""These kids shouldn't be subject to numerous hurtful comments directed toward their school""

Those kids shouldn't have been sent out there to an adult meeting to tell lies that the adults who sent them know are lies. Those people shouldn't be allowed to use those kids like that. It's not fair to those kids or fair to the adults in the meetings who don't want to make kids feel bad by telling them the truth, their school is more dangerous than other schools, their school isn't the same as other schools, IB isn't as good as AP. Those poor kids have only been in school at South Lakes, they have no idea what other schools are like. The adults who sent them out there to those meetings knew that. The kids didn't. Shame on those grownups for using those innocent kids like that.

I've posted on this forum before and noticed the quiestons being asked are sometimes answered by people who would have no clue of the answer. If you want quiestons about student life, academics, or sports I'd be happy to answer. Not statics, or pie charts but REAL answers. I believe no one would be able to give better answers, as I am a junior at South Lakes currently.
And for those who love to comment on students posting on this forum, I hope you understand how frustrating it is exactly to have your school as the center of the biggest debate in your community. For some students it is incredibly difficult to deal with as it is unavoidable. We see this debate taking place in the districting meetings, the media and most unfortunate of all with the conversations between our friends who go to different schools. And even though this is difficult to deal with we still try to defend our school. If anything should be a display of our school pride I believe this would have to be it.
We spend our time writing letters, attending the district meetings, and posting on these forums to give our school the credit it deserves. Not because we are forced to, but because we choose to do so. So for those who love to jump on a student whose posts seem a bit gramatically incorrect, I'm not trying to excuse them of this, but I must say even with the grammar errors I'm still incredibly proud of the pride they display for our school. I don't believe any school has shown such a vast display of pride as we have in the past few months, but this is again my opinoun.

Again if you'd like real answers to real quiestons feel free to post them and I'd be happy to answer.

I must say I don't even know how to respond to this. I attended Carson a school that feeds into Oakton. I see very little difference in the violence level between South Lakes and Carson, and I say that honestly. The kids who attend those district meetings are my friends, and they're not forced to go to those meetings. They voluntarily by their choice decide to go. Not because they enjoy it or because that is how they enjoy spending their school nights, but to convince you that South Lakes is no where near what people believe it to be. They go to those meetings to give credit back to our school, to convince everyone of what exactly SL is, extroirdanary. And last but not least, yes I never attended Oakton, but they never attended SL either.

Dear Stephanie,

Please don't pay any attention to SueBS. She is an ignorant and small-minded person and she shows it with every post she writes. Keep up the good work and be proud of your school. You have that right.

Go Seahawks!

TO:

OneofaSeahawkNation

You sound like a good kid.

Few people in cosmopolitan areas dislike a diverse culture. I grew up in NYC and went to a school with people from all over the world.

Here's the problem. People today have been trained to hide the truth behind words or expressions that sound nice and positive. Political correctness and a blatant demeaning of traditional values have made people skeptical.

Public education is particularly guilty in this area. Parents are often fed the line... "school X is wonderful, very diverse, etc. Translation...."school X has alot of bad kids.

If you haven't already read Orwell's, 1984, it's worth a read. He describes how language can be manipulated to confuse and control a society. For example, the word, 'bad' is replaced by 'ungood'.

Keep working hard and good luck to you.

Muse wrote the following to a child,


"Please don't pay any attention to SueBS. She is an ignorant and small-minded person and she shows it with every post she writes."


You are the one sounding ignorant, not to mention crude. Sue is commenting on what's in the best interest of a child. Knowingly taking a child to a meeting where she will hear negative remarks about her school is cruel. Kids are not adults and this is an adult problem. If that is what you did, shame on you.

I'm still wondering why South Lakes has all those time-out rooms. Sorry, I just don't get it. Time-out rooms are for toddlers.

SueBonnetSue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes is only 16% Hispanic.
> Herndon, 19%.
> Lee, 23%.
> Mount Vernon, 23%
> Edison, 25%
> Annandale, 28%.
> Falls Church, 33%.
> Stuart, 41%
>
> All of them IB schools, aren't they? How come all
> the crummy schools get stuck with a crummy
> program? Which came first? Did IB make them
> crummy? Or were they crummy even before they got
> screwed with IB?

-----------------
NO! Herndon is an AP school, as fellow readers of this forum should know. Falls Church is also AP. Most people consider the HUGE Robinson to be at least a "fair-to-middling" school and it also is IB.

Marshall is the eighth of the eight IB schools in FCPS and it sets the example that proves South Lakes does not need to get any "bigger" to offer more electives. With only 1,325 students, Marshall would need to grow by 9% to be as big as South Lakes is now. Yet Marshall offers five more IB courses than South Lakes does, including IB SL Environmental Systems, IB SL History, IB HL and SL Business and Management, and IB SL Anthropology. Maybe South Lakes could learn something from its smaller sister-IB school.

""I want to visit South Lakes High School and see the scuff free halls and the sun-filled media center.""


I was waiting for Mr. Rogers to pop out singing about the beautiful neighborhood.....change into his sneakers and give us a tour.

Forum Reader,

Marshall has half the number of students on free and reduced lunch (15% to SL 33%), which probably translates to more students signing up for IB classes. If students don't sign up, classes are dropped.

Forum reader needs to speak at the next meeting. HE/She makes sense.

SB Crooks, I disagree. I think Birdlover and SueBonnetSue should speak. They are the most articulate people posting on this forum and would help your cause immensely. Please encourage them to speak. Please, please, please, please.

Muse guy,
Why are you so rude and nasty? Are you always so angry? Does your child go to South Lakes?

Thank you.

Is it so bad to think that kids shouldn't be thrown into adult meetings where adults know that tempers will run high because people don't have any control or any say in what will happen to them. It's not an example of how democracy is supposed to work.

If it is, then I guess I am bad. I don't want any child to think they need to defend their school against anyone, especially against adults who have good some good reasons for not wanting their child to go to South Lakes. It may not be about the school but about their investment in their property. Or it might be they don't like IB because their son isn't good in languages or their daughter wants to be an engineer. Nothing to do with the kids in the school at all. It's awful that these kids think people are saying something about them. It's not about these kids! Even worse that they feel they have to defend themselves. They do not. Some adult in their life, or at their school, should be looking out for them and tell them that. They don't have to defend themselves or their school. That's not a child's job to do.

It's terrible to put a child in that position against a roomful of angry adults. I would never allow my child to be in that kind of situation. It's not fair to them at all. Surely someone will look out for these children and tell them not to go to these meetings, let the adults figure it out. This isn't their battle. Just ignore it, and let the silly adults battle it out.

Muse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
>
> Marshall has half the number of students on free
> and reduced lunch (15% to SL 33%), which probably
> translates to more students signing up for IB
> classes. If students don't sign up, classes are
> dropped.

I love to have rational discussions with logical people.

The Commonwealth's FRM data dated May 2007 (available at http://www.pen.k12.va.us/VDOE/Finance/Nutrition/statistics.html) states Marshall is 17.07% FRM and South Lakes is 26.87% FRM. Two questions:
1) How did the level of poverty at South Lakes jump from a quarter to a third over this last summer?
2) If only "rich kids" [your implication, not mine] are likely to sign up for IB courses, then why is no one else outraged that the ten FCPS high schools with the highest FRM percentages (highest poverty levels) include seven of the eight IB schools? It is far easier to get college credit for a few AP courses than for a few IB courses. [Example: at least last time I checked, a "5" in AP US History and a 5 in BC Calculus earn 16 credits - more than a full semester - at UVA.] Yet the kids in the FCPS high schools with the highest FRM rates don't have a chance to earn these "free" college credits. That is just WRONG.

>>>If only "rich kids" [your implication, not mine] are likely to sign up for IB courses, then why is no one else outraged that the ten FCPS high schools with the highest FRM percentages (highest poverty levels) include seven of the eight IB schools? It is far easier to get college credit for a few AP courses than for a few IB courses. [Example: at least last time I checked, a "5" in AP US History and a 5 in BC Calculus earn 16 credits - more than a full semester - at UVA.] Yet the kids in the FCPS high schools with the highest FRM rates don't have a chance to earn these "free" college credits. That is just WRONG.<<<

WOW!!! Finally someone else gets it! That's what I've been telling staff since they stuck those schools with IB. But it wasn't supposed to help poor kids. According to the director of instruction at the time, IB was supposed to help stop 'white flight' in those schools. They thought that having a super special program for the little darlings, a separate but more equal program, would reassure white parents that their little dears would be in their own, separate, classes. That's the truth. I don't know if it worked or not but judging by the enrollments at those schools, I would have to say that it didn't work to stop whites from leaving. And IB certainly doesn't help poor kids, as you posted. As far as I can tell, it's a dismal failure. White parents of college bound kids don't want IB, and the poor who are stuck with it get screwed on college credits, kids who need the credits the most, if they are to ever finish college.

I too would love to know how South Lakes gained so many low income students in 11 weeks. Something is not right.

There is no reason why the school board can't allocate more money to South Lakes for more teachers and more courses. Then no one need move and the kids at South Lakes gets the same classes as everyone else, with half the number of students in their classes. Win-win.

If FCPS dropped IB and re-implemented AP for all the secondaries and high schools, the Board would find it much easier to redistrict neighborhoods into SL since there would be no valid objection.

I do find it interesting that the City of Falls Church's George Mason High School is very small and yet produces a huge percentage of IB Diploma earners.

George Mason has a very small percentage of kids on FRL. I think it is around 1-2%.

I would like to know from Forum Reader the number of FRL kids taking AP courses in AP schools. I think FR would find that the number is not all that significant. If FR finds otherwise, please let me know. I would like to have those numbers for future discussions.

Incidentally, AP Fan, how many diplomas did George Mason students earn last year. Last time I looked the number was not statistically significant.

BTW, we parents of SL students are looking into adding AP courses at the school. We did not choose IB, it was dumped on us by Loretta Webb, old Area III supervisor. We have made the best of the program (e.g., SL class of 2007 earned 45 IB Diplomas, which is a very significant number).

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no reason why the school board can't
> allocate more money to South Lakes for more
> teachers and more courses. Then no one need move
> and the kids at South Lakes gets the same classes
> as everyone else, with half the number of students
> in their classes. Win-win.

That is NOT a win-win. South Lakes got 42 pupil placements for IB while Marshall got 111 and those included kids from Langley, Madison, and even one from Herndon.

FCPS made the South Lakes problem and should fix it. Most of this goes back to preserving Herndon for Aldrin and Langley for all of Forestville. I resent having to pay more taxes to bail out this situation. The school building is surrounded by other attendance areas and the vast majority of those neighborhoods are not filled with ESL or FRPM students.

Anyone see some rather ugly racial overtones implicitly promulgated by the school board in this process being held concurrent with the Langley addition?

