Elevated rail line through Tysons ‘hideous’
http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/article/20120713/OPINION/707139868/1065/elevated-rail-line-through-tysons-hideous&template=fairfaxTimes

In the Fairfax County Times recent report about Tysons Corner development, the principals in the discussion dwelt on cost and its sharing. You never read in Tysons’ articles any reference to aesthetics.

I can see why. It’s too late to consider creating anything that will present Tysons with the appearance of a city.

Approaching Tysons Corner on Dolley Madison Boulevard from the east recently, I thought how unfortunate that the “Under Not Over” effort failed.

The Metrorail structure is monstrously overpowering. The high-rise office buildings and hotels north of the highway are masked by the immense cement columns and track bed of the rail system. The station near International Drive looms like a forbidding fortress. And nothing relieves the huge cement box structure nearest International Drive. The whole thing is a hideous mistake.

If it were ever possible to identify the individuals who made the decisions that produced this ugly eyesore, they should be barred from influencing any project in which inviting appearance should be a prime consideration.

James W. McCulla, McLean

Here here!

curious Wrote:
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> Here here!

+10000

Nonsense. Every time I hear about the California high speed train to no where, I think about the Metro arguments here. Not just Tysons, but also about the project labor agreement and the station at Dulles. Thankfully, people in Virginia still care about not bankrupting ourselves for all these 'nice to haves'. Would a below ground route through Tysons have been prettier? Of course. It was also way more expensive. It's nice to know that once in a while government can stop themselves from spending our children's future taxes to get something really cool but also unaffordable.

harry homeowner Wrote:
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> Would a below ground route
> through Tysons have been prettier? Of course. It
> was also way more expensive.

Not true.

Check_your_Facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> harry homeowner Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Would a below ground route
> > through Tysons have been prettier? Of course.
> It
> > was also way more expensive.
>
> Not true.

Why do you believe that the above ground route is prettier?

He's trying to refute the idea that underground rail would be more expensive, however he is wrong. Not only would it have cost an additional several hundreds of millions more for underground lines and stations, it would've tacked on a whole year to the construction time.

Looks like check_your_facts, *takes off sunglasses* needs to check his facts. YYEEEEEAAAHH!

Is it true if you purchase a home in Tysons the seller gets to kick you repeatedly in the nuts.

so yr suggesting maybe they should tear it down and rebuild it?

and like Caruso says, any idiot knows putting the line underground doubles/triples/quads the project costs..........

Mr. McCulla (OP) -

Why do you also hate children playing sports? Seems like you are cranky old bastard that wants to decide for everyone how and where their tax dollars should be spent. "Build me a tunnel" "Don't put a soccer field near my house"

I hope the runoff from the artificial turf doesn't ruin your lawn.

The orange line is at capacity from west falls in, already. Where are all the people who ride the silver line going to go?

Here here "mr. maybe a rumor"! This is mc lean not manassas the proper term is rochmambeau.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rochambeau+south+park&oq=rochambeau&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l4j0i5l2.1511.1511.0.5310.1.1.0.0.0.0.86.86.1.1.0...0.0...1ac.KwdhIr52TSY


And yes metro through tysons and dulles is a turd no matter whre you live.

The time to complain was long before now. Anyone bitching about how it looks needs to provide proof they were active in the "under not over" movement before ground broke or they can STFU. Too late. And yes it looks crazy, I hadn't driven through Tysons since before construction and recently drove through. Very, very different.

I kind of like the way it looks, a sort of high tech futuristic look. Tysons is a shithole anyway, so what does it matter.

Tysons is a fucking dump, a giant pile of asphalt and ugly buildings. And people are upset by the look of a rail line?

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
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> and like Caruso says, any idiot knows putting the
> line underground doubles/triples/quads the project
> costs..........

Absolutely. Engineers must be idiots then.

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_directors/board_docs/030807_RevTysonsTunnel.ASCE.pdf

what the fuck Wrote:
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> Tysons is a fucking dump, a giant pile of asphalt
> and ugly buildings. And people are upset by the
> look of a rail line?


Never understood the attraction of Tysons myself either.

Fugly and the place is a mess all the time. The Metro layout has just made that worse.

repeating again and again until it sinks in.... dulles metro through tysons is a real estate development project, not a transportation project.

repeating again Wrote:
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> repeating again and again until it sinks in....
> dulles metro through tysons is a real estate
> development project, not a transportation project.


The sentiment in many (most?) civilized countries is that there needs to be public transportation (here, Metro) from the international airport to the downtown part of the city. That being said, with the expected cost of taking Metro from Dulles to downtown DC, it seems like we should just subsidize the cost of taking a taxi.

I live just off of the Hunter Mil Road interchange with the DTR, and if rates go up as predicted, I will be out of here entirly...

curious Wrote:
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> Here here!

Where where?

Or did you mean, "Hear hear!"?

It's not tricky...

Theres no debating below ground would have been much more costly. Nothing underground ever stays on budget and usually cant even remotely stay close to budget. Look at the big dig in boston, trying to dig under tysons would have produced similar results.

People can try and BS it all they want because thats how they wanted the project to be but it is ALWAYS cheaper and faster to build above ground and all you have to do is look at the history of any large scale under ground project to see that

Old County Chairman Jack Herrity(whom I didn't agree with on much but who I thought didn't take presents from developers like other supervisors,Democrats included) advocated this is idea at a much lower cost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
but as mentioned above the Dulles Metro Line was a real estate development project to make landowners and developers very very rich and a lot less about being a transportation project

And some folks don't think a developer won't be able to get changes made to Windsept Farm property to increase building density.

Wilbur Wrote:
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> Old County Chairman Jack Herrity(whom I didn't
> agree with on much but who I thought didn't take
> presents from developers like other
> supervisors,Democrats included) advocated this is
> idea at a much lower cost
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
> but as mentioned above the Dulles Metro Line was a
> real estate development project to make landowners
> and developers very very rich and a lot less about
> being a transportation project
>
> And some folks don't think a developer won't be
> able to get changes made to Windsept Farm property
> to increase building density.


