$50,000,000.00 stimulus = 800 jobs lost, nice job Bama

Funny thing is, the young-ins who voted for him will have to pay that money back!

A Danish wind turbine company whose subsidiaries received over $50 million in U.S. stimulus dollars announced on Friday it has cut more than 800 jobs in the United States...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/10/13/Danish-Wind-Turbine-Company-That-Received-Over-50-Million-In-Stimulus-Lays-Off-800-Workers


Alternative energy development has taken another hit as the world’s largest developer of wind turbines, Denmark-based Vestas Wind Systems, trimmed its U.S. workforce by approximately 20 percent....

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2012/11/27/vestas-wind-systems-cuts-workforce-20-percent

Oh wait, is this Bush's fault too?

Obama is saving our country from the Bush mistakes.

only racists are against him.

fuck off.

Thinkbox out.




Heroes Get Remembered. Legends Never Die.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!
Attachments:

Look at the Libs dancing around the facts.

You can dance with them! Here are the steps to the 'Liberal Wiggle'

Deflect, deflect, deny, deflect
Deflect, deflect, mislead, deflect
spin, scream a cuss word, and spin again

repeat as needed to avoid responsibilty

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at the Libs dancing around the facts.
>
> You can dance with them! Here are the steps to the
> 'Liberal Wiggle'
>
> Deflect, deflect, deny, deflect
> Deflect, deflect, mislead, deflect
> spin, scream a cuss word, and spin again
>
> repeat as needed to avoid responsibilty

We learned it by watching you. You should feel flattered.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at the Libs dancing around the facts.
>
> You can dance with them! Here are the steps to the
> 'Liberal Wiggle'
>
> Deflect, deflect, deny, deflect
> Deflect, deflect, mislead, deflect
> spin, scream a cuss word, and spin again
>
> repeat as needed to avoid responsibilty

You, Al Moniz, and Yucky need to realize that this has nothing to do with FFX General. First of all. And secondly, no one cares about your opinion.

Funny thing is you guys are just talking point followers of Fox News. They talked about this last night and its their issue de jour. Grow the fuck up.

PS, Id rather 50 million go towards real solutions on energy than "disappear" in the R&D of Exxon Mobil who hasnt created a new technology that helps the consumer since 1935

Fuck off

Hey shut up you ass (),

I'd agree with your PS, if the $50 mil went to a "real solutions on energy".

"Denmark (population 5.3 million) has over 6,000 turbines that produced electricity equal to 19% of what the country used in 2002. Yet no conventional power plant has been shut down" http://www.aweo.org/problemwithwind.html


The 1932 ref made me chuckle. Wind mills have been around for 2000 years and they still can't get it right. But oil is the old technology....Deflect, deflect, mislead, deflect



"Fuck off" - spin, scream a cuss word, and spin again


And for the record, you cared enough about my opinion to reply.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey shut up you ass (),
>
> I'd agree with your PS, if the $50 mil went to a
> "real solutions on energy".


It is funny how people who watch Fox News are convinced that Solar and Wind will NEVER be a viable energy source, and their justification for doing NOTHING is that it hasn't supplanted Oil yet.

>
> "Denmark (population 5.3 million) has over 6,000
> turbines that produced electricity equal to 19% of
> what the country used in 2002. Yet no conventional
> power plant has been shut down"
> http://www.aweo.org/problemwithwind.html
>

But how many NEW conventional power plants were built since then?

I'd say 20% is pretty good for a single source of energy. If another 20% could come from Solar, and another 20% from Nuclear, and maybe another 20% from geothermal, then they'd only need to produce 20% of their energy with coal, natural gas and oil (which are three different items.)


>
> The 1932 ref made me chuckle. Wind mills have been
> around for 2000 years and they still can't get it
> right. But oil is the old technology....Deflect,
> deflect, mislead, deflect
>
>

How are they not getting it right? I'm confused. Because it hasn't replaced oil already?

I'll admit they are going down the wrong path in trying to make wind and solar fit into the old centralized resource-control model of giant power grids that favor and benefit incumbent power producers, but that will change.

Once the model of welfare for incumbent power producers is abandoned for point-of-use solar and wind, it becomes a viable technology. Solar is already used in that manner by VDOT, NASA, etc. If we built new homes that didn't need grid power, we would not need to build as many new coal power plants, and those fuels can be used where they are needed.

