Graymoose, feel better now?

Solution: Don't bring up the URL: Fairfaxunderground.com.

That would solve one of your many problems.


graymoose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good God Why don't all of you whiny ass people
> give this topic a rest.
> Boo hoo hoo my kid has to go here, my kid has go
> there. who in the hell gives a shit. Life is not
> fair, tell them to suck it up and move on

Relevant article in NY Times today: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/magazine/20integration-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=education

And another article that touches on some comments/feelings posted here: http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-lincoln16-2008jul16,0,3130880.story?page=1&track=rss

I have a couple of questions related to IB/AP and grades. Both AP and IB offer a .5 bump, right? The FCPS webpage on academic programs says you can only get that bump if you take the related exams (which you have to do anyway in the county so I don't understand that stipulation) so does that mean you don't get the .5 until after the exam? Thus in IB schools students really don't benefit from the exams in time for college apps, if it isn't added until May of their senior year (even the SL exams are usually taken senior year..they take the six exams during a couple of weeks in May). Whereas in AP schools kids could be taking AP classes in their sophomore year, and in particular take a slew of them in their junior year to bump up the relevant GPA for college apps.

Who has had kids already go through this process and can explain when and how the .5 bump takes place. And should this be something to bring up with FAIRGRADE, the issue of how AP students might be perceived as better off at time of college app than IB students in Fairfax.

Sorry if this isn't a popular opinion, but it's the truth and sometimes that hurts.

I'll be damned if I am going to allow my kids to associate in the same school with any kids other than blonde hair blue eyes Catholics that are upper class! PERIOD! I don't care how much money it takes to accomplish this!

The Fairfax County School Board has no right to send my kids to other schools!

I just found out from a guidance counselor that the GPA is calculated with the .5 bump at the end of the year when the course is taken, and recalculated if for some reason the student doesn't take the AP or IB exam.

Oakton Dad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I'll be damned if I am going to allow my kids to associate in the same school with any kids other than blonde hair blue eyes Catholics that are upper class!< <

Bigotry is a grave sin in our church, my brother. Get thee to a confessional.

Take about curious. iam curious like a cat.

Dont you people have ears? This is baffling. Quantum physics cant explain this phenomenon. Meeper and inkahoot say enough ib ap stuff. Soon we will have to move this jabbering to off topic. Can you hear that? Oh, now your ears wake up Ican see.

< Nean and Baffle will lead the way with the Thomas english muffin guy and the rest will be good IB AP nerds and then peace will slowly desend upon this fine institution

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Dad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > I'll be damned if I am going to allow my kids
> to associate in the same school with any kids
> other than blonde hair blue eyes Catholics that
> are upper class!< <
>
> Bigotry is a grave sin in our church, my brother.
> Get thee to a confessional.

My brothern, if you want your kids to hang out with FAT blubbery, black haired, jewish kids that smoke crack thats fine, but not mine. I donate plenty to the Catholic church, I'll bet you donate dime at collection time!

The FairCAPS lawsuit will win and you'll just have to deal it!

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Kindly pull your forked tongue out of your
> cheek,
> > Neen. They are called Vienna limousine
> liberals
> > and what they fail to understand is that the
> > schmucks they keep voting in will eventually
> drag
> > down their community as well. Didn't you
> already
> > admit yesterday that Madison is on the decline.
>
> > You know, as your rich limousine liberal
> neighbors
> > redevelop Vienna Woods one house at a time they
> > will grow the accompanying liberal guilt and
> > before you know it, they will have their very
> own
> > version of Reston Interfaith- only it will be
> your
> > neighborhood where they buy the affordable
> housing
> > units - right there next to the puplic
> > transportation. Then, the schadenfreude will
> be
> > sweet from my perspective.
> >
> > Cheers.
>
> But, according to Thomas More, no low income
> housing is being built anywhere. The town of
> Vienna is not next to the metro. Nor does the
> town have any low income housing. Nor will it.
> There is no place in the town to build cheap
> apartments.
>
> How does Reston inter faith control ALL of the
> voters in Reston?
>
> Sorry dear, but screaming liberals, in their
> birkenstocks and granny dresses, will always want
> to be with their own kind and will gravitate to
> Reston and Alexandria.
>
> Madison is declining for the same reason that many
> (most?) public schools are declining. Those with
> money are leaving, in droves, for private schools.
> As Vienna and Oakton get wealthier, as you have
> pointed out, they remove their kids from public
> schools. Those who don't get into TJ, go private
> because they know that the schools in FCPS range
> from crummy to very mediocre. FCPS staff, like
> public schools across the country, are killing the
> goose that laid their golden eggs with their
> wacky, leftist, dumbed down, programs. Parents
> who can afford a real education for their children
> do so.



This is interesting to me. I wonder--while there are a ton of private schools for younger children there really aren't that many private schools for high schoolers. Flint Hill is known to be weak in math/science, Madeira is only girls and I dont think that highly rated. Sidwell Friends is too far for many and so is Landon. Parochial schools in the area are ok, but they are not for everyone and certainly not super highly rated. So, where are all these newly wealthy sending their kids?

-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> > Madison is declining for the same reason that
> many
> > (most?) public schools are declining. Those
> with
> > money are leaving, in droves, for private
> schools.
> > As Vienna and Oakton get wealthier, as you
> have
> > pointed out, they remove their kids from public
> > schools. Those who don't get into TJ, go
> private
> > because they know that the schools in FCPS
> range
> > from crummy to very mediocre. FCPS staff, like
> > public schools across the country, are killing
> the
> > goose that laid their golden eggs with their
> > wacky, leftist, dumbed down, programs. Parents
> > who can afford a real education for their
> children
> > do so.

The continued existence of TJ, as a small and highly selective magnet in a county of over 1 million populated by many affluent and well-educated families, probably leads more families to place their kids in private schools than any "wacky, leftist, dumbed down" FCPS programs. When college admission directors make statements that they don't look at NoVa students from public schools other than TJ, parents get scared (even if Georgetown has never been a top choice for kids already in the DC metro area).

As one poster noted, the gap between TJ and Langley is larger than the gap between Langley and the lowest-performing Fairfax high schools. But, attacking TJ is off-limits because it is a sacred cow.

SS/SA, Episcopal,Potomac School all are private through 12th grade. 2 are in Alexandria and 1 is in Arlington.

Don't be dissin' duh TJ in front of Neen - her son went there, dontcha' know? In her not so humble opinion, if you can't go TJ, you'd better go private -all other FCPS schools are goin' ta hell in a hand basket. As she says, if you can't 'cut it' at TJ, you can't cut it anywhere.

Magnets Repel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> > > Madison is declining for the same reason that
> > many
> > > (most?) public schools are declining. Those
> > with
> > > money are leaving, in droves, for private
> > schools.
> > > As Vienna and Oakton get wealthier, as you
> > have
> > > pointed out, they remove their kids from
> public
> > > schools. Those who don't get into TJ, go
> > private
> > > because they know that the schools in FCPS
> > range
> > > from crummy to very mediocre. FCPS staff,
> like
> > > public schools across the country, are
> killing
> > the
> > > goose that laid their golden eggs with their
> > > wacky, leftist, dumbed down, programs.
> Parents
> > > who can afford a real education for their
> > children
> > > do so.
>
> The continued existence of TJ, as a small and
> highly selective magnet in a county of over 1
> million populated by many affluent and
> well-educated families, probably leads more
> families to place their kids in private schools
> than any "wacky, leftist, dumbed down" FCPS
> programs. When college admission directors make
> statements that they don't look at NoVa students
> from public schools other than TJ, parents get
> scared (even if Georgetown has never been a top
> choice for kids already in the DC metro area).
>
> As one poster noted, the gap between TJ and
> Langley is larger than the gap between Langley and
> the lowest-performing Fairfax high schools. But,
> attacking TJ is off-limits because it is a sacred
> cow.

Counselor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SS/SA, Episcopal,Potomac School all are private
> through 12th grade. 2 are in Alexandria and 1 is
> in Arlington.


What is SS/SA? What is Episcopal? Obviously a parochial school...how is it rated? I've heard ok things about Potomac. But, this still doesn't really answer the question about the suggested exodus from FCPS into private schools? Where are these kids going? I can't imagine some of the newly wealthy who want to leave FCPS are turning to the "so so" parochial schools in the area? They would want someplace better, more prestigious, more cache. Where are those places?? (Personally, I think the good private school options in this area are few and far between.)

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't be dissin' duh TJ in front of Neen - her son
> went there, dontcha' know? In her not so humble
> opinion, if you can't go TJ, you'd better go
> private -all other FCPS schools are goin' ta hell
> in a hand basket. As she says, if you can't 'cut
> it' at TJ, you can't cut it anywhere.
>
> I am not attacking TJ or TJ students. However, magnet schools like TJ are not typically found in affluent suburban districts such as FFX where there generally is (or was) a well-educated population with strong support for the public schools, but instead in urban areas like NY (Hunter College/Stuyvesant/Bronx Sci), SF (Lowell) or Boston (Boston Latin).

TJ was created in the mid-1980s as part of the county's marketing push to attract high-tech businesses, not because there was a significant perception at the time that high-performing students were ill-served. In general, math/science programs in FFX schools in the 1970s and 1980s were OK, if unven. High-achieving students at most FFX schools at the time generally could get enough AP credits in science/math/English and/or foreign languages to graduate from a top state or private university in three years, if desired.

It was also not uncommon at the time for many high schools to have 10-12 National Merit Scholars and dozens of Letter of Commendation winners; now 75-85% of the NMS scholars each year come from TJ.

TJ is an embedded part of the system today; it serves its students welland is, in fact, a magnet that does attract some families to the area and the schools. But its impact on the county high schools as a whole is largely ignored. Without TJ, would more Fairfax high schools "look and feel" like, say, Scarsdale High, New Trier High, or Newton North? If you want a basis for comparison, more students at schools such as Woodson, Lake Braddock and even Annandale and Stuart were admitted to top colleges and universities in the 1970s and early 1980s than graduating seniors at Langley this past spring.

Parents fight bitterly about having their kids assigned to South Lakes vs. Oakton or Madison, but the distinctions between those schools are nowhere near as pronounced as the distinctions between TJ and all the others. Neen supports the anti-RD effort, but her recent posts do suggest she thinks those involved are basically fighting over the scraps.

It wasn't a "democrat" educational bureaucracy at Gatehouse (or wherever they were housed at the time) that imposed this on the county; it was the same politicians that put Fairfax County ads in every airline in-flight magazine in the 1980s.

Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> What is SS/SA? What is Episcopal? Obviously a
> parochial school...how is it rated? I've heard ok
> things about Potomac. But, this still doesn't
> really answer the question about the suggested
> exodus from FCPS into private schools? Where are
> these kids going? I can't imagine some of the
> newly wealthy who want to leave FCPS are turning
> to the "so so" parochial schools in the area?
> They would want someplace better, more
> prestigious, more cache. Where are those places??
> (Personally, I think the good private school
> options in this area are few and far between.)

In my FFX neighborhood, the parents sending kids to private schools generally pick schools in DC or Maryland like Landon, Georgetown Prep and Gonzaga. It is a hike, but they find ways to coordinate with other parents, carpool, etc. Most of the VA schools are not a top choice and some that are more highly regarded have very small classes and limited seats.

