I go into the Lowe's and the signs are all in Espanol? What?? this is America!

Oh, well they are hard workers. But they need to learn to speek American!

Get a little education and diversity....learning a foreign language broadens your mind!

.
Attachments:

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get a little education and diversity....learning a
> foreign language broadens your mind!



I fully agree with you Vince(1), learning a foreign language does broaden your mind. I am fluent in 3 languanges and in the process of becoming proficient in a fourth. I decided to learn the other languages because my job entails a great deal of foreign travel and interaction with foreign businessmen. However, what does it say about those that come to this country for work and take no steps to learn the language? Are they not interested in broadening their minds? Do you think that they are not capable? Are they not deserving of education? Seems to me your comment smacks of a bit of elitism. What, they are good enough to paint your house and mow your lawn, but they aren't capable of learning English?

I learned foreign languages to help me succeed in my job when I have foreign contacts. I prefer to be able to speak the native language to the places I travel, especially on business. Perhaps our recent immigrant friends should embrace that notion.

Wow...I guess I am wrong about the benefits of learning a foreign language. To have read all that into my simple statement surely indicates your basic misunderstanding of the english language. It says what it says and impliess...it is no big deal for official forms and public signs to be written multiple languages to help those who have recently arrived in the country. That's all I said/implied...and that's all I meant.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow...I guess I am wrong about the benefits of
> learning a foreign language. To have read all
> that into my simple statement surely indicates
> your basic misunderstanding of the english
> language. It says what it says and impliess...it
> is no big deal for official forms and public signs
> to be written multiple languages to help those who
> have recently arrived in the country. That's all
> I said/implied...and that's all I meant.


Actually, Vince(1), you seem to not even understand your own words. You only are applying your logic to English only speakers. You don't seem to have any intention to have your statement apply to non-English speakers. I believe it should apply to all. What is good for the goose.......

Well...there you go again! How you do love to put words in my mouth. No one has more to gain from learning English then a recent immigrant. The fact is they probably know more English then we know Spanish...French or any other language in total. Again, my only point is that there is nothing wrong with offering forms and signs in a foreign language.

Now that I have explained what I mean for the third time...why not tell us what you're trying to say? Dont speak for me...speak for yourself!

Nowhere else in the world would dare have signs printd in multiple languages. "Get it or get out" is the phrase other, less enlightened, countries use.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2008 07:39PM by Radiophile.
Attachments:

well there is a benefit to speaking English, it's the most descriptive languages to date. spanish on the other hand has a very basic vocabulary.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Screw'em.

The problem isn't one of language, really. It's a culture issue.

Sure, America is based on a mixing of many cultures. But much of this happened at the turn of the century as families immigrated through Ellis Island. We all shared a certain hardship. There was a similar struggle, even if our cultures dictacted differences. Black and Native Americans had a different story of 'integration' and acceptance but it still was about focusing on our similarities and accepting our shared humanity.

Mexican immigrant, unfortunately, haven't and likely won't experience this fate. Times are different. Americans are suspicious of jobs being stolen, interest rates rising, credit card debt affecting our bottom line. Add on top of this the language barrier. Then add the Mexican cultural interest in being prolific child bearers, not investing in seemingly frivolous things like car insurance or English language assitance, and playing ear splitting Mexican folk music on car stereos. We can argue those last three generalities to oblivion. But every culture (including white culture) has its ups and terrible downs. And you have to admit you've had more than 1 occasion where you were sitting at a red light and had to contend with the music, went to the grocery store and noticed 2 18-year old moms with 4 children between them, or ordered at McDonalds and been greeted with both English and Spanish and when altering your order were met with a look of "huh".

The generalities are rude and hurtful. But they're based on real experience.

So, I think Mexicans will have a hard time integrating. Changing their living situation is much easier. Trying to accomodate themselves into a neighborhood that accepts them because stores are in Spanglish, people working there are bi-lingual, grocery stories feature items their culture values. And who can blame them... wanting to live in a neighborhood they recognize or that when they step out the door feels accepting? Everyone wants that. And people who've had it all their lives only know this when it's taken from them and their neighborhood seems altered.

"What should we do"?

You have two choices.

1) Move. To an area that resembles what you used to appreciate in your neighborhood. And hope it doesn't change.

2) Stay. And find a way to not be miserable. Which means either learning Spanish or being hard-headed and not learning it... sticking with your personal ideals. It also means finding a way to not be annoyed with your Mexican neighbors or those you encounter at the grocery store or at the red lights OR outright accecpting your racist tendencies and finding a way to deal with the stress internally.

The choices aren't awesome.
But that's what you've got to deal with.