"PS, Id rather 50 million go towards real solutions on energy than "disappear" in the R&D of Exxon Mobil who hasnt created a new technology that helps the consumer since 1935"

Keep thinking that when you see all of the plastics involved in your next surgery. Or those lubricants that allow your engine to go over 15000 miles between oil changes and any other mechanical devices whose lifespans have been greatly extended by lubricant R&D since 1935. Yeah, those greedy bastards at ExxonMobil haven't done a thing to improve your life.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> $50,000,000.00 stimulus = 800 jobs lost, nice job
> Bama
>
> Funny thing is, the young-ins who voted for him
> will have to pay that money back!
>
> A Danish wind turbine company whose subsidiaries
> received over $50 million in U.S. stimulus dollars
> announced on Friday it has cut more than 800 jobs
> in the United States...
>
> http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/10/13
> /Danish-Wind-Turbine-Company-That-Received-Over-50
> -Million-In-Stimulus-Lays-Off-800-Workers
>
>
> Alternative energy development has taken another
> hit as the world’s largest developer of wind
> turbines, Denmark-based Vestas Wind Systems,
> trimmed its U.S. workforce by approximately 20
> percent....
>
> http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2012/1
> 1/27/vestas-wind-systems-cuts-workforce-20-percent
>
>
> Oh wait, is this Bush's fault too?

Nice trolling there, you Denmark-savvy, tea-bagging, HOA Gestapo officer.

Replace oil tomorrow, or NO! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HOA MGR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey shut up you ass (),
> >
> > I'd agree with your PS, if the $50 mil went to
> a
> > "real solutions on energy".
>
>
> It is funny how people who watch Fox News are
> convinced that Solar and Wind will NEVER be a
> viable energy source, and their justification for
> doing NOTHING is that it hasn't supplanted Oil
> yet.
>

Wind and solar don't displace oil. We don't use oil for electric power generation beyond trivial amounts mostly fractions which aren't suitable for production of liquid fuels for transportation purposes which, even given current production increases, is what we are and will continue to be dependent on. No, electric cars aren't going to change that given physical technical limitations, conversion time frames, inherent attributes of such fuels, and economics.

Wind and solar represent not so much energy policy as they are environment policy related to coal use and carbon effects.

Your money wasn't wasted. I used it to reward my backers. In turn, they helped con you suckers into re-electing me! The only job I give a shit about is my own! HAHAHA!

Hmmm, judging by HOA MGR's other threads, I'd say that he should cut out the amphetamine abuse.

But let us relate all of this to FFX County:

1. What does HOA MGR think about the effect of Lance Armstrong's drug cheating, pushing and international drug smuggling on local cyclists?

2. What does HOA MGR REALLY think about the French liberating FFX County from the English in the Colonial War of Atlantic Aggression?

3. What does HOA MGR think about the failure of the local Republikan Kommunist Parti in deceiving hard-working, honest Americans in the past two national elections?

boxorox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmm, judging by HOA MGR's other threads, I'd say
> that he should cut out the amphetamine abuse.
>
> But let us relate all of this to FFX County:
>
> 1. What does HOA MGR think about the effect of
> Lance Armstrong's drug cheating, pushing and
> international drug smuggling on local cyclists?
>
> 2. What does HOA MGR REALLY think about the French
> liberating FFX County from the English in the
> Colonial War of Atlantic Aggression?
>
> 3. What does HOA MGR think about the failure of
> the local Republikan Kommunist Parti in deceiving
> hard-working, honest Americans in the past two
> national elections?

1. I think all athletes should use steroids to entertain me but don't ask me to pay for their related health problems.

2. I think you don't have a post of mine that references that War. But as a rule, I dislike the French.

3. I think the Repbulicans are fighting for a free/open market and less gov, whereas our current leader wants the markets to be contorled by big gov. Whats your definition of Kommunism? And by "hard-working, honest Americans" do you mean the "you didn't build that" Americans?

Replace oil tomorrow, or NO! (),

Thanks for your response. But please read the articles I linked to in my post. Denmark is having to import electricity because the mills just can't produce enough. Wind isn't constant. The mills actually have to use power to spin while there isnt any wind so the blades don't warp. Wind energy can't sustain our current consumption. Wind & Solar have too many limitations to "replace" the current grid. Wind & Solar are not solutions. They may be supliments, but they are not a replacement solution.

"Once the model of welfare for incumbent power producers is abandoned for point-of-use" I like this idea. But I doubt the gov will sit back and lose contorl of that tax reveune stream.


My original point still stands:

Bama dumped $50 million dollars into a Danish company, without any gain or benifits to Americans, and the young-ins who voted for him will have to pay it back (plus interest) to China.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Replace oil tomorrow, or NO! (),
>
> Thanks for your response. But please read the
> articles I linked to in my post. Denmark is having
> to import electricity because the mills just can't
> produce enough. Wind isn't constant. The mills
> actually have to use power to spin while there
> isnt any wind so the blades don't warp. Wind
> energy can't sustain our current consumption. Wind
> & Solar have too many limitations to "replace" the
> current grid. Wind & Solar are not solutions. They
> may be supliments, but they are not a replacement
> solution.
>
> "Once the model of welfare for incumbent power
> producers is abandoned for point-of-use" I like
> this idea. But I doubt the gov will sit back and
> lose contorl of that tax reveune stream.
>
>
> My original point still stands:
>
> Bama dumped $50 million dollars into a Danish
> company, without any gain or benifits to
> Americans, and the young-ins who voted for him
> will have to pay it back (plus interest) to China.