Magnets Repel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I am not attacking TJ or TJ students. However,
> magnet schools like TJ are not typically found in
> affluent suburban districts such as FFX where
> there generally is (or was) a well-educated
> population with strong support for the public
> schools, but instead in urban areas like NY
> (Hunter College/Stuyvesant/Bronx Sci), SF (Lowell)
> or Boston (Boston Latin).
>
> TJ was created in the mid-1980s as part of the
> county's marketing push to attract high-tech
> businesses, not because there was a significant
> perception at the time that high-performing
> students were ill-served. In general,
> math/science programs in FFX schools in the 1970s
> and 1980s were OK, if unven. High-achieving
> students at most FFX schools at the time generally
> could get enough AP credits in
> science/math/English and/or foreign languages to
> graduate from a top state or private university in
> three years, if desired.
>
> It was also not uncommon at the time for many
> high schools to have 10-12 National Merit Scholars
> and dozens of Letter of Commendation winners; now
> 75-85% of the NMS scholars each year come from TJ.
>
>
> TJ is an embedded part of the system today; it
> serves its students welland is, in fact, a magnet
> that does attract some families to the area and
> the schools. But its impact on the county high
> schools as a whole is largely ignored. Without
> TJ, would more Fairfax high schools "look and
> feel" like, say, Scarsdale High, New Trier High,
> or Newton North? If you want a basis for
> comparison, more students at schools such as
> Woodson, Lake Braddock and even Annandale and
> Stuart were admitted to top colleges and
> universities in the 1970s and early 1980s than
> graduating seniors at Langley this past spring.
>
I'm a Newton North graduate. I can't speak for Westchester county schools. Boston suburbs Iinc. Newton) have their own school systems, their own town or city governments and most importantly our own tax rates and bases. Only the tiniest Boston suburbs share high schools and when they do share, the suburbs tend to be very similar demographically ie Lincoln-Sudbury, Acton-Boxborough, Concord-Carlisle. You would never see a Lexington-Waltham or a Belmont-Watertown High School.

A Newton family would never have to worry about getting redistricted to Watertown HS even if they are technically closer to WHS vs. NNHS. Within Newton a neighborhood might get redistricted from NNHS to NSHS or vice versa but we don't do that very often as our populations are very stable.

I've seen more kids from Northern Virginia attend boarding schools and private schools in DC or Maryland in recent years. Including some who are admitted to TJ, but whose parents think one of the private schools would be a better fit.

Catholic schools sometimes appeal to parents who aren't Catholic. One Jewish friend considered sending her son to St. Anselm's Abbey, and a Muslim friend considered sending her son to Gonzaga. And in Alexandria, I'm told that some Catholic schools have a lot of social cachet.

But overall, there aren't nearly enough spaces in local private schools for all the 8th grade students in Northern Virginia whose parents want to send them to private school. Getting admitted to the better ones for 9th grade is difficult.

questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I wonder--while there
> are a ton of private schools for younger children
> there really aren't that many private schools for
> high schoolers. Flint Hill is known to be weak in
> math/science, Madeira is only girls and I dont
> think that highly rated. Sidwell Friends is too
> far for many and so is Landon. Parochial schools
> in the area are ok, but they are not for everyone
> and certainly not super highly rated. So, where
> are all these newly wealthy sending their kids?

Does anyone know how the rising 9th graders will re-enroll for classes back in their original schools, when the West County RD is overturned in court on July 28th. I am sure that there are at least a few students who went ahead and enrolled in South Lakes and Oakton (for the Navy kids), if they could not pupil place out, or go private. It seems like there will be an administrative scramble to change bus routes, classes, teachers etc.

....no matter how much you wish it so.

If it happen (and I hope it does), there will be a scramble. But I bet the school system is already thinking about how they will react if they are overruled. The guidance counselors will be busy redoing schedules. The transportation folks will not be affected very much, since they can revert to last year's plan with minor adjustments.

The hardest part is deciding what to do with all the jewelry making kits SL bought in anticipation of the influx of kids.


Floris parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know how the rising 9th graders will
> re-enroll for classes back in their original
> schools, when the West County RD is overturned in
> court on July 28th. I am sure that there are at
> least a few students who went ahead and enrolled
> in South Lakes and Oakton (for the Navy kids), if
> they could not pupil place out, or go private. It
> seems like there will be an administrative
> scramble to change bus routes, classes, teachers
> etc.

I guess the staffs are already working on emergency plans IF (not when) the RD is overturned.

Has anyone seen any numbers of how many redistricted children are registered at their "new" schools? Do you think FCPS will allow the ninth graders to stay at South Lakes (or Navy students at Oakton) if they want to? Other than that, going back to the old bus routes is one of the easier tasks.

Staff might already be running some "what if" schedules. Since we are mostly talking about freshmen (other than MI), staff can assign them to regular or advanced English, biology, and social studies based on what they already signed up for. Staff can assign them to math based on what they did last year. If they took a music and/or a foreign language last year, the follow-on course can usually be predicted. PE is easy to assign. So most of the alternative scheduling could be running this week.

Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield, and the MI schools may even have "what if" plans to add teachers for the "returning" children; don't be surprised if those schools already are prepared to start hiring some additional staff next week.


Floris parent Wrote:
> Does anyone know how the rising 9th graders will
> re-enroll for classes back in their original
> schools, when the West County RD is overturned in
> court on July 28th. I am sure that there are at
> least a few students who went ahead and enrolled
> in South Lakes and Oakton (for the Navy kids), if
> they could not pupil place out, or go private. It
> seems like there will be an administrative
> scramble to change bus routes, classes, teachers
> etc.

Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Counselor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SS/SA, Episcopal,Potomac School all are private
> > through 12th grade. 2 are in Alexandria and 1
> is
> > in Arlington.
>
>
> What is SS/SA? What is Episcopal? Obviously a
> parochial school...how is it rated? I've heard ok
> things about Potomac. But, this still doesn't
> really answer the question about the suggested
> exodus from FCPS into private schools? Where are
> these kids going? I can't imagine some of the
> newly wealthy who want to leave FCPS are turning
> to the "so so" parochial schools in the area?
> They would want someplace better, more
> prestigious, more cache. Where are those places??
> (Personally, I think the good private school
> options in this area are few and far between.)

Lots of No.Virginians at Georgetown Prep, Visitation, NCS, Holton-Arms, Sidwell Friends, Gonzaga, St. Albans

For sure there will be a rush on "The Odyssey" Sparknotes when the fox mill kiddies are sent back to Oakton. Maybe the navy kids can make a deal.

Curious indeed. I wonder what the cat thinks, the cat who sees the SLHS issue as socioeconomics. From the LAT article: "Latino and Asian students came mostly from poor and working-class families.

(snip) Fidel Nava, a coordinator for English learners at Lincoln, said some Latino students say that Asians get higher grades simply because, well, they're Asian. "In a sense, they have come to believe that it's OK for Asians to be smart and not for Hispanics," said Nava, who immigrated from Mexico at 14. Nava, the only one of six siblings to go to college, said he was once like many of his students. His parents wanted the children to finish high school, but there also was an expectation that they get jobs and help the family. "A lot of my relatives don't see my job as a stressful job at all," Nava said. "If I tell them I'm tired, they say, 'Why? You're not doing any labor. You're not doing anything.' "

(snip) "In Latino families, being able to work to provide defines your manhood, your worthiness," said Min Zhou, a UCLA sociology professor who has studied working-class Korean and Chinese communities. Latino and Asian families in Lincoln Heights were essentially in the same socioeconomic boat, she said, but Asian immigrants were more likely to have been more affluent and had better education opportunities in their native countries."

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And another article that touches on some
> comments/feelings posted here:
> http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-lincol
> n16-2008jul16,0,3130880.story?page=1&track=rss

Sparkster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For sure there will be a rush on "The Odyssey"
> Sparknotes when the fox mill kiddies are sent back
> to Oakton. Maybe the navy kids can make a deal.


Sorry Sparknotes or Cliffnotes won't work here. The students have to read the book and find examples of POV, allusion, personification, metaphors, etc. They actually have to read the book to get this info out of it.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sparkster Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > For sure there will be a rush on "The Odyssey"
> > Sparknotes when the fox mill kiddies are sent
> back
> > to Oakton. Maybe the navy kids can make a deal.
>
>
> Sorry Sparknotes or Cliffnotes won't work here.
> The students have to read the book and find
> examples of POV, allusion, personification,
> metaphors, etc. They actually have to read the
> book to get this info out of it.

yeah, right, whatever.

Is there a School Board insider who can translate this into plain English

(1) Does it mean the SB/BOS are putting together a plan to close under-enrolled schools in 2009; and

(2) How does the SB/BOS reconcile this with its recent decision to push forward with the multi-million dollar SOCO middle school?


"At the joint Board of Supervisors/School Board meeting on July 18, 2008, the following resolution was presented and discussed:

A JOINT RESOLUTION TO UNDERTAKE A DETAILED REVIEW OF COUNTY LINES OF BUSINESS
AND SCHOOL PROGRAMS TO IDENTIFY OPPORTUNITIES FOR STREAMLINING, CONSOLIDATIONS, AND ELIMINATIONS


WHEREAS, the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and the Fairfax County School Board have a history of working cooperatively together on budget and financial issues; and,

WHEREAS, the FY 2010 budget will present significant challenges for Fairfax County and Fairfax County Public Schools, with a combined total deficit projected of over $430 million as a result of unprecedented declines in the residential real estate market ; and,

WHEREAS, the projected imbalance in the FY 2010 budget and minimal revenue growth in FY 2011 and FY 2012 will require further elimination, modification, reorganization, and/or reduction of County and School programs beyond those achieved for FY 2009, as well as other sustainable strategies to align County and School spending to available resources; and,

WHEREAS, the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and the Fairfax County School Board are proud of the nationally and internationally recognized high-caliber services and educational programming provided by their respective organizations and firmly believe that Fairfax County residents receive an excellent return on the investment of their tax dollars;

WHEREAS, it is the desire of the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and the Fairfax County School Board to preserve the high quality of life for Fairfax County residents and the outstanding educational opportunities for its students and to ensure that services are provided in the most effective, efficient, affordable, and customer friendly manner possible; and now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and the Fairfax County School Board will undertake a detailed review of County Lines of Business and School programs to identify multi-year opportunities for cost reduction and savings to address the projected deficits that include program delivery options and possible service consolidations and eliminations and,

RESOLVED FURTHER, both Boards will engage in a dialogue with the public and employees to secure suggestions and comments regarding the budget opportunities and alternatives for adjustment throughout the development of the FY 2010 budget; and,

RESOLVED FURTHER, the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and the Fairfax County School Board will review current joint and shared service functions and examine opportunities for further collaboration and consolidation for efficiencies; and

RESOLVED FURTHER, the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and the Fairfax County School Board are committed to sustaining our quality of life, managing the expectations of County residents and recognizing the economic realities of the foreseeable future; and

RESOLVED FURTHER, the Board of Supervisors and the Fairfax County School Board recognize that each must meet its proportionate share of the deficit reductions that will be required in FY 2010."

Imagine what would happen if CAPS prevailed in its lawsuit only to have some of the same neighborhoods affected once again if the SB decides to close schools and redistrict.

If you mean the predominant cultural tendencies particularly visible in citizens of the US trapped in a third or fourth generation of welfare, then yes, it is all about socioeconomics. Compare the work ethics and attitudes of recent poor immigrants with their poor US peers who have been trapped in our welfare culture, and tell me if you don't see a difference. As long as the latter are held to a different standard, we are doomed to repeat our mistakes over and over again.

Some of us are still trying to understand you. When you write about "socioeconomic issues" are you talking about "citizens of the US trapped in a third or fourth generation of welfare"?

By "poor US peers who have been trapped in our welfare culture," do you mean Blacks?


Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you mean the predominant cultural tendencies
> particularly visible in citizens of the US trapped
> in a third or fourth generation of welfare, then
> yes, it is all about socioeconomics. Compare the
> work ethics and attitudes of recent poor
> immigrants with their poor US peers who have been
> trapped in our welfare culture, and tell me if you
> don't see a difference. As long as the latter are
> held to a different standard, we are doomed to
> repeat our mistakes over and over again.

Re the LA Times article. I don't know how any article purporting to explore the causes of the Asian/Latino achievement gap (or for that matter, the White/Black or White Hispanic gap) could fail to even mention the significant differences in IQ between the relevant groups. That is the biggest cause and effect driver of all. Oh, wait. I forgot an important element. That kind of honest reporting would get you fired at the LA Times, a paper with such a jaundiced slant that it published an Onion article about Wyoming's governor - yes, the Onion - that typically very funny humor magazine devoted to parody - and passed it off as credible "news". When the editors were called on the carpet, they responded in their best the nation is either Hollywood or Mid-town Manhattan and nothing is really in between mode as, well, "it could have been true." Of course, how hard can one be on the Times? That kind of honesty would get you fired from the schools, too.

This is not to say, along the lines of Herrnstein and Murray, that we ought to be fatalistic towards those with lesser IQ's - far from it. Contrary to their conclusions, I think a rising tide lifts all boats. But really, politically incorrect as it sounds, IQ makes a difference. And this ought to be recognized, because it would help prevent adoption of silly fads. The dogma of racial equality helps explain the public schools' susceptibility to the latest educational craze (e.g. everday math) Nobody has ever been able to get blacks and Hispanics to consistently perform as well as Asians and whites on a large scale. And, since the obvious implication of this reality is unthinkable to many then it must be the schools' fault, right? What else could it be? This logic is then used by so-called reformers to justify implementing their pet obsessions.

And Magnets Repel has an excellent point about TJ - which, as I have suggested, is a fine school, but clearly not a be all and end all and has its own set of challenges. And it was borne from a sense of civic and business attraction. But the number one thing that Virginia could do to improve its schools - and it is a pipe dream - is to have smaller school districts. The problem with a big school district is that it's so big that it doesn't feel much competition from surrounding districts. For example, where I am from, the northern and western suburbs of Chicago are famous for quality public schools. The many small villages or towns compete with each other to have the best schools in order to have the highest property values and perceived quality of life. Think I am kidding? Don't think that those in Glen Ellyn - 20 miles to the west of the Loop - fail to constantly compare themselves to New Trier, 10 miles north of the city, and in turn, the Naperville and Palatine and Barrington schools and so on don't do just the same. Heck, a distant suburb like Crystal Lake - 50 miles from the Loop - feels and responds to the same competitive pressures. People have choices. And the small school districts are always in a war for good talent - whether it be principals or teachers. Again, a pipe dream for Virginia - but a much better model. And it shouldn't be sacrilege to mention this. Sports teams in suburban areas overachieve because of intense competition - it makes sense to have that same ethic apply to school districts and towns.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> citizens of the US trapped in a third or fourth generation of welfare

Demographers generally define a generation as covering 25 years.

Since welfare didn't exist until the 1930s and AFDC did arise until later, it is by definition impossible for there to be 3 or 4 generations of welfare receipients but keep perpetuating those tired old right wing stereotypes because they keep you from seeing reality and coming up with real solutions.

Try reading Worse than Slavery if you want to understand the historical experience of many poor men in the South. An experience carried on until the mid-1960s.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > citizens of the US trapped in a third or fourth
> generation of welfare
>
> Demographers generally define a generation as
> covering 25 years.
>
> Since welfare didn't exist until the 1930s and
> AFDC did arise until later, it is by definition
> impossible for there to be 3 or 4 generations of
> welfare receipients but keep perpetuating those
> tired old right wing stereotypes because they keep
> you from seeing reality and coming up with real
> solutions.
>
> Try reading Worse than Slavery if you want to
> understand the historical experience of many poor
> men in the South. An experience carried on until
> the mid-1960s.

Sadly, one of the problems is that some generations are much shorter than 25 years. Teen pregnancy and welfare often go together, and yes, there are multiple generations.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the significant differences in IQ between the relevant groups. That is the biggest
> cause and effect driver of all.

Did you ever post the peer reviewed studies on this? Hopefully you're not relying on the Bell Curve by Murray(?).

I seem to recall reading abstracts of studies that suggest when one controls for socio-economic status and educational levels of the parents, the gap disappears among the various ethnc groups.

I also recall reading some studies about intellectual achievement among persons from ethnic and socio-economic classes where there is no history or ethos of upward social mobility. E,g,, among the remainders or heirs of the peasant classes in some countries, there is little attention paid to being on time in the Western sense because nothing is gained or lost by being on time: their lot and station in life will be just as brutal, harsh and short as their parents regardless of what they do. Thus, nothing is to be gained in investing the time and energy in acquiring "school learnin'."

Such has been the experience of many southern blacks well into the 60s throughout the South as Worse than Slavery describes and for many Scot-Irish as Born Fighting also describes for that ethnic group. The children of the kids who experienced those practices are just getting to high school now.

Therefore, I'm not prepared to accept an inherent difference in IQ among ethnic groups just yet.

Especially since the same claims were made 100 years ago about the immigrants coming from Eastern and Southern Europe when the IQ test was first introduced. Obviously nobody makes those claims today.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Demographers generally define a generation as
> covering 25 years.
>
> Since welfare didn't exist until the 1930s and
> AFDC did arise until later, it is by definition
> impossible for there to be 3 or 4 generations of
> welfare receipients but keep perpetuating those
> tired old right wing stereotypes because they keep
> you from seeing reality and coming up with real
> solutions.
>
Better check your math. If welfare started in say 1935, then 1st gen = 1935, 2nd gen = 1960, 3rd gen = 1985, 4th gen = 2010, and earlier generations are typically shorter generations, closer to 20 years than 25 years

not right wing, but right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sadly, one of the problems is that some generations are much shorter than 25 years. Teen pregnancy and welfare often go together, and yes, there are multiple generations.< <

Until the Feds took over welfare in the 60s, many states and local governments welfare offices actively discriminated against blacks. If you were black, you didn't get it, even if you qualified. Only with the advent of the Federal AFDC program did that pervasive discrimination end.

Even if you assume successive generations of teenage pregnancies, which were a small percentage of welfare rolls, you can't get to 3-4 generations of welfare families.

This assertion of 3-4 generations of welfare families is an urban myth.

Most welfare families were white mothers in their 20s and 30s who were recently abandoned by their husband and had not been in the workforce for 5-10 years. The average stay on welfare was less than 4 years. Now its even less after the Clinton welfare reforms.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Better check your math. If welfare started in say 1935, then 1st gen = 1935, 2nd gen = 1960, 3rd gen = 1985, 4th gen = 2010, and earlier generations are typically shorter generations, closer to 20 years than 25 years< <

Actually demographers have been using 25 years as then length of a generations since the time of Malthus, i.e., 1800.

Since its still only 2008, the 4th generation has not started yet even by your calculation.

But keep believing that urban myth. It make it so much easier to demonize those not as fortunate as you.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

YOUR WORDS:
>
> .. it is by definition impossible for there to be
> 3 or 4 generations of welfare receipients ..
>

So in what year pray tell will a 3rd generation be possible? If you're going to try to refute another poster's point, at least check your data before putting foot in mouth.

This Staff language is included in some of the agenda materials for tomorrow's SB meeting to discuss the Coppermine study - not exactly reassuring that the Staff knows what it is doing.

"Attached is our matrix using our best interpretation of the criteria given to us by the School Board last Friday. It appears that the scoring is very consistent with our recommendation with a couple of exceptions for Coppermine. Based upon this matrix, it would appear that Fox Mill should be included. We are not recommending it be included in the study even though is is projected to be overcrowded. Two reasons, one is that the projected overcrowding is not great (about 50 students over in the out-years) and two, that community was particularly impacted by last fall's boundary study.
We did not try to weight our scoring. I am not certain if we were supposed to have done so. With so little time to complete this work, we were not able to be too sophisticated.

Our recommendation for the scope of the boundary study remains the same. We acknowledge that this scoring might suggest changes. We look forward to guidance from the School Board."

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Relevant article in NY Times today:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/magazine/20integ
> ration-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=education

Interesting article, thanks for posting the link.

It seems my idea for closing South Lakes would have been best. From this article it appears the best thing to do is spread low income students around among the better schools. What a shame they spent our money renovating SL when the students would have benefited by closing the school and spreading the students among the nearby schools. We could have saved money on renovation, saved money on running South Lakes, and saved money on redistricting, AND, students would have benefited. Spread over 4 years, all of SL could have been absorbed by surrounding schools. That would have been a win-win-win for all students and the taxpaying public.

Magnets Repel Wrote:
-.
>
> The continued existence of TJ, as a small and
> highly selective magnet in a county of over 1
> million populated by many affluent and
> well-educated families, probably leads more
> families to place their kids in private schools
> than any "wacky, leftist, dumbed down" FCPS
> programs. When college admission directors make
> statements that they don't look at NoVa students
> from public schools other than TJ, parents get
> scared (even if Georgetown has never been a top
> choice for kids already in the DC metro area).
>
> As one poster noted, the gap between TJ and
> Langley is larger than the gap between Langley and
> the lowest-performing Fairfax high schools. But,
> attacking TJ is off-limits because it is a sacred
> cow.

Attack away. And let us know how spreading out those 450 students each year, among our 24 high schools will improve anything. Don't forget that most of those students would return to the top ranked high schools. Tell us how that would help the other, mediocre students in their mediocre schools, get accepted at better colleges.

Thanks.

Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Counselor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SS/SA, Episcopal,Potomac School all are private
> > through 12th grade. 2 are in Alexandria and 1
> is
> > in Arlington.
>
>
> What is SS/SA? What is Episcopal? Obviously a
> parochial school...how is it rated? I've heard ok
> things about Potomac. But, this still doesn't
> really answer the question about the suggested
> exodus from FCPS into private schools? Where are
> these kids going? I can't imagine some of the
> newly wealthy who want to leave FCPS are turning
> to the "so so" parochial schools in the area?
> They would want someplace better, more
> prestigious, more cache. Where are those places??
> (Personally, I think the good private school
> options in this area are few and far between.)

Episcopal is a private school in Alexandria:
http://www.episcopalhighschool.org/

Other students, both elementary level and high school are attending Flint Hill, as well as the growing number of Catholic schools. At the elementary level, people like Edlin, Langley (called Little Langley), and Nysmith. But that's just my end of the county, I am sure there are other private schools in other parts of the county.

For high school students often go to DC and Maryland private schools and some to boarding schools, in Virginia, Maryland, and beyond. I haven't ever known a parent who wanted to place a child in a private school but unable to find an available space. Like any other market, where there is a demand, supply appears. Flint Hill is a good example, it's grown by leaps and bounds over the last 10 years. Ditto for Nysmith. And Home Schooling too. As our public schools continue to decline, but incomes continuing to rise for the most of the county, we can expect there to be more private schools in coming years and more home schooling.

Currently about 14% of students in the US attend private school or home school with the number increasing each year. Of course the percentage is greater in higher income areas like FC.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Better check your math. If welfare started in
> say 1935, then 1st gen = 1935, 2nd gen = 1960, 3rd
> gen = 1985, 4th gen = 2010, and earlier
> generations are typically shorter generations,
> closer to 20 years than 25 years< <
>
> Actually demographers have been using 25 years as
> then length of a generations since the time of
> Malthus, i.e., 1800.
>
> Since its still only 2008, the 4th generation has
> not started yet even by your calculation.
>
> But keep believing that urban myth. It make it so
> much easier to demonize those not as fortunate as
> you.

