybe they should have allowed themselves to be stabbed severely to show she had intent to harm before they pepper sprayed her or tried to tackle her.
Or maybe better yet, stand there and talk amongst themselves developing a plan to take her down while allowing her to lunge at other citizens. The police do not have to allow themselves to be harmed. Nor do they owe it to anyone to be harmed. This woman was clearly past the point of reason and did what she did
If she was having a psychotic episode, sorry but you don't get a free pass bc youre crazy.
Or maybe better yet, stand there and talk amongst themselves developing a plan to take her down while allowing her to lunge at other citizens. The police do not have to allow themselves to be harmed. Nor do they owe it to anyone to be harmed. This woman was clearly past the point of reason and did what she did
If she was having a psychotic episode, sorry but you don't get a free pass bc youre crazy.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Stabitha
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:32PM
You have swung to far the other way buddy. There is an area between doing what you suggest and killing her.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Knives can kill too
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:41PM
Most of you in this thread are so full of shit.
You're telling me that if you were holding a gun and someone charged you with a knife that you wouldn't shoot them? Nigga please.
You're telling me that if you were holding a gun and someone charged you with a knife that you wouldn't shoot them? Nigga please.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
you would be surprised
()
Date: May 30, 2013 01:47PM
Stabitha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have swung to far the other way buddy. There
> is an area between doing what you suggest and
> killing her.
That usually involves someone getting stabbed,a lot of people think these things play out in slow motion like a movie, its over in seconds. The main objective in police training is for you to not get killed. There is something called a 21 foot rule, once the suspect breaks that barrier it escalates to deadly force.Try drawing a gun with someone running or lunging at you, not as easy as you might think, but then again there are many veterens of several seasons of Foxe's "Cops" on here that certainly know more than real cops.
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have swung to far the other way buddy. There
> is an area between doing what you suggest and
> killing her.
That usually involves someone getting stabbed,a lot of people think these things play out in slow motion like a movie, its over in seconds. The main objective in police training is for you to not get killed. There is something called a 21 foot rule, once the suspect breaks that barrier it escalates to deadly force.Try drawing a gun with someone running or lunging at you, not as easy as you might think, but then again there are many veterens of several seasons of Foxe's "Cops" on here that certainly know more than real cops.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Civilian
()
Date: May 30, 2013 02:07PM
As much as I don't want to 2nd guess the cops, it's unfortunate these days that so many actions seem to automatically lead to death sentences without due process.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
accuser is nuts as well
()
Date: May 30, 2013 02:18PM
Just saw the lady--supervisor? interviewed on Channel 9.
She seemed a bit wacky herself.
She seemed a bit wacky herself.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
CbCc6
()
Date: May 30, 2013 02:20PM
Expect more of this behavior by the police. Youtube is enough evidence a vast majority of police officers are on a power hungry ego trip. There was also that officer out in culpepper who killed a lady and said "damn now im going to loose my job" after the fact. There has to be some sort of police oversight, currently the police are policing themselves. Every officer involved shooting or questionable excessive force needs to be investigated by a 3rd party that has zero contact with the police departments. I hate to say it but a lot of these cops are VET's that have serious mental issues. In great britain they deal with knife wielding maniacs all the time without firearms. A little lady with a small kitchen knife 3 cops could not subdue.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
so you were there?
()
Date: May 30, 2013 02:23PM
says the person behind the keyboard
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
bjcLP
()
Date: May 30, 2013 03:17PM
CbCc6 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hate to say it but a lot of these cops are VET's that
> have serious mental issues.
>
> In great britain they deal with knife wielding maniacs
> all the time without firearms.
Great point.
With the militarization of the police, cops have gotten more and more violent in the past 20 years.
Guns in the hands of cops today are the equivalent of the once-popular LAPD chokehold that was banned years ago -- too many people are dying at the hands of the police as the result of relatively trivial offenses.
We need a complete overhaul of the use of deadly force by police.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hate to say it but a lot of these cops are VET's that
> have serious mental issues.
>
> In great britain they deal with knife wielding maniacs
> all the time without firearms.
Great point.
With the militarization of the police, cops have gotten more and more violent in the past 20 years.
Guns in the hands of cops today are the equivalent of the once-popular LAPD chokehold that was banned years ago -- too many people are dying at the hands of the police as the result of relatively trivial offenses.
We need a complete overhaul of the use of deadly force by police.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
7ejHM
()
Date: May 30, 2013 04:18PM
Of course, we are talking about an event in Loudon County. So to bring the thread around to Fairfax County, it is worthwhile to remember that Fairfax County police enjoy a degree of freedom from public accountability that few police forces its size do, anywhere else in the country. Virginia Citizens Coalition For Police Accountability, Inc. is a non-profit founded by a retired D.C. detective to establish greater public accountability for Fairfax County police. Their address:
CCPA
Post Office Box 7800
Alexandria, VA 22307
If you agree that FCPD needs greater public accountability, then please contact your county supervisor and let that person know. And until a citizens' review board is established for FCPD, every time an incident like the one at Costco comes up, contact your supervisor again and ask them why there still is no review board.