You are a moron. 4 billion went to oil companies last year and I dont hear any bitching. Thats 80 times more. Also your article has no facts in it about what federal funds were spent and where. Those funds could have paid for US jobs ass wipe. you know there are thousands of international companies that work in the US right? In fact one just moved into Fairfax last week (Intelsat).

You are the worst kind of Douche.

PS way to go sticking it to the french, unfortunately your hatred is retarded. They helped gain our freedom (that you so love), they were the originators of human rights, and their economy is one of the few booming countries in Europe (including the country you are making fun of Holland) and Germany, who derives 20% of their energy via renewable and now cheap (because once you invest the upkeep is far less than material cost for combustion) energy.

You are a fucking moron who loves picking little bits that support your idiotic backwards ass bullshit agenda. I cant wait for your face to be shot off by someone around you who gets tired of yoru shit.

You dont have a lock on what our funds go towards. In fact thats the great thing about a democracy, a majority of people want this kind of investment. So suck it up or leave. Its that simple. Go LEAVE. No one likes you. No one. Leave.

I pay plenty of taxes and would rather see these funds than us waste 3 TRILLION dollars securing oil assets around the world. I would rather see this kind of investment than helping Exxon Mobil execs get 300 million dollar bonuses and then complain that the obama administration is making it tough on oil companies. I would rather see this kind of investment than paying for the destruction of our rural areas for the sake of pinching coal and gas out of the ground destroying our ability to grow our own food in the future (because we know how great of a safety record the oil and coal companies have had over the past 2 centuries).

Burn in hell

What a waste. That 50m should have been spent on the worthless war that President Cheney and his friend Bush started so Cheney could get a piece of it.

Dearest fuck you () and PS you douche (),

Thank you for your intellegent replies. It warms my soul to read such creative usage of cuss words from our young Liberals. Your facts were very detailed and useful in our ongoing discussions. Please continue to let your emotions guide you.


I raise my glass to both of you in our mutual desire to better America!



fuck shit dam crap,

HOA MGR

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Replace oil tomorrow, or NO! (),
>
> Thanks for your response. But please read the
> articles I linked to in my post. Denmark is having
> to import electricity because the mills just can't
> produce enough. Wind isn't constant. The mills
> actually have to use power to spin while there
> isnt any wind so the blades don't warp. Wind
> energy can't sustain our current consumption. Wind
> & Solar have too many limitations to "replace" the
> current grid. Wind & Solar are not solutions. They
> may be supliments, but they are not a replacement
> solution.

We don't need to replace the current grid. We need to get away from the concept of a grid. There are way too many negatives.

Solar and wind will fail if the only solution is to connect to a grid where power is distributed and used at-will by every consumer connected to that grid.

Solar and Wind work great at the point of consumption, not as a source to feed a grid. We could do this today, make it either a legal requirement or cost-inducive to build every new home to be grid independent -- solar panels, wind turbines, geothermal heat-exchanges and efficiency standards -- and we would get ahead of the need to build new power plants. Except that the current model where everyone is dependent on the grid and pays monthly for utilities is part of the control mentality, and both parties represent the ruling class who benefits from continuing this.

>
> "Once the model of welfare for incumbent power
> producers is abandoned for point-of-use" I like
> this idea. But I doubt the gov will sit back and
> lose contorl of that tax reveune stream.
>

It's not the government. It is the people who hold the reigns of government. Not the people you vote for, but the people who own the people you vote for.


>
> My original point still stands:
>
> Bama dumped $50 million dollars into a Danish
> company, without any gain or benifits to
> Americans, and the young-ins who voted for him
> will have to pay it back (plus interest) to China.

Well, China is the largest foreign holder of treasury instruments, but most of the money is owed to ourselves so China is a red herring. But it sounds ominous, don't it?

That $50 million is a drop in the bucket. Frankly, we need to be more like venture capitalists and invest in many ideas, even if 90% of them fail. If we invest in 10 ideas, and get a 10% return, that's 1 idea that succeeds. If we invest in 1,000 ideas, and get a 10% return, that's 100 ideas that succeed.

Or we can keep being pessimistic and fatalistic about it, and do nothing. Though I don't believe you are that pessimistic, I suspect you just don't like Obama and this seems like a good way to show your disdain for everything he stands for.

I can't tell which party you attend.

Green:
make it either a legal requirement or cost-inducive to build every new home to be grid independent -- solar panels, wind turbines

Tea:
It's not the government.....but the people who own the people you vote for.

Lib:
but most of the money is owed to ourselves (aka the 1%-ers)

Reps:
Or we can keep being pessimistic and fatalistic about it, and do nothing.


I applaud your ablity to see past party lines and stand reasonably and logiclly in the middle.


Your idea would work great in the rural areas. My guess is we would still need some sort of large scale generation & grid system to feed the cities.

can someone name ONE thing that Obama has done wrong??

nothing.

thought so.

the guy is like the RG3 of presidents. He looks good even when he screws up.



Thinkbox out.