When was this proposed? Too bad that it did not get much traction since it is the type of solution that seemed to make sense for the entire Metro extension, although I would have favored light rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail) over BRT. The upfront cost for LRT would have been slightly more than BRT, but nowhere near the cost of the "heavy" construction and infrastructure required to support the Metro extension to Tysons and Dulles.

LRT offers speed, comfort and could have used the existing right-of-way along the Dulles Toll Road without pouring nearly as much concrete and being completed a lot sooner.

Can I park my car underneath the elevated tracks since no commuter parking lots are planned near the new stations?

Yes, the tracks just levitate so you can park underneath them.

Its time to stop whining about it, and start finding ways to make it look better. There are hundreds of examples of good looking elevated rail in the world too

http://thetysonscorner.com/its-time-to-stop-whining-about-elevated-rail/

it's uglier than a sack of dicks! way to fuck up a fucked up area! counting down my days to getting the fuck out of this shit hole.

Senor we can not wait for day to start tagging ole'

Cool, tons of gangs tagging up the King Street stop too ay? If you havent noticed all the hispanic gangs are already out in the burbs where your dumbasses live. AKA Herndon, Reston, Manasshole, FBurg

They go where its cheap, your neighborhood.

Save your Ole's for Commerce Drive and Alabama Avenue (little hispanola) without metro

It's just because it's different. No more hideous than King Street or half the one's in Maryland.

Sure the elevated line is unattractive, but constructing it was FAR less expensive than the underground option...and required FAR less time.

Also, let's not kid ourselves. Tyson's was in no way attractive before the elevated line was constructed. Route 7 through Tyson's was home to a collection of strip malls and car dealerships.

Did the elevated line sully the beauty of Tyson's town center...with its pedestrian mall, skating rink, band stand, and routine outdoor festivals? Oh yeah, no such thing exists. That is in Reston. Tyson's was and continues to be an edge-city blight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_city

Tyson's Corner don't listen to these clowns, you are beautiful!!!!!

Signed,

Merrifield

Lester Burnham Wrote:
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> Wilbur Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Old County Chairman Jack Herrity(whom I didn't
> > agree with on much but who I thought didn't
> take
> > presents from developers like other
> > supervisors,Democrats included) advocated this
> is
> > idea at a much lower cost
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
> > but as mentioned above the Dulles Metro Line was
> a
> > real estate development project to make
> landowners
> > and developers very very rich and a lot less
> about
> > being a transportation project
> >
> > And some folks don't think a developer won't be
> > able to get changes made to Windsept Farm
> property
> > to increase building density.
>
>
> When was this proposed? Too bad that it did not
> get much traction since it is the type of solution
> that seemed to make sense for the entire Metro
> extension, although I would have favored light
> rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail)
> over BRT. The upfront cost for LRT would have
> been slightly more than BRT, but nowhere near the
> cost of the "heavy" construction and
> infrastructure required to support the Metro
> extension to Tysons and Dulles.
>
> LRT offers speed, comfort and could have used the
> existing right-of-way along the Dulles Toll Road
> without pouring nearly as much concrete and being
> completed a lot sooner.

I always thought light rail along the W&OD right of way would be inexpensive and a great boon to intercounty travel. But the right of way is not wide enough so it would have to be a suspended monorail. Which would work with keeping the trail open for use. I would advocate minimal parking. Stops served by bus mostly. The rail could go from near Dulles all the way into town or just to West Falls Church station. Maybe it could be run by a private company so there would be some chance of it not being run like the "jobs program" I commute on every f**king day.

Scenic Gallows Road Wrote:
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> Tyson's Corner don't listen to these clowns, you
> are beautiful!!!!!
>
> Signed,
>
> Merrifield


Merrifield don't worry. You are just a late bloomer.

Clueless_Idiots_of_FU Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gordon Blvd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > and like Caruso says, any idiot knows putting
> the
> > line underground doubles/triples/quads the
> project
> > costs..........
>
> Absolutely. Engineers must be idiots then.
>
> http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_director
> s/board_docs/030807_RevTysonsTunnel.ASCE.pdf




Or you are asstard...and I AM an engineer. Why is your source considered unbiased in any way? Wait, a group of civil engineers favors a large-scale complex engineering project rather than the assembly of pre-cast components?! Holy shit...knock me over with a feather.


1) Even the link that you provided states that a large bore tunnel (WITHOUT underground stations) was estimated to cost $250 million dollars more than the aerial option. In addition, $900 million dollars in federal funding was in jeopardy if the tunnel option was selected for failure to pursue the most "cost effective" option. That's over 1 billion dollars sparky.

2) I will sell a bridge to anyone who believes that the tunnel was only going to cost approximately 10% more. Ever dig a dunnel you condescending asshat? I am an engineer...and I guarentee you that they would have encountered unexpected difficulties...and delays...and cost overruns...as opposed to assembling track framework components constructed off site.

3) The operating and maintenance costs of a tunnel would have VASTLY exceeded those of the aerial option...regardless of what that study states. Do you have any idea what it takes to keep fresh air moving through a tunnel...and water out? The routine structural inspections required? The cost to repair for a derailment, fire, or explosion?

4) Your source also stated "delayed by up to one year to complete sufficient Preliminary Engineering and secure National Environmental Policy Act and equivalentState legislation approval". One year delay...and I would bet my house that they would have missed even that date by a mile.

5) Even the ASCE admitted that the impact to the Toll Road (and cross streets) would have been severe during tunnel construction.