I also do not see the purpose in moving the Madison Island since: 1. it moves people east/west for school locations 2. isolated block that blends into the rest of the Madison area 3. in the future I can see Phil Nej..Eichner doing something with filling Falls Church after his Jackson process last year. If Madison gets any reductions it should be in that direction based on maps and the CIP 4. based on capacity and numbers of trailers a school at the South Lakes site is more needed for North west FXC than it is to relieve anything heading to Vienna.

FCPS should consider itself lucky that people at Oakton have been willing to put up with the distance - they could be screaming for building a new school.

Administrative change? Wrote:

>
> FCPS should consider itself lucky that people at
> Oakton have been willing to put up with the
> distance - they could be screaming for building a
> new school.

They don't need a new school. South Lakes is in their back yard.

Muse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Administrative change? Wrote:

> > Oakton ...don't need a new school. South Lakes is in
> their back yard.

Your right for some of them but for others it is not. That was a dig at the South County crew that can't make it to Lake Braddock and they wouldn't even be the furthest people from the school. I'm just gagging on the mega millions wasted on unused capacity in this county. Did anyone ever compute the costs?

Muse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... I would like to know from Forum Reader the number
> of FRL kids taking AP courses in AP schools. I
> think FR would find that the number is not all
> that significant. If FR finds otherwise, please
> let me know. I would like to have those numbers
> for future discussions. ...
>
> > BTW, we parents of SL students are looking into
> adding AP courses at the school. We did not
> choose IB, it was dumped on us by Loretta Webb,
> old Area III supervisor. We have made the best of
> the program (e.g., SL class of 2007 earned 45 IB
> Diplomas, which is a very significant number).

---------
You have access to the same data I have to the statistics on the FCPS web site. I am one of those who believes all children can learn, regardless of race or parents' economic status, and that is not the focus of my research. However, since you are focused on FRM, you seem to be the person who should make this Freedom of Information request to FCPS.

Maybe you can start local: How many of the 45 South Lakes IB grads were FRM? If there were several, then we can stop spending so much time discussing that factor. If NONE of them were, then maybe you should look at removing the programme.

For a variety of reasons which I can go into if anyone does not understand, IB and AP are not compatible. In FCPS only huge Robinson manages to support both IB and several AP courses (AP Bio, Comp. Sci, English Lit, Calculus AB, Government, Stat, and US History).

IB was "dumped on" South Lakes the same year it was installed at Woodson. The "FY 1999 Superintendent's Proposed Budget," page 179, contained this line: "Provides place holder funding to implement the IB program at Woodson and South Lakes High Schools in the amount of $120,000."

Woodson did not want it either, and they got rid of it. South Lakes has had several opportunities to get rid of IB as well.

In April 1999, the FCPS Superintendent notified all of its 24 high school principals that the College Board was initiating an AP Diploma Program, and gave all schools a month to request consideration for inclusion in either AP or IB Diploma Program.

Six months later: "Schools which are just beginning to study or implement the IB program may reassess their decision this year." [Sprague, Nancy, FCPS Assistant Superintendent for Instructional Services. "FCPS Responds to Questions About Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate Programs," Fairfax County Council of PTAs Newsletter, October 1999, page 6.]

On October 4, 1999, FCCPTA Education Committee met to discuss IB and AP. Among those in attendance were Marg Green and Kathy Anderson from South Lakes. Dr. Sprague stated at this meeting that South Lakes was being allowed to reconsider their decision.

Administrative change? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I also do not see the purpose in moving the
> Madison Island since: 1. it moves people east/west
> for school locations 2. isolated block that blends
> into the rest of the Madison area 3. in the future
> I can see Phil Nej..Eichner doing something with
> filling Falls Church after his Jackson process
> last year. If Madison gets any reductions it
> should be in that direction based on maps and the
> CIP 4. based on capacity and numbers of trailers a
> school at the South Lakes site is more needed for
> North west FXC than it is to relieve anything
> heading to Vienna.


I would like to suggest a possibility for our involvement. Three or four years ago hundreds of acres of land along Hunter Mill Road was bought at a premium by developers. These developers sought high density housing on this land that is currently zoned for 2 acre lots only. They fought hard to rezone afterall it was a $100 million dollar investment for their part of this land. If the zoning went unchanged, even if they built luxury homes and sold each of them for 2 million plus they would still realize a HUGE loss. So they fought the neighborhood with a little help from some politicians, also pushing the metro in Reston,slated to be located less than a mile from this land. They faced one big problem if they built a high rise and some town homes and filled them with families, where would they go to school? Madison, Thoreau and Wolftrap were close to capacity. The rezoning was shot down but they had the right to come back and try again in a couple of years. Spring 2008. So isnt it a coincidence that in the months before these developers have another opportunity to fight the zoning, the school board will announce whether our "island" of 37 kids will be redistricted to meet the needs of a school looking for 700? So whether we choose to believe it is all a coincidence or that the developers were involved doesnt really matter. Either way redistricting opens the door. Our kids get to go to a new school in a community they are unfamiliar with and we get some great new high rises and a strip mall.

Any parent who doesn't send their kid to privet school is not doing their best for them. If you have to get a second job or drive an older car it's worth it.
All this bitching about gangs and violence has never been an issue at any of the northern Virginia high schools like PVI, Bishop Ireton, O'Connell. Face
it if you really care about your kids education send them to a true college preparatory school like the above mentioned. You don't have to be catholic they welcome all faiths. I have sent all nine of my kids to privet schools by sacrificing my needs like a new car, cable television, cell phones, gym memberships, beauty treatments, starbucks and mall shopping just to mention a few, and it's all worth it a hundred times over.

I'm sure you have all seen this on WTOP. This makes the most sense of any of this mess. Is our school board preparing any proposals to attract this type of program, not only to South Lakes, but any where in Fairfax??

Va. to Open Six Schools Emphasizing Science, Technology
November 19, 2007 - 6:43am

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - Gov. Timothy M. Kaine expects to open up to six Governor's Career and Technical Academies by next fall, with the assistance of a $500,000 grant awarded to the state this summer from the National Governors Association Center for Best Practices.

School districts and community colleges are vying for the academies, which will utilize a challenging curriculum model emphasizing science, technology, engineering and math.

The academies will be designed to produce graduates ready to start work in technical fields immediately after high school.

Kaine spokesman Gordon Hickey says Kaine decided to use the grant money for these academies after discussions with business leaders who see a need for a more skilled work force.

"What (Kaine) wants to do is make career and technical education a first-class education and remove any negative connotation that goes with being the graduate of a technical school," Hickey said. "The governor knows we need to do the same to prepare our work force that we do our college-bound students."

Up to six grants for $120,000 would be awarded as seed money for the academies; applicants must address how partnerships would sustain an academy. Grant money cannot be used for equipment and facility costs.

Overall, 13 school systems, seven community colleges, and two regional career and technical centers have submitted proposals, according to the governor's office.

Those include proposals from Henrico and Chesterfield county school systems.

Chesterfield's proposal calls for an academy at L.C. Bird High School. There's already a pre-engineering specialty center and a planned expansion there. Students would be prepared for careers such as aeronautical or biochemistry technicians, said schools spokeswoman Debra Q. Marlow.

Henrico would unite High Tech Academy, which allows students to earn up to 28 credits with Virginia Commonwealth University's School of Engineering, and the school system's engineering specialty center.

The focus would be on introducing younger students to careers in science, math, engineering and technology, said Mac R. Beaton, director of career and technical education for Henrico schools. Henrico would work in partnership with VCU, memory-chip maker Qimonda and the Department of Labor and Industry, Beaton said.

The Virginia Department of Education will administer the academies, which will have to meet criteria established by the Virginia Board of Education.

The board is expected to approve the criteria this month.

___

Information from: Richmond Times-Dispatch

Wow, Forum Reader, you have included a lot of information. A welcome change from all the name calling. I'm not sure how all this will impact the current situation, but it is interesting. I'll bet a lot of it is news to SL parents, many of whom seem to care a lot about their school but may have not been aware of the history of the IB program there. This is the kind of thing that worries me a little. I just worry that my 8th grader will come into a school that isn't as organized as Oakton. Just compare the websites of the schools, including all the links. That may seem like a small issue, but combined with what I've heard of the history of poor administration, all the good teachers leaving, etc., it just doesn't inspire confidence. I know that there are a lot of good things about SL, but for some/many of us who have kids at other high schools or slated to go to other high schools, moving to SL doesn't seem universally desirable yet. I think this kind of information about the IB program/programme just adds to our anxiety about what we'd be getting into. The more information that sees the light of day the better, including what's good about SL.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2007 11:44AM by foxmill/carson/oakton parent.

Can I make a request? I try to keep up with this thread, but with 2600+ posts and growing it is really difficult to make sense of what is going on here. How many issues are really being discussed since there seems to be multiple ideas being argued.

Would it be possible for someone to start a new topic which summarizes the debate and would allow the rest of us to understand the gist of the conversation?

do the best for your kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any parent who doesn't send their kid to privet
> school is not doing their best for them. .... Face
> it if you really care about your kids education
> send them to a true college preparatory school
> like the above mentioned. ....

Of course we all want what is best for our children, so please expand upon your idea. On 30 September of this year 53,626 students were enrolled in FCPS high schools. Where are you suggesting we send them?

Point of clarification: The IB program was not forced on South Lakes. There were at least two years of discussion and planning that included parents, administrators, members of the business community, and teachers. At that time, there was ample opportunity for involvement and input. One reason IB was chosen was because it included the fairly new (internationally) Middle Years IB program or MYIB that would draw Langston Hughes and South Lakes together. When the adjacent campuses were built, they were supposed to function nearly like a secondary school, but never really did. The IB and MYIB programs would help "articulate" the two schools -- and, in fact, did. I was involved with this whole process.

Example: The math curricula were totally different in Langston Hughes vs. South Lakes and kids were not properly prepared for the high school math courses. Hughes is the only middle school that feeds into SLHS, so there was a real need to create a "model campus" between the two. After MYIB/IB was put in place, teachers from both schools began meeting together and these disconnects began to be rectified. Except for Robinson, I'm not aware of any other high school that works this closely with its feeder middle school. IB and MYIB has worked.

BTW, my understanding is the AP diploma program is not offered by the College Board to US students attending US Colleges: "The APID is available to students attending secondary schools outside the United States and to U.S. resident students applying to universities outside the country. The APID is not a substitute for a high school diploma, but rather provides additional certification of outstanding academic excellence." (from the College Board website)

One shouldn't confuse taking AP or IB courses (which are similarly rigorous) with getting a diploma or certificate in IB. You can get a full IB diploma by taking a course called "Theory of Knowledge" (epistemology), writing an in-depth essay on a topic of your choice, and completing 150 CAS hours (creativity, activity, service). These are wonderful components of IB. You can get a certificate by taking IB courses without the latter three activities. Or you can take an IB course and then the exam and earn college credit, just like with AP.

