Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
.
>
> They [CAPS] would be interested in any specific incident
> in which Butler refused to sign a pupil placement
> form and the reason/s why.

I would bet a lot of money that Prinicpal Butler has never refused to sign a pupil placement form that requests placement for AP over IB. He has no discretion to refuse, and tells the parents up front that he lacks such discretion. The meeting with him is effectively a sales pitch/informational session about the IB program. We did not buy into it three years ago, and did not again this year. The forms were signed and promptly forwarded to the IP school requested.

CAPS can keep banging their collective heads against the wall in the lawsuit, Principal Butler will not be one of the casualties.

Bruce is a nice man. However, contrary to your post, and consistent with many other earlier posts, he is consistently denying requests for pupil placement to Oakton unless a) there is an older sibling already at Oakton, b) your 8th grade kid is in Geometry; or c) your kid has some need for American sign language. So your post is stupid.

Your post is particularly stupid, because you suggest the lawsuit is ained at Butler. You create that image in your own mind since there is nothing to support such an implication. CAPS is merely helping people struggle with the pupil placement. You are just trying to be witty and provocative. Instead, you are just a dick.

This message was approved by the committee against RD but who still thinks Butler is a nice guy....a.k.a., everyone who has met with him to try to spring their kid from the clutches of this absurd RD.

Focusing on the wrong target Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> .
> >
> > They would be interested in any specific
> incident
> > in which Butler refused to sign a pupil
> placement
> > form and the reason/s why.
>
> I would bet a lot of money that Prinicpal Butler
> has never refused to sign a pupil placement form
> that requests placement for AP over IB. He has no
> discretion to refuse, and tells the parents up
> front that he lacks such discretion. The meeting
> with him is effectively a sales
> pitch/informational session about the IB program.
> We did not buy into it three years ago, and did
> not again this year. The forms were signed and
> promptly forwarded to the IP school requested.
>
> CAPS can keep banging their collective heads
> against the wall in the lawsuit, Principal Butler
> will not be one of the casualties.

The fact that less students at Hughes take the Geometry SOL might be explained by the lack of 7th-graders taking Algebra I at Sunrise Valley. I can tell you that for my HWES 6th and 8th graders, most of their class passed the Iowa test and 8th-grade math SOL. There were a couple (I can think of 1) that elected not to take it until 8th grade, but most of the GTC students and Hunters Woods are eligible to take Algebra I in 7th grade.

And most of those GTC students go on to Rachel Carson instead of Hughes. I don't know the exact percentages, but it seems like 75% of the GTC students at Hunters Woods are from outside the SLHS pyramid. And if there are a significant cohort of GTC students at Sunrise Valley that are also outside the SL pyramid, then it is reasonable to ask what benefit there is to Hughes and South Lakes by providing GTC education to so many when they won't move on to those schools.

Bruce Butler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce is a nice man. However, contrary to your
> post, and consistent with many other earlier
> posts, he is consistently denying requests for
> pupil placement to Oakton unless a) there is an
> older sibling already at Oakton, b) your 8th grade
> kid is in Geometry; or c) your kid has some need
> for American sign language. So your post is
> stupid.
>
> Your post is particularly stupid, because you
> suggest the lawsuit is ained at Butler. You
> create that image in your own mind since there is
> nothing to support such an implication. CAPS is
> merely helping people struggle with the pupil
> placement. You are just trying to be witty and
> provocative. Instead, you are just a dick.
>
> This message was approved by the committee against
> RD but who still thinks Butler is a nice
> guy....a.k.a., everyone who has met with him to
> try to spring their kid from the clutches of this
> absurd RD.
>

Very intelligent write-up! NOT. Nice choice of words - don't agree with the statement so let's just call this blogger names. Must be really proud of yourself.

Maybe he is not approving many of the pupil placement forms because Oakton may NOT be the closest school to either the pupil's residence OR to South Lakes, ever think of that?

TJHSST expects students to have finished Geometry before 9th grade. And for college students entering science, tech, or engineering majors, a mastery of calculus (and beyond) is necessary.

Given that nowadays there are so many 7th-graders successfully completing Algebra I Honors, I don't understand why any elementary school would not try it's best to prepare students to take this class in middle school. It doesn't seem fair to the students at Sunrise Valley ES, when their peers at Hunters Woods are ready for Algebra.

In my opinion, Bruce should not deny any forms...once a family has made a bona fide request to leave, the request should be approved from the losing school...that is, the losing school has no dog in the fight about which school the kid goes to. The losing school only verifies that there is a bona fide reason to leave. The gaining school can deny the request if over crowded or for another internal academic/management reason. But if there is room in the gaining school, I do not see why any kid cannot go to any school in the county if there is room. I asked Betsy Goodman and Bruce why cant a kid go to any school in the county that has room...they could not provide an answer...they honestly did not know why parents are required to go to the nearest AP school. Just a policy some fool put into place years ago that no one understands. Unfortunately, Dale's #2 told Bruce he had to enforce the policy, so Bruce is the cop on the beat enforcing a rule he did not make, does not understand, and apparently does not agree with. Historically, he may have approved all, but no longer. Also, this strict enforcement at SL is not being followed elsewhere...other schools approve any request. The SB is just trying to punish malcontents from Fox Mill and Floris who want to escape their idiotic social engineering.

This message is approved by the true committee against RD but who likes Bruce Butler...not to be confused with the previously mentioned committee with bad behavior.


Maybe Wrote:
> >
>
> Very intelligent write-up! NOT. Nice choice of
> words - don't agree with the statement so let's
> just call this blogger names. Must be really
> proud of yourself.
>
> Maybe he is not approving many of the pupil
> placement forms because Oakton may NOT be the
> closest school to either the pupil's residence OR
> to South Lakes, ever think of that?

I have to agree with the Bruce Butler poseur. The original post was kinda dumb. CAPS hasnt said anything about Butler. Where did that idea come from. CAPS is just trying to help folks with pupil placement. And it IS true that folks have been hashing on this site for awhile about the inability to pupil place to Oakton. Hmmmm


Maybe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce Butler Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Bruce is a nice man. However, contrary to your
> > post, and consistent with many other earlier
> > posts, he is consistently denying requests for
> > pupil placement to Oakton unless a) there is an
> > older sibling already at Oakton, b) your 8th
> grade
> > kid is in Geometry; or c) your kid has some
> need
> > for American sign language. So your post is
> > stupid.
> >
> > Your post is particularly stupid, because you
> > suggest the lawsuit is ained at Butler. You
> > create that image in your own mind since there
> is
> > nothing to support such an implication. CAPS
> is
> > merely helping people struggle with the pupil
> > placement. You are just trying to be witty and
> > provocative. Instead, you are just a dick.
> >
> > This message was approved by the committee
> against
> > RD but who still thinks Butler is a nice
> > guy....a.k.a., everyone who has met with him to
> > try to spring their kid from the clutches of
> this
> > absurd RD.
> >
>
> Very intelligent write-up! NOT. Nice choice of
> words - don't agree with the statement so let's
> just call this blogger names. Must be really
> proud of yourself.
>
> Maybe he is not approving many of the pupil
> placement forms because Oakton may NOT be the
> closest school to either the pupil's residence OR
> to South Lakes, ever think of that?

I am the real Bruce Butler, and I think Maybe is stupid too. The other Bruce Butler did not disagree with the original poster. The original Bruce Butler said I was nice, which was nice. The original Bruce Butler said the original poster was a dick b/c the original poster made crap up about CAPS, and then yammered about how it used to be, rather than how it is. I think the original Bruce Butler was correct...the original poster is a dick.


Maybe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce Butler Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Bruce is a nice man. However, contrary to your
> > post, and consistent with many other earlier
> > posts, he is consistently denying requests for
> > pupil placement to Oakton unless a) there is an
> > older sibling already at Oakton, b) your 8th
> grade
> > kid is in Geometry; or c) your kid has some
> need
> > for American sign language. So your post is
> > stupid.
> >
> > Your post is particularly stupid, because you
> > suggest the lawsuit is ained at Butler. You
> > create that image in your own mind since there
> is
> > nothing to support such an implication. CAPS
> is
> > merely helping people struggle with the pupil
> > placement. You are just trying to be witty and
> > provocative. Instead, you are just a dick.
> >
> > This message was approved by the committee
> against
> > RD but who still thinks Butler is a nice
> > guy....a.k.a., everyone who has met with him to
> > try to spring their kid from the clutches of
> this
> > absurd RD.
> >
>
> Very intelligent write-up! NOT. Nice choice of
> words - don't agree with the statement so let's
> just call this blogger names. Must be really
> proud of yourself.
>
> Maybe he is not approving many of the pupil
> placement forms because Oakton may NOT be the
> closest school to either the pupil's residence OR
> to South Lakes, ever think of that?