I am a supporter of CCPA, but I am not in any leadership positions within the organization.
CCPA
Post Office Box 7800
Alexandria, VA 22307
If you agree that FCPD needs greater public accountability, then please contact your county supervisor and let that person know. And until a citizens' review board is established for FCPD, every time an incident like the one at Costco comes up, contact your supervisor again and ask them why there still is no review board.
I am a supporter of CCPA, but I am not in any leadership positions within the organization.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Lap buddy?
()
Date: May 30, 2013 04:46PM
Stabitha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have swung to far the other way buddy. There
> is an area between doing what you suggest and
> killing her.
Still sitting on your stupid drunk buddies lap? He must have reamed you good since you talk out of your ass. Or is your mouth full of cock?
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have swung to far the other way buddy. There
> is an area between doing what you suggest and
> killing her.
Still sitting on your stupid drunk buddies lap? He must have reamed you good since you talk out of your ass. Or is your mouth full of cock?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
YMPwe
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:01PM
1. There was no IMMEDIATE threat to anyone else, including the police.
2. There are MANY non-lethal procedures to stop a person out of control. Especially with THREE officers around the "crazy"person.
3. Even if the person was "charging" at the police officer - any calm and trained law enforcement professional could physically move to avoid being hurt. Unless it was one of the less physically fit officers I have seen around Loudoun.
Honestly, there was no valid reason or need to kill that person. I would be embarrassed, as a police officer, if I could not find an alternative to lethal force under the circumstances.
If they were having a "crazy" episode - where is the compassion for another human being? The patience to try ALL alternatives, even backing up or off, so the person may have a chance to regain their senses. What about PROTECTING the woman, even from herself, until she could be detained and HELPED?
Unless there are some new details I am unaware of, the only crime was the homicide of a woman by the police (No matter what her state of mind).
She needed HELP, not DEATH.
2. There are MANY non-lethal procedures to stop a person out of control. Especially with THREE officers around the "crazy"person.
3. Even if the person was "charging" at the police officer - any calm and trained law enforcement professional could physically move to avoid being hurt. Unless it was one of the less physically fit officers I have seen around Loudoun.
Honestly, there was no valid reason or need to kill that person. I would be embarrassed, as a police officer, if I could not find an alternative to lethal force under the circumstances.
If they were having a "crazy" episode - where is the compassion for another human being? The patience to try ALL alternatives, even backing up or off, so the person may have a chance to regain their senses. What about PROTECTING the woman, even from herself, until she could be detained and HELPED?
Unless there are some new details I am unaware of, the only crime was the homicide of a woman by the police (No matter what her state of mind).
She needed HELP, not DEATH.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Tough One
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:02PM
YMPwe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. There was no IMMEDIATE threat to anyone else,
> including the police.
>
> 2. There are MANY non-lethal procedures to stop a
> person out of control. Especially with THREE
> officers around the "crazy"person.
>
> 3. Even if the person was "charging" at the police
> officer - any calm and trained law enforcement
> professional could physically move to avoid being
> hurt. Unless it was one of the less physically fit
> officers I have seen around Loudoun.
>
> Honestly, there was no valid reason or need to
> kill that person. I would be embarrassed, as a
> police officer, if I could not find an alternative
> to lethal force under the circumstances.
>
> If they were having a "crazy" episode - where is
> the compassion for another human being? The
> patience to try ALL alternatives, even backing up
> or off, so the person may have a chance to regain
> their senses. What about PROTECTING the woman,
> even from herself, until she could be detained and
> HELPED?
>
> Unless there are some new details I am unaware of,
> the only crime was the homicide of a woman by the
> police (No matter what her state of mind).
>
> She needed HELP, not DEATH.
She pulls a knife, death is the result. Read some public safety manuals. True its sad that she needed help, but the officer discharged his weapon on someone with a knife. Not a little smokie or pretzel wrap.
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. There was no IMMEDIATE threat to anyone else,
> including the police.
>
> 2. There are MANY non-lethal procedures to stop a
> person out of control. Especially with THREE
> officers around the "crazy"person.
>
> 3. Even if the person was "charging" at the police
> officer - any calm and trained law enforcement
> professional could physically move to avoid being
> hurt. Unless it was one of the less physically fit
> officers I have seen around Loudoun.
>
> Honestly, there was no valid reason or need to
> kill that person. I would be embarrassed, as a
> police officer, if I could not find an alternative
> to lethal force under the circumstances.
>
> If they were having a "crazy" episode - where is
> the compassion for another human being? The
> patience to try ALL alternatives, even backing up
> or off, so the person may have a chance to regain
> their senses. What about PROTECTING the woman,
> even from herself, until she could be detained and
> HELPED?
>
> Unless there are some new details I am unaware of,
> the only crime was the homicide of a woman by the
> police (No matter what her state of mind).
>
> She needed HELP, not DEATH.