One of the issues at South Lakes is that they need some more non-core courses, like business and psychology, so AP is being considered to supplement the IB program. In addition, they need to be able to offer more high-level courses, like HL Physics.

On the issue of what schools offer, I have yet, in 13 years of FCPS involvement as a parent, to see a school academic program where all the courses offered are actually provided. In every single school, that depends entirely on how many kids sign up for them. My understanding is that there needs to be a minimum of 10 kids committed to a class before a teacher is even considered for it. Discussion of what's offered is not helpful. It's about what's actually provided.

any truth that Westfield did not have enough girls tryout for the 9th grade basketball team? That the first game (scrimmage) has been cancelled?

Forum Reader,
Why won't you provide the number of FRL students taking AP classes. I think it is totally relevant to your argument, unless your name is Jean or Anne. If that's the case, then I understand why you don't want to provide the info and why you are so biased against IB.

BTW, just because the County gave school administrators (most of whom are no longer at SL) a choice, does not mean that the information was disseminated to the parents.

Just for the record, my recollection is that IB was implemented at Woodson sooner that it was at SL, perhaps by a year or two. IB didn't start at SL until 2001 and the first graduating class of IB students was 2004.

If the SB was trying to dump IB on low performing schools, as many here have tried to say, then why was it 'dumped' at Woodson? Also for the record, I personally knew many parents at Woodson who were disappointed when IB was dropped.

Clarifier,

I was also involved with the model campus committee, and the purpose of the committee was not to discuss IB implementation, but rather how to marry LH and SL into one campus. When we presented our findings to the whole model campus committee, IB was not a recommendation. It was announced at the presentation meeting that our school was to become an IB school. Many of us on the committee were quite surprised, as the focus of the committee was not to discuss the implementation of IB.

nappy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Va. to Open Six Schools Emphasizing Science,
> Technology
> November 19, 2007 - 6:43am
>
>
Please be aware that one of the most difficult issues facing our state is how to bring prosperity to struggling counties. These counties, many in the SW of the state, have few job prospects and a low tax base for their school systems. One of the challenges this administration and the Senate and House face is how to bring economic prosperity and education to these communities without harming the environment or going into debt. This is a classic rural-vs.-urban issue.

Tim Kaine put together an education task force when he first became governor. The aim was to identify what "worked" in various school systems statewide and see what could be replicated elsewhere where the need was greatest. (Elizabeth Lodal, former principal of TJ, left there to be on the task force). Thus, these schools are NEEDED in other parts of the state. We in Fairfax are extraordinarily fortunate to have one of the top school systems in the nation if not the world -- ALL our schools are in the top 5% (including Oakton, South Lakes, Chantilly, Westfield, and Madison). So we do need to take the bigger picture into account when we discuss improvements to our system.

Bear in mind, BTW, that TJ is a governor's school, enacted by the VA General Assembly, supported by the Virginia Department of Education, and administered by Fairfax County. There are 18 academic-year governor's schools in Virginia. It takes a lot of effort to create one: http://www.pen.k12.va.us/VDOE/Instruction/Govschools/. Furthermore, most of these schools are specialized and do not meet the general education needs of a community. It simply isn't feasible to "create" one out of South Lakes. However, there have been many movements in the county to create a second version of TJ, in the north part of the county, but there would be 50+ pages of threads on that proposal as well, believe me!

Muse: Regarding IB, yes, it was offered toward the end of the initial model campus discussions, but it was in the works for quite awhile before then. I will admit that the IB discussion could have been more inclusive or at least disseminated.I was aware of it and brought it to the attention of the members of the model campus committee I was on. I know a lot of teachers and maybe parents resisted it when it was begun, some heartily. I think that was out of not knowing the program well, because it was fairly new to the county, and because the schools had some communications issues leading up to this so there was skepticism that something like this could work. I'd say those were the reasons SOME people felt it was "forced" on the schools. However, I would argue that there is always a population of parents/teachers/administrators who feel something "new" is being forced, just because it's new, which is understandable. A great many people supported it, though. I don't think you're arguing to get rid of it now, are you? If not, let's see how we can improve it, just as any school would want to improve AP offerings and the numbers of kids involved successfully in them.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Muse: Regarding IB, yes, it was offered toward the
> end of the initial model campus discussions, but
> it was in the works for quite awhile before then.
> I will admit that the IB discussion could have
> been more inclusive or at least disseminated.I was
> aware of it and brought it to the attention of the
> members of the model campus committee I was on. I
> know a lot of teachers and maybe parents resisted
> it when it was begun, some heartily. I think that
> was out of not knowing the program well, because
> it was fairly new to the county, and because the
> schools had some communications issues leading up
> to this so there was skepticism that something
> like this could work. I'd say those were the
> reasons SOME people felt it was "forced" on the
> schools. However, I would argue that there is
> always a population of
> parents/teachers/administrators who feel something
> "new" is being forced, just because it's new,
> which is understandable. A great many people
> supported it, though. I don't think you're arguing
> to get rid of it now, are you? If not, let's see
> how we can improve it, just as any school would
> want to improve AP offerings and the numbers of
> kids involved successfully in them.

Dear Clarifier, I am absolutely not advocating getting rid of the program, but just have a different recollection as to how it was presented at South Lakes. As far as I am concerned now, that is water under the bridge, as for the most part the school has embraced the program and many students have benefited from it. Those who argue that it is not as good for low income students as AP have yet to present any evidence to back up that claim, even though I have asked for it.

Keep up the good work.

Bruce Butler, SLHS principal, has put together a terrific Powerpoint presentation about "what's good about South Lakes." Most of it is stuff that's happened in the last year or so. I know he would be glad to present it to any school willing to see, just as he did to Floris last week. Students come along and you can ask them - and him - questions. Anyone who genuinely is concerned about moving their kids from one school to another should take the time to visit the school, or see this presentation. Bruce said he is making himselve as available as possible for this. In addition, go ahead and email Anne Stowe, IB coordinator at SLHS, with questions about the program.

I felt the same way as the writing parent about Oakton and Chantilly when I was deciding whether to pupil-place my kids. I visited all three schools and interviewed staff. They were ALL excellent and had wonderful advantages.

I wonder why there isn't a discussion in this thread about kids moving from, say, Chantilly to Oakton, or Westfield to Chantilly or Herndon, all distinct possibilties? Is there no concern there? Could a Chantilly parent speak with confidence about the pros and cons of Oakton, say? Those schools might all have AP, but they are very different "flavors."

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I wonder why there isn't a discussion in this
> thread about kids moving from, say, Chantilly to
> Oakton, or Westfield to Chantilly or Herndon, all
> distinct possibilties? Is there no concern there?
> Could a Chantilly parent speak with confidence
> about the pros and cons of Oakton, say? Those
> schools might all have AP, but they are very
> different "flavors."


Yes, I have concern about moving from Chantilly to Oakton. It has nothing to do with the quality of the school but more to do with the flawed process that is being followed as well as the proximity of Franklin Glen to Oakton (its much farther than Chantilly, in addition to other community based concerns. It seems crazy we might have to move that far, but I can tell you that our area is concerned.

I would like to see more due process followed. The meeting at Chantilly was awful and unproductive. I would have more confidence in a true study which takes the time to fully document "must-fix" problems and which explore all potential alternatives and the pros, cons and costs associated. I have zero faith in the "study" that was presented at Chantilly on Nov 12. This should be more accurately termed an implementation. I have no problem with boundary changes as long as due process is followed and is necessary as a last resort to address "must fix" problems. The issue I have is that I don't see this as a must-fix problem based on what has been presented by the School Board. It may well be, but where is the drill-down of information?

If the process doesn't inspire confidence this time, I won't be able to trust it in the future either.

>>>many parents at Woodson who were disappointed when IB was dropped.<<<

You know BOTH of the them? The two loony liberals at Woodson who wanted the IB program? Too bad that SL didn't have the good sense that people at Woodson had. IB is just one more thing that contributes to the low enrollment numbers at South Lakes.

It looks like they don't care what the public wants since they are refusing to do either of things that public wanted. It seems that the public suggestions were not helpful to the 'process


>>>"The one fairly common issue was the displeasure with the scope of the study," said Dean Tistadt, chief operating officer of facilities and transportation services for the county, in a telephone interview Wednesday. Except for the island, Madison High School is not included in the study, and Langley High School also is excluded.
Tistadt said the school board determined which schools would be included in the study, and he thought the selections were appropriate. Continuing to question why other schools are not included, he said, does not help in the overall process."<<<

They don't like the public's second suggestion either:
>>>Other comments during the small group discussions included the implementation of a magnet-style program at South Lakes, according to Elizabeth Gibson, Herndon's PTSA boundary committee chairman. This, she said, would allow students to transfer voluntarily to the school. But school officials maintain a magnet program is not a viable idea because there is not enough room at South Lakes to operate two high school programs in the same building. Gibson said people also expressed concerns about transportation time and costs, for both school buses and private vehicles.<<<
http://www.observernews.com/stories/current/news/111607/boundaries.shtml

Of course that's total BS, 700 spaces is more than enough for a good magnet program. It's space for 150 students per grade! A magnet could easily be done, if our school board wanted to. They don't.

Why do they bother to ask the public for their opinions if they are going to totally ignore any opinions that don't agree with what the school board has already decided to do? Why don't they just announce which schools Stu Gibson and Kathy Smith have chosen to be forced to go to South Lakes? These meetings are designed to force the public into 'choosing' whatever Kathy and Stu have already chosen. Kudos to the public for refusing to play their game and do their dirty work for them. Make them announce who will be forced to go there!

gator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clarifier Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
The issue I have is that I don't see
> this as a must-fix problem based on what has been
> presented by the School Board. It may well be,
> but where is the drill-down of information?
>

There is a great deal of information about this from the School Board/Facilities perspective on the FCPS website. It takes time and patience to read through it all, but the background information is there. As a SL advocate, I found the presentation itself somewhat weak, but that's not to say the strong arguments aren't there. Many of us have been educating ourselves for several months, so we have a lot of background knowledge. And for several years we've known we'd have 700 slots after renovations and that we would want to fill them. We would have jettisoned all the stuff about questionable academic classes, and about "8,000" people filling stadium seats (really, not a bad thing), etc. We would have emphasized parity for SL and opportunity for kids in overcrowded schools. Not to mention effective use of taxpayer-funded facilities. Basically the four points the board is tasked with considering.

What happens to South Lakes if Bruce Butler moves to another school, or the administration, within the next couple of years?