Thomas, people who are raised on welfare do not wait until age 25 to give birth, as I am sure you are aware. Most begin motherhood well before age 20.

I once worked with a 28 year old grandmother on welfare, with a daughter also on assistance and a baby in foster care. The great grandmother was 45 and also on public assistance. Yes, a great grandmother at age 45. While this was an extreme case, 3 or 4 generations of welfare recipients was/is not unusual. It's how they were raised and they had little ability to break the cycle. Of course many do break out, but many women do not. They simply repeat the cycle they grew up with. Very sad.

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just found out from a guidance counselor that
> the GPA is calculated with the .5 bump at the end
> of the year when the course is taken, and
> recalculated if for some reason the student
> doesn't take the AP or IB exam.

True. FCPS decided a few years ago that students can't get the extra .5 if they don't take the exams.

BTW, ALL grades are calculated for each course at the end of the year. That's what goes onto the child's transcript.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Magnets Repel Wrote:
> -.
> >
> > The continued existence of TJ, as a small and
> > highly selective magnet in a county of over 1
> > million populated by many affluent and
> > well-educated families, probably leads more
> > families to place their kids in private schools
> > than any "wacky, leftist, dumbed down" FCPS
> > programs. When college admission directors
> make
> > statements that they don't look at NoVa
> students
> > from public schools other than TJ, parents get
> > scared (even if Georgetown has never been a top
> > choice for kids already in the DC metro area).
>
> >
> > As one poster noted, the gap between TJ and
> > Langley is larger than the gap between Langley
> and
> > the lowest-performing Fairfax high schools.
> But,
> > attacking TJ is off-limits because it is a
> sacred
> > cow.
>
> Attack away. And let us know how spreading out
> those 450 students each year, among our 24 high
> schools will improve anything. Don't forget that
> most of those students would return to the top
> ranked high schools. Tell us how that would help
> the other, mediocre students in their mediocre
> schools, get accepted at better colleges.
>
> Thanks.

Sorry for the apostasy - though your response surely was predictable.

Here's a fact: No one would have called all but one of the county's high schools mediocre pre-TJ. And, having seen where graduating seniors at Langley are matriculating this fall, I am quite confident that graduating seniors at, say, Stuart or Woodson in the late 70s attended a more selective group of colleges and universities than the seniors who just graduated from Langley this spring. The question is whether having the top students at their base schools, not to mention more of the top teachers teaching at those schools and more of those students' parents involved at those schools, would improve the performance of those schools as a whole without hurting the top students.

Maybe the answer is no - but then, pre-TJ, no one called all but one of the county's high schools "mediocre" - and claimed to mean it. It does raise questions as to whether we're getting good value for our tax dollars if so few students end up at schools that are not mediocre.

> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Magnets Repel Wrote:
> > -.
> > >
> > > The continued existence of TJ, as a small and
> > > highly selective magnet in a county of over 1
> > > million populated by many affluent and
> > > well-educated families, probably leads more
> > > families to place their kids in private
> schools
> > > than any "wacky, leftist, dumbed down" FCPS
> > > programs...

Quantum has summed up what it is like in other areas surrounding major cities. TJ is a sacred cow and was started when technology was new and wonderful plus in an era when magnets were booming as a way to fill buildings.

TJ is supposed to be a regional Governor's School managed by FCPS. Most students are from FX. It's not like college ROTC with mandated service or mandated majoring in engineering.


It does have some special ed expenses but doesn't have the programs tailored for low socio economic families. If a TJ student was at a AP base like Woodson or Langley the cost would be lower just from no extra bussing, no 8th period, no special labs. Who pays for those labs? Do they have alumni and private sector fund raising?

Is FCPS sending the wrong message to students? Not "smart" enough for TJ means not good enough to be in math-science-tech as a future college major or career?

Other than bulking up on bragging stats for merit Scholars and contests does this county need TJ?

How many TJ students take the most advanced math and science courses? Why not run it like the academies or Montgomery Blair?

I do know students who went onto major in engineering and sciences from base schools so the need for TJ is perplexing in 2008.

Thomas More,

I have been enjoying your well-written posts, which, along with quantum's posts, make this thread worth reading while we wait to hear what the judge hase to say.

Could you please elaborate on what you were trying to communicate when you wrote in part:

"I also recall reading some studies about intellectual achievement among persons from ethnic and socio-economic classes where there is no history or ethos of upward social mobility. E,g,, among the remainders or heirs of the peasant classes in some countries, ... their lot and station in life will be just as brutal, harsh and short as their parents regardless of what they do. Thus, nothing is to be gained in investing the time and energy in acquiring 'school learnin'.' Such has been the experience ... for many Scot-Irish as Born Fighting also describes for that ethnic group. The children of the kids who experienced those practices are just getting to high school now."

Are you talking about the stereotype redneck hillbillies from the Ozarks? Wikipedia says the Scots Irish make up 1.8% of the US population and "are found primarily in Appalachia." It also says they are predominantly Presbyterian and Baptist (as opposed to the Irish Catholics who came in huge numbers in the nineteenth century). Wikipedia lists Presidents Chester Alan Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Bill Clinton, Ulysses Simpson Grant, Benjamin Harrison, Andrew Jackson, Andrew Johnson, William McKinley, Richard Milhous Nixon, James Knox Polk, Theodore Roosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson as Scots-Irish.

Wikipedia continues, "The Scotch-Irish soon became the dominant culture of the Appalachians from Pennsylvania to Georgia. Author (and U.S. Senator) Jim Webb puts forth a thesis in his book Born Fighting to suggest that the character traits he ascribes to the Scots-Irish such as loyalty to kin, extreme mistrust of governmental authority and legal strictures, and a propensity to bear arms and to use them, helped shape the American identity."

By whatever criteria you use, this group seems to have long been a core part of "mainstream America," so what do you mean by, "The children of the kids who experienced those practices are just getting to high school now"?

How many TJ graduates to on to major in math and science in college?

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Magnets Repel Wrote:
> > > -.
> > > >
> > > > The continued existence of TJ, as a small
> and
> > > > highly selective magnet in a county of over
> 1
> > > > million populated by many affluent and
> > > > well-educated families, probably leads more
> > > > families to place their kids in private
> > schools
> > > > than any "wacky, leftist, dumbed down" FCPS
> > > > programs...
>
> Quantum has summed up what it is like in other
> areas surrounding major cities. TJ is a sacred
> cow and was started when technology was new and
> wonderful plus in an era when magnets were booming
> as a way to fill buildings.
>
> TJ is supposed to be a regional Governor's School
> managed by FCPS. Most students are from FX. It's
> not like college ROTC with mandated service or
> mandated majoring in engineering.
>
>
> It does have some special ed expenses but doesn't
> have the programs tailored for low socio economic
> families. If a TJ student was at a AP base like
> Woodson or Langley the cost would be lower just
> from no extra bussing, no 8th period, no special
> labs. Who pays for those labs? Do they have
> alumni and private sector fund raising?
>
> Is FCPS sending the wrong message to students?
> Not "smart" enough for TJ means not good enough to
> be in math-science-tech as a future college major
> or career?
>
> Other than bulking up on bragging stats for merit
> Scholars and contests does this county need TJ?
>
> How many TJ students take the most advanced math
> and science courses? Why not run it like the
> academies or Montgomery Blair?
>
> I do know students who went onto major in
> engineering and sciences from base schools so the
> need for TJ is perplexing in 2008.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum has summed up what it is like in other
> areas surrounding major cities. TJ is a sacred
> cow and was started when technology was new and
> wonderful plus in an era when magnets were booming
> as a way to fill buildings.
>
> TJ is supposed to be a regional Governor's School
> managed by FCPS. Most students are from FX. It's
> not like college ROTC with mandated service or
> mandated majoring in engineering.
>
>
> It does have some special ed expenses but doesn't
> have the programs tailored for low socio economic
> families. If a TJ student was at a AP base like
> Woodson or Langley the cost would be lower just
> from no extra bussing, no 8th period, no special
> labs. Who pays for those labs? Do they have
> alumni and private sector fund raising?
>
> Is FCPS sending the wrong message to students?
> Not "smart" enough for TJ means not good enough to
> be in math-science-tech as a future college major
> or career?
>
> Other than bulking up on bragging stats for merit
> Scholars and contests does this county need TJ?
>
> How many TJ students take the most advanced math
> and science courses? Why not run it like the
> academies or Montgomery Blair?
>
> I do know students who went onto major in
> engineering and sciences from base schools so the
> need for TJ is perplexing in 2008.

Exactly.

What would the schools look like in the future if:

1. TJ was closed;

2. AP was reinstituted in place of IB at all county high schools;

3. Rational attendance boundaries were drawn - no attendance "islands," "archipelagos," etc were permitted; and

4. Excellence was expected - and demanded - across the board.

Magnets Repel Wrote:

>
> What would the schools look like in the future
> if:
>
> 1. TJ was closed;
>
> 2. AP was reinstituted in place of IB at all
> county high schools;
>
> 3. Rational attendance boundaries were drawn - no
> attendance "islands," "archipelagos," etc were
> permitted; and
>
> 4. Excellence was expected - and demanded -
> across the board.



Complete chaos for years!

just focus on no 4,

After this RD fiasco, the SB needs to just quit doing RD's and major structural changes for a few years and focus on fixing the schools with problems

Families with kids are just fed up with all the fear and uncertainty that RD causes

It was clear from the public meetings that the only people who wanted the RD were SLHS and the SB. The vast majority of attendees were strongly and vocally against the RD.

The public reaction to even larger changes would be even more divisive

There's just no mandate from parents for the SB to undertake more big RD's or substantial changes - and no trust that they could execute fairly or effectively

Basically, they blew it with the RD.

chaos for years Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Magnets Repel Wrote:
>
> >
> > What would the schools look like in the future
> > if:
> >
> > 1. TJ was closed;
> >
> > 2. AP was reinstituted in place of IB at all
> > county high schools;
> >
> > 3. Rational attendance boundaries were drawn -
> no
> > attendance "islands," "archipelagos," etc were
> > permitted; and
> >
> > 4. Excellence was expected - and demanded -
> > across the board.
>
>
>
> Complete chaos for years!
>
> just focus on no 4,
>
> After this RD fiasco, the SB needs to just quit
> doing RD's and major structural changes for a few
> years and focus on fixing the schools with
> problems
>
> Families with kids are just fed up with all the
> fear and uncertainty that RD causes
>
> It was clear from the public meetings that the
> only people who wanted the RD were SLHS and the
> SB. The vast majority of attendees were strongly
> and vocally against the RD.
>
> The public reaction to even larger changes would
> be even more divisive
>
> There's just no mandate from parents for the SB to
> undertake more big RD's or substantial changes -
> and no trust that they could execute fairly or
> effectively
>
> Basically, they blew it with the RD.

You seem to operate on the assumption that, if Madison Island were free to return to further-away Wolftrap, Thoreau and Madison, order would be restored to the universe and your children could then attend the "mediocre" (per Neen) schools that you prefer. The only remaining issue would be for the "schools with problems" to fix themselves - on their own.

If you read the NYT article, you know that is not going to happen.

And, even if you get what you want in the short term, this school system is still on the verge of significant change, regardless of what happens with the CAPS lawsuit. The SB/BOS will be faced with some tough budgetary decisions very soon. If South Lakes were closed, Madison would look quite different than it does today. If Marshall were closed, Madison Island (oops, Madison North) gets sent right back to South Lakes. You better prepare yourself for a bumpy ride.