Heroes Get Remembered. Legends Never Die.

Hey ThinkCox(),

This thread is just one example of the many things he's done wrong.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't tell which party you attend.


Maybe that is part of your difficulty. Every idea of your's is filtered through the lense of a particular ideology.

I don't attend any party, and I try to avoid mobs.


>
> Green:
> make it either a legal requirement or
> cost-inducive to build every new home to be grid
> independent -- solar panels, wind turbines
>

See. You filter anything to do with solar and wind to be "green". I don't care how solar and wind affects the environment or global warming. I care that we are at or near a point in technological development that could eliminate the need for people to pay a monthly utility bill, but the people who benefit from the old system are doing everything they can to prevent that from happening.



> Tea:
> It's not the government.....but the people who own
> the people you vote for.
>

That's not tea party. That's reality. Tea party only dislikes Obama, and are prefectly content with spending as long as a white republican is president. Just look at the deficit under Bush and the lack of complaint from these guys.



> Lib:
> but most of the money is owed to ourselves (aka
> the 1%-ers)
>

Didn't mention 1%-ers. I said "owed to ourselves" because a lot of the treasury bills are owned by pensions, 401(k) plans, private investors, banks, institutions, blah blah blah. It isn't just 1%-ers.


> Reps:
> Or we can keep being pessimistic and fatalistic
> about it, and do nothing.
>
>

Now that is a republican outlook. But I was criticizing that outlook, not giving it credibility.



> I applaud your ablity to see past party lines and
> stand reasonably and logiclly in the middle.
>
>

Not sure I would call it the middle. Just intellectually honest. Once you try to identify with a party or ideology, you lose the ability to be intellectually honest because there's all kinds of conflicts and cognitive dissonance.



> Your idea would work great in the rural areas. My
> guess is we would still need some sort of large
> scale generation & grid system to feed the cities.


It can be done in urban and suburban areas, too. Residential and small-scale commercial construction can make use of full or partial self-production of energy. This would free up the "grid" energy for things that require massive amounts of energy, like electric rail, communications/data centers, etc.

We will eventually run out of obtainable carbon-based fuels unless we get smart and use them only for the things where they truly are the best option. Driving heavy machinery, propelling large aircraft, sending mass into space, etc. and use other energy sources where they make sense -- powering your house with solar and wind, propelling personal vehicles with natural gas, or solar-generated electricity, etc.

There are things we cannot do without oil or carbon-based fuels. It makes sense that we should try to find other sources of energy for the things that can be done without oil, so we have the oil we need down the road for the things that absolutely cannot be done without it.

Read my lips
Attachments:

My filters are just stero-typed sacrasm.

"It can be done in urban", well not fully. I can't imagine the Empire State Bld running off self-produced alternative fuels. No windmill or solar panel is going to sustain that usage for 24/7/365.


I don't think the alternative fuel methodology alone will solve the problem. To solve it we need to lower consumption as well as producing clean enrgy.

I also don't like your "Invest in 1000 ideas and hope (OBama) 10% work out" theory. I don't want our gov deciding what 1000 ideas to try. I'd suggest using incentives and regulations to promote and limit the private industries to produce new and better ways. The idiots in Washington are too greedy with our money. Let the private firms hold the cash and motivate them to use it to come up with new ideas.

Don't just wrtie checks $50 mil (or even $50.00) to Danish wind mill companies.

Replace oil tomorrow, or NO! Wrote:

> It is funny how people who watch Fox News are
> convinced that Solar and Wind will NEVER be a
> viable energy source, and their justification for
> doing NOTHING is that it hasn't supplanted Oil
> yet.

I don't watch Fox News, and I'm convinced that solar and wind are not viable energy sources. I support nuclear. It's pretty safe, and pretty clean. Solar and wind do not generate enough power.


>
> How are they not getting it right? I'm confused.
> Because it hasn't replaced oil already?
>
> I'll admit they are going down the wrong path in
> trying to make wind and solar fit into the old
> centralized resource-control model of giant power
> grids that favor and benefit incumbent power
> producers, but that will change.
>

Solar and wind are not viable. It's not because they haven't replaced oil (any reasonable person can understand the REAL reason they haven't). It's because they don't produce enough power. And, if both are viable, they're only viable in a limited number of areas.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My filters are just stero-typed sacrasm.
>
> "It can be done in urban", well not fully. I can't
> imagine the Empire State Bld running off
> self-produced alternative fuels. No windmill or
> solar panel is going to sustain that usage for
> 24/7/365.
>
>
> I don't think the alternative fuel methodology
> alone will solve the problem. To solve it we need
> to lower consumption as well as producing clean
> enrgy.
>
> I also don't like your "Invest in 1000 ideas and
> hope (OBama) 10% work out" theory. I don't want
> our gov deciding what 1000 ideas to try. I'd
> suggest using incentives and regulations to
> promote and limit the private industries to
> produce new and better ways. The idiots in
> Washington are too greedy with our money. Let the
> private firms hold the cash and motivate them to
> use it to come up with new ideas.
>
> Don't just wrtie checks $50 mil (or even $50.00)
> to Danish wind mill companies.