And, in the end, at least by accepting you're a racist you're being honest about the full situation.

yeaaaaaa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem isn't one of language, really. It's a
> culture issue.
>
> Sure, America is based on a mixing of many
> cultures. But much of this happened at the turn
> of the century as families immigrated through
> Ellis Island. We all shared a certain hardship.
> There was a similar struggle, even if our cultures
> dictacted differences. Black and Native Americans
> had a different story of 'integration' and
> acceptance but it still was about focusing on our
> similarities and accepting our shared humanity.
>
> Mexican immigrant, unfortunately, haven't and
> likely won't experience this fate. Times are
> different. Americans are suspicious of jobs being
> stolen, interest rates rising, credit card debt
> affecting our bottom line. Add on top of this the
> language barrier. Then add the Mexican cultural
> interest in being prolific child bearers, not
> investing in seemingly frivolous things like car
> insurance or English language assitance, and
> playing ear splitting Mexican folk music on car
> stereos. We can argue those last three
> generalities to oblivion. But every culture
> (including white culture) has its ups and terrible
> downs. And you have to admit you've had more than
> 1 occasion where you were sitting at a red light
> and had to contend with the music, went to the
> grocery store and noticed 2 18-year old moms with
> 4 children between them, or ordered at McDonalds
> and been greeted with both English and Spanish and
> when altering your order were met with a look of
> "huh".
>
> The generalities are rude and hurtful. But
> they're based on real experience.
>
> So, I think Mexicans will have a hard time
> integrating. Changing their living situation is
> much easier. Trying to accomodate themselves into
> a neighborhood that accepts them because stores
> are in Spanglish, people working there are
> bi-lingual, grocery stories feature items their
> culture values. And who can blame them... wanting
> to live in a neighborhood they recognize or that
> when they step out the door feels accepting?
> Everyone wants that. And people who've had it all
> their lives only know this when it's taken from
> them and their neighborhood seems altered.
>
> "What should we do"?
>
> You have two choices.
>
> 1) Move. To an area that resembles what you used
> to appreciate in your neighborhood. And hope it
> doesn't change.
>
> 2) Stay. And find a way to not be miserable.
> Which means either learning Spanish or being
> hard-headed and not learning it... sticking with
> your personal ideals. It also means finding a way
> to not be annoyed with your Mexican neighbors or
> those you encounter at the grocery store or at the
> red lights OR outright accecpting your racist
> tendencies and finding a way to deal with the
> stress internally.
>
> The choices aren't awesome.
> But that's what you've got to deal with.
>
> And, in the end, at least by accepting you're a
> racist you're being honest about the full
> situation.


A couple of things are flawed here. Number one, I suspect the "Mexican" population in this area is actually quite low. The El Salvadorean, Honduran, etc population is quite high, from my experience.

Number two, how is any of this being "racist?" Being Hispanic is not a race, it's an ethnicity.

My brother dates a woman from Columbia. She's here legally and she speaks fluent English. She put herself through college and it educated. She is now gainfully employed. Even SHE has a problem with the illegals in this area. She can't stand people from Central America as they are viewed as the absolute bottom of the barrel. They are uneducated and generally unsavory people. They have no desire to be an "American" like she does. They refuse to assimilate, learn English, and basically be productive people, other than having entirely too many children than they can afford. The kinds she hates are the types who have to run around with bumper stickers and flags from El Salvador and Ecuador and who expect American culture, and yes, there IS such a thing, to adapt to them,


This is no different than if, all of a sudden, a bunch of white guys wearing khakis and polo shirts started hanging out down in El Salvador on the street corner and then all of a sudden more white guys followed. Pretty soon the white guys took over entire neighborhoods and busiensses. Then the white guys refused to speak any other language than English and then demanded the same from the locals and the government. Don't tell me for a minute that the El Salvadoreans wouldn't resent the changes the "new neighbors" brought to their community. Would you be calling them "racist" as well? Food for thought...

Yes, I would call them racist as well.

And before you go FREAKING OUT over the use of the word, I've come to terms with it myself and am a racist. I'm not terribly ashamed of it. I like the way I grew up and the way I could run around with other kids and everyone spoke English and at school they didn't try to force us to learn Espagnol. I look out my window now and see neighborhood kids all playing, even there I see two distinct groups - the kids who speak only Spanish (and in fact use defamatory Spanish words much of the time!) and the kids who speak English and are American thru & thru. You would hope that children at that age wouldn't already be presented with a cultural divide but they are and it's sad. At the same time... the responsibility is there for immigrant parents to help their children assimilate into the culture they brought them and dropped them into.