If everyone knew for years that there would be 700 empty seats, why weren't any alternatives studied? Why were Langley and Madison guaranteed to be held harmless? Why did Langley get a the money for an addition for 600 students when everyone knew that South Lakes would soon have 700 empty seats?

And they want us to think they are concerned about saving the taxpayers money? Hahahahahaha................

gator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clarifier Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I wonder why there isn't a discussion in this
> > thread about kids moving from, say, Chantilly
> to
> > Oakton, or Westfield to Chantilly or Herndon,
> all
> > distinct possibilties? Is there no concern
> there?
> > Could a Chantilly parent speak with confidence
> > about the pros and cons of Oakton, say? Those
> > schools might all have AP, but they are very
> > different "flavors."
>
>
> Yes, I have concern about moving from Chantilly to
> Oakton. It has nothing to do with the quality of
> the school but more to do with the flawed process
> that is being followed as well as the proximity of
> Franklin Glen to Oakton (its much farther than
> Chantilly, in addition to other community based
> concerns. It seems crazy we might have to move
> that far, but I can tell you that our area is
> concerned.
>
> I would like to see more due process followed.
> The meeting at Chantilly was awful and
> unproductive. I would have more confidence in a
> true study which takes the time to fully document
> "must-fix" problems and which explore all
> potential alternatives and the pros, cons and
> costs associated. I have zero faith in the
> "study" that was presented at Chantilly on Nov 12.
> This should be more accurately termed an
> implementation. I have no problem with boundary
> changes as long as due process is followed and is
> necessary as a last resort to address "must fix"
> problems. The issue I have is that I don't see
> this as a must-fix problem based on what has been
> presented by the School Board. It may well be,
> but where is the drill-down of information?
>
> If the process doesn't inspire confidence this
> time, I won't be able to trust it in the future
> either.


I totally agree with Gator as to the presentation at Chantilly on the 12th of November. Embarassing for the School Board and Staff.


As a current CHS parent, I can only say that we are very happy with the education our children are receiving at Chantilly. As a family, we have become very involved with the programs and sports our children are interested in. If the school board can not come up with a more compelling argument other than the over-crowding of the Chantilly-Westfield game and given the fact that the school's population will be declining. Our lives should not be disrupted, simply to repopulate another school.

Some of our neighorhoods are less than 3 or 4 miles from Chantilly, what is the cost to us taxpayers to start busing children even further. Our buses come at around 6:45, if we are forced to move to a different HS, the buses would come much earlier - 6:15 AM. Our students would also return home 30 minutes later. They would be losing precious time - spent on things that matter - family, homework, etc.

I know many families already face this issue - we choose not to. That is why we live where we live.

Muse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
> Why won't you provide the number of FRL students
> taking AP classes. I think it is totally relevant
> to your argument, unless your name is Jean or
> Anne. If that's the case, then I understand why
> you don't want to provide the info and why you are
> so biased against IB.
>
> BTW, just because the County gave school
> administrators (most of whom are no longer at SL)
> a choice, does not mean that the information was
> disseminated to the parents.
>
> Just for the record, my recollection is that IB
> was implemented at Woodson sooner that it was at
> SL, perhaps by a year or two. IB didn't start at
> SL until 2001 and the first graduating class of IB
> students was 2004.
>
> If the SB was trying to dump IB on low performing
> schools, as many here have tried to say, then why
> was it 'dumped' at Woodson? Also for the record,
> I personally knew many parents at Woodson who were
> disappointed when IB was dropped.
>
> Clarifier,
>
> I was also involved with the model campus
> committee, and the purpose of the committee was
> not to discuss IB implementation, but rather how
> to marry LH and SL into one campus. When we
> presented our findings to the whole model campus
> committee, IB was not a recommendation. It was
> announced at the presentation meeting that our
> school was to become an IB school. Many of us on
> the committee were quite surprised, as the focus
> of the committee was not to discuss the
> implementation of IB.
----
You ask why I don’t provide the number of FRM students taking AP classes. I would be happy to study whatever data you can point me to on the number of FRM students taking AP classes, but I do not work for the school system and do not know how to access these data.

What is the argument you think these data pertain to? Let me repeat myself: “You have access to the same data I have to the statistics on the FCPS web site. I am one of those who believes all children can learn, regardless of race or parents' economic status, and that is not the focus of my research. However, since you are focused on FRM, you seem to be the person who should make this Freedom of Information request to FCPS.” And who are Jean and Anne? Do they have these privacy-protected student data?

Are you saying South Lakes parents were NOT given a choice between AP and IP? On October 4th, 1999 the FCCPTA Education Committee met to discuss IB and AP. Among those in attendance were Marg Green and Kathy Anderson from South Lakes. Dr. Sprague specifically stated at this meeting that South Lakes was being allowed to reconsider its decision to go IB. Were Marg Green and Kathy Anderson parents or staff?

Your recollection is wrong; IB arrived at South Lakes and Woodson the same year. The "FY 1999 Superintendent's Proposed Budget," page 179, contained this line: "Provides place holder funding to implement the IB program at Woodson and South Lakes High Schools in the amount of $120,000." The meeting I just referred to was held the same academic quarter that Woodson was making its decision.

Woodson did carefully analyze both IB and AP and became very familiar with the pros and cons of both programs. I downloaded their results when they were posted eight years ago. Their records indicated there were many more AP proponents, but of course at least a couple pro-IB parents, teachers, and students were disappointed when they lost the decision. Some teachers who wanted to continue teaching IB might have transferred to an IB school, but I am not familiar enough with their situation to know. Those Woodson families who want the IB programme for their children can pupil place them into Annandale or Robinson.

Why do you think I am “biased against IB”? [If you have been studying the IB Theory of Knowledge you know we cannot have a rational discussion if you impugn the motives of others.] IB is GREAT for those IB Diploma Candidates who are strong in the humanities and especially in foreign language and who plan to further their education in a school overseas. Like Woodson, Oakton, Westfield, and all the other AP schools decided to keep AP, but if individual students want IB, they can pupil place into South Lakes or another IB school. Several posters on this thread have suggested making South Lakes more of a magnet to attract such students, but they are rather rudely attacked.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If everyone knew for years that there would be 700
> empty seats, why weren't any alternatives studied?
> Why were Langley and Madison guaranteed to be
> held harmless? Why did Langley get a the money
> for an addition for 600 students when everyone
> knew that South Lakes would soon have 700 empty
> seats?
>
> And they want us to think they are concerned about
> saving the taxpayers money?
> Hahahahahaha................

Like I've said way back on this post, there are neighborhoods that have no rational reason being in the Langley boundary. Besides the new addition at Langley, Colvin Run Elementary was built in order to accommodate that ridiculous boundary. Take a look at the boundary map. Langley's boundary encompasses about 20 percent of the county.

Forum Reader,

You are the one who brought up that in your opinion IB is not as good for low-income students as AP, yet you have offered no evidence regarding the number of low income kids taking advantage of AP classes. All I did was ask you to back up your claim with facts. Your quote is below:

> [Example: at least last time I checked, a "5" in AP US History and a 5 in BC Calculus earn 16 credits - more than a full semester - at UVA.] Yet the kids in the FCPS high schools with the highest FRM rates don't >have a chance to earn these "free" college credits. That is just WRONG.

The first SL class graduating with IB was in 2004, so please inform us how it is that the program[me] was implemented in 1999. Just because there was a placeholder in the budget does not mean that the program was implemented at the same time. It was implemented the same year that Really Rodriquez became principal, which was 2001.

Just what are your motives? I think we should know them so we don't incorrectly impugn your posts.

Muse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SB Crooks, I disagree. I think Birdlover and
> SueBonnetSue should speak. They are the most
> articulate people posting on this forum and would
> help your cause immensely. Please encourage them
> to speak. Please, please, please, please.


Good idea. I agree with SueBonnetSue. And BirdLover is very funny. That picture of the monkeys did me in. Maybe the two of them could be in charge of the slide show.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I wonder why there isn't a discussion in this
> thread about kids moving from, say, Chantilly to
> Oakton, or Westfield to Chantilly or Herndon, all
> distinct possibilties? Is there no concern there?
> Could a Chantilly parent speak with confidence
> about the pros and cons of Oakton, say? Those
> schools might all have AP, but they are very
> different "flavors."


There is a lot of concern about all the domino moves to be made with this redistricting effort. However, this thread only concentrates on South Lakes. It seems that is all anyone really cares about here. I will tell you, though, that no one really wants to leave their school. We, for example, do not want to leave Chantilly for Oakton.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Muse Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader,
> > Why won't you provide the number of FRL
> students
> > taking AP classes. I think it is totally
> relevant
> > to your argument, unless your name is Jean or
> > Anne. If that's the case, then I understand
> why
> > you don't want to provide the info and why you
> are
> > so biased against IB.
> >
> > BTW, just because the County gave school
> > administrators (most of whom are no longer at
> SL)
> > a choice, does not mean that the information
> was
> > disseminated to the parents.
> >
> > Just for the record, my recollection is that IB
> > was implemented at Woodson sooner that it was
> at
> > SL, perhaps by a year or two. IB didn't start
> at
> > SL until 2001 and the first graduating class of
> IB
> > students was 2004.
> >
> > If the SB was trying to dump IB on low
> performing
> > schools, as many here have tried to say, then
> why
> > was it 'dumped' at Woodson? Also for the
> record,
> > I personally knew many parents at Woodson who
> were
> > disappointed when IB was dropped.
> >
> > Clarifier,
> >
> > I was also involved with the model campus
> > committee, and the purpose of the committee was
> > not to discuss IB implementation, but rather
> how
> > to marry LH and SL into one campus. When we
> > presented our findings to the whole model
> campus
> > committee, IB was not a recommendation. It was
> > announced at the presentation meeting that our
> > school was to become an IB school. Many of us
> on
> > the committee were quite surprised, as the
> focus
> > of the committee was not to discuss the
> > implementation of IB.
> ----
> You ask why I don’t provide the number of FRM
> students taking AP classes. I would be happy to
> study whatever data you can point me to on the
> number of FRM students taking AP classes, but I do
> not work for the school system and do not know how
> to access these data.
>
> What is the argument you think these data pertain
> to? Let me repeat myself: “You have access to the
> same data I have to the statistics on the FCPS web
> site. I am one of those who believes all children
> can learn, regardless of race or parents' economic
> status, and that is not the focus of my research.
> However, since you are focused on FRM, you seem to
> be the person who should make this Freedom of
> Information request to FCPS.” And who are Jean and
> Anne? Do they have these privacy-protected student
> data?
>
> Are you saying South Lakes parents were NOT given
> a choice between AP and IP? On October 4th, 1999
> the FCCPTA Education Committee met to discuss IB
> and AP. Among those in attendance were Marg Green
> and Kathy Anderson from South Lakes. Dr. Sprague
> specifically stated at this meeting that South
> Lakes was being allowed to reconsider its decision
> to go IB. Were Marg Green and Kathy Anderson
> parents or staff?
>
> Your recollection is wrong; IB arrived at South
> Lakes and Woodson the same year. The "FY 1999
> Superintendent's Proposed Budget," page 179,
> contained this line: "Provides place holder
> funding to implement the IB program at Woodson and
> South Lakes High Schools in the amount of
> $120,000." The meeting I just referred to was held
> the same academic quarter that Woodson was making
> its decision.
>
> Woodson did carefully analyze both IB and AP and
> became very familiar with the pros and cons of
> both programs. I downloaded their results when
> they were posted eight years ago. Their records
> indicated there were many more AP proponents, but
> of course at least a couple pro-IB parents,
> teachers, and students were disappointed when they
> lost the decision. Some teachers who wanted to
> continue teaching IB might have transferred to an
> IB school, but I am not familiar enough with their
> situation to know. Those Woodson families who want
> the IB programme for their children can pupil
> place them into Annandale or Robinson.
>
> Why do you think I am “biased against IB”? IB is
> GREAT for those IB Diploma Candidates who are
> strong in the humanities and especially in foreign
> language and who plan to further their education
> in a school overseas. Like Woodson, Oakton,
> Westfield, and all the other AP schools decided to
> keep AP, but if individual students want IB, they
> can pupil place into South Lakes or another IB
> school. Several posters on this thread have
> suggested making South Lakes more of a magnet to
> attract such students, but they are rather rudely
> attacked.