Just about everyone agrees "they blew it with the RD". If they didn't make some sort of mistake, why didn't the judge throw out the case on day one?

Someone (I forget who) says some universities only consider TJ grads. If so, close it. Why should students at the other 24 high schools be shut out of the running for ANY college based on a selection process that occurs before the mid point of eighth grade?

Neen suggests closing Marshall and says FCPS should have closed South Lakes instead of renovating it, in both cases spreading out current students among existing schools. Using Neen's own system, TJ can be closed instead of renovated.
----------------------------
chaos for years Wrote:
> Magnets Repel Wrote: "What would the schools look like in the future if: 1. TJ was closed..."

> After this RD fiasco, the SB needs to just quit
> doing RD's and major structural changes for a few
> years and focus on fixing the schools with
> problems (snip) they blew it with the RD.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Magnets Repel Wrote:
> -.
> >
> > The continued existence of TJ, as a small and
> > highly selective magnet in a county of over 1
> > million populated by many affluent and
> > well-educated families, probably leads more
> > families to place their kids in private schools
> > than any "wacky, leftist, dumbed down" FCPS
> > programs. When college admission directors
> make
> > statements that they don't look at NoVa
> students
> > from public schools other than TJ, parents get
> > scared (even if Georgetown has never been a top
> > choice for kids already in the DC metro area).
>
> >
> > As one poster noted, the gap between TJ and
> > Langley is larger than the gap between Langley
> and
> > the lowest-performing Fairfax high schools.
> But,
> > attacking TJ is off-limits because it is a
> sacred
> > cow.
>
> Attack away. And let us know how spreading out
> those 450 students each year, among our 24 high
> schools will improve anything. Don't forget that
> most of those students would return to the top
> ranked high schools. Tell us how that would help
> the other, mediocre students in their mediocre
> schools, get accepted at better colleges.
>
> Thanks.


Not true. Last year 54 students pupil placed from SL to TJ last year...that's 54 students back at SL if TJ closed. Not advocating, just commenting.

It makes me laugh to think those opposed to the 2007 redistricting view Neen as one of their own. She thinks they are all mediocre - both their children and the schools they want to attend.

What's worse - the people who want your children too much or those ready to write them off as mediocre?

I suspect that, if Neen's children are as elitist as she is, they want nothing to do with her. She is one nasty palindrome!!

The children aren't mediocre. The schools are.

The point is very simple -- there has been a real deterioration in the quality in our schools over the past 10 yrs. Even teachers have commented on it.

Mediocre Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It makes me laugh to think those opposed to the
> 2007 redistricting view Neen as one of their own.
> She thinks they are all mediocre - both their
> children and the schools they want to attend.
>
> What's worse - the people who want your children
> too much or those ready to write them off as
> mediocre?
>
> I suspect that, if Neen's children are as elitist
> as she is, they want nothing to do with her. She
> is one nasty palindrome!!

Great idea, Neen. I'd love to hear the hue and cry coming from your neck of the (Vienna) woods if the County proposed busing students from Reston to Madison. Now that would be entertaining.

Neen Wrote:

> It seems my idea for closing South Lakes would
> have been best. From this article it appears the
> best thing to do is spread low income students
> around among the better schools. What a shame
> they spent our money renovating SL when the
> students would have benefited by closing the
> school and spreading the students among the nearby
> schools. We could have saved money on renovation,
> saved money on running South Lakes, and saved
> money on redistricting, AND, students would have
> benefited. Spread over 4 years, all of SL could
> have been absorbed by surrounding schools. That
> would have been a win-win-win for all students and
> the taxpaying public.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great idea, Neen. I'd love to hear the hue and
> cry coming from your neck of the (Vienna) woods if
> the County proposed busing students from Reston to
> Madison. Now that would be entertaining.
>
The irony is that the Louisville school district described in the NYT article was striving to find a way to maintain a socio-economic balance similar to that that currently exists at South Lakes.

You can argue that either way: why was there a need to redistrict to South Lakes or, conversely, why should South Lakes students should be sent to other schools?

TM, please elaborate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > By whatever criteria you use, this group seems to have long been a core part of "mainstream America," so what do you mean by, "The children of the kids who experienced those practices are just getting to high school now"?< <

Thank you for your kind words.

Webb and I would respectfully disagree with the author of the Wikipedia entry and I'm afraid I will not do his analysis justice in a short posting. Read Born Fighting to get the full treatment.

What Webb makes clear is that the Scot Irish make up a considerable segment of the U.S. population that have not seen educational achievement as a means to improve their station in life.

Webb laments the low rate of college graduates among his people despite the Scots Irish presence in the U.S. dating back to 1702 whereas later arriving groups whether its the Catholic Irish, Italians or Poles or the German, Russian or Polish Jews have approached and surpassed the college graduation rates of Episcopalians, Unitarians (successors to the Pilgrims), Hudson Valley Dutch and Pa. Duetsch (sp?) whose ancestors have been in the US as long as the Scot Irish.

He also ascribes to his kinfolk not a little of the anti-intellectualism that sometimes shows itself in America's culture.

Webb sees this worldview starting to breakdown among his kinfolk within the last quarter century but only starting.

Webb sees great parallels between the experience of blacks in America and Scot-Irish in the America.

Were the Scot-Irish enslaved on northern plantations?

Mary Ellen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many TJ graduates to on to major in math and
> science in college?

TJ won't track that information, or won't admit to tracking it, for several reasons. First, they know that they would learn that students majoring in engineering, hard science, and math, are more likely to be Asian and white boys. FCPS wants TJ to be close to half girls although girls are much less likely to take the most difficult science and math courses at TJ and less likely to major in engineering, math and science in college. Although there are some girls who major in biology, bio chem, or some other bio science in college. It is rare that girls major in physics, math, or engineering.

Race is another factor. FCPS does not want to learn that the Blacks at TJ are not as likely as Asians and Whites to major in those subjects in college. Such information would not support their affirmative action goals.

>>>Excellence was expected - and demanded - across the board.<<<

How would that happen? What would be the motivation for such a sea change? What would happen to those who refused to perform? What would happen to all those students who won't, or can't, meet the demands?

Quantum,
You raise a good point about the lack of competition. Few monopolies improve, they have no incentive to improve. Public schools are no different. They don't improve because they have no incentive and no competition because the majority of people have had no choice. Like the old Lilly Tomlin phone company skit "We don't care, we don't have to, we're the public school system". Take it, or leave it, you have no choice.

I understand why FCPS has gone down hill over the last few decades. Why wouldn't it? Bureaucracies exist to serve their employees, not the public who pay their bills. It's so much easier to dumb down everything, with no real incentive to do anything else. It's not as if the public is going to stop giving FCPS more money every year. It's not as if people have a choice and can choose to go to another school system. People are stuck paying the bills and getting whatever FCPS chooses to give them.

Playa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Were the Scot-Irish enslaved on northern
> plantations?

Nope. But then neither were any Blacks alive today. The point is the culture. Today's Blacks have a culture that doesn't work very well.

Blacks after the Civil War wanted to be married and they highly valued families.

In 1950, less than 20% of Blacks were born into homes without fathers. After welfare, and all the other 'help' doled out to Blacks, that percentage is 70%. We have ruined the Black community and the Black family, with all of our 'help'. Similar help is fast eroding public schools. If the 'help' continues we can expect that Blacks will remain on the bottom as every immigrant group passes them by, without government 'help'.

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great idea, Neen. I'd love to hear the hue and
> cry coming from your neck of the (Vienna) woods if
> the County proposed busing students from Reston to
> Madison. Now that would be entertaining.
>
Duh. That's exactly what I am advocating. I've posted many times that SL should have been closed and the students sent to the closest schools, to Madison, Oakton, Herndon, Westfield and Chantilly for AP. Those students who want IB could accommodated at Marshall.

Didn't The University teach you to read?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 12:49AM by Neen.

Mediocre Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It makes me laugh to think those opposed to the
> 2007 redistricting view Neen as one of their own.
> She thinks they are all mediocre - both their
> children and the schools they want to attend.
>
> What's worse - the people who want your children
> too much or those ready to write them off as
> mediocre?
>
> I suspect that, if Neen's children are as elitist
> as she is, they want nothing to do with her. She
> is one nasty palindrome!!

You would be totally wrong. My children just spent the evening with me, having a blast. Not unusual around here.

You sound rather bitter. Bless your heart, I hope you feel better.

There is nothing mediocre about the children of Fairfax county. Like their parents, they are smart, well educated, and successful, despite their mediocre schools, and because of their parents.

It's the SCHOOLS that are mediocre, not the STUDENTS in them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 12:53AM by Neen.

Herndon mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The children aren't mediocre. The schools are.
>
> The point is very simple -- there has been a real
> deterioration in the quality in our schools over
> the past 10 yrs. Even teachers have commented on
> it.

Such a simple idea, mediocre schools, not mediocre people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 01:09AM by Neen.

less chaos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just about everyone agrees "they blew it with the
> RD". If they didn't make some sort of mistake, why
> didn't the judge throw out the case on day one?
>
> Someone (I forget who) says some universities only
> consider TJ grads. If so, close it. Why should
> students at the other 24 high schools be shut out
> of the running for ANY college based on a
> selection process that occurs before the mid point
> of eighth grade?
>
> Neen suggests closing Marshall and says FCPS
> should have closed South Lakes instead of
> renovating it, in both cases spreading out current
> students among existing schools. Using Neen's own
> system, TJ can be closed instead of renovated.
> ----------------------------

One HUGE difference, TJ is not under enrolled, it's over crowded with 2,300 students each year who want to go and cannot get into TJ.

I advocate closing SL because it was drastically under enrolled and no one was breaking down the doors to get in. Quite a difference from TJ, where nearly 3,000 students try every year to get INTO the school.

No one has to force anyone to go to TJ, even with its ancient facilities.

If TJ was closed tomorrow, at least half of those students would head straight to private school. South Lakes would be lucky to get back 15 of the 54 who go to TJ. How much difference would those 15 make to South Lakes? How much difference would it make if ALL 54 came back? For those of you who are not TJ material, that's fewer than 14 students per grade. I hardly think that would make any significant difference at South Lakes.

Look, Gibson and his merry band of SLPTA wanted the 11 students from Madison Island. So 54 students from TJ would make a huge difference.

Where do you find the numbers of how many students are at TJ from each high school?





Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> less chaos Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just about everyone agrees "they blew it with
> the
> > RD". If they didn't make some sort of mistake,
> why
> > didn't the judge throw out the case on day one?
>
> >
> > Someone (I forget who) says some universities
> only
> > consider TJ grads. If so, close it. Why should
> > students at the other 24 high schools be shut
> out
> > of the running for ANY college based on a
> > selection process that occurs before the mid
> point
> > of eighth grade?
> >
> > Neen suggests closing Marshall and says FCPS
> > should have closed South Lakes instead of
> > renovating it, in both cases spreading out
> current
> > students among existing schools. Using Neen's
> own
> > system, TJ can be closed instead of renovated.
> > ----------------------------
>
> One HUGE difference, TJ is not under enrolled,
> it's over crowded with 2,300 students each year
> who want to go and cannot get into TJ.
>
> I advocate closing SL because it was drastically
> under enrolled and no one was breaking down the
> doors to get in. Quite a difference from TJ,
> where nearly 3,000 students try every year to get
> INTO the school.
>
> No one has to force anyone to go to TJ, even with
> its ancient facilities.
>
> If TJ was closed tomorrow, at least half of those
> students would head straight to private school.
> South Lakes would be lucky to get back 15 of the
> 54 who go to TJ. How much difference would those
> 15 make to South Lakes? How much difference would
> it make if ALL 54 came back? For those of you who
> are not TJ material, that's fewer than 14 students
> per grade. I hardly think that would make any
> significant difference at South Lakes.