I have first hand experience in this. In my meeting, after Butler gave me his SL pitch, and I told him we want AP he said he has to sign my form.

But then he showed his true colors. He would not sign on the form until the receiving school was either Herndon or Madison for Floris kids. We wanted Westfield and he said NO. Why is this? Once he knows we don't want IB why should he care where we go? He says he is following county guide lines (closest school to residence or home school).

I say this is nothing but vengence against parents who do not want to send kids to SL. Add to this the fact that last year kids from Reston area were pupil placed into Westfields and Oakton even though Madison and Henrdon are closest AP schools to Reston kids. Lot of favoritism going on if you ask me.

This whole process has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I am never voting for any school budget increases and bonds.

according the fairfaxcaps website, you don't even have to meet with butler and he does not need to sign - references a memo sent by one of Dale's minions http://fairfaxcaps.org/html/pupil_placement.html

what_butler_did Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have first hand experience in this. In my
> meeting, after Butler gave me his SL pitch, and I
> told him we want AP he said he has to sign my
> form.
>
> But then he showed his true colors. He would not
> sign on the form until the receiving school was
> either Herndon or Madison for Floris kids. We
> wanted Westfield and he said NO. Why is this?
> Once he knows we don't want IB why should he care
> where we go? He says he is following county guide
> lines (closest school to residence or home
> school).
>
> I say this is nothing but vengence against parents
> who do not want to send kids to SL. Add to this
> the fact that last year kids from Reston area were
> pupil placed into Westfields and Oakton even
> though Madison and Henrdon are closest AP schools
> to Reston kids. Lot of favoritism going on if you
> ask me.
>
> This whole process has left such a bad taste in my
> mouth that I am never voting for any school budget
> increases and bonds.

Got it - current school boundaries should be written in stone for all time, but the SL principal following county guidelines on pupil placement is an act of vengeance and spite. Maybe he's complying with the guidelines to the letter because he's in a damned-if-he-does and damned-if-he-doesn't situation.

On second thought, where's Lester Maddox when you need him?

You might want to be careful about your massive resistance, on-the-verge-of-succession plans - didn't turn out so well for Virginia the last time.

Yankees suck...and so do you. What kind of moron are you...your post is gibberish. Why do you insult the Commonwealth of Virginia like this. Virginia is a great state. And voting against school bonds is a great act of civil protest. Similarly, people should refuse to turn in the census form. Cut funding to schools as much as possible. "Oh no, the poor kids..." Crap...there is so much money being wasted in FCPS...like the morality report, like bussing kids from the Loudoun border to Langley, like building a SOCO school, like not using the capacity they built at Westfields, like increasing the salary of the school board, like building an extension to Langley when SL had room, like paying for IB, when AP is cheaper. A pox on FCPS.

Re; Butler...he is a coward. He should stand up to his managers and refuse to arbitrarily enforce an arbitrary rule. That is, previously he did not enforce the 'closest school rule'. Other schools do not enforce that rule. And he cannot explain why the rule exists. What kind of person enforces a rule for which they cannot even guess a rationale. Furthermore, the rule does not say that having older siblings in another school is a valid reason for approving pupil placement. Once he decided to add a criteria for approving, he left himself open for being arbitrary...why not add other criteria...why follow any criteria. He is a nice coward, but a coward nonetheless.

Ding-a-lings abound.


Damn Yankee Wrote:

>
> Got it - current school boundaries should be
> written in stone for all time, but the SL
> principal following county guidelines on pupil
> placement is an act of vengeance and spite. Maybe
> he's complying with the guidelines to the letter
> because he's in a damned-if-he-does and
> damned-if-he-doesn't situation.
>
> On second thought, where's Lester Maddox when you
> need him?
>
> You might want to be careful about your massive
> resistance, on-the-verge-of-succession plans -
> didn't turn out so well for Virginia the last
> time.

Red Sox fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yankees suck...and so do you. What kind of moron
> are you...your post is gibberish. Why do you
> insult the Commonwealth of Virginia like this.
> Virginia is a great state. And voting against
> school bonds is a great act of civil protest.
> Similarly, people should refuse to turn in the
> census form. Cut funding to schools as much as
> possible. "Oh no, the poor kids..." Crap...there
> is so much money being wasted in FCPS...like the
> morality report, like bussing kids from the
> Loudoun border to Langley, like building a SOCO
> school, like not using the capacity they built at
> Westfields, like increasing the salary of the
> school board, like building an extension to
> Langley when SL had room, like paying for IB, when
> AP is cheaper. A pox on FCPS.
>
> Re; Butler...he is a coward. He should stand up
> to his managers and refuse to arbitrarily enforce
> an arbitrary rule. That is, previously he did not
> enforce the 'closest school rule'. Other schools
> do not enforce that rule. And he cannot explain
> why the rule exists. What kind of person enforces
> a rule for which they cannot even guess a
> rationale. Furthermore, the rule does not say
> that having older siblings in another school is a
> valid reason for approving pupil placement. Once
> he decided to add a criteria for approving, he
> left himself open for being arbitrary...why not
> add other criteria...why follow any criteria. He
> is a nice coward, but a coward nonetheless.
>
> Ding-a-lings abound.
>
>
Let me guess - South Boston? Let me know if you need a discount on a megaphone or a carton of eggs.

Red Sox fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re; Butler...he is a coward. He should stand up
> to his managers and refuse to arbitrarily enforce
> an arbitrary rule. That is, previously he did not
> enforce the 'closest school rule'. Other schools
> do not enforce that rule. And he cannot explain
> why the rule exists. What kind of person enforces
> a rule for which they cannot even guess a
> rationale. Furthermore, the rule does not say
> that having older siblings in another school is a
> valid reason for approving pupil placement. Once
> he decided to add a criteria for approving, he
> left himself open for being arbitrary...why not
> add other criteria...why follow any criteria. He
> is a nice coward, but a coward nonetheless.
>
> Ding-a-lings abound.
>
>


Why stop there? Why follow the rules when you can just rebel? Anarchy, I say. That is the answer.

In fact, why don't we rebel against paying taxes. I am sure every single one of us can find something in the state or federal budget that we do not like, or don't understand or can't explain.

Why stop there? Wrote:

>
> Why stop there? Why follow the rules when you can
> just rebel? Anarchy, I say. That is the answer.
>
> In fact, why don't we rebel against paying taxes.
> I am sure every single one of us can find
> something in the state or federal budget that we
> do not like, or don't understand or can't explain.

Taxes are required by law. Voting for school bonds or returning census forms is optional. The 'closest school' rule was made up by some unelected bureaucrat. A big difference.

Dear Friend,

FairfaxCAPS was started by Fairfax County citizens who were gravely concerned over the tumultuous and flawed West County High School Boundary Study. The School Board admitted flaws in the boundary study scope and in the process. Despite calls from our communities to stop redistricting, the School Board approved a redistricting plan that changed the geography of your home and the educational choice you made for your children*. On March 28, a lawsuit was filed charging that the redistricting decision was arbitrary and capricious and that the school board exceeded its authority.

Thanks to the support we received from hundreds of friends and neighbors from around the community and across the county, FairfaxCAPS has been empowered to engage attorneys in a landmark case to overturn the Fairfax County School Board�s recent decision to redistrict our schools. This case, scheduled to be heard in Circuit Court in early July 2008, will make it clear that the Fairfax County School Board is accountable for its actions and must operate within State law. While winning this battle will not be easy, we are confident in the soundness of our legal claims and the abilities of our legal team.

So, now we are turning to you. We are asking for your support to help continue this fight. Your financial support will help ensure our success in this battle and in our larger efforts to ensure that School Board decisions are fair, equitable, and serve the educational needs of Fairfax County students. You can make a donation by credit card online at http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/html/donation.html. If you would prefer to send a check, please send a check along with the form below. (Form in Microsoft Word)

Thank you again in advance for your generous support. We encourage you to visit http://www.FairfaxCAPS.org to keep up to date. We will continue to post important information and opportunities for volunteering.


Nick Pesce
President

* High school assignments for residents of Fox Mill Elementary and parts of Floris Elementary, and Navy Elementary and elementary, middle school, and high school assignments for parts residents of Wolf Trap Elementary.

There has to be some oversight of this school board. Way to go CAPS. We also need to get on the general poll ballot the initiative to restore oversight of SB by board of supervisors.