HOA Manager, your knowledge of land development is completely inadequate to speak on this subject. Energy systems for high rise systems are actually some of the best for renewable energy. The point isnt to have one technology run the building. Geothermal heat sinking can help with 40-50% of most buildings energy usage. Proper design, location, and lighting can help far more. In high rises using a good cooler system can by itself reduce energy usage by 15% in the building just for one design decision. Add on top of that a roof Photovoltaic system which can depeak at the worst times of the day (middle of the day peak AC), as well as a good battery system and you can theoretically get off the grid. Theres also trigen technology which can use biowaste, heat production for hot water, and electricity production to create energy.

Here is your problem, you want to spout off about obsolete technology and you dont even put in the hard work to research about where the industries have come over the past 10 years. You are the person at ATT laughing about cellular technology saying why would anyone want to use wireless devices when they could use 100% reliable copper.

Here this time without cursing (),

My knowledge of 'land development' is irrelevant to my original point that Bama wasted $50 mil of our money or the statement that alternative fuel methodology alone will not solve the 'getting off fossil fuels' problem.

I suggested that there will never be a viable solution without lowering our consumption.

But.....
"Geothermal heat sinking can help with 40-50% of most buildings energy usage."
I wonder how much underground piping would be needed to geo-therm the Empire State Bld. And imagine where it would go? NY's underground is a f-ing mess of subways, basements, pipes and cables. You'd have to go straight down. Then you'd run into maintanance issues.

"a good battery system" And where do we put all those old batteries?

"Proper design, location, and lighting can help", We'd have to redesign the cities and move/remove buildings.

"trigen technology which can use biowaste", I wonder what the streets of NY would smell like if we burned everyones poop or french-frie oils.

Are you telling me that you can produce enough localized alternative energy to run Times Square on New Years Eve?


"Here is your problem", your theoretical solutions just create a new set of problems.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And for the record, you cared enough about my
> opinion to reply.


Hee hee, that's funny 'cause it's true.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here this time without cursing (),
>
> My knowledge of 'land development' is irrelevant
> to my original point that Bama wasted $50 mil of
> our money or the statement that alternative fuel
> methodology alone will not solve the 'getting off
> fossil fuels' problem.
>
> I suggested that there will never be a viable
> solution without lowering our consumption.
>
> But.....
> "Geothermal heat sinking can help with 40-50% of
> most buildings energy usage."
> I wonder how much underground piping would be
> needed to geo-therm the Empire State Bld. And
> imagine where it would go? NY's underground is a
> f-ing mess of subways, basements, pipes and
> cables. You'd have to go straight down. Then you'd
> run into maintanance issues.
>
> "a good battery system" And where do we put all
> those old batteries?
>
> "Proper design, location, and lighting can help",
> We'd have to redesign the cities and move/remove
> buildings.
>
> "trigen technology which can use biowaste", I
> wonder what the streets of NY would smell like if
> we burned everyones poop or french-frie oils.
>
> Are you telling me that you can produce enough
> localized alternative energy to run Times Square
> on New Years Eve?
>
>
> "Here is your problem", your theoretical solutions
> just create a new set of problems.

You keep viewing this through the worst case scenario of fully developed and historic NYC. View this through the filter of new regions. Arlington, Charlotte, or redeveloped areas in NYC. When you construct a new building you can get it off the grid. You talk about the smell? Are you serious? When you vent to the 80th floor the smell is not an issue (dear god you are dumb).

For buildings like the empire state (dunno why you are so obsessed about it) they can be fed off the excess from other buildings which I have pointed out can easily get to 100% self reliant. Its an issue of scale. When you build a highrise in NYC it costs 750 million to at times 2 billion dollars for a single high rise. Incorporating renewables into these buildings typically runs about 3% of cost on construction. So 60 million beyond the typical costs of development. But the return on that from being off the grid or being able to even feed the grid is huge. At 15c/kwh the pay back is often only 20-25 years. For high rises the building cycle for total demolition is typically 100 years (and in the case of some in NYC they have extended into 150 years).

Thats the power of renewables, the cost up front is recovered by the extremely long life span of the technology with minimal upkeep, where as combustibles require constant fueling and leverage you to whatever the instantaneous costs of energy will be.

For an example of how the power companies are literally trying to shut down the parity that is already occurring, look at Dominions practices in Virginia. They cap your return value to the grid and lobby the state to disallow renewable construction that creates larger than residential levels. They shut down 4 non-profit projects for universities where the energy production was in the range of 1.5 megawatts (enough to power a small town). They know that they're grasp is falling apart because the technology is excelling so they are using whatever means to hold it down.

But you can continue to be uneducated on the subject and yet spout off about how its a faux science if youd like, but no one will take you seriously if you take the stance than any investment is bad.