She pulls a knife, death is the result. Read some public safety manuals. True its sad that she needed help, but the officer discharged his weapon on someone with a knife. Not a little smokie or pretzel wrap.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Stabitha
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:04PM
Loudoun County is probably already drawing up a settlement proposal for her family. This is going to cost them. Too many witnesses.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Tough One
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:11PM
Any pressure cookers involved? It sounds like a pressure cooker, getting worked up, and stupid enough to pull a knife on a LEO. In that case, for the safety of the police officer(s) and civilians, their options are very limited.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Mother of Two
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:16PM
"Tough One" you should change your name to "Heartless One."
I hope the police shoot one of your loved ones (if you have any).
I hope the police shoot one of your loved ones (if you have any).
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Tough One
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:21PM
Mother of Two Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Tough One" you should change your name to
> "Heartless One."
>
> I hope the police shoot one of your loved ones (if
> you have any).
Don't like poor humor, my bad. How about having a warm cup of shut the fuck up, and just be happy that no one else, other than a person wielding a knife was shot. Now go back to your soccer game.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2013 05:21PM by Tough One.
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Tough One" you should change your name to
> "Heartless One."
>
> I hope the police shoot one of your loved ones (if
> you have any).
Don't like poor humor, my bad. How about having a warm cup of shut the fuck up, and just be happy that no one else, other than a person wielding a knife was shot. Now go back to your soccer game.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2013 05:21PM by Tough One.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
You first bitch
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:25PM
Ah, calling someone "heartless"...the mating call of the brain-dead liberal female voter.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Tough One
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:27PM
You first bitch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, calling someone "heartless"...the mating call
> of the brain-dead liberal female voter.
Pretty much, and then wishing one of my family members shot. Well, there are a few I don't particularly like LOL. Then again, none of them are crazy/stupid enough, take your pick, to pull a knife on a police officer.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, calling someone "heartless"...the mating call
> of the brain-dead liberal female voter.
Pretty much, and then wishing one of my family members shot. Well, there are a few I don't particularly like LOL. Then again, none of them are crazy/stupid enough, take your pick, to pull a knife on a police officer.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Suicide by cop?
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:53PM
Maybe she did not have the guts to kill herself. It happens. Sad for all involved.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
WingNut
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:58PM
Yeah, the more I hear, the less I like this story.
I am totally not one of these knee jerks who blame law enforcement everytime something ends badly, but it seems in a store this big they could have worn her down or at least isolated her instead of airing her out. Would have taken a lot of patience and restraint, but just maybe.
I want videos and an investigation, and I want to know how many shots were fired as the details are conflicting at best.
I am totally not one of these knee jerks who blame law enforcement everytime something ends badly, but it seems in a store this big they could have worn her down or at least isolated her instead of airing her out. Would have taken a lot of patience and restraint, but just maybe.
I want videos and an investigation, and I want to know how many shots were fired as the details are conflicting at best.
idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam
Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.
Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
hU7Wy
()
Date: May 30, 2013 05:59PM
Fortunately, people like "Tough One" are fast becoming a small minority of voters around here. What he or she says doesn't matter and doesn't reflect any truth about how police are supposed to operate.
For anyone interested in FCPD General Orders, they are posted online (kudos to FCPD for making these available, although some SOPs are redacted that I think should not be): http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/inside-fcpd/pdf/5401.pdf
summarizing relevant portions of the General Orders:
Regarding Deadly Force:
1. Deadly force shall not be used unless it is reasonably necessary.
2. The officer must believe that an imminent threat of death or serious injury exists, *and* that all other methods of force to establish control would be or have already proven to be ineffective.
3. When taking a mentally disturbed person into custody, only a reasonably necessary amount of force to overcome resistance is justified. Also see #2 above.
4. An officer using justified deadly force shall not do so in a way that endangers innocent bystanders.
Regarding Non-Deadly Use of Force:
1. OC spray is suggested as an option when it is reasonably necessary to overcome resistance to a lawful arrest; when defending against assault; when establishing custody of a mentally disturbed person; and when pursuing a fleeing suspect.
2. A conducted energy weapon is suggested as an option when deadly force does not appear to be immediately necessary; when verbal commands or physical control are ineffective; or when it is unsafe to approach within contact range of the person.
3. Specifically, the order states that a CEW may be effective when a subject has made active movements to avoid physical control or during the apprehensioni of subjects armed with weapons other than firearms.
For anyone interested in FCPD General Orders, they are posted online (kudos to FCPD for making these available, although some SOPs are redacted that I think should not be): http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/inside-fcpd/pdf/5401.pdf
summarizing relevant portions of the General Orders:
Regarding Deadly Force:
1. Deadly force shall not be used unless it is reasonably necessary.
2. The officer must believe that an imminent threat of death or serious injury exists, *and* that all other methods of force to establish control would be or have already proven to be ineffective.
3. When taking a mentally disturbed person into custody, only a reasonably necessary amount of force to overcome resistance is justified. Also see #2 above.
4. An officer using justified deadly force shall not do so in a way that endangers innocent bystanders.
Regarding Non-Deadly Use of Force:
1. OC spray is suggested as an option when it is reasonably necessary to overcome resistance to a lawful arrest; when defending against assault; when establishing custody of a mentally disturbed person; and when pursuing a fleeing suspect.
2. A conducted energy weapon is suggested as an option when deadly force does not appear to be immediately necessary; when verbal commands or physical control are ineffective; or when it is unsafe to approach within contact range of the person.