Got this from FairfaxCaps today Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Friend,
>
> FairfaxCAPS was started by Fairfax County citizens
> who were gravely concerned over the tumultuous and
> flawed West County High School Boundary Study.
> The School Board admitted flaws in the boundary
> study scope and in the process. Despite calls
> from our communities to stop redistricting, the
> School Board approved a redistricting plan that
> changed the geography of your home and the
> educational choice you made for your children*.
> On March 28, a lawsuit was filed charging that the
> redistricting decision was arbitrary and
> capricious and that the school board exceeded its
> authority.
>
> Thanks to the support we received from hundreds of
> friends and neighbors from around the community
> and across the county, FairfaxCAPS has been
> empowered to engage attorneys in a landmark case
> to overturn the Fairfax County School
> Board�s recent decision to redistrict our
> schools. This case, scheduled to be heard in
> Circuit Court in early July 2008, will make it
> clear that the Fairfax County School Board is
> accountable for its actions and must operate
> within State law. While winning this battle will
> not be easy, we are confident in the soundness of
> our legal claims and the abilities of our legal
> team.
>
> So, now we are turning to you. We are asking for
> your support to help continue this fight. Your
> financial support will help ensure our success in
> this battle and in our larger efforts to ensure
> that School Board decisions are fair, equitable,
> and serve the educational needs of Fairfax County
> students. You can make a donation by credit card
> online at
> http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/html/donation.html. If
> you would prefer to send a check, please send a
> check along with the form below. (Form in
> Microsoft Word)
>
> Thank you again in advance for your generous
> support. We encourage you to visit
> http://www.FairfaxCAPS.org to keep up to date. We
> will continue to post important information and
> opportunities for volunteering.
>
>
> Nick Pesce
> President
>
> * High school assignments for residents of Fox
> Mill Elementary and parts of Floris Elementary,
> and Navy Elementary and elementary, middle school,
> and high school assignments for parts residents of
> Wolf Trap Elementary.

Got this from FairfaxCaps today Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Friend,
>
> FairfaxCAPS was started by Fairfax County citizens
> who were gravely concerned over the tumultuous and
> flawed West County High School Boundary Study.
> The School Board admitted flaws in the boundary
> study scope and in the process. Despite calls
> from our communities to stop redistricting, the
> School Board approved a redistricting plan that
> changed the geography of your home and the
> educational choice you made for your children*.
> On March 28, a lawsuit was filed charging that the
> redistricting decision was arbitrary and
> capricious and that the school board exceeded its
> authority.
>
> Thanks to the support we received from hundreds of
> friends and neighbors from around the community
> and across the county, FairfaxCAPS has been
> empowered to engage attorneys in a landmark case
> to overturn the Fairfax County School
> Board�s recent decision to redistrict our
> schools. This case, scheduled to be heard in
> Circuit Court in early July 2008, will make it
> clear that the Fairfax County School Board is
> accountable for its actions and must operate
> within State law. While winning this battle will
> not be easy, we are confident in the soundness of
> our legal claims and the abilities of our legal
> team.

>
> So, now we are turning to you. We are asking for
> your support to help continue this fight. Your
> financial support will help ensure our success in
> this battle and in our larger efforts to ensure
> that School Board decisions are fair, equitable,
> and serve the educational needs of Fairfax County
> students. You can make a donation by credit card
> online at
> http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/html/donation.html. If
> you would prefer to send a check, please send a
> check along with the form below. (Form in
> Microsoft Word)
>
> Thank you again in advance for your generous
> support. We encourage you to visit
> http://www.FairfaxCAPS.org to keep up to date. We
> will continue to post important information and
> opportunities for volunteering.
>
>
> Nick Pesce
> President
>
> * High school assignments for residents of Fox
> Mill Elementary and parts of Floris Elementary,
> and Navy Elementary and elementary, middle school,
> and high school assignments for parts residents of
> Wolf Trap Elementary.


"A landmark case"? I thought that was reserved for something more like Brown vs. Board of Education. The Pesce letter sure sounds fishy to me. Somebody needs to edit the dude's copy.

SoontoRunforanOfficeNearYou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "A landmark case"? I thought that was reserved
> for something more like Brown vs. Board of
> Education. The Pesce letter sure sounds fishy to
> me. Somebody needs to edit the dude's copy.

What's fishy about it?

pesce = fish

Here are a couple of thoughts for comment. Before folks attack, please understand that I am / was anti-RD, but am a supporter of SLHS. I just think the process was porrly handled at many levels.

1. Given what he has been told, it sounds like Butler is doing his job, trying to be as compassionate and fair as he can be, given his constraints. Every principal should believe in their school and "argue" its strengths whenever possible - that is an admirable trait.

2. The guideline relative to the closest school (from house or base school) would likely not stand up in court, and certainly would not in an arbitration or mediation. Given that until this year that criteria has been primarily ignored, and placements were based on acceptance from the receiving school regardless of residence, FCPS is technically unable to require that it be arbitrarily enforced.

3. Regardless of item 2 above, the following should be considered. FCPS boundaries often have students attending a base high school other than the closest ot their home. Some boundaries, such as Langley's and Oakton's contain elements closer to several other high schools. Based on the published documentation, the closest high school (other than your base school) can be interpreted as the next closest high school border. In fact, this might be the most logical interpretation to maintain consistency with FCPS general districting policies.

Fairfax Dad - yor item 3 might be one of the most logical arguments upon which all parties might agree. I am reading it with one of my colleagues who is a public defense council, and we both agree thta on the surface it looks like a strong argument. I am goign to have one of our clerks do some quick diligence and see what they come up with. This is quite interesting!

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pesce = fish

an education thread where you have to explain the jokes...

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJHSST expects students to have finished Geometry
> before 9th grade. And for college students
> entering science, tech, or engineering majors, a
> mastery of calculus (and beyond) is necessary.
>
> Given that nowadays there are so many 7th-graders
> successfully completing Algebra I Honors, I don't
> understand why any elementary school would not try
> it's best to prepare students to take this class
> in middle school. It doesn't seem fair to the
> students at Sunrise Valley ES, when their peers at
> Hunters Woods are ready for Algebra.

This thread doesn't really belong on this forum, but it's here so I'll respond...Actually/Interestingly TJ does not want students to take Geometry before 9th grade. In fact, if you take Geometry in 8th grade (or earlier) they will make you take a summer course in Geometry at TJ (so you learn it their way) before they let you take Alg 2 in 9th grade. (Another interesting factoid: of the 56 kids from RCMS who made it into TJ, 50 were in the GT center...and most had not taken Geometry yet.)

Why stop there? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Red Sox fan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Re; Butler...he is a coward. He should stand
> up
> > to his managers and refuse to arbitrarily
> enforce
> > an arbitrary rule. That is, previously he did
> not
> > enforce the 'closest school rule'. Other
> schools
> > do not enforce that rule. And he cannot
> explain
> > why the rule exists. What kind of person
> enforces
> > a rule for which they cannot even guess a
> > rationale. Furthermore, the rule does not say
> > that having older siblings in another school is
> a
> > valid reason for approving pupil placement.
> Once
> > he decided to add a criteria for approving, he
> > left himself open for being arbitrary...why not
> > add other criteria...why follow any criteria.
> He
> > is a nice coward, but a coward nonetheless.
> >
> > Ding-a-lings abound.
> >
> >
>
>
> Why stop there? Why follow the rules when you can
> just rebel? Anarchy, I say. That is the answer.
>
> In fact, why don't we rebel against paying taxes.
> I am sure every single one of us can find
> something in the state or federal budget that we
> do not like, or don't understand or can't explain.


Hold on. I don't think anyone suggested not paying taxes--just not voting for school bonds that encourage more wastefulness. The poster is right...FCPS is amazingly, shockingly wasteful with OUR money. All that unnecessary building ($7 for addition to Langley),,,and that morality survey...yes, it must have cost something. Can you imagine what would happen at your office if you spent company money on something like that?

I recall reading minutes from a 2005 school board meeting where Stu Gibson was advocating that FCPS use the same redistricting guidelines that were being used in some school district in CO. Does anyone recall the school district that he referred to?

It might be interesting to see what that school district was doing.

He was clearly troubled with the way the SOCO boundary process was done based on the minutes. If my memory serves me, he said "FCPS has never opened a new school thay was overcrowded on Day 1".

I guess we can thank Dano for that.

"This thread doesn't really belong on this forum, but it's here so I'll respond...Actually/Interestingly TJ does not want students to take Geometry before 9th grade. In fact, if you take Geometry in 8th grade (or earlier) they will make you take a summer course in Geometry at TJ (so you learn it their way) before they let you take Alg 2 in 9th grade. (Another interesting factoid: of the 56 kids from RCMS who made it into TJ, 50 were in the GT center...and most had not taken Geometry yet.)"