Interesting concept. Moving students to higher performing schools. That is exactly what I read in a study the other day. Instead of trying to move students into low performing schools, students from the low performing schold should be moved into higher performing schools.

Does anyone know what percent of students in Fairfax County attend private schools? Are that data collected?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Great idea, Neen. I'd love to hear the hue and
> > cry coming from your neck of the (Vienna) woods
> if
> > the County proposed busing students from Reston
> to
> > Madison. Now that would be entertaining.
> >
> Duh. That's exactly what I am advocating. I've
> posted many times that SL should have been closed
> and the students sent to the closest schools, to
> Madison, Oakton, Herndon, Westfield and Chantilly
> for AP. Those students who want IB could
> accommodated at Marshall.
>
> Didn't The University teach you to read?

Some advanced classes and activities can only exist in a school like TJ.

FCPS high schools - including TJ - seem to have a general rule that at least when it comes to advanced classes, they will cancel the class unless there are over 20 students who sign up and can fit the class into their schedule. At TJ, over 20 students every year who take differential equations, because they took AP Calculus BC in 9th or 10th grade, and multivariable calculus and linear algebra in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign up for organic chemistry, because they took AP Chemistry in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign up for computational physics, because they excelled in AP Physics C during 10th or 11th grade, and also have strong computer programming skills. Enough sign up for artificial intelligence, because they took AP Computer Science AB in 10th or 11th grade.

If TJ were closed, these students would be dispersed among two dozen high schools, none of which would offer these courses. Some FCPS base high schools wouldn't even offer all the prerequisites to these classes, because there wouldn't be 20 students in the building who wanted to take them.

The same problem exists when it comes to extracurricular activities. The academic clubs/teams are run by the top students at TJ. These students know more about their subject than most HS teachers, and many college students majoring in those subjects. The clubs exist only because there are over a dozen (and sometimes over 100) students who voluntarily spend their time going above and beyond the already tough TJ courses in those areas. If TJ were closed, no FCPS high school would have enough students to justify the existence of these clubs.

In the last half a dozen years, TJ students who attended these academic team practices ended up not only making the US Teams in these subjects, but also have been among the four students chosen to represent the US in the international competitions, and then won gold medals. Some start doing graduate-level science research when they are 16. This couldn't happen without a TJ. There are not enough kids like this in any single pyramid, especially not of the caliber needed for students to instruct other students in college-level material. Dispersing these students among two dozen neighborhood high schools would ensure that they all learned much less during high school.

Relatively few TJ kids make national Olympiad teams in math, science and computer programming. But, for every TJ student who makes one of these teams, dozens more take super-advanced classes and attend related academic clubs/teams.

Admittedly, perhaps a quarter of all TJ students do not voluntarily take advanced STEM classes or participate in any co-curricular activities that are not offered in the normal base high school. They take AP Calculus AB in 11th or 12th grade. They struggle with the tougher required TJ classes in math, science and computer programming. They participate in sports, student government, or other activities that are found in every high school. These students probably would be fine - perhaps better off - in their neighborhood high schools. But most TJ students wouldn't be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 08:17AM by APorIBMom.

Thursday, June 26, 2008

Fairfax County School Board Votes To Build South County Middle School

The Fairfax County School Board has voted to move forward on the proposed South County Middle School project and has directed Superintendent Jack D. Dale to investigate the possibility of exchanging the currently designated property for other county or Fairfax County Park Authority property directly adjacent to the current South County Secondary School site for construction of the new middle school. Building the middle school adjacent to the current South County Secondary School would enable both schools to share the same athletic fields and, ultimately, reduce the cost of the new school.

The School Board also accepted $5 million for FY 2009 and $5 million for FY 2010 from the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors, approved for the purpose of building a middle school in the South County area. Those funds will be added to $2 million previously allocated by the School Board. The Superintendent was also directed to investigate sources of additional new funding or financing, which could include bridge financing or public-private partnerships, to cover the cost of the new school.

Dan Storck, School Board chairman and Mount Vernon District representative, thanked Board and community members for their support and said, “I am very pleased that the Board has approved the building of the long-sought-after middle school in the South County community. Since South County is one of the fastest growing areas of Fairfax County and BRAC (the Defense Department’s Base Realignment and Closure Commission) is expected to bring many more students to this area, this school will make a real difference in meeting the educational needs of this community and its students.”

The School Board motion specified that operating funds would not be used to pay interest on future bond funding. Construction of the new middle school is to be included in the FY 2010-14 capital improvement program (CIP), which will be presented to the Board in December. The School Board intends that the new school be built by 2012.

South County Secondary School, which was originally built to serve as a high school with a capacity of 2,500 students, has been operating as a secondary school with 2,900 students enrolled in grades 7-12 during the 2007-08 school year. The school is currently operating on a nine-period day in order to accommodate the extra students. Other solutions the School Board considered to help alleviate crowding at South County include changing boundaries, relocating programs to nearby schools, and building an addition to the existing school.

This School Board is out of control! Spending $52,000,000 to possibly save $22,000,000 over the next 30 years?

July 24, 2008 UPDATE: The School Board motion passed 11-1 to authorize school system staff to negotiate a Purchase and Sale Agreement (PSA) for 8111 Gatehouse. Complete report.

http://www.fcps.edu/news/office.htm


Approval of Phase I in November 2004 resulted in the consolidation of departments and offices from several facilities into Gatehouse Administration Center I at 8115 Gatehouse Road in Falls Church. FCPS demonstrated proven savings with the consolidation of employees into Gatehouse I (maintenance and replacement costs, staff efficiencies) and projects additional savings with the continuation of the consolidation plan.

The School Board is now considering the proposal for the phase II facility. The following facts are offered about this consolidation:

The project will be fully self-funded through savings and efficiencies.
Not $1 will come from the Capital Improvement Program.
No money will be taken away from schools or students.
Fairfax County residents will not be taxed to pay for the building or renovation costs.
Consolidating employees at one site reduces travel between sites for meetings, enables reduction in use of fuel, reduces travel reimbursement costs (green issues).
Because of the increased staffing efficiencies, FCPS expects to save an estimated $1 million per year over the 31-year life cycle.
This is a great time to purchase real estate.
Interest rates are low.
Tax-exempt Interest rates are favorably low.
Motivated seller enabled us to get the building or well below the going rate per square foot of comparable buildings in the county.
No pay ments will need to be made until fiscal year 2013.
Purchasing this existing building will cost $34.8 million less than constructing a second Gatehouse building and the building is 67,000 square feet bigger than Gatehouse I.
A third party has verified that this is a fiscally prudent move for the school system and the families and communities of Fairfax County.

FCPS demonstrated proven savings with the consolidation of employees into the existing Gatehouse I building (maintenance and replacement costs, staff efficiencies), and plan to do it again with Gatehouse II. Another Smart Move.

This consolidation will centrally locate services to provide “one-stop shopping” for families.
This consolidation may allow us to move some capital improvement projects forward.
FCPS can return some existing administrative office buildings (Lacey, Devonshire) back to their communities for schools.
Depending on growth in the Tysons Corner area, Dunn Loring may be used as a school again.
Three buildings will be conveyed to the county in exchange for increased capital improvement funding.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resources
Fact Sheet (pdf)
Gatehouse Administration Center II Purchase vs. Build Analysis (pdf)
Occupancy Model Assessment (pdf)
Third Party Review
Timeline: April-November 2008 (pdf)
Frequently Asked Questions (pdf)
Business Model (pdf)
Background and Cost Savings of Gatehouse Phase I (pdf)

Please review the above information and add your input regarding this proposed purchase through an online survey.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A map and driving directions to Gatehouse Administration Center I are available.

FCPS Welcome Center
Visit the Welcome Center at the Fairfax County Public Schools Gatehouse I Administration Center.
Play this video (01:55)

We don't need another school. We need to redistribute students at the current schools to even out schools.

A new school is complete waste of $52,000,000 for better purposes!

Thank you Gerry Connolly. It is great to know that Fairfax County Tax payers have unlimited resourses to build new schools (SOCO), unneeded office buildings (Gateway) as well as educating students who are in this country illegaly. I was under the impression that we are broke, and that there will need to be additional cuts in spending next year, due to falling real estate prices.

Can you let us know where all of the new revenue is goig to come from, to fund the educating of Illegal Aliens in our county schools? Can you explain why it makes sense to build a new school in SOCO, when you have hundreds of empty seats in surrounding schools? Can you explain why it is necessary to spend $52,000,000 on a new administration building for the "dead wood" staff, at a time when we need more resources for the "front line" teachers?

In real life business, the 1st employees to go in times of downturns in the economy are the "overhead", not the productive members of the business. When are we going to see a reduction in the unneeded "overhead" in our FCPS?

If our Public Schools were run like a business, it would be in Bankruptcy by now. It is a gross neglect of stewardship, when Fairfax County has generated record revenues from tax Payers over the last 4 years, and yet is now basically saying that we are broke, and will have to make cuts next year.

The magnitude of incompetence displayed by our elected school board memebers, as well as our County Board of Supervisors is unbelievable!

http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/news/2008/feb/08/public-bemoans-school-budget-cuts-hearing/


Fairfax County Gets Our Illegal Aliens
By Greg L | 26 April 2008 | Fairfax County, Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 17 Comments

The DC Examiner is reporting that the majority of non-English speaking school students leaving Prince William County as a result of the Rule of Law Resolution are relocating to Fairfax, which as Gerry Connolly has said, doesn’t want “to roll back the welcome mat” for illegal aliens. So while Prince William County is increasingly relieved of the the taxpayer expense of educating illegal aliens, Fairfax County is picking up the tab. I’m sure Fairfax County taxpayers are going to be just thrilled that the financial burden of accommodating illegal aliens is increasingly falling to them, since Connolly is unwilling to address this issue.

The number of non-English-speaking students transferring from Prince William County schools to neighboring school systems climbed again last month as families flee the crackdown on illegal immigrants.