3. Specifically, the order states that a CEW may be effective when a subject has made active movements to avoid physical control or during the apprehensioni of subjects armed with weapons other than firearms.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
psycho alert
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:02PM
You first bitch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, calling someone "heartless"...the mating call
> of the brain-dead liberal female voter.
classy guy--hope you don't have kids.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, calling someone "heartless"...the mating call
> of the brain-dead liberal female voter.
classy guy--hope you don't have kids.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
not good enough
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:04PM
Renee Haber, a manager at the store, near the busy intersection of Cascades Parkway and Route 7, said Scott, who was involved in food preparation, became agitated and began to act erratically as her shift was ending. She said Scott, who had been serving pizza, began saying “crazy things” and seemed concerned about the number of servings in a pizza box.
As Scott was moving away from her serving station, Haber said, she grabbed a knife from another station and was making “strange movements.”
Saying craxy things? Could we get some specifics Renee Haber?
A woman was KILLED. Can we PLEASE get details.
I know the cops are covering their ass but what the hell really happened?
As Scott was moving away from her serving station, Haber said, she grabbed a knife from another station and was making “strange movements.”
Saying craxy things? Could we get some specifics Renee Haber?
A woman was KILLED. Can we PLEASE get details.
I know the cops are covering their ass but what the hell really happened?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Joe Smith
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:09PM
WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, the more I hear, the less I like this story.
>
>
> I am totally not one of these knee jerks who blame
> law enforcement everytime something ends badly,
> but it seems in a store this big they could have
> worn her down or at least isolated her instead of
> airing her out. Would have taken a lot of patience
> and restraint, but just maybe.
>
> I want videos and an investigation, and I want to
> know how many shots were fired as the details are
> conflicting at best.
The cops didn't have patience because they were hungry and Dunkin Donuts was open.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, the more I hear, the less I like this story.
>
>
> I am totally not one of these knee jerks who blame
> law enforcement everytime something ends badly,
> but it seems in a store this big they could have
> worn her down or at least isolated her instead of
> airing her out. Would have taken a lot of patience
> and restraint, but just maybe.
>
> I want videos and an investigation, and I want to
> know how many shots were fired as the details are
> conflicting at best.
The cops didn't have patience because they were hungry and Dunkin Donuts was open.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
hU7Wy
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:13PM
Keep in mind that what I just summarized were Fairfax County Police Department general orders, not those of Loudon County. I only hope FCPD officers are better trained, but we have seen similar stories in Fairfax County too.
So here are my questions:
1. If the officer saw fit to use a CEW (taser), then he determined that deadly force did not appear to be immediately necessary. The woman had a knife then, so what changed?
2. Once he used the taser and it didn't work, there were likely still other options.
- There were other officers there, did they have tasers? If so, why didn't they use theirs before deadly force was applied?
- Did the officer have OC spray? Why not use that?
3. The officer shot the gun recklessly, demonstrated by the friendly fire injury sustained by the other officer.
4. It seems clear that not all other methods of force were attempted before the officer decided to shoot. The General Orders (FFX Co at least) specify that deadly force is a last resort.
Now, it is true that things like this happen fast. The officer had little time to make his or her decision. But the officer resorted to deadly force way too fast, reflecting either not enough training in arrest operations, or simply cowardice. I am hoping that Internal Affairs will fully investigate, and that the officer will be sanctioned in some way. The most appropriate way would be that the officer is no longer authorized to carry a firearm and is appointed to a desk job instead, or let go.
So here are my questions:
1. If the officer saw fit to use a CEW (taser), then he determined that deadly force did not appear to be immediately necessary. The woman had a knife then, so what changed?
2. Once he used the taser and it didn't work, there were likely still other options.
- There were other officers there, did they have tasers? If so, why didn't they use theirs before deadly force was applied?
- Did the officer have OC spray? Why not use that?
3. The officer shot the gun recklessly, demonstrated by the friendly fire injury sustained by the other officer.
4. It seems clear that not all other methods of force were attempted before the officer decided to shoot. The General Orders (FFX Co at least) specify that deadly force is a last resort.
Now, it is true that things like this happen fast. The officer had little time to make his or her decision. But the officer resorted to deadly force way too fast, reflecting either not enough training in arrest operations, or simply cowardice. I am hoping that Internal Affairs will fully investigate, and that the officer will be sanctioned in some way. The most appropriate way would be that the officer is no longer authorized to carry a firearm and is appointed to a desk job instead, or let go.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Joe Smith
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:16PM
Anyone have a picture of the dead woman?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Stabitha
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:17PM
WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I want videos and an investigation, and I want to
> know how many shots were fired as the details are
> conflicting at best.
I dont know for certain, but I would imagine Costco's have a gazillion video cams to keep track of employee theft and shoplifters. Every square inch of that store is probably surveiled. There should be some video (unless the cops have already advised Costco to say the cameras were broken or some such BS)
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I want videos and an investigation, and I want to
> know how many shots were fired as the details are
> conflicting at best.