How do you know this? Considering how many kids at RCMS are taking geometry, it seems odd to say the least that the TJ admits aren't among them. I know of several 8th grade geometry AND GTC students who didn't get in this year, so what kind of process is it that lets in kids at a lower math level for a math/science school? I'd like to know more about this.

I know about 20 kids/families from Carson that have been accepted by TJHSST and only ONE is not taking Geometry this year. We know them because of friendships and extra-curriculars started at HWES. So I'm not sure where you got your info.

Same with Hughes.

And I didn't think my questions were off-topic as I believe that any differences in the quality of instruction (especially in math) between Hughes and Carson would be of interest to anyone being RDed into the SL pyramid. And they certainly are of interest to me as my kids are going to Hughes/SLHS. I still don't understand the scores and it continues to be a concern.

seems strange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "This thread doesn't really belong on this forum,
> but it's here so I'll
> respond...Actually/Interestingly TJ does not want
> students to take Geometry before 9th grade. In
> fact, if you take Geometry in 8th grade (or
> earlier) they will make you take a summer course
> in Geometry at TJ (so you learn it their way)
> before they let you take Alg 2 in 9th grade.
> (Another interesting factoid: of the 56 kids from
> RCMS who made it into TJ, 50 were in the GT
> center...and most had not taken Geometry yet.)"
>
> How do you know this? Considering how many kids at
> RCMS are taking geometry, it seems odd to say the
> least that the TJ admits aren't among them. I know
> of several 8th grade geometry AND GTC students who
> didn't get in this year, so what kind of process
> is it that lets in kids at a lower math level for
> a math/science school? I'd like to know more
> about this.

I know this from a RCMS 8th grader who made the final cut (my child was a semi-finalist who didn't.) I was commenting that my child knew only 2 kids from his Geometry class who made it in (there was 4 classes of Geometry at Carson), and I was surprised that the number was 56 admitted. The parent of the child who was admitted told me that most who got in weren't taking Geometry yet. I thought it was strange too, but my child and the other child (who got in) said that the test really only goes as far as Algebra. And, the fact that TJ makes students take Geometry (at summer school or during the school year) at TJ (even if you have already taken it) says something. Makes me wonder what's wrong with the Geometry curriculum at Carson and elsewhere if TJ won't accept it. BTW, this student who got in was in the 98 percentile on the math portion of the TJ test. (Let me note that I said percentile--compared with the other sharp students who also took the test.)Clearly a very high score on the math portion of the test is the key to admission.

How many students are there in RCMC 8th grade?

I have a hard time believing that a student that scored in the 98th percentile on the test and has already taken Geometry Honors and earned a passing score and passed the SOL will be forced to take Geometry over again during the summer.

Most of the students taking Geometry in 8th grade have a high aptitude in all maths, and in order to qualify for Algebra you must score in the 90's on the "Iowa" test. So it would follow that those in Geometry in 8th would be high scorers on the TJ test. Of course, students not in an accelerated math class could also score just as high and if they can take Geometry over the summer, then they are just as qualified as those who take it the year before.

And just because a student is taking Geometry in 8th grade doesn't mean that they are mastering the subject.

Does anyone know if the school board has a plan or agenda with respect to Falls Church High similar to what happened at South Lakes? I understand that Falls Church and Mount Vernon are the two other high schools in the county besides South Lakes that are significantly under-capacity but in Mount Vernon's case there are still projected to be 1700-1800 students while only 1200 students are expected to be at Falls Church in a few years. It seems like a situation that the school board will decide it has to address in some way, but I don't have a clue what the ripple effects might be further west.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Hold on. I don't think anyone suggested not
> paying taxes--just not voting for school bonds
> that encourage more wastefulness. The poster is
> right...FCPS is amazingly, shockingly wasteful
> with OUR money. All that unnecessary building ($7
> for addition to Langley),,,and that morality
> survey...yes, it must have cost something. Can
> you imagine what would happen at your office if
> you spent company money on something like that?

I understand the frustration of the people who are annoyed with the School Board over the SL redistricting - but keep in mind that, in some instances, the impact would be to move kids from a new (Westfield) or recently renovated (Oakton, right?) school to another recently renovated school (South Lakes). If you take a trip to Edison or Marshall or West Springfield, you'll see there are schools with real needs for physical plant improvements, and all that's actually been funded to date are studies.

By all means, tell the board not to waste our money on morality surveys, and let's force them to do something sensible with South County secondary, but please remember that some of us have waited patiently in the wings, not tried to shove a redistricting down anyone's throats, and hoped that we would get something in return eventually.

Marshall Booster:

Oakton HS is a dump. No recent renovation there but they should be on the list to get one.

I just read my previous post and realized how rude it sounds.

My apologies to Oakton HS folks. I didn't mean to "trash" the school but I wanted to point out that Oakton should be on any short list for renovations.

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just read my previous post and realized how rude
> it sounds.
>
> My apologies to Oakton HS folks. I didn't mean to
> "trash" the school but I wanted to point out that
> Oakton should be on any short list for
> renovations.

Sorry - confused Oakton (which doesn't get renovated, but is affected by RD) with Langley (which gets an big addition, but isn't touched at all). Guess they both look nice from the outside.

Geometry in 8th Wrote:
> BTW,
> this student who got in was in the 98 percentile
> on the math portion of the TJ test. (Let me note
> that I said percentile--compared with the other
> sharp students who also took the test.)Clearly a
> very high score on the math portion of the test is
> the key to admission.

Max, on his shoe-phone -
"Would you believe, a kid I know got a 99th percentile on the entire TJ test and didn't get in..."

99 (TJ administrator) -
"Well, that child certainly tests well..."

Max -
"Good Thinking 99..."

------

For once, Max is telling the truth. It did happen.

The SB changed the rules 3 years ago so they'd get a more diverse population at TJ. About 75% of the kids who take the test get to the second round on test + grades. After that, they pick whomever they feel like.

Scoring in the 99th percentile isn't diverse enough. At least not diverse enough on the dimensions that FCPS cares about...

As a TJ mom, I can assure you that students who have taken geometry in middle school are not required to repeat geometry over the summer before 9th grade. These days, most 9th grade students at TJ take Algebra 2/Trig, a few dozen take precalculus or AP Calculus, and a small minority take Geometry in 9th grade. In part, that's because some of the students admitted who only took Algebra 1 in 8th grade decide to take Geometry the summer before 9th.


Geometry in 8th? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Actually/Interestingly TJ does not want
students to take Geometry before 9th grade. In
fact, if you take Geometry in 8th grade (or
earlier) they will make you take a summer course
in Geometry at TJ (so you learn it their way)
before they let you take Alg 2 in 9th grade.
(Another interesting factoid: of the 56 kids from
RCMS who made it into TJ, 50 were in the GT
center...and most had not taken Geometry yet.)

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a TJ mom, I can assure you that students who
> have taken geometry in middle school are not
> required to repeat geometry over the summer before
> 9th grade. These days, most 9th grade students at
> TJ take Algebra 2/Trig, a few dozen take
> precalculus or AP Calculus, and a small minority
> take Geometry in 9th grade. In part, that's
> because some of the students admitted who only
> took Algebra 1 in 8th grade decide to take
> Geometry the summer before 9th.
>
>
> Geometry in 8th? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Actually/Interestingly TJ does not want
> students to take Geometry before 9th grade. In
> fact, if you take Geometry in 8th grade (or
> earlier) they will make you take a summer course
> in Geometry at TJ (so you learn it their way)
> before they let you take Alg 2 in 9th grade.
> (Another interesting factoid: of the 56 kids from
> RCMS who made it into TJ, 50 were in the GT
> center...and most had not taken Geometry yet.)

Can you please start a new thread for this - it's gone beyond anything having to do with redistricting, which remains a concern to many of us whose children are either not interested in TJ or not equipped to take on college-level calculus in kindergarten. Thanks.

Admissions data for the students who currently are juniors at TJ is available on this web site: http://www.ceousa.org/content/view/582/101/

The data is in excel format, so that parents can use it to figure out what is going on. Briefly, the holistic admissions process that was adopted four years ago is resulting in the admission of much more "academically diverse" classes.