Forum Reader:

There was an extensive back-and-forth on the AP/IB issue several weeks ago, and that is worth all interested persons to review.

But you are incorrect in suggesting that that the IB is for "those IB Diploma Candidates who are strong in the humanities and especially in foreign language and who plan to further their education in a school overseas."

This erroneously suggests that

(i) IB is only for Diploma candidates (in fact, many students take one or several IB courses for challenge, extra GPA, and possible college credit, similar to AP, without seeking the Diploma); and

(ii) it is only for kids who study overseas (I know of many SLHS grads who attend top tier, middle-tier, etc. colleges, who have not studied overseas but attest to how well IB classes prepared them for undergraduate study). I have discussed with parents from other FCPS schools with IB and they say the same thing.

To echo earlier points, the emphasis should not be AP v. IB, and it should include a valid, undistorted view of IB programs.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Muse Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------


<>
> >
> > Clarifier,
> >
> > I was also involved with the model campus
> > committee, and the purpose of the committee was
> > not to discuss IB implementation, but rather
> how
> > to marry LH and SL into one campus. When we
> > presented our findings to the whole model
> campus
> > committee, IB was not a recommendation. It was
> > announced at the presentation meeting that our
> > school was to become an IB school. Many of us
> on
> > the committee were quite surprised, as the
> focus
> > of the committee was not to discuss the
> > implementation of IB.

Muse, Clarifier, and Forum Reader,

That IB got forced on SLHS and Langston Hughes would not surprise me.

Even the current teachers at Langston Hughes do their best to simply pay "lip service" to the IB Middle Years Program, as it continues to get shoved down their throats. When I was asked by Bruce Butler to come in to discuss in person my child's pupil placement application to move to Madison for AP studies vs. matriculating at SLHS and doing the IB program (GT student), I noted that, not only was my child not cut out for IB (stronger interest and stronger aptitude in science/math than in Humanities), but that I did not see ANY BENEFIT WHATSOEVER to having my child pursue advanced work in IB.

He seemed genuinely surprised at my comments about how the teachers at Langston Hughes would teach the curriculum and then add on some sort of "make work" project to meet whatever the IB MYP guidelines required. I thought possibly things might change for the better as my second child came through.

Two years later, with my second child in 8th grade at Langston Hughes (also GT program), nothing has changed, with the exception of the person sitting in the office of the IB MYP coordinator (who, when I told my children had been appointed to that position, both said that he would do nothing to advance IB in the eyes of 7th and 8th graders, and they were right).

My 8th grader will be going to an FCPS school that offers AP coursework, or will be going to a private school, unless, in the next 2 or 3 months, I see concrete evidence of a reinstitution of an AP diploma program, or a definite commitment to offering AP science and math courses, at SLHS.

<>


This is Forum Reader, I think:

> Why do you think I am “biased against IB”? IB is
> GREAT for those IB Diploma Candidates who are
> strong in the humanities and especially in foreign
> language and who plan to further their education
> in a school overseas.

I agree, however, my two children do not fit this mold, and, as much as I would have liked to have them stay with established friends from Langston Hughes (I do not have a problem with the diversity of culture at SLHS), they will not be well-served or prepared for their future by doing their advanced coursework in an IB program. AP is a much, much, better fit.

chch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
there is a lot of concern about all the domino
> moves to be made with this redistricting effort.
> However, this thread only concentrates on South
> Lakes. It seems that is all anyone really cares
> about here. I will tell you, though, that no one
> really wants to leave their school. We, for
> example, do not want to leave Chantilly for
> Oakton.

chch...Yes, if this redistricting occurs, many, many schools and thousands of children will be affected.

There appears to be only one group strongly advocating a change..(other than the School Board)...and, that group is the South Lakes PTSA and its active parents.

On the front page of the South Lakes November newsletter, the PTSA, as well as the SL's Principal, advocate for redistricting. Certainly, SL parents have been incredibly active here at this site. They have everything to gain. Improve their school's image...maybe offer a few extremely advanced courses to a few kids ath their school but the big one is...a huge gain in their real estate value. It will be on our backs...our real estate value will take a five year dive. Thanks alot South Lakes.


Of all the schools affected, South Lakes is the only one strongly supporting the effort.

Obviously, there should be a different solution...if, in fact, there really is a problem in the first place.

VaDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Obviously, there should be a different
> solution...if, in fact, there really is a problem
> in the first place.


Third smallest enrollment in the county - 1400 in a school with 2050 capacity - sounds like a problem when nearby schools have 2800 and 3100. Underenrollment is THE issue...

.

edit by Cary: Offensive picture removed. The user was banned for this post.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2007 06:16AM by Cary.

Posted by: SLParent

"Why do any of you care if a student is on Free or Reduced lunch? It drives me crazy that this issue is a common theme..........

They talk the same, they play sports the same and they behave the same. Just because someone doesn't come from a certain income family home does not make them a less desirable student."

-----------


Your school has 1/3 of its enrollment on free-lunch, a figure which will decline when my children are bused in. Would you sound so lofty if the redistricting plan would, instead, cause an increase in that percentage to say 50% or 60% ?

After all, you have declared that low income kids are no less desirable.

Anybody (nonbiased) have REAL data on property values -- comparables? I notice this seems to concern some people, though it is expressly OFF the FCPS boundary study scope, as it should be. I'll bet you'll see that Reston is pricier than surrounding comparables. A townhouse we bought there in 1988 for $140K is now $450K. Go figure. Some balloons will pop.

Hop's first post.

Parents, please tell your kids to go to bed.

Hop, keep working on that sense of humor, pal.

>
> Third smallest enrollment in the county - 1400 in
> a school with 2050 capacity - sounds like a
> problem when nearby schools have 2800 and 3100.
> Underenrollment is THE issue...

I think it is very debatable that underenrollment in and of itself warrants redistricting. There needs to be a problem, a serious problem, that underenrollment is causing. Yes, obviously there are some inefficiencies, but I would like to see numbers attached to this. Additionally, the extent of the underenrollment should be such that it is causing or will potentially cause in the near future, a situation where the school in question is not meeting established standards for Fairfax County Public Schools. A simple list of coursees which are not offered due to low enrollment isn't enough.

Keep in mind, I am not saying this situation doesn't exist today. The fact is, I don't know. However, it doesn't appear the School Board is interested in providing this information to concerned citizens or analyzing this to the extent necessary to make a solid, informed decision. It seems they have already made up their minds.

Gator: Would anyone care, do you think, if they knew that poor kids would truly benefit if they were a smaller percentage of the total numbers of kids at their schools? Where is the "fairness" of having a tiny FRL percentage at three schools, one overcrowded, and 28% at another, underenrolled? Socioeconomic balance is a big deal. We're in this together.

I guess I'd tell the obdurate posters who call this "social engineering" or "busing" (which is misguided, of course) that THEY can leave the county and live elsewhere if they don't like the fact that this school system looks out for the needs of ALL children, not just theirs. They seem quite displeased about this. And their kids would most assuredly have a thoroughly rewarding and successful experience at South Lakes.

WWJD?

As someone wrote earlier, "The most important task for anyone involved in this boundary change discussion is to become informed and keep an open mind and heart. We must remember that we are greater than the sum of our parts. Our school system functions well because it is supported by huge numbers of people who have no direct interest in it, and who care about the system as a whole. It succeeds because people understand how to compromise for the greater good."

Posted by: Muse (IP Logged)
Date: November 18, 2007 11:54PM

"Forum Reader,

Marshall has half the number of students on free and reduced lunch (15% to SL 33%)..."
......................
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Muse (IP Logged)
Date: November 19, 2007 08:57AM

"George Mason has a very small percentage of kids on FRL. I think it is around 1-2%. ... Incidentally, AP Fan, how many diplomas did George Mason students earn last year. Last time I looked the number was not statistically significant..."
............
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Muse (IP Logged)
Date: November 19, 2007 03:55PM

"... IB didn't start at SL until 2001 and the first graduating class of IB students was 2004..."
.............
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Muse (IP Logged)
Date: November 19, 2007 07:08PM
"... The first SL class graduating with IB was in 2004, ..."

------------------
Muse,
You really need to learn to verify your data before you post them as fact. You wrote Marshall has 15% FRM and SLHS has 33%. However, the Commonwealth's FRM data dated May 2007 (available at [www.pen.k12.va.us]) states Marshall is 17.07% FRM and South Lakes is 26.87% FRM.

You state George Mason has 1-2% FRM students and claim the number of [IB| diplomas earned last year was “not statistically significant.” Again according data on the Commonwealth’s Department of Education web site, last year George Mason had 810 students in grades 8-12, an average of only 163 per grade, with 8.27% FRM. Yet in the 2005-2006 school year in this very small school with only 151 graduates, 26 earned the IB Diploma AND 114 students took one or more AP courses. This seems to disprove the South Lakes argument that it “needs” more students to offer a rich IB programme.

You have written twice that the first SL class graduating with IB was in 2004. However, South Lakes's own web site shows six IB Diplomas were awarded in May 2001, three years earlier than you claim.

You ask my motives. I am on this forum simply because I believe the discussion should be based on FACTS and not dissolve into name-calling.