I dont know for certain, but I would imagine Costco's have a gazillion video cams to keep track of employee theft and shoplifters. Every square inch of that store is probably surveiled. There should be some video (unless the cops have already advised Costco to say the cameras were broken or some such BS)
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
WingNut
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:19PM
I agree it may have been reckless with the officer getting the friendly fire to the leg. I wonder what he thinks?
I'm sure it wasn't 1st degree murder and the Monday morning QB thing is easy, but I think there are a fuck ton of questions that need to be answered.
I'm sure it wasn't 1st degree murder and the Monday morning QB thing is easy, but I think there are a fuck ton of questions that need to be answered.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
hU7Wy
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:20PM
I'm pretty sure these witnesses -- those who spoke to the media -- quoted to the reporters the exact words they thought they heard her say, and described for them her specific movements. It is the reporters who are generalizing those statements into "crazy things" and "erratic behavior." I wonder why; maybe they're afraid of being swept up in the investigation and inevitable trial?
Internal Affairs is supposed to interview every single witness they can find. However, I doubt the public will ever see transcripts from those interviews.
Therefore, since the media and the police are unlikely to provide any details, look for some Loudon County bulletin boards and try to find the answer there. Then tell us what you hear.
not good enough Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Renee Haber, a manager at the store, near the busy
> intersection of Cascades Parkway and Route 7, said
> Scott, who was involved in food preparation,
> became agitated and began to act erratically as
> her shift was ending. She said Scott, who had been
> serving pizza, began saying “crazy things” and
> seemed concerned about the number of servings in a
> pizza box.
>
> As Scott was moving away from her serving station,
> Haber said, she grabbed a knife from another
> station and was making “strange movements.”
>
>
> Saying craxy things? Could we get some specifics
> Renee Haber?
>
> A woman was KILLED. Can we PLEASE get details.
>
> I know the cops are covering their ass but what
> the hell really happened?
Internal Affairs is supposed to interview every single witness they can find. However, I doubt the public will ever see transcripts from those interviews.
Therefore, since the media and the police are unlikely to provide any details, look for some Loudon County bulletin boards and try to find the answer there. Then tell us what you hear.
not good enough Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Renee Haber, a manager at the store, near the busy
> intersection of Cascades Parkway and Route 7, said
> Scott, who was involved in food preparation,
> became agitated and began to act erratically as
> her shift was ending. She said Scott, who had been
> serving pizza, began saying “crazy things” and
> seemed concerned about the number of servings in a
> pizza box.
>
> As Scott was moving away from her serving station,
> Haber said, she grabbed a knife from another
> station and was making “strange movements.”
>
>
> Saying craxy things? Could we get some specifics
> Renee Haber?
>
> A woman was KILLED. Can we PLEASE get details.
>
> I know the cops are covering their ass but what
> the hell really happened?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
No no no
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:24PM
Joe Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The cops didn't have patience because they were
> hungry and Dunkin Donuts was open.
That's not it at all. They anticipated her taking the pizza without paying, and getting in her car to head for the exit. At that point they would be forced to shoot into the side of the car while hiding in between parked cars. Not a good scene in a Costco parking lot.
Or if she left the parking lot and drove down the street, they would be forced to shoot her when she stopped at a traffic light, which would have caused a rush hour disaster.
Therefore, shooting in the store was justified.
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The cops didn't have patience because they were
> hungry and Dunkin Donuts was open.
That's not it at all. They anticipated her taking the pizza without paying, and getting in her car to head for the exit. At that point they would be forced to shoot into the side of the car while hiding in between parked cars. Not a good scene in a Costco parking lot.
Or if she left the parking lot and drove down the street, they would be forced to shoot her when she stopped at a traffic light, which would have caused a rush hour disaster.
Therefore, shooting in the store was justified.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Joe Smith
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:26PM
If I was in that store and I saw some woman with I knife I would have sneaked up behind her and twisted her arm, tackled her and hold her down for the cops.
I would have been a damned hero. Not like those punk ass pigs.
I would have been a damned hero. Not like those punk ass pigs.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Tough One
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:30PM
Suicide by cop? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe she did not have the guts to kill herself.
> It happens. Sad for all involved.
Indeed it is. Our mental health care system in not only this county but the U.S. does stink. There's no denying it, and such an event is sad for the officer, those nearby, and this woman's family. An investigation is already under way, but from all accounts, a woman yielding a knife at officers, is justifiable in most circumstances.
That officer, whether right or wrong, is going to have to live with that the rest of his life. That's not something anyone wants to have to do, and I have many friends that work in LE, and that's their biggest hope, to never have to encounter such an event. Whatever happened there, I'm hoping the CCTV will provide answers, but this woman could have hurt other customers, and put herself in a bad position, along with the officer/s responding.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe she did not have the guts to kill herself.
> It happens. Sad for all involved.
Indeed it is. Our mental health care system in not only this county but the U.S. does stink. There's no denying it, and such an event is sad for the officer, those nearby, and this woman's family. An investigation is already under way, but from all accounts, a woman yielding a knife at officers, is justifiable in most circumstances.