"You keep viewing this through the worst case" and in turn you're viewing everything as if can build a new clean city at end of the rainbow.

Reguardless if you and God feel I'm dumb, my points still stand, your solutions create new problems, reduction in consumption has to be part of the solution and Bama wasted $50 mil.


Do you have an example of an acctual "off the grid" self-reliant hi-rise?
What is the laregest 'off the grid' system?


"any investment is bad", never said that. I said I didn't want the gov (like Barrakus) to make investment descisions with my money. I'd like to see the gov motivate private industries to find solutions.


"Dominions practices in Virginia" are all gov regulated.

"You keep viewing this through the worst case" and in turn you're viewing everything as if [WE] can build a new clean city at [THE] end of the rainbow.

The government doesnt have to do anything except for providing research grants to innovative companies researching more efficient energy systems, create a level playing field that incorporates ALL costs through out a life cycle and damage caused that is not as direct as dollar cost, and be open in land use and zoning policy.

Examples of net zero buildings, there have been over 200 midrise and highrise buildings that fit this bill over the past 5 years. Most occur over seas in Germany, Taiwan, Japan(where there is an entire town which is net zero on energy and was the only area around Tokyo which never experienced any issues from the Fukishima rolling blackouts I might add), and Taiwan. In the US the high rise examples are less because frankly the US builds less high rises and in many cases the areas which are growing the fastest are the ones that are least likely to be friendly towards this technology (Houston, Atlanta, LA).

But there are still US examples

http://doyourpart.com/eco-news/worlds-greenest-high-rise-planned-for-portland/

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.feature/id/1912

There are two in the works in DC still in rezoning as well.

Here is a good map of existing ones around the world of all sizes

http://batchgeo.com/map/net-zero-energy-buildings

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "You keep viewing this through the worst case" and
> in turn you're viewing everything as if [WE] can
> build a new clean city at [THE] end of the
> rainbow.

Because there are only ever two options, one extreme or the other.

The orange colored labels are the ones that are more likely to be high rises

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_River_Tower,%20www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ashrae/hpb_2008winter/index.php?startid=28

www.inhabitat.com/2007/10/18/burj-al-taqa-energy-tower-for-the-middle-east/

www.inhabitat.com/2009/02/02/zira-island-by-big-architects/#more-18873

It is disgusting that around the world we are lagging behind other nations who are really doing something to ween off of oil and coal. Our energy reliance is one of our biggest security threats and to scoff at the ability to secure multi-generational renewable energy as atleast a larger portion of our uses is not productive.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "You keep viewing this through the worst case" and
> in turn you're viewing everything as if can build
> a new clean city at end of the rainbow.

Yes, everyone who wants to increase renewables is thinking only of brand new shiny cities built in the clouds.


>
> Reguardless if you and God feel I'm dumb, my
> points still stand, your solutions create new
> problems, reduction in consumption has to be part
> of the solution and Bama wasted $50 mil.
>

Nobody is excluding reductions in consumption. Energy efficiency is the key to any energy usage plan. But relying on extraction-based energy has the most crippling problems of any energy strategy -- consumption can outstrip our ability to extract energy, distribute it, and process it.



>
> Do you have an example of an acctual "off the
> grid" self-reliant hi-rise?
> What is the laregest 'off the grid' system?
>

Freedom Tower uses 70% renewable. It isn't off-the-grid, but considering how political its design and construction was, it's surprising they even achieved that. I'm sure there was a lobby that wanted it to consume MORE resources.

Freedom tower uses a form of geothermal heat-exchange, piping hudson river water in for cooling. Many of Chicago's high-rises along Michigan Ave have done this for decades, piping water from Lake Michigan.

One Bryant Park is also very energy efficient. They freeze water overnight when energy is cheaper, to cool the building during peak hours. They use passive and PV solar.

I couldn't find a link, but there was a condo project in the financial district that tested an underwater turbine system to generate something like 40 to 60% of it's energy from the east river currents.

Solaire in Battery Park is an example of using Solar to de-peak their energy demands.

>
> "any investment is bad", never said that. I said I
> didn't want the gov (like Barrakus) to make
> investment descisions with my money. I'd like to
> see the gov motivate private industries to find
> solutions.
>

It's not your money, though. You pay taxes as an obligation, but that money doesn't belong to you once it has been paid to the government. Do you believe that the money you spend at Giant gives you a say in their business decisions?

>
> "Dominions practices in Virginia" are all gov
> regulated.

So I guess the government is a good defense when it supports your argument, but is a bad idea if you disagree with it? I mean, you do realize this is trying to have it both ways, don't you? I don't want Obama spending my money on a project that I believe is a bad idea, but I'm okay with the state of virginia making regulations that favor incumbent energy providers. I see.

"Energy efficiency is the key to any energy usage plan." We agree.

So its safe to say that your goal for a self contained hi-rises has not been met. And you blame the gov? Trust me, if it were cheaper (now or in the future), greed would prevail.