And for what?! To preserve the beauty of strip malls and car dealerships...or a 12 lane highway?

sdvasdfasdfgfg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clueless_Idiots_of_FU Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gordon Blvd Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > and like Caruso says, any idiot knows putting
> > the
> > > line underground doubles/triples/quads the
> > project
> > > costs..........
> >
> > Absolutely. Engineers must be idiots then.
> >
> >
> http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_director
>
> > s/board_docs/030807_RevTysonsTunnel.ASCE.pdf
>
>
>
>
> Or you are asstard...and I AM an engineer. Why is
> your source considered unbiased in any way? Wait,
> a group of civil engineers favors a large-scale
> complex engineering project rather than the
> assembly of pre-cast components?! Holy
> shit...knock me over with a feather.


I am an engineer too, asshat.

Run the numbers on the cost overruns to date. The tunnel WOULD HAVE BEEN approximately the same price that has already been outlayed.

This was a political game by certain Members of Congress, asshat. This was NOT a "it would be cheaper to run an elevated line" decision.

Fucktard.

geez, girls. calm down yr both pretty enough to go to prom, ok? LoLz

Look everyone - y'all can argue about what is/isnt cheaper all day long but bottom line is that the train lines already been built so this entire thread is kinda like a bunch of drunks arguing real turf/artificial turf to the point of almost fistfight, y'know?


pic unrelated
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asdf;lkj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am an engineer too, asshat.
>
> Run the numbers on the cost overruns to date. The
> tunnel WOULD HAVE BEEN approximately the same
> price that has already been outlayed.
>
> This was a political game by certain Members of
> Congress, asshat. This was NOT a "it would be
> cheaper to run an elevated line" decision.
>
> Fucktard.


I'm not an engineer but if you're comparing the real-world cost to date with the fantasy estimate for the tunnel then that's just a dumbass argument. You could count on the same level of over-run for the tunnel plus a bunch.

Obvious someone either didn't read Gordon's post of this asshat (aka Fucktard) is just ignoring it.

New argument; which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Sincerely,
Fu

TunnelingWouldbebetterbut Wrote:
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> Its time to stop whining about it, and start
> finding ways to make it look better.

Not to worry. Me and the boys are stocking up on spray paint and will use the Bronx and Philly as our guidance.

asdf;lkj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sdvasdfasdfgfg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Clueless_Idiots_of_FU Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Gordon Blvd Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > and like Caruso says, any idiot knows
> putting
> > > the
> > > > line underground doubles/triples/quads the
> > > project
> > > > costs..........
> > >
> > > Absolutely. Engineers must be idiots then.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_director
>
> >
> > > s/board_docs/030807_RevTysonsTunnel.ASCE.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Or you are asstard...and I AM an engineer. Why
> is
> > your source considered unbiased in any way?
> Wait,
> > a group of civil engineers favors a large-scale
> > complex engineering project rather than the
> > assembly of pre-cast components?! Holy
> > shit...knock me over with a feather.
>
>
> I am an engineer too, asshat.
>
> Run the numbers on the cost overruns to date. The
> tunnel WOULD HAVE BEEN approximately the same
> price that has already been outlayed.
>
> This was a political game by certain Members of
> Congress, asshat. This was NOT a "it would be
> cheaper to run an elevated line" decision.
>
> Fucktard.


You are an absolute retard if you think the linear cost of a tunnel is the same as above ground track...especially on the median of the toll road. Even your fucking biased study states that I am right.

Off with you now whiner. You lost. Let the train rumbling by each day remind you of that fact.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/17/AR2009101700716.html


Interesting extract:

At $85 million, the half-mile tunnel is the costliest and most complex engineering feat of the 23-mile Metro extension to Dulles International Airport. It will be built while 3,500 cars and trucks cross its path each hour, while the Courtyard Marriott serves breakfast and guests swim in its pool, while hands are shaken over aerospace deals at BAE Systems. It will carry on under two miles of tangled utility lines that convey to Tysons everything from electricity to some of the nation's most secret intelligence. As of Friday, after three months of digging and prep work, workers had hollowed out the half-mile tunnel's first 18 feet.

One wrong move and the foundation of an office garage could settle, a top-secret communique through the U.S. Army's microwave tower right above the tunnel's path by Clyde's restaurant could be lost.

"You've got gas lines, water lines, drainage lines, electrical duct banks, black wires and a lot more in a busy urban area, which makes for a very challenging tunneling environment," says Dominic Cerulli, the engineer for Bechtel in charge of building the tunnel. He guides visitors on the first tour of the project on a recent weekday. "I've been on jobs where you're tunneling out in the middle of a parking lot. Here you've got to keep businesses up and running."

And here is a study prepared by FOUR engineering firms for the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transit...which pretty much completely disagrees with that self-serving ASCE fantasy.

http://www.dullesmetro.com/pdfs/LBT_PDF_Report_Only_02.26.2007_000.pdf



A brief extract:


Proposed Schedule

The LBT alternative has not been through the required public selection processes for consultants and bidders, environmental studies, public hearings, design completion and independent reviews, nor ongoing FTA reviews and sign-offs to be eligible for federal support. The 54-month project schedule indicated in the Proposal does not include these activities, nor does it incorporate the time required for additional drilling and geotechnical analyses.

In addition, the 54-month schedule is highly compressed. It is based on an overly optimistic average advance rate for the tunnel work and a 7-day work week. Using a more reasonable average advance rate and considering a 5-day work week produces a significantly longer construction schedule of 70 months. The 54-month schedule assumes concurrent tunneling activities for the stations, which represents a major risk to the proposed construction schedule.


Proposed Costs

The Proposal does not have a detailed, bottom-up cost estimate. It uses portions of the April 2006 estimate for the aerial alignment, which are not current. Therefore, the results cannot provide an “apples-to–apples” comparison of the aerial and large bore tunnel alternatives. The cost information provided indicates assumptions of contingencies of 15% for the New Austrian Tunneling Method (NATM) Tunnel and 10% for the TBM Tunnel, which are low for this stage of project design. In addition, using a more reasonable average advance rate could increase tunneling costs by 14%, not including additional escalation from the longer construction schedule.