Geometry in 8th Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know this from a RCMS 8th grader who made the
> final cut (my child was a semi-finalist who
> didn't.) I was commenting that my child knew only
> 2 kids from his Geometry class who made it in
> (there was 4 classes of Geometry at Carson), and I
> was surprised that the number was 56 admitted. The
> parent of the child who was admitted told me that
> most who got in weren't taking Geometry yet. I
> thought it was strange too, but my child and the
> other child (who got in) said that the test really
> only goes as far as Algebra. And, the fact that
> TJ makes students take Geometry (at summer school
> or during the school year) at TJ (even if you have
> already taken it) says something. Makes me wonder
> what's wrong with the Geometry curriculum at
> Carson and elsewhere if TJ won't accept it. BTW,
> this student who got in was in the 98 percentile
> on the math portion of the TJ test. (Let me note
> that I said percentile--compared with the other
> sharp students who also took the test.)Clearly a
> very high score on the math portion of the test is
> the key to admission.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Admissions data for the students who currently are
> juniors at TJ is available on this web site:
> http://www.ceousa.org/content/view/582/101/
>
> The data is in excel format, so that parents can
> use it to figure out what is going on. Briefly,
> the holistic admissions process that was adopted
> four years ago is resulting in the admission of
> much more "academically diverse" classes.
>
Please start a new thread or move on. You are highjacking the thread with your posts - and the data isn't relevant to the RD thread because it doesn't provide any indication as to the middle schools from which the applicants applied - which was the original nexus.

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just read my previous post and realized how rude
> it sounds.
>
> My apologies to Oakton HS folks. I didn't mean to
> "trash" the school but I wanted to point out that
> Oakton should be on any short list for
> renovations.


good god man! an apologies on FFXU - where will it end - civility might just break out

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a hard time believing that a student that
> scored in the 98th percentile on the test and has
> already taken Geometry Honors and earned a passing
> score and passed the SOL will be forced to take
> Geometry over again during the summer.
>
> Most of the students taking Geometry in 8th grade
> have a high aptitude in all maths, and in order to
> qualify for Algebra you must score in the 90's on
> the "Iowa" test. So it would follow that those in
> Geometry in 8th would be high scorers on the TJ
> test. Of course, students not in an accelerated
> math class could also score just as high and if
> they can take Geometry over the summer, then they
> are just as qualified as those who take it the
> year before.
>
> And just because a student is taking Geometry in
> 8th grade doesn't mean that they are mastering the
> subject.


Sorry you have a hard time believing it. I suggest you call TJ. This is easy info to verify. All I know if what the parent of the recently admitted student told me (and they are good friends.)

And, you are correct about the kids taking Geometry in 8th have a high aptitude for math. 6th graders have to score at least a 95 (or 92..I forget) on the Iowa Alg Test and then score well (an adv proficient) on the 8th grade math SOLs to get into Alg Honors in 7th grade.

"Bruce Butthead" wrote:

Your post is particularly stupid, because you suggest the lawsuit is ained at Butler. You create that image in your own mind since there is nothing to support such an implication.

Forum Reader had written (to which I was replying):

>
> They [CAPS] would be interested in any specific incident
> in which Butler refused to sign a pupil placement
> form and the reason/s why.


If you think for a second that CAPS will not attempt to depose Principal Butler in order to show that he is complicit in this RD thing, or at least paint him as a lackey in this "waste of taxpayer money" lawsuit, then you are the "dick".

And, in response to the poster who said that I was talking about what once was, but no longer is, I can tell you that my second child THIS SPRING had a pupil placement request approved by Principal Butler. IF you meet the requirements of the regulation, he has NO DISCRETION to refuse to sign the form.

Sorry if you did not cross all of your "T"s and dot all of your "I"s, or if you did not do your homework.

C[R]APS is wasting your money, as well as mine

Maxwell Smart Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geometry in 8th Wrote:
> > BTW,
> > this student who got in was in the 98
> percentile
> > on the math portion of the TJ test. (Let me
> note
> > that I said percentile--compared with the other
> > sharp students who also took the test.)Clearly
> a
> > very high score on the math portion of the test
> is
> > the key to admission.
>
> Max, on his shoe-phone -
> "Would you believe, a kid I know got a 99th
> percentile on the entire TJ test and didn't get
> in..."
>
> 99 (TJ administrator) -
> "Well, that child certainly tests well..."
>
> Max -
> "Good Thinking 99..."
>
> ------
>
> For once, Max is telling the truth. It did
> happen.
>
> The SB changed the rules 3 years ago so they'd get
> a more diverse population at TJ. About 75% of the
> kids who take the test get to the second round on
> test + grades. After that, they pick whomever
> they feel like.
>
> Scoring in the 99th percentile isn't diverse
> enough. At least not diverse enough on the
> dimensions that FCPS cares about...


Sorry, I don't believe a student placed in the 99th percentile overall and didn't get in. I'd be very curious to see this student's official test results before I'd believe it. Have you seen his paperwork personallY?

Incoming TJ freshman who took Geometry in 8th grade are not required to retake it in summer school prior to attending or in their freshman year. Those students are required to complete, over the summer, a "data analysis" packet that covers subject matter that TJ will teach to freshmen that take Geometry at TJ. TJ teaches an enhanced version of Geometry (much like they do in many subjects), and the "data analysis" packet puts them on a par with students who take Geometry at TJ, in advancing on to Algebra II, etc. The packet is done as a self-study program, and is turned in when they arrive in the fall.

Butler has to sign off on any transfer. It is against FCPS policy to refuse. He only has to be aware of the application and sign off on it. You need to include a reason which meets FCPS criteria (i.e. AP instead of IB) He absolutely CAN give you a hard time if you are already attending SL and want to transfer. He cannot refuse to sign the transfer form. Butler can be very polite and attentive and nice. He can also show a completely different side.

Geometry in 8th Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you seen his paperwork personallY?

Yes.

My son scored 98th %ile on math and 95th% on the verbal/english on the TJ test 3 years ago and did not get in. He had taken geometry in 8th grade.

Once the kids make the first cut, TJ takes the "Country Club" approach. They pick who they like.

I had thought of TJ as a place where students who needed the higher level courses would get them. FCPS sees it as a special treat and wants to distribute this treat more equitably.


Geometry in 8th Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maxwell Smart Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Geometry in 8th Wrote:
> > > BTW,
> > > this student who got in was in the 98
> > percentile
> > > on the math portion of the TJ test. (Let me
> > note
> > > that I said percentile--compared with the
> other
> > > sharp students who also took the
> test.)Clearly
> > a
> > > very high score on the math portion of the
> test
> > is
> > > the key to admission.
> >
> > Max, on his shoe-phone -
> > "Would you believe, a kid I know got a 99th
> > percentile on the entire TJ test and didn't get
> > in..."
> >
> > 99 (TJ administrator) -
> > "Well, that child certainly tests well..."
> >
> > Max -
> > "Good Thinking 99..."
> >
> > ------
> >
> > For once, Max is telling the truth. It did
> > happen.
> >
> > The SB changed the rules 3 years ago so they'd
> get
> > a more diverse population at TJ. About 75% of
> the
> > kids who take the test get to the second round
> on
> > test + grades. After that, they pick whomever
> > they feel like.
> >
> > Scoring in the 99th percentile isn't diverse
> > enough. At least not diverse enough on the
> > dimensions that FCPS cares about...
>
>
> Sorry, I don't believe a student placed in the
> 99th percentile overall and didn't get in. I'd be
> very curious to see this student's official test
> results before I'd believe it. Have you seen his
> paperwork personallY?

goodness gracious! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dotdotdot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I just read my previous post and realized how
> rude
> > it sounds.
> >
> > My apologies to Oakton HS folks. I didn't mean
> to
> > "trash" the school but I wanted to point out
> that
> > Oakton should be on any short list for
> > renovations.
>
>
> good god man! an apologies on FFXU - where will it
> end - civility might just break out

You are full of crap

Interesting story - I know a family that had fled from the SL pyramid, moving out to avoid those schools, and now the lakes have caught up with them again. If moving put at least one full school district space between SL and you new home.

dumped into lakes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting story - I know a family that had fled
> from the SL pyramid, moving out to avoid those
> schools, and now the lakes have caught up with
> them again. If moving put at least one full school
> district space between SL and you new home.


Put a whole county

Can anything stop the expansion of South Lakes? Wow, it's like SLHS runs the whole county according to some of these anti-RD folks.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anything stop the expansion of South Lakes?
> Wow, it's like SLHS runs the whole county
> according to some of these anti-RD folks.

Not quite, but it is Gibson's pet school, so they have been getting pretty much what they want.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can anything stop the expansion of South Lakes?
> > Wow, it's like SLHS runs the whole county
> > according to some of these anti-RD folks.
>
> Not quite, but it is Gibson's pet school, so they
> have been getting pretty much what they want.


That's right, South Lakes run the whole show. Even more privileged than Langley and McLean.

Has FCPS lost students due to immigration outflow. Looking at Prince
William figures, they have lost 1550 students since the beginning of the
school year. Surely, Fairfax County is seeing some of this as well.


Does anyone know the answer?