"I don't want Obama spending my money on a project that I believe is a bad idea, but I'm okay with the state of virginia making regulations that favor incumbent energy providers."

Not exactly. Stimulus without defined expectations was a bad idea. I don't want the gov handing out cash. I want them to motivate with tax incentives and requlations. What you claim they let the power cos do is wrong. Actually the 'gov' made 2 bad descisions, the stimulus and letting Dominion bully them.


"It's not your money, though." ...We the people....its our gov, our money. They work for us.


"Do you believe that the money you spend at Giant gives you a say in their business decisions?" If I don't like Chik-fil-a's stance on gay marrige, I boycott. So, yes when I spend money at any establishment I am indirectly supporting them. Its called 'the power of the purse'.

When the people lead....

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Energy efficiency is the key to any energy usage
> plan." We agree.
>
> So its safe to say that your goal for a self
> contained hi-rises has not been met. And you blame
> the gov? Trust me, if it were cheaper (now or in
> the future), greed would prevail.
>


I provided examples of how it has been met when proper guidance is given. The problem with the idea that the free market will always prevail is that the free market is full of just as many idiots as real life. You think a manager of a development company is looking out 25 years from today to say oh the manager of this building will love it when they start earning income beyond cost on this project? The free market is what have you done for me lately and instant gratification based.

Beyond that, the free market is no symbiotic it is parasitic. It is whatever helps the most for this project, and is unable to see that if multiple things go well the overall well being for all is also improved in a more stable and reliable way.

I dont know why you would think the free market is the end all be all decider on what is right when we just came out of a period when the free market nearly brought down the US economy via poor outlook and risky practices.

The point is, those who ARE seeing past today ARE already moving forward. You ask for numbers that are big and prove my point. I cant do that, because it is still evolving and becoming more of a trend every year. I wouldnt doubt that by the end of next year the number of Net zeros in the US will have doubled and continue that pace for several years until more jurisdictions see the benefit and it becomes much more of a norm.

As I said previously, Bell Atlantic use to mock telecomm companies for their tiny market share by scoffing "Who would ever switch from our reliable copper transmissions which encircle the world". Without the government guidance, allowance of certain bandwidths, research grants, and NASA technology we all would still be using those copper lines. Your mindset is what has always stood in the way of greatness and innovation. The age of dirty industry is waning and the people still holding onto their power have resorted to some really shitty practices, and sadly your GOP has their hands all over that money.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> So its safe to say that your goal for a self
> contained hi-rises has not been met. And you blame
> the gov? Trust me, if it were cheaper (now or in
> the future), greed would prevail.

I'm not saying anything like that. I don't blame the government, at least not exclusively.

Greed does prevail. For example, in new home construction. It is possible, for about 10 to 15% additional cost, that a home can be built that would have ZERO ongoing energy cost. Developers do not benefit from this savings, but they benefit by NOT doing this, and laying the energy cost on the future homeowners. Greed prevails, why should I spend $25,000, $35,000 more to build a home? My job is to build the house as cheaply as possible so I can make more money. It's the homeowner's job to be locked into years and years of $300+ monthly energy bills.

The only way new homes are going to ever be self-sufficient energy consumers is if state and federal guidelines require builders to use solar, wind, geothermal, and other efficiency methods. Builders do not have any motivation to spend additional money, they will not do this without some requirement. And yes, I realize that those costs get passed onto the buyer, but so do the savings. Without a requirement of some sort, it will never happen.

>
> "I don't want Obama spending my money on a project
> that I believe is a bad idea, but I'm okay with
> the state of virginia making regulations that
> favor incumbent energy providers."
>
> Not exactly. Stimulus without defined expectations
> was a bad idea. I don't want the gov handing out
> cash. I want them to motivate with tax incentives
> and requlations. What you claim they let the power
> cos do is wrong. Actually the 'gov' made 2 bad
> descisions, the stimulus and letting Dominion
> bully them.
>

What is the difference between a tax incentive or regulation, and direct investment? Sometimes tax incentives work, other times direct investment works. You can't rely on one or the other, and quite frankly, the people who are feeding you the idea that incentives are the only reasonable way are incumbent and can make use of tax breaks. A start-up cannot fund a company on future tax windfalls, and is a threat to incumbents. Which is why there is an effort to make people view it negatively.



> "It's not your money, though." ...We the
> people....its our gov, our money. They work for
> us.
>
>
> "Do you believe that the money you spend at Giant
> gives you a say in their business decisions?" If I
> don't like Chik-fil-a's stance on gay marrige, I
> boycott. So, yes when I spend money at any
> establishment I am indirectly supporting them. Its
> called 'the power of the purse'.
>
> When the people lead....

The people do not lead, though. Mobs do not have that kind of power. Mobs can agree or disagree, but the agendas are driven by the people who directly benefit from the agendas.

You INDIRECTLY support a business. You do not have a say in their policies or practices. You pay taxes as an obligation. So do 150 million or so other people. You can ponder and postulate about what the government gets right and what it gets wrong all day long, but you aren't even remotely part of the decision-making process. But it sounds good to say "I pay taxes, and my business acumen would have all this stuff fixed if only they'd listen to me."