The overall conclusion is that the proposed single-bore tunnel through Tysons Corner may be technically feasible; however there are significant risks that the construction costs and schedule durations stated by Tysons Tunnel, Inc. will be exceeded. Underground construction presents unique risks that are not typically encountered on other types of heavy civil construction. It is industry practice to evaluate any tunnel project’s viability within a risk-based framework. This has not been done for the Tyson’s LBT and it is not accounted for in Tysons Tunnel Inc.’s project planning and scheduling.


Additional findings are as follows:

1. The proposed single-bore tunnel through Tysons Corner appears technically feasible, although underground construction is considered higher risk than construction above ground.

2. There is sufficient information on the Proposal schedule to assess the overall proposed sequencing and some overall activity durations. However, at the Preliminary Engineering level, a much more detailed schedule would be expected.

3. There are significant risks that the project costs and schedule durations stated by Tunnel at Tysons, JV will be exceeded.

4. While substantial, the level of effort put forth by Tysons Tunnel, Inc. does not meet the 30% level of design completion for Preliminary Engineering of a project of this scale and complexity. While this level of completion accurately describes certain sections of the documents, such as architectural drawings, other sections such as utility relocation drawings are in a conceptual stage. As such, there are many questions and issues that must be addressed before these documents can be issued to the construction industry for bid.

5. There is a significant risk that the project cost of a Large Bore Tunnel would not meet the FTA’s Cost Effectiveness ratio criteria, which could compromise federal funding for the project.

6. FTA’s most recent written comment is “as we noted in our meeting in September 2006, there are scheduling and environmental review consequences that should be considered if the Commonwealth decides to undertake additional study of a tunnel option.” Once the large bore tunnel had completed all requirements to be fundable under federal guidelines in a minimum of 2 years, it could be considered for support.

7. The project design and construction program carry significant risks that need to be mitigated. While these can likely be addressed through additional subsurface exploration and testing, additional design, and additional construction planning, it is probable that doing so would cause the project cost and schedule estimates stated in the Proposal to be exceeded.

8. Given the many risks identified in the current project design and construction program and the inadequate geotechnical data, the contingencies incorporated in the Proposal’s cost and schedule estimates are unrealistically low.

9. The Proposal’s cost bases for non-tunnel components are out of date and incorrect.

10. The TBM advance rates upon which the Proposal’s cost and schedule estimates are based are unlikely to be achievable given the anticipated subsurface conditions. A more realistic advance rate and production schedule would increase tunnel construction costs 14% or more, and increase the overall project construction schedule of between 7 and 16 months.

11. There are questions about the appropriate tunnel technology for this project. Once geotechnical investigations are completed, determining the technology is more feasible.

12. The Proposal assumes the use of EPBM technology but a letter states reuse of one of the SMART tunnel machines, which are slurry machines. Due to the required increase in diameter for the Tysons tunnel, and a prior rebuild of these machines, a detailed review of the feasibility is needed.

13. The Proposal design is based on a number of assumptions that do not conform with certain WMATA and national standards. A number of the assumptions, if brought into conformance, would cause an increase to the size of platforms, stations, and possibly even the main tunnel, increasing construction costs and construction schedule.

14. There are a number of additional items in the Proposal, including Visual and Noise benefits, Right of Way costs, construction staging requirements at the two tunnel portals, and transit vehicle storage savings, with which the reviewers take issue. A number of these items could cause an increase to the Proposal’s stated cost and schedule, or both.



So feel free to shut the fuck up now...Mr. "I'm an Engineer Too"

hdfhdfghh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> So feel free to shut the fuck up now...Mr. "I'm an
> Engineer Too"

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Tim, shouldn't you be out campaigning for Senate or something? Are you trying to stay away from the fact that the project should have been put out for competitive bid, and then the FTA cost effectiveness standards would have been moot?

Good luck with the your Senate campaign, Tim!

Poot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I kind of like the way it looks, a sort of high
> tech futuristic look.

I expected to hate it, but I also kinda like the modern look.

I see that no one is interested in discussing relative BENEFITS, nor shows any vision. All the comments are about initial construction costs, but that is not how such investment decisions are analysed, and a sense of the vision of a future Tysons is essential. The engineers responsible for the structure we now see were lacking in both perspectives, unfortunately. Think about the difference between the elevated's impact on its surroundings when Tyson's has been built out into a fringe city, compared with a tunnel. Think of central London, Paris, Rome or closer to home, Montreal - where they have been tearing down highway viaducts in favor of boulevards and are gradually over-building even the main line railway. The Tysons elevated rail is so old fashioned and discredited by experience in many great cities where viaducts are being torn down or turned into urban parks (New York!).

On the vision thing (and inter-generational benefits) it is worth noting that the original tunnel of the London Underground is still in use after more than 140 years, whereas some viaducts have had a useful life of only forty years.

Those disgracing themselves by using foul language to criticize Tysons are reminded that it is a major engine of Northern Virginia's prosperity and disproportionately provides tax revenue to subsidize poorer areas of the state.

It would be nice to return some civility to the discussion, we might then even learn something useful. Regards to all.

Dude, you would have some "vision" if you had this discussion years ago before the thing was built.

Now what you are doing is called whining.

No you can't, but commuters may simply park in the Tyson's parking garages or other open parking spots around any one of the new metro stations. I have seen little discussion of this but it seems like a huge problem. I can see a scenario where traffic to Tyson's actually gets worse because of commuters driving to Tyson's like they do at the Vienna station.