I believe FX might be on the " receiving" end in Hispanic ESOL. Can't find a net gain
South Lakes Trans ESOL
sept 07 =112
sept 06 = 72
gain = 40


http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/historical/index.html#Eth

http://www.watesol.org/newsletter/v34_1/v34_1_03_whatworks.html

this is a huge exc3ll file with all the schools in VA for free and reduced price meals. Huge percentages and schools in FX that are comparable might be overall doing worse on SOL's/AYP. I don't know. Quickly scanning it shows what an achievement schools in Richmond have done - outperform FCPS in minority student achievemnt yet much higher poverty.

Don't sweat the small stuff hopefully 99% of our kids our going to grow up , wreck a car ,get jobs, and pay taxes just like we did . Most of of our parents probably just stuck us on bus. We all made it, so our kids probably will

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Finance/Nutrition/statistics.html

forgot link to documents

SL does not run the show. But Gibson does for Hunter Mill. In this school board, the members to not interfere in each other districts. Kind of a deal - you scratch my back and I will scratch yours. That way each one has unlimited power over his district. Even if all at large members oppose, each district member will win 9-3.
So Gibson can decide to send the entire Hunter Mill area to SL, and the motion will pass.


SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can anything stop the expansion of South Lakes?
> > Wow, it's like SLHS runs the whole county
> > according to some of these anti-RD folks.
>
> Not quite, but it is Gibson's pet school, so they
> have been getting pretty much what they want.

Numbers count when you RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has FCPS lost students due to immigration outflow.
> Looking at Prince
> William figures, they have lost 1550 students
> since the beginning of the
> school year. Surely, Fairfax County is seeing
> some of this as well.
>
>
> Does anyone know the answer?

I have a strong suspicion that FFX will become one of a number of refuges for illegals fleeing PW and other clampdowns

Given that Griffen's report on the costs of services to illegals was gutted on the basis 'its too hard to guess the numbers', one can guess the costs were scarily high.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/26/AR2007112601974.html

A good working assumption seems to be that about 50% of the latino population in the US is illegal (using the fairly accepted 20M illegal figure). On average, you could rationally assume that FFX was about average before the clamp down in PW but is probably heading upwards.

The whole thing is a political time bomb for the county. Whole schools are failing because large chunks of the catchment are illegal and the children lack sufficient english to succeed, despite huge tax-payer investment

For the first time in many years, FCPS gained population, 1,500 new students.

Cancel the RD, the illegals from PW will probably relocate to the liberal enclave of Reston. Problem solved!

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cancel the RD, the illegals from PW will probably
> relocate to the liberal enclave of Reston. Problem
> solved!

Sorry, but that group doesn't fit the profile for the type of students that SL-PTSA requested from Stu Gibson.

dumped into lakes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting story - I know a family that had fled
> from the SL pyramid, moving out to avoid those
> schools, and now the lakes have caught up with
> them again. If moving put at least one full school
> district space between SL and you new home.

It's not quite so fascinating when it gets repeated over and over and over again - see below excerpt from 1/21/08 Herndon Observer:


"Fox Mill area parent Dan Carney is also concerned about the boundary study. In the county's most recent boundary proposal, Carney's Fox Mill neighborhood is slated to attend South Lakes. But Carney, the father of a second-grade student at Fox Mill elementary and a seventh grader at Rachel Carson Middle School, said he would not send his children to South Lakes.

"The quality of education is demonstrably inferior to that at Oakton," Carney said of South Lakes. He said he and his family moved from Reston to their current neighborhood "for the explicit purpose of not having my children attend Reston schools."

Kinda wonder why he was living in Reston in the first place if that was his attitude, but whatever.

I am not the previous poster and also know of such a family that moved to get their kids out of SLHS prior to Langston Hughes. They live in the Madison Island area and they moved in about four years ago. Their oldest went to Madison their youngest is in Wolftrap in 6th grade. So who knew? They didnt move to another part of Reston for that matter the people of Fox Mill did not move to Reston either.

I still scratch my head at why not North Reston to South Lakes? These kids grew up together hitting the same camps and pools, they know each other for goodness sakes. Wouldnt have that been the logical solution? Move some of the farthest out Langley kids to Herndon HS and move the North Reston kids to SLHS? If it was ever necessary to begin with. I actually believe the SLHS numbers were increasing on their own. This has done them far more damage than good however.

True Story Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not the previous poster and also know of such
> a family that moved to get their kids out of SLHS
> prior to Langston Hughes. They live in the
> Madison Island area and they moved in about four
> years ago. Their oldest went to Madison their
> youngest is in Wolftrap in 6th grade. So who
> knew? They didnt move to another part of Reston
> for that matter the people of Fox Mill did not
> move to Reston either.
>
> I still scratch my head at why not North Reston to
> South Lakes? These kids grew up together hitting
> the same camps and pools, they know each other for
> goodness sakes. Wouldnt have that been the
> logical solution? Move some of the farthest out
> Langley kids to Herndon HS and move the North
> Reston kids to SLHS? If it was ever necessary to
> begin with. I actually believe the SLHS numbers
> were increasing on their own. This has done them
> far more damage than good however.

Agree with you that SB should have included Langley/Herndon as part of any RD analysis - SB really shot themselves in the foot by playing favorites this way. Will anyone remember in 2011?

But, as to the island, RD was going to happen at some point. Wolftrap is overcrowded and kids have been in trailers for years. And island would have been rezoned at HS level eventually to Marshall if not South Lakes. Basically it was a small number of kids traveling long distances by bus to what are generally viewed as top Vienna schools (Wolftrap/Thoreau/Madison). No one else enjoyed that tier - virtually all other Wolftrap students feed into Kilmer and then split @ 50-50 between Madison and Marshall.

Why don't you loser home body parents get a life! Instead of posting here every five minutes complaining get a real life and do something constructive.

Get A Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't you loser home body parents get a life!
> Instead of posting here every five minutes
> complaining get a real life and do something
> constructive.

Look in the mirror - no one forced you to read any thread on the forum. Get lost if you don't like what you see.

3 weeks have passed since the filing. Anyone hear what is the response from SB?

lawsuit news? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3 weeks have passed since the filing. Anyone hear
> what is the response from SB?


Court date is set for early July.

WASTE OF MONEY CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP

lawsuit news? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3 weeks have passed since the filing. Anyone hear
> what is the response from SB?

They are laughing their asses off.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can anything stop the expansion of South Lakes?
> > Wow, it's like SLHS runs the whole county
> > according to some of these anti-RD folks.
>
> Not quite, but it is Gibson's pet school, so they
> have been getting pretty much what they want.

Exactly right. If Stu doesn't get enough kids into South Lakes this time, he will force more students into South Lakes in 2 years.

Yawning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dumped into lakes Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Interesting story - I know a family that had
> fled
> > from the SL pyramid, moving out to avoid those
> > schools, and now the lakes have caught up with
> > them again. If moving put at least one full
> school
> > district space between SL and you new home.
>
> It's not quite so fascinating when it gets
> repeated over and over and over again - see below
> excerpt from 1/21/08 Herndon Observer:
>
>
> "Fox Mill area parent Dan Carney is also concerned
> about the boundary study. In the county's most
> recent boundary proposal, Carney's Fox Mill
> neighborhood is slated to attend South Lakes. But
> Carney, the father of a second-grade student at
> Fox Mill elementary and a seventh grader at Rachel
> Carson Middle School, said he would not send his
> children to South Lakes.
>
> "The quality of education is demonstrably inferior
> to that at Oakton," Carney said of South Lakes. He
> said he and his family moved from Reston to their
> current neighborhood "for the explicit purpose of
> not having my children attend Reston schools."
>
> Kinda wonder why he was living in Reston in the
> first place if that was his attitude, but
> whatever.

Like so many who move to Reston, they are young, don't have kids and don't care about the schools. Then they have kids, find out how bad the schools are, and they move out, but still want to remain close to their friends in Reston, while escaping Reston schools. Crossfield, Navy, and Fox Mill are filled with those folks.

Numbers count when you RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has FCPS lost students due to immigration outflow.
> Looking at Prince
> William figures, they have lost 1550 students
> since the beginning of the
> school year. Surely, Fairfax County is seeing
> some of this as well.
>
>
> Does anyone know the answer?

YES! Gerry Connelly said that illegals are welcome here and the population of FCPS increased by 1500 students this year. Dr. Dale said that they are expecting an additional 1,000 in the fall, students they did not expect before this year.

Hunter Mill gal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Numbers count when you RD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has FCPS lost students due to immigration
> outflow.
> > Looking at Prince
> > William figures, they have lost 1550 students
> > since the beginning of the
> > school year. Surely, Fairfax County is seeing
> > some of this as well.
> >
> >
> > Does anyone know the answer?
>
> YES! Gerry Connelly said that illegals are
> welcome here and the population of FCPS increased
> by 1500 students this year. Dr. Dale said that
> they are expecting an additional 1,000 in the
> fall, students they did not expect before this
> year.