Forum Reader Wrote:

> ------------------
> Muse,
> You really need to learn to verify your data
> before you post them as fact. You wrote Marshall
> has 15% FRM and SLHS has 33%. However, the
> Commonwealth's FRM data dated May 2007 (available
> at ) states Marshall is 17.07% FRM and South Lakes
> is 26.87% FRM.
>
I don't know Muse, but I'll defend his/her use of the 33% figure, That's the number on the FCPS website on the SL profile under demographics,so maybe FCPS and the Commonwealth are measuring differently.

Hey Muse,

You've suddenly become very quiet. Why don't jump and help SLParent with my question:


Posted by: SLParent

"Why do any of you care if a student is on Free or Reduced lunch? It drives me crazy that this issue is a common theme..........

They talk the same, they play sports the same and they behave the same. Just because someone doesn't come from a certain income family home does not make them a less desirable student."

-----------

My guestion is the following:

Your school has 1/3 of its enrollment on free-lunch, a figure which will decline when my children are bused in. Would you sound so lofty if the redistricting plan would, instead, cause an increase in that percentage to say 50% or 60% ?

After all, you have declared that low income kids are no less desirable.

VaDriver wrote:


"There appears to be only one group strongly advocating a change..(other than the School Board)...and, that group is the South Lakes PTSA and its active parents.

On the front page of the South Lakes November newsletter, the PTSA, as well as the SL's Principal, advocate for redistricting. Certainly, SL parents have been incredibly active here at this site. They have everything to gain. Improve their school's image...maybe offer a few extremely advanced courses to a few kids ath their school but the big one is...a huge gain in their real estate value. It will be on our backs...our real estate value will take a five year dive. Thanks alot South Lakes.


Of all the schools affected, South Lakes is the only one strongly supporting the effort.

Obviously, there should be a different solution...if, in fact, there really is a problem in the first place."

______________


Yes, and they've called us egocentric, narrow minded racists. Why? Because we're having trouble with the concept of donating our children and home values to their cause. Don't you feel like you're being robbed?

NIMBY Wrote:
>
> Third smallest enrollment in the county - 1400 in
> a school with 2050 capacity - sounds like a
> problem when nearby schools have 2800 and 3100.
> Underenrollment is THE issue...

------------
Why? Mt Vernon has been vastly under-enrolled for at least a decade yet this has never been mentioned as a problem. To the contrary, FCPS recently built an unneeded new secondary school rather than move more students into Mt Vernon. Falls Church has fewer students than South Lakes and more empty seats. Marshall also has fewer students than South Lakes. I have not heard any of these other high schools are trying to get more students by redistricting. Why is this an issue ONLY for Spouth Lakes?

Posted by: Location, location
Date: November 18, 2007 07:58AM



"The last I looked our Reston area is quite a desirable place to live with high-end real estate and amazing communities. After looking at some of these comments from the parents of students out there, think it might be better if you and your kids do stay where you are!"



WOW......Sounds like a fabulous place with all those amazing desirable high-end real estate communities. Real fancy and all. Sure doesn't sound like you need us at all.

And, as you say, after meeting us, you've changed your mind and don't want us or our kids any longer. Great!!!! Let's call the whole thing off.

Forum Reader, since you are so into facts, you might want to check on who initiated the redistricting. South Lakes most assuredly did not initiate the redistricting.

As to the FRL number discrepancies, they are reported differently by the Commonwealth than they are by the County. So don't challenge facts when you don't know from where they are derived. Earlier today I asked the principal at SL to check into the number discrepancies and report back. The numbers that I have read for George Mason indicate 1-2% on FRL.

I checked the SL Website and it does indeed indicate that there were 6 IB Diploma graduates in 2001. I was pulling the information from a different source. It does not mean that I was trying to mislead, just that my source was incorrect. At any rate, it really makes no difference to this discussion. Would you rather I posted a picture of sh$%, as some lofty StopRD person did?

George Mason High School's web site indicates that they awarded 26 IB diplomas out of 151 graduates (17.2%). South Lakes awarded 45 diplomas out of roughly 330 graduates (13.6%). If we were to remove the graduates from the MMR center at South Lakes, since they are clearly not eligible for IB, then our percentage improves. Considering that George Mason has had the IB program since 1981 and South Lakes initiated the program in 2000 (19 years later), I'd say South Lakes is doing pretty well. This year there are 47 diploma candidates and for the class of 2009 there are 74 intended candidates.

The school really should not be measured by the number of candidates anyway, but rather by the number of students taking IB classes. We don't judge AP schools by such a strict criteria.

As has been discussed here many times, the School Board did not include MV in the South County study. They caved to public pressure, which was the wrong thing to do. As a taxpayer, I was very upset about it. They are doing the right thing in this part of the County. Perhaps they have learned some lessons. It makes perfect sense that they are not addressing the central part of the county in this study. That does not mean they are not concerned about it and will not address it in the future. One does not negate the other.

We South Lakes parents have had to spend a lot of time correcting the record about our school and defending it from without, and possibly in your case, from within. That is the nature of this board. I repeat, we did not initiate this action but we are glad that the County is addressing the enrollment discrepancies. Many on this board would have us roll over and play dead instead of fight for our school. That is our right.

Forun Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ------------
> Why? Mt Vernon has been vastly under-enrolled for
> at least a decade yet this has never been
> mentioned as a problem.

Clearly, you did not pay any attention to the South County redistricting or you would have known that the Mount Vernon parents very much wanted their school in the study. Read my post above.

Clarifier,
You think townhouses in Reston are worth more than those in Vienna and Oakton? I think not.

Muse,
Don't worry about something similar to South County boundary changes happening with South Lakes. No one will cave on this one. Too many deals have already been made. We know that Kathy, Stu, and Janie are in agreement. Liz Bradshear will support it since Stu supported her on South County and because Stu will support her again on her new middle school. Moon will support Stu, as always, and so will newcomer Tina Hone, because Stu will support all of her affirmative action proposals. All other school board members will vote with Stu since it's not their districts. Members don't mess with other member's schools. Phil will also support them, but he could vote against them, just to appear he cares about Oakton, knowing that they have more than the 7 votes to get what they want. Ditto Jim Raney. Democrats may let him vote against them, knowing it will pass anyway.

It's a totally done deal. Stick a fork in it. The ONLY question might be, which school, in addition to McNair will go. I'm betting on Foxmill or Floris.

Of course families in a school don't initiate changes in boundaries. School board members do. I have NO doubt that Stu has been planning this for many years, waiting for the renovation to be completed.

>>>Why is this an issue ONLY for South Lakes?<<<

Because Stu Gibson has the power to do it. He can do the redistricting without taking students from any other district, if he had chosen to do it that way. He can take kids only from Hunter Mill, needing no other school board member to be in agreement. But Kathy Smith was nice enough to throw some of her school districts under the bus and allow them to be considered for South Lakes. Janie allowed Herndon students to be in the study, knowing they'd never be moved to South Lakes. She would not agree to any students from Langley to even be in the boundary study, as is obvious. She didn't want there to be ANY chance that Langley students might be sent to South Lakes.

McNair's a done deal. They'll go to South Lakes. But there has to be one other school with them. My best guess is Foxmill or Floris. Those are the easiest solution, the least hassle for Kathy and Stu.

>>>Yes, and they've called us egocentric, narrow minded racists. Why? Because we're having trouble with the concept of donating our children and home values to their cause. Don't you feel like you're being robbed?<<<

Well, that is the reality. You are being robbed of the choices you've made for your children's education. And you're being robbed of real money in the value of your home.

I'm sorry that they are robbing you of what you have chosen, and paid for. It totally stinks.

McNair's a done deal. They'll go to South Lakes. But there has to be one other school with them. My best guess is Foxmill or Floris. Those are the easiest solution, the least hassle for Kathy and Stu.


Why don't you think that Crossfield will be moved? They are the closest geographically to South Lakes and a portion of the school ALREADY goes to South Lakes. This would eliminate the split feeder problem.

The Herndon PTA boundary website has a chart with driving distances from schools to schools done off the FCPS map function. That is only relevant if school buildings are in the middle of their attendance areas or have the bulk of the students living near the school. It also does not consider driving time. Aldrin and Forest Edge are extremely close and have intertwining boundaries - it takes a lot less time to get to Herndon HS from Forest Edge than it does to drive to South Lakes.

I doubt it would be a scenario, but I could see everything with easy access to Wiehle at Herndon which would mean removing neighborhoods from the lower portion of Herndon's attendance area. There are many ways to use these buildings- Westfield as a secondary school? Kids from Cville into Westfields?


? on Chantilly: how much space does the academy take up? Where do most of those kids come from? How many are there? Does Chantilly need the modular for 300 because of the Academy? Chantilly is such a great location and people can actually go to school near their houses. I think it was a dumb place for an academy.

FCPS is so out of whack the consortiums for High schools of the Future don't match the pyramids or where people live. The people in charge of pyramids should function as mini asst supt 's - get that level of pay. In some bizarre geographical twist- Langley including all people who live in Herndon [or near it]and Reston is included with Stuart.


? on South Lakes: how much space will the culinary academy use? How many regular ed students does the culinary subtract from the capacity number? Is that the 50? how many of the IB diploma candidates are pupil placements? With high schools of the future it seems possible that many ESl and FRPM students will be bussed out to a vo-tech program. Gibson's putting kitchen worker academy at South Lakes seems to guarantee high ESL. However, South Lakes is a good location for a reg ed AP high school.

IB is an expensive program and should only be at the high school level. The South Lakes and Marshall programs should be merged at the Marshall site with the TJ busses making a stop at Marshall. Removing Academies from Chantilly/South Lakes as well as South Lakes IB create the opportunity for solid geographical AP schools with enrollments over 2000.

The South Lakes course offerings and pupil teacher ratios would improve since the principal would no longer be forced to run higher level IB classes irregardless of enrollment.

This boundary process is messed up for many reasons especially since it is a pre-determined outcome with tweaks [ie southern Herndon boundaries] that did not consider middle school allignments at a co-located site. If families with good transportation times to Chantilly get hit with Oakton commutes that stinks. What about grandfathering? Imagine a freshman or sophomore at South Lakes and a senior at Westfield? If kids are in anything on a Friday Night Lights activity in fall the parents are going to lose their sanity. For football what if you have 2 non-drivers at different schools far apart - then you would have a huge problem all summer too with lifting and conditionning. Then kids in band ...what if kids are in a play at a school?

The whole thing is stupid - one of my kids suggested that the best way to determine where families focus their lives might be if they had to run to the store at more than a 7-11 level but less than a field trip to Cosco where would they go? Boundaries by Giant/Safeway or Blockbuster?

That would work for many schools with gerrymandered high school boundaries. Change them so your kids go to school with people who commonly shop at your main supermarket because to go to another store would be stupid.