Posted by: Metro Rider ()
Date: July 14, 2012 09:03AM

Can I park my car underneath the elevated tracks since no commuter parking lots are planned near the new stations?
Geoff Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------
> No you can't, but commuters may simply park in the
> Tyson's parking garages or other open parking
> spots around any one of the new metro stations. I
> have seen little discussion of this but it seems
> like a huge problem. I can see a scenario where
> traffic to Tyson's actually gets worse because of
> commuters driving to Tyson's like they do at the
> Vienna station.

Well commuters are more likely to use the Wiehle station or the future Herndon/Reston/Ashburn stations which have 15000 spaces than to drive all the way to tysons, try to find a parking spot at the mall (which might be pay to park with validation in the future). If someone is driving all the way into tysons, then whats another 25 minutes to get into the city via 123 to GW, Old Dominion to 29, or if HOV 66.

Not putting parking garages in Tysons was a smart move, parking garages only make sense where people live but dont work. 125000 people work in Tysons, only 15000 live there. Park at the 7 other stations, doesnt seem like a stretch.

The elevated rail is hideous?

Good. Then it matches the rest of Tyson's Corner.

maybe a rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it true if you purchase a home in Tysons the
> seller gets to kick you repeatedly in the nuts.



Yes. Also in Vienna.

justsayin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The time to complain was long before now. Anyone
> bitching about how it looks needs to provide proof
> they were active in the "under not over" movement
> before ground broke or they can STFU. Too late.
> And yes it looks crazy, I hadn't driven through
> Tysons since before construction and recently
> drove through. Very, very different.

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/44143

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/156459

I did have the opportunity to drive through Tyson's/McLean this weekend. Wow, I agree - "hideous" is an excellent word.

so is anyone here bothering to suggest any sort of fix to this "problem"?
or is this thread just more of the......................of forget it why am I even bothering when I already know the answer.

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Note how the nice posters and pictures touting the Tyson area doesn't have any people in them.

I suggest camouflage -- In particular the use of "dazzle paint" like they used to use to confuse U-Boats during WWI.

Like so...
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repeating again Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> repeating again and again until it sinks in....
> dulles metro through tysons is a real estate
> development project, not a transportation project.

Tysons Corner circa 2040...
Attachments:

This thing was half-assed at every turn and the tax payers were fleeced. Betchel got this work on a no-bid deal, and now (surprise!) it will fail to meet the deadline and is going to go over budget. Seeing they contracted the company best known for the Boston "Big Dig" project, I can't say I am surprised.

Rail in Tysons should have been underground and the station at Dulles should have been too. The idiots in Loudoun decided to wait until the last two weeks before the "deadline" to figure out how to pay for their part.

This is a project to service the airport, run by the airport authority, but there were zero passenger facility charges levied to pay for it. Everything is off the back of the tax payer.

There are too many stops to make this a viable commuter line. Going from Herndon to DC will take forever with all the stops you will make. It should have been a true express train, built by Virginia without MWAA or Metro. IAD-Reston-Tysons-Rosslyn, and then you go downtown in Metro. Metro can't handle the infrastructure it oversees now. We are going to give them more responsibility? This is like taking your worst employee and handing them a big client to take care of when they already fail with their current clients.

But in the end, the pols will be able to say they built a train, and there are plenty of people out there who think this will solve all of the area's traffic woes among other unicorn like tales. I saw one comment on WaPo or WTOP who said the train station would double salaries in the area by 2030. Oh really? How exactly will a train cause that? I guess the pols are lucky most voters are idiots.

@Whole +1

I bitched about this before they got started - it should have TOTALLY been light rail just like you say and the whole "METRO"aspect of this is simply a red herring. and the Orange line from Falls Church to Farragut is going to suck huge monkey balls when all this starts

I already posted a solution. What you are looking at is the structural shell of the metro. If you look at a house before its facade is up you would also say, god that is ugly who the fuck wants to live in that. If you look at the shell of a highrise building with concrete and steel you would say the same.

There are tons of cases around the world of elevated rail being done right. The key is, the system can be improved aesthetically WITHOUT taxpayer money by selling the groundrights below the system and the air rights above the system to developers to build with the concession that a brick or other type of facade would be provided that is aesthetically pleasing. See the article below on variations on elevated rail that could work and cost on the order of 15-20 million for all of Tysons Corner (again paid for by developers with frontage who would by the Right of Way easements for development).

Its not rocket science, anyone who thinks oh well its just what it is, is just a defeatist and should move outta the way.

http://thetysonscorner.com/its-time-to-stop-whining-about-elevated-rail/

@whole

Actually, they are on budget, 150 million was a contract amendment not signed at the time of approval because they were trying to get in under the shovel ready project time frame. And they are on time, in fact they are actually ahead of time likely open will be end of 2013 not beginning of 2014

Get your facts right before spouting BS

But youare wrong Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @whole
>
> Actually, they are on budget, 150 million was a
> contract amendment not signed at the time of
> approval because they were trying to get in under
> the shovel ready project time frame. And they are
> on time, in fact they are actually ahead of time
> likely open will be end of 2013 not beginning of
> 2014
>
> Get your facts right before spouting BS

For Ito and Mondaymorningquarterback, et al: if you had not come so late to this issue you would have recognized that the few points I make are among many more that we're aired 5-6 years ago at public meetings and in the media during the Tysons Tunnel campaign. You could bring yourself up to date by a little Googling and perhaps be in a better position to make intelligent contributions to the thread.

The main issue now is how to minimize the blight effect of an overhead railway as plans are being finalized and construction starts to capitalize on metro service. One of the great ironies of the tunnel campaign was a frequent naive comment that it was just an effort by Tysons landowners to make more money, which is perhaps the strongest economic argument for the tunnel. The task now is to try to minimize economic and financial losses (including tax revenues) from this strategic mistake.

A secondary issue is accountability for this hideous mistake and what can be done to avoid such horrors in future.

Leaders of TysonsTunnel, Inc. commends the federal government for awarding $900 million for phase one of the 23-mile extension of the Metrorail system through Tysons Corner and onto Dulles
http://www.tysonstunnel.org/tt_news_press_031009.htm

International Airport, but also said that the group will continue the fight for a tunnel.