With 2000 empty seats at South Lakes and Mount Vernon send the illegals to these schools.

It is not illegals it is FCPS's inability to count. Of course there are 1500 kids they didnt expect that is what the anti RDers have been trying to tell you all. They cant accurately project your enrollments, so why when they have such gaps in their ability to project do they base a boundary change on projected enrollments? They will have far more than 1500 that they didnt predict, wait and see. The census they sent out should have been tallied by now have they published the results? No probably not and likely will not.

No transparency yet a go ahead and our hike taxes cause Lizzy and Abe Lincoln need their new middle school. Its for the children afterall, anything for the children as long as they are their children and not yours.

joke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Of course there are 1500 kids they didnt expect that is what the anti RDers have been trying to tell you all. They cant accurately project your enrollments, so why when they have such gaps in their ability to project do they base a boundary change on projected enrollments? They will have far more than 1500 that they didnt predict, wait and see.< <

I'm no fan of FCPS on almost any matter but with a population of 165,000 kids in the system, a 1500 kid underestimate is less than a 1% deviation. Demographers rarely get estimates that close to reality. Being off by that miniscule margin is hardly a war crime.

so I am confused. What is meant by "SB has to respond in 3 weeks" as qouted in the newspapers?


SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lawsuit news? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 3 weeks have passed since the filing. Anyone
> hear
> > what is the response from SB?
>
>
> Court date is set for early July.

As a South Lakes graduate I can tell the concerned parents here that your kids who end up at South Lakes will be just fine. The stress and drama caused with this whole silly debate (and now the lawsuit) far outweighs any potential negative effect the re-districting could have ever had in the first place. It could also cause a backlash of non-acceptance of the new kids that would never have existed were it not for their overly concerned parents.

I hope it's a good lesson that when the unnecessary RD is conducted in an arbitrary and unfair way, when the RD'd parents valid concerns are labeled as racist, elitist, etc, and the SB refuse to work on the real issues, this is what's going to happen.

If the RD gets stopped in July, what happens to the kids that got redistricted? How can they change their classes before school starts to the other school? Will they get the classes they chose??

South Lakes Alum - I concur with your views to the extent that concerns over South Lakes high school are, and have been, overblown.

I do not concur with your views to the extent that the sturm and drang of parents and others relate to declining standards and educational progress overall in FCPS. FCPS spends a lot of money - and appears singularly adept at showcasing scores and achievements of students from families and homes that mostly need little guidance and direction, and who are in any event inclined to succeed in spite of the schools, not necessarily because of them. More disturbing is that an outsize share of resources goes to to the students that really do need help, and yet performance for those groups remains relatively dismal. And if academic vigilance is not instilled, school for these troubled populations too often becomes a form of adolescent day care and warehousing and not a place for true learning. While there is no magic wand to wave for an improvement performance for these groups - results are poor all over the country - appallingly so - one would think that with the resources expended in FCPS the results would be better, and not worse. South Lakes exemplifies (but is certainly in no way alone and criticism to that effect is unfair) these problems.

While again I agree it is the case that students from better environments will do just fine at South Lakes - there are too many empirical success stories to argue otherwise - it is also folly to think that South Lakes and other FCPS high schools can just permit the saddening demographic achievement trends to continue without consequence and without some considerable degree of "better" student flight. In a sense the South Lakes RD issue is a leading flashpoint of what is to come - and in I were running the FCPS system - I would be worried - because this will replay itself in other areas of the county in the future - and building expensive buildings and rearranging students on a map will not fix the problems.

Sad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope it's a good lesson that when the
> unnecessary RD is conducted in an arbitrary and
> unfair way, when the RD'd parents valid concerns
> are labeled as racist, elitist, etc, and the SB
> refuse to work on the real issues, this is what's
> going to happen.

Yes, well I guess what is done is done and now all we can hope for is to make the best of the situation. I wish all the involved students the best of luck. South Lakes is a great school with unlimited opportunities to excel. Your situation is what you make of it. Take it from a South Lakes grad who went on to attend college in the Ivy League alongside rich prep school kids who had the best education money could buy. Just give South Lakes a fair chance and I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Again- Good Luck!

Who says this is about South Lakes?

As far as I am concerned, this is AP vs IB issue. Even if South Lakes was a 5 star school, my son would not go there. He prefers AP.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Alum - I concur with your views to the
> extent that concerns over South Lakes high school
> are, and have been, overblown.
>
> I do not concur with your views to the extent that
> the sturm and drang of parents and others relate
> to declining standards and educational progress
> overall in FCPS. FCPS spends a lot of money - and
> appears singularly adept at showcasing scores and
> achievements of students from families and homes
> that mostly need little guidance and direction,
> and who are in any event inclined to succeed in
> spite of the schools, not necessarily because of
> them. More disturbing is that an outsize share
> of resources goes to to the students that really
> do need help, and yet performance for those groups
> remains relatively dismal. And if academic
> vigilance is not instilled, school for these
> troubled populations too often becomes a form of
> adolescent day care and warehousing and not a
> place for true learning. While there is no magic
> wand to wave for an improvement performance for
> these groups - results are poor all over the
> country - appallingly so - one would think that
> with the resources expended in FCPS the results
> would be better, and not worse. South Lakes
> exemplifies (but is certainly in no way alone and
> criticism to that effect is unfair) these
> problems.
>
> While again I agree it is the case that students
> from better environments will do just fine at
> South Lakes - there are too many empirical success
> stories to argue otherwise - it is also folly to
> think that South Lakes and other FCPS high schools
> can just permit the saddening demographic
> achievement trends to continue without consequence
> and without some considerable degree of "better"
> student flight. In a sense the South Lakes RD
> issue is a leading flashpoint of what is to come -
> and in I were running the FCPS system - I would be
> worried - because this will replay itself in other
> areas of the county in the future - and building
> expensive buildings and rearranging students on a
> map will not fix the problems.

Quantum- you're an intellectual who cares deeply about academic opportunity as well as public policy. Many people in this county care more about identifying with a specific school or community [even if it's not where they live] than actual academic institutions.

This week the Board of Supervisors committed to millions of dollars - new school building not an addition - which would open in the outer year of this dismal economic climate. In a smaller school division with perhaps 4 high schools and less cash available, I doubt this would have happened. Money that could otherwise go into instruction is diverted. Ironically the school size issue was only applicable for the South Lakes' boundary process. How does this affect the lawsuit?

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=313201&paper=80&cat=110

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lakes Alum - I concur with your views to
> the
> > extent that concerns over South Lakes high
> school
> > are, and have been, overblown.
> >
> > I do not concur with your views to the extent
> that
> > the sturm and drang of parents and others
> relate
> > to declining standards and educational progress
> > overall in FCPS. FCPS spends a lot of money -
> and
> > appears singularly adept at showcasing scores
> and
> > achievements of students from families and
> homes
> > that mostly need little guidance and direction,
> > and who are in any event inclined to succeed in
> > spite of the schools, not necessarily because
> of
> > them. More disturbing is that an outsize
> share
> > of resources goes to to the students that
> really
> > do need help, and yet performance for those
> groups
> > remains relatively dismal. And if academic
> > vigilance is not instilled, school for these
> > troubled populations too often becomes a form
> of
> > adolescent day care and warehousing and not a
> > place for true learning. While there is no
> magic
> > wand to wave for an improvement performance for
> > these groups - results are poor all over the
> > country - appallingly so - one would think that
> > with the resources expended in FCPS the results
> > would be better, and not worse. South Lakes
> > exemplifies (but is certainly in no way alone
> and
> > criticism to that effect is unfair) these
> > problems.
> >
> > While again I agree it is the case that
> students
> > from better environments will do just fine at
> > South Lakes - there are too many empirical
> success
> > stories to argue otherwise - it is also folly
> to
> > think that South Lakes and other FCPS high
> schools
> > can just permit the saddening demographic
> > achievement trends to continue without
> consequence
> > and without some considerable degree of
> "better"
> > student flight. In a sense the South Lakes RD
> > issue is a leading flashpoint of what is to come
> -
> > and in I were running the FCPS system - I would
> be
> > worried - because this will replay itself in
> other
> > areas of the county in the future - and
> building
> > expensive buildings and rearranging students on
> a
> > map will not fix the problems.
>
> Quantum- you're an intellectual who cares deeply
> about academic opportunity as well as public
> policy. Many people in this county care more
> about identifying with a specific school or
> community than actual academic institutions.
>
> This week the Board of Supervisors committed to
> millions of dollars - new school building not an
> addition - which would open in the outer year of
> this dismal economic climate. In a smaller school
> division with perhaps 4 high schools and less cash
> available, I doubt this would have happened.
> Money that could otherwise go into instruction is
> diverted. Ironically the school size issue was
> only applicable for the South Lakes' boundary
> process. How does this affect the lawsuit?
>
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?a
> rticle=313201&paper=80&cat=110


Taxpayer-
Research Coppermine ES, but don't pretend like you care

Quantum- Not trying to dive into all the details and philosophical debates that have already been hashed out here in excruciating detail. Just want to offer my inside experience as a graduate of South Lakes- an insight that I'm guessing few (if any) of the parents here have personally. I simply want to reassure them that they will be just fine. Please keep an open mind and a positive outlook. If you set yourself up for disappointment at South Lakes you might just end up carrying out a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a child truly has what it takes to be successful it won't matter what school they went to or what AP / IB program they completed.