That officer, whether right or wrong, is going to have to live with that the rest of his life. That's not something anyone wants to have to do, and I have many friends that work in LE, and that's their biggest hope, to never have to encounter such an event. Whatever happened there, I'm hoping the CCTV will provide answers, but this woman could have hurt other customers, and put herself in a bad position, along with the officer/s responding.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
WingNut
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:31PM
Joe Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I was in that store and I saw some woman with I
> knife I would have sneaked up behind her and
> twisted her arm, tackled her and hold her down for
> the cops.
>
> I would have been a damned hero. Not like those
> punk ass pigs.
I dunno man, no one has really qualified how berserk she was acting- if she was waving a blade and holding her ground or if she was aggressive and lunging at everyone.
What I wonder about is this:
were people out of the store and away from the knife wielder?
How or why did the police get close enough to become endangered or did she rush them?
How much time elapsed between the cops arrival and the shots being fired?
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I was in that store and I saw some woman with I
> knife I would have sneaked up behind her and
> twisted her arm, tackled her and hold her down for
> the cops.
>
> I would have been a damned hero. Not like those
> punk ass pigs.
I dunno man, no one has really qualified how berserk she was acting- if she was waving a blade and holding her ground or if she was aggressive and lunging at everyone.
What I wonder about is this:
were people out of the store and away from the knife wielder?
How or why did the police get close enough to become endangered or did she rush them?
How much time elapsed between the cops arrival and the shots being fired?
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
u idiots
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:37PM
lots of tough guy talk by idiots with a keyboard. maybe you should of been a cop instead a pussy with your desk job and pocket protectors. easy to talk about shoulda coulda woulda when your stupid asses werent even there. fyi, tasers are not effective on all people. loose clothing, no contact with the skin, darts to close together, or one missed dart, and it wont have the desired effect. fact is, she charged at two officers with a knife who gave her commands to drop it. they dont have to attempt to taser her first when she had a knife, but they tried to. attempting to taser or pepper spray someone requires you to be close to them, and they can easily close the distance faster than you can pull out a gun. she made the choice to charge at them with a... wait for it.....DEADLY WEAPON!!! she got what she deserved for not doing what she was told to do. im betting she has mental issues and prob suppose to be on meds that she refused to take. no normal rational person would do what she did when the cops showed up.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
crazed pigs
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:47PM
u idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lots of tough guy talk by idiots with a keyboard.
> maybe you should of been a cop instead a pussy
> with your desk job and pocket protectors. easy to
> talk about shoulda coulda woulda when your stupid
> asses werent even there. fyi, tasers are not
> effective on all people. loose clothing, no
> contact with the skin, darts to close together, or
> one missed dart, and it wont have the desired
> effect. fact is, she charged at two officers with
> a knife who gave her commands to drop it. they
> dont have to attempt to taser her first when she
> had a knife, but they tried to. attempting to
> taser or pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun. she
> made the choice to charge at them with a... wait
> for it.....DEADLY WEAPON!!! she got what she
> deserved for not doing what she was told to do. im
> betting she has mental issues and prob suppose to
> be on meds that she refused to take. no normal
> rational person would do what she did when the
> cops showed up.
READ CAREFULLY. THIS ^^^^ IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A COPS MENTALITY THESE DAYS.
A bunch of fucking lunatics. I bet they high fived each other after the incident. What else could they have used???? lets see 3 cans of chemical mace to start off with or assesed the situation before they got all military tacktical and were "forced" to shoot her. This was not a 200 pound man weilding A butcher knife.
-------------------------------------------------------
> lots of tough guy talk by idiots with a keyboard.
> maybe you should of been a cop instead a pussy
> with your desk job and pocket protectors. easy to
> talk about shoulda coulda woulda when your stupid
> asses werent even there. fyi, tasers are not
> effective on all people. loose clothing, no
> contact with the skin, darts to close together, or
> one missed dart, and it wont have the desired
> effect. fact is, she charged at two officers with
> a knife who gave her commands to drop it. they
> dont have to attempt to taser her first when she
> had a knife, but they tried to. attempting to
> taser or pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun. she
> made the choice to charge at them with a... wait
> for it.....DEADLY WEAPON!!! she got what she
> deserved for not doing what she was told to do. im
> betting she has mental issues and prob suppose to
> be on meds that she refused to take. no normal
> rational person would do what she did when the
> cops showed up.
READ CAREFULLY. THIS ^^^^ IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A COPS MENTALITY THESE DAYS.
A bunch of fucking lunatics. I bet they high fived each other after the incident. What else could they have used???? lets see 3 cans of chemical mace to start off with or assesed the situation before they got all military tacktical and were "forced" to shoot her. This was not a 200 pound man weilding A butcher knife.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
u idiots
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:50PM
a knife is a knife. doesnt matter who is using it. size has nothing to do with it. i bet if she had a gun, you stupid idiots would expect them to pepper spray her anyway. again, you dumb fucks dont get it. tasers and pepper spray have to be used at a close distance. not like you cant use them from 50 feet away.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
liedar
()
Date: May 30, 2013 06:56PM
I love when cops come on here and make themselves look like de-sensitized weirdos. Shocks me that some of these guys carry a gun and badge around.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Joe Smith
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:00PM
u idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lots of tough guy talk by idiots with a keyboard.