TYSONSTUNNEL IS EXPLORING LEGAL OPTIONS TO ENSURE
COMPETITIVE BIDDING FOR DULLES METRORAIL PROJECT
Group Applauds Federal Government for Awarding $900 Million
to Make Metro Rail to Dulles Airport a Reality

Tysons Corner, Va. (March 10, 2009) — Leaders of TysonsTunnel, Inc. today commended the federal government for awarding $900 million for phase one of the 23-mile extension of the Metrorail system through Tysons Corner and onto Dulles International Airport, but also said that the group will continue the fight for a tunnel.


Scott A. Monett, the organization’s president, said: “TysonsTunnel and its hundreds of thousands of grassroots supporters always have supported rail to Dulles International Airport and are happy to see that this day has finally arrived. It is a tremendous opportunity for
Northern Virginia and its citizens who live and work in or commute through the Dulles
Corridor. But we must build the Silver line the right way if we are to seize the full potential
of this opportunity.”

Monett renewed his call for federal and state leaders to require competitive bidding and a
tunnel under the busy business and shopping district that encompasses Tysons Corner.
TysonsTunnel is examining possible avenues for legal challenges to compel the project to be
competitively bid by state officials, he said.

At today’s signing of the formal agreement U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said: ‘This much-awaited project comes at a pivotal point as the Obama Administration begins to make vast improvements to our nation’s top transit systems…and help Tysons Corner become a more livable community.”

“We implore Secretary LaHood to live by his own words and make Tysons Corner a walkable downtown and a magnet for new businesses and residents. The only way to accomplish that desired outcome is to build a tunnel under Tysons Corner,” explained Monett.

Monett also stated that TysonsTunnel leaders are exploring legal options to compel the U.S. Transportation Department and the federal government to justify how a sole-source contract using U.S. taxpayer money was awarded to a multi-national corporation without competition. “Every farmer in Iowa, trucker in Ohio, teacher in California and factory worker in Illinois are contributing their tax dollars to enriching contractors who hijacked and corrupted this process,” asserted Monett.

“We do not want to derail this project, but we will do everything within our power to ensure competitive bidding for the first phase. TysonsTunnel and its supporters believe an elevated railway would be an unacceptable monstrosity that would ruin the image and limit the potential of Tysons Corner and surrounding areas of Northern Virginia for generations to come.”

“The Obama Administration has made it clear that jobs and transit are an important part of
restoring the nation’s economy. However, this step should not be taken at the expense of the
public it is meant to serve without the appropriate oversight and regulation of these megaprojects. The public will not be given the best value or the environmentally sound project we deserve. No project highlights this lack of transparency more than this $5.1 billion abuse of the public trust,” concluded Monett.

TysonsTunnel.org represents an unprecedented coalition of community associations, small businesses, environmental groups, landowners, civic groups, homeowner associations, major corporations and private citizens calling for construction of a tunnel under Tysons Corner.

# # #

For media inquiries:
Alan Greilsamer / Communications Resources, LLC
Phone: (703)760-7007 Office
E-mail: agreilsamer@communications-resources.com

For Ito and Mondaymorningquarterback, et al: if you had not come so late to this issue you would have recognized that the few points I make are among many more that were aired 5-6 years ago at public meetings and in the media during the Tysons Tunnel campaign.  You could bring yourself up to date by a little Googling and perhaps be in a better position to make intelligent contributions to the thread.

The main issue now is how to minimize the blight effect of an overhead railway as plans are being finalized and construction starts to capitalize on metro service.  One of the great ironies of the tunnel campaign was a frequent naive comment that it was just an effort by Tysons landowners to make more money, which is perhaps the strongest economic argument for the tunnel.  The task now is to try to minimize economic and financial losses (including tax revenues) from this strategic mistake.

A secondary issue is accountability for this hideous mistake and what can be done to avoid such horrors in future.  

Thanks for the double quote.

As I said before; Boo who its above ground. And yes its hideous because its still being built and the whole area looks like a bomb went off. Doesnt mean it will keep looking like that. The projects being built as of right now (Tysons Tower, 1775, Park Crest Two, Arbor Row, Ascent, Tysons West) account for about 1 billion dollars of investment into the city and its only 5% of total build out. When you have that kind of private equity and investment coming in, changes to make something "look pretty" are nothing comparably. It will get fixed, and as far as the idiot who said Tysons is blighted

Roiiiiiight, and what facts do you have supporting that? The 6 fortune 500s that call it headquarters? The 180 million dollars in real estate tax revenue it makes for the county? The over 200 million dollars in corporate and sales tax revenue it makes for the county? Or the land values that as recent as 2011 sold for 4 million per acre green field?

Check yer facts, construction = good not blighted. Lack of construction and shitty 1950s construction means blighted (and an applebees is usually a good sign too)

I'm pretty sure they plan to put something on the exterior to make it look nice.

I saw some large sheets of more designer looking stones laying on the ground driving by it the other day and it looked like it was some sort of facade.

If I see it driving home tonight I'll try to get a pic



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 03:30PM by Jander420.

I'm just glad they didn't do the tunnel. It would have been a disaster. Pic kinda related (florida=NoVA vs southern VA in VDOT funding LOL).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 02:56PM by flight risk.
Attachments:

Thanks Backtothepoint. I guess we have to agree to disagree. We obviously have different perspectives from different experience and aesthetic values. The issue of railways causing nearby blight and social divides is too well known to be worth debating, except perhaps with engineers who can be notoriously deaf to such negative benefits. I am looking forward to the viaduct beautification to come, but even so it will always be THERE.