Herndon Resident,

90%+ of Crossfield now goes to Oakton, so the split feeder is not a major factor. If you move it to South Lakes, then you have to move Fox Mill also or you get an attendance island. Given the long distance from Fox Mill to Oakton, its hard to believe they would propose moving Crossfield and keeping Fox Mill in place and creating an island.

There are too many students in the combination of fox mill and crossfield to move both to South Lakes.

While there may be parts of Crossfield that are closer to South Lakes, if you look at where the people live in the district, the Fox Mill students live closer to South Lakes. Crossfield families are mostly in the far west edge of the district. I would be surprised if Fox Mill was not moved. (Apparently, so would they...they voted against Stu by 2:1.)

Herndon Resident,

If Crossfield is moved to SouthLakes then a vacuum is created moving additional students from Chantilly to Oakton ( on top of all of Navy). This likely moves some Westfield to Chantilly also. This is on top of Westfield to Oakton and possible Herndon changes. Doing this would make this whole boundary change three times what it needs to be and a sure case of "social agenda".

FYI- I don't really consider outlaying (sp?) pocket neighborhoods that are immaterial in quantity to be split feeders. I am against split feeders as they define "community" but there are many small pockets of kids across the county that hang out there.

It is important to keep the Crossfield community as one. Just as Aldrin, Fox Mill, Navy (finally), anf FLoris. McNair is a hot growth area that split cannot be avoided.

FYI- What ever the school board has already decided, I hope they left 300 extra slots open for McNair growth. If they applied it to SLHS then they would only need 500 kids right now.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Yes, and they've called us egocentric, narrow
> minded racists. Why? Because we're having trouble
> with the concept of donating our children and home
> values to their cause. Don't you feel like you're
> being robbed?<<<
>
> Well, that is the reality. You are being robbed
> of the choices you've made for your children's
> education. And you're being robbed of real money
> in the value of your home.
>
> I'm sorry that they are robbing you of what you
> have chosen, and paid for. It totally stinks.


I totally agree with you.

"Don't worry about something similar to South County boundary changes happening with South Lakes. No one will cave on this one. Too many deals have already been made. We know that Kathy, Stu, and Janie are in agreement. Liz Bradshear will support it since Stu supported her on South County and because Stu will support her again on her new middle school. Moon will support Stu, as always, and so will newcomer Tina Hone, because Stu will support all of her affirmative action proposals. All other school board members will vote with Stu since it's not their districts. Members don't mess with other member's schools. Phil will also support them, but he could vote against them, just to appear he cares about Oakton, knowing that they have more than the 7 votes to get what they want. Ditto Jim Raney. Democrats may let him vote against them, knowing it will pass anyway"

How could any middle school be built when there are so many empty seats at the shared-boundary schools of Hayfield, MV, and LB? Hayfield and LB alone can currently handle the South County overcapacity. MV is in a unique situation with South County. The roads look relatively direct but the necessary limited access to Ft. Belvoir blocks many roads that were previously allowed for public use.

Clarifier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gator: Would anyone care, do you think, if they
> knew that poor kids would truly benefit if they
> were a smaller percentage of the total numbers of
> kids at their schools? Where is the "fairness" of
> having a tiny FRL percentage at three schools, one
> overcrowded, and 28% at another, underenrolled?
> Socioeconomic balance is a big deal. We're in this
> together.
>
> I guess I'd tell the obdurate posters who call
> this "social engineering" or "busing" (which is
> misguided, of course) that THEY can leave the
> county and live elsewhere if they don't like the
> fact that this school system looks out for the
> needs of ALL children, not just theirs. They seem
> quite displeased about this. And their kids would
> most assuredly have a thoroughly rewarding and
> successful experience at South Lakes.
>
> WWJD?
>
> As someone wrote earlier, "The most important
> task for anyone involved in this boundary change
> discussion is to become informed and keep an open
> mind and heart. We must remember that we are
> greater than the sum of our parts. Our school
> system functions well because it is supported by
> huge numbers of people who have no direct interest
> in it, and who care about the system as a whole.
> It succeeds because people understand how to
> compromise for the greater good."


the greater good?

are you so selfish that you think whatever serves you serves everyone else?


your home value is not the greater good... taking kids out of a better school and putting them in a lesser school is not the greater good.

the only people getting anything out of this are the homeowners of reston SL district and that's a fact.

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
>
> > ------------------
> > Muse,
> > You really need to learn to verify your data
> > before you post them as fact. You wrote
> Marshall
> > has 15% FRM and SLHS has 33%. However, the
> > Commonwealth's FRM data dated May 2007
> (available
> > at ) states Marshall is 17.07% FRM and South
> Lakes
> > is 26.87% FRM.
> >
> I don't know Muse, but I'll defend his/her use of
> the 33% figure, That's the number on the FCPS
> website on the SL profile under demographics,so
> maybe FCPS and the Commonwealth are measuring
> differently.

------------
The Commonwealth gets its data from FCPS. Can ANYONE explain how South Lakes jumped from a quarter to a third FRM between May and September 18th, the date listed on the handout?

Can we agree that if we are to compare apples to apples, then we need to look at the same source at the same point in time for all schools? Go to the FCPS statistics page at http://www.fcps.edu and add "/Reporting/" Then click on "Free and Reduced Price Lunch." Now we can all see enrollment and FRM data for every school in the Commonwealth for each of the last ten years.

Another question for all: Every time I try to post a web site it gets truncated. How can I post "http://www.fcps.edu and add '/Reporting/' " all at once?

Another question for all: Every time I try to post a web site it gets truncated. How can I post "http://www.fcps.edu and add '/Reporting/' " all at once?

The website link\URL might look truncated but if you click on the link you will go the correct the page. The software does the truncating for display.

If you really want to do the full path then lookup how to add anchor tags or www.fcps.edu/Reporting/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2007 09:49AM by Lurker..

Forum Reader Wrote:

> ------------
> The Commonwealth gets its data from FCPS. Can
> ANYONE explain how South Lakes jumped from a
> quarter to a third FRM between May and September
> 18th, the date listed on the handout?
>

Dear FR,

It appears that you are looking at incorrect data. From Bruce Butler: The FRM for 2006/2007 was 33%. The FRM for 2007/2008 is 28%.

The percentage FRM did not jump, as you say. It dropped.

Clearly, the numbers you site are not entirely accurate.

To the poster who somehow cast aspersions on those that aver the planned redistricting is in large measure due to social engineering, the answer is that of course it is social engineering. This, however, doesn't mean that redistricting should not take place. Under-enrollment is a problem, and in SLHS' case, it is more than just a problem with efficiency and facility utilization. The school is (and this is according to those that support the school) is still at a tipping point - albeit on a course that appears upward - by both statistical achievement measures and otherwise - and it needs a bigger critical mass of middle to upper middle class students to survive and prosper. And yes, notwithstanding any attempts to magnetize, make for special programs, or anything of the sort, the school will not get the critical mass that it needs in the absence of a compelled redistricting. So in the end, like it or not, transferor parents will be called upon, at least in perception (one can argue about the reality endlessly) to make a sacrifice in terms of not advancing their self interest for the greater good of the community - because believe me - take a look at most schools that have somehow have had the misfortune of their schools to arrive at a negative demographic - and with narrow exceptions, these demographics are depressingly similar all across the country - and these schools really start to suffer - tremendously so. This of course explains the stridency of the South Lakes parents here - they assert - with considerable reason and logic - to take a balanced look at the school - because they have to - they have a tremendous amount at stake - if the school loses another 200-300 middle to upper middle class kids, it could really be in for a hard time. Anyone that doubts these statistical realities ought to take a gander at the Pinellas County Schools in Florida, which for personal reasons I happen to know a lot about. What began down there as a racial desegregation plan borne from a lawsuit (with good intentions) has morphed into a giant social engineering plan, where each school is striving to have the right number of the right race and income kids, because if they don't the school at issue doesn't have "it", it simply implodes, and fast. Such is the reality of schools today, and of the lack of cultural capital in certain communities. We are actually lucky here in Fairfax that those problems only occur here in a somewhat elliptical and less concentrated fashion.

Which brings me to answering the question - WWJD? A fantastic question - because Jesus belonged to a tribe of people that value literacy and education for thousands of years - and would no doubt view the societal obligation to be literate and educated as an important one. In that vein, it is hardly mean (or overbearing, or reflect of some other negative name) to approach this particular situation as one that with a cold studied eye looks at how the educational needs of the transferor families will be met - the best possible thing that SLHS could do would be to engage in a full court press to meet their educational and social needs.

BirdLover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Muse,
>
> You've suddenly become very quiet. Why don't jump
> and help SLParent with my question:
>
>
> Posted by: SLParent
>
> "Why do any of you care if a student is on Free or
> Reduced lunch? It drives me crazy that this issue
> is a common theme..........
>
> They talk the same, they play sports the same and
> they behave the same. Just because someone doesn't
> come from a certain income family home does not
> make them a less desirable student."
>
> -----------
>
> My guestion is the following:
>
> Your school has 1/3 of its enrollment on
> free-lunch, a figure which will decline when my
> children are bused in. Would you sound so lofty if
> the redistricting plan would, instead, cause an
> increase in that percentage to say 50% or 60% ?
>
> After all, you have declared that low income kids
> are no less desirable.


Birdlover - Lofty or not it's the truth. It doesn't matter to me if the child is on free or reduced lunch. A lot of work I have done in the community is working with kids from all income levels so I guess I am used to dealing with these types of issues than others.

Tell me if you have ever seen a kid mow lawns to pay his registration fee for a sport? I have and guess what, he's a great kid. We would all benefit for learning from all students and not judging them based on their parent's income.

Why was South County Secondary built at ALL? It is surrounded by middle and high schools with enough space for all the South County students.

The construction of South County Secondary School did NOT go though the School Bond process that every other new construction and renovation project has used. South County was built using Economic Development Bonds. The payback for these bonds was inserted into the CIP AHEAD of the already scheduled renovation of South Lakes.

That single, unneeded, non-voter approved school construction project delayed for two years the renovation of South Lakes and all the rest of the schools on the list. What is to prevent similar construction of an unneeded new middle school?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why was South County Secondary built at ALL? It is
> surrounded by middle and high schools with enough
> space for all the South County students.
>
> The construction of South County Secondary School
> did NOT go though the School Bond process that
> every other new construction and renovation
> project has used. South County was built using
> Economic Development Bonds. The payback for these
> bonds was inserted into the CIP AHEAD of the
> already scheduled renovation of South Lakes.
>
> That single, unneeded, non-voter approved school
> construction project delayed for two years the
> renovation of South Lakes and all the rest of the
> schools on the list. What is to prevent similar
> construction of an unneeded new middle school?

nothing- Bradsher will dig into that CIP like a jack russell terrier going for rats. Hyland, Storck, Connelly, Davis, Albo etc are all for building a legacy. Hunt was a build at all costs guy for south county. Who knows what Hone and Raney will do? Both are from Providence district and would seem to not be inclined to build it - but Gerry wants it and he's from Providence.