> maybe you should of been a cop instead a pussy
> with your desk job and pocket protectors. easy to
> talk about shoulda coulda woulda when your stupid
> asses werent even there. fyi, tasers are not
> effective on all people. loose clothing, no
> contact with the skin, darts to close together, or
> one missed dart, and it wont have the desired
> effect. fact is, she charged at two officers with
> a knife who gave her commands to drop it. they
> dont have to attempt to taser her first when she
> had a knife, but they tried to. attempting to
> taser or pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun. she
> made the choice to charge at them with a... wait
> for it.....DEADLY WEAPON!!! she got what she
> deserved for not doing what she was told to do. im
> betting she has mental issues and prob suppose to
> be on meds that she refused to take. no normal
> rational person would do what she did when the
> cops showed up.
You probably are a cop. I can tell you have no education by the way you type.
-------------------------------------------------------
> lots of tough guy talk by idiots with a keyboard.
> maybe you should of been a cop instead a pussy
> with your desk job and pocket protectors. easy to
> talk about shoulda coulda woulda when your stupid
> asses werent even there. fyi, tasers are not
> effective on all people. loose clothing, no
> contact with the skin, darts to close together, or
> one missed dart, and it wont have the desired
> effect. fact is, she charged at two officers with
> a knife who gave her commands to drop it. they
> dont have to attempt to taser her first when she
> had a knife, but they tried to. attempting to
> taser or pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun. she
> made the choice to charge at them with a... wait
> for it.....DEADLY WEAPON!!! she got what she
> deserved for not doing what she was told to do. im
> betting she has mental issues and prob suppose to
> be on meds that she refused to take. no normal
> rational person would do what she did when the
> cops showed up.
You probably are a cop. I can tell you have no education by the way you type.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
trigger happy
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:01PM
Eye witness says cops were slowly backing up when they shot her.
http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22461183/witness-deputies-were-backing-away-from-suspect-at-costco-shooting#axzz2UosbAQUK
http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22461183/witness-deputies-were-backing-away-from-suspect-at-costco-shooting#axzz2UosbAQUK
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
486
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:04PM
So, what are you? A cop? Police *do* have to try other things before shooting in a situation like that. You say she charged at them -- so, how far away were they from her, and how fast was she running? How fast is 'charge'?
Death is not 'what someone deserves' for not doing what they are told to do.
Fucking idiot you are.
u idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lots of tough guy talk by idiots with a keyboard.
> maybe you should of been a cop instead a pussy
> with your desk job and pocket protectors. easy to
> talk about shoulda coulda woulda when your stupid
> asses werent even there. fyi, tasers are not
> effective on all people. loose clothing, no
> contact with the skin, darts to close together, or
> one missed dart, and it wont have the desired
> effect. fact is, she charged at two officers with
> a knife who gave her commands to drop it. they
> dont have to attempt to taser her first when she
> had a knife, but they tried to. attempting to
> taser or pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun. she
> made the choice to charge at them with a... wait
> for it.....DEADLY WEAPON!!! she got what she
> deserved for not doing what she was told to do. im
> betting she has mental issues and prob suppose to
> be on meds that she refused to take. no normal
> rational person would do what she did when the
> cops showed up.
Death is not 'what someone deserves' for not doing what they are told to do.
Fucking idiot you are.
u idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lots of tough guy talk by idiots with a keyboard.
> maybe you should of been a cop instead a pussy
> with your desk job and pocket protectors. easy to
> talk about shoulda coulda woulda when your stupid
> asses werent even there. fyi, tasers are not
> effective on all people. loose clothing, no
> contact with the skin, darts to close together, or
> one missed dart, and it wont have the desired
> effect. fact is, she charged at two officers with
> a knife who gave her commands to drop it. they
> dont have to attempt to taser her first when she
> had a knife, but they tried to. attempting to
> taser or pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun. she
> made the choice to charge at them with a... wait
> for it.....DEADLY WEAPON!!! she got what she
> deserved for not doing what she was told to do. im
> betting she has mental issues and prob suppose to
> be on meds that she refused to take. no normal
> rational person would do what she did when the
> cops showed up.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
who cares
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:07PM
@trigger happy, theres a store full of people that could become victims if this woman took off running. cops are paid not to back up and deal with a threat to themselves and the public. should they just keep backing up till they cant go any further? thats an idiotic comment. like someone posted earlier, she was prob a nut off her meds. a normal person would have dropped the knife when told to by someone holding a gun.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
MTjxG
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:13PM
who cares Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @trigger happy, theres a store full of people that
> could become victims if this woman took off
> running. cops are paid not to back up and deal
> with a threat to themselves and the public. should
> they just keep backing up till they cant go any
> further? thats an idiotic comment. like someone
> posted earlier, she was prob a nut off her meds. a
> normal person would have dropped the knife when
> told to by someone holding a gun.
Sure a 100 pound asain woman was a grave threat to everyone. lolz. If she was she would have hurt people long before the cops showed up. Get a grip on reality.