One of the aspects of the tunnel decision you might find curious is that the US appears to be relatively tunnel-shy in general compared with the ease with which they are used to solve problems in Europe and Asia particularly (look up the numbers). The little three mile Tysons Tunnel would have been simple compared with the mega-tunnels constructed or under construction elsewhere, but the successful opponents talked it down as some kind of engineering frontier-breaking, which it was not, with every risk and downer they could pile on.

Havesomevvision Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Backtothepoint. I guess we have to agree
> to disagree. We obviously have different
> perspectives from different experience and
> aesthetic values. The issue of railways causing
> nearby blight and social divides is too well known
> to be worth debating, except perhaps with
> engineers who can be notoriously deaf to such
> negative benefits. I am looking forward to the
> viaduct beautification to come, but even so it
> will always be THERE.
>
> One of the aspects of the tunnel decision you
> might find curious is that the US appears to be
> relatively tunnel-shy in general compared with the
> ease with which they are used to solve problems in
> Europe and Asia particularly (look up the
> numbers). The little three mile Tysons Tunnel
> would have been simple compared with the
> mega-tunnels constructed or under construction
> elsewhere, but the successful opponents talked it
> down as some kind of engineering
> frontier-breaking, which it was not, with every
> risk and downer they could pile on.

Thanks RWBS For posting the YouTube on the Disney World monorail, but that has no relevance to putting an overhead railway through an area you are planning to turn into a "walkable" livable city. Everything has its place - the monorail is a fun addition to the Disney visit much enjoyed by my family many times. Thus the c. 80% of local residents polled who preferred the Tysons Tunnel solution were thinking of a quite different situation. Let's keep on topic.

During the height of the tunnel campaign reference was made to the vision of RT 123/RT 7 becoming boulevards, such as the Champs Élysées (noting that it carried a daily traffic flow similar to Tysons). Someone responded that last time they were there they did not see an overhead railway down the middle. Enough said.

@Have - so what is yr solution to this? Tear it down and rebuild it as a tunnel? o_0

> the vision of RT 123/RT 7 becoming boulevards, such as the Champs Élysées

I realize people like the tunnel option but let's not get carried away here...

For Themeeper: If I recall correctly the reference to boulevards was from the Tysons planning group, not the tunnelers. Yes it is an extreme vision, but that is the kind of long term perspective that grand schemes need to have in mind if they are to have great outcomes. Unfortunately the Dulles Rail planning was sorely handicapped by focusing almost solely on immediate construction costs, without any analysis or vision for the future. The same is true of the silly squabble over the Dulles station, which should be underground - a decision which will be regretted as the Airport expands further.

Forgive me if I am wrong on this, but wasn't there some concern about the geology of the area for the tunnel option?

Nope, geology is actually perfect for tunneling, clay under laid with bedrock (hence why Tysons sits a lot higher in elevation than much of Fairfax).

The issues for the cost were the massive utility conflicts due to the "black expedition" types that had been using it during the Cold War (see the telecomm tower still in place). Add into that 20 years of office park on steroid style design, ie office park sprawl with utilities strewn about chaotically, and you can see why the cost was going to be higher than standard bare earth tunneling.

Again. I dont think either side is wrong in this. The tunnel probably should have been done instead especially since Tysons is the reason why Fairfax's economy runs well and keeps us continuing to be more economically sound than the surrounding counties. But what is done is done, you can reroute silver line in the future if this whole thing is a success with a bypass line down 267. Then disconnect the silverline through Tysons incrementally to put it under ground and therefore create two systems in the future where you have a Tysons through metro line and a Tysons bypass line to DC.

That project would cost about 5-6 billion dollars in todays dollars, but it could be worth it if in 2030 we find that Tysons is making double the tax revenue it does today and that the land repurchase could pay for a 1 billion of that through air rights to developers.

In the short term, lets just deal with the fact that its above ground and start figuring out ways to make it look less like a monolithic concrete overpass and more in line with some aesthetically pleasing. Again the 2 story shitty office park behind it is a bigger eyesore than the line itself, lets fuckin demo that shit first and build some good not ghetto stuff first.

Good to see a serious and useful contribution from EngineerMcGee, although the late expletives seem gratuitous and spoil it.

It has never been explained why DULLES Rail had to divert through Tysons. With hindsight it would have been a better strategy to put a direct line straight to Dulles, and deal with the Tysons Loop (a real estate development project as many have said) in a separate scheme.

Sad to say Americans often object to international comparisons, seeming to rely on the jingoistic "American exceptionalism" as a kind of blanket justification enough. But here is the sign which greets you at Heathrow Airport, about the same distance from central London as Dulles from DC: TIME MACHINES 150KM/H TRAINS, 150 TIMEs A DAY.

Havesomevision Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good to see a serious and useful contribution from
> EngineerMcGee, although the late expletives seem
> gratuitous and spoil it.
>
> It has never been explained why DULLES Rail had to
> divert through Tysons. With hindsight it would
> have been a better strategy to put a direct line
> straight to Dulles, and deal with the Tysons Loop
> (a real estate development project as many have
> said) in a separate scheme.
>
> Sad to say Americans often object to international
> comparisons, seeming to rely on the jingoistic
> "American exceptionalism" as a kind of blanket
> justification enough. But here is the sign which
> greets you at Heathrow Airport, about the same
> distance from central London as Dulles from DC:
> TIME MACHINES 150KM/H TRAINS, 150 TIMEs A DAY.

Heathrow express is excellent - too pricy for commuters but great for travelers

18 UKP one-way, so about $27

The parallel, older. slower and more crowded Underground is about 5 UKP ($7.50) peak, 3 UKP ($4.50) off-peak is heavily used by commuters along the same corridor

Both co-exist nicely

EngineerMcGee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The issues for the cost were the massive utility
> conflicts due to the "black expedition"

The main reason it was built above ground was because Gerry Connolly put the kibosh on a tunnel, saying that taxes wouldn't be high enough if they did it that way. He wanted to raise taxes, and that's what he's deadset on doing.

hahahaha

WOw, just like a GOP supporter, completely uneducated about what occurred or anything about how the tax system works.