Why do you think school board members allowed Stu's and Janie's boundary process to exclude Langley? Smith is irrelvant in the scheme of things. Why do you think that addition is under construction now? Votes were sold.

forum reader
you hit the nail on the head. Bradsheer and her well healed supporters wanted a country club school for her Fairfax Station neighbors. Problem is the school is located in Lorton and darn it all some of the Lorton rift raft were allowed to go to a school located in their town.

I would broaden the scope to include more high schools, that is add Langley, Centreville, Fairfax, and all of Madison to the mix. All one has to do is look at the map to see how screwed up things are. Also, the county did not help by the way it placed schools over the years (For example, Madison, Oakton, Fairfax and Woodson are all in line within 5 miles of each other. Same goes for Langley, McLean and Marshall; it created long spread out boundaries.) Let’s be more geographically focused and forget trying to influence socio economics and diversity. Let’s face it, pockets exist of many groups in this part of the County – the well to do, the less well off, white, black, hispanic, asian, etc., and we can’t worry about creating a “perfect” mix. That criterion should be disregarded; it only creates tension, which is the underlying force in many posts here. However, no one can ignore the logic of geography or location.

From what I have been able to gather from the data presented by the FCPS, most recently at the Nov. 12 meeting:

Fact: South Lakes is under utilized, by about 700 students and has been recently renovated.

Fact: Chantilly has too many students. (Does anyone know if the Academy students at Chantilly are part of its total numbers or in addition? My understanding is that children are bussed from other high schools to attend the Academy and it’s not all Chantilly based students.)

Fact: Westfields is listed as having a capacity of 3100, and even though it is presently overenrolled at 3171, its 08-09 projection is 3050, with more decreases in the out years. (So technically, Westfields doesn’t have a problem, since the boundary changes won’t occur until next year.)

Fact: All of the other schools in the study, Herndon, Oakton, and Madison, are at or very near to their present capacities, with future enrollment numbers not changing significantly.

Based on those facts, how do we as a community (not the School Board’s will) solve the problem?

Here are my 2 cents:

1. Consider moving the Chantilly Academy to South Lakes to help utilize the space. This is a win-win, if it decreases the size of Chantilly and moves programs and students to SL. Also, students will attend the Academy by choice and not be forced. Again, I’m not sure how many slots this affects.

2. If # 1 can’t happen, I strongly believe South Lakes should draw from Reston schools first Aldrin (291 students) and Armstrong (248 students). I know this severely impacts Herndon, but it could be backfilled with Langley, or Westfields students (McNair, 360 and/or Floris, 488).

3. I think WF is too large of a school to manage; it should be closer to other schools’ numbers. If you throw out #1 and #2, I’d move the students from McNair (360 who presently go to WF) to SL or (if you act on premise #2) to Herndon. The 360 is half of what they are looking for at SL. The way I see it, the area feeding McNair is some of the newest housing in Fairfax Co., and it’s only right that it should be moved first. Most of those people haven’t been there for very long and have less time in their developments than other more established neighborhoods. But we all know these are not the high functioning families that Stuey is looking for at SL. Additionally, I’d look at moving the students going to the new elementary school (I believe it’s Coppermine) to SL. If we’re looking for more functionality, consider moving Floris ES to South Lakes.

3. If McNair or Floris are moved to South Lakes or Herndon, consider moving Oak Hill ES (395 students) to WF. This helps decrease numbers at Chantilly.

4. As for the Madison Island, it’s surrounded on 3 sides by the SL borders. Move it, it’s a no brainer, but it’s only 37 students. There are other parts of the Madison feeders, a Flint Hill Island and the northern reaches of Oakton ES that could easily be moved to SL. However, this would turn Madison into the next SL with it being under enrolled.

5. The same for moving Fox Mill ES (342 students) and/or Crossfield ES (558) to SL. Number one, it’s too many students, 900; SL can’t take that many. Number 2, it would devastate Oakton, leaving it severely under enrolled. The bigger problem, there’s really no where other than Navy (290 students) to send to Oakton, without busing students from further west over the Fox Mill or Crossfield boundaries, unless the Board wants to look at moving Fairfax HS or Madison students to Oakton. If you move only Crossfield, you create a Fox Mill island. (The board says it wants to eliminate those, and I thoroughly agree.) Additionally, there is presently a Navy Island (70 students) in the Franklin Farm community, which feeds into Oakton. Where should they go?


In conclusion, the biggest problem is that any move from one school to another, in most cases, creates another issue. Again, the most logical solution is moving the Chantilly Academy to SL. If only I was a School Board idiot . . .

Muse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
>
> > ------------
> > The Commonwealth gets its data from FCPS. Can
> > ANYONE explain how South Lakes jumped from a
> > quarter to a third FRM between May and
> September
> > 18th, the date listed on the handout?
> >
>
> Dear FR,
>
> It appears that you are looking at incorrect data.
> From Bruce Butler: The FRM for 2006/2007 was
> 33%. The FRM for 2007/2008 is 28%.
>
> The percentage FRM did not jump, as you say. It
> dropped.
>
> Clearly, the numbers you site are not entirely
> accurate.

--------
The numbers I list are entirely accurate as posted on the state web site that I provided earlier. This chart, revised May 1, 2007, states 299 South Lakes students were eligible for free lunches; an additional 103 were eligible for reduced price meals. Total FR: 402. Total FR %: 26.87%.

I am not hung up on this precise number (or, for that matter, the topic of FRM in general) but rather I am pointing out the process. I am using data that are available to everyone so that we can all look at the same data source at the same point in time for all schools.

It would facilitate rational discussion if you would do the same. For example, you have written, "SL class of 2007 earned 45 IB Diplomas." Could you please advise the rest of us where this number is posted?

" some of the Lorton rift raft were allowed to go to a school located in their town"

Not anymore. They got booted back to Hayfield as a result of the 2007 boundary study with SC, H, and LB.

Observer,
Not all of them
Much of the Lorton Station ES area was returned to Hayfield but some in Lorton South of Lorton Station continue to go to South County as does all of the Mason Neck Area.

When Liz builds the new middle school do you think those not allowed in her South County will be allowed back when the middle school makes more room.

The county should not build a middle school but should move some of Faifax Station to the newly renovated under capacity Lake Braddock

Quantum wrote:


"The school..........needs a bigger critical mass of middle to upper middle class students to survive and prosper......... So in the end, like it or not, transferor parents will be called upon, at least in perception (one can argue about the reality endlessly) to make a sacrifice in terms of not advancing their self interest for the greater good of the community -"

--------------------------

Did you help write the Communist Manifesto?

So, you bestow upon a few comrades the power to decide how I will sacrifice to help society. What a crock...

Hey, Quantum, my husband needs a new kidney and I've decided you should donate one of yours. Don't get bogged down in a perception that you might suffer because in reality you probably won't. Don't be selfish. Get over here and hand one over.

If I were a School Board idiot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would broaden the scope to include more high
> schools, that is add Langley, Centreville,
> Fairfax, and all of Madison to the mix. ...

> 1. Consider moving the Chantilly Academy to South
> Lakes to help utilize the space. ...
>
> 3. I think WF is too large of a school to manage;
> it should be closer to other schools’ numbers. ...

EXCELLENT ideas, but I have a detail that must be considered: Fairfax is a unique case because Fairfax City is a separate legal entity. All public middle and high school students who live inside the city limits must attend Fairfax HS. They may not be redistricted out in any scenario, but other "County" students may be (and sometimes are) included within the Fairfax HS boundaries. Woodson is right on the edge of Fairfax City so students who live across the street from Woodson to the north and west are bused to Fairfax. That single detail affects all the other possible redistricting.

What do the rest of you think? Should Westfield be turned into a secondary school of one thousand middle schoolers and two thousand high schoolers? That would get the high school to that magic 2,000 that FCPS has suddenly embraced.

When Liz builds the new middle school do you think those not allowed in her South County will be allowed back when the middle school makes more room.
I think the Crosspointe Crowd is SAYING they want everybody back to get the middle school built ahead of the CIP schedule, but in reality, they will fight to keep the revised boundaries.
The county should not build a middle school but should move some of Faifax Station to the newly renovated under capacity Lake Braddock
AGREE!!!!!

For interesting reading read the comments from this blog http://fairboundaries.blogspot.com Entry 2/23/07 and the 2 entries in October, 2006.

Observer,
I am well aware of that blog, and in fact many of the comments were my own. I find it interesting many of the comments on this blog are similar to comments when South County and Hayfield went in the second round of boundary studies.

Bradsheer ran for school board specifically to get a middle school built and to avoid having part of Fairfax Station redistricted to Lake Braddock to relieve South County Secondary. Hayfield did its part in taking back some of the to many students sent to South County while Lake Braddock and the Crosspointe crowd fought tooth and nail to delay utilizing the space at Lake Braddock which just completed renovation and additions. Now they want a Middle school when space is available in Lake Braddock. Does this sound familier. Since financing most of the school budget comes from real estate taxes and those funds are projected to go down it will be interesting to see how they justify building another school on the backs of the tax payers when they have plenty of space a neighboring secondary school.

I thought this was a South Lakes issue, how the hell did South County get into this.

Forum Reader

Can students who live outside of Fairfax City, but who go to Fairfax HS, be considered for realignment?

There's students from Greenbriar, very close to Chantilly, that go to Fairfax.

Also, areas north of 66 and Rt.50, Penderbrook, which go to FFX.

Sorry ?
I will drop it. Ran into this blog and found it similar to the South County redistricting from a couple years ago.

Can't wait to see you all on TV when they have the public comments in front of the Board. Get ready for some long nights.

PS
Don't trust anything Gibson says. He will say one thing and stab you in the back in a heartbeat. Trust me we know down here in the South part of the county.
Carry on.

To the School Board,

Why aren't you touching Langley. Are you afraid of them? Are you indebted to them? Do they give you little gifts? As my kids would say, "Is Langley the boss of you?

What, you say, you're not corrupt?

PROOVE IT ..... SEND LANGELY KIDS TO SOUTH LAKES!!!!!!!

This is ridiculous. You guys are worse than the kids!
This is not in any way trying to be mean, but we students feel that the best way for you all to really see what the school is like is to actually talk to people that go to the school! There have already been tours, and we are happy to show you guys around.
Before you judge the school, please talk to the student population.

To the Lying School Board:


Less than a year ago, you said that Langley was overcrowded. and that all neighboring schools were filled to capacity. So.... you approved a 7.1 million dollar addition to Langley.

Just how deep into their pockets are you?