The vast majority, 623 of about 760 departing students, have moved to neighboring Fairfax County schools, while 80 selected Arlington and 58 chose Alexandria.

http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/26/fairfax-county-gets-our-illegal-aliens/

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some advanced classes and activities can only
> exist in a school like TJ.
>
> FCPS high schools - including TJ - seem to have a
> general rule that at least when it comes to
> advanced classes, they will cancel the class
> unless there are over 20 students who sign up and
> can fit the class into their schedule. At TJ,
> over 20 students every year who take differential
> equations, because they took AP Calculus BC in 9th
> or 10th grade, and multivariable calculus and
> linear algebra in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign
> up for organic chemistry, because they took AP
> Chemistry in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign up
> for computational physics, because they excelled
> in AP Physics C during 10th or 11th grade, and
> also have strong computer programming skills.
> Enough sign up for artificial intelligence,
> because they took AP Computer Science AB in 10th
> or 11th grade.
>
> If TJ were closed, these students would be
> dispersed among two dozen high schools, none of
> which would offer these courses. Some FCPS base
> high schools wouldn't even offer all the
> prerequisites to these classes, because there
> wouldn't be 20 students in the building who wanted
> to take them.
>
> The same problem exists when it comes to
> extracurricular activities. The academic
> clubs/teams are run by the top students at TJ.
> These students know more about their subject than
> most HS teachers, and many college students
> majoring in those subjects. The clubs exist only
> because there are over a dozen (and sometimes over
> 100) students who voluntarily spend their time
> going above and beyond the already tough TJ
> courses in those areas. If TJ were closed, no
> FCPS high school would have enough students to
> justify the existence of these clubs.
>
> In the last half a dozen years, TJ students who
> attended these academic team practices ended up
> not only making the US Teams in these subjects,
> but also have been among the four students chosen
> to represent the US in the international
> competitions, and then won gold medals. Some
> start doing graduate-level science research when
> they are 16. This couldn't happen without a TJ.
> There are not enough kids like this in any single
> pyramid, especially not of the caliber needed for
> students to instruct other students in
> college-level material. Dispersing these students
> among two dozen neighborhood high schools would
> ensure that they all learned much less during high
> school.
>
> Relatively few TJ kids make national Olympiad
> teams in math, science and computer programming.
> But, for every TJ student who makes one of these
> teams, dozens more take super-advanced classes and
> attend related academic clubs/teams.
>
> Admittedly, perhaps a quarter of all TJ students
> do not voluntarily take advanced STEM classes or
> participate in any co-curricular activities that
> are not offered in the normal base high school.
> They take AP Calculus AB in 11th or 12th grade.
> They struggle with the tougher required TJ classes
> in math, science and computer programming. They
> participate in sports, student government, or
> other activities that are found in every high
> school. These students probably would be fine -
> perhaps better off - in their neighborhood high
> schools. But most TJ students wouldn't be.


APIB Mom

Would all the TJ students mentioned in your last paragraph happen to be female? It seems that according to Neen (or is her name Mean?) that the girls are dragging TJ down. Do you think that is true? Should we only allow males to apply?

TJ question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Should we only allow males to apply?

Absolutely not. The selection process into TJ should be based solely on the students' abilities (as measured by GPA, test scores, etc). Race and sex should not be considered at all, but we know that'll never happen.

Each sex, race and religion at TJ must be equal to ratios in county. Hence the county has 34% Jewish, TJ should have 34% jewish students. That is the fair method.

Lister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Each sex, race and religion at TJ must be equal to
> ratios in county. Hence the county has 34%
> Jewish, TJ should have 34% jewish students. That
> is the fair method.


So you think ethic, race, religious demographics are more important than ability? What if there aren't enough "qualifying" Jews, Blacks, Indians to fill your quota system? Do they lower admission requirements? This is a very slippery slope you are talking about.
TJ exists to provide exceptional math/science opportnities for exceptional math science students. (My child was a semifinalist this year. Wish he'd made the final cut, but obviously other more qualified students got the golden tickets.) Hopefully these students will take advantage of what they learn at TJ and go on to make important contributions to society.

Lister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Each sex, race and religion at TJ must be equal to
> ratios in county. Hence the county has 34%
> Jewish, TJ should have 34% jewish students. That
> is the fair method.

Complete nonsense.

why tj? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> (My child was a semifinalist this year.
> Wish he'd made the final cut, but obviously other
> more qualified students got the golden tickets.)
>
Was this a sarcastic comment? If not, maybe it should have been. It would not be a surprise at all if they chose kids that were below yours academically, but had the correct ethnic background.

If they picked kids based just on ability, white students would never get into TJ.

As usual "people who know people" get their kids in. It's Northern Virginia, the center of polictics in the World. Everybody here thinks they can spin a subject, deserve more rights and their way is better. Learn it, love it and stop complaining.

Lister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they picked kids based just on ability, white
> students would never get into TJ.

An exageration, but even if it isn't, so be it. Admittance should be based on merit, period.

TJ question,

TJ students who are not particularly strong at math/science include both boys and girls. But girls may be overrepresented among students who take AP Calculus AB instead of AP Calculus BC after precalculus. Usually, this means that they did not do well in precalculus. And if they didn't do well in precalculus, they probably aren't going to try and take other advanced STEM classes.

Some girls excel at STEM within TJ. They are more likely to be found in advanced biology or chemistry classes and related clubs than in physics or computer science. However, the TJ Physics Team had a girl captain in 06-07. The TJ Math Team often has girl officers. And the post-AP STEM classes have plenty of girls.

TJ probably would have a higher percentage of boys if the admissions process were sex-blind, and the goal was to admit middle school students who were most likely to take advantage of the super-advanced STEM classes and activities. As Janie Strauss, the School Board member from Dranesville once said, TJ began emphasizing verbal ability on its admissions test back in the late 1980s or early 1990s after realizing that otherwise it would be hard to admit 50% girls.

TJ question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> > Admittedly, perhaps a quarter of all TJ students
> > do not voluntarily take advanced STEM classes or
> > participate in any co-curricular activities that
> > are not offered in the normal base high school.
>
> > They take AP Calculus AB in 11th or 12th grade.
> > They struggle with the tougher required TJ classes
> > in math, science and computer programming. They
> > participate in sports, student government, or
> > other activities that are found in every high
> > school. These students probably would be fine -
> > perhaps better off - in their neighborhood high
> > schools. But most TJ students wouldn't be.
>
> APIB Mom
>
> Would all the TJ students mentioned in your last
> paragraph happen to be female? It seems that
> according to Neen (or is her name Mean?) that the
> girls are dragging TJ down. Do you think that is
> true? Should we only allow males to apply?

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ question,
>
> TJ students who are not particularly strong at
> math/science include both boys and girls. But
> girls may be overrepresented among students who
> take AP Calculus AB instead of AP Calculus BC
> after precalculus. Usually, this means that they
> did not do well in precalculus. And if they
> didn't do well in precalculus, they probably
> aren't going to try and take other advanced STEM
> classes.
>
> Some girls excel at STEM within TJ. They are more
> likely to be found in advanced biology or
> chemistry classes and related clubs than in
> physics or computer science. However, the TJ
> Physics Team had a girl captain in 06-07. The TJ
> Math Team often has girl officers. And the
> post-AP STEM classes have plenty of girls.
>
> TJ probably would have a higher percentage of boys
> if the admissions process were sex-blind, and the
> goal was to admit middle school students who were
> most likely to take advantage of the
> super-advanced STEM classes and activities. As
> Janie Strauss, the School Board member from
> Dranesville once said, TJ began emphasizing verbal
> ability on its admissions test back in the late
> 1980s or early 1990s after realizing that
> otherwise it would be hard to admit 50% girls.
>


Many science and engineering breakthroughs over the coming years will happen at the boundaries of traditional disciplines e.g. where information science intersects with life sciences, where advanced math intersects with computational social science, where signal processing intersects with rational material design, where biology intersects with fabrication etc

The future economic success of the US depends upon having a strong cadre of scientists, engineers, mathematicians, designers etc, who understand how to work across disciplines and apply tools, techniques and capabilities from one into another. This is blurring the boundary between the traditional 'soft sciences' and traditional 'hard sciences'

In as much as maintaining some balance between the sexes increases the chances that we'll be developing strategic strength and national capacity across the board and especially in the emerging intersections, it makes strategic sense to ensure a good balance between the sexes in the most rigorous educational areas. In the real world of advanced science, engineering and design, verbal ability is as important as mathematical ability - we need the breakthroughs enabled by both. Ensuring an education that gives students the core vocabularies across the major science and math disciplines and an understanding of how they fit together is absolutely key. Many of the country's most innovative leaders in areas such as life sciences and robotics are women.

Biasing towards race, religion, socio-economics, hair-style or body mass index, however, makes no sense.

Opportunity should be available fairly to all based on demonstrated application, demonstrated ability and demonstrated performance. Asking what the right metrics are to ensure that we get the right balance of skills and emphases that men and women bring is fundamentally different than biasing towards affirmative racial or social action.

Please see discussions elsewhere in this Forum regarding BRAC and number of students that may enter the region tied to jobs moving to Belvoir. Since appx 96% of the jobs are occpied by people who already live in the region, number of students coming is expected to be absolutely minimal. Most of the folks won't be moving their households - indeed, their jobs in most cases will be closer to where they live once the jobs are moved to Belvoir.

Why not have an academy program for differential equations, organic chemistry, computational physics, and artificial intelligence, as well as for the prerequisites you mention, so that students from entire county can benefit from them?

Consider the schools with room. Math and computer classes can go just about anywhere, but what kind of special lab spaces would be needed? Lake Braddock is almost centrally located. Maybe additional academies at South Lakes or Falls Church, once we see what happens to the SLHS RD.

I know Academies use up commuting time, but these are courses for junior and senior, most of whom can drive. Or the "super-advanced classes" could be run on an every-other-day plan, so every other day these advanced junior and students are in the Math and Science Academy all day long.

Wouldn't FCPS have just as many if not more National Merit finalists? Why must TJ continue to dominate "Olympiad teams in math, science and computer programming"? Why can't they stay in their neighborhood schools and beef up the home teams? The County could still have an "All-Star" team for those who "start doing graduate-level science research when they are 16."


APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some advanced classes and activities can only
> exist in a school like TJ.
>
> FCPS high schools - including TJ - seem to have a
> general rule that at least when it comes to
> advanced classes, they will cancel the class
> unless there are over 20 students who sign up and
> can fit the class into their schedule. At TJ,
> over 20 students every year who take differential
> equations, because they took AP Calculus BC in 9th
> or 10th grade, and multivariable calculus and
> linear algebra in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign
> up for organic chemistry, because they took AP
> Chemistry in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign up
> for computational physics, because they excelled
> in AP Physics C during 10th or 11th grade, and
> also have strong computer programming skills.
> Enough sign up for artificial intelligence,
> because they took AP Computer Science AB in 10th
> or 11th grade.
>
> If TJ were closed, these students would be
> dispersed among two dozen high schools, none of
> which would offer these courses. Some FCPS base
> high schools wouldn't even offer all the
> prerequisites to these classes, because there
> wouldn't be 20 students in the building who wanted
> to take them.
>
> The same problem exists when it comes to
> extracurricular activities. The academic
> clubs/teams are run by the top students at TJ.
> These students know more about their subject than
> most HS teachers, and many college students
> majoring in those subjects. The clubs exist only
> because there are over a dozen (and sometimes over
> 100) students who voluntarily spend their time
> going above and beyond the already tough TJ
> courses in those areas. If TJ were closed, no
> FCPS high school would have enough students to
> justify the existence of these clubs.
>
> In the last half a dozen years, TJ students who
> attended these academic team practices ended up
> not only making the US Teams in these subjects,
> but also have been among the four students chosen
> to represent the US in the international
> competitions, and then won gold medals. Some
> start doing graduate-level science research when
> they are 16. This couldn't happen without a TJ.
> There are not enough kids like this in any single
> pyramid, especially not of the caliber needed for
> students to instruct other students in
> college-level material. Dispersing these students
> among two dozen neighborhood high schools would
> ensure that they all learned much less during high
> school.
>
> Relatively few TJ kids make national Olympiad
> teams in math, science and computer programming.
> But, for every TJ student who makes one of these
> teams, dozens more take super-advanced classes and
> attend related academic clubs/teams.
>

Lister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they picked kids based just on ability, white
> students would never get into TJ.
>
> As usual "people who know people" get their kids
> in. It's Northern Virginia, the center of
> polictics in the World. Everybody here thinks
> they can spin a subject, deserve more rights and
> their way is better. Learn it, love it and stop
> complaining.

In actuality, fewer white students are getting into TJ. As most people know now, for the first time, the freshmen class at TJ will have a majority of Asian students. I don't believe for a minute that "people who know people" get their kids into TJ. What kind of connections do you think these people have? My son has an Indian friend who got into TJ. While his verbal scores were low, he scored in the 98th percentile in math. I'm very confident that his parents don't know people. While essays, grades,etc. play into the mix it's obvious that top math scores on the admission test are the best key admission.