Unfortunately it does not work that way. At least for a few years, until all the families at the recieving end of this absurd RD move away to other areas, there will be no willing participants in SL. Having to go to a non AP school like south lakes is seen as a huge compromise and acknowledgement that these folks are not good enough to take AP like Langley and Madison. Frankly I dont see a reason why the south lakes area have to compromise with IB. Those kids are as good as any in Langley or Madison and should get the same AP courses as the other high performing schools. And before anyone starts on how IB is great, take a look at the stats. Except one exception, ALL IB schools underperform the AP schools. Those are the numbers on which parents percieve schools and universities decide.

The real sad part is that we are fighting among ourselves instead of forcing the SB to provide equal oppurtunities like AP to ALL high schools. Singling out the diverse schools and not providing AP to diverse schools is immoral. It only serves to increase the achievement gap. Its also sends a wrong message to the young kids - If you are white and rich, you can get college level AP, if you are not rich or not white then you need to do college prep work with IB. An absurd shocking premise which this SB had adopted.



South Lakes Alum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I hope it's a good lesson that when the
> > unnecessary RD is conducted in an arbitrary and
> > unfair way, when the RD'd parents valid
> concerns
> > are labeled as racist, elitist, etc, and the SB
> > refuse to work on the real issues, this is
> what's
> > going to happen.
>
> Yes, well I guess what is done is done and now all
> we can hope for is to make the best of the
> situation. I wish all the involved students the
> best of luck. South Lakes is a great school with
> unlimited opportunities to excel. Your situation
> is what you make of it. Take it from a South
> Lakes grad who went on to attend college in the
> Ivy League alongside rich prep school kids who had
> the best education money could buy. Just give
> South Lakes a fair chance and I think you will be
> pleasantly surprised. Again- Good Luck!

It is becoming clear to me that there are many Hunters Woods students that will not be continuing on to Hughes. There was a school event last night and a couple of parents told me their kids were going to private schools, or that they had their houses up for sale. I had to promise one parent that I wouldn't tell anyone because he didn't want to deal with defending his actions to some of the other parents.

So the "brain drain" that takes place between HWES/SVES and Hughes becomes even larger because not only are the out-of-pyramid students returning to their base/base GTC middle schools, but the in-pyramid parents are opting out at the middle school level.

I don't feel like the proper attention has been given to the disparity between the various middle schools.

reality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And before anyone starts on how IB is
> great, take a look at the stats. Except one
> exception, ALL IB schools underperform the AP
> schools. Those are the numbers on which parents
> percieve schools and universities decide.
>
By what measure? Aren't both Robinson and Marshall IB schools whose graduates have SAT scores in the top 50% of Fairfax high schools? And South Lakes' 2007 SAT scores are higher than Herndon's and close to Westield's. Is there some other measure of achievement on which you're placing greater emphasis from a college admissions perspective?

As a practical matter, how many college students are looking for AP credits in order to, say, graduate in three years or immediately place into intermediate or higher-level courses in college? I had enough AP credits from high school to graduate from a top East Coast university in three years, but stayed all four years in order to take more courses and enjoy the college experience. Has the world changed that much over the past 20 years?

South Lakes alum - your description of your status reflects that of recurring South Lakes success story. You and I are in agreement - one can get an excellent education at South Lakes - and indeed, in a strange way - you might aver that there is a form of comparative advantage in attending there. And for great students like you, the IB vs. AP issue is a not a big deal. But I would kindly remind you again that the South Lakes RD issue struck a nerve of frustration at the FCP Schools and at their failures to deal more effectively with groups that are simply not doing very well and are not contributing to the schools and communities in a way that we hope that they would. It is not equitable to lay all of this at the school's feet - but they bear some responsibility - especially with a political leadership that deigns to trumpet that social engineering in its various forms brings salutary results.

Anonymous - I do not practice local law but my reading of the lawsuit is that - being charitable as possible - it stands almost no chance of success. Others who post here - including Thomas More - appear more familiar and adept with local law - and I think would explain better than I can - but in my view the lawsuit's potential is dim to non-existent given the significant discretion accorded to public officials in their decision making processes. The planned building of a new school - irrespective of whether that is a wise business decision - is not relevant to the lawsuit in my view and in any event will not impact its outcome. I think we would all be better off to recognize that litigation is often the least efficient and effective ways to overcome challenges - I think that principle really applies here.

As far as smaller school districts or divisions go, I absolutely favor them - this is one of the negatives and big differences between FCPS and smaller, northern school suburban school districts with similar demographics. While FCPS is likely stuck with its form of government, query whether they would be open to massive institutional change that would give smaller units much more independence than they enjoy now, with an objective to increase community participation and input and to speed up both flexibility and ease of decisions. A tall order for a bureaucracy, I would think.

It Happens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reality Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And before anyone starts on how IB is
> > great, take a look at the stats. Except one
> > exception, ALL IB schools underperform the AP
> > schools. Those are the numbers on which parents
> > percieve schools and universities decide.
> >
> By what measure? Aren't both Robinson and
> Marshall IB schools whose graduates have SAT
> scores in the top 50% of Fairfax high schools?
> And South Lakes' 2007 SAT scores are higher than
> Herndon's and close to Westield's. Is there some
> other measure of achievement on which you're
> placing greater emphasis from a college admissions
> perspective?
>
> As a practical matter, how many college students
> are looking for AP credits in order to, say,
> graduate in three years or immediately place into
> intermediate or higher-level courses in college?
> I had enough AP credits from high school to
> graduate from a top East Coast university in three
> years, but stayed all four years in order to take
> more courses and enjoy the college experience.
> Has the world changed that much over the past 20
> years?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent

South Lakes Alum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It Happens Wrote:
> > Has the world changed that much over the past
> 20
> > years?
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent

South Lakes Alum - We were the lucky ones.

To South Lakes Alum,
Why do SL people feel the need to label people who think or act differently than their view of the world? What makes you think there's only your way of raising someone else's children?

South Lakes Alum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum- Not trying to dive into all the details
> and philosophical debates that have already been
> hashed out here in excruciating detail. Just want
> to offer my inside experience as a graduate of
> South Lakes- an insight that I'm guessing few (if
> any) of the parents here have personally. I
> simply want to reassure them that they will be
> just fine. Please keep an open mind and a
> positive outlook. If you set yourself up for
> disappointment at South Lakes you might just end
> up carrying out a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a
> child truly has what it takes to be successful it
> won't matter what school they went to or what AP /
> IB program they completed.

Let me explain it to you. There are a lot of people who moved to Fairfax from other parts of the country in recent years. Part of the reason they did so was because they had heard the county not only had good jobs, but also had good schools and good local government. What they found was that the schools were good but perhaps overrated, and that the county school board, rather than make decisions that were demonstrably in the best interests of the students and their families, repeatedly cut deals with one another and engaged in back-slapping that would make politicians in New Jersey or Louisiana blush. And it happened time and time again, except where the residents north of the county's Mason-Dixon line (Langley) were located.

So when it came to the redistricting, rather than do what was clearly in their best interests (get with the program and send their kids to SL with a cheery smile), they became bitter and clung to their old school districts, because they at least knew how to navigate the ropes at the old schools and actually had grown to like some of the teachers, administrators and other parents. And bitter people do litigate.

Sad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To South Lakes Alum,
> Why do SL people feel the need to label people who
> think or act differently than their view of the
> world? What makes you think there's only your way
> of raising someone else's children?

I only meant to respond to the question of what has changed in the last 20 years. That link is one possilbe explanation. Not sure what group of SL people I am being put in but please let me apologize if you were offended.

No problem. Glad to talk to a reasonable mind. I guess in the end, people just have to agree upon the disagreement, without denoucing each other.

To South Lakes Alum,

Just curious, can you tell me in which year you were graduted from South Lakes?