-------------------------------------------------------
> @trigger happy, theres a store full of people that
> could become victims if this woman took off
> running. cops are paid not to back up and deal
> with a threat to themselves and the public. should
> they just keep backing up till they cant go any
> further? thats an idiotic comment. like someone
> posted earlier, she was prob a nut off her meds. a
> normal person would have dropped the knife when
> told to by someone holding a gun.
Sure a 100 pound asain woman was a grave threat to everyone. lolz. If she was she would have hurt people long before the cops showed up. Get a grip on reality.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
who cares
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:16PM
yeah, 100 pound woman cant kill a grown man with a knife. oh, thats right. how many woman have killed thier husbands or boyfriends with knives in the history of mankind. what a bunch of tards on this site. i guees in your fantasy world nothing bad can happen to you either.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
who cares
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:17PM
i bet those dead guys thought the same thing, right up until that 100 pound woman stabbed them with that knife. bet they changed their minds about it then.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Stabitha
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:26PM
u idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> attempting pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun.
Bullshit.
I have pepper spray and it shoots a good 15-20 feet. Unless she had a 20 foot long knife, I think they could have hosed her down. 3 of them, 3 cans of spray. No way she's not going down.
You ever been pepper sprayed? It's not something you just shrug off and continue your attack.
None of us were there so this is conversation is basically a waste of time. This is just my opinion.
-------------------------------------------------------
> attempting pepper spray someone requires you to be
> close to them, and they can easily close the
> distance faster than you can pull out a gun.
Bullshit.
I have pepper spray and it shoots a good 15-20 feet. Unless she had a 20 foot long knife, I think they could have hosed her down. 3 of them, 3 cans of spray. No way she's not going down.
You ever been pepper sprayed? It's not something you just shrug off and continue your attack.
None of us were there so this is conversation is basically a waste of time. This is just my opinion.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Liberal guy
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:35PM
Tasers, pepper spray and retractable batons that will break any bone it hits. As another poster stated in great britan they deal with these situations without firearms. Non-letal force could and should have worked. The bigger picture here is that law enforcement will enforce their own interpertation of the law with impunity in the near future if not already. Each inch eventually turns into a foot, keep that in mind.
Trained fighters v.s. a small asain. Unreal.
Trained fighters v.s. a small asain. Unreal.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
u idiots
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:40PM
@sabitha, yes, i have been sprayed with pepper spray atleast a dozen times and also tasered during training with private govt contractors. pepper spray doesnt work on everyone, neither does a taser. pepper spray has little effect on me anymore, although a taser does if its functions properly. meaning the darts are spread far enough apart, it penatrates the clothing and both darts make contact. now you know my background, so what is yours? none obviously like most of these monday morning quarterbacks on here. cops are trained with the 21 foot rule. what that means to you in simple terms. a subject with a knife or other deadly weapon can close the distance of 21 feet and attack you effectively before you can draw your pistol. that has been proven, and in any type of police training it is something they show recruits and have them try it first hand. even though they know its coming, they still cant stop the threat before it reaches them. search it on youtube, im sure you will find it and you can see for yourself. i dont deal in public law enforcement, but i have done training all over with military, civilian contractors, and law enforcement agency's. this is the same practice taught all around and it saves lives of the responders involved. sorry you people dont like it or get it, but thats what happens in those situations when people dont do what officers tell them to do in a dangerous situation. she made a choice not to comply. i wasnt there, nor where any of you, but i have more knowledge of situations like that than all of you probably do. until you are in a situation like that, you cant sit there and say "why didnt they do this, or do that instead".
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
WingNut
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:42PM
Just to be fair, my GF waves a knife around at the Springfield Costco about twice a year and everyone just kinda laughs.
She is white though of course.
She is white though of course.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
eeXvC
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:43PM
Blah Blah Blah tl;tr
120 pound Asain vs 3 or more cops
120 pound Asain vs 3 or more cops
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
u idiots
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:43PM
by the way, cops are not trained fighters. you would be surprised how many of them have never been in a fight in their lives. they are not trained to fight, they are trained to subdue and apprehend people. its not the same thing. now military soldiers, thats a totaly different story. they get training that you are thinking of.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
u idiots
()
Date: May 30, 2013 07:44PM
I can do what I want, thats all that matters civys!
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
aolT.
()
Date: May 30, 2013 08:17PM
So, the bigger issue is- Will I get my free samples when I hit costco on saturday? I would hate to resort to roaming whole foods for their healthy samples.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Not a Cop
()
Date: May 30, 2013 09:18PM
@ U Idiots
You say "they are trained to subdue and apprehend people" Whats your fucking defintion of subdue?
Subdue-Def- To bring under control...not kill.
Join the Army or Core if you want to kill.... you pussy traffic cop.
You say "they are trained to subdue and apprehend people" Whats your fucking defintion of subdue?
Subdue-Def- To bring under control...not kill.
Join the Army or Core if you want to kill.... you pussy traffic cop.
Re: Shooter at Costco in Sterling?
Posted by:
Joe Freitag
()
Date: May 31, 2013 06:14AM
Shame they didn't mace and club her before shooting her. Missed opportunity!