You have used a broad brush to paint me and my view point. In doing so have missed (or avoided) my simple original point.

Obama's $50 mil stimulus to the danish windmill co was wasteful.


I will try and find time later tonight to respond to all the new ideas you suggested I belive in.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have used a broad brush to paint me and my
> view point. In doing so have missed (or avoided)
> my simple original point.
>
> Obama's $50 mil stimulus to the danish windmill co
> was wasteful.
>
>

Invading Iraq and spending almost a trillion dollars and wasting 2,500 soldiers' lives was extremely wasteful. But nobody started up a tea party over it.

Investing $50 million for wind energy was an investment. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't. Believe it is wasteful if you like, but they are going to have to do a lot more before we achieve energy independence. We can't just poo poo any investment in renewable resources and just proclaim extraction-based resources as our only future. Even Nuclear has limitations, and can only be part of the solution.

Let's also not forget that Fox News and other right-wing sources have pulled a hand full of examples out of a larger portfolio, and used those to conclude that the Obama administration is a failure and renewables are a boondoggle. I suspect for the two examples of failure, there are dozens or more that are not failures.

And the brush gets wider.

HOA MGR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And the brush gets wider.


Says the person who thinks that a single companies economic troubles which mostly have to do with politics (fears of removal of a tax credit) relates to an entire industry.

http://www.examiner.com/article/texas-wind-power-sets-a-record-but-continues-to-take-it-up-a-notch

http://bostonglobe.com/opinion/letters/2012/11/26/wind-power-offers-many-economic-benefits-for-massachusetts/4wqmOmPFMDswoxcBYDL0UK/story.html

http://www.nanowerk.com/news2/green/newsid=27745.php

http://blog.cleanenergy.org/2012/11/26/establishing-a-wind-powered-economic-zone-north-myrtle-beach-reaches-for-offshore-wind/

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/11/30/china-forecast-to-hit-150-gw-installed-wind-capacity-by-2015/

Jackass

Stopped following a website which has as categories

Big Government | Big Hollywood | Big Journalism | Big Peace?

With latest headlines;

Obama's Fiscal Cliff Offer Is a Slap In the Media's Face

Norquist: New, Larger 'Tea Party Second Wave' Coming

Obama's Insulting Fiscal Cliff Proposal Lauded as 'Strategic Move'

POLL: MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT RAISING TAXES ON TOP EARNERS with the writers first comment being In a clear sign of how Republicans are losing the messaging battle on taxes, 61% of registered voters favor raising taxes on those making $250,000 a year, according to an ABC News/Washington Post poll conducted Nov. 20-25.

You want to be a serious person and citizen? Start being a serious and knowledgeable person by reading scientific papers on the subject, attend the Virginia Environmental Symposium hosted by the US Navy at VMI, or read something that isnt funded by Crossroads USA.

Jesus

"Says the person who thinks that a single companies economic troubles which mostly have to do with politics (fears of removal of a tax credit) relates to an entire industry."

I never said that. Just posted a few facts. Keep painting.


"Stopped following a website which has as categories", translates to "read what I read and you'll think like me"

Heres a hint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stopped following a website which has as
> categories
>
> Big Government | Big Hollywood | Big Journalism |
> Big Peace?
>
> With latest headlines;
>
> Obama's Fiscal Cliff Offer Is a Slap In the
> Media's Face
>
> Norquist: New, Larger 'Tea Party Second Wave'
> Coming
>
> Obama's Insulting Fiscal Cliff Proposal Lauded as
> 'Strategic Move'
>
> POLL: MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT RAISING TAXES
> ON TOP EARNERS with the writers first comment
> being In a clear sign of how Republicans are
> losing the messaging battle on taxes, 61% of
> registered voters favor raising taxes on those
> making $250,000 a year, according to an ABC
> News/Washington Post poll conducted Nov. 20-25.
>
> You want to be a serious person and citizen? Start
> being a serious and knowledgeable person by
> reading scientific papers on the subject, attend
> the Virginia Environmental Symposium hosted by the
> US Navy at VMI, or read something that isnt funded
> by Crossroads USA.
>
> Jesus


You mean like one with these instead?


- White Man Shoots And Kills Black Student In Florida After Argument Over Loud Music

- Florida Republicans Admit Voter Suppression Was The Goal Of New Election Laws

- Fox News Abruptly Ends Interview After Guest Calls Out The Network For Hyping Benghazi Scandal

- NOM Now Warning Against Young People Having Gay Friends

- Fox Host: People Who Died In Walmart Factory Fire Were Thankful For Their Jobs


Jesus

lol

I did chuckle when on called me a Jackass and the other Jesus.

Thinkbox MC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obama is saving our country from the Bush
> mistakes.
>
> only racists are against him.
>
> fuck off.


You're the dumbest nigger I've seen on this board
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