Don Carr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please see discussions elsewhere in this Forum
> regarding BRAC and number of students that may
> enter the region tied to jobs moving to Belvoir.
> Since appx 96% of the jobs are occpied by people
> who already live in the region, number of students
> coming is expected to be absolutely minimal. Most
> of the folks won't be moving their households -
> indeed, their jobs in most cases will be closer to
> where they live once the jobs are moved to
> Belvoir.

I don't understand your assertion that Belvior is closer to most regional employees than the existing pre-BRAC locations such as fall's church. I don't see many people from the west of the county or Loudon accepting the additional commute to either Belvoir or Meade on a regular basis, when other better alternatives are available closer to home. As always, the best people will have other options.

I suspect you'll see a great deal of churn relating to BRAC - especially if the regional job market remains reasonably strong. As a result, its hard to predict what the impact on schools will be.

Lister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Each sex, race and religion at TJ must be equal to
> ratios in county. Hence the county has 34%
> Jewish, TJ should have 34% jewish students. That
> is the fair method.


so it will be 85% hispanic

Government types like to stay with their jobs. I don't know anyone planning to move OR quit their job JUST because of this. It was different when when some big Navy commands moved from Crystal City to San Diego or Pax River, and Meade is a haul, but Belvoir is an easy commute.

BRAC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don Carr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Please see discussions elsewhere in this Forum
> > regarding BRAC and number of students that may
> > enter the region tied to jobs moving to
> Belvoir.
> > Since appx 96% of the jobs are occpied by
> people
> > who already live in the region, number of
> students
> > coming is expected to be absolutely minimal.
> Most
> > of the folks won't be moving their households -
> > indeed, their jobs in most cases will be closer
> to
> > where they live once the jobs are moved to
> > Belvoir.
>
> I don't understand your assertion that Belvior is
> closer to most regional employees than the
> existing pre-BRAC locations such as fall's church.
> I don't see many people from the west of the
> county or Loudon accepting the additional commute
> to either Belvoir or Meade on a regular basis,
> when other better alternatives are available
> closer to home. As always, the best people will
> have other options.
>
> I suspect you'll see a great deal of churn
> relating to BRAC - especially if the regional job
> market remains reasonably strong. As a result, its
> hard to predict what the impact on schools will
> be.

BRAC'd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Government types like to stay with their jobs. I
> don't know anyone planning to move OR quit their
> job JUST because of this. It was different when
> when some big Navy commands moved from Crystal
> City to San Diego or Pax River, and Meade is a
> haul, but Belvoir is an easy commute.
>

I think you'll be suprised - especially where the contractors are concerned

The contractors can stay in Crystal City if they want to. Many CC offices will otherwise be vacant.

BRAC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BRAC'd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Government types like to stay with their jobs.
> I
> > don't know anyone planning to move OR quit
> their
> > job JUST because of this. It was different when
> > when some big Navy commands moved from Crystal
> > City to San Diego or Pax River, and Meade is a
> > haul, but Belvoir is an easy commute.
> >
>
> I think you'll be suprised - especially where the
> contractors are concerned

Don Carr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please see discussions elsewhere in this Forum
> regarding BRAC and number of students that may
> enter the region tied to jobs moving to Belvoir.
> Since appx 96% of the jobs are occpied by people
> who already live in the region, number of students
> coming is expected to be absolutely minimal. Most
> of the folks won't be moving their households -
> indeed, their jobs in most cases will be closer to
> where they live once the jobs are moved to
> Belvoir.

MD_DC_VA residents whose jobs move due to BRAC might move the household IF the government pays for the move : real estate commission, purchases the house if unsold after 30-60 days on the market, pays 100% of closing costs, pays 100% of moving expenses.

What is the Army relocation policy for military and civilian employees?

Who does FX and FCPS think is going to fund a local move themselves? If in the private sector someone works in downtown DC and job changes to Tysons or Herndon I know of NO company that would pay moving expenses from someplace like Bethesda to Vienna or Mclean. Even if someone put their house on the market they would still have closing, moving, and other expenses. So someone might do that but it is unlikely that many would buy a house in South County while simultaneously carrying another property in this market.

Neen Wrote:
> In 1950, less than 20% of Blacks were born into
> homes without fathers. After welfare, and all the
> other 'help' doled out to Blacks, that percentage
> is 70%. We have ruined the Black community and
> the Black family, with all of our 'help'. Similar
> help is fast eroding public schools. If the
> 'help' continues we can expect that Blacks will
> remain on the bottom as every immigrant group
> passes them by, without government 'help'.

Careful, you're drawing a conclusion without proving a correlation. Remember that most heroin addicts started out breastfeeding...

How much of a GPA do you think someone in the middle of 8th grade is going to have? Seems silly to use that as a criteria for entrance.

Many TJ students go on to study in the humanities. They get in to TJ but do not follow on with an emphasis on math, science and technology. They go to TJ because they are smart, can get in, and because the county has no governor's school option for those who seek to study other subjects. A perfect FCPS school to close and turn into such a humanities school would be Oakton. It is already too close to Fairfax and Madison and it has easy access via route 66.

Why not SL?


Many TJ students go on to Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many TJ students go on to study in the humanities.
> They get in to TJ but do not follow on with an
> emphasis on math, science and technology. They go
> to TJ because they are smart, can get in, and
> because the county has no governor's school option
> for those who seek to study other subjects. A
> perfect FCPS school to close and turn into such a
> humanities school would be Oakton. It is already
> too close to Fairfax and Madison and it has easy
> access via route 66.

FCPS does not support more magnets, in part because by losing their high testers it is harder for schools to keep their accreditation. That is one reason people keep suggesting adding academies to schools with excess space.

According to that chart Stat Man told us about, and WITHOUT any redistricting, here are the high schools now projected to have more than 300 empty seats in 2012:

Lee. 366 empty seats
Stuart 435 empty seats
Mount Vernon 565 empty seats
Falls Church 717 empty seats
Lake Braddock 856 empty seats
South Lakes 900 empty seats

Many TJ students go on to Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many TJ students go on to study in the humanities.
> They get in to TJ but do not follow on with an
> emphasis on math, science and technology. They go
> to TJ because they are smart, can get in, and
> because the county has no governor's school option
> for those who seek to study other subjects. A
> perfect FCPS school to close and turn into such a
> humanities school would be Oakton. It is already
> too close to Fairfax and Madison and it has easy
> access via route 66.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some advanced classes and activities can only
> exist in a school like TJ.
>
> FCPS high schools - including TJ - seem to have a
> general rule that at least when it comes to
> advanced classes, they will cancel the class
> unless there are over 20 students who sign up and
> can fit the class into their schedule. At TJ,
> over 20 students every year who take differential
> equations, because they took AP Calculus BC in 9th
> or 10th grade, and multivariable calculus and
> linear algebra in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign
> up for organic chemistry, because they took AP
> Chemistry in 10th or 11th grade. Enough sign up
> for computational physics, because they excelled
> in AP Physics C during 10th or 11th grade, and
> also have strong computer programming skills.
> Enough sign up for artificial intelligence,
> because they took AP Computer Science AB in 10th
> or 11th grade.
>
> If TJ were closed, these students would be
> dispersed among two dozen high schools, none of
> which would offer these courses. Some FCPS base
> high schools wouldn't even offer all the
> prerequisites to these classes, because there
> wouldn't be 20 students in the building who wanted
> to take them.
>
> The same problem exists when it comes to
> extracurricular activities. The academic
> clubs/teams are run by the top students at TJ.
> These students know more about their subject than
> most HS teachers, and many college students
> majoring in those subjects. The clubs exist only
> because there are over a dozen (and sometimes over
> 100) students who voluntarily spend their time
> going above and beyond the already tough TJ
> courses in those areas. If TJ were closed, no
> FCPS high school would have enough students to
> justify the existence of these clubs.
>
> In the last half a dozen years, TJ students who
> attended these academic team practices ended up
> not only making the US Teams in these subjects,
> but also have been among the four students chosen
> to represent the US in the international
> competitions, and then won gold medals. Some
> start doing graduate-level science research when
> they are 16. This couldn't happen without a TJ.
> There are not enough kids like this in any single
> pyramid, especially not of the caliber needed for
> students to instruct other students in
> college-level material. Dispersing these students
> among two dozen neighborhood high schools would
> ensure that they all learned much less during high
> school.
>
> Relatively few TJ kids make national Olympiad
> teams in math, science and computer programming.
> But, for every TJ student who makes one of these
> teams, dozens more take super-advanced classes and
> attend related academic clubs/teams.
>
> Admittedly, perhaps a quarter of all TJ students
> do not voluntarily take advanced STEM classes or
> participate in any co-curricular activities that
> are not offered in the normal base high school.
> They take AP Calculus AB in 11th or 12th grade.
> They struggle with the tougher required TJ classes
> in math, science and computer programming. They
> participate in sports, student government, or
> other activities that are found in every high
> school. These students probably would be fine -
> perhaps better off - in their neighborhood high
> schools. But most TJ students wouldn't be.

This is just fascinating stuff to read - 25 years ago, the top FFX students (and, mind you, this included kids who went on to succeed at UVA, MIT, and the Ivies and earn Ph.Ds, become top researchers and engineers in their chosen fields, etc.) took BC Calculus in 12th grade. At TJ, they would be considered pikers today! Kudos to you and your wunderkind.

In any event, juxtaposing these reports with the declining performance of students at schools such as Madison and the School Board's recent acknowledgment as to the under-performance in Fairfax of Black and Hispanic students relative to minorities in other school systems in Virginia makes me think the Fairfax schools have gone very British on us. The best students (or, at least, test-takers) get a top-flight education and the vast majority must settle for far less. It's certainly not the American tradition, and one can question how well this will serve our economic interests in the future, but the train seems to have left the station.

Quantum - If Evanston or Winnetka were a bit warmer, I'd be there by the start of the next school year!

Magnets Repel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is just fascinating stuff to read - 25 years
> ago, the top FFX students (and, mind you, this
> included kids who went on to succeed at UVA, MIT,
> and the Ivies and earn Ph.Ds, become top
> researchers and engineers in their chosen fields,
> etc.) took BC Calculus in 12th grade. At TJ, they
> would be considered pikers today! Kudos to you
> and your wunderkind.
>

Things are very different nowadays. When I was in middle and high school, the top students would take Algebra I in 8th grade. And I went to a top university, no problem.

Lo and behold, fast forward, you now have kids and taking Algebra in 8th grade means you're an also-ran.

It is what it is. The pressure on kids is a multiple of what I experienced. I don't think we're going back.

When I was growing up, I used to run around the neighborhood after school, play with friends, have clubs, read books and the like.

Now, if you're kid isn't a competitive sports player by 4th or 5th grade, it's difficult getting into a sport. You have no choice but to put your child in numerous activities because there are very few kids in the neighborhood who aren't involved in multiple activities, too.

My mother never arranged "play-dates" for me either, but that's the norm, now -- scheduled play.

Many, many things have changed. We're not getting a world from 25 years ago back. Things are that much more competitive now. There are good things and bad things about this.

TJ should exist for the truly top students who otherwise couldn't be served in their local school. With class sizes going up, schools like South Lakes are going to have more difficulty having the highest-level math classes for its students unless it continues to combine HL and SL courses. Even McLean or Oakton or Langley will have difficulty. Bigger class sizes hurt kids in more ways than one. They will insist students who need more take on-line classes, and it just isn't the same thing.