Grow the fuck up retard and go read a book or article or something.

I hear gerry connolly is the reason the Syria conflict continues, I hear he also causes all famine in the world, and is the sole reason why your mom has Hep C.

VOTEGOPAnalyzed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hahahaha
>
> WOw, just like a GOP supporter, completely
> uneducated about what occurred or anything about
> how the tax system works.
>
> Grow the fuck up retard and go read a book or
> article or something.
>
> I hear gerry connolly is the reason the Syria
> conflict continues, I hear he also causes all
> famine in the world, and is the sole reason why
> your mom has Hep C.

Gerry is at least responsible for the last two. Famine caused from all the food that blob gorges himself on and he probably gave votegop's mom Hep C. Sooooooo...

It’s Time to Stop Whining About Elevated Rail
July 14, 2012
By Tysons Engineer
http://thetysonscorner.com/its-time-to-stop-whining-about-elevated-rail/

Just wanna say that the above post wasnt from me... but I appreciate the free pub

One way of figuring out its not by me would be that the post includes my own byline :P

There we go, username set up just to clear up any future issues

The problem with that article, aside from being written by a complete retard who didn't send it to an editor before throwing the story up on the Internet, is that we all know Metro won't do anything to church up the appearance of the structure once it is complete. It'll be left in whatever condition it is in when the funding for construcition is tapped out and then it'll decay from there.

Ok... and that is empirically proven by which of the following, King Street Station improvements http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/print-edition/2012/04/06/changes-on-track-for-king-street-metro.html?page=all

How about the 2 dozen beautification projects that WMATA has done to plenty of stations in DC.

Glad you are the expert on the subject and willing to call someone who can do a little fact checking (unlike yourself) a retard. I'll make sure to call you up for grammar lessons real soon... you might want to check the half dozen errors you made yourself in the post above.

Feel free to post your red line whenever you want as you are clearly my intellectual superior. Church



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 10:12PM by Tysons Engineer.

"project in which inviting appearance should be a prime consideration"

To me, the "prime consideration" should be to get traffic moving so quickly that nobody has time to notice how ugly the damned thing is.

We can have the discussion about "beautification" projects some time after the system has reliably working escalators.

That station was built when I was born and it's just now getting a "face lift" because everybody says it is ugly and that's supposed to make your argument how exactly? Oh, but I said that it'll stay in that condition and nothing will be done to improve its awful appearance...true, but you'll probably be dead before WMATA improves upon the shit stain being built in Tysons currently so that will make me right in the end now won't it? The beautification projects are only due to the fact that the entire system has been allowed to decay for thirty years. Said decay has caused vital safety features to fail. Such failures have resulted in multiple deaths. And as for the other two dozen projects you've spoken of, every station I've been in looks the same, they all look like shit that was built in the 80's and I always feel like I'm catching something when I walk through them. You can keep sucking WMATA cock all you want, but until we start seeing actual improvements with each rate increase I doubt you'll see many of us drinking from your kool aid jug. Now get back to work raping Tysons corner and blogging on a site that wouldn't otherwise appear on Google without your link to it in this thread.

One of my early clip art pics from the Metro - "We Dare You to Ride" thread

Love the fact that you feel so educated about Metro even though you know NOTHING about it. Maybe you should try to learn more about it before taking such a one sided view of things.

The deaths that you speak of = 11 from accidents over the course of 40+ years. The system wasnt built in the 80s btw. I do agree that lack of oversight and complete defunding towards maintenance has been a serious safety issue.

PS I could care less what a person who is a self proclaimed expert and calls himself Gonads and Strife has to say. I doubt you are very important in real life, have some menial job, and find grammar to be the only thing that you can comprehend and therefore nitpick. Enjoy being an ignorant blowhard internet hot shot.

Oh and what does any of your diatribe even mean? My argument in my article, which I am sure was just too long for you to read at nearly 800 words, was that WMATA has nothing to do with the beautification. By incorporating the ground rights and air rights into redevelopment within the WMATA right of way private companies would have interest in creating a better pedestrian space.

But then again your little peanut brain has no idea what the fuck any of that means because you likely are some sort of paper pushing nerd who hasn't produced anything beneficial for society your entire pitiful existence.

Lastly, to the point about me being a WMATA stooge, maybe you should read other parts of the unfindable website, where I call out their budget and operations consistently. You can't just take the bad though, that is if you are an actual intellectual who has any reason, over a million cars are removed from roads in this area because of metro, it has spurred billions in investment from private companies in areas like Arlington, Tysons, and Bethesda, and the connection between Reagan/Dulles and Arlington and Tysons has already brought several new multi-national corporations to create offices in our area.

http://thetysonscorner.com/dear-wmata-and-my-bus-driver/

http://thetysonscorner.com/wmata-budget-policies-we-need-change/

http://thetysonscorner.com/time-to-tighten-up-the-wmata-budget/

For your reading pleasure... wow look at all of the 13 hits I just got from providing a link on the glorious Fairfax Underground!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 08:32AM by Tysons Engineer.

Tysons Engineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Love the fact that you feel so educated about
> Metro even though you know NOTHING about it. Maybe
> you should try to learn more about it before
> taking such a one sided view of things.
>
> The deaths that you speak of = 11 from accidents
> over the course of 40+ years. The system wasnt
> built in the 80s btw. I do agree that lack of
> oversight and complete defunding towards
> maintenance has been a serious safety issue.
>
> PS I could care less what a person who is a self
> proclaimed expert and calls himself Gonads and &
> Strife has to say. I doubt you are very important
> in real life, have some menial job, and find
> grammar to be the only thing that you can
> comprehend and therefore nitpick. Enjoy being an
> ignorant blowhard internet hot shot.


Get it right. My work here is done.