My husband and are I are two different, as you say, "ETHNICITIES". He learned English when he came to this country. It was hard. His family paid for program after program, forced him to speak English with kids, literally made him assimilate in a matter of months. He now has no accent and you would wonder how he accomplished that. He did it by recognizing (as did his parents) that he was in someone elses country and he needed to conform in ways that would make living here better. Conformity isn't ALL bad. When we want a job with more responsibility and management authority, don't we all try to act more professional, dependable, and managerial to demonstrate we can eat/sleep/think the new job position? We try to FIT IN to the mold that the job requires. I just think that moving to a new country is the same. You try to fit in or you force yourself into a box where everything is that much harder.

Also, while you seem to take exception with the words race & ethnicity - try recognizing the fact that while technically we are all ONE RACE it has been commonplace for more decades than either of us have lived through to refer to different ethnicities as RACES. Perhaps that was one way we all separated ourselves that much further, making us feel even more different from the people we disliked or didn't wish to know more about. I don't know. Scholars have studied this and if one is amongst us, I'm sure they'll chime in. But, bottom line... YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT. And to split hairs over the term "race" or "ethnicity" is really just semantics. Missing the point.

I still feel we all have a choice to make. NOVA is increasingly opening its doors to South American residents. We can learn to accept and love and ease the integration of these prolific Spanish-speaking cultures that continue to cross our borders and make homes here. Or don't.

Perhaps you assumed too much about me. I have chosen to not learn Spanish. To not accept people who don't wish to learn our language. And I even get a little beligerent (sp?) when some a-hole has to leave 2 flyers on my door for local businesses (1 in spanish, 1 in english) -- I don't want ANY junk mail, let alone TWO copies. I don't think this makes me a bad person. I don't think this makes it hard for me to sleep at night. And, yes, I accept that this makes me more than a tad bit racist because now when I see someone remotely Mexican/Honduran/Peruvian (insert ethnicity here because I'm sure you'll say I left one out) I presume A LOT about them, before they've even opened their mouth. But it is what it is. And I'm not interested in accepting or getting used to or even accommodating all the recent immigrants I keep seeing who don't especially seem to want to live in America so much as to visit, earn cash easier than they would in their native country, and then head back home with some cash in their pockets.

yeaaaaaa Wrote:
> You have two choices.
>
> 1) Move. To an area that resembles what you used
> to appreciate in your neighborhood. And hope it
> doesn't change.
>
> 2) Stay. And find a way to not be miserable.
> Which means either learning Spanish or being
> hard-headed and not learning it... sticking with
> your personal ideals. It also means finding a way
> to not be annoyed with your Mexican neighbors or
> those you encounter at the grocery store or at the
> red lights OR outright accecpting your racist
> tendencies and finding a way to deal with the
> stress internally.

Do you think it is "racist" to wish to speak the national
language of your own country while living in your own country?

A language is not a "race", by the way.

Anyway, I would think the opposite. For example,
if I went to France and demanded that everyone there
speak English and have the signs posted in English,
that would be stupid. And I bet you would criticize
me for it. Why don't you think that when it's about
foreigners, illegals, and recent immigrants to the USA?

Also, there are two more possible options besides the
ones that you listed.

4. Push your government to enforce the immigration laws
so that the illegals will be deported and kept out;
you may also wish to tighten up the laws and remove
the "born to foreigners on US soil" provision.

5. Take over the neighborhood businesses and change
the signs back to whatever you want. It's America,
after all!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2008 03:13PM by Spacy.

yeaaaaaa Wrote:
> I accept that this makes me more than a tad bit
> racist because now when I see someone remotely
> Mexican/Honduran/Peruvian (insert ethnicity here
> because I'm sure you'll say I left one out) I
> presume A LOT about them, before they've even
> opened their mouth.

All I presume is that maybe they speak Spanish.
But I'm new around here.

I presume other things if they are standing outside
of the 7-11 down the street at Culmore. But those
things I'm presuming are all true!

Where I've been living (Boston) for the last 30 years, there
were lots of people in my daily life who were white, black,
asian of many varieties, Latino, Indian, and middle eastern.
My neighborhood was largely Armenian. All these people had
all kinds of religions and cultures. Around here in Fairfax,
there seems to be a lot less diversity. When you have a big
influx of just one kind of people, it seems a lot more like
an invasion. If they are not interested in joining the
society and culture that our country has established, at
least to the point of learning English, then they are in
fact invaders who are just colonizing the area.

A lot of this is our fault. Well, we could single out
Ted Kennedy and the immigration reform act, or other
politicians and government policies about allowing
(and exploiting) migrant workers to colonize.
But in the end, we voted for this shit and didn't catch
it until it was a little too late for a simple answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2008 03:28PM by Spacy.

Our economy drove the immigration....it has for the last 500 years and will continue to be so for the future. We'll have a lot more to worry about when they stop coming here for economic reasons.